Transcript

George. Thank you. And welcome to Overview and Scrutiny, 18th of June, and I'm sorry we have a late start, 10.02. There is no fire alarm test planned. Should the fire alarm sound, please leave the room and meet at the far end of the car park. Please keep points short and I ask members not to repeat points that have already been raised. Voting will be by show of hands and please indicate if you would like to speak on an item, either by pressing the digital or by show of hands. Should the meeting be adjourned, any filming must stop until the express permission from those being filmed has been obtained. Thank you. And apologies. Thank you, chair. Apologies from Katz's, Dawson, Parrott, Radford, Thorne, Hayes, Councillor Hook, and any other executive members who are not present. Thank you. Firstly, to approve the minutes of the 28th of May, are there any queries on the minutes? Thank you. May I have a proposer for their approval? Colin Parker. And may I have a seconder? And Councillor Henderson, thank you. And can we have her show of hands, please, to approve the minutes? And you can vote if you weren't present. So I've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Anyone against? Thank you. Anyone against? No. And abstentions? 5. Approved. That's carried, chair. I can put my own vote on that, actually. Thank you. So declarations of interest, do we have any declarations of interest, please? Councillor Parker. I think chair ought to declare an interest as chair of planning committee. Not that it'll make any difference, I'll be here for the debate, et cetera. So just thought I would note that as an interest to be noted. Thank you, Councillor Parker. Public questions, we have none. Councillor questions, we have none. So moving to point six, the executive forward plan can be found at the link shown in the agenda, presenting the issues to be considered by the executive over the next few months. Any issues wishing to be considered by this committee should be brought to the committee prior to the matter being considered by the executive. Does any member of the committee have any comments or questions? Thank you. Does any member of the executive have any comment? Sorry, Councillor Parker. I won't bring it up today, but I meant to be at the executive. I turned up late and there was questions to do with the assets. But I still haven't put my question into you, but I've got some questions for the assets department. I haven't had replies from my email, so I just wondered what's the best procedure. Thank you, Councillor Parker. I think there have been emails going out to ask if anyone does have questions on various items, but as the assets group hasn't been formed yet, hold on to those and we will send that information out. So thank you for that. Do we have any member of the executive with any comments or questions? No, thank you. So moving to item 7, scrutiny of executive decisions, 4th of June. The minutes can be found at the link in the agenda. Representatives from Southwest Water and hopefully the Environment Agency will be attending overview and scrutiny 16th of July and planning 23rd of July in relation to the executive minute number 55. Due to the pre-election period, the decision of executive will be actioned after the election. So this again references the emails that have asked if we have any questions so that we can all get our information together in advance of that. Are there any comments regarding that? Thank you. Moving to point 8, overview and scrutiny forward plan. Again this can be found at the link in the agenda, shows the issues to be considered by the committee and the proposal form should be used if members have any items they wish to add to the programme. Are there any comments or questions regarding this point? Thank you. Point 9, executive member biannual update. We have Councillor Williams on recycling, household waste and environmental health. Can I invite you to update the committee on your portfolio please? Hello, can you all hear me? Good morning all. This is going to be a very sort of a quick appraisal of where we are at the moment. Firstly I would like to thank Chris, David and Paul and their teams for the preparation of this as I was only appointed portfolio holder a couple of weeks ago. I would also like to thank Councillor Nuttall who has put a lot of work into this over the last 12 months as well. Right, here we go. So the first one we are going to be looking at is the waste and recycling. Which one did I press? Try that one. Nope. Good. I hope you can all see that. Right. Recycling rate has increased so far this year only by 0.1% but at least it's an increase to 53%. And the recycling tonnage has rose considerably. Increases have mainly come from garden waste collections and subscriptions are up as well. Now all this has actually put Teambridge in the top 12% of all districts nationwide. So it shows that the team are going in the right direction and I think in time where we are now looking to improve the recycling performances we can only see a positive growth in this area. We will continue to deliver recycling communications and projects regarding food waste in the future. Nope. Wrong way. Sorry. Right. The waste fleet decarbonation. The Timmouth District Council's vehicles fleet account for one third of the carbon footprint of the council. Following approval from the council in 2023, it was an essay to change the infrastructure and changes are underway. You'll be pleased to know 20 battery electrical vehicles are scheduled to arrive in October of this year and this is the first phase of the project. And the first batch of 12 refuge collection vehicles. These are the new ones. These are not electric. They are still the conventional diesel units. The electric ones are quite not up to the standard that we require due to the distances that we have to travel around the area. And that has improved performance already and they are actually quieter as well. The backlifts are now electric so they're not waking me up at quarter to seven on a Tuesday morning anymore which is jolly good news. And the rest of the recycling fleet will be delivered later this year. Right. National waste and resources strategy. I can never say strategy. There we go. There are no ways recycling is changing and I'll try and do this in an appraised situation where a lot of the responsibility may now be going on to the producers of the waste to make sure that their products are disposed of. You may notice if you travel around Europe and other places, aluminium cans now have a deposit on them so you can take them back to where you bought them from and get a year old back or something. Defra and I was quite surprised how much Defra has impact on the job we do and now looking at these deposit return schemes and simplifying the recycling. Now what that could have is a knock-on effect with the monies we receive from recycling. Aluminium is a big money earner and therefore we got to look at these and it's to whether it's we collect on behalf of other companies or we look to it another form of. We're also looking at other possibilities with the garden waste and whether there will be free waste collections on the garden in the future. Lots of things to take into account now. For the moment green waste will remain chargeable. Weekly food collections will still continue to all households. Caddy liners, we're waiting for the detail on the decision of how we're going to do that. At the moment that is intended to continue as we are. We are also looking at as to whether fortnightly collections for other refuges will continue. Other areas in Britain have tried now three weekly collections and that has gone reasonably well with no detriment to the service. And we're also now looking at the requirement to collect the tetra pack cartons of which there is no facility and also plastic film. Plastic film collections will be playing a part in the future because at the moment that just goes into your general waste unless you take it to a local supermarket there's a provision for it. We're well placed at the moment. We have options on the table to look at all of these and we also have options that with the trucks that we're receiving that they can easily be changed to accept the new requirements. So the waste of transfer stations changes to waste exemption legislation and the simpler recycling means significant investment will be required at our waste transfer station. New requirements mean that actually we have an outdoor transfer system over there. In time that will have to be covered. So we are looking at ways of now what is the best option for that. Again these are new requirements that are coming in from up above the line and the government and DEFRA. Also the sorting of equipment on site will need to be replaced to enable us to cope with the new provisions that we are going to be dealt with. Preliminary work is underway on this major project and further details will be brought to you as and when. So at the moment waste and recycling is going along quite nicely. It's meeting its targets and we have a very good overview for the future what is needed to progress and keep Teambridge a cleaner and greener environment. Right we also now move on to environmental health and licensing. Now I'm not really quite sure if anybody is aware of what comes under that and it's quite a big remit there. We've got the normal licenses but we've got gambling, we've got shellfish, we've got street planning, we've got taxes, vehicles, litter. That is really when I took it over a couple of weeks ago I was absolutely surprised by how much comes under that heading. It's a lot to do there and there's a really good team working behind the scenes on this one. Food safety, inspections and audits, complaint investigation, food hygiene rating, hygiene training, food and shellfish sampling is one of them, health and safety, licensing for caravan sites, animal welfare, hackney carriages and private heart, private license, temporary events, street trading, street collections and gambling, health protection, infectious diseases, zoonotic infection, outbreak investigations and cryptosporidium in water all comes under this department. Along with noise pollution, light pollution, industrial pollution, we've got emergency planning, preparing the council and its residents for emergency responses. Environmental wardens, we've got dog fouling, littering, fly tipping, stray dogs and abandoned vehicles. And if I remember rightly there are four environmental wardens and abatement officers working with us to keep all this under control. And we also have a bit in the port and house with ship sanitisation, inspections and sampling of food and water. It is quite a significant project and again the team are working well with it and they're on top of everything. Right, this is a new one that's come in to the remit. You may all be aware of a few weeks ago there was issues at a funeral director up in the Hull area where it seems that bodies were not being dealt with in the correct manner. In response to these events in the Hull and the East Raid Riding, it's recognised that local government has limited experience in this area. In May the government asked for visits to be undertaken to all funeral