Transcript

and open the meeting so to everybody here this afternoon this great afternoon welcome today to today's meeting of Cheshire East Council's Economy and Growth Committee and we're in the committee suite at Westfield in Stambach my name is Councillor Nick Mannion and I'll be chairing the meeting this afternoon the meeting is being audio webcast and also a recording will be uploaded to the council's website as soon as possible after the meeting can I remind everybody to use the microphone when speaking speak clearly and only speak when invited to do so this will enable people who are listening in on the meeting today or to the subsequent broadcast to follow the meeting more easily I would like to take this opportunity as well to welcome Councillor Buchanan and Councillor Colm who are joining the committee and this is your first formal meeting of the Economy and Growth Committee so item one on the today's agenda is are there any apologies for absence yes chair we've got apologies from Councillor Michael Gorman, Councillor Connor Naismith Councillor Fiona Wilson and Councillor David Brown we have three substitute members Councillor David Edwards, Councillor Jill Rhodes and Councillor Sarah Bennett-Wake. Thank you for those members who have volunteered to act as substitutes for this afternoon's meeting okay moving on declarations of interest under item two I now formally ask are there any disclosable pecuniary interest other registrable interest and non registrable interest on any item on today's agenda with regard to members of the committee. I will open the matter by declaring in the interest of openness and a member of the Crew Town Board as the Cheshire East elected member nominee and I remind you that the Crew Town Board is an advisory board to the Economy and Growth Committee which acts as the accountable body. Are there any other declarations of interest? Councillor Rhodes. I was also in a sense of openness and transparency to the plan and a member of the Town Board as a representative of the organisation. Thank you. Councillor O'Leary. Chris. Thank you chair thank you it's not an item on the agenda but as the petition to save this month's is being received today I would like to declare an interest in that. Thank you very much. Okay now we move on to item three on this afternoon's agenda the minutes of our previous meeting that took place on the 12th of March this year and those minutes can be found on pages five to twelve of the agenda pack. Does any member who was present at our meeting who was here this afternoon have any issues of accuracy with the minutes? No that's reassuring. I therefore propose that the minutes be approved as a correct record. Do I have a second? Councillor Marshall. All those in favour? Any against and any abstentions? Thank you. We now move to item four, first substantive item on today's agenda. Public speaking. I have three people registered to speak this afternoon. I've got Mr. James Melling, Mr. Simon Brown and Mr. Simon Caporn. Is that the correct pronunciation? Or is it Caporn? Apologies. Okay I want to invite Mr. Melling to come forward as the owner in technical terms of the Save Gains Moss petition and to explain your petition to the committee. What I have done I've asked that the the header page of the petition is printed off and all members of the committee have got a copy in front of them. Mr. Melling you've got three minutes and I'll give you like a 15 second reminder if you need to wind up. Okay in your own time. So I'm James Melling and I'm a campaign manager for the Treasury Wildlife Trust, so represented the Treasury Wildlife Trust. The Treasury Wildlife Trust has warned the council about the Gains Moss development for over 10 years. When you read through our responses it paints a picture that this scheme has been an environmental failure from the start. In 2014 we objected because this scheme did not have an environmental statement. In 2015 we flagged a lack of ecological surveys in that there was no biodiversity compensation strategy. In 2017 we objected in the strongest possible terms flagging that the council had a duty to review this application as it failed to meet local and national planning policies. The environmental statement contained a number of inaccuracies and there was a failure to do the correct surveys. We told the strategic planning board in 2017 this is the most environmentally damaging scheme ever proposed in the Treasury. We told you that the destruction of biodiversity and stored carbon at this scale is unprecedented in recent decades. Councils are the apologists if you agree with us. In 2022 we objected against the unprecedented loss of biodiversity and highlighted that the application still failed to assess the adverse impact affected at least. Something that really should have been done at the outline of the climate variation stage. When you start to look at the chain of failures side by side the council must acknowledge that this scheme has never gone properly. The development site was designated as Dainsnot North the local wildlife site in 1972. The local wildlife site system captures all spaces that are the cornerstones of our natural world and are not covered by satisfactory reservations. They are not disposable. Do you know how much it was first offered to compensate for the loss of the local wildlife site? £220,000. That's apparently the value that was assigned to one of the most nature rich spaces in our county. Through our interventions we got the figure to £900,000 and while that might sound like a win, by our estimation the true value of the site's nature was about 2.5 million and in today's terms that will be about 5 million now. Dainsnot North is particularly difficult because it's home to the Willow tip. It's the most threatened bird in the UK and it thrives in wet weather but rarely travels far from its habitat. So when you destroy its habitat you risk the localised extinction of the species. Do you know how much the developer planned to compensate for the loss of the habitat of one of the most threatened species? 15 bird boxes. Someone thought that 15 bird boxes would be enough to save a red listed species. I'm sure you're also aware of the damaging implications of building up to the climate. Since this planning application came forward the government has published the English Peter Action Plan. The plan warns that our peatlands are susceptible to development. It makes it clear that the loss of peatland deposits should be avoided and even degrade the peatlands in the face of wild restoration. Since the interest of this committee is financial I would ask whether it is bound for money to the council to simultaneously restore one peatland whilst destroying another. In fact the one hectare of peatland being destroyed at pastures would be significantly flawed by the 54 hectares of peatland set to be destroyed at Danes Moss. I understand there are financial pressures on the council to accept the development but let's be honest this is not going to fix the funding prices facing local governments. Can we really justify destroying an irreplaceable habitat at such a short term financial gain? We therefore call from the council to scrap the development and review Danes Moss North of the local plan. So I leave the petition in your hands. Thank you very much, thank you James. Simon Brown do you wish to come speak? Unfortunately you only get two minutes. And again I'll give you a warning when you're getting towards the end. I'm Simon Brown, I'm part of the Safe Danes Moss group and I'm here representing today. I'm also at Parish Council in Pembroke but this is representing Safe Danes Moss. As James has mentioned it's a fantastic site, it's irreplaceable habitat of a very large area and we genuinely mean irreplaceable. It is that definition that can't just be mitigated against by relocating what's on the site and there's a lot of very special wildlife there. Over a thousand species have now been recorded and over 60 that are actually protected under NERC section 41. So it has a huge environmental benefit and I think there have been misconceptions about that in the past that there have been ecological benefit etc. It is completely false, it's a huge site for wildlife globally and Macclesfield is very lucky to be on this doorstep. So from the community point of view it's proven to be becoming more and more useful. More and more schools have been visiting Ash Grove, the local primary school which is only two