Transcript

Transcript

Good afternoon. In the event of a fire alarm sounding, please evacuate this room by the nearest available fire exit, congregate, including the screen in front of reception. Listen to not be using any evacuation. If you feel stairs would be an issue, then please inform one of the council officers. Please ensure that mobile devices, including iPads, are turned to silence or turned off. I'd like to remind everyone present that this meeting will be broadcast live to the internet and we are capable of repeatable recordings from archive recordings. Apologies for absence. I've got three apologies. One from Councillor Robert Ian Williams, Councillor Brian Apsley and Councillor Carrie Harper. Confirmation of the minutes. Minutes of the meeting held on the 15th of May, pages 3 to 6. Just go through them for accuracy. Page 3, page 4 and page 5. Everybody happy with the minutes? Show of hands, please. That's fine. Everything good with them. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Thank you, chair. I declare an interest in items 5 and 6, family member employed by the housing department, non-prejudicial. Same here. John? Yeah, same chair. Thank you very much. I'll hand over to Craig for the work program. Thanks, Craig. Thank you, chair. Work program for consideration. Paragraph 4.2 outlines the changes that were made at your previous meeting in May. Just an update on one of those changes that was made at 4.3. Just advising the committee that the report in respect to housing management's tendency enforcement has been deferred and that will be considered at a later date. Paragraph 4.4 on to 4.11 just outlines some changes that the scrutiny coordinating committee have agreed with respect to budget monitoring. Therefore, the committee is considered and the idea would be that the committee could look at possible budget issues in Q3 and Q1 of the financial years. So that would possibly be the September and March meetings of the committee if required. On from there, what I would bring to members' attention is appendix 2, there's a topic selection form that was amended and dispatched to the committee and published online yesterday in respect of a future topic selection form in respect to the Harvard landfill site. So that's for the committee to consider and if they want to add that to their work program. I'll take any questions. I don't know if members wish to make any comments. Thank you, chair. Any comments on that? Yeah. Everybody good. Paul? Thank you, chair. On the work probe, on the budget setting process, the scrutiny coordinator asked us to take on board. Don't see anything in there for September. We're meant to be scrutinizing the budget in September and March. But there's nothing in the work program saying that. Yeah, that would be updated pending what your decision would be today. Yeah, sorry. And the other thing, the topic request form, I suppose you've all had a sight of it and you've seen it. Are we happy to put that on the program? Everybody happy? John? Yeah, I'm happy to progress with that, chair. Thank you. Happy, Claire? Okay, can I have a show of hands with that one? Just some clarity. Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. Right. Agenda item five, wealth quality housing standards. Implementation plan, pages 23 to 34. David, you're going to introduce the report and the officers go through it, yeah? So welcome, David. Yes, thank you, chair. Good afternoon. I'll just do a brief introduction and then obviously Lee Roberts and then we've got Tracy Roberts who is our investment lead as well. We're going to do a presentation and just run through the slides. Just to give members a quick overview, really, is to provide members with an overview of the new wealth housing quality standards which have now come into force during 2023. And we thought it was important as a housing department that we share some of the actions that's arisen from some of the work the officers have been doing behind the scenes. The new standard builds on the excellent achievements from the original wealth housing quality standards but it does place quite a significant onerous on the housing department to carry out additional measures which I'm sure the officers will go through. I think the main thrust really is the new standards which you'll see towards the back of the appendix sets out compliance and the date that we need to do this. And obviously the departments have set out a roadmap to progress and how we're going to achieve that standard. I think the caveat I'd like to say to all that, it comes down to funding. At the moment we've had limited funding from the Welsh government to roll out the wealth housing quality standard. There has been some meetings with officers and ministers about how we're going to roll that out behind the scenes. My concern as lead member is making sure that we get the money as a local authority to build on the success that we've done as a department to roll out and improve on the standards. So I'd just ask members really just to consider that following this report we may need to consider making representation maybe to Welsh government either through myself or through the committee to make sure that we get adequate funding so we can continue the roll out of the new standards. But that's all I was going to say. I'll let the officers run through the presentation and then we're happy to take any questions after that. Okay. I take it, Lee, you're going to do it. Welcome, Lee. Thank you. Good afternoon to everybody. The purpose for me really is more as council Biffle touched on is setting the scene today because I've been to this committee a number of times over the years reporting on the first version. I think in previous reports I touched on this version, I was calling it Welsh I was in quality standard two. It was coming. I think it's been three years in the making. It arrived last October but Welsh government have revised it ever so slightly and it come with us in April. Just a bit of background there. So the original standards coming in 2002. Welsh government revised the guidance in 2008. Everybody should have achieved the standard by 2012. However, there were a number of organizations including Rexham that we couldn't achieve it. We had no funding. The borrowing rules changed on the standard version one should have been achieved by 2020. There was a number of organizations, ourselves included, I think there was two other organizations that couldn't quite achieve it so they extended the deadline to June 2021. And the new standard, as I said, is going to be starting from April. So just an overview, really, the principles of the first version. I wasn't going to go through all of them, good state repair, safe and secure kitchens and bathrooms. So that's in the report. Again, from the standard, Welsh governments have changed it dramatically. And some of the quotes they've said in the sort of introduction to the standard, it's the biggest change in social housing for 20 years. Welsh government wants to lead the way on decarbonisation. They talk about the challenge of retrofitting. For me, the issue with the retrofitting, if you can visualise on a new build and houses getting built, it's easy to include these measures to get the energy rating. For us, we've got to do this after and retrofit, which is a challenge in itself and contract holders, you know, more upheaval, more challenge for contract holders. They also quote as well, the Welsh tenants are counting on us and tenants are the heart of WHQS. So it is very much the new version centred around our tenants or contract holders. The elements of the standard, there's 44 elements. I think in the report, there's 70 odd pages of the standard, 31 remain unchanged from the first version. But they've introduced affordable warmth and environmental impact, which is the decarbonisation, flooring and floor coverings, water efficiency, biodiversity, active travel and there's a little bit on noise nuisance. And as the slide says, a home will not meet the standard or will meet the standard when all relevant elements are achieved. So I just wanted to touch here on our programme as is. So that's the funding that was approved for exec board January for the next five years. And obviously we've got to carry on and maintain our programme, but the figures we've got there would have to be dramatically increased to do anything in terms of the decarbonisation. I've just included this slide and it gives members a feel for the sort of frequency or notional timeframe that components should be replaced. But the other thing where I sort of focus on decarbonisation, I want to sort of get it across that we've still got all the other elements to continue and maintain. So kitchens, I was involved in the first kitchen or the major programme in 2013. So in theory, 2028, a few years away, kitchens again, gas boilers 15 years, bathrooms 25 years, central heating systems, so that's the radiators and the pipe with 25 years, window replacement 30 years and electrical rewires 35 years. So we've got to carry on looking at them key elements as well as the decarb elements. This slide just gives members a flavour for some of the costs. So external wall insulation, just short of 20,000, on air source heat pump insulation 15,000, PV panels just over 5,000, battery storage just over 3,000 and that's the affordable warmth elements. But there's new elements as well. Water butts, so, you know, the £93, 228, that's tendered costs we've had recently and floor coverings that change a tenancy, we're averaging £1,200. So their costs that, well, as Councillor Biffle said, we just can't afford in terms of our capital programme that the slide, the previous slide. I'm going to hand over to Tracy now who's just going to run through some of the timelines that we've got to achieve and work across governments. Okay, so by the 31st of March 2025, we must carry out a whole stock assessment and estimate the investment required to meet all of the standard by March 2034. So we're currently reviewing all of the data which is held in our asset management system to ensure it is accurate and relevant and where we have missing gaps, our surveyors will be carrying out a stock assessment of some properties. We're also examining the EPC information we hold and we've appointed a company to carry out some retrofit assessments on certain void properties to help build a picture of the measures required across our property archetypes. We also need to prepare a compliance policy which sets out our approach to complying with the standard and the policy will be required to be signed off by a committee and submitted to Welsh Government by March 2025. By the 31st of March 2027, we've got to produce a target energy pathway for every dwelling and we've currently got a stock of 11,079 properties. The target energy pathway will show the current SAP rating and the environmental impact rating of the property and it will include the measures required to reach the interim SAP rating of a 75 by March 2030. And when it will achieve the SAP rating of 92A. The standard is to be reviewed by Welsh Government after three years and by the 31st of March 2034, landlords should confirm that all the housing stock meets the standard. For this time of the standard, reporting of the new standard has changed considerably. Previously there was a form completed on an annual basis which detailed the number of properties which have met elements of the standard. This time it's in a new format and we will have to provide data for each individual property. The data will include information on the property, household data of that property and assessment of each of the 44 elements of the standard. And we've attended one workshop recently with Welsh Government and there's a further two plans and Welsh Government are going to pile the data reporting with two landlords before rolling it out later in the year. So I was just going to conclude on the slide today. So we're very much in the planning stage, gathering data behind the scenes, carrying on with the programme. We're carrying out some affordable WANP work, so our window and door programme, triple glazed windows. We have got software called SAVA which, if you like, is our decarbonisation software so we can type in an address and it will tell us what measures we have installed to date. So windows and doors, the central heating, the condensing boilers, the loft installations, the cavities, it will tell us all that data and it will also tell us what we need to do to achieve the relevant A-rated SAP. The properties would still have to be surveyed so it's only a desktop software system. As Tracey touched on, we are working alongside Welsh Government, regular meetings with them. I think because it's in its infancy, there is going to be a number of meetings in the next 12 months with Welsh Government because I think they're finding their feet on this journey as well. We utilise optimised retrofit funding, so it's a small amount of funding, it's only 2.4 million and we're concentrating on the fabric first, external wall insulation, surveys as Tracey touched on. There is a lot of technology going around with decarbonisation but Welsh Government endures fabric first and we're sort of playing safe. Whether hydrogen will gather pace in the coming years, you know, because people are saying about air source heat pumps, I don't want an air source heat pump, but hydrogen could be miles off. So because technology is evolving, we're playing safe, probably just looking at, we are looking at the fabric. So just to sort of sum up really, there's a massive shortfall of funding. If we did have the funding, there's an issue with labour, possibly materials and supply chains to do all this work and getting qualified people trained up to deliver this work. So for me, it was just a case of setting the scene, the standard has arrived and it is going to be a huge challenge and funding is massive. And if you look at 4.25 on page 28, it does fetch everything into context and I'm putting perspective on the problems that they're facing. The Chartered Institute of Housing has identified a $2.7 billion funding gap in the amount needed to receive its social housing in Wales and then a $3.9 billion gap for retrofitting homes and fuel poverty. Now, we've dealt in millions before, but not billions, this is a first I think for the Authority and looking at every Authority in Wales, I think they're going to be on the same playing field, I would like to think. So anyway, it's going to be difficult, I don't envy you. So I'll open it up to members. Anybody want to come in first, Claire? Thanks Chair, you're facing one heck of a wall to climb and I think as a committee we're pretty much recognising that you're here, the money isn't there for it and I think in terms of the recommendation I had mentioned it at the Pre that Councillor Bistle has raised, I've said I think we need to be going to Welsh Government and saying we need more, we need to do that side. In terms of the labour, and you mentioned that obviously it's going to be more intensive, even just basically completing the first part to recognise what's needed. Is there any plans with links with Glyn, well, Wrexham University now as it is, they've obviously got built environment courses, but they also run the low carbon energy efficiency and sustainability degree on apprenticeships, if that was something that had been considered at all. Thank you. I attended a meeting last week and I've had feedback, there's a possibility of some free funding for training for some staff, I'm just waiting for that to come through. And Tracy's secured some funding for internal staff or surveyors to do training on EPCs, energy assessments. So, for us really to try and come self-sufficient rather than buy that service in, so we'll look at anything that comes in our direction. If I can go back to page 28 5.4, obviously there is going to be a big staffing problem, getting hold of the staff, I think we need now to start with apprentices as Claire's just said, and get as many apprentices as them at a young age, train them through and hopefully they'll stay with us and move forward from there. I'd like to see if there's a good report as well to be fair. You all come back? Yeah, we will work with the local college to see, we just got to make sure they're running the courses on your external wall insulation and your air source heat pumps. I'm not sure if the college maximum at that level just yet, but we will touch base with them. Thank you. Emma, you got your hand up, is that an old one or a new one? It's a new one. Yeah, it's just, it was just a couple of things that I wanted to mention for Lee. You know, thank you for all your hard work, I do really appreciate you know your help and everything. It was just a friend of mine moved into a new council property recently. And before she moved in the whole garden was just, it was a mature garden, the whole garden was decimated, and then grass seeds were put down, which I just thought, if this isn't like an active policy, wouldn't it be better just to leave the gardens. That would save a bit of time and money. And also, she didn't get any floor coverings either, she provided her own. She was quite happy to do that and I was just thinking if that's, if that's not a policy at the moment, perhaps that's something else that could be looked at. Thank you. Yeah, if I can take the address from you separately about the garden, what's happened with the garden, I can look into that. In terms of the floor coverings, we're just about to start with the floor coverings now. We had internal discussions about, do we survey properties pre-April or post-April, because it come in, the floor coverings challenge come in after April. We also were looking to carry out a three-in-one procurement exercise to cover voids, temporary accommodation and our decanted properties. I would probably say we're slightly behind with the floor covering, but it's going to be starting in the coming weeks. So somebody will move into property and will be offered floor covering. We just need to look at it internally where there will be some contract holders who will not want our floor covering. So I know there's been conversations internally to make sure we capture that at the right stage. The last thing any of us wants is we put the floor covering in and then they're ripped out by the contract holder, but you will hear more and more about floor coverings going in in the coming months as per the standard. I'm noticing again on 4.9, the HRA capital program is reduced by an overall of 16% and then we're expected to find another 8 grand shy of a million to do these floor coverings. I just, I don't know, soul destroying really. There we are. Paul Blackwell. Thank you, Chair. Thanks for the report. Are you in contact with any of the other councils in Wales that have retained their stock to see if they're in a similar situation regarding funding as us? Because I think we need to tackle Welsh Government with one big voice from individual authorities going and saying we can't afford this. And it's a solution really for Welsh Government and all the local authorities that have retained their stock to find out, to get round this funding problem. Because we had this with WHQS 1 and we simply couldn't do it, could we? And I think Welsh Government took that on board and we didn't do it until they changed the funding. My concern is with the older properties, we seem to insulate them to death and they need to breathe and they're sweating quite a lot as it is now. You've got a lot of damp in bathrooms and kitchens with the older, like 1950s stock. Because they weren't built for all this cavity wall and loft insulation and double glazing. If you're going to go to triple glazing and even better cavity wall insulation, etc., it's not going to suit them houses at all. Most houses also have alleyways and the coldness from the alleyway reaches the room above. And so I'm hoping if there is any money that that problem can be resolved with this. And on the latter one, as Lee mentioned, the hydrogen, I seem to recall that SR refinery in Ellesmere Port tried to see if they could have a nearby village as a hydrogen village and the residents there were up in arms and they've had to stall the project. I don't think hydrogen is a way forward as far as heating is concerned. So those are my comments, Chair. Thank you. Any feedback on that, David? Yeah, just to put it into perspective, if you have a look at the capital investment programme slide, go back to 2022-23, the capital programme was $52 million. Back in 23-24, the capital programme was $48 million. This year, the capital programme is $40 million. Next year, the capital programme is $39 million. And if you have a look, it diminishes. So I think the points that's been made today because of the high interest rates, especially this year, I think to be fair, we've done well to maintain $40 million this year. But the budget is really, really tight because of the borrowing rates at the moment. I appreciate that interest rates have come down today, but that effectively doesn't really have an effect for this financial year. But going forward, I think what we do need to do, we do need to make representation to Welsh governments. Every authority that I am, my understanding is they're all in a similar position. And the reality is, I think Welsh governments as well, although there's changes to legislation and Rent-in-Ums Act and all the policies that they bring out, however merits that they bring out, they have to fund it because the reality is that puts precious and onerous on us. And I'm not passing the buck to Welsh governments at all, but just be mindful that in a cost of living crisis and the pressures local authorities are under, at this current moment in time, we can't deliver the Welsh housing quality standard when you look at our capital programme. So either something has to give in our programme, or we have to lobby to make sure that we get advocate funding from Welsh governments. And it's a simple message really to Welsh government, we need more money if you want to deliver on the changes in legislation that you're