Transcript

Welcome all to this annual general meeting of the Surrey Police and Crime panel. As the Committee Manager, I'll also take the first agenda item, which is the election of the Chairman, Agenda Item 1. The panel is asked to elect a Chairman for the year 2024 to 2025. We've received one nomination in advance of this meeting, which is for Councillor John Roubini to sit as Chair, proposed by Martin Stilwell and seconded by Councillor Barry Sheen. Are there any other nominations for Chairman for this meeting? I'll take that as a no, so therefore I'll take that as general assent that that's passed and we'll now hand over to the new Chairman, Councillor John Roubini. Thank you very much for your vote of confidence. Another year in the seat up here, so thank you all. Now, welcome to the annual meeting, because that's what it is today, the annual meeting of the Surrey Police and Crime panel. We have received notification that the Police and Crime Commissioner for Surrey, Lisa Townsend, which you all know, has given her apologies for this meeting and will not be attending as she is unwell, and we obviously wish her a speedy recovery. In light of this, we will not be taking Agenda Item 7, because obviously she's not here to answer questions, which is the introduction from the Surrey PCC. We'll look forward to questioning the Commissioner at our next meeting in September. I would like to welcome the other witnesses today, Chief Executive of the OPCC, Alison Bolton, thank you Alison, and the Head of Performance and Governance, Damien Marbrun, thank you Damien. And we also welcome the other officers in attendance, representing the OPCC. Thank you all for coming. I would also like to welcome the new panel members, and I'll try to take it too short, because there are a lot of new members. So first of all, Councillor Shanice Goldman, from Epson and Newell, thank you. Councillor James Baker, Rygate and Banstead. Councillor Mike Smith, from Runnymede. Councillor Tony Bol, from Spelthorn Borough Council. And Councillor Rebecca Poole, from Surrey County Council. Thank you. I'd like to record our thanks formally to former panel members for their help, assistance and questions over the time. Councillor Alex Coley, Councillor Victor Lewanski, Councillor Nick Prescott, Councillor Harry Bipari and Councillor Keith Whittam, thank you. Now it might be helpful to the new members to go round the table just very, very briefly, just to say who you are and what you represent. So if we could start off in the far corner, please. I'm James Baker from Rygate and Banstead Council and I represent Hawley, West and Sidlow. I've been a Councillor for about three years, four years now. I'm looking forward to it, thank you. I'm Councillor Shanice Goldman, representing Epson and Newell Borough Council. I've been a Councillor for a year and I'm looking forward to getting involved in the panel, thank you. I'm Councillor Richard Smith from Tandridge Council. This is my second year and I hope things carry on as they have. Thank you. I'm Councillor Richard Wilson from Surrey Heathborough Council. It's my pleasure to be here for a second year as well, thank you. I'll figure this out. Juliet Fryer, Independent. Martin Stilwell, Independent member. I've been a member for four years. Councillor John Robini, I represent Heysenmere and I've just been elected Chair again, thank you. I'm Jake Chambers, I'm the scrutiny officer from Suricat Council and the Committee Manager for the Police and Crime Panel. I'm Claire Madden and I'm the scrutiny Business Manager for the Surrey County Council. I'm Hannah Clark and I'm the Democratic Services Assistant. Barry Chain from Elbridge Borough Council. This is my third year. Councillor Ellen Nicholson, Woking Borough Council. It's my third year too. Councillor Paul Kennedy, it's my privilege to represent Moll Valley. It's my fourth year. Good morning everyone, I'm Councillor Rebecca Paul. It's great to be here, it's my first year and I'm representing Surrey County Council. Hi everyone, Councillor Mike Smith from Runnymede. I was elected to that council May last year and this is my first meeting here. I'm hoping to enjoy it. Hiya, my name's Tony Burrell, I'm from Spellthorne Borough Council and I've been a Councillor for a year and I'm looking forward to my time on the panel. Morning everyone, I'm Nathan Rees, I'm the Head of Communications for the Commissioner's Office. Good morning everyone, I'm Alison Bolton and I'm the Chief Executive of the PCC's Office so I head up a team that support the Police and Crime Commissioner. Morning everyone, I feel a bit greedy, I've already had an introduction but I'll give myself another one. I'm Damien Markland, Head of Performance and Governance in the PCC's Office. I used to look after Victim Services Commissioning and I've been, I think, coming along to this panel for about four years now, but I've been in the office for about ten. Thank you very much. Right, going back to the agenda now then, the pre-election period. As you're aware, we are now in the pre-election period for the general election taking place on Thursday the 4th of July and I know many members here are actually standing. Guidance has been issued to members and officers and I would like to remind members when presenting reports or asking questions to please refrain from endorsing or referencing any candidates or political parties standing in elections and any controversial political campaigns or policies related to the election. Social media, in line with our guidance on the use of social media, I am happy for anyone attending today's meeting to use social media provided that this does not disturb the business of the meeting. Webcasting, please may I remind you that this meeting is being webcast live and is open to the public, although I have the right to suspend filming if the need arises. Is that now on? Yes. So it is now on. Microphones, if any member or officer would like to speak during the discussion, they must indicate to the chairman of the committee that they wish to speak by raising their hand. When called by the chairman, press the button to speak clearly and directly into the microphone. To ensure members of the press and public know who is talking, please will members and officers introduce themselves when they speak for the first time. Members and officers must ensure they have switched off their microphone once they have finished speaking, otherwise it makes a horrible noise. And please can you ensure that your mobile phones are now switched off? So we come to the first item on this new agenda, which is the election of the vice chairman. Now the panel is asked to elect a vice chairman in the year 2425. Members are to note that Mr Martin Spillwell will not be standing for the vice president chairmanships for 2425 as he will be moving out of Surrey. So I will say thank you very much Martin for being vice chair for the last year. It's been a pleasure to actually work with you, thank you. And I do apologise for sometimes calling you a councillor. Nothing personal. So we've received one nomination in advance of this meeting, and that is for Ms Juliet Fryer, proposed by Martin Spillwell. Have we got a seconder? I'm happy to second that, chair. Thank you very much. In which case are there any other nominations? No, it sounds as though Juliet you have been elected as vice chair, so if you'd like to gather your things and move up here into the position that Martin has just vacated. Okay. Okay, thank you all for that. So we've now got a new vice chairman, and welcome to the position. Thank you, Jake. So we'll move on to the agenda item number three, which is apologies for absence. Have we any apologies, please? Apologies have been received for this meeting from Councillor Danielle Newson. Okay, do we all accept that? Thank you. Minutes of the previous meeting, 2nd of February. To approve the minutes of the previous meeting is subject to any corrections in relation to factor and accuracy. As you all know, we can only go by the factor and accuracy. This is not arising from those minutes. So are they approved? Do we all agree? Agreed? Thank you very much. Public questions? No public questions have been received, chair. Thank you. Now, introduction, sorry. I missed out the declarations of interest. Is there anybody here who has a declaration of interest? And have we received any? No, no declarations have been received in advance, thank you. And you've said that public questions are none received. So introduction from the Surrey Police and Crime Commissioner 24 to 28. As the PCC is not here, then we're going to take that away. So we won't read that out today, sorry. And we will take those questions you see printed when we do our September meeting. Surrey Police and Crime panel annual report, which is item number eight. Now, in accordance with the best practice of scrutiny and transparency, as noted in Schedule 3, in-year monitoring of information requirements, the Home Office Grant Agreement, an annual report by Police and Crime panels is an important key performance indicator to be monitored and reported on. This report provides a summary of this activity of the Surrey Police and Crime panel during 23/24 up to the election. So if I can hand over to Jake to present, please. Thank you very much. Yeah, the report is attached under a general item eight. I hope you all had the chance to prove that. And the recommendation is simply that members note the Surrey Police and Crime panel annual report, 23/24. So unless anyone has any specific questions, I'll just ask the panel to note that. Thank you very much. So is there anybody who wishes to ask a question? Yes. Just to raise a point on the report, if I may, Chairman. In the background, right at the bottom of page 16 in my pack, where there is reference to the panel holding the elected Police and Crime Commissioner to account. Technically, the legislation says support and scrutinise