minutes walk away. All the classes from Ash Grove are going to be having nature study on the James Moss development area over the next few weeks. So it's fantastic for the community. The wildlife events, Dawn Chloruses, moth cracking events, 170 moths in one evening. It's a very special site, that's an indication of really how diverse it is. So from a value point of view, obviously you know we might be looking at from the point of view of cost to date on putting this forward, potential you know cost for the value of land that can be developed but we are also looking at what's the value to the local community and going through the government sort of green book strategy and it's into the tens of millions that this is worth of community it's enhanced, protected as a green site. So we really believe that it doesn't stack up in housing numbers anymore. The 950 houses let's be honest are not needed. Macclesfield is meeting its numbers very happily even on the local plan. So it's not needed and we agree it's very much part of the position that the site should be removed from the local environment. Thank you. Thank you very much and I've left the chair with a number of these leaflets which have our vision for the site. So this is what we're proposing in terms of restoration and we're very happy if you could have a look because we've got a very positive vision. I didn't distribute them before these speakers because I wanted them to listen to the speakers as they look at the leaflet but they will get, there is one for each member of the committee. Thank you very much. And our third speaker today, Sam. Sam, you've got two minutes. Thank you. I am the Eneritus Professor in Ecology and Environment at Manchester Metropolitan University. I live in Macclesfield. I spent the past 30 years teaching and researching on treatments. As a scientist I believe any plans for buildings on and around Danes-Mossard are very ill conceived and also with policy direction from local and national government towards zero carbon and towards nature recovery. Development would bring destruction to the peatland, its deep carbon stores and rich wildlife habitat and also threaten the triple inside nature reserve adjoining due to potential impairment with its hydrology and chemistry in water. Drainage and drying out of peat increases carbon emissions but damaged peatlands can be restored and the Danes-Moss vision posed by Save Danes-Moss and Cheshire Wild Uptress is an alternative to housing development that benefits conservation of the carbon reserves, the wetland habitat and people's well-being. Peatlands can be redirected to careful management and water levels. This will improve carbon balance quite quickly and re-establish peat pot vegetation and move the ecosystem towards being a net carbon sink. Indeed successful restoration is very clear on the triple SINH reserve next door. You should explore the potential income streams that support peatland restoration. The government's Environment Land Management Scheme now offers premium payment rates for re-wetting peatland soils. The IECN Peatland Code enables peatland projects to market the climate benefits of restoration. Profitable wetland farming, otherwise known as polluting culture, is another possibility. I'm prepared to take any questions but I wish to - 15 seconds. Thank you very much. Right, for members of the committee I've got copies of the submission. As I say I didn't want to hand them out during the speakers but I wanted people to listen to what you were saying rather than look at the leaflet. What I'm going to do now I'm going to ask Mr. Scates to speak on this issue before we move on. Mr. Scates. Thank you, Chair. I think from the committee's point of view we were happy to receive this petition. However, the petition itself, the main actions of which don't sit with this committee, so I think the member and public speakers will have a future opportunity, excuse me, to present the - meet the representations, make a presentation of the petition to strategic planning board saying where the actions sit but the committee, you as Chair, are happy to receive this petition. Yeah, and for the benefit of those outside the room, I've formally read into the record that I've received the petition from the Save Danes Moss group and this will now be taken forward in due course. Thank you very much. I am not proposing to take any statements, comments, observations or proposals from members of the committee at this point in time on this matter but I think it's inevitable that as the council, as a significant landowner of the site, that this matter will at some point in time be on our agenda to future meeting. Thank you. I'll now move on. Thank you very much and I thank everybody who came today to speak. This is a safe journey home, bashing across the M6 which apparently is not very good at the moment. Okay, cheers. You're welcome to remain if you want. You can stay for as long as you wish. Thank you. We'll move on to item five on the agenda which starts on page 13 and it's the final out turn for the last municipal year 2023-24 and I'll ask Mr. Scates and Mr. Redding to present the report. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. I think Steve Redding could lead me in the introduction to the report please. Thanks, Peter. So yeah, this is the first of two important papers on the committee agenda today covering the final out position of 23-24 financial year. They're important to note that given the time of committee meetings, this has been reported in advance of a full out turn which is going to final sub committee later on this month on 25th of June. The report includes a short cover document followed by a detailed appendix which covers the out turn, some explanations and sets out the grants register, debt levels, capital programme and reserves for the economy committee. Turning to page 18, there's some detailed narrative and figures related to the economy committee so pulling out some important figures from there really. Overall, the Place Directorate is reporting an under spend of £3.6 million at the out turn position and that's set against a £94 million budget. That's an improvement of £3.7 million since the third financial review which is mainly a result of things like using reserves, being awarded additional income levels and continuing to hold vacancies. Turning to economy and growth specifically, there's an under spend value of £4.5 million against the net budget of £24.8 million and that's an improvement of £1.6 million from the third financial review. We're saying the budget originally approved in February 23, MTFS was £200,000 higher in the out turn budget and the key reason for change there is the reallocation of one of the MTFS items across place so a technical adjustment being made there but not material in this sort of budget. And then to look at some of the other key reasons, asset service, lots of activities taking place in all areas to try and reduce spend levels so asset service, some temporary mitigations and a one-off business ratio of £208k, stopping all non-essential spend, that's £57k benefit, holding vacancies, which is a £30k benefit and overachieving to income budgets of £82k. And the report goes on, it covers facilities management, £1.7 million spend there which includes lower spend on electricity and gas, that's £0.8 million and then reduce level business rates due to prior year appeals, that's a figure of £1.2 million. So substantial figures there plus economic development service and housing, again a substantial savings from vanity management, travel, supplies and services and use of grants. So overall a positive position for the service. Recommendations, so the committee is asked to consider the factors leading to a positive financial out turn of £4.3 million against the budget of £24.2 million. And to scrutinise the contents of Appendix 1 and note that any financial mitigation decisions requiring approval will be made in line with the relevant delegations. Thank you. Anything you want to add, Mr Gates? Thank you Chair. Just really to emphasise to members the headline figures in terms of the significant under spend within the place directorate and within the control of this committee, we can only spend a £4.5 million. There's significant restriction on our spending throughout the year, we have quite a large amount of vacancies which we are managing in order to achieve that public short thought. So it's a positive outlook for this