directors in the district by competent environmental health staff and welcome assurances we have visited and that all is in order. There is no real licensing for funeral directors. Though there are governing bodies within the trade, there is no strict licensing. So we have done our own visits to the local areas and we find that everyone that we have been to now is working in accordance with how they should be. The main things are the National Association of Funeral Directors and the National Society of Allied and Independent Funeral Directors are the only governing bodies just to add a bit of flesh onto those bones. Fly tipping. The team have dealt with 312 fly tipping incidents this year alone. Last year they dealt with over 500 incidents. Every case that has evidence is investigated. We issue fixed penalty notices for those who admit the offence. The fines are all increased this year and we now have a sliding scale for fly tipping where the more serious fly tips, i.e. large lorry loads, hazardous waste get at least a thousand pound fine. Where the offence is serious or the person responsible doesn't accept a fixed penalty notice we will prosecute. It can take a long time for these to come to court but when they do you will get the headlines to support them. A lot of the fly tipping is in areas we can't cover. I had a chat with things like putting CCTV's, random CCTV's in this area. Unfortunately these people know that those areas you can't get the connections for the televisions. We are looking at ways now of deterring a few of them and we had a chat last Thursday on it so there's a couple more ideas kicking around. Fly tipping is unacceptable and we will do our best to put an end to it. The department has to do statutory returns and it's quite a lot of these and they do spend a lot of time doing these reports and all I can say is that if you just want to read through those up there I have now confirmed that all our reports are up to date to the correct bodies, to the government bodies, so we're not lagging behind any of them. We've preempted a couple of them knowing that we're going to get an answer back with further information requested. We've hopefully seen that coming and we're already working on those answers that we may require further indication. The longer we leave it, the longer it takes. Proactivity is really where we're going to be on this and make sure things move quickly and effectively and efficiently and certainly with the team that's there at the moment that is looking really, really good. Just coming to the end of this now, anything that we've talked about, waste and recycling, licensing, environment, as councillors we're all getting emails from our residents about certain things. Everything you should need should be on the Teambridge website, so before firing off an email to one of the account managers at Teambridge, have a look on the website. It may save an email and it may be able for you to direct your inquiry quicker to the resident that is asking about it. That, good folk, concludes today's entertainment. I dare to say anyone's got any questions, I'm willing to have a go, provided it's not too strenuous. If you do want anything, probably the best thing is to send me an email and then I will forward it to the appropriate people. Any questions? Go on then. >> I'd like to thank officers because we had a particular issue with noise in my ward. I'm working with Dartmoor National Park Authority, we did get a suitable resolution, so officers worked really hard for that. I don't think we say enough thanks often enough, so to be fair to the officers in Environmental Health and the officers in planning in Dartmoor, they did work really hard and we're going through a resolution. So I want to pass on my thanks to the officers because we will go through personal experiences within the ward. I've got a couple of questions about recycling. So if you drink a can of drink and you put that can of drink in a waste paper bin in Teenbridge, you can't recycle it in my ward, it has to go in a general waste paper or waste container in the street. Does that get recycled back and forth to Brunel Road?

I don't know, but I can find the answer for you. Because I'm getting many residents asking about tetra packaging. I know there's a rollout plan but they're frustrated that neighboring authorities are recycling tetra, but you can't in Teenbridge. I keep on saying it's on its way, but people see there's money in tin and aluminium, you acknowledge it yourself, and Ashburn and Buckfastly have lost this recycling bin for aluminium. What do we have to do to get it back to drive the agenda of recycling and drive awareness? And then there's businesses in the ward putting bottles in the bottle banks, so there's money in glass. How can we work across the wards to try and drive the agenda through school children, I want to suggest, because they nag their parents to recycle more? And working with officers at DCC and the schools, most importantly, would there be support to work with the school children? Because they're the answer to getting recycling rates up. >> I'll come back to you on that one, if I may. But yes, I will certainly get the answers, and it's points well brought up. Thank you very much. I'll send you my bits on email. >> Send it over to me, then I'll definitely get all of it. Okay? Thank you. >> Thank you, Councillor Rogers. And my apologies, Councillor Boulavent, because you were actually ahead of him in the questioning. So, Councillor Boulavent, thank you. >> Thank you for that, and thank you for the presentation. And I do recognise, only a couple of weeks into the role, you won't have answers to the questions I'm about to put. This is an oversight and scrutiny committee, and therefore its focus is very much on what is happening in the marketplace, what is happening out there, and the feedback from issues that you face. A key issue for me, I presume for the committee, is understanding the strategic plan that you have, and recognising in waste recycling, we've seen a fall in performance, even at 0.1% over the last year, still doesn't take it back to what it was four years ago, five years ago. So what is the strategic plan in place to correct that? And get the recycling rates up to the levels that your manifesto promised? I'd appreciate, in due course, feedback as to what that strategic plan is and how you intend to do it. In terms of the environmental control issues, again, the issue is, what are the strategic objectives that the executive have to improve or change the performance within their area? I haven't seen anything about that, and therefore, as oversight and scrutiny, I believe it's essential that we understand the direction of travel that you intend to take that function. And I do recognise the sterling work and the excellent work that the officers are doing, but I think from a strategic point of view, we need to understand what it is that this executive is seeking to do to change to modify what they're doing at the moment. The last thing is, as you will be well aware, there is a financial issue facing this Council, so I'd appreciate details of what it is that your area's responsibility intend to do to work towards addressing some of those issues, of how we're going to contribute to the additional savings that this Council needs to make over the next two or three years. I'd appreciate all of those things. I would not expect you to be able to answer them now, but ask you to communicate back to the committee in due course over the next month or so with some specific details of what is happening and how you intend to address the issues. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Thank you for those questions, Councillor Belevin. I think some of them are incorporated in the medium-term financial plan working group as well, but fully accept your questioning, because we do need to know what the executives are doing. Do you have a response? No, but I have made the notes. I have got the Councillor's questions in front of me. I will speak to my colleagues, and I will bring the report back to your end, hopefully in time for your next meeting. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Councillor Swain. A while ago, when we discussed the move to electric vehicles, there was quite a lot of detail about a new site further down Brunel Road for the charging and so forth, but that wasn't mentioned today, but you did talk about the centre just here needing to be covered. That represents a big investment. Is the other site also still being developed? Is that just for the vehicles and this is just for the processing the waste? Can you just clarify the relation between those two sites and make sure they're joined up? I can do, but again, I will have to come back to you on that one, because I haven't even been told about that one, so I will do that. I've been cramming for two weeks. I quite understand. So electric vehicle site, I'll come back to you on that one, Councillor. No problem at all. Thank you. And Councillor Hall. Thank you. What did you expect the overall impact on the emissions level the new 12 electric fleet will have? They will be reduced because they're modern engines. The lifts at the back which empty the bin were petrol driven, I believe beforehand, part of the engines. They're now electrically driven, so you've got a reduction there. You've also got the modern economic engines in the new refuge which run on a lighter fuel. I'm not a mechanic. I'm not a car. Key one end, petrol the other or electric the other. What happens in between, I really don't know. But generally, everything we have done with the vehicles is to improve their reliability, their performance and to reduce the carbon footprint that we are challenging to meet the targets by. Thank you. As the post holder has said, any responses that he doesn't have answers for will be fed back to us, probably through the members newsletter. Councillor Parker, please. Yeah, thank you, Chair. I was interested, you talked about the funeral directors and although they've got regulations within their bodies, their respective bodies, and you said that we're doing visits, because obviously it was very sad occurrence up in Hull, and are we required to have a licensing team bridge regarding, you know, funeral directors? I wasn't quite sure from your presentation whether that was the case. I asked that question when I was told about this last week and apparently no. Anyone can set up as a funeral director, I believe, and then you join one of these affiliated groups or you have the option of joining it, who will then give you guidelines as to how it should be done. But it appears, you know, if you're lost about three o'clock this afternoon and want to set up a new business, yeah. You can just do it, apparently. Is that likely to change? I think in the light of everything, when you get things like this, things do change, and it is sometimes shutting the door after the voice is bolted, but that happens all the time in this world. Thank you. Do we have any further questions for the post holder, please? I have one which actually links to Councillor Bullivant, where he said that the recycling is now less than it was four years ago, and I don't know whether Councillor