Transcript

Q. Are we ok to make a start? Ok, thank you everybody. There's still one person. There's not been an accident on the motorway has there again? As far as we're aware? No? Ok, the recording's started so welcome to today's meeting of Cheshire East Council's Finance Subcommittee. It's being held at Westfields and Sandbacks. I'm Councillor Nick Manning and I'll be chairing this afternoon's meeting today. The meeting has been audio webcast and recorded and the recording will be uploaded onto the Council website as soon as practical after the meeting. I kind of remind everybody to use their microphone when speaking and to speak clearly into the microphone. So the audio is picked up in the broadcast but it also asks for people to put their phones and their laptops on silent because when there's an all member email sent out during the meeting it's like musical pings around the room. So yeah, I'll put them on silent for the duration of the meeting and before we start the formal business I'd like to welcome Adele Taylor, stand next to me, who's the Interim Director of Finance and Customer Services here at Cheshire East and it's your first meeting of the Finance Subcommittee. Thank you. Introduce yourself. Thank you Chair, yes so as the Chair has said I'm the Interim Section 151 for the Council and I've been here for not quite two months yet. I hope to be here to help you with your business. Thank you very much. Okay, so start the formal business of today's meeting. Do we have any apologies for absence? Yes Chair, we have apologies from Councillor Reg Cane and Councillor Chris O'Leary and we have two substitute members present, Councillor Rod Fletcher and Councillor Stuart Gardiner. Thank you, welcome to both of you and hope you find this afternoon's meeting informative and enjoyable. So Item 2, declarations of interest. Are there any disposable pecuniary interest or other registrable interest and non-registrable interest on any item of today's agenda that a member wishes to declare? Stuart. In the interest of openness, references made throughout the papers to the Cheshire Pension Fund and I am hopeful that one will be a recipient of this. I am also 30 years with the contributions into the Cheshire Pension Fund and hopefully women are not too much longer able to draw upon them. I also, in the interest of openness, in my capacity as Chair of this subcommittee, I act as the Council's shareholder in relation to the holy home companies and we've got an item, item 7 on the part 1 of today's agenda where that is relevant. Thank you very much. No other declarations of interest? This too. Oh sorry, got over there, I was looking the other way. Janet. 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So that's the slight, because you're only seeing the budget changes in this paper, as a first off I think it will start to make more sense once they come with the whole of the financial reporting period as well, because that will show the business is used, if I can put it that way. However, on top of that in terms of the ratings you are correct, these are the ratings that are applied by the directorates themselves, but they are challenged. So these are challenged through our meeting that is called CBERT, which is basically emergency budget response meetings. What we are checking is there's a whole series of information that sits behind this, which is around the original high level business case and the steps that people said they had to go through to deliver the savings that were in front of us. So something is only able to be green if those steps are on track, if it's delivering as expected it's sticking to time. Red is where something is either completely off track or decisions not being taken, a decision that should be taken hasn't been taken yet, or if in doing the due diligence and the work we've been doing we find then often somebody's savings are about changing behaviours or changing things to happen, and if we're not seeing the outcome that we expect. I suppose in one way I usually focus on the ambers as much as somebody else because they can either go green or red. The reds, we've set out a clear expectation as an officer group that if it is red that alternative savings need to be found within the directorates to cover those, and in fact we went through a number of those, we in fact had that meeting this morning, and so we went through a number of those alternatives this morning at that meeting, we do that on a weekly basis, and we are asking directorates to do that, but the ambers are the ones where we will focus efforts on what are the steps and why are things not happening in the order that they should do. So the challenge, the directorates come up with this, but the challenge is around as much as something else, it's not the numbers themselves but actually the activity that sits behind it, so that is done corporate-wide. So that's the answer to that question. In terms of 24/25, that is very much part of our budget management, and I'm really clear we don't monitor budgets, we manage budgets, and it's a piece of language I think everybody's getting used to after eight weeks of me here, I don't ever talk about monitoring things, we have to manage things. One of the first exercises that we're undertaking is in fact a line-by-line review of what happened in 23/24 and in fact the year before, so we've got detailed information at account and cost centre level for every single budget across the council that we're going through at a directorate level, which is understanding and picking up the point from the previous report, is if we can identify early anything that happened last year, are we seeing the same trends this year, and therefore what does that mean for 24/25? So that's really key and really crucial, and that activity is happening again as we speak and will form part of the first financial reporting period will be again what can we identify early so that we shouldn't end up with a big overs and unders, or if we do we recognise them very early in the year. That will also focus on any activity that we need to do to bring back our budgets on track, on really clear we have a cash limited budget, therefore how do we learn to