rather than hold to account. I know that may sound like semantics, but it should probably accurately reflect what's in the Act. Yes, I think you're right. Can we have that? Yeah, absolutely. That's noted. We can make that amendment. Thank you very much. Thank you. If there are no further questions, then can we note and agree that, please? Great. Thank you. So we then come on to agenda item number nine, PCC decisions and forward plan. This report provides information on the formal decisions taken by the PCC from March 23 to present and details of the OPCC's ongoing forward plan for 24/25. We're asked to note this again. Are there any questions that anybody wants to bring up? I would ask for one question. That's from me. And that's for any sort of update of when we might have this plan from the PCC. No, it's a good question. So we at the moment are putting together a methodology for the consultation. So we're going to be consulting with stakeholders during July, August and September. And we're looking to obviously come to the panel after that with the outcome of that consultation and a draft plan for the panel to have consideration of. And then obviously make recommendations if you feel it is appropriate to do so. And have you a timeline? Yes. So the consultation itself will be a series of focus groups and surveys during July, August and September. We'll need a little bit of time after that. I'm not sure exactly what the scheduling is in terms of the next panel meeting, but I'll liaise with Claire to make sure that we schedule it in not too long after the close of the consultation and the survey process. So we're talking towards the end of the year? Yeah. Lovely. Thanks for that clarification. Any other questions? Otherwise, again, can we just note that, please? Yep. Just noted. Thank you. So we then come on to Item 10, Recommendations, Tracker and Forward Work Programme. This is for the panel to track recommendations and actions made at formal panel meetings and to review upcoming agenda items. In light of the pre-election period, items that would usually be taken at the annual meeting on the Police and Crime Prevention Panel here, such as the Commissioner's annual report, have been deferred to the September meeting in light of the central government guidance. So what we've been asked to do is just note this report. Is there anybody who wants to say anything or do we just note it? I can't see any questions. We're really quiet. I'm not used to this. We're on Item 11 already. So can we note that then, please? Thank you. So we come on now to the complaints and finance. So first of all, the re-establishment of the complaints subcommittee. The panel is asked to reconstitute the complaints subcommittee for 24/25. Now we have had some volunteers, as you can see. So members of the panel should be advised that a meeting of the complaints subcommittee will be arranged to take place before 30 July 2024 in response to a recently submitted complaint. So the Police and Crime Panel is asked to appoint the following members to that committee for 24/25, filling the vacancies. Now you can see the list in front of you. Are all those happy to be on that panel that have been recommended? I can't see anybody. Isn't that good? So in that case, if we could ask, is there anybody else that has the burning ambition to go on to that complaints subcommittee? Chairman, could I just note that Ms. Juliet Fryer is on it as both vice chair and as the independent member. Yep, understood. And we'll sort that out. Yes, you haven't got a twin, have you? Not to my knowledge. Right. Okay. So if we can note the terms of reference of complaints subcommittee attached, is that Annex A and the Police Panel Complaints Protocol at Annex B? If there's nobody else that wants to join in, thank you very much. And I will read out that note. This group can be required to meet at short notice. If members are considering joining this committee, please be aware that some flexibility in schedule is required. And it can be a long drive as well, which you have to attend. You can't do it remotely because we all have to vote. So we have to come here to hear the complaints. But we are well advised. So when we do set up this first meeting, the new members will be aware of the protocol. Thank you. So we'll therefore go on to item number 12, which is the re-establishment of the finance sub-group, 24/25. So we need to reconstitute this sub-group. The Police and Crime Panel is asked to note the terms of reference of finance sub-group attached to Annex A and appoint the following members to finance sub-group, again fulfilling the vacancies. Now, there is a list there and we have all had all the lengtheners on. So is there anybody who's noted on there that doesn't really want to be on there? Nope. Good. Is there anybody who has a burning ambition to go on there? Nope. So we've sorted those two out. So if there's nobody interested in taking them up and everybody's happy with those members, thank you very much. Is there anything anybody would wish to say? Councillor Kennedy. Just obviously the same point that Mr Stilwell made before, that the Vice-Chairman appears twice now. So we could do with an extra person at least, I think, on that. You know, I do agree, and as you probably realised, as Mr Stilwell is standing down, we'll be having a look at new members. If you know of anybody who wants to come on here as an independent member, then please can you let Claire have all the details, because we will be holding interviews at a later stage to try and get another independent member at least. And there is something that we could do, perhaps get two if we can, so we end up hopefully with three. But we'll take that as it comes. Thank you. Is there any questions on that? I've been asked to actually read the members out. So on the Finance sub-group, we have the Chairman, that will now be me, the Vice-Chairman, which is Juliet, Councillor Barry Chain, Paul Kennedy, Councillor Shanice Goldman. And again, as noted, we have Juliet on here twice, until six times we get another independent member. So on the Complaints sub-committee, we have again the Chairman, myself, Vice-Chairman Juliet, Councillor Barry Chain, Councillor Shanice Goldman, Councillor James Baker, Councillor Rebecca Paul, and we'll sort out Juliet at the end as the independent member. So we need this other independent member. Yes, the public would not have seen that, would they? So it's nice for the public to actually hear who you are. Thank you very much. So the date of the next meeting of the panel is actually on Thursday the 26th of September 2024. If you could please don't date in your diaries. And if there are any members of the public, if you wish to come along or look at our site, then please do so. Be free to listen to what we're actually talking about. So now we'll move on with item 14, which is the confirmation hearing, the appointment of a Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner for Surrey. So first of all, I would like to welcome Ellie Vesey-Thompson to today's Police and Crime panel meeting. I can see her on that screen. I'm looking at her. There she is. So those members previously will know Ellie. Many of the new members may or may not know her, but that is Ellie on the screen. She's unable to come today because she's in fact up in the Lake District, which I think is a damn good idea. But there we are. It's nice and bright and sunny down here, Ellie, just to make you jealous. It's probably the best day we've had so far. The panel received formal notification of the proposed appointment to the role of Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner on Monday the 3rd of June, 2024. Following notification from the Police and Crime Commissioner, the Surrey Police and Crime panel has the responsibility to hold a confirmation hearing, which this is, in accordance with Schedule 1 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act of 2011. It's the Appendix C for the Surrey Police and Crime panel, confirmation hearing protocol for the Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner for Surrey. So hopefully we've all read that. So the panel is invited to question the candidate on whether she has the professional competence and personal independence to exercise on the role. Any questions not relating to professional competence and personal independence will be considered inappropriate. So as I read out, it's only the competence and independence. After we have dealt with the remaining ordinary business of the meeting, we will go into a private closed session under Part 2, Item 16 to decide upon our recommendation to the Commissioner. And the panel must make a recommendation in PCC regarding a proposed appointment. This may include a recommendation as to whether the individual should or should not be appointed. And I will then write on behalf of the panel to the Commissioner with the panel's recommendation. So we'll begin with asking the Commissioner to introduce the proposed appointment. Now, as the Commissioner is absent, if I can hand over to yourselves and perhaps you could introduce her. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. I should firstly echo the Chairman's comments earlier that Lisa Townsend is very sorry that she can't be here today due to illness. I know she was particularly keen to be here to introduce Ellie Vasey-Thompson's confirmation hearing. As the papers say, Ms. Vasey-Thompson has worked with Mrs. Townsend for the whole duration of her first term of office. The papers set out all of the details that you require in order to meet your statutory responsibilities and consider the appointment. And we will do as best as we can between us to answer any questions that you may have. Thank you, Anderson. Are there any general questions on the roll before we invite Ms. Vasey-Thompson to actually introduce herself? Councillor Kennedy. I just have a couple of preliminary questions which are probably best answered by officers, I suspect. The first one is what is the expected overall annual cost of appointing the Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner, including obviously their salary but also NICs, pension contributions, other benefits, expenses and costs borne by Surrey Police and other agencies, training, subscriptions, share of office costs and probably other things I hadn't thought of. Are you able to give us an estimate of what's in the current budget, I suppose, or what the annual expected cost is? Thank you, Councillor Kennedy. So the details of the Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner's salary are set out in the report. As an employer, the Police and Crime Commissioner would be obliged to meet the costs of national insurance contributions and pensions in the same way that any other employer would be. And those costs are factored into the OPCC's budget rather than Surrey Police's budget. I don't, off the top of my head, know what they would total up to. In terms of any training or subscriptions that the Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner would require during her term of office, we have a budget within the OPCC's operating budgets that would allow the deputy to access training in the same way that other members of staff would. So there's no specific budget set aside for Deputy PCC's training costs, for example, over and above other staff. Thank you. Councillor Kennedy, you have a second question, I believe. Yes, I've seen on the OPCC website various reference to the interim deputy. PCC has done this, has done that. And I'm just wondering what, obviously, since the appointment is not final, what is the current nature of the interim DPCC's working arrangements with the OPCC? And how will the interim DPCC be remunerated for this interim period if the appointment is or is not made? Certainly. So the appointment of the Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner cannot be made until the conclusion of the confirmation hearing process, which is today. But to allow Miss Faizy-Thompson to support the Commissioner in the first few weeks of her office, while we've been doing things such as setting out plans for the Police and Crime Plan and the consultation across the summer, the PCC appointed Miss Faizy-Thompson in an interim basis. And her terms and conditions during that time have been exactly as they were prior to the election. So just to confirm, if she were not appointed, then she would still be paid for what she has done up until the conclusion of the process? Yes. Thank you, Alison, for answering those questions. Councillor Kennedy, was there anything else, or is that it? That's it, thank you very much. Right, so I've now gone into the meat of this. If I could actually invite Miss Faizy-Thompson to introduce herself, please. First of all, though, do you have any procedural questions before we start? You have the opportunity to present the panel your understanding of the role before we begin the formal questioning. Over to you. Good morning, Chair. Good morning, everybody. Apologies again that I cannot be with you in person. As mentioned, I am up in the Lake District. I was booked to be on leave long before this date was put in the diary. I've done my best to shuffle things around, but unfortunately I'm joining you virtually. Before I begin, I echo the thanks to Mr Stilwell for his brilliant role as Vice Chair in the past year, and it's a shame that we're losing him from the panel. Welcome to lots of new members. I will very briefly introduce myself, but I think it's probably best to throw open to questions quickly so that you can find out the things that you want to find out. My understanding of the role is that I'm here to support the Commissioner. As those who have been on the panel in the previous year will understand, the way we have divided that loosely over the past term was that I lead on particular areas. That's not how deputies necessarily do it everywhere. Every role is slightly different. So I lead particularly on children and young people, rural crime and military and veterans, but I also support the Commissioner in all aspects of her role, including a lot of the public engagement. I'm very happy to leave it there, Chair, and hand over to questions because I think that's probably more helpful for panel members. Yes, thank you. I mean, obviously some of us here know you reasonably well, having worked with you over the last few years, but there are a lot of new members who won't understand you, so yes. So let's go on to questions then. So as I've said before, it's professional confidence we are talking about. So if we begin with, I think, Councillor Richard Wilson, you have a question? Thank you, Chair, and welcome, Ms Fazie-Thompson. You already have experience in the role of Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner. What do you think are the key qualities required for this role and what makes you the best possible candidate? And what have you learned through performing the role? Specifically, what have you learned from mistakes that you've made? Can you give an example of what you've learned from that? Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Wilson, and welcome back to the panel. I think one of the most important qualities for me is being able to work equally effectively alone and in a team. So the ability to get on with my own task, but also support the Commissioner, team, partners and sort of wider members in delivery of those wider scale projects. Being able to speak to a wide range of people on the right level for them and communicate often quite complicated information in a way that is audience appropriate. Patience and understanding has been regularly been really important, whether that's when speaking with officers, members of the public who have concerns, you know, understanding why people are frustrated and not automatically being overly defensive in response, but actually being able to support them in those frustrations. Sadly, my psychic skills are lacking, but an important quality is being able to assess the value or lack of something in the longer term, whether a particular decision will be the best decision in X number of years, what the legacy of that decision might be, which isn't always easy. I won't for a minute pretend I think I always get that right. But even knowing and, you know, taking the decision to take that pause and consider that is really important, particularly in a sector such as policing, which is often very fast paced. I think it's also been important to be able to take a step back and think about things, never being too embarrassed to ask why, or potentially stupid questions. I will never pretend to know something, pretend I know about something I don't. I don't think that's helpful to anyone. And it's also, you know, whilst there's been sweeping improvements, both in policing and politics for that matter. It's also often for me been about being the only woman and often the youngest person sometimes by quite a stretch in a room or around a table and not letting that stopping me speaking out against something or questioning something that I don't necessarily feel is right. It's really important to strike that balance between confidence and arrogance, so not being afraid to ask those questions, but also, as I said, never pretending to know more than I do. In terms of experience and what makes me the best candidate, obviously I've done the job for three years, given the Commissioner was re-elected with quite a few people that I spoke to, presuming that meant I would also continue in the role. I will happily take that as a vote of confidence, quite literally, both in the Commissioner and potentially myself and our ability to deliver as a team. In terms of mistakes, gosh, there will have been many. I don't pretend ever to be perfect. I think the most important thing that I've learned even more so in this role is, you know, it's important to admit to the mistakes, to fess up, to give people the ability to fix them, to work out where things could be done differently, where things can be changed, and not to try and cover those up. Thank you. supplementary? Sorry, just to clarify, can you give an example of one of the mistakes that you think is important to admit? Thank you. Can I think about that whilst other questions continue and come back to you on that one, Councillor? It's a sort of question that's thrown at me a little bit. My brain's not potentially functioning quite well on leave at the moment. No, it's fine. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. Good morning. You've worked with the Commissioner for some time now in the role of deputy, but what is your understanding of the Commissioner's vision and priorities and what role do you think that the deputy should play in delivering that overall plan? Thank you, Councillor Chayna, and welcome back again to the panel. I think the Commissioner's overarching vision is and always has been to be an accessible representative for the Surrey public and a critical friend to Surrey Police, supporting, holding into account as appropriate, which is, of course, a key part of the role. She is very passionate about the convening abilities that the role provides, bringing partners together to improve services and support for residents. Both Commissioner and I, since day one, have been equally committed to being as publicly accessible as possible, whether that's attending residence meetings, events, introducing surgery-style appointments for residents in need of assistance, which wasn't something that existed under the previous Commissioner. My role is and always has been very much to support this, and if reappointed, that will continue to be the case. I've also worked really hard to be visible internally, spending time with officers and staff across the force. That's really helped ensure that both Commissioner and I have an understanding of what's actually going on on the ground and any impacts that might have both on the public and internally on things like morale. It's also been important that I'm able to lead on the areas that Commissioner's delegated to me, so notably work around children and young people, rural crime. By me delivering in these areas, I enable Commissioner to focus on topics that she needs to focus on without needing to oversee my work in day-to-day detail. Thank you. A supplementary? Well, thank you for that answer, and bearing that in mind, what would you identify as the single most important challenge faced by SARI in the next three years, and how will the DPCC be able to assist in addressing this? Thank you, Councillor. I would say the single most I'd say is finance and politics. I appreciate that sounds like two, but given the nature of police funding, which the panel will understand, they're often very much intertwined. Those who have previously been on the panel will appreciate the savings that SARI police has to make over the next few years. We are making good progress, but we all appreciate that that's never an easy or pleasant task. I say politics because of the change and potential instability this will bring. A change of government, whichever party that might be, will always inevitably bring a change of priorities and ambitions, and at this stage I think we'll probably all accept that this change is inevitable post-July 4th. That unknown does present challenges for policing nationally, and SARI is not immune to that. Delivering on manifesto promises from I think pretty much all parties at this stage of thousands of additional officers also brings challenges, particularly when for a lot of those manifesto pledges that comes with no additional money. Returning members to this panel will know that us achieving our own SARI targets in the 20,000 uplift did require a huge recruitment push. Not only was that in itself difficult to reach, it also subsequently had a knock-on effect in other roles across the force, in staff and PCSO roles, where they transitioned into police officer roles. We do also therefore have to work to retain officers and staff we currently have. I wouldn't say that's an alarming concern, but it does feed into that wider challenge around increased recruitment targets. Whilst of course we will always welcome more police officers, we do need to acknowledge there are hidden, for want of a better word, challenges that come with that. There's also been smaller manifesto mentions around diverting funding away from commissioners, and I do worry here, as I know the commissioner does, for services that we currently fund and the impact that they will have on this loss, as well as the long-term impact that might have on prevention of crime in Surrey, which is something that we currently do really well as a county. Early rumours around scrapping of the PCC roles, particularly in a potential coalition government, has caused nervousness and uncertainty amongst partners, and those services that we commission as well, particularly given that there's not really been a clear plan laid out as to how that role will be replaced and where those functions would go. So it's unlikely that that sort of uncertainty will be resolved, even in the first 12 months of a new government, and I do think that anxiety will have implications for policing and partners. I think my role in that will be supporting the commissioner to keep things steady, to reassure partners, to communicate with partners as and when we get information so that we're keeping people up to date, and to work really closely with the force around any change in asks of them by government, by a potential new home secretary, to ensure that we're all just working together to deliver as best we can for the public. Thank you. Are there any other general questions? Otherwise we'll go on to the partnership. Oh, Councillor Kennedy? Thank you, Chairman, and yes, I was in the Lake District a few days ago. I'm very jealous of you. At the last hearing three years ago, the panel was concerned that I think they felt you would make an able assistant to the commissioner, but they were concerned that you didn't have the breadth and independence of experience to perform the wider, larger role of deputy. Are you able to point to any specifics that would allay those concerns now? To be honest, Councillor Kennedy, I am slightly not confused by the question, but I would appreciate a distinction from the panel between what you think an assistant commissioner would do that maybe a deputy wouldn't and where my skills might be lacking in that difference. I think I fulfilled the role for the past three years. I've met every challenge that's been thrown at me. I've spoken to many hundreds, thousands of residents, supported the commissioner in every sense. There's not yet been something that we've come across where I've not been able to do it because my skills have been lacking. But if you'd like me to elaborate further, please do let me know the difference between the role and where you think that gap might exist. I was simply quoting from the letter that was sent three years ago which suggested that you would make an able assistant but didn't have the broader role. If I can suggest one particular area which I think the commissioner has referred to on a number of occasions, you were sort of chairing or participating in the more detailed performance work. I think there are two levels of accountability and performance monitoring and that you were often doing that in the absence of the commissioner. Clearly the report, the Peel inspection report from last December was fairly scathing about Surrey police and identified that I think six of the seven repeated areas had deteriorated since the previous one. Do you feel any responsibility for the fact that those areas had deteriorated presumably while you were overseeing the performance monitoring? I'm going to slightly throw this one to the chief executive if that's okay because I'm not quite sure what reference the commissioner was making in that sense. There are various methods of oversight that we have with the force but I wouldn't say it's the case that I am often representing the commissioner in her absence. We quite often both appear at various meetings in terms of scrutiny and support of the force. I will cover for her on the occasions where she might be ill or otherwise engaged but I wouldn't say that's necessarily a frequent occurrence. The Peel report is what it is. I think as the panel will be aware from the commissioner's previous report on Peel, many of the challenges that were outlined within the report were actually things that we were already aware of as a force, whether that was due to the force's own understanding of its weaknesses or whether it was due to areas that the commissioner and I had highlighted between us. So by the time the report came out, actually a vast majority of the concerns raised had already been addressed or were well on their way to being addressed. But I will happily hand over to the chief exec to further clarify on that point. Councillor Kennedy. Addison, do you want to say anything? I'm not sure that I can add to that really. I mean, I think Miss Vadie-Thompson has covered her role around performance accountability comprehensively. Both the commissioner and deputy commissioner attend accountability and oversight meetings and both play an active role in pursuing any areas that may need closer scrutiny. I'm not conscious that Miss Vadie-Thompson has been substituting for the commissioner in those meetings on any great number of occasions. Thank you. Going on then, we'll go on to the partnership work. Councillor Burrell. Thank you, Chair and Miss Vadie-Thompson. Successful police work in the country relies on strong links between a number of different partner agencies. Can you demonstrate how you facilitated this in your previous term as DPCC and what plans you have for working with partners in the future? Thank you, Councillor Burrell and welcome to the panel. I'm actually going to start by reverting back to Councillor Wilson's question on mistakes, because it's actually been a really good reminder, this question. I think one of the mistakes I made particularly early on in roll was sort of underestimating the challenge of getting partners to work together. Sort of assuming that it might be easy and everyone would always be willing to work towards the same goal. It's not always easy and I think perhaps initially there was an underestimation on my part as to the motivation needed to get that going. To move on to your question, Councillor Burrell, I think it would be harder to outline something I've done or even the commissioner's done in roll that hasn't involved partner agencies to some extent. I facilitated and supported partnership work in a number of formats. To list just a few as some examples, I've co-chaired the Surrey Female Strategy Group, which looks at ways of reducing female offending and reoffending, which has involved partners from across the criminal justice sector, health, housing, so on. And Surrey was the first county in the region to adopt this. I've represented the commissioner and the OPCC in the development stages of Surrey's Vision Zero Strategy, which has been working with County Council, Fire and Rescue, Highways, Surrey Police and others. And that is at a stage where members of the panel will be seeing copies of that soon if they have not already. I've led numerous focus groups on behalf of the commissioner, sorry, my voice is going, with partners in the development of the first police and crime plan. And that's something I'll be supporting the commissioner on again, as was outlined by Mr Markland in his opening comments too. I've worked with agencies across the youth sector to understand challenges, gaps, where provision needs more support and