bringing in. And I'm going to be quite blunt about it, it's there for the facts are there, the capital programme is diminishing. And it's not political, it's not having a go at anybody, but that's the facts of the matter. We need more funding. And to be fair to the officers, the officers liaise with our counterparts in Denbyshire, Flintshire and other parts of Wales, and they're all in a similar position. So I can't really dress it up any differently, to deliver on our decarbonisation of our council stock, we need more money. Thank you. I've got Graham Rogers first. Thanks Paul. Again, thank you for the report. It's a very professional one and in depth. But it's also very, it's also really a sad report in relation to Cardiff or somebody or someone's in Cardiff dictating. They need to lead by example, in my opinion, and as a result of that, we're in a cleft 22. We've got no money. And as a result to produce what's being suggested, money is the baseline and it's money we want. So I agree with some of the remarks that have been made by fellow colleagues in relation we should be putting as much effort and pressure on the Welsh government. Otherwise, we haven't got a chance in hell of producing what their requirements are, whether we're looking at 10 years or 50 years, unless we've got more money coming into this council to achieve better homes for the public of Wrexham. I'm sorry, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot. I could say much more. Many things have been said that I was going to say, so I'm not going to repeat. But that's my view, Chair, for what it's worth. Thank you. That's good. John. Yeah, thanks, Chair. Thanks for the presentation. And I'd just like to take this opportunity to congratulate the department on the work to date. So thank you. A couple of questions. The first one is 4.7. It mentions not not some homes won't be able to achieve some of the elements of the standard for various reasons. Can you elaborate on that one, please? That's the first question. And on page 32, it mentions 8C, 8C. Biodiversity opportunity should be introduced by landlords who own or manage verges, parks, grounds and open green spaces by changing the management of these areas to make them more wildlife friendly. Before the changes are made, will the local member be consulted as well, please? Thank you. Can I say I'll answer the last question? I'll let Lee answer the other question. Just in terms of biodiversity, I know there's another report on later on about grass cutting and grass maintenance, but just in terms of biodiversity, we're working closely with the environment department as a department to look at supporting our open space strategy, which was approved at the executive board. So I can't really broaden it out more than that at this stage, but I know officers from housing are working with our colleagues in the environment to look at biodiversity issues and open space strategy. And there's a piece of work going on behind the scenes, which I know Gemma Jones is leading on looking at how we can improve biodiversity across our open spaces on HRA land. So I'm sure that might come up later, but I'll hand over to Lee just to answer the other questions on what John said in 4.8. Yeah, the other thing I'd add to that is on page 33 of the standard mentions biodiversity opportunities, but their word is where appropriate. So they're not part of the standard as where appropriate, where relevant and not in every case, but the first question in terms of certain properties. So if I just touch on the decarbonization and the separate into certain properties that regardless of what measures we try to install, we will not get to a separating of an eight might get to a C might get to a B, but it won't get to an eight. And I think Welsh recognize that now, um, I sat down with Tracy yesterday and she touched on it in her presentation in terms of the data reporting the previous version, we would report to Welsh governments, the number of kitchens, the number of bathrooms, et cetera, et cetera. When Tracy showed me yesterday, the reporting for one individual property, it's horrendous in terms of what we've got to report on, but there will be properties that will not achieve the standard that they've set out. Okay. Joe, I'm sorry. Come back. Thanks yet. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. Just to come back just on the biodiversity as well, then obviously I know there's opportunities there and nothing is cast in stone, but can I have the assurance before anything is, you know, um, done within words that the local member has an input in this as well, please. Thank you. You okay with that? Yeah. Can I say the lesson, you know, the open space strategy and any changes on HRA, obviously we're not going to make any changes because we're working with our colleagues in the environment. So listen, I'm not going to touch on the report that's, that's on there later, but you know, clearly we work in very closely with the environment. Lee, you want to come in? You're okay. Joe? Yeah. Page 32. Interim homes must meet minimum SAP of EPC-C. Now, what is our worst EPC rating that we've got so far? Up to now. That's something that we just currently analyzing at the moment. We've got all the SAP ratings for across our stock and we have got some in our band E, but we're making sure that the data we are holding against the property is accurate. So we do have it. I would probably at this moment say we have got some in band E, but we are just double checking all the data we hold. And a second question. Landlords must make arrangements for a smart meter. Are we putting smart meters in every property that's going void now then? Is that what we're doing? We're starting to now in the standard, it does state a change of tenancy that a smart meter does get installed. And so we have doing that on our void properties, but as part of the data collection, which we've mentioned, that's one of the requirements. We have got a report by the end of the year on all of our properties, which properties have got smart meters for gas and electric and a water meter. So we've got to report that on tenanted properties as well. Just one more. 4B the kitchens must have adequate space for the kitchen appliances. Now, I went into a property in the last two weeks, which was just being handed over or in the process of being handed over and there was no room there for a washer or a dryer or a fridge, whatever it was. Can you send me the address on that, please? Thank you. Just in relation, so I think Jeremy may have been prior to me, but it's been over this Jeremy, so I'm going to carry on in relation to the smart meters. Does that mean that the contract holder or the person in the void property will then be tied. Yes, when the smart meter goes in, but I think there is a period that they do get tied in, then they can change, review it after a period of time. Anybody else? Jeremy first and Trevor, sorry. Yes, thank you for the report. I'm just going back to the slides. The timeline for achievement of the standard must be achieved. What would the consequences be if those achievements weren't met by those dates that were shown up there? I think what they're going to do, they're going to get all the data from all the organizations in the next three years and then they'll review the standard and review where the position they're in with funding because all of the organizations, all the local authorities, housing associations, we're all in the same boat. And to touch on Councillor Blackwell's earlier question, I do network across the organizations across Wales and everybody's moaned for the last three years. Some of the housing associations have actually said this standard will make us bankrupt. But, you know, I'm moaned where you could have one organization that has 500 properties, so it's a little bit easier for them to achieve the standard when you've got 11,000. But the timeframe, 2034, we're all in the same boat, so it's got to be easy for somebody who's got 500 properties or an organization as opposed to us in Wrexham who got 11,000 to achieve and have the challenges and the funding. It doesn't seem fair to me. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I've got a few questions, but it's easier, I think, if I ask them one at a time and otherwise we lose the thread, don't we? Sometimes we miss an answer to something. Thank you for the report. It's quite a comprehensive report. First thing I wanted to ask, on page 24, there's a mention of alleviating water poverty. And I wouldn't have thought we should have much of that in Wales at this time of year, but would you like to elaborate a little bit on is it an issue in the Council, please? In terms of water saving? In the actual standard, there is new measures in terms of water saving, things like water butts, flushing of toilets. So where I think Wales Commons viewers, if someone's on a water meter to save them, water saving appliances such as taps. Thank you. I'm not sure I'd answer that. I was wondering if we've got a lot of people struggling with their water bills and that sort of thing, but perhaps you haven't got the answer to that at the moment. Page 26.417, it mentions that some properties will not be deemed cost prohibitive to meeting the required standards. What's going to happen to those properties? Are we going to sell them or are we going to demolish them? What are we going to do? Thank you. No decision has been made on them. We'll have to survey them, see how far we can go or what the cost is to get to what Wales Commons and some of it will be 60, 70, 80,000 pounds. So a decision will have to be made on a small number, but we will have to look at them. Thank you. So if I can carry on, will you bear with me? I notice on page 27, we've had 4.5 million and 2.5 million. Is that proportional to the number of houses we have against those in the rest of Wales? Basically, are we getting our share? Yes, it is equally spread out across Wales. It's only a small proportion to what we actually need to do an additional grant funding from Wales Government. I mean, it's just an observation, really, that council houses seem to be coming far superior to those in private rental, but they're cheaper to rent. We've been told to keep our rents down. So where the money is going to come from for all these improvements, you do seem to wonder. One of the things I can see in that report, there's no mention of any housing associations, and obviously we have the nomination rights on housing association houses, and they're very important to the residents of Wrexham. Have we any idea, any numbers on how many housing association houses there are within the county? And a further question that came up earlier, any of the housing associations, are they subject to the same scrutinies and rules that our housing offices? I just want to make sure they're level playing field, because I notice they seem to get their voids turned around a lot quicker than we do. Whether it's because the standards aren't the same as ours or not, I don't know. I'd appreciate your comments. Thank you. The standard does apply to the housing associations. In terms of their voids, I would say that this stock is probably better than ours, more modern. So where we've invested and refurbed a number of void properties over the years, there's generally a newer build. So it should be just a quick turnaround where we've had to look at plastering and putting kitchens, bathrooms, heatings. There generally will be a more modern stock, but this standard will apply to all the housing associations as well. I don't so I can get the figures. Just a comment for me really. It's with reference to what Lee mentioned with the RSL registered social landlords. In my opinion, only in my opinion, we shouldn't work with them unless they work in true partnership with us and give us 100% nomination rights and perpetuity. This is a long conversation I've had with many offices over the years, and I think it's important that if we are working with them, they work with us sincerely, and I can't see a problem asking for 100% nomination rights in perpetuity. Because what happens is we don't always get 100% nomination rights. We might get 50%, and that would be on the first tenants, and then it's back over to them and they advocate them, and I do not agree with that at all. I never have done. I never will do. So I would ask the lead member to consider this going into the future, that we work with RSLs to get that agreement and bring it back to this committee or to the executive board or to full council. Because I think it's unfair that our residents, families who have lived in our wards for generations miss out because the RSLs who don't give us nomination rights allocate them properties to tenants from all across Wales and into England. It's not fair. I don't agree with it. I have a passion for it, as most people know, and I think that if they're going to be subsidised by Wales governments and have the funding, that there should be some conditions served on them when they have that money, and they should work closely with us as an authority. It's been an issue for me for a long time, and I just hope that in this term we can do something with them on the nominations. Thank you, Chair. Just to respond to that, mainly perhaps a question for the next report, really. Perhaps we'll cover that when we do the accommodation report, but we are working a lot closer now with our registered social landlords. I echo what the leader has said, but maybe we can perhaps touch on that when Lee Bruce does his presentation on the accommodation project. OK, anybody else before we come up with a recommendation? Nobody wants to sum up anything? We're all happy, yeah? OK, nobody on the screen? OK, I've just jotted something down. I don't know whether members will agree. I'm just taking into account the amount of shortfall that's put before the department. We're not talking thousands or millions, we're talking billions throughout Wales, so this is why it's going to be difficult to achieve. But I'd just like to say thanks for the report and the presentation. I'm sure members appreciate the challenges before the department, which are mostly financial, and understand the difficulties put before you. I would ask that housing just carry on, lobbying Welsh Government for more funding. I think that's very important because that's going to be the only answer to get things done. And basically carry on doing your best as you are. Hopefully fetch it back to us in about 12 months time. Let's have another look at it and give us a report on any progress made. I don't know whether members want to add anything else to that. Claire? If it was agreeable with the committee, I'd like to go for a recommendation to Welsh Government and notification to be sent about how the committee feels about what's been done. So along the lines of the committee having been presented with detailed breakdown of the WHQ2, recognizing this cannot be met within budget. It puts the HRA under pressure, which is not sustainable, and requests that Welsh Government make contribution. Or similar. Any other comments from members? No? Put them two together then. Is anybody going to move them? Thank you. I've had a seconder. Can I have a show of hands please? Ok. Thanks for that. Thank you. Does anybody want a quick break before the next one or are you all happy? Ok, so we'll carry on then. We've got the same places for the next one I think. Yep. Ok. Welcome again to agenda item number six, the accommodation project. David, are you going to kick off with it and go over to Lee after you? Yes, thank you chair. Obviously I've got Lee Bruce to my left, who's the accommodation project manager and also Claire Rees, who's attending, who's our service manager for housing tenancy's lead. So this report is to update members following the introduction of the accommodation project which we set up last year to try and address the demand for social housing. So the accommodation project group was set up. Lee Bruce has been appointed as the project manager and I know he's got some staff working for Lee as well now. The purpose of this report is to update members where we are with trying to address the demand for social housing in the county borough. I'm not going to go through Lee's presentation, but the report on page 36/37 gives you a flavour of where we are. It also on page 38 gives you an idea where we are on new build and we've got some examples there on new build in 4.26. Where we've got budget for this financial year to build six apartments in Johnstown and also Derwent Crescent on the former garage site. The other in 4.12 is the executive board decision which was made on the 9th of May to look at Commissioner Feasibility Study on Roasty site which is the site of the former Centre 67 site to look at the possibility of building more social housing on that site. I'm pleased to say that we have had the Feasibility Study back now even though myself and Julie had a brief discussion with Lee yesterday. We haven't had the full details yet, but we've had an outline of that and more work needs to be done. But it is positive news that we can look at doing something perhaps next year to address the demand for social housing. But I'll let Lee come on that. 4.3 also touches on the social housing grant and 4.5 also touches on the TACP funding which we've had from Wells Government as well. So I'm not going to steal the thunder of the project manager, I'm going to ask Lee to do a presentation, but we are making some significant progress in trying to address the demand. I think again though, it all comes down to money. We've allocated more money this year for social housing to build new houses, but clearly we'd need a significant amount of money if we wanted to make that difference. The Roastie site, we have got money allocated to that project, which was deferred to next year. We have got £9 million allocated to that project and obviously we're keen to progress that project as a major site hopefully next year. But I'll hand over to Lee now to do his presentation. Okay, welcome Lee. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, David. Just having some difficulties sharing my presentation, Greg. Thank you. I'll start the presentation by giving you a bit of an overview and sort of reiterating what David said in terms of where we're at in terms of the housing situation. So I think probably the main point to take is that the demand for affordable and social housing far outstrips the current supply chains. Our own waiting lists have seen an increase from 2018 to 2020 to 2024 of 53 percent. Bear in mind, that's our own waiting list. So the actual true demand is probably much higher when you when you take into account sorts of housing partners and other housing providers. The increased demand is particularly significant with single people, single persons. If we look at some of the root causes, COVID-19 had an effect, the cost of living crisis and the subsequent welfare reforms, the increased interest rates and borrowing costs, the legislative changes and in particular sort of renting homes, Wales Act 2016 made some significant changes. And also, we noticed a number of sort of private landlords exiting the market because of the additional changes and bureaucracy and challenges. There's also other legislative changes in terms of energy efficiency requirements to move from EPC D through to C and probably up to sort of B. So what was our response? Well, our response was to look at sort of a closer integration of housing services and also cross departmental working. So that's bringing in sort of other departments because there are severe budget pressures on adult and children's services in terms of county placements. And also increasing our sort of partnership working with other housing providers because we can't do this on our own. You know, we need sort of to bring other parties to help us so increase working with sort of housing associations, registered social landlords and more integration with the private sector as well in Wales. I've shared in the main report a couple of slides in terms of the housing register and also you will see the total demand by bedroom requirements. And you can see it's quite significant there in terms of the requirements for sort of smaller single person, self-contained accommodation. So what are we doing to address the shortages? So we've got obviously our build and buy program, our in-house program. So we've got our buyback scheme and that enables us to buy former council properties and also market acquisitions as well. And you will see that we're now back up to the sort of pre-pandemic levels. Last year we purchased 15 properties that enables us to obviously increase our housing stock, provide more choice to the residents and citizens of the borough and also address issues in terms of vacant properties as well. We've got our housing development program. You know, we've got a recent track record of delivering some fantastic schemes, in particular sorts of plasmatic, the remodeling, and as David alluded to, we're on site in Johnstown. We've got six apartments going up on a site that had been vacant for a number of years. It has been delayed due to a number of reasons. But I think that, you know, when these flats are built, I think it'll be something that as a council we can be proud of because it will be the first development we've undertaken using what they call modern methods of construction. So they'll be super energy efficient, they'll be cheap to run and they'll be sort of lifetime homes, which are much needed. We then got our second current site, which is in Derwent Crescent Acton, which was a two former garage sites. Again, sadly that has been delayed, but we're confident of being able to start on that in the current financial year and then that would complete towards the latter part of next year. Going back to the Derwent Crescent one, the anticipated completion date is probably May 2025. We are looking at a number of pipeline schemes as well. We've got a number of smaller sites, so we're starting to do some sort of desktop work and start to identify. So we've now got a sort of