Bullivant might want to join in on this, whether that's based on percentage return performance or whether there is a volume impact, because I wonder if we're actually dealing with a greater volume of waste, which wouldn't be reflected in the percentage. Would you know any further on that, Councillor Bullivant? I think that's an irrelevant question. We should be recycling as much from the waste as possible, and the national average is around about the 50 per cent we were previously achieving, 56 per cent, and the make-up of waste hasn't significantly changed, and the items for collection haven't significantly changed over that period. Therefore, the ratio is the important thing, not the specific volume. I was thinking really the capacity that we have to handle it, because obviously if you have a greater volume of materials, and it's great that we are processing more and more, but I just wonder if there is a capacity issue as opposed to a performance issue, if you saw what I mean, there's a slight difference. I'm sure the officers will be able to fill it further. I have a couple of figures in front of me over the last couple of years. The recycling rate, but it is unfortunately, it's quite strange the way it's done, I've got the recycling rate as a percentage and the residual weight as a kilogram figure, so the recycling rate has gone from 53.8 per cent to 54.1 per cent in the last 12 months, so it has increased. The residual waste has also increased from 347 kilograms a household to 354 kilograms a household. Now obviously we're getting more houses in the area. I can't answer that question when you've got sort of figures which are sort of in two different formats, but I will endeavour to see how things have gone over the last four years and give you the figures accordingly. Thank you. I think Councillor Sullivan raises some really considered and important questions that we do need to really look at how we are performing and how we measure it. So I think any further information would be helpful and I'm sure there'll be some more questions coming through from the working groups, so thank you. Are there any further questions raised by any of these issues? Councillor Swayne. Thank you for the comments we just heard. That's actually quite an interesting area. I think the other thing that perhaps we'll be interested to get information about is the way that the recycling rates are driven by the market for the recycled materials and those things change very rapidly and can have a big impact on recycling rates, so if there's any changes there that would be helpful for us to know about that would be helpful. And the other thing is that these performance figures we're talking about which go back over the last few years, presumably that takes us in towards the lockdown period when everyone's behaviour was very different in so many ways, so again we need to understand the context of the figures. Any information on that would be helpful. Thank you. Yeah, I'll try and bring some context into them because it's going to be useful for me to know. And you also have to bear in mind that the way we recycle and use waste is actually seasonal as well and it does go up and down, so again I will get as much information as I can for you because quite simply I'd be interested and need to be aware of it myself. Thank you. I think also just going back on to the Tetra Pak, I'm sure from memory we used to recycle the Tetra Pak. They certainly used to be collected and then it stopped, but I think there are collection points for Tetra Paks which I'm not really aware of where they are and I use, well for those that don't have cow's milk, they generally have to buy it in Tetra Paks. There is, I know the one in timber for the Tetra Pak and you can also recycle the sort of the Pringles type carton in it because the Pringles carton is one of the most unrecyclable products there is because you've got cardboard at one end, cardboard in the middle, plastic at one end and tin at the bottom and it is actually completely environmentally unfriendly. So you know if you put one of those in your recycling bin it will be taken out. You can cut it down, put the tin in, put the cardboard in and put the plastic in if you're really clear about it, but again you can put those into these things. There is definitely one at East Cliff Car Park in Timbeth. I'll try and find out where the others are, again interesting to give you all that information. Thank you. Councillor Paul Parker, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Earlier you said that we were in the top 12 percent. Because when I was a Councillor a long time ago we were graded in actual authorities so we were the fifth best, I believe it was about the fifth best authority in the country. Where would that 12 percent take us? Would it be, you know, would that be similar position or lower? Okay, no idea. It would be not interesting how they've graded it, you know, and how they do it now, whether we're like 20th or second perhaps. It's how you read figures and everything in life and when you start playing with percentages you can make them pretty much what you want, but I will endeavour to check on that figure and come back to you. I can remember it was done by percentage, say we were 50 percent and somebody else was 45 percent, we were obviously better than them so they graded all the authorities in a row and we had our place and I think it was fifth, wasn't it? I think also we were one of the earlier districts to do recycling so it may be that there was a smaller number and therefore you can find yourself elevated quite quickly in that situation. The fact is we're still in the top part of the country, we're still performing well as a district and that is what you've got to, you know, we're in the top 12 percent, we're not in the bottom 12 percent and that everybody has to take credit for. Thank you, Councillor Atkins. Good morning. Is there any scope within the projected collection changes to also do some education because within the area where I am down in the bottom of Timmouth it's little lanes, people can't have wheelie bins because there's nowhere to put them on site, they're on the road. I'm in frequent flyer mode with Terry Hayes about how we address this. We have some large bins which are, well today they were full to overflowing, today is collection day and when they're full to overflowing you can see what people are putting in them and there are cans which could be recycled and all sorts of food, food waste in there which is appalling because it stinks after two weeks sitting there which makes me highly suspicious about the three-week collection. I think that would be unachievable where we live and so much of it depends on people's knowledge of what to put where and their ability to store the relevant canisters and a lot of them don't have room to store it but if you could persuade them to separate it you might actually achieve better recycling rates and less landfill waste sitting stinking for however long and I'm not sure whether it came this year but usually with the council tax demand there used to be a leaflet that came out for recycling which tells you what to put where which I have dutifully stuck above my recycling bins in the porch because I can't remember from one weekend to the next where the printer cartridges go and where the foil goes so you know something like that is a handy reminder or some sticker that could be applied to the bins even. I mean I know that will cost a fortune but it would just be a reminder to people that they're putting contraband in the bins because I admire the fact that you say the Pringles canisters will be taken out it's far more likely that the collection will not be removed because we get that a lot as well where somebody's slung something into somebody's green box or black box that is not supposed to be there the bin men just won't touch it and that's really irritating but I was just thinking about a renewed education and reminder of what they're supposed to be doing because I'm the nerd that takes the polythene off the brown bags on the little pastries because part of its plastic part of its brown paper both of them are recyclable in different bits of my porch and if you give people that this is a clear direction you're more likely to get an increase in recycling. I think that is very valid and it's something we can look at again it's one of the things I'm going around the yard next week was it week after and I'm going to be seeing how everything operates and with that that will give me an insight as to where we can actually hopefully look at seeing where we can improve things it's certainly be an education for me we're one of the few councillors who actually segregate our recycling a lot of councils just chuck it in in one and it all gets shipped off because we separate everything what we get is a better purchase price for our recyclables so the more we can do in that respect yes I think it's education of the customer is is a good thing. Thank you just following on from Councillor Atkins on the food waste I understand now you can use any bag to go into your food caddy which I don't actually understand having bought the de-compostable ones whatever it is compostable so what happens to the food waste where does it actually go if now you can put it in plastic bags if you wait for two weeks time when I've seen it go round then I'll probably be able to give you an answer I think it goes off to a processing plant where it is all put into a big vat and it's then used to generate electricity but I can't be a hundred percent sure in that and apparently again from what I've heard and again I've read it on our website or blurb that actually standard carrier plastic bags can be put into the caddy boxes yeah I was quite surprised by that so but the black landfill so-called bin bags the black sacks they presumably don't go to that same place because otherwise you would might as well put them both in together yeah no they go to different places thank you um Councillor McGregor thank you chair and I appreciate I'm not a member of the the committee and it was just to kind of come back to the investment in the recycling centre and just to get an idea of whether or not a separate site will have to be considered bearing in mind that it's quite a tight area it's already running at quite a serious capacity and it was just to kind of get an idea of whether that might require us to look at a different uh I think that's in the hands of people far greater than I at the moment all right thank you Councillor Paul Parker yeah I've just done my own research we've dropped from 5th to 36th in recycling but when we were brilliant which is in 2009 that's a it was 57 percent I'm sorry for it was lived and led so thank you thank you that's um yeah we've dropped 50 36 position bit of improvement today thank you I'm sure um the placeholder will actually have to look at all the figures and come back to us on an awful lot of questions because it's raised quite a lot of discussion which is fantastic um was there another I think somebody's taken their speaker off so are there any further questions please no thank you well thank you very much thank you it's been really interesting as you can see we're