establishing sort of where we've been best placed to help with funding or other forms of support. Sometimes that is just a simple case of putting people in touch with each other. It's quite a broad and varied county and sometimes people just don't know what other people are doing. I sit on the Civilian Military Partnership Board. I've worked with agencies across Surrey to support defence personnel and families through that. And that's included working with the board to help the OPCC achieve silver level status in the employer recognition scheme, which is something I and the office are all really proud of. And I've worked with a variety of rural organisations, NFU, BASC, CLA, so that local reps have had me as a really accessible point of contact. That's helped improve things for our rural community. And it's also helped improve confidence in policing amongst that community too. So that's sort of some historic things that I've worked on. I will continue to take a very similar approach to partnership work if reappointed. Thank you. Did you want to have a drink? Why are you OK? I will take a sip while the next question comes out. Thank you. Councillor Smith. Thank you, Chairman. And good morning, Ellie. Can I ask, how would you describe a successful relationship between the OPCC and this panel and how would you work to develop that relationship in Surrey over the next few years? Thank you, Councillor. And again, welcome to the panel. There's lots of new faces this year, which is lovely. I think the relationship between the panel and the PCC and indeed the wider OPCC needs to be mutually respectful and professional. I would hope that your colleagues who have been here for some time will agree that I've always endeavoured to work cooperatively with panel members, both at panel and externally. I'm sure Councillor Kennedy, among others, will attest to good human conversations we've had throughout even recently at the PCC count. I think it's always important to set politics aside and work together for the benefit of Surrey residents. The panel and the OPCC relationship with it should, of course, be largely apolitical. We're all here to represent all residents. And the panel, as outlined by the chief exec in comments around the report, are there to both scrutinise and support, the latter of which, if I'm honest, I think has probably been lacking a little bit recently in Surrey. I do think that's made it challenging when that is sort of made further challenging when members seek to undermine the post, not the person, but the post. For example, with views such as scrapping PCCs, which is, of course, a political view that I think we can all agree doesn't have a place at this panel. That's not the purpose of the panel. There is a limitation to how much I can work to develop that element, but as previously mentioned, I've always endeavoured to facilitate respectful working, cooperative working, even with those who have very publicly and quite personally criticised me on various occasions. There does need to be mutual trust, particularly on certain topics and information that is requested of us and of the force. They have, for example, in the past been issues where certain information of a sensitive nature that's been shared with the panel in good faith has appeared in the press, which is not helpful. That does really pose challenges for us and our relationship with the force in feeling confident to share as much as we might sometimes want to. We do want to be as transparent as possible all the time, both with the panel and the public. We are the only OPCC in the country that has a data hub, which is testament to our desire to be transparent, but we do need to be confident the information that we share with the panel that cannot, for whatever reason, yet be made public will be treated appropriately. We've had ongoing conversations about improving public awareness of and access to the panel, which I do think is important. I share the panel's goal to make that more accessible, to encourage more people to attend, to ask questions and to sort of understand what's going on with policing across Surrey. I know our brilliant comp team have been more than happy to support that and I hope that will continue. Thank you. Moving on then, deputising for the BCC, Councillor Barry. Okay. As the chairman just said, you could in your role as a deputy be called upon to deputise for the commissioner, maybe even on short notice. I'm going to roll two questions up into one here, if I can, because they are very related. First of all, what is your understanding of the role of the PCC and how it should work with the chief constable to deliver an effective and efficient police service in Surrey? And following on from there, what do you think are the key factors for success in a relationship between the PCC and the DPCC as well and the chief constable? Thank you, Councillor Jane. You're right, they are quite similar. I'll take the first one and then add a little bit in the second one. The commissioner's overarching role with the chief is, of course, to be a critical friend and that means to support where appropriate and scrutinise in question where necessary and needed. The commissioner is not there to be another chief constable, which may sound obvious to you on the panel, but believe me, it's not always obvious to others around the country. But they do need to work together to deliver for the public. Commissioner is ultimately the voice between Surrey Police, the chief constable, and the public. This is a two-way relationship and it involves establishing and communicating residents' concerns to the chief constable, as well as sharing his plans and the forces, changes and achievements with the public in return. It's important that both are honest with each other and with residents as well when things haven't gone as well as they should. And the commissioner scrutinises decisions and plans on behalf of the public, working with the chief to ensure that Surrey Police makes improvements and delivers where necessary. I think it's vital that the commissioner has good oversight of forced finances, ensuring that the chief's plans offer not necessarily the cheapest but the best value for money to the Surrey taxpayer. And that whenever the chief requests an increase in the council tax precept, that the options around this are fully scrutinised and any implications on a decision either way are fully understood by the commissioner and also communicated to the public. I think looking at factors for success in relationships, I'd also add the deputy chief constable to that equation. There's often work between the four of us at a senior level and that's really important. So trust, confidence, professionalism goes without saying. The ability to agree but also to agree to disagree and accept that that's okay is really important. We're not always going to have exactly the same views on every topic and being able to accept that in a healthy way is really important to help achieve what the force needs to achieve. The ability to be frank and honest with each other without things being misinterpreted or taken personally is really important. I think it's important that the chief appreciates, which I do think is the case currently in Surrey. The commissioner is there to support Surrey Police when needed but to provide that critique and scrutiny where appropriate and necessary. All four of us currently in those four roles do want the best for Surrey, both for the police and ultimately for the public. I think we are at the moment able to operate in a way where we all acknowledge that this is the greater purpose and that's what we're all working towards. An understanding of each other's roles is really key. We're in a good place on this in Surrey. As I said earlier, it's not the commissioner's role to be the chief constable and Lisa as commissioner has always been very clear and very strict on this. It's vitally important that this is understood by all of us at all times so that particularly in times of crisis or those sort of fast-paced, larger scale issues, we each understand the other's roles and don't hinder on each other's abilities to deliver those. Thank you. Did you have a second question? Okay. Councillor Kennedy. Just a supplementary on that. You talked about there has to be room for disagreement. Can you point to any particular examples where you disagreed with the commissioner and perhaps persuaded the commissioner to change her mind? Are you able to talk about any instances where you disagreed and you've essentially not been able to persuade her to change her mind? I think the commissioner would willingly admit that we disagree all the time and that's healthy. She's not appointed me to agree with her and deliver everything as instructed without question. As I said earlier, one of the key skills that I need in this role is to be able to question things when I don't feel they're right. Off the top of my head, I can't point to one recently. I'm sure the chief exec might be able to point to one that she recalls. But, you know, we regularly, both myself, commissioner and the team members in front of you, have very open discussions within the office about different ideas, different approaches to things where we disagree and we work together to sort of establish the best possible outcome for the Surrey public based on that. Chief Executive, is there anything you would like to add? I don't think I really can add to that either. I think Ellie has hit the nail on the head, really. It is a collaborative relationship. There are always discussions and debates around a variety of issues and Ellie brings a different perspective, which is one of the key reasons that Mrs. Townsend appointed her back in June 2021. Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Just quickly, a supplementary on this subject of deputising. Just to go back to something you said earlier, that the re-election of the PCC was a vote of confidence in you as well. Do you think that in May the public in Surrey effectively elected you and the PCC as a ticket? Thank you. No, I don't think that at all. And apologies if that was the impression I gave with that answer. What I did say was that there were a lot of people who assumed that the re-election of the commissioner would mean that I would stay in role, because obviously my role is tied to the commissioner's success or lack of in that instance. The commissioner was the one who was on the ballot paper and was the one that was elected. But I think had there been concerns about my ability to do the job from the Surrey public, that would have been raised during the election campaign. And that wasn't what I experienced. Thank you. So just moving on to the next line of inquiry, then, chair, if that's OK. So what experience do you have of organisational management and strategic decision making? Thank you, Councillor. I think everyone on this panel who is here as a result of an election, which is pretty much all of you, but two, I think at the moment, will understand that the level of strategic decision making involved in political campaigns. I've been involved in more of those. I'd like to think about quite a lot of experience from that perspective. But to give you a sort of specific example from previous life in a previous role, a nonpolitical previous role, I was contracted as a consultant to scope out the broadening of a client facing service within a company. And as a result of my work in that area, I actually ended up leading the roll out of an entirely new branch of the company, working on an aspect that the company had not previously delivered on, which opened up a new client base on an international scale and put the company in a much better position to weather the storm of Covid than had previously been the case, which was an unexpected plus, but a plus nonetheless. That also involved the restructure of the entire company in some existing areas, as well as the management of recruitment of new staff. And it involved the project management of projects spanning multiple countries with staff, teams, clients and others involved spread across multiple locations. So, you know, a fairly good level of experience in that sense. Over the past three years, I've supported the commissioner and the chief executive in changes to the staffing structure within the OPCC. And I've either driven or supported in other key decisions, too, for example, the ring fencing of money dedicated to projects and services specifically for children and young people was something that I really spearheaded early on. Thank you. Moving on, Councillor Baker. Hi, Ellie. What examples can you give your role to manage change and inspire colleagues to do things differently in a complex role such as this one? Thank you, Councillor. And welcome, another new member. As sort of mentioned in the previous question, managing change is something I've done quite a lot of. I think it makes most sense to use the past three years as an example. I think it's safe to say the arrival of the new commissioner and I three years ago brought a very different dynamic to the OPCC. New ways of working, not least because there were now two of us where there was just one before. New priorities, different ways of doing things. That's always a really big change for the team. And I think that's something I really helped to sort of inspire, encourage people to do things differently. I was sort of the one that came in with experience and understanding of how the commissioner likes to work and sort of played quite a key role in helping the office understand where they might need to be delivering differently or meeting her sort of requirements and needs more effectively. So yeah, I'd say I've done that sort of over the past three years. Thank you. Then moving on, rural crime and young people. Mr Stillwell. Thank you, German. Hello, Ellie. Before I ask a question about young people, just a bit of clarity. You mentioned at the beginning your speciality areas, get it out. Children and young people, rural crime. You mentioned something else which I didn't manage to write down. What was the third? No problem, Mr Stillwell. So it's military and veterans. So it is a smaller proportion of my time, but it is something I lead on for the commissioner. Lovely. Thanks for that. OK, question. The candidate suitability report references your work with young people. Please, can you explain what improvements you have made in this area? Thank you, Mr Stillwell. To ensure that we aren't here all day, because I'm sure you all have other things to do. I'll share sort of my three highlights so far, which I hope will help illustrate a sort of broad variety of the things we've been doing. So I've introduced the Youth Commission, which is now nearing the end of its second year. And that's really helped bring youth voice into policing and community safety across Surrey and has helped highlight learnings for us as an office, for Surrey police and for partners, which has been really important. And that's just one example of real change from them over the past year, which was based on the previous commission's report, is the imminent relaunch of the Pegasus card scheme in Surrey. For those who aren't familiar with Pegasus, this helps emergency services understand where someone might need more support in communicating, for example, whether that's due to disability, S.E.N., mental health challenges or other needs. The Youth Commission identified that adherence to that across Surrey had actually been really lacking. And as a result of them raising concerns in this area, not only is that being fixed, but the scheme is actually being broadened to support even more people. So I'm really proud of what the Youth Commission are delivering so far. We've also trialled bringing support from youth justice workers into custody for children, young people who are being NFA'd, no further actioned on their case. So that support was previously only existed for those who have come into custody and then had some form of outcome, whether that's a charge or other, which I felt meant we were really missing opportunity to intervene with those who had committed something that, you know, either was being no further action for various reasons, whether that was because it was low level and as a young person, they were sort of being led off with some kind of warning, but we were really missing opportunity to prevent them from reoffending and escalating that behaviour and therefore ending up in the criminal justice system. So we trialled a sort of form of support within Guilford custody for those young people. And we're currently assessing outcomes of that trial and how best we can then scale it up across the county in the long term. So that's something I'm really proud that we're sort of leading the way on nationally. And I think the other thing I'm really proud to have done is to just ensure that we've brought young people into what we do as business as usual and helping to provide them with opportunities. That's something I am and always have been really passionate about. So just a few examples of that. So we've supported the forces work experience programme, which brings young people into the force for a week and give some exposure to different parts. So our office delivers an input within that. We've had last year three summer interns from Royal Holloway who supported on three different projects across the OPCC. And also for the rebrand of the office, which happened not too long after the commissioner's first election. I suggested that we offered this out as a competition to young people across Surrey who might be looking for experience in graphic design. We offered a prize to help kickstart a design career for the young person who was successful, which included work experience with the local design agency who were brilliant. They then worked with that young person throughout that week of work experience to basically finalise the rebrand and show them how that works for clients. And I'm absolutely delighted that the young person who completed that work experience was actually recently offered a full time job with the agency once he graduated his course. They were just so impressed with his work. So I think, you know, just giving young people opportunities is something that I'm really passionate about continuing. Thank you very much. Thank you. Yes. Moving on to the next question. This is from me. The candidate suitability report also references your work in rural crime. As you're aware, both myself and Councillor Kennedy have been talking about rural crime for some years now and the improvement across Surrey. Please can you explain what improvements you have made in this area and perhaps you could relate it to the actual recording of rural crime. I know that was a big problem at one time. Thank you, Chair. I think it's safe to say that you, Councillor Kennedy, I will not always agree on many things, but we will always agree on the importance of rural crime. So I'm really glad to have that shared passion. One of the changes to rural crime since I started, which of course I cannot and would not ever try to take full credit for, but have been very much pushing for and supporting, is a move to a more joined up approach, both regionally and nationally. So I've been committed, whilst that's sort of been developing, to ensuring that Surrey has a strong voice at the table in both regional and national arenas. So as a result, I'm a board member of the National Rural Crime Network and I also sit on the Southeast Partnership Against Rural Crime on the commissioner's behalf. And that joined up approach is really key because it's ensuring we actually stop criminals rather than just pushing them around from one force to another. We're actually sort of getting to the root of the problem and really trying to eradicate that