Transcript

This meeting will be webcast live to the internet and may be recorded by any member of the public or press present. If anyone wishes to avoid being filmed, please let the clerk know immediately. For anyone speaking at the meeting, it's important to speak closely to the microphone so viewers of the webcast and others in the room can hear you. If you have a mobile phone or other device, please turn it onto silent and move it away from the microphone as it may affect the audio system and distract speakers. Around the room are exit signs, should the fire alarm sound during the meeting, please make your way to the nearest and safest exit. So we go on to agenda item two, apologies and substitutes. Katie. Thank you, Chair. We've received apologies from Mr Webb and we have no substitutes present. Thank you. Agenda item three is declarations of interest. Are there any declarations of interest from members today? No, thank you. Agenda item four, minutes of the meeting held on the 19th of March 2024, that's pages one to six, are members happy to agree that these are a correct record? Agreed, thank you. Agenda item five, this is the update on external audit governance review and today we have been Watts and Catherine, sorry, State, isn't it? Catherine State, who is from Grant Salton, who will, I'm not sure who's going to give the presentation, but Ben. Lovely, thank you, Chairman, and thank you, members. So this is a bit of an update, some members will recall when we took the annual governance statement through. We touched on some of the issues and how they were going to be taken forward. We also had a conversation specifically at committee, if we move to the next slide, please. So effectively, just to refresh on the purpose of the governance review, the Council and Grant Thornton felt it appropriate to look at some of the arrangements that we had and a report with recommendations was brought forward. It came to the committee in the autumn of last year. Catherine State, who was the author of that report, unfortunately, couldn't be with us that day. So we have an opportunity now to formally say thank you to Catherine for her report. For those of you that don't know, Catherine is a professor in governance and a range of other public policy issues that made her ideally placed to be able to comment on us as a local authority in the improvements, the purpose that we needed to have, the strategies and the behaviours that we'd need to adopt, and we were very fortunate to have her involvement with us as an organisation. This is a little bit of an update on some of the – you know, it's a little bit like when you go to a supermarket and you said we did. So today is a bit of a use said we did. It isn't yet completed, so the annual governance statement recognises that there are a range of activities that are going to need continuation. So this is where we are now rather than where we will be in the future and it is a journey from the starting point now and a little bit of an explanation of where we go from here. If we could do the next slide, please. Because before the last committee meeting had a presentation in relation to the GRIP, the governance recommendations improvement plan that we're pulling together in the team site that we're putting together for members as well, and members will recall that that's not just going to cover off the recommendations from Catherine's report, but also the recommendations from internal audit reports, external audit reports, and that's going to be the mechanism and the annual governance statements as well, and that's going to be the mechanism by which members of this committee will be able to regularly keep track on not just the outcomes from this review. It was also something that was picked up by Catherine in her work as well about members retaining – of this committee in particular, retaining a focus on the things that were important and were key and those recommendations were central to that. Outside the meeting I've had a bit of a conversation with Catherine just to show her some of the documents and the tools that we've put in place since last time, and that's all fully going live, you know, over the next few weeks following the presentations that we've done for members. Next slide, please. So some of those recommendations, so the consideration of the abolishing of cabinet committees and the consideration of having an opposition chair of scrutiny, the Council at its meeting earlier in the year took a decision to create a governance working party, and that governance working party is currently having some very detailed conversations about what the future of those cabinet committees and what those purposes – the purposes of them might well be. The consideration of the opposition chair of scrutiny is something that is going to require a vote at county council and members will have to have a conversation about that. The governance working party is establishing, if that were to be the view of the council, how would that be enacted, what changes might need to be made to the constitution, and what governance might we need to write to give life to that and to make sure that that worked its way through. But both of those recommendations are subject to considerable discussion because in both cases what are the purposes of those committees, how are they being taken forward, and those have also led into broader conversations about governance, which I think has been really helpful, that members are having some of those conversations, not just at the point of something going on. They're looking proactively at all of our arrangements. I think something else that's positive at the moment is that Mr Geoffrey is the chair of that group's asked us to look a little bit at some of the things that are happening in other authorities, and that comparative exercise, so that it isn't just a, Well, we do it this way and Ken, we've always done it, and so forth, so there's a bit of openness in relation to that. There were some recommendations in relation to terms of reference and the way in which Cabinet members meeting and corporate board operated. We've completely refreshed the terms of reference for both Cabinet members meeting and corporate board. One of the challenges was to ensure that the Cabinet members meeting was made less political. There are now dedicated sections in the meeting for those political conversations to take place rather than as have been observed as part of the review and lack of boundary in some of those spaces, and corporate board is refreshed and refocused, as Catherine had suggested, that we do want the biggest and most important issues for the organisation to provide a key space for officers and members to work together on policy proposals and to make sure that the difficult conversations and advice take place. In relation to changing our approach to Freedom of Information Act in and of itself, those members, there's a couple, I think, here today who were at policy and resources. Yesterday, we had the hour and a half briefing on, I'm very happy to run, anyone who would like to go through the hour and a half briefing on information governance. We had an hour and a half yesterday talking about all of the things that we're doing as an organisation to try and improve our outcomes. We have, just for members information, we've improved. We had improved our performance over the back half of the year until very sadly, we received record numbers in the first quarter of this year, which unfortunately we weren't able to process in the time frame that we want, but the approach and the methodology is something that we're very firmly looking at. We're also looking at the use of the Council's website, proactive publication and all of the things that we can do to make information as accessible to members of the public as possible. We have a thing called a disclosure log, which now puts all of the past FOI requests on a searchable basis on the website, and we're looking at how we make that as user-friendly as possible so that a member of the public, looking on the website, could not just search the website but also search requests as easily and as efficiently as possible. The purpose being to give people the information that they need and they're entitled to as quickly as we can do that, and also as efficiently. There were recommendations in relations creating single system for commissioning, procurement, contracting, monitoring, performance evaluating impact, reducing the risk of commissioning service failures. Members will be aware that since the report that was changed is made in relation to the way in which commissioning was organised within the organisation, and Ms Maynard is in the room today and leads our commercial procurement team now, which has created a centre of excellence in relation to how we go about doing procurement. Members of this committee since the report have also approved the updated spending of council's money and were involved in redefining and rewriting that as well. As part of the response, we now have a very dedicated set of rules in relation to the way in which we as a council buy things, which wasn't there before in quite the same way. We're also looking at how we communicate that out better across the organisation, which was one of the governance and audit committee's key recommendations back to us. Looking at implementing the corporate forward planning process to ensure reports are timely reviewed by Finance and Legal to ensure accuracy and rigour, we are in the pilot stage now of a new key decision mechanism that we're using, which will automate the way in which decisions are taken, which will make sure that all of the relevant steps are not just finance and legal, but whether there is professional advice, for example, from property or ICT, or whether there's a public health implication, it goes to equality, it goes to policy teams as well, relevant to the issues that are being raised by the key decision. It will force a process in relation to the way in which decisions are taken, so it effectively takes the council's governance and basically walks people through a process, takes everything off of emails, takes everything off different ways of working and puts it into an app which effectively means, much like the way initially it was done by colleagues in policy who created the Equality Impact Assessment app, we have a data protection impact assessment app and we will effectively have a decision-making app so that those walking through the system very much, as Catherine had recommended to us, are forced to make sure that they take the advice at an early stage so that things are as organised and carefully considered as possible to improve our arrangements. Completing the update to the former governance arrangements, we have, and members will be aware of this, also done the work in relation to an update to the financial regulations which has gone through county council as well. As this committee, we've, as I touched on, looked at spending the council's money and we've been looking at a range of different provisions that we've got within our governance arrangement with further reports going to the July County Council in relation to the governance and the constitution and the outcomes of the governance working party going as well in due course for the necessary updates that are there. We have papers were published last night in relation to the County Council next week which take forward the Member Code of Conduct changes which we'd also talked about to reflect the LGA code and the conversations that have taken place with members there as well. Next slide please. And then just looking forwards, we've started to do work on members and officer training around governance. We had a governance week at the end of last year which was surprisingly well attended and I say surprising well intended. I appreciate that I and my colleagues are very interested in this but sometimes when you're working with across a large organisation sometimes there isn't the level of interest in some of the things that we put on but we, between both the information governance week that we did and the governance week that we did, we had over 1,500 attendees from the officer cadre looking at a range of different issues, everything from key decisions right the way through to how to prepare papers and to be ready for meetings and what the political environment looks like. It was a very difficult one of the things we picked up as part of the AGS and as part of discussions that I'd had with Catherine about how we approach training and development of our officers in a slightly different way so it was run members yesterday who were at the Information Governance briefing will have heard that there was even an escape room around Information Governance to try and train people on these things in different ways