really keen on the recycling so we will be holding you to account I'm sure you will thank you very much thank you we move on to point 10 the outside organisation updates um we don't have any representatives for today but we do have a full um diary um being built um quite a lot of responses came through this morning by email um 16th of July we have Councillor Hook um updating us on the teen estuary coastal partnership sorry and Councillor Nessel connecting Devon and Somerset board uh September we will have the Stover canal trust and uh further information from the teen estuary coastal partnership in October Dartmoor national park authority Torbay and South Devon and the NHS foundation trust and the ex estuary management partnership November we have Dartmoor national park authority again December Devon authorities strategic waste committee the team with town centre partnership the teen estuary and coastal partnership and the timmouth town centre partnership so quite a lot of response now coming from the outside bodies which is really good so please also um you have been emailed I believe if you do have any questions you would specifically like answers to if you can notify democratic services in advance they've got a far greater chance of getting the answers to us on the day rather than um delivering it later so that would be um really helpful moving forward um madam chair I have a question oh thank you council relevant I appreciate the list of representatives on outside bodies is an exclusive list of lib dem members however if you look at the list madam you'll find there is one member not a lib member not a lib dem member who is actually a representative on outside body and that's me I'm representing this council on the Stover park and I am very happy to give a report today on issues affecting the Stover park thank you um if you let us know we'd have announced you professionally but thank you um council relevant we'd love to hear about it the works are authorized or paid for by the national lottery that five million pounds is well underway and I'm pleased to say that there is a planned open session for people to go and see the completed works targeted and in the diary for November so I'll certainly issue an invite to all of their members so that they have the opportunity to come and see what an excellent development is taking place down at Stover park thank you and I hope you will extend that to all members of the council council relevant they would get that without asking madam thank you that was brief short and sweet but thank you very much um moving point 2.11 the referral from the audit committee the webcasting of meetings so we'd like to note the minute of the audit committee and consider the agenda report on notices of motion relating to webcasting of meetings this was deferred at the last meeting to enable the proposers of the notice of motion to be present the report and recommendation was presented to the audit committee and is set out from agenda page nine page 15 shows the costings of officer time for additional webcasting so um i believe we have the proposer of the motion here on the webcasting okay so councillor taylor would you like to present your notice of motion yes you're right it was councillor doors um and he's not here so is somebody presenting oh sorry just one second sorry i realized councillor mcgregor's presenting for council miller and you're presenting for your self and we've got nobody presenting for councillor doors that's correct yes okay yeah because we do have officers here also to present information so would you i'd like just like to say on the report um i'm not sure what page it's on 27th february 2024 there was a notice emotion on live streaming public council meeting which was presented by uh councillor jane taylor regarding the live streaming of public council meetings it's on page 11 this was this reports for two notices emotion that were put together because they they covered the same issues so they dealt with under one report okay yeah no that's fine should i do you want me to crack on yeah um yeah the notice emotion was it was to do with the discrepancy around the um meetings that are filmed and the meetings that um aren't live streamed so it was the motion was to discuss um that full council so we could come into an agreement as to those that do need to be live streamed on are very much in the public interest so it's about um live streaming all public meetings i think it was as simple as that in a nutshell don't think it was any more complex than that it was about openness and transparency thank you so sorry just one second so sorry can i just call on the officers please to comment also on the proposal from council adores so it's pages 10 and 11 on our agenda um is there further comment uh chair um i would say that the information regarding live streaming the contract with public eye is all in the report but i would add that there is no legal responsibility to live stream meetings um and this i these notices of motion have gone from executive toward its scrutiny and then come back for over use scrutiny to debate the issue and the way forward thank you are there any questions from members of the committee regarding the webcasting councillor henderson thank you um sorry can i just ask what we're actually debating because i think that i would agree that there is a need for transparency i think there is a need to record the meetings um it depends on what what meetings are going to be recorded i think there is something mentioned in the report about licensing being recorded obviously that would probably go against edpr because there's you know there's people's information that gets discussed but i would like to um find out what um what the proposal is of what meetings are going to be recorded um and it says about putting um meetings on youtube i think that i don't know i i realize that there's a cost to all of this but it says that um there is proposed charges with youtube but there currently isn't so um yeah i just want to sort of know which ones we we're discussing about which ones we're going to record which ones we're not um and how we need to go about it thank you thank you i think from memory we have had discussions regarding this um and it is we have a contract with a provider for hosting it at the moment it's not a legal requirement some authorities do um a voice recording some do none um i think democratic services have provided information on the additional costs if we live stream um further meetings because there's a cost per meeting because of additional staffing requirements predominantly obviously the more that and i agree we do need to be transparent but perhaps we need to refer this to further discussion in one of the task and finish groups such as the medium-term financial plan but i'll take questions with um council of boulevard next thank you then councilor taylor if you'd like to thank you i understand we wish that everything this council does is done in the public gaze however looking at the implications of what's down here if you look at the list of committee meetings which are not currently live streamed all of those minutes are available to the public and members of the public do have the option of attending but the nature of those committees there's a significant number of those committees we'll be discussing things which are normally for within part two requirements therefore the benefit of having an open screen meeting which is constantly in and out of part two question whether it adds value to those those meetings there's a secondary thing of course which is when you look at the bottom of the page where you see that the total potential costs of doing it exceed twenty thousand pounds then is that twenty thousand pounds money worth spending there's not even says yes it is but i think in the practicalities of things making sure that people who have an interest in these topics if they're aware that they can attend meetings encourage so to do i think that's as far as this council should consider we have the four major committees covered by live streaming and i believe that is a good starting point i don't think this stage it's worthwhile considering going further than that and that's what i propose madam chair i propose that as a motion that we accept the current status quo and keep a watching brief on other areas to see if at a future date whether it would be advantageous to have any specific meetings available for public broadcasting thank you councilor bill event so i have a proposer um that we accept the status they accept the current situation and keep a watchful eye do i have seconded by a councilor stevenson so that is just as check councilor boulevard that is for both of the notice of motion regarding webcasting i didn't hear what you said i'm sorry sorry that's you're proposing that we accept the status the current situation regarding both of the west webcasting for the two nominate noms regarding webcasting sorry that's gobbledygook but both and seconded both by steams councilor stevenson thank you yes we'll just um so when the the meetings are recorded and they then are uploaded to something like youtube for a public forum they are because i know that they're going to use the i service um but once they are recorded they are what's needed to youtube for everyone to right okay thank you um the meetings are live streamed as this one is on public eye and then they are they remain on public eye so they are they are available for public to view so is it possible for them to be available being uploaded to youtube as well obviously that is more i've never heard of public eye i usually watch the meetings on youtube and then they disappear so they they remain on public eye for two years and we are in contract with public eye until um middle of 2025 so we're not allowed to upload into that we can upload them to youtube i would say that uploading them to youtube would add additional time for officers at the moment it's basically an instantaneous upload uploading it to youtube i'd have to get the you have to get the file off the desktop onto sharepoint or something like that and then send it to our cons team and then they'd have to to deal with it it would take them longer i would add it's not good use of data to have it kept in two places um i would expect we would have to refer it to full council as well for approval if we were going to change the medium that we were to use for um hosting our webcasts um we do have a list of further queries so i'm first to councilor swain thank you uh thank you chair i haven't kept jane toda not ahead of me or is she something up at the end um is not actually part of scrutiny committee so i'm sure she'll be patient thank you that's fine thank you i think we now understand there's two motions here one about increasing the retention period and the other one about broadcasting all meetings um i think there's some good points i agree about broadcasting of the smaller meetings does change the change the tone it changes what people are able to say and how they're able to say it may not necessarily be helpful um obviously we're all in favor of transparency sadly it does need to be balanced against the cost and appreciate the arguments about the