committee, but we can be on this committee to the directorate and then to the council. We want to continue to be a positive benefit to the complete financial position of the council as an organisation. Happy to take questions along with my team. Any questions? Councillor O'Leary, Chris? Thank you Chair. I have some questions. First of all, on page 4 of the appendix, the £62,000 consultancy, can I ask why that wasn't recharged? On page 5, the £1 million overspend on responsive maintenance, can I get some more detail on that? Was that a single item per spend or was it a number of different smaller? I think that's particularly significant given that reactive repairs are always more expensive. Can we just take those two then or come back with the others? So for the rest of us, we don't lose that then. Mr Redding, the states? I can take those questions. Thank you Councillor O'Leary and thanks for highlighting the questions in advance as well. In terms of the consultancy work, it is our intention that we are employing any expert advice which doesn't exist within the organisation, within our teams, that we do try and recover that cost through a capital budget. Sometimes that's not possible because the particular piece of advice we need isn't subject to a capital programme. We do at times employ expert advice, particularly around valuation and that can lead to a capital receipt which has benefited with that valuation so we get some value return on that expenditure. But there are other projects which need some detail and expert evidence etc. A good example is we got some advice around some property title work around common to market quarter and that in essence unlocked the opportunity for that development to come forward which has been a success since its opening last year. So we use it strategically and tactically and we use it only when it's required. A second question was around responsive maintenance. At the start of the year we carried out an amount of forecasting for the likely expenditure in a reactive sense during the year. Throughout this year we have been victim of a high inflation rate so our initial forecast rate has been exceeded by inflationary measures of 14.8% was our calculation. So there's nothing specific, nothing individual, it's just a decreased cost during the year. I agree with your comment that planned maintenance is better than responsive maintenance. We have to make a judgment call as to the level of balance between those two decisions. And you've got a couple more questions I believe. Yeah that's fine. The first is relating to on page five the recharge of £350,000 to the UK SPF. Can I just get confirmation that this is not using grant funding to fund the existing services? And then the final question on page 11 there's an increase in debts of over six months. Could we get some explanation? I think Charles you were called from the last committee Charles is the lead on UK SPF and I think you can answer your first question. Okay Mr Jarvis. Yeah thank you Councillor O'Neill. I can confirm it's not substituted for current service activity. There is a 4% top slice of all UK shared responsibility that's allowed to basically manage the programme which is that 4% is significantly higher than £350,000. That pays for a new programme manager which is a new role that's brought in to deliver that activity. So we've seen the programme also pays for things such as the independent appraisal that all the projects went through and very heavily worked on that and the meeting process that we set up. So it's always elegant and then we've brought in additional staff to manage and oversee some activities that the business of your company are thinking of working with businesses and working through the debt process. And Councillor Shenton. Yeah and Councillor O'Neill's second question is regarding increasing the debt provision which is over six months old. We have found certainly since the pandemic where a lot of our tenants now have been in some difficulties we've really focused on trying to manage debts and debt recovery. Reason why the figure is as within the financial information is we are looking at some complicated leasing arrangements etc so we're trying to be as proactive and looking to recover those debts as quickly as possible but sometimes depending on the nature of the tenant or it could be an absentee tenant etc they are quite difficult to recover and we have to take a longer term view. The balance between the cost of legal action and the cost of providing the longer period of time for recovery of that debt is all managed within our estate's team so we deal with it proactively but it is all subject to heaven flow during the period of the year. Thank you. Any more questions? Councillor Cloudes. Thank you yes I've got some questions from the grants and capital areas. First of all on page 23 there's a reference to natural lending stewardship particularly around Tatton and I just wondered if you could provide a little bit more detail around that particularly in the case of Tatton and then on page 26 and 27 we've got details of the decarbonisation funding allocation so on page 26 there are four elements there which in total come to around nine million pounds and then on 28 sorry on page 30 there are some it looks as if they're sort of like corrections in the budget and I'm not quite sure where they fit in with that so if you could provide some clarity on that bear in mind that all the decarbonisation money as far as I understand has come from government and our successful applications for funding it's useful to know where we're up to with that spend and whether any is being carried over to the current school year and then the final question is on page 28 and again it's related to the shared prosperity fund but this is the rural aspects and again I'm not quite sure whether we've had um sort of oversight of projects within that rural element so some detail about that would be okay let's pick up the first one thank you maybe carol would you be positioned to respond on the Tatton side if not we can provide Councillor Cloyce with an answer on that thank you yeah I can't find the actual page that you um I'm sorry it's 23 with big numbers on our report let me just hear that page nine thank you of the actual appendix got more page nine than you can do is that something you can answer today or and what was the exact question right right so um on that uh page nine of the appendix it's the liberal item it's the stewardship skin and so it's um countryside stewardship grant given to both tassel park and countryside management for 10 years so it's something that we have every year would it be helpful if you could it would be helpful to me if you could circulate what the explanation of what the steward steps stewardship scheme it is yeah uh to the committee after the meeting thank you yeah I think that it's certainly helped me as well yeah okay thank you the second second point in terms of public sector decarbonisation bonds and disclosure rights we have benefited from a considerable amount of government funding which we've applied for and being successful in allocation and we've also in certain areas had to match that with our own funding we certainly applied it to buildings such as delamere and macclesfield properties also across the schools so within page 26 and you know identifying the structure of those those payments within capital program and I think your subsequent question was on page 29 sorry page 30 I think that's just environments from different budgets and I don't know whether Steve can add to that but were money and potentially for a match has been in a particular fund within the council have been wired into a particular project funding particularly other things schools is described here so just the transfer of money from an internal account to another internal account that's correct yes pages 29 and 30 similar technical dependencies which set out any supplementary or violence that's only facing one to three capital schemes so that might in fact be part of our contributions moving from one part of the council to another part of our contributions it's a way of identifying the match funding if that's if that's relevant to that particular grant funding criteria and what did I say yes rural shared prosperity again sorry uh yeah so I am I'm in charge of overseeing a bit more so I can certainly provide a little bit more performance in terms of the schemes that we provide from the board and then