in slightly more practical ways that might make the subjects as interesting as possible given their importance for the organisation. We are developing a detailed member training and induction plan through the selection of member services subcommittee which is looking at the onboarding of members for 2025 and there will be some training there already has been some training that's starting to be delivered and we will be looking for volunteers particularly as we go across the late summer and autumn this year to test some of that training in a range of different areas and looking at how we make sure that it is absolutely as strong as it possibly can be for members going forward. Regular briefings are touched on the Information Governance one and we're looking at instituting those regular briefings as part of the calendar going forward as well. I've touched on the Governance Working Party as well. So in terms of the progress against the recommendations I think members of this committee were very clear about the purpose and the importance of governance. There was a conversation that took place following this committee at County Council to lay the pathway for the Governance Working Party. We have had external audit colleagues attending County Council for the first time which again was one of the conversations during the process that came forward and Grant Thornton will again be presenting their annual report to full council in July. So in terms of purpose we're making good progress in terms of strategy. So all of those things that I've foolishly called widgets before but the different little steps, the different little actions all very much lining up in place and within the timetables that we promised to do them within the AGS. Lots of really positive changes being introduced, lots of things that are very very different and will make a material difference and will also respond to the requests, recommendations, thoughts and advice that we got as a result of Catherine's work. The challenge will come in relation to the behaviours and we've talked about this a couple of times at this committee. Once those things are in place the challenge that's laid down by the report is also about how everybody behaves in relation to the Governance system and I've talked about it as part of the annual governance statement. The governance is very much a team sport. It isn't just for the specialists, it's about every single person who works within the organisation either as an employee or whether you're a member, understanding those rules and making sure that where they're not good enough the rules are changed, where necessary but otherwise they're complied with and work with and those behaviours which are the final part of the work that we need to be doing in the coming months, some of which will be addressed by training but some of which will be where the proof will very much be in the pudding. So there's no tick against that one yet but this is a mid-term report as it were and there's still very much work to do in relation to that. Members are going to be able to track all of these individual actions in the group tracker that we've talked about and then members will be able to identify those items that they wish to be put for a deep dive on the agenda of this committee going forward. So the way that we will do this going forwards is we won't simply provide an update like this, we will say to the members which ones would you like to do a deep dive and bring those on a case-by-case basis to the committee based on what members feel they would like to look at. Again looking to respond to the recommendation about us as an organisation making sure that the members of the Governance and Audit Committee are in control of what they're looking at. Chairman very happy to take questions or indeed comments from anybody and obviously Catherine is here for the opportunity to one see what we're doing but also to deal with any questions members might have and just to take the opportunity again to formally thank Catherine for her work on this. For me as monitoring officer it can sometimes be a little bit of a lonely role and I'm very grateful for the product and for the impetus that it's created. Thank you. Thank you, Ben and thank you, Catherine. This is quite an upbeat report. It's nice, it is, I'm a cynic though, but obviously there's still a lot to be done but I do look forward to seeing the the widgets on screen in action and I have to say we also have to thanks to all those colleagues who, including Katie here, who've paid a very large part in getting this together, there's been a lot of a lot of support from a lot of officers to do this and I think the committee should be very grateful for that support and thank you so much. Are there any questions for Ben or Catherine? No? None at all. Are we happy to note this report? Thank you very much. We look forward to further development. Thank you, Ben. I think actually we're moving on to the next agenda item which is also yourself. Don't go yet. The next agenda item, agenda item 6 is governance and audit committees annual report to county council, pages 7 to 8. Ben. Yes and apologies for trying to escape too soon though. The members will recall that last year there was, for the first time, a report from the governance and audit committee from the chair and what we are looking to do is to repeat that this July. We're trying to bring that in line with bringing both Grant Thornton's external audit report and a little bit of detail on the annual governance statement into that meeting so that all of those issues are all discussed in the round and at the same time so that there is the opportunity for the member voice in relation to what's been done and what's been handled in relation to the year so that your fellow members have the opportunity to hear about that. There's a report that we're working through with the chairman at the moment in draft and effectively because of when the committee falls, there won't be the opportunity to have that formally agreed by the committee at the next meeting in time before publication. We will do work with members outside of the committee to make sure that it's shared and it's discussed and that there's an opportunity. It is ultimately the report of the chair of the governance and audit committee but I know Chair, you're very keen to have the input and thoughts but it is ultimately the chair's report but it provides an opportunity and I felt it was a good meeting last year when members of the committee effectively were providing advice and guidance to the whole county council about some of the things that you'd looked at and why they were important and why they should be important to the broader membership and it's part of that if you like the virtuous circle that joins back up to make sure that we start to go back into the budget setting process for 25-26 that those lessons and those thoughts and the things that you've looked at as a committee are fed back to members and that's what the report will do so the paper sets out the proposed timetable in relation to that Chairman. Thank you Ben and I can assure members that I will be talking to every one of you about the report before it goes any further and looking at any amendments that are suggested. Are members happy to note that or agree that Mr. Child? Just on 1D and I appreciate that going to have a look at it prior. It doesn't specify timing and I'm sure there will be adequate time for us to look at it and it's not to go into that level of detail but I just want the assurance that it's not going to be I want comments by 4 o'clock this afternoon but to give us enough time to have a chance really because not all of us are on the email every time you know every second of the day and I would like at least 24 hours if that's possible. I can assure you will have more than 24 hours. Any other questions? Are you happy to agree the recommendation? Thank you. Now I'd like to take a change here, make a change here on the agenda and take agenda item 11 corporate risk register first because I know there are several there are several people who have to leave for another meeting then and today we have the leader Dr. Gough and the Deputy Leader Mr. Oakford as well as Mark Scrivener who is the head of risk and delivery assurance. Leader do you want to Mr. Gough do you want to say anything as an introduction? If I may just very quickly Chair. Just a few points. I think this is work that we take exceptionally seriously. I appreciate that as the report says it's the last time this was here for assurance was a year ago, May last year but as again as the report sets out it's been through cabinet, cabinet committees or work related to this cabinet cabinet committee's corporate board on numerous occasions so it is kept under very close control. I draw attention to the criteria or what's set out in section 4.2 because one of the challenges I think we've always had and one that I think Mark has rightly emphasised is the danger of getting almost overloading the risk register becoming desensitized to risk because in the current climate almost in things are risk and what I think section 4.2 tries to set out is a bit of how we've sought to approach that and what things should come in and be truly considered on the corporate risk list and what not and that does give a couple of surprises I think in one sense but in one sense it may at first sight be surprising to be taking something out like home to school transport out of the corporate risk list at a moment when we all know that's one of our biggest budgetary pressures but as the report sets out the logic to that is that we were previously looking at what was essentially governance risk of something that needed to be addressed in the wake of the analysis and report on home to school transport, SCN home to school transport in 2022 and in fact what we're now dealing with is something that's much more part of the overall set of budgetary pressures. Similarly when we look at EES which is something we've been talking about a great deal and which is enormously important we're separating that out from the argument about what's been a our ability to handle multiple crises at once one of which was you know I think this very much as a blind thinking arose in the run up to Brexit conclusion at the same time as the Kent variant was on the move and all sorts of things were happening in sort of 2020-2021. Now again this what I think we've shown is that we're actually quite good at dealing with multiple crises and there's some assurance from the record here but there is something very very specific happening with EES so you treat those again separately. So I hope what's set out here is a sort of discriminating approach and one that does try to get and it's something which as the report mentions we reflected on and endorsed at Cabinet in January. The very important that we really hone in on what are the big corporate risks and that we don't so overload it that we lose the wood for the trees. I'll leave it there if I may. Thank you Mr Gough. Actually I had both those points down but if anybody else didn't say them. Mr Wittle did you want to say anything at all or should I go straight to I'll go then I'll go straight to Mr Scrivener. Thank you Madam Chairman. It was agreed I think it's been mentioned at the previous committees that that more regular updates will come to this committee and that will be the case around the corporate risk register for assurance purposes and the item today comes to you after doing the rounds of Cabinet committees as Mr Gough says where these corporate risks were sort of divvied up and sent to the most relevant Cabinet committees for scrutiny so the risk owners and Cabinet members were present alongside a summary of the director at risks. And as with last year I would say that the governance and audit committee members sort of led the way in terms of asking questions about the risk which is helpful which then prompted other discussion from other members and then section three of the cover reports summarises the main points and several of them and such as status of controls featuring my team's work plan for the year so there were some very kind of useful questions there in terms of the scrutinising of the risks that were there some queries about the ratings looking at linkages and where potentially more and more we see more secondary risks where we're actually looking to mitigate the risks that are put in front of us but actually we end up almost if we're not careful we have to be clear about the delivery of those mitigations which could potentially bring in other risks. It's like that risk trade-off point I think was discussed several times so that was helpful sort of scrutiny from members there. The any other part of this report that doesn't come routinely to the committee is what Mr