live within our means, so that budget management process is crucial in that. The focus has got to be on delivery, because if we don't there isn't an alternative, you know we've got to find those alternatives, we've got to manage within our cash limited budgets, and that longer term piece we also, I'm looking at the way in which we're managing our financial response in terms of making sure that when we make financial judgments, when we take action on our budget, that we understand both the short-term implications and the longer-term implications. So for example, vacancies, if we've got a vacancy and I mentioned this at the policy committee, you might get a short-term cash saving from not recruiting to a post, but what does that mean in terms of activity, what does it mean for the longer-term, so trying to actually think about the longer-term financial implications and not just the short-term. Okay. So against the RAG status, would it be useful to have a risk analysis against each one of the RAG statuses, because for me there's an awful lot of numbers against each committee, and I don't know whether that's going from amber merging onto red or amber merging onto green, and the risk analysis against it would help to say it's an amber but it's okay, we'll probably go to green at some stage, it's an amber but it's red, or it's at a five risk, you know, it is going to go into red, we need to do something about it. So for me it'd be useful to have a risk analysis against each one. So the direction of travel, isn't it, like an arrow going open, going towards green, or going downwards, it's sliding towards the RAG. Okay Adele? I'm happy to pick that up, absolutely, direction of travel, but also we can also look at the wording on some of these as well. The other thing, you're absolutely correct, what we haven't done is we haven't provided a key to what red and green means, so I'll make sure that's added in as well, so happy to do that. That's useful suggestion. Stuart then... Firstly, in regards to what Brian just said, we used to have that in one of the little bit of RAG rating elsewhere, You speak up on this Stuart? Sorry, you used to have an up or down arrow next to the RAG rating, so we needed to know which way we were going. I have two concerns, first one is I'm a bit concerned that we might be, I know we've got to make these savings, but given that I was at an adult committee last night that said that we had a situation whereby we've got increasing demand, increasing number of complex means, increasing pressures in terms of the charge-out from the RAG commission services, that the reductions being proposed appear to me to be very extreme, and I'm not convinced that they are achievable, and I hope that they are. I'm quietly confident in what you just said, that things are in place to ensure that we know whether or not those are achievable, but my other concern is one of democracy, and that is that we're all elected here to buy people out there, and if things go wrong, it's us that takes the can. I have no problem with taking the can for decisions I've made. I have a problem with taking the can for decisions other people have made, and therefore I'm a former local government officer, and many years ago I was involved in a process where the council had worked boards in dire financial restraints, and the council was there, listing every service that was delivered in the council, and they put at the top of the list all those statutory things that they could have determined that they had to do, and then everything but discretionary then went into a new list, and they had to, from one to however many who were on the list, determine what were their priorities as councillors, and that those were the services that we delivered. So I will use an example, it's a very extreme example, I mean it's only for the purpose of identifying. We fill potholes, and it costs a lot of money, and we cut the grass, and I know from the couple, and now they're both in the same direction, or they're both in place. Who decides whether we cut the grass or we fill the potholes? I believe that decision should be taken by the councillors, and not by officers, and so I'd like clarification of the process that we do to ensure the democratic input into the decision making. First of all, there was one phrase you didn't mention at all, so in the country, 'value for money'. Just because a service is a statutory service doesn't mean it should be subjected to vigorous value for money assessment. Also, and I speak as well as a former 30-year local government opposite, a lot of statutory services are delivered intertwined, I think is the best way, with services that go above and beyond. We go above and beyond our statutory duty, for instance, to homeless people who do not have a need under the homeless legislation. We go above and beyond that, especially during hard weather. To unpack that, it would probably cost more than not to, so it's not a linear process, but you're right, but one thing you didn't mention is just because it's a statutory service doesn't mean we shouldn't be seeking to optimise value for money for the council tax payer, and that is also our duty. I know you don't disagree with me, but you didn't mention it, so I thought I would. Adele, do you want to come back? Absolutely. The way we allocate resources is through the corporate priorities. In other words, the MTFS, the medium-term, sorry, apologies for using that please, the medium-term financial strategy and the medium-term financial plan are all about delivering the corporate priorities of the council, and so our funding should follow those lines. In terms of, but again, I come back to the value for money I was going to pick up as well, but sometimes it's about how we do it. So in terms of, as members you're setting out a policy of what you're expecting to happen, but we also have to move within our means, because that's your other fiscal responsibility is not to run out of money. So it's about ensuring that we fit the resources you've got to the priorities that you have, and that you do make those choices, and what we need to do in the presentation over the short, medium and long term is present to