a pipeline and a regular flow of opportunities. We're keen to develop larger sites. You know, it's great sort of developing these small sites in and around the borough, but it's not really having the sort of impact that we really need. So we're keen to develop larger sites. And as David has already mentioned, we're currently looking at the site in Roasti, the former Centre 67, Greenacres, Cunliffe Centre. And also, we accept that Springfield is probably getting towards the end of its lifespan and we're looking at opportunities for that. So we did commission a feasibility study. It was due to conclude the end of May. Sadly, it was delayed. The draft is in the process of just being finalised and will be circulated and shared very shortly. In terms of sort of future developments, we are in discussions internally with regards to a number of sites and you'll appreciate that there's a lot of work that goes into sort of identifying sites and doing the feasibility before it even makes it to the consultation stage. If we were to consult you on every single site we look at, we probably wouldn't develop anything. So it's only when we really think it's got some legs and it's achievable in terms of feasibility, funding, and obviously support from a planning point of view. But as I say, when we're at that stage, we will certainly consult affected members through the appropriate channels. In terms of residents, they'll be consulted through the tenant and member partnership. And, you know, certainly with our larger schemes, we'll look at much greater tenant engagement. But in terms of a planning process, they'll also be consulted through the usual planning processes. And we do provide a regular updates to the tenant and member partnership quarterly reports. I've also attended a presentation at the tenant and membership partnership, mostly more than happy to discuss individual sites as when required. So that's what we're doing in Rexham in terms of our program. But then we've got the Welsh government and the social housing grant. That is the main capital grant that's made available by Welsh government to local authorities and its housing partners, registered social landlords, housing associations to develop social housing. So each local authority will get allocated a budget. It's a three year rolling budget. For the last financial year, the allocation for Rexham was 11.5 million that then is allocated in terms of weeks. So that's a three year. It's a three year program. But we have a what we call a program delivery plan. So it's a plan of all the schemes that we as a local authority are looking at bringing forward for funding. So we we administer the schemes for Rexham, but ultimately it's Welsh government to approve the schemes and allocate the grant funding. So it's eleven point five million that was allocated to Rexham last year. But actually the final amount that ourselves and our housing partners were able to draw down from Welsh government was 18.8 million. And I think that is probably the highest we've probably ever achieved in terms of social housing grant for Rexham. But, you know, a lot of work went into sort of achieving that sort of additional funding and it will support a number of new homes in the in the borough. The indicative budget for twenty four twenty five is the same as last year. So eleven point five million. Unfortunately, that budget still hasn't been confirmed, but we're working on the basis that that's how much will be will be allocated. As I say, they cover a three year period. So there's a there's a number of schemes that have been brought forward that were held up because of the phosphates issue and the adoption of the LDP. So these schemes are now starting to sort of put a spade in the ground. There's one in particular that members might be aware of in Plasmatic. The Old Wednesday Technology Park Housing Association are now on site. They're clearly clearing the ground and there's forty two houses and we'll be going there. And that's had a significant grant subsidy from from Welsh government. In terms of standards, Lee already touched on this. Obviously, they all need to meet sort of design quality requirements, Welsh housing quality standards so that they're high quality homes. In terms of what was delivered last year, there were one hundred and four new affordable homes delivered, which included two specialist units. And marks are touched on this. We do actually get a hundred percent nomination rights on all first lets. And Tracy will allude to the query with regards to nominations. It's a partnership with the ourselves and the housing providers, and we're working really closely with them to sort of improve that relationship. It can't be a them and us. You know, it needs to be a true partnership. And, you know, that that that relationship is quite strong at the moment, but ultimately, as I say, having associations have obviously the social conscious, but they do need to generate profit as well to enable them to reinvest because they don't just rely on social housing grant. They do commit a lot of their own money to these schemes. Recognizing the need for accommodation and urgent housing solutions, Welsh command to introduce the transitional accommodation capital program. And that was also in response to a number of crises in particular. You know what's happened in the Ukraine, Syria and Afghanistan, and they made available additional funding over and above the social housing grant. So in twenty two, twenty three, just over seventy six million was available, was made available to all twenty two Welsh local authorities and the housing partners to create extra housing capacity. And in total, an additional nine hundred and thirty six homes were delivered across Wales. That funding can be used to expedite void works, so brings avoid properties back into use, can be targeted towards empty properties acquisitions, so it can be used for existing buybacks, but it can also be used for sort of market housing. It can also be used to buy properties off the shelf. And I know a number of housing partners did actually buy a significant number of properties off the off the shelf. That can be used for remodeling and repurposing existing properties and also repurposing of accommodation and offices. This year, the last financial year, one hundred and twenty million was made available, so an increased budget and in and in Rexham, so Rexham Council, we benefit to the to the tune of one point six seven million, and that enabled us to deliver an additional thirty seven units. Thirty thirty two of them were long term void, so they would exist in stock, but we were able to bring forward the program to remodel and make them available. Five were actually new acquisitions who actually add in to our to our stock. We've also got leasing scheme wheels, which is a Welsh government funded scheme. It's available to all twenty two Welsh local authorities, and it enables us to go out and lease properties from private sector landlords. It's fully funded by Welsh government. Properties need to meet minimum standards because I know there are some concerns amongst members with regards to the the quality of the accommodation in the private sector and the the management of the properties with this particular scheme. The management is brought in house, so it's managed by Rexham County, but a council, our own in-house social lettings agency and all the properties are inspected to make sure that they meet the highest standards for properties that can't meet standards. Then grant funding is made available to the homeowner to reach those standards, and that grant funding is secured against the property by way of a charge until such time as the property. The end of the lease term, the lease has expired or the property has been handed back to the to the homeowner. We've got 12 properties on the scheme at the moment. Eleven of those were classed as being empty. And what it also provides is an additional option for us to send another housing option and is predominantly used by our colleagues in housing options to discharge their homeless duty. We've got 25 properties currently pending. A number of those are one bedroom units. It's probably likely, sadly, that some of them may drop off, but we're certainly ahead of where we need to be in terms of numbers. Part of my remit is also to work closely with other departments and also to bring together all the accommodation needs and look at sort of the solutions. So in terms of education to date, we've identified two properties within the education portfolio that would underutilized and vacant. Working closely with colleagues in voice, we've managed to improve those properties and repurpose them. And then now one is currently occupied and the second property will be occupied very soon. And we'll continue to look at other opportunities within the portfolio. Adults and children's social care, I've already mentioned previously in terms of the demands and the pressures. So we're working quite closely with colleagues there to look at opportunities. Through the social housing grant and through other forms of grant funding that care close to home funding, we've already brought on online a couple of properties. And in terms of the pipeline, we've got one further property in the pipeline and we've got planning secured and procured for the extension to an existing scheme. So this is quite a bit of work going on on there. And we've worked quite closely with our colleagues in the pips and housing options with regards to the refugee support. So providing sort of accommodation for those fleeing violence in the Ukraine, Syria and Afghanistan. In terms of our challenges, obviously, this has already been alluded to the budget pressures, delays in planning and drainage. Our portfolio, you know, our portfolio is fast. It's spread out. So there's a lot of work going on to identify opportunities within our portfolio in terms of what we've done to address some of these challenges. So we've identified the need for an accommodation project. We've appointed myself project manager and a coordinator. We set up the project group that meets every eight weeks. It's got a number of internal heads of service. But it's also includes a number of housing partners. So housing associations were currently rearing our council owned assets. As I alluded to earlier in the presentation, there's a lot of work goes on before a scheme even even sort of makes it on the horizon. So we're improving sort of the way in which we assess schemes, the viability. We're also involved in the net zero project, which is 21 housing providers in Wales producing a patent book, net zero house types. And I will share that, obviously, with members in due course. But that would that that would give us a standardized sort of house type and pack book that we can utilize for our future housing developments. We've got increased increased sort of working with sort of our colleagues in the planning department. So looking to make sure that we maximize all of the affordable housing through Section 106. We're in the process of consulting on the local housing market assessment, which obviously underpins the LDP and identifies the need for housing in the borough. We're working quite closely, you know, with our partners, as I alluded to, to address some of the needs. And members will be aware of the new asset management strategy that was recently approved and the framework in relation to the direction of the council's HRA assets and land and the need to reinvest the income into future developments. That concludes my presentation. Any questions? Thanks for that, Lee. Basically, it's the same as the last one. You're struggling financially, you know, and I think that's appreciated. One question, I note the figures for the waiting list gone up like 53 percent in 60 years. And I'm not belittling the work you're doing. And I can see that, you know, you've been a busy man, you know, and you know, the departments as a whole, you're visiting anytime soon that that will decrease. Or do you find even with what you're doing and the amount of work that you're putting into it, that that figure would still be rising? If I can answer that one chair, please. We've seen a slight decrease in the last two months in terms of the waiting list. And we're just under three thousand this week. But that is there's a lot of contributing factors to that. One is definitely the work that the accommodation team are doing in terms of the new bills that we've been able to nominate to and to secure other accommodation in terms of the buyback scheme. And also the leasing scheme. Wales has had a huge impact on being able to move people through from the waiting list. So that's helped. Having said that, the numbers who were applying for housing with us as a council are still pretty fluid so that the applications are not decreasing. But we are able to get through some more applications. Having said that, three thousand on the waiting list is still a huge amount to have on our waiting list. As Lee mentioned before, that doesn't include the waiting list that the RSLs have got and any who are choosing to have intermediate rent, for instance, or to to buy their own. So we still have a demand that we need to meet. And whereas we have no issues in terms of some household sizes, we do still have an issue in terms of one bedroom accommodation and those who need larger properties, four and five bed accommodation. So there is still a huge demand in terms of that property type that we're unable to meet at the moment. Thanks for that. Joe, then Jeremy. The initial holdup was as a result of the phosphates issue and being able to discharge certain conditions. The most recent holdup is it's a it's our first modern methods of construction. So it's very much new technology and we need to make sure that we get it right in terms of an update. I will say with some confidence that we'll be on site early July. We just got a few dots and teased across at the moment. But the start date is imminent. We had some work done on site previously. There was then a slight delay and I can only apologize, but as I say that by the nature of sort of developments, it can be complex. But as I say, I'm confident that that that you will see some some movements. And and because of the type of house, the flats that we're building, you know, once they start on site, you'll start to see it moves quite quickly because the modern methods of construction, a lot of the construction is done off site. And so it's like panelized. And then it's broader. Those of you who may have watched the T-NOS development, you know, that's harnessing modern methods of technology. So it does move sort of quite, quite quickly. You all right with that Joe? Yeah, if I can just come back. Can we tidy up the site while we're waiting? Because it's a bit of a mess at the moment. Yes, of course. Happy to look into that. Jeremy? Yes, thank you for the report. My question is about private landlords giving up their properties for Airbnbs. Is it still the case? Is lots of private landlords giving up nothing? It's still off a little bit. We did see significant we did see a significant uptick in terms of the number of landlords exiting the market for various reasons. Legislation wasn't the only reason cost. You know, the sheer cost of borrowing. A lot of the accidental landlords who may have one or two properties were probably heavily reliant on significant borrowings. And then when the economy crashed and interest rates went through the roof, obviously the cost of borrowing became significant. And tenants, quite frankly, just couldn't afford to pay the sort of rent levels that they'd need to be set, but it stabilized a little bit. Now, yes, the Airbnb has had an effect, but I think it's predominantly sort of. Yes, thank you. Just one other question on the new building. So we've got six apartments going in Johnstone, so they'll be all set at the prevailing social housing rent at that time. And then we've got four dwellings going on in doing present. So we've got one detached house and then three dorma bungalows. And again, the rents will be set in terms of whatever the relevant rent is at that time. But they'd all be social rent, so they'll all be affordable. I was thinking more cost to build. It's quite expensive to build social housing because of the various requirements in terms of the design quality requirements, the Welsh housing quality requirements. Our Johnstown flats, the indicative amount that we've allocated in the budget is one point six million for those flats for doing present. We're still sort of finalizing the figures, but it's about sort of three thousand pound a square meter to develop social housing, whereas market housing is. OK, thank you for that. Thank you, Jeff. In relation to report, just want to draw attention to paragraph four point five point four around the TACP funding and his reference to 32 long term void properties. Just for clarification of our own void properties or a private empty homes, as stated in the previous paragraph. And do you have any examples as to what the reasons were for the long term voids? Thank you. Apologies if that was unclear. Yes, they are our existing stock in terms of the reasons as to why they've been sort of empty long term. Unfortunately, he's not with us. I can only assume it's resource implications, but more than happy to take that question back and get you an answer, but it's probably capacity. Well, black hole. Thank you, sir. Thank you for the report. On the one hand, it's very gloomy, really. On the other hand, it's we're making a little bit of progress, which is always better than nothing. I got two questions. One is on the modern methods of construction. What's the longevity of all of those buildings? Because they sound a bit like prefab to me. And they were only given like a 30 year lifespan. And then we're having to spend a heck of a lot of money with them over the years since then. So I just like to know if that's that's the case with these because they've been factory built. I also like to know of on the air product site in Acribuyer. Things seem to have gone quiet. They've got over 100 social housing bills for Wales and West. And I've not heard nothing in over 12 months on that site. It was a public meeting about this time last year. And it's all gone quiet. The private development next door is cracking on. But the social housing in Wales and West, nothing's happening, it seems to me. So I'd like if you got any information on that and I'd like to concur with the leader on this, his comments on the nomination rights as well. We can work with these sorts of landlords to improve the nomination rights and get 100 percent going forward. Thank you. I echo some of your sentiments in terms of the the old airy houses and the concrete houses. But I think the technology has moved on a lot since then. Ultimately, time will tell what the longevity of these properties are. We're certainly working. You know, we work in a 30 year business plan with HRA. The expectation is that these houses will certainly exceed that. It's still relatively new technology. But it has, as I say, it's moved on considerably. There are some examples in Europe where this technology is being used. And you you look in sort of 50, 70 years anticipated lifespan. So it should certainly I think we've learned lessons from the past. But that's not to say that probably there won't be some hiccups along the way. I'm familiar with obviously the air product site. Yes, you are correct in that the developer of the private part of the state is on site. There have been some delays with regards to the social housing side. There's been some unexpected land issues in terms of some of the additional surveys that you do when you're on site. And hasn't covered sadly some anomalies that's in the process of being addressed. They're also working on the on the scheme because it's a huge scheme to 150 units in total. So whilst it will benefit from some social housing grant, there is a significant investment from the housing provider as well. So obviously they're probably a little bit nervous because of the high interest rates at the moment. But we have regular meetings with the housing providers and they're still confident that that scheme will be delivered, albeit delayed. Any properties that attract social housing grant? Yes, we will have nomination rights. Those that are financed privately, obviously that's a conversation to be had. But we are working closely with all housing providers, not just that particular one, to ensure that we get our share of nomination rights and that they are allocated to people that need them from the borough. Do you want to come back? In terms of the nomination rights, just to update and scrutiny and members, we are currently looking to review the agreement that we have with all our ourselves. Officers are currently doing a desktop study to monitor how many nominations we're having and from whom and where and property type. Now, obviously that sits alongside the allocations policy and you're aware that that is currently under review and we're working on that very closely at the moment. So our next steps in terms of the nomination agreement is to be in touch with our partners and invite them in around the table to negotiate and discuss a new agreement. Now, where we are benefiting is that we have invited the RSLs onto the accommodation project board, so they do sit alongside us so those partnerships are strengthening. So it's about that negotiation in terms of can we increase the nomination rights that we have already. The norm is that we have 75% on the first when there's a new build, and then we have 50% thereafter. Having said that, we have one RSL that gives us 100% at the moment, although they have a small amount of stock within the county borough. And we do have one site, which is the old high town flat site. We have 100% and we've negotiated that when the sale of the land, et cetera, went through and we have that 100% in perpetuity. So we will be working towards gaining a greater amount of nominations moving forward. Thank you for that because I want local people to move on to the air