Gough's just mentioned so in section four we look to the principles developed around here to try and further clarify or guide what risks come on to the register and what come off and I think I know a lot of other local authorities are looking at those kind of risks that you almost expect to see on there and if you don't you might might get anxious and I suppose what I would say is that there's that kind of difference between risk management where we're actually looking to do more to get to a realistic target level of risk but also it's within risk assurance and I'm sure that you know the risk when they come off the register they don't disappear they go into the director level registers or and they will have the risk owner a senior level risk owner you know almost in almost all instances of CMT owner with them and you know they are expected to escalate again as need be so hopefully the register will become more dynamic as well as streamlined so other than that the main changes to the register itself are summarizing section two of the report and they will have been referenced through the various cabinet committee reports and cabinet before that as well so thank you. Thank you all. Now members do you have any questions on these? Mr. Hood and then Mr. Passmore. Thank you very much Chair. I think it is striking that so many of the biggest risks are so great that the target for mitigation is so alarmingly high such as security resources to aid economic recovery and our own future funding for the Council. Obviously the threat in terms of cybersecurity and climate change is huge and ongoing but no less ominous and I just want to look at risk number nine which is unlikely to be reduced by which supplies to our general funding and it's unlikely to be reduced by any change of administration nationally of course we've recently been told that there's going to be if we have an incoming government of a different complexion we're going to have three more years of this funding so there's very little mitigation for that for that risk and this supplies to so many of them. Risk 53 with the capital program affordability because we know that the transformation of this if our estate is crucial if we're to become financially sustainable and as we've seen in the case of folks in the library that if we have a reactive rather than a preventative maintenance program we seem to be putting out what fires instead of preventing them in the first place and that leaves communities without key services so it's like a catch 22 situation isn't it and if we're not able I'm troubled that we're not able to pay for the capital projects which are going to allow us to get to where we want to be in terms of delivering more services in fewer better fewer and better buildings and delivering multiple services we can we're going to be in trouble but this isn't helped is it because we've got a situation where in future public sector decarbonisation which I know the council has done a huge amount of work on we're going to be we're going to be struggling with because we're going to have to much fund the contributions that we previously spent 100% of this this funding has come from the central government so I think this is another another major problem later on the fact that we've got two premises offices to evaluate and the plan for the the schools of state I think that's fantastic that's really welcome I just and it's also fantastic the later on we talk about the fact that the council's on top of the the rack issue with our with our buildings do we have a similar human resource or are we considering that a human resource in terms of those offices for the for the rest of the estates general question and I just wanted to ask about border fluidity I know that the cabinet members here and probably will be able to give us an update because sorry mr that I didn't get that last comment what do you say you also wanted to ask zero double zero four two border fluidity the risk the risk there which is kind of a bit like the elephant in the room isn't it because we've got a problem with border fluidity could be more like quicksetting cement if if the worst case scenario comes to power so I wondered if there's any further update I always ask for an update about entry exit arrangements and then finally the climate change because that's obviously that's a risk that is going to be ever present as well that's not one going to be one that's going to drop off I just wanted to know how much work has been done in terms of mitigation for things like care homes in terms of making sure that they're more resilient to extreme warm weather and also for schools in order to keep them cool and water surprise if there's any what works been done around that because we know that without water we can't open these buildings I'll stop there thank you very much thank you mr. Wood I think mr. Oakwood you're going to have to I can look at some of them yes and mr. Gough can take on some of them certainly the border I'll talk about the capital questions and building maintenance if I may there is some good news members will remember that we increased the budget for Rebecca Spall's maintenance area this year but we are not in a position where we can do proactive maintenance I'm afraid we are still in a position where due to the financial pressures that we are we're under we are doing reactive maintenance we will be doing more reactive maintenance and and we will continue to review our portfolio of real estate by selling some of our surplus real estate we are able to reinvest that money unfortunately last year we had to use 8 million pounds of it to support our capital budget but we are able to reinvest our asset sales into our schools and into our highways which is very much part of our plan and what we continue to do it has been a number of years now since we've had to borrow money because we've been reinvesting our asset sales therefore we are not increasing the the debt of the council so the cost of finance in that debt does decrease as we are paying off some of the loans that we currently have but that is is is a little good news but we can't yet move to the position that we would like to be in where we have fewer buildings and we can have a proactive maintenance program to make sure that we don't get into the position that we have with some of our buildings and I think that's all I can say and on the the border and over I'll hand over to the leader if I may thank you mr ochford mr gov thank you yeah oh I think the the risk related to that gets it about right in terms of the four four four times four as the estimation of that level of risk so it is there is an enormous amount of work going on but the risk that remains is highly significant I think is a fair description so what form does that take well some of it is clearly our work with government and these are I think there are elements of this that only government can address and in particular the the relationships with both the European Union and with the French authorities in terms of how and when with what particular features this is implemented so you know to the degree that you could I mean you're not going to get the app in place before the before EES comes in if it is indeed later this year which is still the underlying assumption and seems highly likely but questions do with pre-registration for example exactly how that is done how you separate out things out from that core risk around what happens within the port particularly within the eastern docks is really important there's a lot of work that the key points of exit are under have been undertaking so as I think you'll have seen I've been down with along with a number of colleagues to both your eternal and port of Dover to see the work in both cases extensive but clearly ported over is geographically very constrained but to be very clear as to what that risk is another important element which hasn't been landed yet is um under is is a definitive statement of what the risks are so in other words the so-called reasonable worst case scenario we are awaiting that from government there is work also being done with Jacobs in terms of traffic modeling and it's seeking to bring those two things together so and then at the same time there is a great deal of work being done in preparation exercises and the like particularly within Kent Resilience Forum and learning the lessons from each occasion when we get what's already a what's going to be a busy time so if you look back at what happened at Easter which in fact came out on that occasion clearly we are well pre-ES at that point but came out relatively well it's the lessons from that it's the role that for instance the path the French border force undertook during that time all of those lessons are being learned and I think you'll see a lot more of it coming through in the autumn and the final element is actually pitching for what is appropriate funding for all the things that we will need to help mitigate so all of that is underway and we will seek to keep on reporting on it and I think you'll see the anti on that being up as we go through the year I can't pretend from that that eliminates the risk because it clearly doesn't and chunks of it are beyond our control but I think we can offer some assurance other than enormous amount of work is being done thank you mr go okay mr passport yeah mr chairman just I think it's a well-structured report I agree entirely that actually simplification of the risks down to relatively few which can be focused on is entirely the right way to go anything I'd like to ask on is the mechanism for transferring the risks from the directorate level to the corporate level so at each there's a structure beneath resolution we do have it in the policy but it's about bringing it to life isn't it and how that actually happens and my team we will go around to each of the sort of division management teams director management teams regularly and the regular engagement with CMT and the corporate board and for each of those conversations any of those flagged as risk factors read will be put up and the question raised around actually are we happy that they're managed at that level if you're moderating up to the next level do they need to be you know you reassess them are they still significant enough to go on to the the next level up whether it's directorate or even on to the the corporate register so there's a kind of a the process in place that steps steps that up and my team very much looking at kind of that with the heads of service at that level just to make sure that the right sort of things are coming on bottom up but also some things do come in sort of top down straight at the top level in terms of some strategic horizon scanning as well so yeah the process is well established thank you mr craftsman are there any other mr berry do um thank you just just a general question really so um we've got target risks um we've got target dates and a general timeline towards that what happens if those dates aren't meant um are the actions reevaluated to find out what went wrong um and how proactive are we on that because if we're if it's a month before that target date and it's nowhere near um what are the conversations around that thank you yeah absolutely i think that the report references it probably you know quite shortly but um it needs a bit more i did plan to come back or do plan to come back um because a lot of the kind of process where this committee was asking about well the win um and when we kind of came to that i think a compromise position that said rather than just came well by the 15th of whatever month it will be this um there are and i think as we've said the risks are more complex you know quite complex systemic some elements are outside of our control etc so i think it's more of a more focused review because we review it as part of the um risk review process but a more focused review to report on that says well actually let's look at this as you described we said approximately we think you know within two years or whatever we put down from a baseline date let's as you say review where we are yeah what we've done more ourselves internally what external factors of stock meant that we actually can't move this forward as we would like to um and to be honest this was like a a pilot thing that i'd like to kind of you know bring back a work through and um see how it's worked and where we might want to go from there but certainly that the question that we'll be asked when i speak to risk owners about that that piece of actually that time period is uh coming up and um you know what have we learned and uh you know make sure the process is worthwhile but that challenge is always helpful i think you want to come back to us past one of mr roadie nope okay are there any other questions um i would point out that cr 16 the