time involved and that affects both of these motions and there's also concerns about the gdpr which affects the retention period the right to be forgotten for instance is an important right um the comments about changing the platform the public eye thing i agree i've never heard of it but if you're interested in the meeting you're on the too much website look at the details of the meeting there's the agenda there's the documents there's a link to the recording so i don't think that's a problem um so uh that's it thank you thank you yes it is and through the agenda it's um directly linked it's on all the teambridge website whichever route you access it it sends you to public eye for whichever meeting um and you can diary it to your phone or whatever device so that you have a reminder um that it's about to uh the committee meeting is about to start um further questions councillor hall please thank you uh so i disagree with the uh most of the motion that's been put forward i think having a recording of not maybe not all of the committees but some of them would be very useful i mean only at the last i think it was the second to last full council meeting when we had the report about the finances there was a lot of discussion about stuff that had taken place at audit scrutiny i like a lot of councillors work i can't go to every meeting and to be to have been able to watch that bag would have been really helpful to save all the old eye rolling that we had from uh other councillors when people were asking questions i think i would i would propose that we set up a task and finish group with the two um people that brought forward the notice of motion as well as other councillors for them to come up with a proposal that works um that actually works and is a solid proposal and um be brought back to other full council this whichever um committee it needs to go to thank you councillor hall um we can't set up a further task and finish group but we could look at alternative methods of scrutiny um if that's what the committee would like councillor parker poor parker yeah sorry if we can't separate group another group a lot of it is like perpetuity like councillor swain said and i'm sorry i forgot mr henderson yeah so even uploading it to facebook and youtube it can't be a considerable cost and um that's there forever really and i i most of my information i get from youtube so i'm not aware of this public eye but the youtube everybody's aware of that and it would be there forever thank you councillor parker i think as um councillor swain mentioned there is the right to be forgotten um of councillors so um for for us to place it on youtube that that would have to be looked into as well it's the gdpr um so i think if we were going to consider it it would have to go to um further research discussion and to full council but thank you um going are there any further questions from committee members um just councillor stevenson thank you not not necessary question but just my observations similar to council bullen i guess first one is we have no legal requirement to film them and i think that's quite important we need to keep that into perspective i think the balance at the moment is about right from what i can see um in theory there will be less meetings because there's only one audit and scrutiny group right now or overview and scrutiny so there might be some less meetings i can see how it kicked in obviously during the covid time it was very important to to have cameras and people could see it at home the numbers the numbers now looking at it are not that high when you put it in in a percentage figure across the whole of the teenbridge area there are systems as you already mentioned to have just reporting your voice only for the clarity of the minutes rather than cameras etc and obviously there is the cost element so that was why i was going along with what supporting what canceled relevant proposed thank you yeah there is also i think we have sort of um intimated it but the cost benefit analysis to the public um that has to be weighed up um if everyone's happy i'd just like to invite the two that are not on the committee um councillor taylor followed by councillor mcgregor and we do have that proposal still on the table so we will come back to take a vote on that thank you thank you chair um part of that proposal initially was about the lack of rationale for what we do in terms of that transparency not just the transparency of um live uh zooming these meetings so as far as i can see there isn't this isn't part of our communication strategy about how we do this there's no rationale behind it in terms of the meetings that we zoom in the meetings that we don't live stream so part of that was about i think people mentioned getting the balance right well those conversations have never been had so we actually don't know if we're getting the balance right and that was why the motion came to have those discussions so that we're very clear about the meetings we do live stream and why we do that and we're very clear about the meetings that we don't live stream and why we do that and that the council signed that off and are in agreement to it so so that's part of the transparency not just for watching the the the um live zoom so that was was the issue for me and although you've had part of that debate there's still a lot of that debate missing in to provide that clear rationale and that clear transparency about that process thank you thank you councillor taylor um i think you raised some very valid points and we could explain why we actually stream some and not others um for those of us that aren't aware why they were set up um originally um and councillor mcgregor thank you chair um it was just really to kind of follow up on a a couple of the points i think the the main area is consistency so if we have a consistent approach to standards for instance we've recorded standards meetings for you know a period of time and then all of a sudden we don't have a recording of a standards meeting so it it lacks consistency and it does it does beg the question for residents why are we not doing that consistency across the board in terms of the staffing all of these meetings staff are present we've got one two three four from democratic services here right now so this meeting theoretically has enough staff to to be able to record the meeting and i think it comes down to you know when when councillor hook gordon hook uh became leader in 2019 he was going to have a open and transparent council for the residents of this district and it's not about it's not about trying to catch people out it's not about trying to force recordings um and that i supported at the time i was a member of his group and i supported that that move and we've got we've got a leader currently um who is suggesting that we're a community-led council but if we're hiding stuff from the community then that begs the question of whether or not we're actually fully committed to being a community-led council um so from the perspective of you know just a standard of consistency i think is the main point here so if we're going to do overview and scrutiny recording it's all meetings that recorded if it's audit scrutiny it's all meetings that recorded if it's licensing we don't record that because personal details are involved if there's part two then part twos need to be organized in a consistent manner so that we're not jumping backwards and forwards and again it comes back to consistency what message are we sending to to our residents about what we want them to see and what we want them to know and i think that's really quite important and on the question of the right to erasure that only applies if data is no longer required and that can't be said of public meetings and meetings in public thank you thank you um i think if everybody's happy i know there are people now with more questions um if you feel that you there is something that has not already been said um then i'm happy to take your questions yes okay um councillor parker you have just had a quick look at youtube and there's hundreds of districts we're not hundreds several district councils have got all the information on there it goes back for years so councillor swain's prop you know you're worried about the future leaving it there and the right to be lost in all these other district councils they're all on there so that's the way forward isn't it chairman chair chair thank you councillor parker um councillor swain thanks chair um just question councillor taylor's saying that it's not part of a strategy and there's no rationale um i'm not sure that's necessarily true but can i ask are are we consistent do we have some meetings some committees are recorded some aren't is there a clear policy there um whilst i still support council bullet's motion can i suggest that perhaps it would be worth just circulating the list of which meetings are and aren't recorded and if anyone has specific concerns about things they think should be um i think it would be very reasonable to have that discussion in an informal manner at least first thank you thank you um i will come to the officer but i'm from as far as i'm aware there is consistency regarding all of the meetings for any specific committee our um webcast but i will go to the officer sorry jared's just been pointed out it is actually in the report so i apologize for that so there is a clear list of which meetings are recorded we do have consistency thank you thank you sorry officer did you no no further comment yeah i mean as we know planning every meeting is webcast scrutiny every meeting is webcast um for that full council meeting every meeting is webcast and the executive every meeting is webcast so there are there are no meetings there are not some are sub webcasts some are not webcast there is consistency throughout i think what councillor taylor was um asking was that we make clear why we why we webcast some and not others and yeah so i'm going to leave it there i think we've thoroughly discussed that councillor henderson last word is it that we need to promote where the um videos are webcast and played more to the public rather than them not knowing you know so like i said i didn't know about the i platform does it need a bit more publicity so that the public know where to be um that's a good point i'd never heard of it until i joined the council um but going through team bridge district council website it all directs you to public eye um so anyone interested in council business will use the team bridge website and it will direct them and if they're interested in any of the particular committee meetings again there's an automatic hyperlink to the webcast um we do have a contract so it will continue as as arranged we we're not likely to change that until it concludes um if we wanted to increase the number that we were webcasting there would be associated costs that's been laid out in the agenda i know the officer has done quite a lot of research on that um is there further information you'd like to add no thank you so going back to uh councilable event has proposed that we continue well would you like to repeat what you suggested please council relevant that was seconded by steam listening to what the