product site when it's eventually developed and I want that to carry on through the generations and not people from other areas of the county if possible. Can I ask the officer if you can keep me updated on the air product site so I can inform residents of what's going on as time goes on, please. Thank you, Tracy, for that. Yes, certainly. Okay, thanks. Thanks, Tracy, for that. I covered a few of the questions that I was going to ask. Just another part of that really to move on. I'm really concerned about the cost of living for those on the benefits and low to medium incomes. Rsl rent in a lot of cases seems to be much higher than the LHA is. So basically for members of public, it's the rate that's set for red. Some council is rent is relevant to those that are on benefits for universal credit or or housing benefit. And that is the rate that's paid flat or calculated and they get part of. So there's a lot of people are going to struggle with the affordability because sometimes the ourselves in a three bed home coming up to one hundred and fifty hundred and seventy five pounds more a month. And they're not getting that covered if someone is nominated for a property is accepted by the Rsl and then refuses it are they taking off the housing list is that class of refusal because they said they would go through on that. And that depends on the reason for refusal. So if it's affordability, then that's not held against anyone know. And we look at each case on its merit. So in terms of someone could accept a nomination prior to viewing the property. There could be an issue with access, for instance, or size of property. What the ourselves do tend to do when they send a nomination through is they they give us the property type, the number of bedrooms and how many people they feel or they designate can occupy that property. So they could have, for instance, a two bedroom, three person property or a two bedroom, four person property. And we will nominate accordingly so that we're not putting anybody into overcrowding position or under occupying position. And then we will look at the affordability and uncertainty in terms of homelessness. We cannot discharge our duty into any accommodation if it's unaffordable. So that is looked at a point of allocation. That's great. Thank you, Tracy. I've got one now, probably for for Lee. Firstly, got an update on the Tina. It seems to have come to a bit of a standstill sort of passing quite frequently, and there seems to be little going on with that. And it would have probably had the potential to reach one hundred and fifty percent of market value of what a two, three bed could be bought for or done on the buyback purely due to its location. It's been void now for months, undergoing refurb, very attractive property in a location, individual property. Do we look at selling these in order to buy two other properties, increase the housing less? In terms of Tino's. Yeah, there have been some issues in terms of Tino's, not in terms of the build. It's the utility companies that are having issues with in terms of connection. So they're keeping us updated on that sort of sign over to us. We're looking now at maybe July, August. But again, we are in the hands of the utility companies. But but other than that, it's really good to go. So we shouldn't be too long coming forward on that. Thanks, Paul. It's in relation to the penultimate paragraph on page 44. The question is whether you're capable of providing us with an answer today. If not, then hopefully you will do in due course. And it's in relation to the support of persons with high and complex needs who may be placed out of county. Do we ever do do we have a cost in relation to that, please? Thank you. I don't know the exact costs. I know it's significant. More than happy to sort of get that information and bring it back. But there's a lot of works of going on sort of behind the scenes to identify opportunities to bring those placements back into the border, be it through sort of acquiring properties and remodeling and repurposing or working with our housing partners to develop new accommodation for them. And I would refer members to the scheme on Alexandra Road, which is about to be sort of handed over. In fact, three of the units have been handed over. It was a former HMO and annex that was a constant cause of anti-social behavior. It was purchased by a housing partner and it's been completely remodeled and redeveloped. And as I say, we've got three right, three systems that have sort of now moved in. As regards the in-house, I mean, whether you can answer it with a David can answer it, right? Is it possible within the not too distant future you can fetch a report back to the scrutiny committee in relation to where we where you currently are in relation to bringing it back in-house? The position in relation to the special needs whereby if you're going to work on something coming back in-house? We'll come back to you on because obviously some of it's with social care that so we'll it's for the future in relation to where we currently are. Because otherwise, if we haven't got a date, I mean, we could be on this discussion in 12 months, 18 months, two years time. Yeah, we'll, we'll liaise with our colleagues in social care and we'll get some information and come back to you. Claire. Thanks, chair. If I could get an answer regarding the consideration of the purchase of properties, please. Yeah, sorry, I was going to give you an answer to that, but we moved on. So just in relation to purchasing of properties, what we are doing, we've adopted our asset management strategy now, which was approved at the executive board. We are looking at selling a number of properties to bring back into and obviously the selling of properties goes back into the HRA account. Myself and Julie have been having some discussions and with Lee earlier this week to determine what we do with the capital receipts that we get back from the sale of properties, which we've had some good sales recently, especially the, there was one in particular that I know in Councilor Teddy Evans' ward. So, as I touched on earlier, the roast tea site, probably because of the size of that site, I would imagine that some of the money that, you know, we get back from the sale of the site would need to go back. But it definitely going back into the, to producing social housing. I can't give you a figure really today of what we're trying to do on the roast tea site, but I did touch on it earlier that it is quite significant. It's over 30 units, so it is going to be quite a big site, but it'll also require big money as well. You ok with that? Claire, you want to come back? Ok, can I just ask one? I was in that from the start where HM Berwyn, with the prisoners coming out, and I note you've got a lot of emphasis here on refugees, etc. I was at the initial meeting in the Ramada when the Home Office sent a representative there, and it was asked then about prisoners getting released and would they get priority. And it was emphasized at that meeting that the only ones that get priority would be the ones that are from the local area. Now, I'm hearing different stories I'd just like to ask, just to confirm. Is that still the case, or are we housing people, ex-prisoners that have been released from outside the area just because the prison is in Rexham? Are we losing out on that way, or are the Department of Justice sticking to their word and said that they would sort of move them on? I don't know, I'm just asking the question. If I can answer that one, Chair. In terms of people leaving the secure estate, that comes under the homeless legislation and that hasn't changed. And therefore, anyone in HM Berwyn who comes through the prisoner pathway has to be a Welsh prisoner. And that's the same, that hasn't altered. Anybody else? Mark? Thank you, Chair. Can I thank the officers for the presentation and the answers they've given so far. I think it's a good report and I've got no problem with the summary and the recommendations. Why wouldn't you support it? But I want to really go outside this room and go into our communities and really live what we have to live with, with our residents who are born and bred in the communities. And I think we are missing a debate here and I think it's important. All about the homeless, I respect that. All about priority needs, I respect that. But what about the people who live in our communities who are waiting patiently and patiently and they're not being allocated properties? Now, I know it's about money and I know it's about number of properties, but we really need to have a debate on this subject and it's probably bigger than this debate today. But for me, you know, I come back and I'll just make a statement and then I'll move on on the nomination rights. Nothing less than me from 100 percent nomination rights in perpetuity. That's what we should be focused on. And Tracy's quite right. It is a mixed bag out there and I understand what she's saying and I respect that. But we need to be firmer with them and we need to put our point over and more or less insist that we have that decision. Now, we're also battling against legislation, which the officers know, and that hasn't been discussed today with the priority needs. And if it's going to go the way I think it's going to go, we just there's going to be no priority list. We're just going to be homeless, housing the homeless. And that worries me. Now, I respect the homeless people, but again, I come back to local needs and it's a tough one. This is not easy. So, you know, maybe, you know, I don't know what the committee wants to do on this, but I keep on beating the drum and it's all about money because there's only so much money. And we can, you know, I'd like to praise the lead member and the officers for the work they've done on, you know, Centre 67. And that would be a wonderful development when it comes on board. But we really do need to do more. And it's not a criticism. It's just a fact, in my opinion. I'm not convinced about modern build. I'm really not. We need new technology because we were told this many years ago when we were putting cladding on our properties and now some authorities in South Wales are taking them off because it hasn't worked. So when we embrace new technology, we need to make sure that it works for us. And you won't beat bricks and mortar, in my opinion, or rendering and slate or tiles. That's how it is. Now, you can have your plastic, facial boards, soffits and all new technology, that's fine too. But, you know, we should be leaving a legacy here. And I'll challenge anybody on this. You don't see the developers who are building around Wrexham, embracing new technology. You really don't. They build traditional houses and they sell. And they hold the price and they hold the value. And I don't think we should be building anything less than what the private sector builds. We should be building exactly the same, because our tenants should be treated exactly the same as a private tenant who buys a property. That's how I see it. That's just me as a person. But I did come back to this debate today. I think there's more to be done. It's not a criticism. It's just that we are where we are. And it does worry me that there isn't enough money in the pot to move forward. That's all. And I just feel that we're missing a conversation about local people, in my opinion. And we mustn't. We're here to represent them. And we should be fighting for their requirements just as much as we try to be fair and balanced on homeless and everything else. So let's not forget them, because that's what we're here for, to cater for everybody. Thank you, Chair. Can I just respond? I just want to stay focused on this report today, really, because I don't want to go off track. This report, to be fair to officers, is about what we're doing to address the shortage in accommodation. And what I was going to say is, really, the allocations report went out to consultation. It's coming back to scrutiny, I think, in September, subject to the Committee's support. So you can have the further debate on the results of the consultation. It's going to the Tenant Member Partnership. Then it'll go to the Executive Board for approval. But sticking to this report for today on the accommodation project, what I would say is, last year, we had about 4,500 people on the waiting list. Today, the head of housing has said that we're just under 3,000, which, to be fair, is an improvement. We're building new council houses, which I think is a positive. We're working in partnerships now with the RSL, with the setting up of an accommodation group and project, and I sit on that. The RSL sits on it, together with the officers. And we've got a number of projects on the Grove, which has been delayed because of the phosphates issue, and it's expanding. You know, you've touched on the Akremaya sites. We've touched on the Roastie sites. So there's lots of things that's happening. Unfortunately, the biggest issue that we're facing is a shortage of money. If we add more money, we could build more. But it does take time to build. Even building six houses in my ward and Joe's ward, it's taken four or five years to get where we are. And that's the reality. You know, we've got a feasibility study on Roastie sites, which has been ongoing for 12 months. That's how long it's taken to get some of these big projects off the ground, and we're pushing as hard as we can. I think this is a good report, really. It's a good debate. And to be fair, we're doing our best, and the team are doing their best to get money from Welsh Government and buy back properties. It's all about funding, and it's all about priorities. And if we add more money, we can buy more, and we can build more. But I think to be fair, we're doing what we can. It's a good report. And clearly, you know, we need to do more. But it all comes down to available funding. But I'd just like to reiterate the report on allocations and the report on prisoner pathway. And I don't want to drift into that today, because to be fair, we've had that debate on scrutiny, we had an all-member workshop, and we're coming back to scrutiny in September, which members can have a further discussion on. Thanks, David. I think we all appreciate the financial complications, you know, throughout every department, whether it be environment, housing, whatever we're all struggling with. I've got two more. Joe, then Graham. Yeah, I'd like to go back to Tracey. I take on board what David just said, but I'd like clarification on what you said in reference to Welsh prisoners on the pathway. When you say Welsh prisoners, are they Wrexham Welsh prisoners, or are they Wales Welsh prisoners? Those leaving the secure estate from Bedouin to us will be from Wrexham. But the prisoner pathway does relate to all Wales. It's a Welsh prisoner pathway. That doesn't mean that somebody from leaving Bedouin can't apply to us for housing. What that means is they wouldn't get a priority, and under homeless legislation, we would be reconnecting them back to their place of origin. Yeah, if we could just come back. Obviously, you could still pick them up on the homeless if they don't go back to wherever they've come from. Could you be picking them up at that stage on the homeless side? If they didn't, what I'm trying to say is, if they come down the pathway and they were from wherever, not from Wrexham, and you obviously would guide them back to where they came from, and they chose to stay in Wrexham homeless, what would happen then? Well, we would have discharged our duty by reconnecting them back to their place of origin. So we can't stop people from rough sleeping, but we will support them to go back. And to be fair, we don't have, I don't recall any that we've had that left HMP Bedouin without a connection that we've had rough sleeping or had to reconnect. So it's nothing that happens to us on a regular basis at all. Thanks Paul. Basically on the same lines as Joe, because I can recall Tracey making a statement possibly back in 2016/17 in Rithin Road, but she's clarified the situation so I'm quite comfortable whereby the statement really was prisoners with local connections. But thank you, Tracey, you clarified what I was going to ask in relation to Joe's question. Thank you. Thank you chair for allowing me to speak. It's very exciting that the council are investing in new properties and building for the future generation of Wrexham. But I just can't understand what the delay is, because we have private building companies on Roastie Road, on the A483, in Rostatlin, they're throwing ten houses up in six weeks. You know, they're all using modern building technology, timber frames with all the building equipment and materials that we're going to use. I just don't know what the delay is. Thank you chair. And will you comment on that? I think you probably have to look at where we are. You know, the houses that we built in Plasmatic and Nancillion were the first council houses we built for 30 years. The likes of your Red Road low homes have been building houses for 30/40 years. So they've got sort of the resources tried and tested. They've got access to obviously the labor and the expertise. So we're a little bit sort of behind the curve there. But I think if you look at the quality of the houses that we built to date, I think we should be proud of and sort of as we move forward in the new council houses. I appreciate that the leader has some concerns about modern methods of construction and I share some of those concerns. But, you know, there will be sort of energy efficient. There will be, you know, low running costs in terms of the robustness. Obviously, only time will tell. But we wouldn't be investing in technology if we thought it was only going to last sort of 20 or 30 years. Okay. I can't see anybody else. Nobody on the screen. Okay. We'd like to report back on the allocation policy. This is the recommendation prior to agreement. Together with details of negotiations with the RSLs to renew nomination rights. Anybody on the committee got anything to add to that? Okay. Anybody want to move it? Thanks. Show of hands. Okay. It's anonymous. So thanks for your attendance and best of luck. Thank you. Can we just have five minutes for the total break? If you can get back in for the near time pass as you can. Thank you. Welcome to the offices of the Environment Department. We've got Kerry, Darren and Hugh and the lead member, Terry. So welcome. Agenda item number seven, weed spraying and grass country. Terry, you're going to present it, I presume? Well, he'll be back in a minute. We can't wait forever. Thank you, Chair. I'll lead with the report and then any technical questions. And we've got the A team here. Thank you, Chair. We're here to inform members of the existing ground maintenance activities and provide an update on the current in-ear grass cutting and weed spraying progress. Our ground maintenance service drives on up to eight cuts per season. At the start of the season, we were still experiencing challenges as a result of industrial action, as well as experiencing the second wettest nine month period in over 100 years. Despite this, we have completed the first cut of the year in all areas and started our second cut. The planned cyclic activity includes the routine cutting and mowing of all council owned public spaces, including the HRA estate. Along with this also arranged to undertake ground maintenance on the trunk road agency on behalf of North and Mid Wales Trunk Road Agency and Welsh Government. And the delivery of single plan cuts of highway verges across the borough with further safety cuts as and when required. Our schedule will be based on a delivery target of eight cuts per season. Given the nature of this work, the delivery of this target will very much depend on weather conditions at the start of the season and during the end of the season. Just to bring things into context, what I see what went wrong. Last year's cut ended in June to August. No grass was cut after August date because of industrial action. Then we had a warm, wet winter where grass didn't stop growing. Then we were ready to go in the first week of March. We were down on staff and machines because of budget pressures. We didn't start cutting properly until the end of April and the ground was extremely wet and the machines were getting stuck and blocked because of the length of grass. Cylinder mowers are not designed to cut grass this tall. We had a crisis point where we called a meeting with the chief exec, the leader of the council and the deputy leader. Obviously that we didn't have the correct amount of staff and machinery was definitely not capable of cutting along grass. Everything was taking too long in time because of the length of grass. We needed flail machines desperately. After that meeting we had permission to hire in flail machines which are on the way, increase in number of staff to help out the teams. We are now cutting our second cut. I was around the ward just this morning. The cutting is not perfect by any means but we are getting there. Now we've got more machines and staff. The staff are willing to do weekend work to help us catch up. One of our experienced team members had a bad accident. The trailer fell on his leg and broke his foot. He had just come back to work just a couple of days a week. The weeds, because of budget pressure, the team decided to stop hiring the quad bikes. They hired the supervisors and bought them knapsack sprays each. That hasn't been successful in any way. We've all got problems with weeds. What the department has done over the last couple of weeks is they've bought heavy ripper metal wire brushes to go on the road sweepers. That will be around our wards within the next two to three weeks. Chair, that's the best I can do with the report today so I will leave the rest to members to challenge us. Thank you, Chair. Any of the officers want to come in or are you happy to take questions direct? Darren? Thank you, Chair. Just to add to Councillor Evans' comments there and what we're not here today is to find excuses. I think we all acknowledge that the condition of the grounds