Transcript

So hopefully the webcast will be live and you will signal to me, Mr Kelly, I'm sure, when that's the case. So, formally, welcome to this meeting. My name is Councillor Sheila Boswell and I'm the chair of the Children's Committee here at Wandsworth Council. We have just formalities to go through, so I am going to call the names in alphabetical order of the members of this committee and I ask you to respond. Councillor Apps. Present. Hello. Councillor Burchill. Good evening. Councillor Corner. Good evening. Councillor Graveli. Good evening. Excuse me. Councillor Davies. Good evening. Councillor Lee. Hello. Good evening. Councillor McLeod. Good evening. Councillor Osbourne. Good evening everybody. Councillor Owens. Good evening everybody too. We also have in attendance the cabinet member for children, Councillor Kate Stock. Good evening everybody. I'd like to welcome our co-opted members. This committee is unusual that we have co-opted members. Ms Nabila Haroon, Mr. Anthony Langdon has sent his apologies, Mrs. Irene Wolfson-Holm, Southwark Diocese of Board of Education, Church of England and Ms. Angela Cox, Catholic, Southwark Archdiocese. Good evening. Good evening and welcome Angela, I think it's the first time you've attended committee, in person or the second. Now again, unusually, we also have present Ms Barbara Cuthbert. Barbara is the Vice Chair of Governors of Christ Church School, Church of England Primary School. Good evening. We have Ms Ros Cordner, Diocese Director of Education, Southwark Diocese Board of Education. Good evening. We have Ms Pia Longman, Assistant Director of Education, Southwark Diocese Board of Education. Good evening everyone. And Rosemary Davison, she is the Chair of Governors of Christ Church School, who is joining us virtually. Good evening. Good evening. As you can see, we have several offices present and they will introduce themselves when they address the committee. So welcome everyone to this special meeting of this committee. It's been convened to consider one paper from the governors on their proposal and recommendation to close Christ Church, Church of England Primary School. Now it's an unusual format for us this evening because the diocese representatives will be presenting the paper because they are the proposers. We would normally have officers presenting a paper if anybody's watching outside the room. So this is unusual for us, but the diocese, who are the proposers, will be presenting this paper. And there's also something else that's unusual in that this special meeting is taking place in a pre-election period. And normally in a pre-election period, these meetings are not held. It's what used to be called perder. And for that reason, no reference should be made at all to the Mayor of London and to the Greater London Assembly. We obviously will have our political discussions as we normally would, but those references must not be made, and that is with advice from democratic services. Now if there's an amendment put before us this evening, an amendment on the recommendation, voting will take place on the amendment first, on the amendment first. If the amendment falls, we will proceed to vote on recommendations in the paper. So we move to agenda items. Apologies. We have apologies for absence from Anthony Langdon, parent governor. Any others? That's it. Thank you. And I now move to declarations of interest. Are there any declarations of either pecuniary or other registrable or non-registrable interests? Ms. Wilson-Holm? So as you'll see, I'm a member of the Dowserson Board of Education for Southwark for the Church of England. I also feel, I don't think this is actually a registrable interest, but I feel that the committee should know that I was a governor of Christchurch School until January 2022, and indeed I was chair for a little time before that. But I have had no involvement whatsoever in the discussions leading to this particular paper. Thank you very much, Ms. Wilson-Holm, for sharing that with us at this point. When it comes to voting, co-opted members, so our parent governor and our diocese representatives, you may vote on this paper that we have before us tonight, this one paper on the agenda, because it relates to an education function. You will know normally if it's on children's services, you don't vote, but you do vote. You can vote on this paper this evening. So we come to the minutes. Are the minutes of the previous meeting held on the 8th of February agreed? Yep, thank you. So we move to Item 3, which is the proposal to close Christchurch Church of England Primary School, paper number 24-136, pages 3-54 in the pack, if anyone's in the public gallery or watching or following on hard copy. So first, I want to say, oh, and I want to welcome the governors and representatives from the Southwark Diocese Board of Education for attending today's committee. We recognize, I recognize that this has not been an easy decision to make or a process to undertake, but it has been taken in the interest of their school community, your school community that you represent. I would like to take a moment on behalf of the committee to praise the quality of teaching, learning, and support provided to pupils and their families over many years at Christchurch School. I actually looked up this afternoon the date the school opened, and it was 1866, so there's been a school on that site for a very, very long time. I would like to pay tribute to the head teacher, the leadership team, and to all the staff at the school who have continued to put the children at the heart of decision making and conversations remaining focused all the time on providing high quality education. And reading through the papers, I was so impressed to read about the so many innovative initiatives that you have at the school, lots of extracurricular activities, the secret garden, the gardening that the children do, the visits that so many children wouldn't get to do without the school providing them, so really very, very impressive. Finally, I wanted to thank the officers of the council for working alongside our schools and dioceses to ensure that our children and families, because it is children and families who are affected by this proposal most and staff, that they've been supported throughout this journey. Now I'm going to hand over at this point to Roz and Pierre to provide an introduction from the Southwark Diocese Board of Education before Rosemary, who is joining us online, will actually present the paper and the proposals. And then I will hand back to Roz and Pierre for some closing remarks before we go to questions. So Roz and Pierre. Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the committee for welcoming us to this meeting today. As you can understand, it's with a very heavy heart that all parties from the school sit here, but as Director of Education, just to emphasize that none of us come into education to close schools. I cannot impress upon you the time, the passion, the thought, the care, the consideration that governors and school leaders have put into being at this table today. The absolute last option for this governing body was to articulate that the school would not be viable in the long term. And I think it's really important that everybody understands that and appreciates the time and energy that has gone into looking for every other possible solution. Closing a school is not something that any of us take lightly. And as you rightly say, the school has been serving the community for a long time. And I think it is with great courage that governors have come together to say what is best for this school community and what is best for our children, and have spent the last six months really taking every consideration forward. This is not a proposal from the Board of Education. It is the proposal of the governors, and I think we need to recognize that and commend governors for what they've done. The paper is very clearly set out, but I think it's very important that you also hear from the chair, Rosemary, who is currently on holiday and has made herself available to present this evening, such is the passion and commitment. I think it's also crucial that we recognize the support that as a school and a diocese we have had from officers in the room throughout this process, but also particularly want to say the work that governors have done has been huge. I recognize that in handing over to Rosemary, we have a short window to articulate the process, and then we will welcome questions after the introduction. So I'll hand over to Rosemary at this point. Thank you, Rose, and thank you, Chair, for this time. It's no small thing to say that this is probably the saddest of all days for myself and my fellow governors and leadership of Christ Church, Church of England Primary School. No one is here because they want to close the school, and we're not here because there is an issue with the school's leadership. They've been blessed with sterling leadership above and beyond. The basic fact here is that the impact of falling school roles has made a huge dent in our school this year, and governors weren't able to set a balanced budget with fewer pupils joining school in reception than they were leaving at the end of year six. The school has served the community for several decades, and has done so passionately throughout its existence, and it is with the heaviest of hearts that conversation began in the autumn term with the Southwark and local authority raising concerns about the long-term viability of Christ Church Primary School. As you can see from the proposal, our ambition is to ensure that the pupils receive the highest quality education, and the governors and I feel that children will thrive in their new schools who will be able to adequately provide the support and educational development they deserve and indeed must have. Our greatest concern from the start of this journey was how to meet the needs of our pupils, recognizing the disruption to the whole school community, but in particular, our most vulnerable families, those with children with SEND, and we recognize that with falling roles, a further reorganization of classes would reduce the broad curriculum we could offer with a reduced staff team, and we could see that rather than enhancing the offer to SEND pupils, the offer would now be limited. The financial details and the pupil numbers are laid out in the papers before you, and you will see that up until now, we have maintained a healthy financial balance under the sterling leadership of my co-chair, Barbara Cuthbert, and this is the first time in the history of the school that governors were unable to meet a balanced budget with a further debt predicted through to 2025/26 of £446,508, and we have worked really closely with the diocese and local authority to consider options for Christchurch, and you will see this on page 8. None of them secured funding or the staff to deliver education well. The time to consider closure came when we realized really with a heavy heart that our core purpose to deliver the best high quality education for our pupils and our community was no longer possible. In a meeting with staff and parents and families to discuss the proposal at both informal and informal stages, we heard and listened to their responses, and on many occasions just held the silence while tears were shed. In the meetings and via the portal that was set up, whilst many suggestions were put forward, many had already been tried and were not viable. We received a petition that whilst outside the official channels for communication we received and found that many similar ideas for saving the school. However, despite many passionate responses and pleas to find a way to continue, no option provided what we needed which is more children on our school role. So the governors urged the council to consider this proposal as the best option for the children in the community to ensure the best next step. In coming to this decision, recognize the huge burden this has been for all involved and express thanks, heartfelt thanks to Collette Morris, headteacher, Bernie as deputy headteacher in ensuring Christchurch adapts during this period of change to ensure that pupils are equipped to manage the changes ahead. The brief reference to the process taken and I suppose I hand back to the chair for questions. >> Rose, thank you very much indeed. I think to hand back not to the chair of this committee but to the chair of governments, but I just wanted to thank Rosemary at this point for the passion and the clarity with which she has spoken. Over to you. >> Thank you, Councillor and thank you, Rosemary, I think we can hear the passion and emotion in your voice. I would also like to take this opportunity to say that whilst this paper is around considering the closure, I'm acutely aware that there will be some interest and curiosity around what happens to the building and the assets of the school and just to say that whilst this isn't a subject for discussion at this particular meeting because it's not around the decision making here, but to say that the purpose of one of our roles as a Board of Education is to ensure that the building is used for educational purposes in the first instance and that we are all committed to ensuring that the buildings and assets are managed appropriately at the appropriate time once the final decision has been made. I'm going to hand over to Pierre just for a slightly broader London view before we hand back to you, Chair. Thank you.

Thanks, Rose. Evening, everyone. Just want to highlight that what we know about the situation that Christchurch has faced and the challenges that Christchurch has faced over the last few years unfortunately are not unique to the school. We certainly know and I'm sure that everyone has heard about falling rolls. We are seeing them across Wandsworth, but in the 12 boroughs that we cover as a Board of Education, just in the last 12 months we've seen a drop of nearly 2,500 pupils in our 103 schools. So I think it's important to take that into context when governors are talking about the decision they made. There didn't seem to be a chance that numbers would increase. It wasn't about the school and improving the school and therefore attracting greater numbers. It is obviously a Wandsworth issue, a London issue, and for us we are seeing almost every school that is affected by falling pupil rolls, and at some point this situation got so low that the school was no longer viable. >> Thank you very much, Pierre, and again both of you for the way that you are managing this, because I know as Rosemarie has said, it is a very sad day. So we are going to move to the part of the agenda where the members of the committee will ask questions. And I have thought for clarity that we would ask them under headings so that we don't keep revisiting the same question