board issues well if I might ask for the rest of the commission yes okay no problem okay thank you very much any more questions on effectively appendix one to this report is it councilor happy after all those mine's quite a simple question how long are we planning on holding these vacancies and how long is it sustainable to hold vacancies questions thank you councilor and you know in briefings we've discussed this and I think I've highlighted that you know the amount of vacancies in across the place director you know is in that sort of 12 to 16 percent sort of bracket and in economy and growth a lot of those savings have been generated by vacancies and it's not sustainable in the median term it's it's a short-term reaction to the financial position I would hope that with the work that's being done by our transformation partner that you know we can identify a route forward in terms of structuring and that will enable capacity to be brought back into the departments just add to that again it's to carry the volume of vacancies in the teams that are currently there and still successfully bid for external funding and then deliver on that funding is a testament to the hard work of a lot of people at various levels of the council but mr skate said it said that one word that's that's key to this sustainable over the long term it's not sustainable and again um I would have thought the transformation program which we've just been barking upon will have some due consideration of of the challenges and prospects going forward so I'll decide to put on record my first will thanks and this is a look back to 23 24 to all the hard works in various parts of the place directorate who have delivered despite the fact they've been then taking the field at least one possibly two plays short on occasions to use the rugby and football analogy but thank you very much okay unless there's any more questions are in relation to appendix one I'd like to move to the recommendations and they're on page 14 in the box at the top the first recommendation is fairly straightforward it each to effectively um no receive the fact that we uh the we managed this committee managed to make savings which obviously they uh a portion of those were helped all the departments that's the right word and other parts of the place directorate and the second one uh and again we've we've had a series of questions probing questions in relation to some of the numbers and statements in appendix one I'm happy to propose we accept those recommendations do I have a second Councillor Klaus uh unless there's anybody in amendments I propose to move to the vote all those in favour of the recommendations as printed 10 11 any against any abstention we've got an abstention thank you very much that's carried okay we're moving on to the next item on our agenda this afternoon that's item six starting on page 33 and this is a look forward that's a great one to this year's service budget for 2022 2024-25 holidays and there is an error in the printed agenda the table on page 37 as it has it's circulated there is a an error I think columns have been transposed the correct table is on is on the desk in front of us when we got here this afternoon so and again I've asked Mr Redding and Mr Scates to introduce this item um thanks chair so yes uh second key finance report today uh the allocation of service budgets for 2024-25 um a slightly longer report this time I suppose two key issues here really in terms of allocated service budgets and some other items and also providing a sort of risk assessment of the commentary on the approved MTFS items for 2024-25 financial year um so I mean just to pick out some bits in the report here and it sets out the allocation of approved budgets for 2024-25 the economy growth committee as we know the medium term financial strategy report the MTFS the Cheshire council was approved by full council in the 27th of February 2024 and service committees have been allocated budgets uh in mind with the approved MTFS the financial reporting cycle will provide regular updates on progress on delivery of the budget change items the forecast outcomes position progress of capital schemes movement on reserves and the details of any supplementary estimates and violence and you know key messages in there about 24-25 financial year and you know it's essential with those all delivered in the floor and some you know most of the financial pressure space in the council in 2024-25 um they're both and that applies to both the revenue position and the capital program position where there's more to do uh to review the position for each one um the detailed appendix uh starts at page 45 and that covers uh a number of sections allocation of budgets risk assessments a capital program EMR reserves and then there's also an appendix b which sets out the detail reporting time table and that's at page 55 um looking at the risk assessment um that's covered each of the MTFS items in some details and there's a couple of red items on the list uh to do this restructuring and the office of state that's validation a number of amber items and quite a number of green items in there or completed items so they're provided in detail and that schedule will be updated throughout the year recommendations age 34 and to note the decision to allocate the budgets to the committee to note the country reporting time table and to review progress on the delivery the MTFS policy change items thank you so those red items on page 48 of their lines 49 and 51 they're the two mr skates anything you want to add thank you char um just obviously this look forward this is the first opportunity we've had the ability to to present members with our view and our outlook on the MTFS and how we are progressing this will change over the period of the year and we've identified two red items one item is around service restructures and that is due to a high cost of a saving that was identified to all of place directorate and just for clarification this is a figure which is reflective of all the responsibility for place it sits within this committee because it was deemed the simple one committee out of the three service committees that are in place and because economy and growth and we have more of our financial pipeline it was deemed that this could be the relevant committee value could sit on that so so for clarification that's highways and transport and environment and communities as well as economy as well as economy and growth and other aspects of some of the asdvs that currently sit on their place thank you so it has to sit within one service committee and we've identified so in the MTFS of 22 23 a figure over two years of two million pounds was identified as a saving for all of the directories last year you will see from the final outcome that we achieved one million pounds of that in the year about 600 of thousands of that was permanent savings and a further 400 000 it was savings in year again aligned to the vacancy management that we referred to in the previous report so it's rare because this remains our biggest challenge during the year we need to look at our vacancies in the short term that we you know expressing that it is not sustainable in the medium term it's certainly in the short term it's it is an available saving but we are also looking at the transformation program to provide some direction to enable the entire directorate to carry out a restructure that will generate those savings so that's the aim but we haven't got any tangible savings identified against that at this time we will look at other aspects across the directorate which could compensate in the air for any any lower savings that are going to be generated and item 51 on office rationalization members have a a report on today's agenda it's red because that was a decision that has to be made there is a decision made today that could move to an amber decision so it's just reflective of the position and the decision making process so chair we're happy to your questions any questions first of all confirm that the corrective table is exactly the same as the reserve strategy uh table on page 447 of the medium term financial strategy that was agreed in february by council that's my first question my second question is about the south maccleshill development area and there's just over 11 million pounds in the capital program for this year for building on danes moss is that likely to get spent and what are the consequences of any slippage