crime. It also brings us more support because we work as teams across the region to target specific groups and specific crimes so that we get in support from other forces when we're looking at a particular project. So that's really helpful. I think developing relationships with farmers and the rural community has been really important and also supporting our rural officers in doing the same. We've not historically served our rural community as well as we perhaps should and building those relationships has been a really important step in repairing that trust and confidence and also enabling those individuals to feel heard and that we care and that their voice matters. I was pleased recently to attend the second of a new format of Rural Crime Training Days, which has been led by one of our brilliant rural crime officers. She's been really instrumental in developing a greater understanding of rural crime across the force and at all levels and right across the sort of system of the force, if you like. So from the contact centre right up to those frontline officers responding to jobs. And that sort of really helped improve Surrey Police's response to and handling of rural cases. I know she's found it helpful to evidence to those attending that their support from myself and the commissioner for these improvements. And I think that's also helped attendees know that we really value those training opportunities and we really want them to be doing as well as they can for our rural communities. Yes, thank you. Just to go on from there very quickly. As I mentioned, are the police now recording the data properly under rural crime because of a lot of confusion about how it was recorded? This is not a question with a simple answer, unfortunately, and I will let Mr Markland add any comments he wants to afterwards. But there is no flag on the national police system for rural crime, which does make it challenging. It's about making sure that we identify the right cases and pass those on appropriately. I will be honest and say that's not yet perfect, but it is much better. I'm obviously in regular contact with our Royal Crime Officers and I know that they are getting many more jobs passed over to them overnight. Obviously, they will come in in the morning and assess what's coming under a rule nature that they might need to go and speak to their farmers about. So that is definitely improving. I think the other improvement that's helped, and this obviously doesn't help with recording accuracy, but what's helped is you may have seen in the news a few months ago, the new Royal Inspector committed that every farm across Surrey would have a visitor from their dedicated Royal Crime Officer. Whilst that was largely already happening, that commitment has really helped farmers ensure that they've got a point of contact. And we do have to explain that 999 is always the answer for an emergency as Royal Crime Officers don't work 24/7. But they do then have that point of contact for something that may be either slower time or where they don't feel that that follow up has been done appropriately. So they can reach out to that Royal Crime Officer directly. But I'll let Mr Markland add anything around data that he may wish to. Probably can't add too much more. I think unlike home office counting rules, as Ellie mentions, there's no national methodology you can easily fall back on with with Royal Crime. But, as alluded to, it's more about how you determine that locally and you're processing the data in a way that allows you to understand what's happening and making sure that operational decisions are informed properly. So I think Ellie's pretty much covered it, as I would have done. Thank you. Councillor Kennedy. Yes, just firstly to endorse what you said, Interim Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner, about the importance of rural crime and the importance of it not being overlooked. Last year in her annual report, the draft annual report that was presented to the panel, I had to point out that there was no mention at all of rural crime. The Commissioner immediately accepted that recommendation and amended the annual report. But, again, it's surprising, obviously, as the person who is responsible for promoting rural crime, can you explain how it was that the draft annual report that was presented to us didn't include one of your major areas of responsibility? Yeah, of course. Again, I'm going to hand over to Mr Markland on this one in terms of how the report was pulled together. I think when it comes to rural crime, and again, I think, Councillor Kennedy, we had conversations about this in the First Police and Crime Plan as well, about a potential lack of inclusion of rural aspects. I think one of the things that we sometimes assume is that rural crime is just rural crime specifically, but actually there's a lot of crime that affects rural communities that isn't necessarily labelled rural crime. So one of the other things I'm working on, for example, in the rural sector is domestic abuse and the additional challenges that come with domestic abuse when you're in a very rural situation and you're therefore even more vulnerable, you don't have a neighbour next door who can hear the shouts or the punches necessarily. So there's lots we do to support the rural community that isn't necessarily labelled rural crime. And actually, just to discuss domestic abuse a little bit more, we've actually introduced a rural specific IDFA, which is Independent Domestic Violence Advisor. We are, if not the first, one of the first counties in the country to do that. And in my role on the National Rural Crime Network, I'm really promoting that work and we've got a lot of interest from commissioners around the country in following the success of that to see if that can be rolled out elsewhere. So I accept your point, but I do think we need to appreciate that there are elements of other crimes that impact our rural communities that might not specifically be labelled, but Mr Markland may want to add to that. My answer's going to be quite dull, but essentially when you're putting the annual report together, you're trying to hit certain content that has to be included. And I think in that particular case, Paul, it was a case of the amalgamation process not giving enough focus to that area. And I think your point was quite valid and then the report was updated accordingly. So yeah, I think sometimes the mechanisms of producing the report sometimes mean that things get lost in the amalgamation. Councillor Kennedy. Just a quick clarification. Was Ms Beazey-Thompson fully involved in the preparation of the annual report at that stage? We as officers obviously help pull together initial content and then drafts are shared with both the DPCC and the PCC. And then that is ultimately what informs the version that gets sent to the panel and ultimately published. Thank you. We're moving on then to operational independence. Councillor Chain. Thank you, Chairman. I think you touched on this in the answer to my previous questions, but I don't know if you can dig a little deeper. Can you give us an explanation of your understanding of the term operational independence in the context of the relationship between the OPCC and the Chief Constable and ensuring that that separation of power is maintained? Thank you, Councillor. That is actually a brilliant question and something we get asked a lot, particularly by the public, who sort of don't quite understand all the time the commissioners' limits as well as as well as her role. I think the most basic explanation is the commissioner is, of course, responsible for, quote unquote, the totality of policing, i.e. policing as a whole. But that doesn't mean she can interfere in that day to day operational delivery of policing, which is at the sole discretion of the Chief Constable and his team of chief officers. So ultimately, the commissioner will be held to account by the public for policing as a whole, but she in turn holds the chief to account for the operational delivery on behalf of the public. So this means that, for example, the commissioner can't make operational decisions or orders to any officer of any rank, and that includes a broad range of limitations. So the commissioner could not ask a response officer, for example, to attend a specific burglary that's happened that a resident has been in touch with the commissioner or office about. And then on the sort of other end of that spectrum, she also doesn't make decisions around certain elements of recruitment. So, for example, the decision to temporarily freeze PCSO recruitment early last year was solely an operational one made by the chief constable and not something that the commissioner could interfere in. She can, of course, have a conversation with the chief and sort of question if she needs a bit more detail to understand the motives behind decisions. But ultimately, those those decisions are the responsibility of the chief constable. Thank you very much. Councillor Kennedy. I'm just wondering how how how those principles would apply at the local level. I think there was one incident incident that was reported to me during the PCC elections, I think, where I think yourself and the commissioner were handing out leaflets. I think one of the police, one of the new police officers was holding a surgery. You know, with with hindsight, would it have been better to have to not been there at the same time just to just enhance the reinforce separation? I don't think there was a way that the commissioner and I could have acted more appropriately in that scenario. We did not know that that stall was taking place when we arrived at the location that you're talking about. When we arrived, we obviously went and said hello to the officers because it's incredibly weird for us to be there as commissioner and deputy and not acknowledge their existence. We didn't have leaflets in our hands, nor