are not where we'd like them to be. We did have a significant issue with budgets and you will all recall the challenge that we faced last year to try and bring budgets back in online and that was a real test. In fairness, working with Councillor Evans, the leader, deputy and speaking to Ian Bancroft, Chief Executive, we raised the issue and the members supported getting some more resource to assist with us with our grass cutting programme for this coming year. The only thing I wanted to add for you to think about, and it's certainly something that we're thinking about and building on for next year, and we raised it when I met with the leader, the deputy and the lead member, is that we are experiencing climate change. I'm not saying that this is, it might just be a temporary thing, but I think this season everybody's seen, we didn't have cold winter, we didn't have the snap, which ordinarily would make grass like dormant for the period in the winter months. And there were parts of the borough where grass continued to grow right the way through the season. And I think we all need to be mindful that if that trend continues, I can foresee that in a very short number of years we will be cutting grass throughout the season. And that will bring more challenges to environmental services and the actions we do because you could, I can see that we will be carrying out winter maintenance on parts of the borough and work past the higher routes. And as odd as that might sound, we will probably be cutting grass in the lower areas. And bearing in mind that we're playing with the same amount of resource to deal with that, I think we've got a challenge for how we face up to that into the future. We're not here for excuses chair, we're here to try and make good a situation which nobody finds satisfactory. With the support of the lead member, the leader and deputy, I think we've got resources. You've heard of the plans to bring in weekend working, extra resources, new machinery and that will undoubtedly see a difference to the way that the grass is cut. Traditionally these first few cuts of the season always take longer. They're always a challenge. This year has made more difficult because of the circumstances which Terry described to you. I'm not going to go through those because quite rightly you'll just think that I'm trying to dodge that one time. I'm not going to go through those but I just wanted to add that. Be mindful, as we move over the next few years, if climate conditions continue and we still see cold, relatively warm, mild winters, we will all have the challenge to thinking about how we manage grounds maintenance through those seasons. Thank you chair. One of the reasons I see you today, I think, is lack of communication between officers and members. Through my experience, I sent about six or seven emails in over two or three weeks. I didn't even get a reply, didn't even get an acknowledgement. Other members, when we've been chair of this committee, suggested that we fetch it in. I give everybody the opportunity to reply but nobody did. So that's why I've done the topic request form to fetch it in. The other bit, nobody mentioned much about the weed spraying. That's never been absolutely perfect but we got by with it and kept the butter tidy, providing our streets which, to be perfectly honest, I don't think we have any more. I don't know it's difficult. You've got the same problems as what the housing department just before us have done. It's all down to finance. I'm glad that we've come to a conclusion where there's more facilities and more finance being sent over to enable you to do the job as you wish to do it. I'm not saying for one minute that officers are quite happy with the situation. I bet you've been ripping what bit of air you got left out the same as us. I've been threatened to be lynched by some members over some of the areas. There were two areas in particular, one's being done which are on safe routes to schools where children are having to walk into the roadway because of hedges overgrown and that sort of stuff. It's not acceptable. One was actually done this morning but the bigger one, which is causing one major problem, is still there waiting to be done. I don't know, it's the same thing every year with this particular stretch. Going back to weed spraying and getting that sorted out, much has been made of other members and myself about the quads, what happened to them and I believe they've gone. I did have a competition in the hallway last week or the week before and tried to explain what was what. I just feel that they served a purpose, they weren't perfect but I think they were a little bit more perfect than the way that we're trying to do it now, that's my opinion. We were asking Teddy, Teddy being lead member and a figure of 72,000 was mooted, that's why they've gone because they were saving that sort of money. I find that very, very difficult to believe and I'd like to see the proof of that, I'd like to see a spreadsheet with them figures on because we don't take bull, none of us. If you can justify that, we'll put our hands up but I think we need clarity on all counts. We're not here to give you a kick in, we're here to work together and just move forward. So that's my little bit, I don't know who wants to come in first, Paul. Thank you, Chair. I think you've covered most of the comments which I think many of us have as to the current position on grass cutting. I'd just like to thank the officers and the lead members for all their efforts in the last couple of weeks. Obviously myself and the Chair have had meetings with officers and the lead members as well. And it is certainly all hands to the deck when it comes to grass cutting at the moment. For the last couple of weeks you've seen the changing weather has enabled this Council to try and get back on track. We certainly weren't on track as what officers were telling us and hopefully we're now heading in the right direction. The weed spraying does still cause me some concern but the reality is the supervisors aren't going to be able to cover as much ground that the quads are able to do. And I think we do need to have some sort of recommendation around that going forward today. And my own personal view is that this Council needs to come back to its motto, pride in your streets, because I think we've lost that focus, especially in the last couple of months. I appreciate times are difficult when it comes to finances but I think the Department needs to refocus and embrace that motto once again. Thank you, Chair. To be honest with you, I take on board what Terry is saying about weather and that, but the RSLs, which has got grass one side of the road and we've got grass the other. Theirs is like a bowling green and ours is two and three foot high. So I can't accept the weather for a start. Now the other thing, obviously prior to Terry being, and I take on board Terry trying his best, prior to Terry being lead member and Dave Biffle was lead member, I'd admit there was no bigger critic than Terry himself over the grass. When the grass wasn't right he was on it straight away and I've never ever known it to be as bad as what it is now. I get calls day, night, emails, it doesn't stop. It's relentless, honest to God it is. Any comments of the officers or, go on Dan. Yes Chair, no problem in coming back and thank you for the opportunity. I think, listen I'm not and I set out and Kerry and Hugh are here as well, we're not here to find excuses, we're certainly not doing that. We're man up and you know me well enough to know that no matter how difficult it is I'll be here to try and tell you what we're doing. A couple of things, listen we acknowledge that communication needs to improve and you probably all had an email earlier today, you might wonder what the hell it was. We've got a new, listen I'm not going into the detail of it but we used to produce our work programme and you will all remember on the websites we used to produce the work programme and it used on that, used to have the schedule for grass cutting across the top and it came in the form of a Gantt chart, a bar chart and it said when we would start a job, when we would finish a job and where we were going to next. Fortunately digital accessibility rules for our website mean we can't present information like that anymore. So what we've now got is and you're all being logged on to it, you can obviously unsubscribe if you wish but there will be an environment whereabouts email which you will all get weekly and on that obviously will include where we've been with grass, where we are with grass, where we're going with grass. It will also include as we start our works programme where we are with road surfacing, I think it used to be called road closures. We've changed that now so you'll get an automated email and your members of the public can log into that, like they do with the bins. So you bin reminder emails so you can get that and you subscribe to it and periodically we will make sure we keep that updated so that will be automated emails to you all. And like I say any of your residents can sign into that so that should help improve the communication. Unfortunately and you know the score and again it's not an excuse, there's one supervisor that looks after grounds maintenance for us and he's looking after grounds maintenance and often he can't be there to contact everybody else, he does his best. We've got now a system and that's in place to try and improve that so that will hopefully and then as I say as work starts on our work programme we will be updating that. It's not meant as an excuse here but just to explain where we are. Last year environment departments and I spoke to many of you and the different guys overspent their budget by 4.5 million pounds. Part of that was because we had, as we've been doing every year, we're running over time, we're doing grass cutting outside of schedules, making sure we worked weekends, making sure we got it to where it needed to be. I think we were all called a little bit of that after COVID, the cost, the true cost of these things were evaluated and the cost of them are that you know what, we overspent by 4.5 million. Now I don't have authority to spend to that level and as a result I was spoken to by chief executive, I don't have authority and I needed to bring the budget back in online. Last year unfortunately we didn't quite get there but we got closer and the grounds maintenance service last year out turned with about £30,000 under budget, £30,000 under budget. And Terry explained we finished cutting grass last year, not through anybody's fault because of industrial action, we finished cutting grass for everybody in August. If we'd have carried on to the end of the season with our same practices, I can assure you we'd have overspent by about £300,000. We have some resources now so we can address that, we won't get in that place again, let's hope. We changed the way that we do weed spraying for two reasons. First reason was, do you know what, you can't weed spray in the wet and the start of the season when you need to weed spray and it rained. I'm not using that as an excuse, I'm just saying that's what we did and what happens with the quads is they can't go out when it's wet and it's difficult when it's windy. Because the weed spray, the chemical we use, you've had it in this committee before, there are some areas of the borough we can't use it on, we can't use it near playgrounds, we can't use it near water courses and we can't use it near schools. So we have to be really cautious about what we're doing. The quad bikes, when they used to run, they used to sit in the shed and they would go out on the fine days and they would weed spray. Bearing in mind, it was very wet at the start of the season and also those people sitting on the quad bikes, when they're not sitting on the quad bikes, they're out cutting grass. So we had a challenge, we were starting late, Terry's explained that, we were starting late, we had a really wet start and we couldn't have gone with the chemical. And we made a decision, do you know what, do we interrupt this? And I think we can confirm it and we don't hide anything. I think to hire in two quads, is it £40,000, £18,000 each Terry? I think it's £18,000 for the two. So £18,000 for the two, that's to hire in a quad for the season. We've got to fuel them up, we need to pay for the spray and then you need two men sitting on them for half the year. So it doesn't take a genius to work out why those and what the costs are, because that's what they are. Hiring the quads is the cheap bit. Putting the resources on is expensive and at the moment, because of the problems we had with grass, we'd have had to stand two men down, that's almost a gang. So whilst everybody was crying out about we need to move quicker, we need to get better quality and I absolutely understand it, be assured, none of us have lost the pride in your street. We're always thinking about how we can squeeze more out of everything we do and we've still got that, we are absolutely committed to it. We weren't making a saving when we changed the way we'd weed spray, we were avoiding spending money we didn't have. And that's the hard facts, I didn't have the budgets to go out to spend circa £60,000, £70,000 on weed spraying in that fashion and lose two men from grass cutting. The way we changed it was, we asked our caretaker teams, those reactive gangs that on most of the week are potholing, take a bit of time out in the spring to go and use the knapsack and weed spray. And we've got new kits and they've got brush heads for the streamers and all that and hoes, do you know what, we even use hoes, hoeing them out and getting rid of them. Because quite often in the past when we've weed sprayed, understandably we don't have time to wait for the weeds to die and we have to go and clear them because they look unsightly. So we're trying different things and we are really trying to find ways to avoid us spending money that we didn't have and dropping resources cutting grass, that's facts. It's not me trying to hide behind anything, that's how it works, that's what it is, there's 30 men doing that activity. I think the other thing which a couple of you mentioned is about verge cutting. Verge cutting ordinarily for us can't start at the early parts of the year because there are regulations about bird nesting and hedges and all those things that you all know about. They might frustrate you but they're rules and so we have to abide by it and ordinarily our verge cutting usually starts around the time when cyclic maintenance kicks off on the bypass. When they do the cyclic maintenance on the bypass they do the verge cuts and the cleaning gullies and all that and then we usually carry on our verge cutting and it takes about 10 weeks. Go back to last year, after the bypass maintenance unfortunately we went on strike and a lot of verge cutting just didn't take place. So the verge are already in a difficult place. They have grown like hell and we all see that if you cut the grass at home you all know you're cutting grass every week, sometimes twice a week just to keep on top of it. So I think, I'm not excuses, I'm just telling you where we are. Now we've started cutting verge mowing, verge mowing has started, it's not late, it's started, in fact it started early because the bypass work doesn't start for a couple of weeks yet. We've started to try and steal a march on it but while the tractor's doing that it's not doing your big areas of community grass cutting. So we have to find that balance and often it's a balance and I'm not saying for one minute we get the balance exactly right but what we do is we try our best. And I think we'll always try that. I've spoken to colleagues current colleagues and past colleagues to try and think about how we can do this better. I'm being absolutely truthful. If I make a wrong call I'll stand by it and I will absolutely put it back. I think when I met you Paul the other week I said at the time we couldn't do it. But we're not going to stop thinking about how we treat weeds and if we need to get quads in for a month just to give it a blitz we'll get quads in for a month. We've now got some extra resource which enables us to get a bit more flexibility with the grass because we've got an extra team, we've got some overtime working and we've got some new machinery and we were desperate for new machines. Some of our ride-ons are 16 plates so they're eight years old. There isn't enough money in the budget prior to the intervention to renew them as often as we would like. And we've got some different kit now because cylinder mowers can't cope with the conditions of grass. I tell you what if we carry on cutting grass and it's a warm dry summer we will go back to the cylinder mowers because they give you a nicer finer finish. But again it's as the seasons change and we need to move on and get flails and we've got some we're expecting them probably at the end of this week but certainly by next week. We've got little tractors that you'll see bombing around now with mulching machines on the back of them that we've had from grants and we're using them to make them effective as we can. So we continue to do all that work. I think I've picked up everything. Verge cutting will start and continue and yeah we've done things like this morning. And listen it was planned a couple of weeks ago you won't believe me because you'll think I did it this morning because I was coming here this afternoon. But there was traffic management required to cut the A525 and to cut Bumblelink Road and that has to be planned and booked so they were on that five o'clock this morning. I was down there pretty soon after that myself looking what had happened to try and get on top of it. Work's being done around the creme, around the top of the wurn, down through into bursum and the verge cutting will continue. We've done some safety work. We always do safety work around visibility splays. Sidacht is a really good example of that. The dual carriagery there because of the alignments we have to go in and do it early. But we will be closing, we will be tagging on the A541 verge mowing. Cyclic maintenance alongside the A483 so when they finish on the A483 they go and do our dual carriagery road. So that includes the A541, it includes Stannaport Link Road and it includes the little stretch at Reuben. And they will all follow in due process. It's not because we're late, it's because the grass is growing and we didn't get round it all last year. That's where we are. We don't cut hedges. I have to remind you that. Generally hedges are not ours to cut, they're landowners. But we're going round and doing it to try and make the path safe. Chair I can't say no more but I'm happy to answer any more questions if you haven't. I'm just going to nitpick a little bit on some of your spiel. 