or saying it in a different way. So the headings that I have is that the first question will be asked under rationale, the why rationale. The second heading, consultation. I'm sure there will be a lot of questions around the consultation, so we will take questions on that. And then the third, that will be impact. So under impact we will be thinking about the children, so important. The staff, equally important, and the site, and you have covered some of that already just now. So impact, children, staff, site. And then we will end with a set of questions. Members might like to think, Councillors, around legacy and learning, that part of it. Legacy and learning. So can I ask for questions under the heading of rationale? Any questions under the heading of rationale? Councillor Osborne. Yes, if I may, I do have a question, but if I may, the chair has already, I think, summed up the view of the committee very well on our approach to this. But if I may just briefly to say that one of the things that comes out of the paper when you read through the rationale and the decision-making is the compassion and the courage and the commitment to high quality education for every child that has gone into the decision-making and the analysis of the situation. And that is very clear and I think has to be stated here at the committee. But I think my question is, when you were looking at the rationale for this decision, how far did a planned transition for the children come into your deliberations and your discussions? I think that was one of the first points for discussion from the governors was if we are in this position and we have to consider closure, how do we manage the support for the pupils and the families of this community? And I think one of the first responses from the head was that's what we do all the time. We prepare our children for change and if that's what has to happen, then Christchurch will make sure that those children are ready for transition and we will do that well. And they will go off confidently whether they leave now or whether they leave at the end of the year because that's just part of the Christchurch hallmark. The LA stepped in straightaway to say we recognize that change causes disruption and lessons learned from previous closure was that actually teeing up the support and EP support, educational psychologist support, they attended the next meeting that we had with the school governors and have already been active in the school. I would say it was one of the first priorities was how do we make this work. Thank you. Any other questions on rationale? Lisa, did you want to come back and then I'll go to Councillor? Yeah, just to say as well, I mean, obviously we have done that piece of work and I know that our principal EP is working with the head in terms of the support for staff actually because obviously they are the people that know the children best and are going to be working with the children. So it's really important that we create safe spaces, reflective spaces for those teachers to support children. The other thing is it doesn't just stop there when children move on and we have already had children that have moved from the school and the psychology service has linked in with those schools that have received the children to touch base. How have they settled? Is there any support that the receiving school needs to ensure that those children, you know, the transition is smooth, but actually then they flourish, progress when they're in their new environment. So it's a joint approach really in terms of the school where the children currently are, but also the school that's going to be receiving the children. Thank you, Mr. Manaroli. Councillor Corner. Thank you, Chair. And I'd just like to share, just say that, you know, my thoughts are similar to Councillor Osborne's. He just articulated what we heard from the Chair of Governors as well, Rosemary. As has already been said, no one wants to close schools around this table. We want the opposite. We want, you know, thriving schools. But the rationale within this paper and they set out so eloquently by the governors is clear that this, you know, this difficult decision does seem reasonable given the fall in pupil numbers and funding and challenges. So I'd just like to thank the governors and the diocese for putting this proposal together and bringing it to us today and for the work that they've done. I do have a question related to costs and the forecasts that were put together for this. So on page 18, we can see that where it says where funding shortfalls were forecast, the school was proactive in reducing costs, merging classes where possible, increasing income. Could we just, given that we know that the challenge of falling pupil numbers is not by any means limited to Christchurch, something that all schools in London are facing, could you just go into how successful that work was to explore the cost reductions in income generation through other means? I think it's fair to say that we had anticipated from several years ago that there was a chance we could reach this point. So we had undertaken restructuring, as we say. We had taken the work decision then to have some redundancies in the school. And at all our forecast points, which the help of Michael's processes, we were looking all the time about whether we could save funds, whether we could cut costs. And we were taking those decisions. So as Rosemary commented, we still are at the point that we have funds. It's only this year that we can't fund our costs any further. But it was a process of continual looking, continual adaptation, whilst at the same time, and Rosemary brought this out, saying we will not compromise on the quality of education that we offer. And we will not, for the sake of finance, compromise what we were offering to send pupils. So it was a continual process of adaptation, I would say. Thank you very much. Any more questions on rationale? Is this a supplementary? Thank you. And it really comes out very clearly in the paper that quality of education and protecting children's education was absolutely at the forefront of your thoughts. So that is very clear to me. So thank you for your answer. In terms of a very quick follow up. Has the diocese explored having schools work together to reduce fixed costs and overheads across the schools that you are responsible for? Might be a question for the diocese, wider diocese rather than the governors. And if so, how successful has that been to date? Because that would be understanding learnings from that type of work would be really interesting for thinking about how we manage other schools in the borough as well. As far as an approach from the diocese partnerships and finding cost savings by bringing schools together is something that we advocate for. And we do a lot across across our schools. I think in the situation of Christ Church, unfortunately, when you do partner with schools and move into a situation where there is staff sharing, resource sharing, it takes, you know, at least a sort of year and a half to two years to start to see those cost savings come down. For Christ Church, it had gotten to a point where actually to broker that partnership was not possible. I think the pupil numbers had become so low that even staff sharing across schools wasn't going to have the impact that it needed to have. I think moving forward, you know, partnering with schools, having strong models