did the commissioner. I hand out a single leaflet at that time. Indeed, as soon as we realised that the police were there, I personally asked people from from our party to ensure that they weren't anywhere near where the police were holding their stool. And the commissioner and I actually left the vicinity ourselves and actually went and waited elsewhere. There were other members of other political parties who were there engaging with the police as well as speaking to residents as well. So I don't think that's necessarily a criticism that can solely be directed at myself and the commissioner. And I do think that we handled that as well as we could in that scenario. We didn't know that they were going to be there. It wasn't planned. In hindsight, had we known they were going to be there in advance, maybe we wouldn't have turned up at all. But but that wasn't the case. Thank you very much. Going on then, Ms Fryer. Hi. As the role of DPC is not politically restricted, can you provide assurance that your conduct, if politically active, will not affect the political independence of the PCC? Thank you, Mrs Fryer. I'm slightly confused by the premise of the question as the commissioner herself isn't politically independent. She is, of course, obliged to serve all residents equally, which is something I know she and I would do even if not obligated. So the premise of the question, therefore, is a little bit confusing for me. Nevertheless, I have been politically unrestricted, so to speak, for the duration of my previous term. And I don't think that's ever interfered with my ability to represent the commissioner or support residents in any way. So I hope that helps clarify the situation. Thank you. Councillor Wilson. Thank you, Chair. If you participate in political activities after appointment to the role of DPC, how will you ensure that you will represent all of Surrey's residents equally and without favour? And specifically, if I could take you back to three years ago at the initial confirmation hearing, you were questioned about your political activities for the Conservative Party. And you justified attending Conservative Party conference because the Conservatives were in government and you had to speak to decision makers. So going back to your previous answer at the start about it being inevitable that government will change in a couple of weeks, will you be attending Labour Party conference? Will you be able to do that to represent people of Surrey? I will not be attending, not currently planning to attend Labour Party conference, nor do I think they would want me to attend the Labour Party conference. I will be, and I'm very happy to say that now, attending the Conservative Party conference. I don't have to justify that decision. I'm not politically restricted if reappointed. In terms of my ability to represent all the Surrey residents equally and without favour. I would firstly refer Councillor Wilson to my previous answer, but also point out that this would be in the same way that both he and other elected members of this panel also presumably do with their own residents. You are all elected, other than those who sit as independents, you're all elected as party political representatives. Yet I am confident that you all serve your residents equally, whether or not they voted for you. The same will apply for me in my role. Nobody voted for me, of course, but they voted for the Commissioner. The Commissioner and I will both serve residents equally whether or not they voted for the political party that we align with. Thank you. Councillor Kennedy. I think there have been a number of occasions when, as Councillors, we raise issues with the Commissioner's office and sometimes the Commissioner comes to meet us. I myself have invited you to come and visit my patch. I think the practice so far has been that you prefer to talk to Councillors from one particular party and then come and see Councillors from another political party. That's the practice of the Commissioner. On one occasion I think we had to wait two months to speak to you, whereas I think you and the Commissioner came to see someone from a different political party three days later. Are you satisfied with that approach? I guess it's the Commissioner's approach rather than necessarily yours. Or would you be open to speaking to all the Councillors from a particular ward or area rather than just those from a political party? In terms of the Commissioner's approach, that's something you'll have to ask her at a later date when she returns to panel. In terms of the specific incident you referenced where you had to wait a few months and apparently we then appeared with other parties a couple of days later. It's probably the case that that was in the diary for some time in advance. I'm pretty sure, and Alison as Chief Exec can attest to this, we often have a number of months waiting list for residence meetings because we get so many requests from across the county. There are two of us which helps, which means we can cover more ground, but there are many, many different residence groups and we try to spread ourselves as equally as possible across the county and ensure that people are heard as and when as soon as reasonably practical. I have and always have engaged with members of all political parties. Councillor Kennedy, yourself, Councillor Wilson have been at some of the Policing Your Community Roadshow events that we hosted. I covered for the Commissioner in Surrey Heath where Councillor Wilson was in attendance. Him and other members of the political party he was with asked multiple questions. I answered, the Chief Constable answered, you know, we don't not engage with anyone of any particular party. Unfortunately our diaries are often just very busy for weeks or if not months in advance. I don't know if there's anything the Chief Exec wants to add at this stage in the Commissioner's absence. Councillor Anderson. Only to say that, in my experience, if a request comes into the office for the Commissioner to meet with the local Councillor and there's a particular issue in that area that relates to policing or community safety, the Commissioner is always willing to do that. I think as Ellie says it's quite often a case of diaries. There are two of them and 11 boroughs and districts to cover so it isn't always possible to turn out within days or weeks even when these requests come in but there is no filter in our office in terms of political parties getting preference over another. Thank you. As we've always said this is our meeting. So is there any other Councillor who wishes to ask a question now before we close this part of the session? I can't see any hands. So Ms Fessy-Thompson, thank you for answering the questions put before you. Before we drill the hearing to a close, do you want to clarify any of the answers that you have given during the hearing? Thank you, Chair. I don't think so unless any panel members would like any extra clarity. Apologies, there's loads of planes currently scrambling over the top of where I am in the Lake District. So apologies if there's any additional noise but no, unless there's any points of clarity requested, I will leave as is and turn my mic off for you very quickly. Okay, or do you have any procedural questions about next steps going forward? I presume we'll be running in a similar way to previous hearing as you described at the start, Chair. You'll be discussing yourselves, writing a letter and we'll hear from you in the coming days. Yes, that's correct. So I'd like to thank you for attending today's confirmation hearing, at least by video anyway. We can see you and we can hear you quite clearly, thank you. In line with the confirmation hearing protocol, I will contact the Commissioner by the next working day with a recommendation regarding the appointment. The panel will hold a closed session in part two to agree its recommendation of Surrey Police and Crime Commissioner on whether or not to appoint the candidate as Deputy Force and Crime Commissioner for Surrey, although the panel does not have the power for veto. The Act allows the Police and Crime Commissioner the right to accept or reject the panel's recommendation. However, the Commissioner must inform the panel of her decision and is recommended a period of five working days should be announced before the recommendation of the panel are made public. Although this information can be released at an earlier stage, if there is mutual agreement between the panel and the PCC, and I will discuss this with the PCC in future. Alison, is there anything you wanted to add on the procedure lines? No, thank you, Chairman. Okay, thank you very much. So if I say then, please, on item 15, the exclusion of the public, to solve the public be excluded from the meeting during the following item of business, as likely in view of the nature of the business to be transacted, or the nature of the proceedings, that if members of the public were present during that item, there would be disclosure to them of exempt information within paragraph three, part one, schedule 12A to the Local Government Act of 1972. Being information relating to the financial business affairs of any particular person, including the authority holding the information. And further, in all the circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the public interest in disclosing that information. While there may be a public interest in disclosing this information, namely openness in the deliberations of the panel, in determining its recommendation regarding the proposed appointment, it is felt on balance this is outweighed by other factors in favour of maintaining the exemption, namely enabling a full discussion regarding the merits of the proposed appointment. Do we all agree that? Thank you very much. In that case, we will now switch off all the webcasting. and I would ask that you... Don't forget to subscribe to my channel.