and then on budget item 65 which is the 3.19 million growth item for utility bills i think we just already mentioned this can we just get confirmation that there's some reduction in utility costs is that going to affect that budget and is there some savings to be had there and then finally this is the i guess the big question in terms of savings yet to be identified obviously in the budget overall there's some 30 million of savings yet to be identified and that's only implemented and are there any for us as a community and if so will those require member approval and when will that be happening are you in a position to answer the first question mr ready okay thanks chair uh yes to confirm the mtfs approved in february page uh four four eight i think it is that's just the the table okay and i'm going to pick up the other teacher um correct me if i get these wrong by councilor mary um first question regarding smda in the capital program i think we would need to review that during the year and should they a strategic planning board consider the application and then i think it would reflect on on that decision and be able to update that any slippage you know would fall into following years there are financial benefits from slipping borrowing costs etc but we would review that once a decision is made in planning um second question um with regard to utility costs right and so uh 3.119 million um because that's within uh it's an item of growth and as you as you suggest you know we have seen a reduction in um the cost of utilities electricity and gas during the year and that figure of 3.19 is not just solely energy costs it does include an element for maintenance and business rates and there's also some nationalization savings in there and it's targeted at the minute that's growth target was estimated last year and i would hope that you know still positive direction in terms of the cost of utilities that there may be some opportunity for savings in that we will monitor it during the year and it may be that some of if there are any savings generated that could go to alleviate some of the other pressures within the uh within the department but it's it's potentially possible but in this world there are unknowns that come around the corner so at this year at this you know start of the financial year doing our forecasting that's our view and if we see that change during the year and become more confident of savings then we'll be able to report that to committee and enlighten you further just one other point okay yes chair it's just about um any savings that any saving line in the budgets uh where the savings weren't identified uh and where they might require member approval um when will they be coming forward to committee um in terms of any any sort of savings if we're not hitting the targets on on the red items and we're coming across with new alternatives and then there will be a process which um i think uh colleagues in finance and section 151 officer will be discussing with with finance subcommittee i imagine that will come forward over the next months and future committees about highly the whole um engagement process and consultation process will happen in terms of existing changes and future changes in the ntfs so i think that's something probably that will come forward through finance subcommittee that's my assumption at this time okay uh counselor powers uh thank you um first of all can i just say um a big thank you because um back in february january february when i had to go to every single service committee and present the conservative group proposals for the budget uh one of the things i asked at every single meeting was that there needed to be a better system for committee members to understand how we would be delivering the ntfs budget lines in each committee so that we could first of all offer better scrutiny and basically hold officers to account if we were not delivering those important budget lines in a timely way um so i see the rank rating element here and there's one on children and families yesterday as a real indication of accepting that um on board and uh for us to be able to look at these meetings to come and check and to actually see something green already is it's very exciting it's lots of it has lots of room well there is on this one not on all committees i can tell you now um so um the questions that i have actually are in relation to um first of all how are we going to better communicate across committees so for example i don't want to talk about five and ten of them because i don't want to venture into um part two elements but we know that when we are talking about for example some of those things that are in red um that these span more than one committee and certainly children and families there is an element of understanding about how that connectivity takes place but it wasn't by any means across the board so for example there wasn't an understanding of how one particular project might impact on high-res and transport or indeed how it might impact on adults and social care and in fact it does so um we still have work to do there and i just wondered if there were any mechanisms in place now that we are starting to get our drag racing to provide that cross committee um cross-pollination of you like so that we don't build into our systems in one committee decision making that might actually impact so that's the first one um and then in terms of um the um i'm just aware that you know there is something happening on the 4th of july and um hot dogs popcorn burgers oh that's the thing um but we need to be again cognizant of change that is happening whatever the result yeah and so i just wondered what sort of um work are we doing with our local government agencies against the background of that transformation plan that we're doing it's the peer review plan that we will have to do that's all got to be in by the end of august so i'm just wondering what work are we doing because it's very pertinent to economy and growth to make sure that we are ready to hit the ground running and that we have a number of um opportunities or are thinking about opportunities going forward i'll leave it there i don't want to go into too much detail but i think you know what i mean yeah and um there should be processes all of the other way and i just want assurance that that is the case that we are thinking ahead we are the rise of scaling and popping up let's show the which is actually a bit better uh thank you chair i'll take the first one in terms of cross committee uh course uh directed um first of all thank you very much for the comments around the design of proper papers and our endeavors to try and keep committee and have to speed with what is a very complex and fluid um and approach to financial management um i think a good example you mentioned the reds uh within economy and growth and you know the first one is not just economy growth it's how it's in transport and environment communities and you know i think briefings we've discussed ensuring that members of those committees are aware that something sits outside of their committees in economy and growth but has a relevance to those committees and i've followed that through um i'm so close and we are working closely with our partners our colleagues in children's and adults and the paper on the agenda today in part two is a demonstration of that and but we are ensuring through all of our projects that we do engage colleagues early we do understand what the key consequences and implications of decisions are not just on place but on children and adults you know high place and place shaping and place making and actually reduce the burden in the future and currently on adults and children's so those those conversations are happening happening we are continuing to strive to improve that and we have the transformation program which hopefully will assist that but also we've got money different management boards set up a minute to ensure that there is a dialogue happening right across and each of each of the directorates at different levels so and assurances that's what we're endeavoring to do and we will continue to do that in terms of um future horizon scanning with the outcome of the general election and place and economy and growth are putting fully into the transformation program and discussions with the transformation partner and that would form as you say representations to government so they're the ones that are having the conversations