debate is i propose that we maintain status quo on the existing arrangements however when the new contract comes up for renewal we reconsider our position about the length of time we reserve or reserve meet or record meetings at that particular time i think that is 18 months away from what you've said so status quo for 18 months and then review in 18 months um officers comment i'd just like to say that when the contract about a year before the contract's up for renewal um we will be looking at all the ways best ways forward for webcasting and um you know and the costs involved as well so and that you know technology changes so quickly so there could be other technologies we might want to use or other platforms thank you so um we have had the two webcasting um notice of motions or yes um combined proposed by councilable event seconded by counselors deamson may we have a show of hands please to approve um those two thank you eight and against we have one and abstentions one thank you that's carried thank you so we now move to um point 12 the notices of motion referred from the former os2 committee to consider the agenda reports referred from the former committee deferred at the last meeting to enable the proposes of the notices of motion to be present um we do have um counselor mcgregor presenting i believe for counselor malone and the link to the former os2 agenda of the 9th of april for background information relates to the notice of motion and is set out on the agenda um the three items relate to planning we have loss and loss of section 106 contributions on the agenda pages 17 to 21 as set out the committee is asked to consider the report and debate the issues in relation to the notice of motion and make recommendations to full council based on our conclusions i'd like to um ask the head of place and commercial services officer ian perry please i think you just promoted me there um i'm standing in my name's so no no no my name's my name's ian perry i'm one of the area team managers within development management so i'm here today covering for sim manly who's unfortunately sick um what would you like would you like me to say anything at this point in time because i think the reports are quite uh conclusive and exhaustive but i'm happy to take questions if that's what you'd like to do thank you i think that's a better route having confused who's who today um so on the first loss of section 106 um do members of the committee have any questions please yeah councillor parker thank you colin yes thank you very much um i won't go into too much detail but um the points i made were really just for consideration um one obvious point is with with this uh there's going to be a greater volume in fact a very large amount of business would come to committee and um if these suggestions are implemented um i'm just stating facts here this could affect our overall performance um and like it or not we have to build homes our target is there councillors specifically have the right to call in variations as it stands now i don't think many are called in but they have the right to do so um i'd like to believe that we should trust and believe that our officers have the knowledge and expertise to present each application and consider each variation and recommend the correct way forward yes sometimes things do turn out slightly different but i would like to think our officers are vigilant in these regards perhaps sometimes there is a blurring of the line between material and non-material things and viability come into it as well viability is always one of my pet hates but that's not something that's got to be considered on an application so unless there's really exceptional proven reason um there's a comment about achieving developers achieving a healthy profit well yes perhaps so but it could be argued that they need a profit to gain for future development um i don't really want to know go on too much more just to say that a general comment i would like to believe that the the committee is and always has been quasi-judicial and we consider and look at all the evidence before making any decision so i have real no issues with the things as they stand at the moment so i don't really think there should be any change thank you councillor bullock you had your light on yeah i was listening to the debate to be honest thank you do we have any further questions before i ask councillor taylor councillor taylor would you like to sorry i thought i was supposed to present the motion my misunderstanding wasn't um before other people out of you but never mind um so i've obviously uh read the report in relation to this if i can just come back at a point that was raised and about the planning committee as soon as it was raised um i think personally the planning committee at the moment we don't make the best use of time i've been to agendas actually where we've had we've had two things on the agenda um so i don't necessarily agree with the issue about the planning committee that's what we're there for and so it should be from agenda so in relation to um this going through there um there's a couple of issues that some of them have been raised in terms of the 106 um unless i'm told that's not the case my understanding is that 106 is a contractual um arrangement is that correct contractual arrangement it's it's it's a legal agreement between the council and other parties yes thank you so one of the issues of 106 for me is that 106 is a legal contractual agreement and so unless there is a breach from one side or the other it is my understanding unless it's a breach from one side of the other then there shouldn't be an issue it's about a breach of contract so and i think we've got a knob there at the front um so in terms of the 106 and those agreements we have they're a contractual arrangement and as long as the council teambridge district council are not doing anything to breach that agreement then they should be on safe ground they should be confident and safe they that what they've done is right and there is no breach so when the developers come for a change in the 106 this change only happens by agreement agreement with teambridge and agreement then it's not that they are holding our feet over the flames because actually teambridge unless there's an admission from teambridge that they've done something wrong we're talking about a breach of contract so i think what we need to be doing is be very confident in our planners that when they sign those agreements that actually they did the right thing they signed those agreements and we should have confidence that we don't need to now go into those negotiations they might be timed when we want to for the benefit of our community for the benefit of building those houses of course there might be times but i get the impression when i come to a meeting that actually we're doing we don't have much choice about this we do have choice about it but we choose to work with the developers so part of this motion was to say to you we need to be as a council as a planning committee we need to be confident that we don't have to actually change that contract if we don't want to and unless planning tell us we've breached it we are in the strong position so that is very much part of what the 106 motion came forward for is that we should stand strong and we should be involved in some of those decisions one of the issues that are questions asked was about viability and i think that i must have worded it because i think it's a misunderstanding i wasn't saying that a viability assessment should be done at the beginning i wish i was saying that we and the planners and the developers when they bring a development before us it's a given they are telling us that what they're proposing is viable they are telling us that and i think that we should be making more in terms of our position around that we should be clearer with them when they come forward you're telling us that this development these plans are viable and so we shouldn't be expecting six months down the line that it's no longer viable and i understand there's all kind of economic issues might i know they and outside of that big there could be some exceptional cases but not on most cases on most developments it shouldn't be the case um also i asked that we discuss the issue of coming back with um material changes minor amendments because again in terms of planning um and i've seen it in the past you know it might not go to the same officer and not every officer you can't keep up with every small change that goes into a housing development it's very difficult to see the end result from one small change and then another small change so what i was asking with developments of 20 hours or more we could go less than that and i keep my eye all the time for um amendment applications um but quite often i put them out to other areas to let councillors know when they don't call them in um and i find that quite frustrating um is that if there's something going to change that development so they're going to remove garages they're going to remove and change the parking areas they're going to replace the grey roofs with straw or whatever they intend to do i think that the people the planning committee who approved that development which looked perfect for their residents for their area if it's going to be changed visibly then it should come back to the people the planning committee who approved that application in the first instance to be fair i honestly didn't think that i would be met with such resistance when i put in this motion because for me it was just absolute common sense that when you approve something the end result should be what you've approved and all i'm asking is that we have more cognizance of what's going on and that we have um a more decision-making capability to authorize those changes it might be that we want to that actually it looks much nicer and by removing garages the houses are going to be cheaper there's lots of things that might be of benefit i just feel that we need to be more involved and that's all i was asking in terms of this motion i didn't think it was that controversial but obviously it is thank you thank you um i think we my apologies if i confused when i said um you would be presenting the notice of motion obviously you did that back in october to full council and so it really was i think important that you do get to say what you intended to the scrutiny committee um there have been in the um papers on the agenda quite a few comments um regarding um a lack of evidence for some of the issues mentioned and um the vocabulary used in the presentation of some of it so um i think we do also have to accept that officers do have delegated authority once the planning is approved and that they should be allowed to perform their roles because they've obviously got a far greater knowledge base than we do um as members councilable event thank you um i have some sympathy for the points raised by cancer taylor as you know i operate within the the sector that makes these or builds these houses but not within teenbridge so i have some understanding of the basic issues that developers and people wanting homes put up uh face at the start of the process when the decisions is being made about