18,000 pounds to hire two quad bikes. I've done a bit of research, you can buy them less than that. No disrespect, you go to the right place and they're there. There's plenty of them. And the ones that are quality that will do the job and give you no problem. It was just that 70 odd thousand. I'd just like to know how that adds up, where did it come from? It worries me when I see that sort of figure and I can't work that out myself. I know I've only got five fingers in each hand and ten toes in total. But I'm not soft when it comes to money, I'm sure I can add that up. And I'll use round numbers, we can give you details if you like. 18,000 pounds hiring two new quads. Listen, it gives me no pleasure because I know that the council has to do things through our procurement channels and where we have to get stuff from. And we test the market, you know what happens, we go out, we do that and the prices are as they come back to us. So that's 18,000 for two quads and I absolutely expect if you're going to talk to a local dealer he might be able to sell you one. But that's the price we've got. Grass, weed spraying, generally grass cutting traditionally takes place six months of the year. Two men, let's say they, you know, I don't want to talk salaries, but you know, broadly speaking, if they're earning 30,000 pounds and there's two of them and you're using them for half a year. That's 30,000 pounds on top of your quad bike, so that's 18 plus 30 is 48. You fuel them and you add your chemicals and all the recording that you need to do. You know we have to record, we have to keep logs of everywhere we sprayed. Let me tell you, that's what it costs and nobody likes that cost, nobody hates it more than me when they have to sign off the bill that says just running that. 30,000 pounds for two men for half a year plus a quad hire, plus materials, plus record keeping and all the logs we have to do. You can quite easily get to 70, 100,000 pounds if we know you where you are. That's a reality, now I accept, you know, others might do that. We have to do stuff in the, we operate in a commercial world with a public service and our accounts have to be transparent and you can see those and I'm happy to share them with you. It's not a bluff, that's what it costs, so that's why it's made up. There's nothing more complicated than that, but as well as that, the two men that you've got riding the quads. If they ride in the quads they're not cutting the grass and that was the challenge we were in at the start of the season. We needed more men on the backs of lawn mowers, driving streamers, moving tractors to cut grass because we weren't going fast enough nor were we doing the quality you would all like us to do. Those are the challenges we have, yeah we're breaking it now, we're breaking it, the resources are really helping and let me tell you the machinery that we've got now coming in will make that a lot easier. But it's tricky. Just before, and I'll give up after, you quoted £30,000 for two men on the quads. But them men are already employed, if they're not doing the quads they're doing something else, if they're not on the quads they'd be around with a knapsack. So that little bit is just, you've got the men, you're not employing more men to cover that, you're not really paying the wages anyway. Yeah I know, and that's the issue chair but they've still got to be paid haven't they, and they're still out of my budget, they're still a lump sum budget for salaries. And I know it's paid for, but somebody's got to pay for it. So if they're predominantly street scene, so they can do whatever, you know they're multitasking as you know and you can have bins today, recycling tomorrow, grounds the next day, highways. They still need paying, and out of the street scene budget we pay for grounds 30 men broadly. And 30 men, some are on different rates and they're not going into the detail of their salary, it's not a part two report this. I used some round numbers just to give you an illustration of where it's at. That's where it's at chair, and yes those men are being paid for, they've been paid for out of the grounds maintenance budgets. So if we were to pay for them out of the grounds maintenance budgets and have them riding quads, that's what happens because they wouldn't be doing anything else. So they've still got to pay them when they're riding the quads haven't we. So they're still, and what it means is as well as that, we then have nobody riding the tractors and the ride ons. So in round terms that's the sort of value that you would put, if you put two men on the back of two quads for six months in the year in all the conditions that we have, that's what it would cost you. This doesn't work like that transparently, I'm just trying to illustrate to tell you how we build up those type of costs. Of course the parts are salaried, they're salaried staff and we're paying them, and as you know the 30 men we have on grass, 30 men they've got 30 days leave each round numbers, and so for a large part of the year resources are depleted anyway. Machinery always breaks down, the other thing I forgot to mention, we send machinery away to get fixed because we lost our plant mechanic many moons ago when the previous chief officer was in environment, we lost the plant mechanic. We're now recruiting for the plant mechanic because we acknowledge we can't be, the down time in sending machinery away is a waste of time, but I think one day last week and we talked to Terry Daly, we had six ride ons off and both tractors out of 11 ride ons and no tractors that left us with. We got them going the next day, but that's what happens with resources and what happens with men, so the issue with weight spraying was we could have interrupted the grass cutting, but that's the sort of money it costs and if we replace the men we've got riding the quads, I'd have to find 30 grand to put somebody else there. So that's what happens and that's the way the budget builds up and that's why, this time last year I was facing a different challenge about running over budget and I couldn't do that again, that wouldn't be professional and you would be talking to me about other challenges then. So I'm happy to have the challenge and I'm happy to tell you what we do and do it transparently and I try and tell you exactly where we are with it, but those are reality and it's an illustrative figure to give you an idea about what happens with quads. I'm not sure whether we will ever go back to quad riding if I'm honest, climate is such, you know even this week we've had rain, what on earth do you do? Because you can't and as soon as you put it on if the rain catches it too early it hasn't had time to absorb into the leaves, the weeds don't die. And that's the situation we've had virtually all season. We've had one week I think when it was really dry and we could have done some weed spraying and they are knapsacking but they're not quad biking. That's not saying we're never going to do it again but I do think it will be a challenge as the climate changes and we shift away from just cutting grass 6 months of the year and plan for how we're going to do it across the whole 12 months, we'll have to change. Just one more thing, it was mentioned in call over last week that the weeds decreased growing from July on and I take that on board, that is a fact which I agree with. But there are many weeds about a meter, two meters high that are still growing now and have been treated and it's July next week so I'm not, it's a difficult one, I'm trying to be as pragmatic as possible. What plans do you have for next year to solve this problem because I wouldn't like to be sitting here again in 12 months time looking at the weeds the size they are and the lack of progress. With the dealing with them. Okay chair so I think the challenge that was laid at my door and listen I'm working with Terry, Mark and David, I spoke to them, they acknowledged that there was a challenge and we got some extra resources but we had a long discussion on that day and we talked about where we need to be for grounds maintenance and I shared what I shared with this committee about where I think we need to get to. So what we're doing this year, you're probably aware of it, we're mapping accurately all the areas of grass that we cut and we broadly cut I think it's about 4 million square meters in one cycle. Add to that 1.1 thousand kilometers of verges we cut. So we're mapping all that out so we've got a better idea about where we go. We do have some plans for trying to manage weeds but they're interrupted these days by playgrounds, schools, water courses so we have to be really careful we can't go carte blanche as we used to drive down the channel with a quad bike and spray that's really difficult because you've got not a lot of control. We have got now, and Terry give you a flavor of that, our road sweepers, you can get a heavy duty ripper brush that fits on the road sweepers. You have to have a special type of road sweeper to deal with the heavy duty nature of that but they will pull out mature weeds and we've got one of those coming in now and that will be here imminently. We're just waiting for that to just arrive and that will help us to get around that. What do we do with weeds next year? Listen I think it's a challenge, I think it's going to be a mixed bag of all sorts of different approaches to try and get it better. It doesn't give us any pleasure and I travel around most days I'm out and about with supervisors, Kerry and I are out, I know Terry's been doing quite a lot of work running around and he talks to us daily and into the evening. We're often sharing texts throughout the night talking about what we're trying to do to make it better. The weeds are a challenge and I don't know what the answer is, years ago we used to have a sprayer that would attach to and as the large mechanical sweeper would go along it would spray the weeds as well. Unfortunately we have more controls and they're tighter controls on chemical use these days. So we have got a real challenge for it, we're trying different things so that we don't take away grounds maintenance resource and we tried it to use our reactive gangs to do some weed spraying because we knew grounds maintenance resource were precious this year. We needed them on the back of lawnmowers and streamers so standing them down to change especially as it had been so wet is tricky but I honestly think that even if we get quads for large parts of the week they won't move. So that's what we have to be mindful of, we're not refusing to get quads and not stubborn if we need to get quads and we think it's the thing to do. As I say for a month running quads if we've got a dry spell coming we can do that and there would be no problem with it but these are the sorts of challenges and we're trying to weigh up all the risks and all the different things you asked me for. Because I can be here talking grass today and I think we can be talking waste the other day in a workshop and no doubt in a week or two I'll be talking about roads and repairing roads and all that sort of stuff. It's a balanced chair, I'm not asking for any sympathy I'm just trying to be honest and tell you exactly where we are. And I'm not doubting that for one minute, you always have been. Joe? Can I just come back? In reference to the men that you've got on the grass cutting and the men you've got on the bins and whatever you do, you've got the right quarters for the right staff. You've had men on the quads since the year dot, before you even come as chief officer doesn't. Nothing's changed, the staff's there, you've got the quota, it's not about, well if they're not on the quads they'll have to go on the grass. Obviously you're going to move them on the grass if the bikes have broke down, aren't you? But you didn't need them to take them off the quads to put them on the grass, other than you're behind. And secondly, in reference to hedge cutting, birds and whatever, and I understand that, but health and safety in the legislation, if there's a health and safety issue you can cut the hedge. So I'll just leave it at that, thank you very much. Yeah, listen, I don't disagree with anything. Be assured, if there's one thing I am pretty aware of is highway law, and one thing I'll never do is, let me assure you, if we fall foul of highway law, it's me that's in jail. And I don't want to go to jail, so I always make sure that I get that covered off. We always do safety cuts and we will always be in there to do that. What you need to remember is, we have a planned cycle of highway verge maintenance that covers off our statutory duty. It's the same as the trunk road agency, they start cutting grass come July no matter what. They do that because that covers off their statutory duty. They need to do extra to help, that's fine, but they won't be falling foul of highway law because it's planned, it's cyclic, that's why it's the nature of what it is. We always do that, we will continue to do that. We'll have a plan for our highway maintenance verge cutting because that keeps us out of jail. The extra bits that we do, we do. But we can't just go willy nilly to do reactive switching around everywhere because as you know, and I tell you every time I come, whether it's grass or roads, reactive work costs far far more than planned work. So what you do is you plan it out, you plan out when you're doing your highway safety verge cuts because that keeps you out of jail, it satisfies the statutory requirements that we have. It's not a health and safety at work matter, it's a highway safety matter under the highways act. And I am absolutely aware of that because I don't want to go to jail. I'm the accountable officer for the highway authority. It's not you guys, it's me and I don't want to go to jail so make sure we've got that covered. So be assured I know what I'm doing with highway verge maintenance and if we need to intervene early, as we do in Sedath, we do it every year we have to intervene early. We had one issue on a footpath on Rumble Link Road near New Broughton where we did some hand-streaming to make sure that footpath entry was clear and we'll always pick up bits and pieces. We'll always do that to keep the safety question down and where we need to, if we need to serve notice on adjoining land owners to keep their hedges down, we will. But listen, what we've been trying to do is just move it along and get it done, but I absolutely know that and yeah, you're right, we have got the portrait of men. The challenge I think we've got and what you guys have seen and what the lead member, the leader and deputy are both here, they acknowledge we probably haven't got enough for the demands which you'd like to see. And I respect that, we've got some more resource now. The question we've got as a collective working together is, can the council afford the standards that you'd like? That's a question as we move into next year, how can we do it? I've estimated we will need another lump sum to add to the budgets next year, which will become a pressure within the environment where we're all trying to save money to the tune of 28 million. So, you know, there's lots of challenges we will face, but I think it's been acknowledged because the grass just doesn't have a quiet spell this year, has not stopped. Hey, listen, you know what, you probably know, I live up on the side of Gwynevrin, on the side of the hill there and it did stop growing, my grass stopped growing. But I can assure you, probably in the lower parts of the borough, it didn't. It slowed, but it didn't stop. And that's what we have to contend with and how we change that. And yeah, I know there's two men being on quads for many years, but when they were on the quads, back in John Bradbury's days, there was no restriction on spraying weeds. You didn't have to record where you'd sprayed your chemicals, you could go wherever you wanted. You weren't at risk of NRW chasing you down saying, you know what, we've found traces of your chemical in the watercourse, what are you going to do about it? These are the issues that we have now and they're all our issues and I'm just telling you how it manifests in environments. But every department has those environmental challenges. We've all got to adapt to them. I'm not sure that we can afford to stand two men down to quad bike weed spray because it's all hit and miss now. But if we need to, we will. Are you coming back to you or are you done? In reference to the recording of the chemical, that hasn't happened overnight, that's been going on for years. And NRW do contact you and ask you where you've used it, how much you've used and where you've put it down. So I am aware of that and like I said, that just hasn't started now is it? But in reference to the hedge that I was referring to bird nesting, which is in Paul's area, it's an accident waiting to happen. It's not your hedge. It's an accident waiting to happen. It needed letters going to the owner to say cut the hedge. And then if they didn't cut it and you'd followed the procedure, and I'm not saying you haven't, followed the procedure, then obviously you could cut it yourself and charge him. But at this present time, if you haven't served notice, you cannot charge him and it's causing Paul still problems. Can I just come in? I've been threatened with the lynching over that, so if they come to lynch me, can I send them to Abbey Road? Yes, certainly. Listen, I'm more than happy to pick it up, Paul, and I will. Let me know where it is. Listen, we have the Irish supervisors, we have the coordinators. I would expect them to work with you and to get the notices out. I'll check if they have. But in all honesty, I'm happy to take it back and to have a word with the supervisors. But in all honesty, you wouldn't expect me to have to go out and do that, I would hope. I'm happy to do it. You know I'm happy to do anything. But you wouldn't expect me to pick up that issue, but I'll certainly go back and challenge the supervisors to make sure they've done what they need to do. And I would encourage you all, if there are issues where we need to serve notice, and sometimes working with landowners is really tricky, you know that. But I'm happy to, you know, we've got to be seen to go through that process. And listen, we've had challenges about working with landowners in Paul's Ward and other matters to do with, well it might be Mark's Ward I think, the Corkscrew Lane issue is one that we've had a real challenge about how we can deal with that. We've been to legal and we've had all those challenges. Sometimes they're difficult. And sometimes, you know what, to save a lot of arguments we just get on and do it. But when times are hard and budgets are tight, it's really difficult to justify that. But I'm happy to pick that up Paul and I'll go away and come back on it. Yeah, it's just that somebody is going to get hurt there. It is bad. And there's two signs, there's three signs there, which you've had to switch off, which tells people to slow down. Because it's Welsh, it's English over Welsh. So you've had to switch them off. So there's no warnings to say it's a bad bend and you can't see it on the corner. That's correct Paul, isn't it? Yep, certainly. Listen Paul, I'll pick it up with you. You don't know, do you? Trevor? Thank you, Mr Chair. Yeah, it's quite a problem, isn't it? I'll pick up on a few points that you've made. Cutting grass, yeah, we're cutting it all year round. But when we're cutting grass, we're not having to grit roads up to the snow, are we? So we've got the men there, they're just not needed for the usual winter tasks that we've had in the past. Global warming has crept on us slowly. So we've seen the change and the movement of the seasons, but we haven't reacted, I don't think. The tractors have been off the road again. I keep hearing that a lot of the tractors we've got won't fit down our narrow lanes, and where I live in the Carrick Valley, it's the narrow lanes that are getting closed in now and really need the verges cutting. They are dangerous. I mean, some of you can't see where you're reversing when you meet a car. I think mid-July is probably a bit too late really to start. Perhaps you can just enlighten me on when you can start cutting legally. Don't worry if you go to prison, Darren. I think housing, they're obliged to find you a house when you come out of prison these days. At least that gives you some reassurance if you do go down for that, yeah. But landowners and hedges, I've asked my street scene supervisor to do two or three, actually, and the hedges still haven't been cut. So that is something that perhaps we need to sharpen up on and let people know that we will take action where we need to because it hasn't happened in my part of the world. I'm very fortunate. I live in the Carrick Valley, and there's a group called Carrying Pen Trevi. That's Love Our Villages, and they do an awful lot of grass cutting through the village, so they do some of the work that the council don't have to do. And in fact, this year, again, I have been rather embarrassed by the state of some of the public grass that's been left. And I take my own mowers and cut a housing estate, and I cut a little hedge that actually blocks views because I tried in the past to get the council to do it, but it's just not been done. So we do need to change things. Well, one thing I'd like to, sorry, second question, first one was when can you start monitoring of the budget? We seem to have staff moving from one department to the other. How do we allocate the funds or the budget for staff who work in several different departments? Are we monitoring everything so we know exactly where the budget's been spent? By that one member of staff, he can be used in three or four different areas of the council. So how are we monitoring that, please? And yeah, the verges, some of them weren't done last year. And I often look and see the guy going down on the tractor, he'll do a big, he'll start at the top of the mountain, where the bottom is where it's worst. I know he likes to do it in an organized manner, but he'll do a lot of the straight roads that don't need doing and then avoid, at the end of the day, he hasn't got to the small narrow roads with bends that really do need doing. So perhaps we could prioritize where we need the verges to be cut. So I'll leave you with those couple of questions. Thank you. Yeah, certainly. I remember the, you know, the good old days, and they're not that long ago, but we used to do two highway verge cuts, planned cyclic highway verge cuts, we used to run two. And we contracted them out for the time when there was a contractor that was able to do it. Listen, there's no point in looking back too much at that, because now we have money to do one highway verge cut. So we try and do it mid-season. That's why we do it in July. You can really sort of start sort of end of March, I think is the sort of time when you can get on there when the birds have done what they need to do. But we try and do it in the middle of the season. And we usually take our mark off the trunk roads and it's not a coincidence that the early part of the season is when grass on at the pressure on grounds maintenance is highest. So it's those early spring months, April, May, June, when they're really the pressure to get the grass under control is that it's highest. So what usually happens is we have a few months of trying to get the grass under control before we then have to send one of our tractors out or two tractors sometimes to do our single highway verge cuts planned. That does then mean that often in many areas it doesn't cover us from the visibility questions, which is why I said we do visibility, additional visibility work on those areas that we are aware of. If there are more, we'll pick those up. That's why we do it in the way we do it. We take our mark off the trunk road and we usually then are at a point where we can afford to move a tractor away from community grass cutting to do verge mowing. We move it earlier, there's a gap in community grass cutting. That's why we do it the way we do it in terms of how we manage the budgets. If you can imagine managing the budgets with a load of empty seats on buses and there's a bus that goes and does waste, there's a bus that goes and does recycling, there's a bus for highways and there's a bus for grass. Every morning we take stock of who's in and we fill the buses as best we can. Sometimes there are vacant seats on all of them and we have to move men around. We manage the budgets based upon establishment numbers that are like vacant seats on the bus and if we need 100 men to run a bin service, then they do take first call, I'll be honest. They have to take first call because if we miss bins today, we never catch that up. It's difficult then, you know that. So we fill the bin and recycling bus first. Unfortunately, we're then usually left with whatever we're left with and we try and make a balance on keeping the grounds maintenance bus full and the highway bus full. They're basically based on establishment numbers and vacant seats and we take stock every day and if there's a pressure one day where we do know what, we have to go out and do more grounds, we try and put more men on grounds. We have a day when there's 14 bin wagon drivers that are off, we have to find 14 drivers from another service and pull them in to do it. That's the nature of environmental services, that's the nature