with dlock and government representatives but we are fully integrated and playing into that whole conversation we're looking at what options can be taken forward so that's a piece of ongoing work at the minute it hasn't been concluded but we're fully engaged in that so hopefully that will reduce the outcomes that you would be able to see as well may i just come back yes um so i appreciate what you're saying and that's that's encouraging um but there are if you like non-partisan external bodies that are providing real um insight and provision from a local government perspective so you've got the lga you've got the ccm those sorts of organizations irrespective of who is in charge on the fifth of july where you know we have fed into that in quite an active way so it would be you know how are we taking that on board as well we shouldn't forget what's outside as well as what we need to do and just to summarize we the budget set the budget monitoring process is starting earlier so now not at the end of the first quarter yet but also the budget preparation process for the coming year is going to start earlier and one thing that all the and all the parties seems to be challenged on is how local government is funded so hopefully when we see the manifestos published in the next few days next week i think most of them getting published will know what plans proposals they have for for the funding of local government and indeed it'll be interesting to see what they come up with regarding the funding for adult social care and especially acute issue is for send and so they'll be interested in i think the law people and i and that but ten that's right the you know county council's network and the lga uh are non-partisan i think that's the label that's appropriate label and there's a recognition that those elements have mentioned need to be reformed to a great extent so um i'm sure our officers are scanning that horizon we're quite sleeplessly okay it comes to the best story be very patient thank you okay any more questions on that okay right we've got recommendations set out in the box on page 34 i don't propose to read through them there are three of them um and i'm happy to uh i'm not i'm not by anybody coming forward with any amendments i'm happy to propose those recommendations on block do i have a seconder councilman cannon does anyone speak on them or are we happy to go straight to the vote i'm looking at the body of language around the room oh let's go straight to the vote all those in favor of those recommendations one two three four five six he's put his hand up sorry you couldn't see your hand any against one again absolutely okay thank you very much moving on now to item seven it starts on page 59 and it's just two towns from grant budget it's a budget reallocation and reports on pages 59 to 70 just for those who are substitutes to the committee or new to and are new to the committee as i mentioned during my declaration of interest uh cheshire council through the economy and growth committee are the accountable body for the towns fund allocation for crew so that's why it's coming to this committee for a formal decision uh peter skates charles davis and jess goodman uh thank you chair this report provides details of a proposed variation to the use of council and grants which is government grants 22.9 million pounds awarded in 2021 to support a range of regeneration projects and crew this funding is managed through an arrangement between crew town board the council as a accountable body and the government's department of housing communities and as a council body for the town's fund and the town for the council section 151 is required to approve any change requests to government however as the grant payments are part of the council's medium to financial strategy any reallocation of grant between projects in the town's program requires a committee decision at its meeting on the third of may the town board considered information related to the performance of projects including their expenditure forecasts council officers provided information of paying for each project and the level of options the town board took the decision recommended in this report that is a to reduce the towns fund grant allocation through repurposing our high streets project by the minimum amount required which is around three to seventeen thousand pounds and b to distribute the minimum amount of additional towns fund grant required for other projects to ensure the delivery and the quantity of output required by government taking this approach firstly minimizes the reduction of budget and outputs associated with repurposing my streets it also secures the youth zone project at oak street and subject to their co-funding strategy and the entire team being sufficient to be the partner and also meets the current forecast budget requirements for the cocky park and jubilee project and so that's a summary of the report i need to take any questions okay anybody any questions for the officers on the report council claus and council redstone um i do mr government um this isn't the first time we've had to um redo the towns fund and in terms of responding to different financial criteria coming forward um and we are talking about a government grant for this purpose that is being rejigged within the constraints of the guidelines and those projects um however i do have some great concern about the youth zone project i always have done it was not a model that we we looked at it closely back in the day and that we rejected it because of our various concerns about its sustainability over time but we are where we are and we are a long way advanced in this project but i'm concerned that already they are coming to us with a request for more money because of unanticipated rises in costs now that perhaps is not unexpected in the current context that we're all living in and whilst i i accept that this is a reasonable and rational way of sorting it out and that the other projects within the towns fund are not going to be significantly hindered by it and in fact the jubilee park site um you know i think is incredibly important may only be a pocket park but it's really important to improve um but in terms of moving forward with this two excuses in terms of taking this forward i just want it on record that this council cannot be responsible for any future expansioning costs that this project rises raises in a capital context yeah we can just about jig it now but they cannot come back to the table and ask for more money at a later date just on that point what we saw just can you offer council drowsing the rest of the committee on that a similar conversation was was hard to be accountable meeting in fact regarding the um the fact that they couldn't rely upon the towns fund or the council to book any future funding gap and actually charles jarvis was requested to to write to um on-site use zones to express that that sentiment and which has been has been done has been received and acknowledged so that it's clear as we can possibly make it we have made it clear that we are not going to be in a position to plug any funding gap if any emerges that said we are at a stage now they are at the stage now in terms of their design and development where they're looking to uh proceed with the construction of the project the main risk is is leading up to that point to a point of a contractor from the point of a point of a contract going forward they should have fixed tender prices so there should be relatively low risk of any uh inflation or an increase in budget being required from you from any other tool that's really interesting any more questions because we're sorry yes you did it um thank you yeah i also adopted your concern about this if i understand this right and maybe i don't but we are relying on a sponsor to unpart of this project is that correct so the project is being delivered by on-site youth zones which is a charity so they in turn raise funding from the multiple range of sources including in this particular one group from the government student investment fund so the majority of the funding is from another government source they also secure funding mainly revenue from charitable donations targeting um then donations from what they call high net worth individuals and so that campaign is ongoing they have already secured at least one and a half million pounds of which i think is a little bit domain already and they continue to explore other options