s106 calculations a discussion normally takes place between the council and the advisors working on a project to establish a baseline from which a calculation is derived that indicates the level of s106 or and the basis on on which an s106 calculation is done that inevitably is based on the assumptions that are available when you're talking about a site during the development phase things can and sometimes do happen you don't know what the sub-source may not know what the sub-source are like it may not know issues that are going to affect it that have to be challenged and what we have in that process are specialist advisors that look at any requests made by developers to comment on the validity or otherwise of any applications for variation that come forward that discussion takes place quite frequently and regularly between our professional officers and those independent specialist advisors acting either on behalf of the council or on behalf of developers we are in a situation i think where we employ some excellent officers fully qualified who are capable of assessing the impact of any of these decisions and classifying them as major minor or insignificant we have to rely on their professional judgments and up to now i've never seen a case come forward where an officer's judgment in these scenarios when challenged in any process has been shown to be less than adequate there are misconceptions from people who don't have that training about profit margins and different things things that are thrown in to the calculation so we have to be careful to make sure that we distinction but we we maintain this distinction between professional advice from officers who are qualified to make those decisions and the point at which it's necessary for those decisions or the answers to a question to be put back before this committee and to do that i think we have to rely wholeheartedly on our professional advisors our officers to make those decisions the danger of accepting this as a motion i believe blurs that distinction it blurs it to the point at which we're questioning the professional capability of our officers to a degree that i suggest is wrong i have sympathy which one of them my questions really come from the fact that i don't believe our officers are doing a bad job i think they're doing a bloody good job and we should support them in doing that and for that reason i can't suggest that we support this as a motion thank you thank you councillor paul parker yeah thank you i've been a developer and i've negotiated so i do know a little bit what phil is talking about but i can't present it very well but what i do now is when it's the other way around when you've paid lower prices for the land owners at the moment interests are it's really high building materials and labor is really high so all the negotiations at present will be for be lower the developers commitments but say in two or three years time that changes and we're and the um and the plans have been approved we won't get any developers coming back saying actually our profit mileage shot up on the original discussions with officers we now want to give more affordable and more things it won't happen so sometimes you've got to have a balanced view but i do i do understand the counts of the officers do a good job but if counselors could be on that process and understand it better it would be an advantage that's why i do support this motion because we never hear the other way when things are very profitable and the community doesn't benefit from it thank you councillor parker um councillor swain uh thank you chair um i'll try and be brief because there's a danger that it's already been said i also very much agree with the sentiment here i think it's very frustrating when applications come in and you think you're going to get something or possibly you grudgingly the community grudgingly agrees to something on the basis that they're getting something else in return and then subsequently it's quietly dropped things change in the background there are examples where the community has been i think in my view badly treated in that way not by any individuals certainly not by our officers but by the process um the national planning policy is in my view quite heavily stacked in favor of the developers um and that also is a concern um but i'm very concerned about the language in this proposal um i think there are a number of specific things teambridge choosing to work with developers well teambridge is obliged to work with developers it's required to by law that's national planning policy i think it's unhelpful to have language like that in a notice of motion and it's a big reason why i would not support the notice of motion simply the language in it is inappropriate and unprofessional um but i do agree with the sentiment but i don't think this is the right solution either we're talking about all changes of conditions should be referred to planning committee i don't think that's proportionate or helpful but i do think what is helpful is the calling process which we have and it works very well under the previous administration this was extended to parish councils and that's been used very effectively i think district councillors should be keeping an eye on planning applications in their area including changes of conditions and should be ready to raise concerns from the community should be should be keeping an eye on that i think that's part of all of our jobs um and i think that does work the last point to raise is about planning performance if we start calling these in and it impacts on planning performance we've had massive problems in this council with planning performance falling behind we've had a backlog that we simply could not clear we've had new applications coming in faster than we can process them the situation was dire and that's fixed now and i'm really pleased to say that and thank the officers for the effort that's gone into resolving that situation and i think it would be foolish to um do something in a sweeping way which might endanger uh the performance of the planning process once again thank you thank you councillor swain um councillor hall thank you variations to uh planning applications should be a matter of transparency so calling them in is obviously a positive for residents is it my understanding that there's going to be a task and finish group about planning or have i would it i would propose that we defer this to the test and finish uh planning working group for them to come up with a solution that works thank you councillor hall um yes there is on the scrutiny agenda or the um forward agenda um a planning task and finish proposal but we can only run so many working groups and currently the next one to commence is assets assets will be a considerable piece of time commitment so i don't know when the planning um task and finish group is likely to commence but that is one option um i think we've heard um also about the impact on the planning department um because as councillor swain mentioned we did have a presentation recently which meant that we are doing extremely well really now in planning having taken the measures over the last six months um and changes to systems we can't really expect the officers to allow us to interfere in what they're currently proceeding with to improve on the historic um lengthy um i think three-year back backlog some of those applications which they're now working through and clearing um and we certainly don't want them to go backwards but yes it is an area that we need to consider within a planning task and finish um because obviously there is sympathy about this um one of the other um elements was if we were to bring back i think councillor colin parker mentioned if every single variation was brought back to planning we would grind to a halt in all of our committees um no call it councillor park said but it's stated i believe um councillor swain was reading from the notice visible changes um any material amendment and we should go to the officer earlier but um material amendments are considered but i think it is down to the delegated authority but if i can go to the officer thank you yeah just to clarify in terms of what can happen once a decision's been made there's various changes that developers might need to make choose to make the market dictates perhaps that styles changed and the demand has changed for a particular type of window or something so there's various ways that things can be altered further down the line you've got non-material amendments they don't come through committee but their term non-material is that very minor stuff that to the untrained eye you're playing spot the difference with two plants ago where is the change if you're having to look at it if you're not having to look at it and say well there it is that's really obvious that's that's material so something that's material is then put in through an application to vary the approved plan condition and that's those that councillor parker mentioned the the variations they have the var suffix on the applications you're within your rights to call those into planning committee now it's not on the list of exclusions so where there are those changes for example the removal of garages on every plot within the development that's going to be a material change so we're going to see that through an application of that nature it's within your gift now under the constitution to call that application in if you wish to if you wish to do so obviously it's like any other call then you'd need the planning reasons as to why and so on and so forth but you can do it the alterations to legal agreements are slightly different in that in the first five years there is no application process following the signing of that 106 agreement so you can't apply to vary it in the same way as varying a condition it is through as we've heard agreement between the authority and that developer so if they came to us within two years and saying look we can't provide any affordable housing now and they'd originally agreed 20 we have to we have an option to simply decline it and just say we're not even going to talk to you that's kind of completely contrary to the proactive working requirements of the MPPF to turn you back on a developer and say we're not even talking so what you have to do then is you have to then consider what where do we go from here what are we expecting from this if we don't even talk to them a that's not acceptable really but if you didn't they might grind to a halt which is then affecting our housing deliveries both affordable and non-affordable so that process is there but what we do have to do is we have to go through a viability appraisal and we've heard a lot about viability no one within my office is an expert on viability it's one of those matters of technical appraisal that expert is required to be involved in it which is why it's on that list of excluded matters for calling in we go out to tender we get three different individuals give us a quote to do the work and to assess the applicant's assessment and there's debate that goes on what i would say is in february's members newsletter you had a breakdown of uh variations to 106 over the last five years there's only been one