sustainability the social care market is something that i think we have to look at a lot more closely there are a lot of questions here i know there wasn't nobody here from uh that director today so i think we shall have to consider whether we will look at that at a later date in much more depth because there are quite a few questions there um if there are no more questions sorry mr hood he used to come back i'm sorry just to if i could get a question i didn't have an answer to the my question about the zero the sufficiently funding for net zero because of the changes of the um the level of funding that we get from central government i just wasn't if there was any response to that because our capacity to get to where we want to be given our limited um funding in our ability to to fund this internally i just wanted a response on the cabinet about that a sufficient funding mr oakford is this sufficient funding um i think it's a well rehearsed argument that we don't have sufficient funding in any area um but as for specific funding for net zero i think net zero is covered by our budget in all areas um and if i use property as an example the biggest way that we lower our carbon footprint is by looking at the buildings that we have um the efficiency of those buildings and whether or not they fit for purpose and the building that we sit in is a prime example of a building that's outdated that has a high carbon cost and one that we're working to dispose of and i think that by working through our real estate and doing the work that we're doing we will be leading our what the way in lowering the carbon footprint of the council but to say have i got a box of money somewhere that we can give to a department and say this is specifically for that i'm afraid the answer is no it's a a joint responsibility that the council takes as part of the way that we operate generally and something that all departments look at to see how we can contribute to reducing um our carbon use across every department that wasn't that wasn't what i was asking asking for i was um i was asking more for an acknowledgement that the job the work that we are doing that we're doing some of this work really well is being hamstrung by the fact that we are going to have to come up with 50 of the funding ourselves when previously that funding was was available from central government sorry thank you if there are no more questions uh the committee is asked to note the report for insurance is that noted okay thank you thank you mark for a good report thank you very much uh we now go on to item seven on your list which is counter fraud and your report 2020-2023-2024 and we have James Flannery here counter fraud manager and also Sarah Drape thank you chair um so yeah the annual report for the counter fraud um service provides members of the irregularities reported to during the last financial year members will note the reported irregularities have increased compared to previous year this demonstrates better awareness the need to report irregularities across both fraud and error um it is my view that this these irregularities have always been within the services it's just that they haven't um necessarily always been reported to internal audit um there's been significant work completed over the year by the counter fraud team to not only raise awareness but to also work with management in mitigating the risks of irregularity irregularities occur again there are inherent schemes such as the blue badge and direct parents that by their nature are more respectful to to irregularities than others members will note the number of irregularities reported against procurement within adult social care um to provide context to the operating environment the volume value and complexity of the circumstances will result in errors occurring um working with district and power councils has seen an increase in them addressing blue badge misuse which impacts some of the most vulnerable residents in Kent there's been successful prosecutions through the year um to address some of the most aggravating cases as well as simple precautions being issued to help and support change behavior the greatest pressure this year has been increasing destitution checks for people claiming no recalls to public funds a number of risks sent themselves in these cases such as undeclared capital income and identification fraud a review by finance on off payroll employees has resulted in the tax liability payment to HMRC better controls are now in place to ensure that the check employment status for tax assessment is completed appropriately and the Kent intelligence network continues to support billing authorities identify increase in the tax base the quarter three results show that the kin is exceeding the three to one return on investment quite significantly through its activity that KCC support through the grant funding there is a high level counter fraud action plan for 24 25 it's also covered in the report this outlines the key errors of focus for the counter fraud team through the year and I'll pass over to my colleague Sarah just to talk and provide no view of the national fraud initiative work that she's been completing thank you so this is a result of April 24 and this is an exercise that matches electronic data within and between public and private sector bodies to prevent and detect fraud the result listed in appendix D shows how many matches were received as a part of this initiative and the associated level of risk within these matches you may notice that there's a high risk percentage on matches that are associated with blue badges and the hill payroll and credits its data to name a few within the results there's a total amount recorded alongside the total cabinet office saving if the matches are completed in action in a timely manner then usually this will this total amount recorded shouldn't be substantial due to catch any regularity early on or there may not be a recoverable amount so for example with the concessionary travel passes however there will be a total cabinet office saving which works out how much would have been lost if that concessionary travel pass was still in use or a pension was still in payment as another example the greatest value of NFI is the preventive activity through the cancellation of badges and concessionary bus passes helping to detect and prevent misuse moving forward thank you and we're just open to questions thank you James and Sarah are there any questions? Mr Brady? Oh and Dr. Horne Mr. Brady's going to very much welcome to the report and particularly the increased detection of fraud my question is really to Sarah or about appendix D and the national fraud initiative because when we saw this at a previous committee we were given the number of potential hits under the what had been detected but actually what's come to pass is actually quite a low value and my question is whether that's a surprise or whether we should make a surprise given the volume of potential hits or whether that's a realistic position thank you so thank you for the question and I don't think it is a surprise just because a lot of the matches are preventative and so although you don't see a recoverable amount as such the main sort of idea of the NFI is a preventative and so for example with the pension amount the total recorded amount to be recovered is significantly live but the actual preventative saving is really high and so that's kind of what we're aiming here it's more of a preventative tool for us in order to minimize that risk thank you. Add to that is that the NFI in particularly some areas it's a layered approach and although the NFI comes out every two years services also have other data analytics in place to help and prevent and detect fraud and error occurring so the NFI is not to be all an end all of data analytics within the authority in preventing it so for example pensions also run quite regular sweeps on mortality data to ensure that pensions are us are are ended in a timely manner but with the NFI collecting some other data as well so it is a range of tools that is available to us. Mr Brady thank you I'm just going to quickly talk on the total loss which is 2.8 million and the actual loss which is 311 000 if it is in here I apologize but is the 311 000 recoverable what percentage of that will we be getting back and just a quick question on the NFI now so are these hits actual numbers that we are realizing within the county so I'm talking about the duplicate records by amount and credit to reference which is 17.17 000 with about 2000 high risks that's duplicate payments in excess of 1000 pounds that's quite high is that actual errors that occurring within KCC or when you say matches is that possible errors that we don't actually have have scope or just something like that yeah so just on the recoverable amount yes um you know we as a service I think it would be beyond our remit to to follow up and make sure every penny is collected we've got to rely on our colleagues in debt recovery to to do that and I would it's that position of the debt outstanding debt amount but yes part of our job is to make sure that the debt recovery process starts invoices are raised and engagement then occurs with the data particularly where there is that all credit notes in order to to net off the the overpayment occurring so yes all the amount is is recoverable where it is decided that actually it's not recovered then that will go through the normal debt write-off process mechanisms in place which was in section 1-5 one of so we'll review any significant debts as well as the Gumps and all its committee um so within the national fraud initiative there were a number of things called false positives so where the match might indicate that there is a fraud or error occurring however when you investigate those sort of circumstances it identifies that there is a false positive for example um within creditors KCC might make regular payments for council tax and business rates that will come up as a match because we are paying the same invoice month in month out which would indicate that it's a duplicate invoice it's not we're just paying our monthly installments for council tax and business rates through those mechanisms unfortunately due to the the way that the nature is of the the data is structured within our financial systems and that how that goes up to the cabinet office means that that is an inherent risk of the national fraud initiative that we get false positives on on those ones by removing those false positives we would also be removing the actual duplicate invoices and so forth that that might be happening in respect to duplicate invoices again there's systems and matches that happen on a weekly basis on the pay runs within finance in order to detect um duplicate invoices and so forth so that's why we don't get a lot of results out of that one because again there's a lot of information that is done on a weekly basis through natural controlled environment to help prevent and detect duplicate invoices being paid that said we do try and look at the high risk ones so we can actually confirm that they are false positives we do learn from them and i don't know if you've got anything else to add on on that server um yeah i was just going to add that yeah um our first priority is always to look at the high risk ones and so for example at the blue badges ones that was our first priority just because there was an excessive number and but actually they turned up to be false positives as well um for example the blue badge where it's linked to a phone number and the idea of that matches the link uh duplicate badge but in fact that number belonged to someone else and that kind that kind of was the theme throughout that match so we kind of established you know if we do sample testing that that was a false positive in that respect so just to give you a picture of that thank you mr berry yeah if i can get back so um the total cabinet office saving so i'm looking at the same line um and you're looking at the big tickets the high the high numbers where it could be duplicate payments um i think i'm i want to look at the what actual payments were duplicates and it we're looking at um total amount recorded zero total cabinet office saving zero so are we saying all of those were false positives and nothing the duplicates weren't actioned so the red flags aren't there or am i am i reading it wrong and out of the two two um thousand there were some big tickets but i i i'm not really understanding the full picture of how you then retrieve or look at those duplicate payments which could be a lot of money um and looking at the number could could have been multiple instances and so a lot of so some of the matches so the ones that i think you refer into the third pensions dwp and the reason that one specifically says zero