where staff are shared, resources are shared is definitely a way to stabilize schools as pupil numbers drop. And I think that it's something that we will be working towards with all our schools to have a stronger school system moving forward. Councillor Owens, I saw your hand up. Then, Councillor McLeod, did I see you? No. Councillor Owens. Thank you, Councillor Burchell. One of the things I didn't spot in the report was your recent offset. And I was just wondering if that had had anything in terms of the rationale, et cetera, et cetera, and obviously, pupil role. I'm grateful for thoughts. That was not part of our decision making. And it came after the issues that we're talking about tonight. So it wasn't it wouldn't help if it wasn't part of the decision making. I'd just like to, if I could, just add a follow up response because I realize I didn't comment on the fundraising aspect. And I just would like to reply on that, that this school and particularly our head teacher has been massively impressive in being able to raise funds and to get grants for the school to enhance the curriculum offer and to broaden that experience that our children have to fill in the gaps. But my comment would be that those types of funds tend to be given for specific purposes. So income comes in for a specific cost. They are not generally given to day to day running costs for the school. So whereas during the consultation parents were very passionate about about raising funds and the possibility of that, that was our response that not given for day to day. And also are not funds that you can use long term to support the structures of schools. They tend to be either one off or time limited. Yes, Mr. Halleck, do you want to come in for explanation? You sometimes find that there isn't as much rigor. This is exceptionally, it is really the last resort. I heard that from Mr. Halleck, our director of finance. So now questions around the consultation. I think we've probably got quite a few questions on that. I can see Councillor Day. Yeah, thank you for this paper. And I just wanted to say that, you know, I've had experience as a former teacher in schools with falling roles and, you know, identify with the challenges that it faced on the day to day provision of teaching, but also that sense of community and the financial sustainability. You know, we want families in Wandsworth and we do not want the schools to close, but we also want the quality of education for all children. So, yeah, my question really is about the consultation. So I can see in the legal implications, paragraph 72, that the council, we need to sort of check that the statutory requirements to consult has happened. From what I see, that certainly has happened and best practices for the suite as well in terms of consulting with politicians. You know, I do know that there's a small number involved in the consultation, so I'd be interested to hear, you know, how far you think the consultation went. Could it have been done better in any ways? Thank you. Thank you. The pre-publication consultation was actually, you know, the governor spent a lot of time meeting with the community, meeting with parents, consulting with staff. There was regular meetings where actually people did have a chance, the community had a chance to share ideas, bring forward any concerns, issues, and we were, throughout that period, updating with new information, taking on board any suggestions and sort of communicating that back. There were many more responses and you can see that in the paper in the first consultation. I think that there was a much higher engagement and there was definitely, you know, from parents, of course, there was concerns about it and there was a big push to keep the school open. As we got through to the end of the first consultation, I think that the communication from governors to the whole community had been very, very good and very transparent and what happened through that period is there was really an acceptance that the school and the governors had done everything that they could do. They had explored every single option. This hadn't been a decision that was snap decision that had been made over a few months. We were able to communicate how long and agonizing that had been and I think as we got to the second meetings with families, parents, community, and staff, there did seem to be an understanding of the predicament the school was in. I think people had accepted that everything had been done and so the engagement for the formal consultation with only the sort of 11 responses, it really just signaled that people understood, they accepted, they didn't like it, you know, nobody wanted to get to this stage and in other consultations that we have done in other boroughs with other schools, we've seen a very similar pattern where the second formal consultation has had a lot less responses, I think, and actually that goes a long way to commend the governors for their transparency with the community and to show that people, although it wasn't a decision they wanted, they did understand. Thank you. Councillor Cornyn, I think you had a question? Yes, thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask a question about the consultation and the petition that's referenced in paragraph 50. So when this committee last considered the closure of a school, perhaps some of us were surprised by the number of responses to the consultation and actually the same has occurred here with only 11 responses. But before that, in paragraph 50 it talks about this petition that many of us have heard about with over 3,000 signatures. Could I just ask, and it does detail in that paragraph about how you reviewed it and there were some question marks over whether every one of those signatures is valid and the extent to which respondents to that petition understand the detail of the proposal. But did you get formally presented the petition as governors? Did you meet with the people who started the petition and understand their concerns? What were those discussions like if they did take place? We certainly met with the instigators of the petition and in a separate meeting to the pre-consultation formal meetings that we had. So we met individually and there was a great deal of passion for saving the school. We were not aware initially of the intention to instigate the petition. And as is mentioned in that paragraph, because it didn't fall into the formal communication that had been set up, it wasn't something that we could feel that we could rely on. Although we recognized there was a lot of passion that had generated it, we didn't know where those signatures were coming from and therefore it was difficult to accept it as valid. But certainly we met with the people who instigated it. And were they people who were part of the school community, parents? They were parents. So they also attended the parent meetings and had a chance to make a formal presentation to that meeting. Thank you. Any more questions around the consultation for the diocese and councillors? I'm looking down this side because I think we've had three questions from Councillor Corner on the consultation and a follow-up as well. Should we move to impact? One question, Councillor Corner and then we'll move to impact where we'll be thinking about the impact on children, staff and also the site. Thank you. It's a very quick one on the consultation because so many people are consulted with