you the cost of your wants and your priorities. Absolutely though, it has to be fundamental to all this, is your best value duty. It's basic, and your best value duty is as members and as a council, we have a best value duty. So it is ensuring that we are delivering things in a best value way. So again, there may be, you know, you mentioned adult social care, it's actually an area where I know very well, because it's where I first started my financial career. There are ways and ways of delivering, and we need to ensure that we are delivering the requirements of the service, but in a money for money way. So what are the tools that we can use as a council to ensure that we deliver in the most efficient way possible, that we, whatever the service is, that we secure the funding that we need to, that we manage all the processes, and that we should do everything from collecting the income that we should do, we talked earlier about the write off of debt, we should have made, we should do everything we possibly can, for example, to cut that debt before we make that decision. So sometimes it's about the way we do things and the cost of the way we do things that really matters. But absolutely the NTFS is your delivery of your corporate priority. Thank you, Jay. Yes, 20 says that my understanding is that by March 2028, we have a potential forecast funding gap of 100 million pounds. Now also looking at Table 4, the new contingency budget, we hope to have 10 million pounds in that by March 2028, and also replace general reserves from 5 million back up to 20 million. Well, it was recommended 20 million some years ago, we've not been there for a very long time. So basically that's an extra 25 million. Is that 25 million included in the 100 million, or is that extra? It's included, so that's why I've shown this table, so it shows that replenishment of the reserves, so they will be at the level that we need them to be at. Thank you. Okay, any more questions for Isabelle? I'll just say a bit of clarity on Number 2 on the recommendations. The finance subcommittee's working group is an advisory body, therefore it's not subject to political proportionality. Is that the right phrase? Thank you. So if we do adopt that, we're looking for four volunteers from at least four. There's not a cut off from the subcommittee to take part in that process, which I did last year for the first time, and I felt it was quite a useful and good learning process as well. So I'm happy to propose the recommendations as set out on page 193. Do I have a seconder for that? Councillor Drake, thank you. Does anybody wish to comment or make any contribution regarding the specific recommendations? No? Oh, sorry Janet. I would like it limited, please. I don't think it necessarily needs an amendment, but make it very clear that at this stage, when we approve the budget assumptions, they are the initial interim, not end-of-play assumptions, and that they are subject to change throughout this process. To the tape, both the chair and the girl are nodding vigorously at that. They are their assumptions, as at this point in time. Yes, absolutely. And it is those that the working group will work with, and obviously bring any changes to those assumptions to this committee and the corporate as well. And then, again, you already put in three approved indicative zoning properties, so it's just making sure that this is the very start of a technical process. Anybody else wish to comment before I ask for the vote? Sorry, are we entering into the debate here? Yes, sorry, I thought that you were making a, I said, it's been moved and set indeed, and I'm asking for contribution to the debate in new spoke. Want to speak again? Sorry, yeah, I just was really, you know, because we haven't actually taken the vote. Okay. So in terms of the wider debate on this, in terms of how we take this forward, I hear exactly what was said about the value for money directly, that's always really, really important. And one of the things that I think the public and the members always have difficulty with is that, particularly things like adult social care, children's care, and none of the services that we offer that have a statutory element, it is based on need. And unfortunately, there is always going to be that difference of perspective as to what people need in a statutory provision term, and what they feel they absolutely need. And it's, what they want, it's not the same and it's stripping that down in ways that people will understand. And certainly in terms of the document that you have provided here, which is the indicative allocation of the budget envelope. Bear in mind, these are indicative, and bearing in mind that we went to adult social care last night, there are some very, very big asks here. And I think we need to be absolutely honest when we are doing this. And we need to be honest with the public. This is a public meeting. There are going to be decisions here that are very painful and they will be ongoing. And I want to be sure that when we look at that chart that Councillor Anderson showed us the timeline, that we are making it very clear to the public at regular intervals where we are going and why we are going in that direction. It is so important that we don't just present decisions to the public without them having been part of that journey as well. Thank you. Fair points, good points. Anybody else want to speak regarding the specific recommendations? Okay. I will ask us to move to the vote if there is no further contributions. All those in favour of the recommendations, please show. Any against? Any abstention? Thank you very much. Just on recommendation two, at least four members of the sub-committee. What I will say is we will send an invite out to members of the sub-committee and it will come from your team, will it David? And it will be very helpful if you could give a date of the initial meeting when you send the invite out because it is no good for somebody volunteering if they are away on their holidays. So I was thinking if you can set a date and then invite invitations and we need a minimum of four, is that correct? It is, I didn't know if there was any possibility of volunteers today. Excellent. It is easy to take the names of those not volunteers. I think it is the two sorts actually. But again, we have volunteered and hopefully four of us. Well, that is a fair point. If members are not here today, they can put their hands up. Fiona? Yes, I have to check. When we did this process last year and we were a team person, I thought it was useful because the former actually went by bar to talk through items. What might assist people, though, in the amount of time of the year, is if we actually met on Tuesday, so I think it will work well for our team. That is allowable, isn't it? It is informal, so it can be via Teams and then you can move into an in-person later on in the year. That sounds good. So again, those two members who can't be present today, that is Councillor Kane and Councillor O'Leary, isn't it? If they can be made aware as well. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you. Moving on to item 7. This starts on page 243 of the agenda pack. This is the draft pre-audited financial statements for my wholly owned companies for 2023-24 and an out-turn update for 2023-24. Adele, again, you're going to introduce this. Thank you, Chair. So in front of you, this report gives you the summarised position of the wholly owned companies' financial statements for the period up until the 31st of March 2024 and also gives you an indication of dates in relation to the approval process for those financial statements. And it also contains an overall financial performance picture for the company as well, showing for ASTB reserves increasing up to 2 million and for the wholly owned companies' net core contract spending around 45, just over 45 million. So as a reminder, these statements are presented to you, but obviously it is the responsibility of the boards who actually manage the financial statements. But the financial statements provide information about the financial performance that is useful to a wide range of interested parties of which we clearly, as shareholder, are one of them. So what it gives you is it gives you an idea about what the services cost, where the money comes from and what significant events are during the year and what the company net worth is. You are not required to approve the pre-audit, so you're not pre-audit company statements. However, what this is, is it gives you an early indication of the key messages from those financial statements as part of the overall financial reporting for the group as shareholder. So I'm happy to take questions at this point. And the final outcome comes later in the year to us, doesn't it? Each September? I think it's cancelled into September. The dates that have to be, they have to be finally published is ordered before the 31st of December. Right, so we're muted then. Okay, thank you very much. Any questions for Adele on this matter? No questions? Okay, right. The recommendations are set out on page 244. It's an important piece of financial architecture. So even though we're noting it, it's an important part of our role as the shareholder to do so. I'm happy to propose that. Do we have a seconder? Councillor Brown. Does anybody wish to speak on the recommendations? Okay, I know we've got a member out of the room. Should I wait for that member to return? Okay, are we happy to receive the recommendation? All those in favour? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Any against? And Councillor Wilson didn't vote. Yeah. Okay, all right. So moving on to item eight, the appointments to working groups and wholly owned companies. These have been circulated ahead of the meeting tours. So effectively they're populating the recommendations which are on page 255 and 256. Unless there's any errors on that or last minute changes, I as your chair, I'm happy to propose those. You've all got them in front of you. We need one member for the extra care housing management board. I've been that nominee in the past. For the record, it's not the most onerous job. He hasn't met in the last three years, but I believe it may have some duties in the future regarding the future for the replacement for the Beechmere. But we don't know yet. That may not be. You're happy to send larger. Any speakers on this? All those in favour of those nominations? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Any against? And thank you for everybody volunteering to carry on and take the role. Okay, moving on to the work programme. We've got the work programme in front of us. David or Adele, do you want to leave on this? David, do you want to break the run that Adele's had up to now? Well, just to introduce a bit of variety and to allow our new chief finance officer the opportunity to get to grips, because there are a few matters that will need a little bit of the timing up. As you're aware, the last meeting on the 22nd of March was the last meeting of both that chief financial officer and indeed the clock of the meeting of many years. So your forward plan does have a number of matters that I do need to pick up from the minutes of the last meeting. So if I could direct members' attention to page six of the minutes, page six of this pack, which is in the minutes, you'll see that on page six that there is reference in the minutes to an issue there relating to, I think it's at the final bullet point of the first thing, a report in the first paragraph of council tax and business rates of the June committee. And similarly, on page seven, there is on the resolution there at recommendation three, a suggestion of informal sessions for May and June resulting to a self-assessment and an action plan for CITFA. There is also on page eight and recommendation seven, a unanimous agreement with this committee to seek further information and briefing on all of the assets of the local authority by way of shareholdings and companies. Now I appreciate that a small matter of a general election has got in the way, members have been extremely busy and indeed officers as well and picking up the fact there is a new chief finance officer, of course we have not managed to comply with all of those. So if you look up page eight of those minutes and the work programme, you'll see there are five bullet