of how we move the men around, that's why they're multitasking and that's how we keep track of the budgets based upon establishment numbers. But that's what we have to do. Kerry makes sure operationally he gets the men out to firefight every single day and that's how we do it. There's no big challenge, we have the number of men that turn up at the yard, the vast majority stick to their usual activities. But you know what, if we're short of bin wagon drivers we have to go raiding other services and pull bin wagon drivers in to make sure we can get the bins emptied. And then we take stock of what we've got left. And there will be times, there's always times where we have plant down, sweepers down, high abs down, gully emptiers are down. And when they're down we have to use their men to do other things. And that's just the nature of environmental services, it's just what skills have we got? We do all our training in house now so we can at least upskill people who haven't got the skills that perhaps they need and we're doing quite a lot of work to make sure we get HGV drivers passed so we build resilience in. But that's what happens, that's literally what happens on a daily basis. Just to say for an example, this morning we had nine loaders that didn't turn in and six drivers and that was on top of the existing people that hadn't come in so yeah it's a challenge every day. Joe you want to come back? Yeah go on. And I understand that, that's what does happen and I think this is where we got behind, that's my personal opinion. And I'm not saying for one minute, you've got to fill them positions first but we need to be open, honest and tell us exactly what the problems are so we can move forward. Claire did you have your name down? Yeah then Graham. Thanks chair. So I don't think there's a member here or any ward that hasn't been affected by this and especially with the grass. It's obviously increased calls into the contact centre, the housing and state offices, knocks on our doors, abuse in the street, whatever you name it but it is a time now to move forward and look at how we can get this right and do the support and I think a big thing with that is communication obviously as well. I tried not to, I tried basically to wait my turn with the grass, I knew it was pointless, I knew there's a cycle, I tried to communicate that best I could because obviously anything reactive is going to cost more so there were little patches that like you go out, you cut, you sort of tend to and I appreciate I had a situation where it was a health and safety risk. I have had to get in contact with supervisor and say look this is causing a lot of issues, there's been a few near misses and it was dealt with and that was great and that was communicated so thanks for that as well. There is some positive action going on and some good communication. Communications wise, I'm signed up to the notifications for the bins, I'm signed up to that in my personal email, obviously it had the notification through today regarding the updates that are coming through. I got a bit confused when it came through, I thought right this is coming through with my bin reminders every week. Is it planned that these will be rolled out to residents as well? So will they be included when you sign up for your bins? This is where our schedule is, sort of roughly is there any plans in terms of that? Additionally as well, obviously weed spraying, a lot of cars are parked, if it's communicated to us when spraying is likely to happen and that again it's communication between supervisors, just a quick message to say we are looking to be in your area next week, all being well, we know things change but can you communicate that if there's a bunch of, tell people to park elsewhere, residents do tend to respond to us, we go we knock on doors, we say look shift your car, don't park it there that week. The other part as well really is Trevor mentioned about the resources, obviously you weren't using the gritters as much, the men are there so and obviously people transfer out but do you think there's an effect with the March start? Obviously that's when you are commencing, that's when a lot of people now are using up their remaining leave, they're getting the notification right, I've got five days leave, got to go, I'll tag it on to when's the best, half the council is off for the last two weeks in March. Is there any possibility of changing in that, can that be amended to reflect a quieter area or indeed sort of rotated so people start and end dates aren't with that? That's potentially an HR issue but isn't something that would help use moving forward as an environmental department. The other one, landowner liability, I think we need to be smarter as councillors as well and again communicate, we recognise the ones that do and that don't, we've got some really good landowners that are there, they do parts that aren't theirs but the landowners potentially with the smaller properties that don't have the means. I think we need to be flagging these up and that needs to be letters out and do that side and as well just a thank you to the communities like Trevor said that do go out and tidy up themselves. We are in Rexham, I think we've got a lot but we've also got the litter pickers, Rexham litter pickers, I'm sorry they do a hell of a job as well. I spent five, six hours last Sunday, managed to clear the weeds because they were over the walls of five of the pensioner bungalows and half of the bus stop, that took me hours to do, there'll be other people doing the same. So yeah, just appreciation for the others as well. Thank you. Yeah, I have to echo that comment about volunteers. It would be absolutely wrong of us to not acknowledge the work they do. We do work in partnership with them, we always try and give praise where it's due and it's due in many, many, many cases. We ask the litter pickers to collect the litter and then our team comes around and we don't ask them to do it, through the goodness of their heart really. And then we send our cage vehicles around to pick up the litter and listen, we're indebted to those for that. In terms of being flexible with our annual leave and the start year, listen, there's no point in dwelling what happened last year, we had a budget situation that meant we unfortunately we were constrained with what we could do with recruiting. There is a turnover in staffing environments and it's pretty regular turnover in staffing and we do have that turnover towards the end of last year. Because we needed to keep the budget where we were then and then come the start of the new year we were able to recruit up to full establishment numbers, which meant we were already on the back foot somewhat. And I have to be really careful here because listen, the council is trying to do a lot of work, modern ways of working and all those sorts of things. But you know what, some of the traditional services that we deliver do rely on having the staff in work every day and those pressure times of years causes a lot of angst. And I don't want to criticise colleagues in other services but we used to have flexible annual leave years and unfortunately we haven't got those now but they used to make delivery in frontline services where you need the staff. It was invaluable. So we keep on challenging our HR colleagues to give us a system where that allows us to be flexible with annual leave. And even if you do things like having leave years turnover on birthdays, so if your birthday is in February, your leave year starts in February and if your birthday is in October, it starts in October. And you would be surprised how much easier that makes life. Unfortunately I'll say this quietly although I'm on the screen so it probably won't help but we had to stop that so we're trying to find different ways of dealing with it, you're right, it does coincide and everything is a bit of a crescendo. I think the point is about winter maintenance and Councillor Bakes raised it and you've shared it as well. Listen, last year it wasn't a cold winter, we really didn't have any of the white stuff but how many gritting shouts did we turn out? We turned out a lot because it was marginal forecasts. What we want to make our lives easier, as odd as it might sound, is a really cold, cold spell. We don't want the marginal stuff because what happens with that is you send people out, because you have to, in case it gets cold and then that means that they're off then for the next day. So with that we would in some ways like it to become more temperate and we're not having these marginal calls but if we carry on having marginal winters as they're probably going to be, where they're bobbling around the zero degrees, minus one, plus one, we call an action on that so we will be out gritting. But there will be parts of the borough on, so you might notice last year we changed the way we do our gritting service, we have high routes and low routes. That's because the high routes tend to be colder and the low routes we don't need to bother so we were able to split our routes up. We've done that change to pick up on climate change and I think we've got to build on that now to think about how we cut grass and it might be. We only get high routes and we cut grass in low routes and it's odd, but those are the things we're thinking about to try and remodel. But you're right, flexible leave years would help a lot. I'm going to ask Hugh, Hugh's been working on this digital emailing system so I'll ask Hugh just to give you some details on that. I'm sure it'll help you all because you're all, even though you might not want to be, you're all subscribed and I'm sure you can unsubscribe but Hugh will give you some. Yeah, thank you Darren. To answer your question, so we're not using a new system, we're using the same system that we used for the bin reminders. What we were mindful of, and you hit the nail on the head, is if you start any new topic within our email system, you've got to build that subscriber base. We did already have an email topic in regards to road closures that hasn't been used regularly for years, so it's sitting there dormant. But it had over 10,000 people already signed up to it, so the wording in the email today explained that you've received this email because you have previously been signed up to this email address. And if you're interested, stay subscribed, they're welcome to unsubscribe if they don't want to be subscribed to it. But there are, it's just shy of 11,000 altogether, so I've included all councillors in there. And as Darren said, if you don't want to receive the emails, you can unsubscribe. And then moving forward, we're going to put some more publicity on the website, encouraging people to sign up to it on certain pages that are relevant to the services that we deliver. And we're also going to look at putting messages at the bottom of the bin reminders as well to say, if you want more updates of this type, please click here to subscribe if that makes sense. It might be useful putting them at the top of the bin updates because the first thing I do when it flashes up on the screen, I don't even open it because it just says, I say all I do is go out and check what the neighbours are doing anyway. But if it's at the top of it, I think we all get that flash up to say, and it comes through on your mobile and you just scroll across because you've remembered. So a lot of people don't even open those updates. It's just enough that the title flashes up. But yeah, that sounds really positive. It'd be interesting to know how many people unsubscribe within the next week. Okay, thanks for that. Bit of deja vu here, just had an email about the same road again with the hedges and that, it's just come in now. So yeah, I could do with a meeting with one of you up there one day just to see what we can thrash out, but that's for another time. Paul? Thank you. There's been a lot of discussion about the environment department and how the staffing is resourced each day. I think we should recognise as well that obviously there's a significant contribution from the housing department towards grass cutting. And understandably, that whole staff, or should I say that amount of money shouldn't be being used to prop up on a daily basis, say bin collections, because obviously HRA money should be ring fenced for HRA land. So I just wanted to obviously point that out that the housing department is contributing a significant sum of funding towards grass cutting in this county borough. And it hasn't really been discussed really, that we have got people living in our council houses paying for a service which they're not getting. So they're paying service charges and so on. And some of these residents are coming to me saying, how can you send out a letter about my garden when you're not cutting your own open spaces? And I understand where they're coming from, where they feel that as tenants they're paying rent and obviously the open spaces around where they live aren't being maintained to a standard which they previously have been. Yeah. Listen, I did touch on it earlier and yeah, listen, colleagues from housing, I know Julie's on the screen and the deputy leader of the council, Bethil's here, he's the lead member. And listen, Terry, myself, Mark, David discussed the issue and the contribution from housing and I think what we just need to be, we're doing a mapping exercise to map out the land that we cut. So I think I mentioned earlier, in broad terms, just over 4 million square metres on one cycle of cutting the grass. A considerable proportion of that is HRA estate. The difference is for general open space, so general fund open space tends to be wide open spaces, football pitches, fields. To cut that in real terms is not that labour intensive or resource intensive. You all know and listen, part of the work and the previous reports that we listened to talk about the improvements in the housing standards that we asked for and now you've got small fenced off gardens, fenced off open spaces in housing. Nice new palisade fencing and edges have been got rid of in many cases now and knee rail fences are protecting open spaces and I absolutely understand all that work and we're working with colleagues in housing to accurately map all that. But the resultant fact in terms of maintaining the space underneath those areas is, whereas once a tractor could go around a field and cut it in 20 minutes, it probably now takes a team of grass cutters, ride on machinery, strimming round posts a day. So evaluating all that needs to be done and we're doing that exercise now and we will get to a point where we will understand absolutely what's HRA and how much resource that takes and the costs. I think working with colleagues, but we're not here today I don't think to be challenging on all that. That's work that's going on in the background and the real issue with dressing here is, let's be honest, the grass was too high, too long and too untidy. Whether it's my grass, your grass, David's grass, Terry's grass, it wasn't where we wanted it to be. Let's put it right, let's deal with the rest of it whilst we, when we've got a bit more time to think about it. But there's officers working on all that along with colleagues from housing. Just to come back on that, obviously I appreciate where you're coming from on that, but obviously if men are being taken off grass cutting to empty bins, then that's not helping the situation is it? I think we need to be honest that that needs to be looked at and maybe we wouldn't be this far behind if that wasn't happening. Sorry Chen, I don't mean to interrupt. Just a question, could that be a factor as to why we're behind because we're taking men off grass cutting to do bins or whatever? Listen, I wasn't going to, I'm not for one minute saying we're on schedule, but I'll just give you an example. So traditionally every year it takes about six weeks to cut the grass cuts on one cut and when we finish, we're back to the beginning and start again. The early cuts in the early spring months, as I said, take longer. Once the grass has calmed a little, they get round a lot quicker. So we would always anticipate seven or eight weeks to get round the grass. Do you know what? We're in three quarters of the way through cut two and we've probably been cutting grass for ten, eleven weeks. Are we where we need to be in terms of the schedule? Yeah, we probably are. Are we in need to be where we'd like to be in terms of the quality? No, we're not. So it's not that we haven't got the men cutting the grass at the pace we'd like. What happens with the grass? And listen, I didn't want to get into the point of talking about this, but when you've got a cylinder mower, which is what we predominantly use to cut grass, the first thing that hits the grass is a roller. And when the grass is long, the first roller knocks it down and then the cylinder, which comes behind it and cuts. There's nothing for it to cut. The flail type machine doesn't operate like that. So what happens is the grass cuts and then when they've gone, the grass lies flat then and it looks like, oh, they've cut it. The day or two after, the strong pieces of grass spring up and that's when it looks like it's been scalped or cut with a knife and fork. And we haven't got the resource to go back and redo it in many ways. So we're having to just plough one. It doesn't give anybody any pleasure because the lads that cut it yesterday go past today and think, oh God, what happened there? That's the issue of the machinery that we're using. So we've got to change that. And I think there's all those things we need to bear in mind, but it is what it is. We're trying to get it better. Just apologize, Graham. I don't normally fetch non-committee members in till our lot's finished, but David wants to come in on this. So I'm going to fetch him in first. David. Yes, thanks. Thanks, Jeff. I'm just coming in as lead member for housing just to respond really to some of the comments that's been made. I think Councillor Paul Rogers mentioned about the significant contribution that we make as a department to, from the HRA account to the environment department. And we do. But taking that to one side, I think what I'd rather focus on, and it's not for me, it's for you as committee members. I'd just like to turn the clock back a little bit back to pre-March earlier this year when last year we were facing a significant in-year budget deficit of $23 million. To be fair to the environment departments on every department in this council, we had to stop, slow down, cease work to make sure that we come in on budgets. And to be fair, we did. Now, putting that to one side, I'm not going to make any excuses today because climate change, we declared a climate emergency back in 2019. I can't accept excuses of COVID, industrial action. I'll be honest with you, it means nothing to me. My personal view is myself as deputy leader, lead member for housing, lead member for environments and the leader of the council, Mark, who's sitting next to me, we met with Ian and Darren and Kerry to try and resolve the situation. So the reality is, listen, we could be here until 7 o'clock tonight, but the reality is we're trying to put it right. It's not good this year. In fact, it's poor in my view. And Paul made reference, Paul Rogers, to pride in your streets. And we do need to refocus and re-emphasize on pride in your streets because at the moment it's not good and we've been criticized as a council and we have to accept that. But now we need to move on and we need to deliver an action plan. How are we going to put it right? Every department, including the environment department, is under significant financial pressure. And Darren, to be fair, has been open and honest and said that the budget pressures are significant. So what I'd rather suggest to the committee is how can we put it right, what recommendations can we make to make sure that we get this right for our constituency who we're here to represent? What's done is done now, but we need to make sure that we put it right for now, for the remainder of the year, and also for next year and make sure, because it's a corporate priority. Streets seen as a corporate priority of this council. When myself, Mark, Terry and Darren met with the chief exec to try and assist and there's extra resources gone in for the next three months. Darren's going to look at additional, to see how much modernization we can do with equipment, because some of the equipment needs addressing. The budget in environment, as Darren quite rightly said, is overspending, not on grass cutting so much this last 12 months, but on other matters like, you know, school transport and due to rising costs. So we've got an open space strategy. We need to work collaboratively with departments. We need to work together to try and address the matter. And if it needs additional funding, we've got to sort it out internally, or we've got to do it in a different way. We have to do something differently, change the machinery or whatever. But what I'd like to suggest really to the committee members, rather than focusing on, and it's not a criticism, it's, you know, to be fair, everybody's entitled to their views and the HRA pays a significant amount. And to be fair, I've had loads of people and loads of tenants contacting us from the estate office, and personally to say it's not good enough, as Councillor Paul Rogers has highlighted, but we are where we are. It's not good. We need to improve it. The standards of this era so far has been poor, but the reality is we have had lots of rain. You know, April was a solid month of rain, not making any excuses, but I'd rather focus, Chair, on what we can do to address it in this financial era and going forward. Okay, thanks, David. I've got Graham first, then Joe. Thanks, Paul. Where does one start? I come here today, quite truthful, to have a battle with the respective offices. But lo and behold, it's difficult to have a battle when I discovered that in my patch today, of all days, grass cutting has started. That's the first thing. Secondly, it's the easiest thing in the world to look for excuses. Thirdly, it's the