but we only get 11 responses and that was the same with another issue that this committee considered. So in your view, is that because these concerns and explanation on the proposal was headed off earlier in the consultation, do you think there's more we can do as governors, as a local authority in order to spread the word of consultations and get a genuine view from the committee, from the community impacted? I think Pierre's right that the 11 that comes out in the paper was in the formal consultation. The pre-consultation had 47 responses which is quite a number. So there were a lot more. By the time it got to the formal consultation, there was, as Pierre has said, the general acceptance of the direction that this was going in. But I would say that I think Collette has commented as well that through the consultation, it became very clear that this school is very much loved by the current parents and by people who've been parents of children that attended in the past. And some of that isn't said every day. It sometimes takes a situation like this for particularly the staff and the head to hear that from parents. So it actually has a very good purpose in facilitating what we thought was out there but really came through strongly how much this school is loved. Thank you very much. I think that Rosemary, who is the chair of governors, has got her hand up behind me. Rosemary, did you want to contribute in response to that? Yes, chair, thank you. It was like a follow-on from what Barbara was saying. There was also a sense that when we got to the point of speaking to our community, parents and teachers, as she says, that we wouldn't have come to that point if it was something that maybe should have might happen, something in the future that is very serious. And I think that there were a number of people who really got that and felt, okay, this looks like something that's more likely going to happen than not. So in addition to a lot of the information that we gave, and we did go to a lot of lengths to make sure that we were clear and rational on how to go about it, translate it into different languages for people to understand, I think to my mind, it speaks to the quality of the community and the level of trust that we would not be going down this road unless it absolutely had to. And therefore, questions that the number of responses would be, oh, but maybe one other thing, but not necessarily in criticism or digging out the initial rationale in terms of what was put forward. So I wouldn't look at the 11 responses in a negative light. I would be more likely to say that we as governors and as diocese, we did due diligence and explained everything with as much detail as we possibly could to the parents and to the wider community. Thank you very much for clarifying that. And I think Ms. Fanaroli would like to come back. And then I have got Councillor Apps and then Councillor Davies. Yeah, I just wanted to commend governors, the diocese as well, because actually this is about the journey they brought their school community on. And I think, again, we recognize that the formal consultation responses were low. But from the pre-publication consultation, every single response from those parents was responded to through Q&A. And they were shared with parents. So every time a query, a comment came in, there was a response to it. And I think because of that engagement piece and because parents, staff were brought on that journey of understanding, that's why in the formal consultation, the responses were so low. Thank you. So Councillor Apps and then Councillor Davies. Thank you so much. It's good to hear about the clarity of the communication with the parents. And what I'm interested in just investigating a little bit further is about how the requirements of consultation, the formal requirements were balanced against allowing parents and other, all stakeholders involved to have an opportunity to express their views and kind of share their attitudes towards the closure of the school. And if you could just speak a little bit more about that, that would be great. Thank you. I think I'm not entirely sure exactly what the question is asking, but I think in terms of how the way we went about and the way the governors went about the consultation was not just via one means of response. You know, in the beginning, it was very much engagement through meetings, through conversations, getting the message out there that this is where the school was. It was very important to governors that anyone who wanted to respond had a chance to do that in a way that they felt comfortable doing that. So, you know, in the public meetings and the meetings at the school, we held them so that people had a chance to sort of speak in a public forum. We also met with parents individually when there were groups who actually didn't quite feel comfortable speaking in that sort of forum and bringing questions. We gave staff a chance to have one-to-ones and sessions when they felt that that was right for them, because we understand that actually sometimes when the message landed, it wasn't the right time to give views, to talk about concerns. There was also a means to respond via an online portal so that that was easily accessible through technology, through phones. There was written ways to respond and that was translated into as many, I don't think I've ever seen translations, into 12 languages. The translation service was busy that week. So, it was very important that governors felt every single person had a voice and that that voice was heard right the way through, right up until the end of, you know, the formal consultation. Thank you. Councillor Davies. Chair, if I might just ask a clarification. There's been twice reference to this consultation and another consultation about a school closure and I don't know who's best to answer this, but I don't think there has been another school closure in the last couple of years. Certainly there wasn't repurposing of the school, but I wonder whether maybe the cabinet member or the director would clarify for that for us. Thank you. Councillor Stott, cabinet member. Thank you and good evening everybody. It's been really humbling hearing the contributions from the governors and the diocese and hearing more about the journey to get to tonight and the decision and the journey that the school has been on. I thank everybody for the hard work that's gone into this and all the options that have clearly been explored to get to this point. As Councillor Davies said, there has been one previous consultation in relation to Broadwater Primary School. I understand actually the engagement for that was quite similar to the engagement for this, but in terms of statutory speaker, I think that was classed as a consultation, but just to reassure all members of the committee that school is being repurposed for education to be a specialist special school for our peoples with SEND and as the committee has heard, that's a really important provision for us to deliver in order to provide local places for children with SEND within their community. Thank you very much for that clarity, Councillor Stott, cabinet member. So we'll move to questions which come under impact. So this is impact on children staff and I've also got written down here the site, although I think that's probably been answered, so impact. Any questions on impact? Councillor Crivelli and then Councillor Burke. >> Good evening. Can