points which captures into a degree the issues we've just been through. So the first point for your work programme is to decide out of those five bullet points which ones will need to move forward to your September committee. You have on there, so the first one is the CITFA financial management code self-assessment, now again your new CFO may have a view on that, so I don't know if you want, and then for wholly owned companies is on this one, the finance subcommittee oversights of all the holdings, so that should be put on the September work programme. There is something that is bullet pointed as budget oversight report, and then the final one which is council tax and business rates collection. So those are the matters that are extant from the previous minutes, so those are the first one. Otherwise on your work programme for September, which you will find at page 267, your code update is on there, planning assumptions is back, your first financial review, pension scheme, enterprise Cheshire and Warrington Review, that is one of the companies at which we are retaining interest in, your financial code which I presume relates possibly to the CITFA matter, but that is on for November, so if you're content for that, so it's just in relation to sort of the only other issue is briefings from members, which was on the recommendation seven of page eight, so that needs to be on your forward plan. Okay and where do you think it's appropriate to slot that David? Well given that it's, I think there was a number of briefings that will be coming. Sorry does anybody know how to adjust the air conditioning in here? Okay sorry, sorry David. I would have thought possibly your September meeting, I appreciate the members of business, we now have the election and there's a number of people I understand canvassing at the moment, so we have the summer holiday period, so I think realistically it's probably not until September, the next series of briefings, if that's all right Sharon. Yeah starting in the beginning of September, yeah. Everybody comfortable with that? I think we'll all need a heart. Okay anything else on the work programme? Okay I'll take a sense of the meeting, we're happy to note that and they, and sorry Stuart as a visitor, don't give us lots of work and disappear. I just suggested earlier on when we looked at item five that there might be some benefit in some briefing being given to members regarding the management of assets of the council when they are being asked to make this, is this just some sort of training to be given sometime in the next period, not immediately but within the next period? I think assets actually comes within the remit of the economy and growth committee, so I think we need to perhaps have a conversation whether it comes here or to economy and growth. It might be worth in that case being members of both committees being appropriately trained, because it was clear in the report that it says that the council had an obligation to ensure when you were making decisions about what to do with your assets, particularly at, it's not just your estate, it's also other assets like investments and there was some training. I was thinking a tangible asset. Adele? So on your work programme we'll see that there is actually an item that picks up, so I'm just trying to find out if you've seen it, that it's around in January which is the MTFS strategy, so investment strategy, treasury management strategy, capital strategy and reserve strategy, so that should pick up all of those pieces but before then we'll make sure that there is training. What we'll make sure is that there is adequate training for members on the back before the report's coming. Could it be open to all members please, because it's something I'd quite like to do. Mr members can attend a briefing? In respect to member training, the general rule is that the more members that attend the training it tends to be the better both for the trainer and actually for the members in general, so if we are providing this level of training on essentially financial management in a local authority then usually that is open to as many members who we can invite. Okay, okay, yeah I think that's point well made to it and again assets are not just tangible they're also financial instruments as well. Okay that's the work programme and then no other quiz on that. Is it getting slightly less frozen in this room? I'm getting some thumbs up, it was very cold when we walked in. Right, an urgent decision, an urgent decision was required between meetings and it's set out on page 275. The decision's been taken and again I'd like to put on record thanks to Councillor Wilson for picking up the observer role at Obitas as well as answer at short notice. I think we just asked to note this so unless anybody specifically wants to speak on the matter or take a sense of the meeting and we're content to receive it. Thank you very much. Right, I've noticed we've been going for an hour and a half, do you want a break before after we go into part two or do you want to carry on straight through? Chair do you mind if we have a break after the exclusive? Yes, after we go into part two. Get somebody on the team. Yes, after we go into part two and let's go outside and have a quick warm. Okay, well item 11 is exclusion of the pressing public. I have to read this out the baton. The remaining item on the agenda today can change exempt information and needs to be considered in private. I as chair therefore move that the press and public be excluded from the meeting during consideration of the following items pursuant to section 100 a4 of the local government act 1972 on the grounds that they involve the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in paragraph three of part one of schedule 12a to the local government act 1972 and the public interest would not be served in publishing the information. I move that. Do I have a seconder? Councillor Wilson. All those in favour? Any against? Any abstentions? No, we now that is unanimously carried and we're now moving to part two. So it's just before four o'clock can we all be back in our seats at five past four because I know people have other appointments.