is just because they're still currently in progress so i'm working with the pension steam at the moment and they are working through those so we just haven't got an updated figure at this time regarding that um but i do know there are some outcomes regarding that and that should be reported in the next report sorry it wasn't pensions it's page 41 bottom of the table um duplicate records by amount and credit to reference um so this is the match highlights possible duplicate payments excess of one thousand that may have arisen as a result of poor controls um or fraudulent activity um amount of high weeks matches um two thousand two hundred and twenty seven um in red these are the ones that i relate to about the duplicate um the the regular payments to the business rates and council tax um and other um areas but i don't know if you need to add on on that one um no no i don't at the moment no i was just i was just about to say because not all of them i've been actioned at the moment so um duplicate records by amount and credit to reference yeah i don't think we've looked at those at the moment in that but so obviously we've looked at the high risk ones that um yeah but the low risk ones we'll do a sample test on okay mr cooper and then mr possible thank you very much madam chairman and just uh on mr brie's points on page 10 the total loss of 2.8 million is that higher or lower than last year i can't seem to find it in the report anywhere mentioned that's higher than last year yeah mainly driven up by the irregularity relating to the ir 35 assessments um there's also been um sort of the the the procurement more awareness on procurement and over payments coming in from adult social care which has driven up that amount so like i said at the beginning of the briefing is that i think we we've always had these irregularities it's just that they haven't been as transparent as before may i just sorry madam chairman may i just ask how much more than last year if it is in the report pack please let me know i i couldn't find it but if you give me five minutes i can report thank you thank you very much madam chairman thank you okay thank you mr possible yeah thank you for the report i just wondering if we spent more on counter fraud would we get more recovered um is there a benefit in spending more it's prevention that i would like my resources to be moving forward on so i do have sort of three investigating officers or 2.8 in relation to reactive and one in relation to proactive side of things um you know we are working with governance and law around having full risk assessments within the key decision process we want to get that full risk assessment more embedded within b.a.u. activities of where grant funding comes from central government that we can then do full risk assessments and prevent and design out for an error within there obviously there's big projects like the ECB going on within the council which if not appropriately managed there could errors could could occur out of irregularities occurring there we've also as i think i reported back in september the irregularities relating to the mosaic payment portal and some of the checks and balances that aren't in place within um the invoicing for supportive living accommodation um which you know is where i would like to push my resources for but so i would say that um it's that hard balance between reactive work and proactive work the resources that i would like to build into the team is to help support the more proactive side of things so we can prevent it and design it out of the system um along with the reactive stuff moving forward so i don't think is i think we were we're actually recovering they think because we're holding management to account we hopefully get recover um we get credit notes we get the invoices raised and so forth to move that forward um we shouldn't be good the debt collectors of the council we've got to work with management to to support their actions in in that um so it is a hard one i think if i had more resource which i would be looking for then i think it would be around focusing that on the preventive side of things and those big projects that the council have got so we can embed counterfeit specialists into those projects um and and have them embedded in there um rather than just being on the periphery and sometimes um not being engaged at all so thank you and thank you james for that because i'm looking at this and seeing an awful lot of cases of how can we be paying people that aren't actually working anymore for kcc how can that happen why haven't the checks been done uh you know so the payments aren't made at all so prevention is is where it's at here and it's not the individual case that's missed and that's uh just an error but uh i don't understand quite how we can be paying people that aren't on the payroll um or paying an invoice without checking it and how can we have um care being delivered and then not know that um they're under delivering um it may be that there's a lot of transactions going on you said 40 000 transactions every four to five weeks now that works out at about 1,800 a day sorry 1,800 a day uh you know that that may sound a lot but is it really a lot if you compare it with what an awful lot of people in amazon or somewhere else uh or any other um outfit are are dealing with it may not be it depends on our stuff so maybe our resources there aren't good enough or aren't uh adequate shall we say for this but i do wonder where we're going wrong if we're actually these aren't these aren't small errors these this is systems failure in that we are paying people that certainly when we're paying people that aren't there or aren't working for us anymore um and that this is what amazes me most about this so i'm glad you're looking at the prevention and if you need more stuff for that than i think we should know about it and discuss it um are there any other questions mr hood mr oakford thank you madam chair um on the point that that you raised there's another area where something similar has been identified and what in my mind this is is staff and managers not doing their job correctly in that when somebody has left the company it hasn't been notified appropriately and and to somebody taken off of the payroll and so when the payroll is run the people are automatically still paid so i don't know if that's the case but that's what this sounds like to me and certainly in another area that i'm looking at at the moment with officers it's a very similar case where it's staff that haven't done their job and the systems are being blamed so we are having a look at that to find out what we can do to improve the processes to make sure that in if that is a case here when somebody leaves they are taking off the payroll it to me it's a very basic management role that HR are informed and the person's taken off the payroll thank you mr over here thank you very much chair um i'm very grateful for the report it's very comprehensive as it always is i'm always staggered that you get through this amount of work with such a small team it's an incredibly small team and i agree with the points that were made earlier about maybe if there was more resources it would be more like it would be like an investor to save measure um i just want to ask this is a significant 30 percent increase in the number of referrals um i just it and it's in the paper it says did you awareness is part of this could could explain that is there any signal it's any reason for the massive disparity between the referrals from the different districts um are some districts just a little bit more vigilant my own district shares counter fraud with casey set temperature morning and um and i am assured that they carry out the the same level of excellence service there as they do here but in temperature morning there were only nine cases in the last calendar year now there were 101 in ashford so are they over referring or is there a particular campaign there is there i've got no reason to believe that people who live in those particular postcodes are any more likely to be wrongings than anywhere else in the county so is there is there any underlying reason for that particular spike in ashford and a couple of the other districts thank you very much um before jones answers can i ask everybody um to speak to the microphone and not to the person that they yeah it does help with the recording so in respect to the latest awareness question is that yeah that is that there's that sort of formal ways and awareness where we go through and provide that awareness training to to say DMTs or frontline staff to raise awareness i would say that there's that informal sort of um sort of touch awareness where you know we are part of um sort of uh community within adult social care sype we have engagement with all lines of of management and staff levels and it is just that continuous message to them about reporting irregularities we are not here to point fingers or to um identify blame we are here to support and identify lessons learned and that culture about actually we are their friend their critical friend is so important with the referrals increasing because they can trust us we're not going to be start you know we're not the ones that are going to be um causing problems with them we're trying to help solve to help them solve the problem um so i think that as a that sort of culture change is is really important with an a bit like the data um data breaches we want to encourage a self-reporting mechanism within the authority so that's working really well and i'm really pleased with the results on that one in respect to why Ashford is higher than everyone else um i think again it's around personalities within the district parking teams where you have got a proactive manager um looking forward and empowering their civil enforcement officers to go and do this work and the actively encouraging them to do that that's where you get the best results within Ashford not saying that that is not being done elsewhere um but what i would say is that the results speak for themselves i don't see Ashford being any different to any other boa within within the within the county and i would say that if if the the enthusiasm that the Ashford bar council parking team take and if that was replicated um again we would be swamped with referrals that we are already struggling to deal with and we're having to have those difficult conversations about actually can we take some of these investigations forwards um in the past we could have done but with the other areas that we are now getting from through greater awareness it's a real difficult headache to have um and so yes resources is definitely on the um agenda for discussion over the next couple of months with our colleagues across the council thank you mr bond thank you chair um yeah just i want to follow up the one about the payroll because they just shed the light if we're still paying them because if i take mr arkford's comments because people haven't taken them off the payroll if they've taken them off the it system have they taken away their parcel they still got access to the it system they've still got access to their pass because they haven't been taken off as like the payroll because it's particularly the it systems a bit of a worry because most people are working from home now so their ability of their equipment and everything else they can still get into the system um in respect to the invoices you know my experience tells me that companies do occasionally duplicate invoices but that's more the process of getting things signed off and going through the paper trial before it gets paid um which is probably the case here for the odd ones but the payroll system is a worry because i don't whether you've looked into it or not or we've done an audit on it yeah so the process is that where we get any regularity regarding the salary over payment that we do engage with recruiting manager or other line manager to understand why the error occurred in the first place and unfortunately is human error a lot of the time in respect and it could be that there's that the manager was on long-term sick and the person left and the relevant actions weren't taken in the system so we do engage with management to understand lessons learned and to ensure that they have learned the lesson and and make sure that they don't uh it happens again um but we do also accept referrals in relation to any theft of laptop equipment and and and any um things like that um there is a separate process for returning of of IT equipment to that of ending payroll and i'm quite satisfied that you know managers are usually quite good with getting the IT kit the physical in physical items back um but it's the it's the system sometimes that fails or the human error it kicks in um that means that the payroll continues