I start by asking you, I appreciate that obviously you're aware of the anxiety that's caused for parents when they'll be considering alternative provision as they're obliged to move away from Christchurch school but in particular I wanted to ask about parents who have children who have SEND needs because I notice you've identified the fact there's five children with EHCPs and 16 with SEND needs. I just wanted to ask about the sort of assurance that you could give parents about the transition that's going to be made away from Christchurch to another school because obviously the transition itself is difficult, but it's obviously more difficult if you are a parent of a child who has SEND needs and it's not quite as easy to make that sort of seamless transition as it may be for other parents. I was just wondering if you could just talk a little bit about that and give us what assurance you can. I think Christchurch historically under its, very much under its Christian ethos has been a school that has made every effort to accommodate children whatever their particular need and therefore it was at the forefront of Governor's minds about how it would transition and whether there would be sufficient places and we have extensively questioned the local authority about it as I'm sure Adam and Deborah will attest. They have given us assurances that places are available, but we remain concerned until every child is placed and we do recognize that it potentially is proving difficult and we are grateful for any support that Deborah can give us. We have a wonderful SEND responsible teacher at our school and the support she is giving the children and supporting transition is magnificent and I would encourage any school that is potentially chosen by our parents or approached by our parents to liaise with Helen as much as they can to secure that transition. But it was top of our minds whether schools would be as receptive as Christchurch has traditionally been. I have Councillor Burchill next and then Councillor Lee, Councillor Aps and Councillor Owens. I didn't see you down there. Did you want to respond as well because it is such an important issue. It was just to say that obviously those five children with EHCPs, they were already known. Schools have been named already for those children so we have already named the provision for those to transition. We are obviously liaising as well. If they have siblings and obviously it is appropriate if they are in a special school that is slightly different but if they are going into a mainstream school we are making sure that obviously to make it easier for families that we consider placing those children in the same provisions so those are conversations that Deborah and Adam have had. I would say in Wandsworth our schools are highly inclusive. It is the approach that we take to education. So it is early intervention, early support, at the right time, right provision and that is the approach that we take. We have done a lot of work with our schools in terms of ordinarily available provision to make sure that they can meet the needs of children even if they don't have a plan. So I am confident that wherever the children from Christchurch decision is taken to close, wherever they move to they will be embraced, they will be supported and Deborah and our inclusion team in Wandsworth will work with those schools to make sure those children have the support they need. Thank you very much, that is very reassuring. Councillor Burchill is next. Thank you very much, Chair. I was going to ask you about the same children as well so I am really pleased to hear that you have found places for them and I hope that they will be the most appropriate places for them. So all of the children will have a school place in September, there is no doubt about that. What about the staff, because it must be so traumatic for them to have their employment curtailed at the end of the summer term. What are we doing to help them? I can comment on that. The staff for governors of course were a huge concern and I think it was especially concerning because we gave a message to staff right before Christmas and that was something that governors found very difficult. The benefit of being a school within the diocese is we are already having conversations with staff about redeployment options. We know that there are many, many positions out there. We know that not only in our own schools but certainly across Wandsworth and wider there is a recruitment crisis. The staff are very skilled, they have transferable skills and we have made sure there is every opportunity for those staff to meet with HR representatives from both the diocese and from Wandsworth. They have had opportunities to have one-to-one. The governors have also put in place support for them where they can have help writing CVs to go through options for them moving on to make sure they are supported every step of the way. At the diocese we have already been in conversation with some of the members of staff to find them suitable positions in our other schools. We will continue and governors will continue to work with every member of staff to make sure that they move on to where they want to go and that transition is right for them. Some will choose to move on before the end perhaps, others if redundancy is right for them, then that's something we will make sure we support and work with individual staff. Thank you. I've got Councillor Lee next and then Councillor Apps and Councillor Owen and I can see Rosemary, the chair of the governors at the school, that you want to come in as well and then I have Councillor Davies. So Councillor Lee on the questions around impact on children's staff and site. Yeah, so I wanted to ask if this decision is made to close the school, how will the children be told and we talked a little bit earlier about transitions and how we've already had a few children who've been moved to different schools and how we've helped with their transition and making sure that they're settling in but obviously there's a difference between sort of the few that have already moved and supporting 95 children. So yeah, how will we be able to support those children in their new schools? Thank you. I think right back when the decision was made to go to this stage of consultation, there was a lot of work that went into how do we tell the pupils, how do we tell the families and when do we tell the staff and as Pierre pointed out, staff were told just before the start of the Christmas break and then after the meetings with families at the beginning of term, children were told as part of a planned process by the school leaders and I think Colette and Bernie as head and deputies spent a lot of time crafting how that would be, how that message would be delivered and then also being well supported by the educational psychology service to make sure that the messaging was right and wasn't just left in limbo, there was follow-up work that came after that. Can I just add to that just for clarification, there's currently 43 pupils that are left at the school that are reception to year five so actually that does make that transition more manageable in terms of the numbers. Thank you. Councillor Apps, yes, I'm sort of mindful of getting through so I think Councillor Apps had a question next and then Councillor Owens and then we'll go to Rosmarie. Thank you. I'm mindful also of the family units. We've talked about the impact