to make sure that they are their model that is viable going forward and my understanding of all their projects that exists which is bringing into at least into double figures now across the country that they are still operational and all successful in raising funding from those resources any questions come back yes that's the front process there so we rely on a charity to pay for a fund to ensure that the council doesn't have any additional liability on this site is that what you're saying or are you saying that the if they don't get the additional funding the site will close and our fund our own liability will end so breaking this down into the construction and the operation in terms of the construction which is where my involvement is mainly in terms of uses use of the town's fund grant as it's a regeneration fund so we have confidence now that they have all the funding in place subject to this committee decision to proceed with the project because they've ensured sufficient funding and underwrite things to proceed in terms of the ongoing operational cost of it the council has got a 400 000 pound random revenue contribution identified in the mpfs for the first three years post-construction of the operation that's in the children's budget from the families so it's a different part of the ecosystem of the council and that is in place for three years but it's an expectation that there is funding raised from other sources but it is a i think it's fair to say that the committee considered this at the time and the council committed when it made the entry of the mpfs that that was a model that was tried and tested and then committed to that contribution without that time going forward obviously you know it is reliant upon them raising funds and but i think in the case of most projects there's always an expectation that the funds need to be raised it's not going to be an income generating project in terms of income it can take from young people or anything in the facility okay so can i just clarify so are you saying that the final liability of the esteemed rest of the council no you're not so if the funding doesn't carry on yeah we will not be any additional liability no obviously the council could decide to do that but my understanding is if they were unsuccessful in securing sufficient funding to operate they would basically have to downscale their operations or take other mitigating factors i think we're getting into the right to speculate speculation now as i say we we've sought and received reassurances and the partner we're working with has got a proven track record of raising this kind of sums involved and these issues were uh once they kicked about but we discussed robustly at the crew town board and they were reassured and confident in that the rep you know the repro filing was sustainable i'll take council rosewood did council files did you want to come back but i'll let council rose go first because she's not spoken yet council runs i know that we're concentrating on the week though because that is the reason with this paper but there are other projects who also are going to rely on charitable donations to be able to run their project on a day-to-day basis but use them not in the week and we're relying on a charitable donation that's all i say thank you thanks that contribution council clouds you've got you want to come back on something yes um so appreciate some of them you're focusing very much on capital cost and getting the project off the ground but i do think we need to be cognizant of the fact the next three years the children's department are having to budget and it's 400 000 a year for for this project which is a not inconsiderable amount of money is there then an opportunity under this model and it's not something i thought about until you mentioned it that if their sponsorship search is highly successful that maybe they don't need that money from pressure east council going forward that's a possibility but i wouldn't like to speculate i haven't really been part of those discussions around how that i believe it over 400 000 pounds was right there okay again very pertinent questions some quite firm reassurances have been received on the record this afternoon the recommendations are set out on page 60 there's uh into three paragraph i'm happy to propose those as they stand do i have a seconder councilor rolls does anybody want to speak on the specific recommendations or can i move this to the vote there's no show of hands so i will move to the vote it's proposed in second is all those in favor of the recommendations on page 60 one two three four five six one two three four five six any against any abstentions one two three four five six okay that's clearly carried thank you very much i know we've been going for over an hour but i i'll take a break at that after the end of this the next item this is how to make the work program which is on 71 to 74 of our agenda this afternoon um mr skates sure um nothing further to add really though the work program is has defined so i've had a few questions on it okay i'd just like to add to my comment earlier which may preclude you required to ask your question that was earlier in that obviously uh using the uh the model of how we've dealt with the hamforth garden village with regard to the smda matter obviously once we are aware of what the outcome of the various planning issues is then as a significant landholder on the site that will come back to us but again the the planning process has to be determined first so whilst i can provide reassurances from the chair that it will be on our work program and it will come back to this committee we're not it's not possible to give it a fixed time date slot at this point in time council leary uh yeah thank you chair uh chair you kind of stole my thought tonight one time purpose i just wanted to um what i would say though is that planning is the result of a strategy that this committee says about how it uses the council's land in the public interest so although uh i appreciate that you want to get the planning out of the way first actually we did agree as a committee to receive a report on all of the options that would be available to us and the financial consequences of those options which may should we make a decision based on that then change the planning strategies i would just point that out and i've got some questions about the first financial review and about can we just take the first one then yeah again it's what comes first the horse or the cart i think chair i would like to do further to a planning decision and this is the model we did use on garden village is to bring a paper which is a comprehensive paper of detail to this committee so all the facts that results from the planning decision are in place of in front of committee there are multiple aspects to be considered and i would like members to have all the facts before any decision is made okay moving on to you had a second point which to raise council uh thank you uh it's in terms of the first financial review which the committee is not looking at until september which would mean if there is any overspend that requires corrective action the council that the committee only has six months to do that and i just wonder why this committee meeting is in june and not in july and it had been in july he could have received the first quarter review in july and would have had two months longer to take direct action and i just wanted to clarify a point that you made earlier chair about the development of next year's entry events yeah could you suggest it that in fact this year is going to be at an earlier point and the work programme is currently on this agenda would suggest it is not because it looks like it's starting because that yeah that time that timetable will not be set by this committee that this committee will participate in that timetable but i you know it is a clear there's been a clear desire to start the budget setting process at an earliest possible stage now the mechanics of how that's done and delivered is not for this committee and we're bound by that the decision now whether that's uh corporate policy committee or financial committee i can't i don't know i would have thought it would have been corporate policy committee is adrian is that something that you can comment on at the stage or not or steve or is it for is it it's for another day as a safest and we want to start the budget setting process as early as possible