um one moment mr brawn mr Jonathan yeah just to address some of the issues we are currently looking at an internal audit on status and leave the so we're able to give some assurance as it when that audit's completed yes mr brawn chair i'm not overly worried about the equipment although i imagine it's more the access because you know you can access things on private devices and we need to make sure that's closed off and likewise just your security passes and things like that as you said if someone's on long-term sick when we actually chase it to get it back um or they still have access here and if they've got a grudge they could really cause havoc i think we'll note that um and take that into account when we look at scoping out the audit Jonathan you wish to come back yeah it's just just a general comment overall really i just want to pick up on a previous comment that the amount of work that's undertaken by the count of fraud team is substantial and um and they've been tremendous on the consistent basis so it's important to everyone to acknowledge that and also um i've come back to the point that James introduced early on just to emphasize the the tremendous results of the work delivered and coordinated by uh our Kent Intelligence Network Manager this this report provides nine months of results as you yielded benefits benefits of 1.8 million pounds to Kent County Council thank you Jonathan i think we're all aware that this is a very important area and a very productive area um whilst i take on board your comments about being uh there to help them to improve i think there is a point where um you can uh lose uh a sight of the fact that um some of these errors are wasting public money and i'm sure an awful lot of the public would like to be paid by mistake but unfortunately it doesn't happen if they're in many areas and i think that we should look at that with considerably more um vigor than uh oh dear what went wrong there and why did you do that and i appreciate that's not your job your job is to point it out but it is our job to look at it and say that's not acceptable um there are a couple of things that just aren't acceptable we're dealing with public money the public don't like to see it wasted or going into the wrong hands when it shouldn't be um so i thank you for the report and you do a very valuable job you are your colleagues and i i suspect that you haven't got enough resources and uh that is something we have to look at and see if we can squeeze a little bit of money out of a purse that's almost empty to start with but um thank you very much for that are there any other questions in which case we are asked to uh let me see note the counter fraud update report for 23 24 and the reported irregularities note the progress of the counter fraud action plan for 23 24 to review comment on and approve the counter fraud action plan for 24 25 are we happy we've done that members agreed in which case thank you very much James and Sarah for your input today and now we move on to agenda item eight which is the global internal audit standards update and have Jonathan Eidel and Richard Benjamin internal audit manager who is i think going to take this yes Richard thank you chair um so so this this report introduces the the new global internal audit standards currently internal audit work under the international professional practice framework and the public sector internal audit standards they were last refreshed back in 2017 that have not been reviewed in detail for a number of years before that last year the institute of internal audit globally launched a review of the standards it went out to consultation last year and the final set of standards was issued in January this year um the standards won't come into effect until January 25 which gives us a year to prepare and make sure that we comply with the standards um and the report before you today really gives you an overview of some of the more notable changes to the standards now we are obviously conducting a more in-depth analysis we're doing a gap analysis on where we're not currently not complying with new standards and that will be uh brought to governance audit committee a future meeting where we will have developed an improvement plan which will set out actions that we need to put in place to ensure that we do comply come next January that said um we were at our last external quality assessment we were compliant with the IPPF and the public sector internal audit standards um and I envisaged that we will actually be compliant with a lot of the new standards so you know but undoubtedly there will be some um tweaks and changes that need to be made to our practices to ensure compliance moving to the report so in 2.2 this sets out some of the more as say more notable changes whether there's additions or um differences in the new standards compared to the last standards and I think in there it notes domain three which covers governing internal audits and this is quite a quite a change from the last standards so within this domain and within the um standards within this domain um the standards set out specific responsibilities for senior management and the board for for our purposes we count the board as the governance and audit committee in 2.3 that sets out in more detail what those responsibilities are um and obviously meeting those requirements will form part of our more in depth gap analysis finally just a note before questions in section three um in the new global internal audit standards there's a there's a brand new concept of topical requirements so this is not a requirement for us to carry out any audit in a particular area however there are a list of areas they plan to release topical requirements for um and where we do conduct audits in those areas there will be a list of requirements under those topical requirements that we are expected to include within the scope two dates the global internet institute of internal auditors have released one topical requirement at the moment and that is on cyber security so we started reviewing that and actually um I think then it then that stands out from that is there is the ability to kind of explain comply or explain if you like so if this particular area is in the topical requirement that we do not include in the audit we have the ability to document why and why the scope is as it is um that's it for introducing the report i'm happy to take any questions mr coop you had a question thank you madam chairman i've got quite a lot of questions but you're pleased to know i'm not going to ask many of them because um they're all related to the implementation which i understand we'll we'll be learning that later so i i won't preempt that but what i am curious about is there's an emphasis on on technology on technology supporting the internal audit process i've say um in paragraph two one two there's a whole bullet point which i struggle to understand a little bit so forgive me but i it mentions the technological constraints currently um i'd quite like to know what we mean well i i know what we mean but what technological constraints exist currently um you know use of technology in the internal audit process and that might just help me understand a little bit about what the um proposed solution might be when when that does come along thank you madam chairman thank you mr so you're right so it's not necessary that there are any constraints at the moment in the internal audit standards which obviously is new it actually states that it's the head of internal lord at the 240 executives responsibility to ensure the technology is there to uh to achieve the objectives of the internal audit function so that may be simple things like you know general IT tools um we're just about meaning we have an audit management system where we collect evidence and making sure that's implemented you know key key new things and there's other mentions within standards about um data analytics making sure we have the right tools to conduct data analytics and fulfill those areas of the standards and obviously with you know with the advent i'll say advent but you know the rollout of artificial intelligence which is another key area within internal audit so making sure we have the tools so it's it's not really that there's constraints now it's just making sure that the head of audit has got an active role in making sure that we've got the technology to to carry out the internal audit function okay mr koop are there any other questions mr brazie um thank you just a couple of points i think everybody in this committee should view um the new standards as a positive um crudely it's sharpening the internal audit's teeth really um i think over the last couple of years there have been a few incidents where cabinet members or corporate directors have pushed back a bit on internal audit um so when um there's a importance of internal audit document that's going to be rewritten and completed so i'd like to see once that is completed it circulated i'm sure it will be to all cabinet members and corporate directors and directors to sign off um to limit those instances previous instances that occurred to limit that um them occurring again uh in moving forward thank you thank you mr brazie i'm sure we all endorse that comment uh are there any other questions okay in that case we are asked to note the new global internal audit standards and uh is that agreed thank you thank you very much thank you we now move on to the internal audit progress report uh and uh that is Jonathan first and then russell the other way around oh russell first russell smith uh good morning so the report details the work undertaken between january and april 2020 24 to date there's been 46 percent of the opinions for 2023 24 have been either high of substantial um within the report there are 15 summaries included uh two of which we've taken later in the exempt item and they're summarized in section four of the report and slide five also uh so the report includes good examples of positive assurance which include um unregulated care placements which received high assurance seventon inland border posts which received a substantial assurance and the incomes and fees uplift client benefit analysis and better care fund also received substantial assurance and then also the gypsy and traveler follow-up uh was very impressive in terms of the implementation of significant issues at that particular audit as um all were addressed um other audits to note in the report include the follow-up on indie contracts and at the time of writing the report there was no evidence of implementation hospital discharge there were many many positive strengths relating to the locality teams however there were a number of areas of development which also included there not been an agreement in place with integrated uh care board uh also the sundry debt audit one to note uh where so while the processes were good and there had been limited assurance with the extent of the cancellation of invoices so over 11 month period there had been 12.6 billion in cancellations of invoices and then also um to note is the the work on the enterprise business capabilities um embedded assurance piece of work so strengths have been identified such as the refresh governance structure and the defined timelines for phase one and phase two however there's been some um however there's improvements that are required in terms of um reporting on the ebc budgets position and an ebc and internal audit will continue to provide ongoing advice on the program um as part of the rolling plan for 24 25 and i'm happy to take any questions uh mr brady in the mr hood um thank you thank you for the report thank you chair um can i just ask is there um an officer a member for my lot of social care here i think i said earlier that he's not one today no so i'd like to register my my disappointment there so i'm not sure if these can be answered um rbo8 um 224 individual contracts on care pride of provider follow-up um disappointing to hear that none of the recommendations have been implemented um obviously i'm speaking to entry space because there's not the cabinet member here um and it does mention that um you welcome the support that was given um when you're looking at hospital discharges um but it is when i'm looking at value for money it's surprising um to see that um it's not monitored um those care packages aren't monitored so that question would be to the cabinet member um what is going to be done um they're not here and so i'll be 30 sundry debt recovery um just a little bit more information on that if possible looking at the cancellation process it says that there's that's not monitored and there's an absence of an authorization limit so we are looking at 12.6 million so just to general over view of the ramifications of the absence of uh monitoring and uh