on the children but there's obviously also potentially a financial impact on the families themselves. One of our early initiatives was as a council was to support new pupils with uniforms and clearly now all children are going to be going to new schools so they're all going to be facing this. So I wanted to ask the cabinet member about there is a discussion on page 20 on paragraph 65 that says the council is committed to providing financial support to families towards the cost of new school uniforms. Obviously families will be anxious about some of the costs they're facing. Can you clarify how much that cost will the council support? Thank you. Thank you, thank you, Councillor, for the question. Definitely very mindful of the current cost of living crisis and how that's impacting families and across the board. As a council we've been thinking about school uniform support scheme for children with free school meals entering reception in year 6. In relation to pupils that moved out of school, in relation to Broadwater Primary School, we extended that offer for all pupils of that school in the same way as they moved on to support families recognising this is an additional cost that they weren't expecting to have to face. So we have committed to doing this in this situation as well and the figures in relation to each pupil is a hundred pounds per pupil for moving on to their next school. A hundred pound voucher provided online I think. Sorry, sorry, those online might not have heard that. Mr Hallock was confirming that we'll always stand ready to support families if that voucher isn't sufficient. Councillor Owens. Thank you. Just a little bit more on the impact on children and I'm also interested in the site as well. Obviously there's a list of schools there where obviously there are places and there seems to be quite a lot of places in Wandsworth at the moment. I mean it said something like 27% vacancy rate which is absolutely astonishing. I mean I don't know if that's the same across all the London boroughs but I would imagine it's not dissimilar. I was just wondering because some of us here have children and certainly some of those schools listed as well, how it works. When we had the repurposing of Broadwater an awful lot of children went to the school that they go to which was Earlsville Primary as I understand. And I was just wondering of that list of schools and it's unfortunate for you because some of them were academies that started off with 600 places and expanded to now Belleville has a 150 year intake which obviously didn't help you and with your sort of offset which obviously requires improving in November, are they moving towards a particular school or are they going across the river to the Christchurch in Chelsea? Thank you. I don't think they're going to the Christchurch in Chelsea. I think most of the families it was about locality. I think that families didn't want to have the additional travel. I think it was very important to them that their days were not completely changed in terms of how long they were travelling to and from school. There were definitely a few on that list that had more vacancies than others and I think what came out and what generally does come out is families, they want siblings to go together and friendship groups also wanted to go to schools together and there is one school on that list that had a lot of vacancies. I think so many that it could probably have taken every child in Christchurch so I think that many families would choose to go there. It was very close in proximity. Some have chosen to go to the closest Church of England school but that was a mile away so it is an additional journey. Thank you very much. Councillor Owens, you don't seem to know the political history of your party because that was the party that you represent, the policy on expanding and bringing in free schools and academies and I was one of the Councillors at the time who spoke about the fact that it would impact on schools and we are sitting here now in this very sad situation in part, not wholly, but in part because of that policy that was not thought through so I find it quite difficult that you are bringing that up and telling these hard-working people that it was tough on them that the academies have taken some of the pupils. Yes, you may come back. I am fully aware of the academy situation. I chaired the school and I was governor for over a decade which was outstanding in Wandsworth but also I was bringing it up because it is a reality now. It was not to say I understand the policy because my children attended one of those schools. It was to point out that perhaps it wasn't even just the expansion of the academy, it was also the schools not just on new sites but still being allowed to have more classes and that is ongoing. That is just a reality at the moment when we have a 27% gap. Not free schools and academies. Rosmarie, you have been waiting patiently online. I am so sorry. You wanted to come in. Yes, thank you, Chair. I wanted to also state that in terms of supporting children in new schools and settling them and supporting that, a lot of work was put into supporting the parents of those children because very often children will pick up anxieties from their parents and a lot of work went into taking time to speak to parents, reassuring them, advocating for them where things may seem to have been maybe not clear or slightly stalled. So in our approach in terms of supporting not just the children but the staff and the parents, we took a total 360 view and that is how we approached every aspect of this journey for Christchurch School. Thank you, Rosmarie again on that very important issue of children with SEND. I have now got Councillor Davies and then Councillor Korna and then Councillor Osborne and then we may move to the fourth heading. Yes, thanks for the reminder about the effects of academies and free schools but also we have got to remember about Brexit and the cost of living crisis and the government's role there. So back to the point of this committee, it is so important. Yes, new schools, we all know it is daunting, especially if you are not going with your friendship group. We know that mental health can decline for some people at times of transition. Then we have got the year 5 who are going to go through a change and then another change. So it is very good to hear about the Council committing to support with uniforms there but I was wondering also whether the Council could aid transition and the inclusion in the new school with enrichment activities which might be about school day trips or even a residential trip. If people listening didn't hear that or anyone in the room, that was Mr Hallock saying yes, we will support that definitely. Thank you, thank you very much. It was also to say those sorts of things happen in the schools they are going to be moving into. There will be extracurricular activities and actually receiving more children brings with it more funding which will then create more chance for these opportunities. I think sometimes we also say that we preempt what is going to happen for children. I have already seen from the Broadwater closure those children have settled extremely well. Our schools are fantastic at receiving children. They do it all the time. That is part of what they do. That is a part of welcoming new children into their environment. We are a bar of sanctuary. We have taken children in