the mechanics of it is still being worked out i think as well we need to incorporate into that the transformation program because that's a major factor but i think it's the reasonable point you made and you're pushing an open door there's mr skates do you want to add anything to that yes thank you chair thank you councillor leary i think um i think it would be something else the corporate policy committee would consider i am aware that we are trying to identify the the roadmap the timetable etc for that engagement in in addressing your first question i'm not too sure the fr1 position would be available in early january so it'll be in january that it's likely to fall with us so having a july committee is probably not going to resolve that we would need to see therefore one and and analyze it at that time so all of all the comments that you're raising in terms of early engagement are all being discussed at officers so it is the intention as as chair is as it invites to try and engage sooner and deal with some of those questions and solutions at the earliest opportunity while uh last minute in terms of previous mr leslie you want to yes chair thank you responding to council's inquiry i don't have anything to add anything you said or um mr skates has said but just to mention due to family emergency i'm having to step out at 3 30 p.m but julie gregory is going to cover for me and she might have if you want to check with her then more to add i really don't think there's anything more to be said at this time thanks go on then hope everything's okay right and that's the issue of the work program and oh sorry janet yeah i just really wanted to pick up on that because i would have asked those questions myself um but i have to say that um and this isn't this is just for observation under a cabinet system we have a quarter one with these in july so i still don't quite understand why we still can't have either a committee meeting in july and i'm thinking about this for next year because obviously we've set the calendar now but that also doesn't stop us from having informal meetings to discuss this particularly as we will want to be able to respond to whatever the transformation program brings forward at a very exacted case and we know that there are going to be significant budget challenges there and i am concerned that you know bearing in mind that i didn't know what was on the mtfs for the february council meeting until in some cases until three weeks before you know and i was having to go to all the committee meetings to find out because committee members didn't know either so you know we do need to get better at this yeah so i don't know what conversations you're having um you know within the group but it's got to be better than it was last year and this work table and i said exactly the same with children and families yesterday um this does not reflect an improved situation so please do go away and come up with some innovative ideas even if that means you know i'm sure we would all be happy to come to a team's meeting in one formal way to look at these things as early as stage as possible comments i've made at more than one financial committee meeting a record by what councilor is and we need to deliver it because another thing that i constantly ask the question is yes it's all right to know whether on budget or off budget or what and why but the most important question we as elected members want to know is what has been done to put it back on track but yeah um and i think the points are well made and um any final comments on that i'm sorry thank you chair um i've noted and i will feed that back chancellor claus um my finance colleagues will will probably advise you that i'm desperate to know what fr1 is or what fr 0.5 is because i want to know where we are as i want to try and do that forecasting as early as possible and you know i recall back in january when we all sat in this room in workshop form and i find that really really beneficial for myself and having some discussions about what what ideas and what innovative approaches could be so i'd like to do something similar with this committee i think i'll say that i think earliest possible opportunity i'll certainly share with the chair now there is another small matter in relation to the work program before i ask us to dispose of this item is we're required to schedule at least one of our meetings during the minute of the year is a twilight meeting well looking at the dates of for the rest of the year we've got the september november january march as a formal current formal set piece uh meeting this year so in conversation with the chair and you can't be here today i'd like to propose from this year that we because of we don't want to be people arriving at meetings in the dark never mind going home um that the september meeting commences at four o'clock rather than two o'clock i'll take a sense of the meeting and i know some of you substitutes here today and some of you are new but are we happy to invite officers to schedule the september meeting to commence at four o'clock rather than two to satisfy that requirement under the council's constitution yes of course the purpose of having a twilight meeting is to enable those who members who work from time to attend how does this will it not be better to start this meeting at six o'clock that's what this intention is not that i want kind of a meeting at six o'clock as i go to parish councils i'm used to doing so or even later so i'm just thinking what's the objective and if it's that then that's that's probably impressive i think one of the reasons that i've heard in other committees that four o'clock has been alighted on is for those members who have caring responsibilities it's less difficult at that time than it is it comes from six o'clock onwards i've i've got no dying of dicks preference whether it's four o'clock or six o'clock but we do need to make a decision today to allow to organize so i'm proposing from the chair it's four o'clock which apparently is fairly consistent with other committees is it offices summer starting at six summer starting at four i it's not it's not it's no whip tissue and council redstone's pointed out one of the disadvantages of four o'clock i've heard what some of the disadvantages are with a six o'clock start it's on the balance counselor we're coming um personally i think there are advantages and disadvantages whether it's four o'clock or six o'clock depending upon your own personal circumstances so you know i think we've just got to make a decision okay we'll take a straight should we take a straight vote on it for four or six um can i just for me the critical thing is also where is it going to be there's a macrosphere it's going to add an hour and a half both sides to my meeting i think most of our meetings are here aren't they yeah is the september one i don't think don't know whether it's to be here it's here in september may not be in this building i don't know i just i can't give you an answer to that so i i'll ask for a show of hands all those who prefer it to start at four o'clock in september please put your hand up one two three four five six seven eight those who would prefer it to start at six o'clock can i see your show of hands those were not bothered there for abstaining right we've got a first pass the post result in um at four o'clock so thank you very much so that disposes of item eight now so we have a short break now or do you want us to move into part two do you want to execute the press and public okay sorry item nine is the exclusion of the press and public i have to read verbatim this statement the committee has been asked to resolve that the press and public be excluded from the meeting during consideration of the next item pursuant pursuant to section 100 a4 of the local government act 1972 on the grounds that it involves likely disclosure of exempt information is defined in paragraph three of part one of schedule 12a of the local government act 1972 and the public interest would not be served in publishing the information therefore i propose that the press and public be excluded from the meeting during consideration of the next item pursuant pursuant to section 100 a4 of the local government at 1972 is that seconded councilman cannon all those in favor any against any abstentions you know thank you very much we're now moving to part two but we'll have a five-minute break five-minute comfort break thank you you can turn the table