authorization limit thank you thank you mr baby for any further i will say um i had a lot of questions too and i find it amazing that nobody um thought it relevant to come to governance and audit knowing that this agenda was coming um it is primarily um on the adult social care primarily um i'm a little bit amazed at a couple of other areas but uh i'll wait until i hear the other questions but i think that um this is something where we have to call them back to the next meeting and uh ask all the questions because there are a lot of but most particularly the failure to implement any of the um any of the actions and not to comment on it at all uh i don't know if Jonathan you want to add anything to that yeah well i'm just used to my uh new audit manager deputy'sman who can talk about the uh couple of the adult social care uh responses and then i'll the colleague mandapam i will can talk about the sundry debt response okay so we so we will get some questions answered maybe um far away okay in respect of the indy contract follow-up audit whilst it is disappointing the lack of progress that has been made on the agreed management actions those management actions were really comprehensive in nature so each one of those management actions has um a number of points against it um i also wanted wanted to assure show you that we will be keeping those management actions under review and we'll be monitoring them and we'll report back to the committee once full implementation has been achieved of those issues the corporate director of adult social care has assured us that these are priorities for him and we you know he will we do have regular update meetings with him um in respect of the hospital discharge report this was a really comprehensive examination of the processes and following the implementation of the new locality teams the we have received a response to the draft report in between the um issue of these papers to to the committee and the one of the key things that they are looking to implement is a joint NHS and KCC brokerage system which will hopefully help to ensure the value for money point is addressed thank you mr reid if you want to come back on that or not um yeah i mean it's it's it's great to hear that on the audit side but obviously there's no corporate director or no cabinet member to answer those questions for us but thank you for your response yeah mr hood sorry oh i'm so sorry sorry um yeah so the cancellation of invoices as you know it has come out extremely high within the audit report um part of the issue for this was the guidance that's out there for um staff with regards to the distinction between a cancellation of an invoice and a right off of an invoice so we've suggested that firstly that guidance needs to be updated and promoted across um the council firstly and with regards to the number of the cancellations um there's already work being introduced within the finance directorate to address this issue with new processes and also to introduce a new authorization level so that cancellations do go through that because at the moment um anybody can request a cancellation without any authorization line at the moment speakers belief so we expect that figure to come down with those actions i hope so mr hood thank you thank you very much yeah um i also wanted to ask questions about the hospital discharge um entry uh it's really concerning not only for the financial implications here even though the part of this falls under under another public body but is it in it's imperative that we have a clear idea of where these costs are going to fall between our sales and the NHS and we've all got horror stories of relatives being released from hospital inappropriately with some times disastrous stories um from our our own lives um is it possible um also to have a bit more about this locality model because it's the final comment is that this is going to be um resolved through this so just just a little bit more detail if it's possible to have a bit more detail about how that what that will involve it's great there seems to be progress and it's it's really reassuring to hear from officers that this is this has been chased up and the other comment i had was about the gypsy and traveler audit um which i think is just incredibly good news because when that when that came to this um committee previously it was i think it was a massive shock to to members that that had that had um spun out of control and i think offices have done an incredible job in actually resolving this they've done very very well thanks a lot thank you mr i think you're you mentioned something very important because um that was a very difficult area and a difficult issue and officers done very well this is bell welcome yes thank thank you very much and thank you to mr hood who's um stolen my thunder really i thought i'd uh come along to the uh committee to um to mention um RB45 2024 and Russell's already mentioned it uh briefly um but i just wanted to to highlight this um as he said it's impressive and just very so very quickly i was aware when i took over the portfolio for communities regulatory services last summer that internal audit had undertaken at the insurance review of the gypsy aroma travel at resident service and reported in march 22 and that the processes for allocating vacant pictures were deemed not satisfactory in insurance terms and nine specific issues were identified um and out of the work to address these issues um a new resident uh g rt resident service pitch allocation policy is now in place and the situation appears to have been turned around uh with seven of the identified issued issues no longer considered to be in the no assurance category and the remaining two superseded um so i i know the committee's been aware of this but i just thought i i wasn't sure whether it would come up and i didn't want it to go and notice because it's um i i think it is quite an achievement and i i'd want to thank internal audit of picking up on these weaknesses in the system and also to thank Natalie Lideard and her team for the significant effort uh which has resulted in us being in a much better position on this so thank you thank you mr spiro are there any other questions mr kuber uh thank you maven chairman so um i i know there's been a number of recruitments that have taken place um in some key roles so i was just curious to to sort of get a um an early stage to how we feel that is aiding the internal audit process and and whether that's likely to be streamlining things if that's what have you mentioned i apologize because i did miss half of the introduction so i'm sorry if my question has already been answered we'll pick the question sorry was uh no not a problem at all so um it says here in the um section three on the resourcing um so the key updates are as follows permanent recruitment for the vacant audit manager posts have been successfully recruited permanent recruitment senior audit posts have been recruited to successfully i just want to get an understanding of how we feel um how we can appraise the sort of increasing the team and in in terms of of how we're able to achieve the internal audit um goals yep um yes i mean it's it's been a it's a key uh part of how we operate in um so compared to some of our peers in internal audit in local authorities there's huge problems in in recruitment and retention i think we're comparatively um successful in terms of how we advertise how and the amounts of people want to come and work for our section so that was on the back of a business case that we took um around this time last year to corporate management team and they were at some very successful recruitment um it's been it's absolute um priority of the section to look at talent management and development across all all members of the team and that's an important part and it's something that's played apart in a submission we just put forward to for um a national uh a national award on based on recruitment and retention so yet it's working well uh we've got uh there'll also be a little bit of turnover but we're in a good position resource wise thank you are there any other questions in which case we are asked to note the uh report oh sorry mr bets you were hiding we had a stroke for day and ever saw it sorry can i um just to make a point about the the common about lack of adult social care representation here today if the the the report the draft the internal reports that are draft and where the the audit opinion looks like it would be adequate then we wouldn't it we wouldn't necessarily expect somebody here from the director to respond to that until it was a final report and it was an inadequate opinion so um i just wanted to make that point they when the reports are finalized and if the control systems weren't that poor then we would make that i think otherwise i don't i don't think that's necessary effect criticism that's being made thank you mr bets and that raises another issue which is that uh clearly some uh areas understand that only when it's limited should they turn up um there were several points in these other reports which should have uh run alarm bells i think so but i take your point that they look at the audits and think that they're they're not limited and they're not only a draft that's fair enough i understand that but i do think then we have to make it much clearer from the governance and audit committee that if there is there are several reports in which there are several what appear to be failings certainly issues that need to be discussed then one should look at them and say maybe i should be there to answer any questions and that's clearly not been understood by every directorate thank you mr braidy just quickly come back on that before mr bets this time with kcc this came up within this committee of representation from uh a certain part of the council either cabinet member or director um it came up previously we mentioned our disappointment for not having that representation um that's why we're bringing up such uh a strong voice today because we don't want to lapse because when we do see um failures or concerns and we want to ask questions of somebody in that department be cabinet member or director we would like to get a voice back to the questions that we've asked thank you mr braiden are we happy to note the report thank you very much and thank you very much for that jonathan we're going on to the next agenda item which is internal audit rolling plan jonathan yeah thank you chair this paper sets out the rolling audit plan for 24 25 as a reminder to members we have moved away from a traditional set audit plan to a more flexible approach so that internal audit can be adaptable for changing assurance requirements throughout the year so for example just yesterday we received an email from a director in the council asking to look at specific area so we review things as we go along and we'll report back to the audit committee on an ongoing basis the collision of potential audits to be undertaken stems from the combination of factors which are set out on page uh 95 paragraph 11 this includes a review of the risk registers as we were discussing the previous uh gender item looking at secures uh securing ken's future and some of the assurance requirements from that uh extensive meetings with stakeholders across the council in every director whether that be corporate directors directors direct ship management teams and head of services and of course the arising scanning uh that we brought to the committee's uh tension a previous meeting we then ultimately assess against uh coverage required to provide an annual opinion and as you know we compare against eight themes of corporate health and then to overall see there's a sufficient coverage not all audits that we've released in this report will be undertaken as the nature of the flexible uh plan is that we will keep it under review elsewhere in the report the internal audit chat is included in the paper for approval at this stage we have not made any amendments to it from the previous uh agreement uh last year by members as coming back to the previous agenda item we're looking at the new standards to see where we need to make changes uh to the charter the kpi's or outcome metrics are also set out and this is the second year of such metrics which are designed to be more outcome and value based so ultimately the internal audit plan is designed to assist the council in reviewing key risks and what the assurance is associated with meeting its objectives and myself and my colleagues who are here today are here to take any questions thank you Jonathan are there any questions on this i'll welcome the charter of course i think this is strengthening uh the audit the internal to it considerably uh mr brady thank you just really quickly um obviously there's uh you can't look at everything