easiest thing in the world for each party to criticise one another. But the reality is, Chair, we are where we are. The past is the past, and we should consider what's going to occur in the future. And in my opinion, common sense needs to be prevailed in this matter. We've seen the community charge raised. We've seen council house tenants' rents raised. The reality being, I can only speak for my patch, and I dare say I'm speaking for every other councillor's patch. Hermitage has been like a jungle, through no fault possibly of anyone other than the weather. The Met Office have promised a reasonable summer commencing towards the back end of this month. And to address the issues that many, many have discussed in the chamber today, I'd like to suggest that we all work together in moving this matter forward, as opposed to pushing the blame from one side to the other. And what I'd like to propose, if it's possible, to set up a task and finish group to work with the officers to see what we can achieve and produce for this year. Thank you, Chair. Thanks, Greg. I'll fetch that back in on the recommendation side, and we'll take a vote on it and see how members feel. Joe? Yeah, I've had a go today, obviously, as I do, as you all know. But what I would say, the lads on the ground are trying their best. They're slogging their backsides off, to be honest with you. And this is not a criticism of them. We've got it wrong. We've got it wrong. Let's move forward. Let's try to get it right. Let's praise them for what they're doing and what they're trying to do, and move on. Thank you. I've got Councillor Pridget. Yes, thank you, Chair. Can I just apologise for popping in and out? I had to deal with an issue, so that was the reason why. So thank you for allowing me to come in. Listen, I've listened carefully to the debate, and this has been going on for some time with regards to elected members. We've discussed in a group. We've had emails, WhatsApps, members of the public, and let's all be honest here. For me, it's all about standards and delivery of services. That's why we're all here. That's the frankness of it. We're public servants and we deliver services to the public who we represent and who Darren runs the department. Now, first of all, I'd like to thank Teddy for his honesty in his presentation. I'd like to thank Darren for coming along, because Darren doesn't shirk away from the challenge. And he can take a challenge, I can assure you. And we have had frank discussions with the chief exec and the chief officer and the lead member, David and I. And then discussions took place, and you know, what's said in that discussion stops in that discussion. That's how it should be. But coming back to the service delivery and standards, the frankness of it is the grass is too high, and that's where we are. I wouldn't disagree with what's being said here, and Darren knows his service area. He's been doing it long enough. But I think it's how we move forward and how we resolve it. Now, what we've done in the interim, and it's important, we've put some extra resources and money in there, because it's all about finance, to allow Darren and his team to catch up. And then I will support a task and finish group, you know, but it's up to yourself, and I think that's a good proposal, but we need to look to the future. And I want to look at the costing. Now, as you know, and it's in the report, it's 1.2 million pound and 700 and odd thousand contributed from the HRA. It isn't enough. That's the frankness of it is. It isn't enough. Now, if you asked Darren and all his questions here, he'd probably give you the answer. How much more do you need to deliver the service that we want and what our tenants pay for? I think that's the question we should ask. And then we've got to go away as politicians, including yourselves, and decide where we take that money from or where we find that money from to deliver a service that we can all be proud of and proud in your streets. But I haven't come here to criticize today. I've come here to really listen to your debate and move forward. But I think it's important that we all understand here now there isn't enough money in that service. You know, I listen to Darren very carefully. He's probably been as honest as he can be, but he's guarded as well. And I understand because he's a chief officer and I respect that there isn't enough money in that. And we've got to have that debate, a frank discussion if we want that standard to be met that we want. And the other thing is, I'll just add on this, and David, you know, you mentioned that you didn't want to go into the debate with the HRA and it's not for today, but you can't have the HRA subsidizing collections. You just can't. So it's up to Julie and Darren, both chief officers, to sort that out. And they might be that you have a separate cutting crew. I don't know. It's not my service delivery is up to the chief officers and the officers. But you can't have our tenants paying for it. And then the service department not delivering the service because they've had to be taken away to deliver another service. It's just not right. The HRA housing revenue account is for the HRA, nothing else. So that conversation has to take place as well. And, you know, I've looked at it and I don't know if Darren wants to add anything here today, but, you know, if I asked the chief officer, you know, how much more would you need in that department to deliver that service? And I'm referring to grass cutting now because I think that's we have to be honest here. And let's be frank, we made the cuts. We did make the cuts and we took money away and we took money away from lots of departments. But what I can say is honestly to you, none of us can accept the standard of service in that area. We just can't because the grass is too long. And I will refer to the HRA. It's people's homes. They walk out to their front door and there's a footpath, 1.5, 1.8 wide. And then the grass is four foot high. Sometimes four and a half foot high. You can't sit on a bench. It's higher than a bench. And that's unacceptable. So we've had all these conversations, David and I with that and we'll move forward on it. But I do believe that there has to be some honesty here today on where we are. And I'd like to echo what was said about the staff. I stop. You don't always see me, but I always stop when I see council workers. It's a habit you get into. They are working tirelessly, you know, to deliver the service. They are running around, rushing around, you know, strimmers everywhere and cutters. And, you know, they're working exceptionally hard and they're coming in on a weekend as well to catch up. So there's no criticism here really for me of the frontline staff at all. And then we have to look at it because we've put street scene as a priority. We have. That is in our council plan. And we put it in our council plan because street scene matters to us as elected members and to members, to our residents and the people of Wrexham. Street scene is when you walk out of your front gate, you see the street lights, you see the curbs, you see the highways, you see the grass, you see the letter, you see the dog fowling. It's everything you see. And it's an important service. And I'll make this, you know, statement today. I won't be supporting cutting any more money from street scene. I've told the chief officer and I told the chief exec, I'm at that point. You go to a point you can't carry on. Something has to give. And we're at that point. So for me, I think that we, you know, if the committee would be in support to allow myself and David to come to the task and finish group, we'll certainly give it the commitment. We don't want to vote on it, but we'd like to be there to listen to what's being said and we can move forward and let's learn from this. And we should never go back to this position again. Never. We can't. But there's no criticism from me, from the staff. And I mean that sincerely. And I'm sure I can echo that from all of us because they've worked tirelessly. Thank you for allowing me to speak, Chet. That's Mark. You want to comment on anybody over there or can I fetch Paul in? Listen, I think I've said everything, you know, absolutely no problem in picking up the chance, I think, to come back to Mark. I think we need to do that piece of work. We need to cost it out. We need to think about how we do that. You know, review the service. It needs review. We need to, you know, it gives us no pleasure to have to try and make old machinery do work, which they're not geared up to do. And there is no money in the service to invest. I think if as climate change happens, we've got to remodel it anyway. We need to remodel it and we need to absolutely understand the standards that we'd like to see. That's our job to deliver them. And we won't shirk that. We'll always come back and tell you. And when we can't, we'll come here, as we have today, to try and tell you what we're trying to do about it. We will do that. I think it would be quite a substantial amount of money to get to where you probably want it to be. And I've shared with the leader what I think it would be. And, you know, it is a substantial amount of money, it is a substantial challenge. But more than happy to work with this committee and senior politicians with the lead member to try and, you know, to try and help understand what it would look like to get you where you want it to be. I absolutely have. And you would expect me to say this. I know, listen, I'm down from environment when I'm here today, but I'm also a chief officer in an organisation that is going to be challenged financially. And then, you know, you all know what that is. The leader and the deputy certainly know, as does Terry. So I can't perhaps help to understand where the money is going to come from, but I can tell you what it would cost you. So I'm more than happy to be party to any work to help you to formulate your opinions on that. Thank you. I was going to have a good rant today, but I think everyone else has said their piece. And I concur with what Paul Rogers and the leader have said about the HR real. And I've also listened carefully to what you said. And, yeah, you know, I, I, I accept what you say. And you've been honest and truthful with us. I just don't want the same thing to happen next year and the year after that and the year after that. That's my concern. And I just want us to learn from this. And hopefully it won't happen like that next year. And I just want to work hard to make sure that doesn't that doesn't happen. One thing is the verges on the way from the first round of the new album to the second round about the new album when you get to that second round about you have to literally go up like that to see around that round. You cannot see what's coming around at all unless you're in an SUV or a lorry or a bus while buses don't go that way. But, yeah, that needs to be sorted. But I really don't want to see. I've had comments, but, you know, the stock stock for the graph. They need the tool sharpening up. And I've had all sorts of emails ranting away at me. And it's been quite frankly, embarrassing walking around the area. I just phoned Andy Hughes last week to ask him, you know, can we get Acrivia done? I know Plasmagnet's been done, but can you get Acrivia done please? Because I've got to get these people off my case, you know. But, yeah, so that's, but most members have said what I was going to say and I'm reassured. I like to be reassured by what the chief officer said to me today. I've just noticed Julie's been on the screen. She's been there since about half past two and she's been very, very quiet. Julie, are you happy with that proposal that you sit down with Darren and, you know, work something out and come back to us later in the year with a way forward? Is that in your liking? Absolutely, chair. Thank you for bringing me in. I mean, yeah, we are, you know, obviously aware of the issues and we have dialogue with Darren's department regularly. And our officers have been working behind the scene on those very things to see, you know, true costs of what it costs, what that would mean if we put more money in from the HRA, which I'm sure will be dealt with under the task and finish group. And we'd like to be part of that because obviously any additional money that we put to it results in charges for our tenants as well. But we are working together as teams on this and have been for a number of weeks. We're looking at our land. We're looking at where land has come out of being cut, you know, because they've had hard standings, et cetera. We're looking at where we can repurpose land under the open strategy, open area strategy. And we're working together closely to try and resolve this. And we all want the same thing. You know, we all we all want it to be resolved and for members to have it resolved for them because we know the pressures that you're under with it, because we've had similar issues. But Darren and I are working very closely on it to reassure members that work's already started. We're already mapping out land, which is a bit more complicated than you think. But we are doing that work in the background. Thanks for that Julie. Right, I got John Phillips and I don't think I've got anybody else after. John. Thanks, Jay. Obviously a lot's been said here today, but I will say it. Back end of 2023, industrial action, two, three cuts, we lost. That's fact. The new year, rain, rain, rain, constant rain. And, you know, we did lose the start time. I'm convinced that was the case. We are where we are. Extra, you know, it's reassuring really that extra machinery is going to come in, manpower. And it's it's, you know, we need some look forward now. And if members, you know, want a progress report to come back end of October, November, I'm happy to propose that we do that. But just to pick up on what Joe said and the leader with regards to the, you know, the manpower on the ground, the operatives can fulsome a pass through Johnstown day before yesterday and it will work in the socks off. So I think, you know, as a committee, we should pass on our thanks to them as well, if I'm honest, because they do they do work hard. So I'll just leave it at that chair. But and it's not there's no criticism in any way, shape or form coming from me because there has been circumstances out of our control. As I said, the back end of last year, the stats of the new year as well. It's obviously impacted on on the start of the grass cutting season. So hopefully onwards and upwards we go. I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Thanks John. I don't think any of us are disputing the hard work that goes on by the operatives. I don't think anybody is disputing that. And I'd like to ask the officers to pass on our thanks as a committee to the men, if you don't mind, you know, to that effect, because I think that's, you know, that's a fair way to do it. And we are grateful for what they do do. Anybody else before we do a recommendation? I just missed one thing out and I didn't meant to cover it, but just quickly chief officer mentioned about private landowners and hedges. And I can't disagree. And in the past, we have with your words, we just got on with it and I respect that, but I think we have to move away from that. Now, if that age is not our responsibility, we should serve notice and that landowner should pay for it to be cut. Now, if he ignores us, then we can serve the notices, Steve said, and then we recharge them. And I think we have to be proactive and hard on that now. We have to, because we haven't got the money that we had many years ago. Resources are tight and I just feel that, you know, if it's, if it's not our responsibility, we should not be paying for this. It's public money that we're spending, but if the landowner won't cut it and then we have to cut it, then we recharge. And I'm sorry I missed that out, chair, but that is so important for me as a taxpayer. We shouldn't be cutting private edges. We shouldn't. Thank you. But I think, you know, in all due respect to that one, if the said hedge or hedgerow is a danger to people, which many are, you know, they should be done and then recharged, you know, and I would stand by that 100%. And can I say, chair, I don't disagree with that, but it would be interesting in this task and finish group to see how many edges we have to cut because of the need to collect of the landowner and how successful we are on the recharge. Because, you know, that is important these days. You know, we shouldn't be cutting edges and then not recharging. But I take on board health and safety is everything. And as Darren said, he covered it very well in his presentation, his replies to responsibility lies with him. But what I'm saying is, if we do have to cut them, they should be a recharge and we should chase them up for it. Absolutely. Thank you, chair. Oh, we got Mr. Bates. Again, if you go down to Jersey, the Channel Islands, they have something called broncage where they go around every every hedge in the community and they do exactly that. My question is, have we got the resources to actually start doing that as a council? Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I suppose that's the challenge with all this. Councillor Bates, you are exactly right. But I mean, I think there's ways and means, isn't there? So you've heard today that we we now we've we've got some lads, they are mostly lads and they're not being we do have some ladies that work in streets, but they're mostly lads in grounds maintenance. But we are working weekends. And, you know, it does mean that you do have a little bit more flexibility to catch up with that type of work at weekends where we've got a bit more chance if we can get the drivers to do it. So I think we've got ways and means. We just need to alter our behaviour. And I'm saying that as chief officer delivering the service and we need to find a way to deliver it because it's not just that, is it? There's lots of areas where sometimes it's easier for us to do it rather than chase down landowners. And, you know, and sometimes they're just individual properties. And sometimes, you know, this you'll have them in your community. We've got them everywhere. It might be, you know, an elderly couple who just can't manage to cut that hedge. And sometimes, you know, we have to try and work with them. And that's what our supervisors, you know, so we've got to do some work on that. But I would agree with what the leader said. We need to find a way of those persistent problem areas. And you, Trevor, you've got a lot. Paul's got one that we'll pick up. And in rural areas, it tends to be a bit of an issue. So, you know, we have to find a way of managing that. And that's what I think as we remodel the service, we need to look at how we can deal with it. You know, we've got more tractors now, whether it be we've had opportunities to get more from grants. We've got smaller tractors, smaller tractors with sidearms that can go and do some of that flail work that that you would save them in the valley especially. We just need to resource them up. And if it does mean we send them out a weekend to do a rechargeable job, so be it. So that's just an example. I'm not saying that's the way it will work, but it's just an example how we could do it. OK, right. I'm going to move forward now. Now there's no more hands up. We had a proposal, about half an hour ago, of Graham Rogers that we set up a Tascam Finish Group to look at weed control, grass cutting. And now as well, looking at the hedgerows and see how we can move on with that. So I've had a proposal. Do I have a seconder? Can I have a show of hands, please? OK. I'm sure Craig will be in touch when we can get something set up. Is that OK? Yes, Chair. Well, obviously, if the committee wishes to set up Tascam Finish Group to look at those issues, we'll bring back a scoping document to the July meeting. Thanks for that. Right. The recommendation. Oh, sorry. The the punch made by Councillor Pritchard and Councillor Biffle about the HRA. I believe that you're going to meet together and sort of tackle that a little bit and come back to us at a later date without you going to tackle it and move forward. Is that OK? Yeah. Rather than put that in the recommendations. We're mapping that out, Chair. So that works ongoing, as Julie said. So when we've got that to a point, we'll obviously share it with the lead members and we can bring that back as part of a Tascam Finish. It's in your gift, Chair. OK, that's fine. John, you want to say something before I do the recommendation? Yeah, just are we OK to have a progress report sometime back in the end of October, November? Claire? Darren mentioned with regards to the leave and the difficulty with conversation with HR. Is that something that you would like us to include in the recommendation that further consideration be given for flexibility with an environmental team to help your staffing? Everything would help. Thank you. Chair, if we could include then in that, that we get an update on the conversation between environment and HR for them to be considered for flexibility within their leave. I think, you know, talking to Craig now, I think that might be better covered at the Tascam Finish stage where we've got the officers and we can, if we need to, we can fetch HR in as well, can we? Is that OK? OK, Paul, did you have your hand up before we move on? I was just going to say what you said. OK. Right. Recommendations as such to receive an update on progress made, including new ways of working at the October meeting. To receive further information on plans to address challenges in relation to grass cutting and weed control in 2025. He does shorthand and I cannot, I don't do shorthand. I'm from the Roast, we don't do it up there. OK, so you got that obviously? So are we happy with that? OK, thanks. I'd just like to say I hope you haven't had too hard of a time and thanks for your honesty. And I just hope that we can move forward and get things done in the future in a better fashion perhaps. Is that OK? OK. Thanks, Jay. Yeah, no problem at all. OK. Thanks very much everybody.