from the Ukraine. They have settled amazingly into our schools. Our staff know how to do that exceptionally well and I think sometimes we worry for children but they are resilient and they are good at coping and as long as we wrap the support around them and make sure those that are struggling have what they need, then I have every confidence that any receiving school will embed that, will nurture and will provide them with those opportunities. Thank you, Mr Fanaroli. That is very reassuring. I know on a school visit to Honeywell I was so impressed. There was a Ukrainian child refugee family who had arrived on the Friday and the school visit was on Monday and he was in Honeywell school with one-to-one and beginning to settle. So yeah, it is outstanding the work that is done and it is really reassuring that these children will go to that level of support. Councillor Cornyn, I have now. Thanks and thank you to Councillor Aps for asking the question I wanted to ask on uniforms. On the site matter, we have heard and thank you for your assurance that you will look to use the site for educational purposes. Do you know when we will be able to hear more about the plans for the site and could you give us a bit more of an update if there is one available on the plans for the site? So at this point I think it is fair to say that is something that we will consider once a final decision has been made at this meeting and then there is a piece of work for us to do around site ownership and I know there are different parcels of land across the actual school site itself including the gardens and that will be a separate piece of work for us as a diocese to begin once we know what the outcome is. Councillor Osbourne. Yes, thank you for that answer and I welcome it. I think that is exactly the way to look at that kind of question but I am interested in the question as well and I wonder if I can approach it in a slightly different way. Ms Longman was very eloquent at the beginning of the meeting about how there is a London-wide phenomenon here so I am wondering if you, my guess is that there are at least one or two other occasions when the diocese have been through this heartbreaking process. Looking at those, can you give us at least some ideas, some examples of the kind of things that would be appropriate for the building and the site in question? Is that a reasonable way of putting a similar question? Thank you. I think in two other boroughs where schools have closed over the last eight years the starting point for those conversations is working with the local authority to see what other educational needs there are for a particular site. So that has been a decant site in one borough while some improvement works were being made at another site. It has been a home for people referral units, alternative provision in Croydon and that was a temporary arrangement which is still ongoing now and then a third example was exploring how the site could be used for education and then realizing there wasn't a use for education and then looking down to see what community use is there in the first instance and say how can we use the building for the local community and actually we've got a school that closed in 2021 is actually being used by Community Arts Project and that's a five year lease and the hope is that over time it would come back into educational stock. Thank you, that is very reassuring and I know a lot of people watching as well will be very interested to hear that answer and that response. So we move on to the final heading which is legacy and learning questions under that heading. Legacy and learning, do I have any questions? Councillor Lea. Yeah I think we all know, so I've worked with children as a speech and language therapist for the NHS and I know that endings, the ending of our therapy blocks or goodbyes are really important for children and I wanted to ask whether there would be the opportunity for a type of celebration and in some way that we would be able to mark the sort of school's history and support the children with the ending and the goodbye at the end of the academic year. I think we didn't want to too much anticipate the decision tonight and preempt but we have given some thought already to exactly what you are describing and I know Colette has already secured some funding for workshops for the children to capture memories and particularly workshops with our, what I like to think of our resident author who's been working with the school for a number of years and I think Colette's plans are that each of the children will, artwork and poems and their thoughts will go into a book that each child will have. We will be very keen to celebrate all the achievements of this school particularly through its Christian ethos and we will have already thoughts about planning a celebration, a Eucharist for that purpose and hopefully performance of some of those poems on that day too. The governors have earmarked their May meeting to, if the decision is made, to start planning in more detail those celebrations but definitely we must and we will celebrate all this school has been. Thank you very much. It's so important isn't it and it's so important for the children as well to have that ending and closing if that is the decision this evening. Unless there's any further questions on legacy and learning I think we can move to a decision now. Councillor Cornell. Thank you chair and I'd like to just give some thoughts and perhaps get views from those proposing this and I'd just like to thank you again for coming to the meeting and it's a very tough process that you've been through and but I must say that from what is set out in the paper it does seem that this is the only viable option to safeguard education and do the best for children so that's certainly our view. I do encourage you to do some work to understand how that building can be best put to use for educational purposes in the future and really look forward to hearing the proposals on that. And finally I do think there is a piece of work we need to do more widely across Wandsworth to get to help schools and support schools to work together to reduce their costs where possible. I know there are some excellent case studies where this has been done across the country and we need to understand that. It won't always be possible and this is a huge challenge that schools are facing locally to deal with falling pupil numbers but where things can be done they should be done now rather than having more schools sadly have to go through this process of considering closure but thanks again to those who have come to the committee this evening and presented. We really appreciate it and we understand the position you're in and thank you for the work you've done. Excuse me I'm losing my voice. Thank you so much for that Councillor Corner. So we can move to decision. So that is the recommendation. It's on page 2 of 22 if we all want to look at that at paragraph 2 and it is the executive is recommended to approve the discontinuance closure of Critis Church School with effect from the 31st of August 2024. Does the committee agree? Agreed. Unanimous agreement. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you everybody for attending this special meeting and aside occasion as it is I can see that great care has been taken by all involved for the staff and most importantly the children of this school. Thank you. [Applause] [Recess] [Recess]