um i'd just like to flag that one of the so arguably one of the greatest changes to CYPA so to children a young person service delivery is the family hub model um so i i wonder whether that's an audit of that is going to be looked at in the future um it is a big change um solidifying or moving together um youth centers and children centers and it's a big policy change so i'm not looking at the window i'm under looking under the bonnet of whether that can be audited in future see if things are going right and what went wrong and how things can be done better thank you um like let you say um there's so many high risk areas that we we can uncart look at so we always take that on board and it was part of the discussions we had within the director sure so are there any other questions from other members first um i did have a question and that was about regarding the resources that are limited uh i was a bit surprised i didn't see people management responsibilities and recruitment being prioritized um i'm not asking for a change it's your decision but i just thought i'd mention that Russell so it's it's identified on the plan um so i'm a reservist currently but as in things moved during the course of the year it might be reprioritized and moved to the to be in a priority audit i say i've got a meeting um with the HR um dvmt talk through a bit more detail what that might look like in terms of an audit so once i get a bit more idea what the scope might look like in that particular area it might end up being reprioritized and um pushed up to be in a priority audit thank you um if there are no other questions we are asked to agree the proposed rolling internal audit plan approve the charter the audit charter and note the key performance indicators members happy to agree thank you this case thank you very much uh for your work we go onto the external audit progress report and today we have Paris Williams here Paris morning morning everybody um so there are two reports i'll take the the first one which is the progress report um so sort of pages four and five or sort of the best summary um so just to confirm our audit of 22 23 is complete and that's all signed off in march in terms of our audit for 23 24 the audit plan has already come to um this committee and has been approved and the planning work has been complete in terms of our time scales and logistics to complete the 23 24 audit um we'll come in after we've finished our NHS audits which is early july with an expectation that we will look to report in november 2024 i'll pause there that that's all i really want to touch on in terms of the progress report we've done our planning work and we'll come in july to to finish off the audit for final accounts but i'll pause for any questions on that thank you Paris uh i saw mr koopa you have a question yeah just on the audit fees so the impression i get here is that the fees was having increased from previous previous periods based on the extra work i would just be curious to know how much they have increased by not to quibble it but just um it's public money i'd like to know thank you thank you mr koopa there's a fair question i thought i might get out of here without answering it but um no that's fine so just to provide a little bit of context the the fee is set by psa which is a separate body and that looks at various different things in terms of setting the fees um the reality is is over the past sort of five six years um there's been a growth in terms of the amount of work that's required um much of which is generated by sort of our regulators in terms of making us do more and more work um also you've got the code as well which expands and continues to increase the amount of work for um accountants in terms of what needs to be reported and then on us in terms of what we then need to audit so there's been a growth in terms of that and then just the reality of the market in which has been quite challenging um in terms of recruiting retaining auditors um so that market has become quite challenging if we sort of broaden the lens out a little bit i think the context of audit fees is quite interesting so if you went back sort of 15 years ago the fee here at Kent counter council would be sort of three hundred thousand pounds or upwards and so if you sort of take it in that consideration with quite large amounts of inflation in the market over the past few years actually the fees where we're coming back to is probably on a on an on an even footing so i think we're probably comparing it being undervalued in the market previous to sort of where it is now would be my reflection um i accept that but do we have a figure on exactly how much the uplift lift is immediately um as opposed to 15 years previously yes so the uh so the in terms of the council's audit fee of the four three three okay um so i can i can certainly dig that out so in our previous audit finance reports we would have reported what our final audit fee was for 22 23 it was in the region of 250 000 pounds just just out of interest but obviously the scale fee that we compared to there was a lot of fee variations built into that fee variation but it was around 250 000 pounds but i can give you the specific detail or forge you on the report that we shared previously if you would do that outside the meeting okay any other any other questions mr shot you know in which case we asked to note that report oh Dr Horn sorry thank you i want to draw attention to um the comments in the progress report about the value for money work um the report refers to Grant Thornton coming back with a report in November to this committee um but i'm very conscious chair that um the last report made a large number of recommendations um which as a committee we haven't been cited on their progress there were i believe 22 recommendations which were hard hitting recommendations and i was rather hoping that there would have been a report of this committee but um um my request therefore is that we have a report on the actions being taken on those 22 recommendations um to the next committee because of their urgency and deep significance thank you Dr Horn um i think that some of those will be we will be able to give you an update on uh mr bits you wish you were to that when mr what's was here earlier he made reference to to a report to come to the next uh critical on on grip and part part of that did involve those recommendations we were trying to put them together from not just from external audit from elsewhere as well so we should have an update on um i don't know if it'll be on all of them but but the majority of those should be available at that next report yes and i'm hoping that by that time some of them will be online so we'll be able to see them because they will be part of the system that we will have on uh in the group okay any other questions in the in which case we're asked to note the report are we happy to do so yep thank you very much then you move on to the next part Harris okay thank you so madam chair um as you know i have to leave so if you would excuse me i would leave at this point fine thank you mr oakford for attendance today i was a bit surprised you hadn't left earlier actually much appreciated thank you okay so we move on to uh the next item which is again paris external audit plan for ken pension fund uh thank you chair the next report is the audit plan for the 2324 audit of the pension fund um i wasn't planning to go into too much detail it's it's fairly consistent with the prior year just highlighting um what we've identified as the significant risk so on there is management override of control which is a presumed risk on all of it so it's not specific um for kent pension fund we also have um a significant risk around the valuation of the level three investments these being the ones which are harder to value with no sort of observable inputs and therefore requires uh several assumptions that lead into the investment of those of those investment types we also have the valuation of directly directly held property so that's about circa 500 million pounds and then um we've highlighted it on sort of page seven we rebut the presumed risk of uh fraud within revenue and that's through a thorough assessment of the revenue streams of the pension fund and is of standard within um audits of local authorities and pension funds in particular in terms of logistics um we plan to come in in july and again uh to complete our work by the end of september just to be clear this is a separate audit team to the audit team that's working on uh on the main council um but of course some of their work does overlap um those were the only things that i wanted to bring to detention uh from from the audit plan but i'll pause there thank you parents you have your colleague online Samantha Morgan did did she wish to add in no if anybody asks any sort of difficult questions i might refer it over fair enough okay um are there any questions mr part more yes um thank you madam chair um could you just describe uh on page 193 what you actually mean by materiality and um how you've calculated that please briefly thank you sure i'll i'll find the page in a second but in terms of materiality we sort of think about it from a quantitative aspect first there's obviously the qualitative aspect of it as well so from a quantitative quantitative aspects we would look at um basing it on the level of investments that's held so it's somewhere in the region of seven billion pounds so when we're looking at whether or not the investments is materially stated that is essentially where we drive that calculation from and it's a sort of a percentage that's applied and i think we've used 1.5% as as the metric there we also then the way that the sort of the pension fund accounts are sort of presented you've got the sort of the investments the assets then you've also got the funds how much they pay out to pensioners and how much they consume those are significantly less than the seven billion pounds it would be um slightly odd for us to use that materiality to do the audit work over those figures because they are important and therefore we base another sort of a lower level of materiality on the level of pen um payments made and i think that's a lower level i'll just grab the figure but it's a several magnitudes lower than the sort of 100 million that we've got there and i think it's important to note that if we do find errors above triviality rate we will report that within our audit report so we're not sort of only reporting on the things that are above that level and of course um any error we would look at it in its individuality and therefore if there's any qualitative context of that if we think it is very important that that figure is correct and actually it's misleading for that reason and that reason alone we would request that it's adjusted for any other questions at all in which case are we happy to note this report thank you very much thank you very much arith and thank you some answer um we move then on to item agenda item 14 which is informing the audit risk assessment for kensh pension fund and mr bets or is paris going to as i did what i did have paris wanted to say something by way of introduction and we've got some gator on um on teams so i'll just add a little bit more different actions paris did you want to say something first i can certainly just present it in that these are the standard questions that we will ask of any um management and we request that management present that to those charged with governance members here to make sure that you're comfortable with the responses that they are providing we will take those management responses as part of our risk assessment in determining where we've got risks or where we need to do extra work but it really is a management document and that also can provide assurance to those charged with governance as well thank you paris mr bets i know you you have completed the questionnaire and i'm assuming that the members have read through the questions and i happy with the answers if not please speak now and silence was overwhelming so i'm assuming from that there are no questions have you got anything else further to add it's a fairly standard form and uh i think i'll take it that the committee is happy to accept the comments that have been or the answers that have been made okay thank you very much so thank you very much mr bets for that uh for doing the hard work on on the questionnaire thank you paris that concludes the public business i have to ask that under section 100 a of the local government act of 1972 the press and public be excluded from the meeting for the following business on the grounds that involves the likely disclosure of exempt information as described in paragraph three our members happy to agree thank you very much thank you very much to new members of