example where affordable housing has changed post decision and that was to do with heel park and a very exceptional circumstance involving a gas main and uh the need to spend millions on actually strengthening that to prevent problems with the health and safety executive and obviously human life potentially we've had no other examples of that happening after five years you know they're within their gift to put a formal application in that is something that then can be appealed if we choose not to do it but it's so far down the line that most of the time the developments already happened with those large applications that the na1s the na3s the da2s those thousands of homes if they're not providing the required amount of affordable housing on day one that policy requirement there's very often and nine times out of ten there's a reassessment requirement within the 106 agreement so after x number of years or a certain number of plots have been delivered they go through the viability appraisal again to try and pick up on what councilor paul parker said that about times and times are good we're making more money yeah you weren't back then there was issues you were providing less everything's rosy now we reassess it and if that shows that they can provide more we start to recoup some of that lost affordable housing further down the line so the process is there and i think what i just want to say is we don't get a lot of these types of application come through the door and like you say members newsletter back in february set out the position then it's not changed since then we do get quite a few applications that change house types you know but again the market often drives that if you've got your red rose they go for their heritage range which kind of is very 1950s in appearance but if the market suddenly said we don't want those anymore we want houses like what taylor wimpy build they're going to change their designs they're going to look to do that because they're not going to sell houses otherwise for what they need and they are a business they need to make a profit so you know we need to we need to work with them so what i'm saying is the process as it stands i think does what you want it to do with the exception of that point around viability the technical appraisal which no one in this room is an expert on that can't happen because it's it would slow everything down we'd be making decisions that are probably challengeable because we don't know we need that expert for you and those are for applications you've already got the right to call them in and it's down to you as individual ward members to make that call so my opinion is that there's no need to change how it's working because it already does what you need it to do and has gone as far as we can take it in terms of i think what's reasonable and what would be not open to challenge if decisions were made differently thank you thank you just picking up on what has been discussed already i know obviously if we've got a major development going on my own approach is that i work with the planning officer the senior planning officer that is responsible and ask them to keep me updated of any changes and that can be by zoom or it can be in person and i've found that to be invaluable and that's not slowing the process down yes they are having to make time to go through it with me but it's really important then that i can have a discussion with them and understand that any reasons for changes um i would point out that other developers are also available in the um comments um of our mr perry but um i think we do have to accept really that we're not the authorities on this um and that we do heavily rely on the officers to be allowed to do their job and councillor colin parker thank you chair i just wanted to reinforce one point if an application for a material amendment comes forward and we get a var that it is in a material amendment then i stress every member to actually if they think it's you know something they're concerned about to actually call it in and if it's justifiable then that will come to committee that is as it is now and as it should be so i don't see that that changing anything will affect that situation but i do stress please call them in if you consider that to be a case thank you councilor steamson yeah i think the uh the system at present is is it's good for purpose i think the excellent the the answers we've just had from the officer were excellent and somebody mentioned about counselor training perhaps there ought to be more facilities for if if there isn't already for the wider breach of counselors to learn more about the planning system through some training i think that's it is it is available but i'm sure we could focus in on that so we will have a better understanding about some of the things we've discussed today and i also think the answers to the questions in front of us basically you know are quite conclusive in some respects and therefore i think the well i propose that the system isn't uh isn't broken there is this chance particularly if you call it in uh except to which i have experience of to as a as a counselor to make your points known and taken under control thank you councilor steamson um counselor mcgregor you thank you so would you like to just i'm just i just want to speak um because counselor mcgregor has been asking to speak but you haven't asked to speak for this particular motion therefore um it's really i think there's a great deal of sympathy for the s-106 that's been mentioned by numerous counselors so i think it is worthy of further debate but it's just the forum in which we do that counselor swain as you are on the committee what would you like to thank you just one further tiny point um this is something that council bullivant has raised a number of times in the past there is a a procedure in this council that sites of over 50 houses should have quarterly inspections including the ward council for a long time this wasn't happening and it's something that in the past we've tried to kick start and get going again um but actually that will also contribute to this that if ward counselors are doing those visits they'll be more aware of what's going on on these sites and i think that would help in the situation thank you council mcgregor would you be brief with what yes thank you certainly be brief one one of the aspects of the motion has already raised awareness amongst counselors so it's partly achieved that process the other aspect i was going to mention is i'm a little bit disturbed by the constant themically sword approach to uh bringing these matters so we've had one two three people in this room say that oh it will slow down the process it will slow down the process and i remember a question came to council uh in 2020 asking the very same point about variations and we were told by the portfolio holder is still the same portfolio holder that there'll be thousands of variations coming to planning committee and it will slow everything down and that actually hasn't happened and the evidence is actually available in the agendas that come to planning and we don't see variations appearing very often on the body i think there's been one in the last five planning committees that's come noted for uh view so i i find it a little bit disingenuous that this process is being you know any attempt to to just have more transparency is viewed as being obstructive it's viewed as being holding up the process and it's viewed as being counter to good process for for getting the work done and we're not questioning uh officers views we're just making sure that what we're approving and what's being built are consistent for this council because residents out there are seeing planning applications coming through with loads and loads of conditions and conditions and variations are put through all the time and these are the real issues for residents out there and it's about transparency again and thank you to council for making that point earlier thank you um as i said i think it is um our duty as members to be asking the officers to work with us and update us on those variations um which is certainly my approach and i know other people will be doing that would anybody else have any further comment i think we have debated it quite thoroughly council sway thank you um i would like to just respond to council mcgregor uh actually the language in this motion is critical of the officers um to say this is not criticism is not the case thank you okay thank you do we have a um proposer please um for the loss of section 106 which was detailed agenda pages 17 to 21 and based on the debate that we have held but hasn't the council seems sorry council seems to well i don't know whether i came up with a proposal as such i was given my comments but i well i'm proposing that the system at the moment is robust uh as an individual counselor i'm got the um the resolve i'm allowed to call things in if they're difficult so i'm i would be getting feedback from the community who might be concerned about things happening i've got one happening in in my patch now um so therefore i'm fairly clear in my mind so far on what's happening i can ask those questions and i also suggested that if needs be we could have some more counts of training for those who were feeling not so uh had a fuller understanding whether that's a motion i'm not too sure a proposal i'm not too sure so we're saying basically a status quo but a request for further training oh yeah my my feeling is is that it's fairly robust at this moment in time as an individual ward officer you have that you're able to facilitate and find out what's happening i thought the officer gave a good report and there should be perhaps more training for those that feel they need it and do we have a seconder for that proposal um councilor nuttall madam chair please may i just ask a question i i did propose that it be deferred to a working the when that's set up so is that not sorry your proposal wasn't seconded at the time councilor hall but i think you have a valid suggestion and i think that can be taken forward by the planning task and finish group when that is set up i think it should be acknowledged and considered within that um but i don't think we need to propose that realistically as a separate issue if you're agreeable with that thank you um so we have it proposed and seconded can we have a show of hands please um for those that are in agreement with it being left as is with the option to have additional training if required um and that's those four nine and those against none against and abstentions three that's carried thank you okay moving to the next notice of motion which is green improvements in conservation area this can be found on your agenda page 23 to 29. that's fully laid out do we have um council mcgregor i believe um this was presented previously so if you would like to present it on councilor milone's behalf thank you i'll keep it brief um conservation areas there are 35 as noted noted in the report itself across the district conservation areas tend to be large areas within small communities and this has a an impact for those people those residents living in those areas um i note that most of the report based is based around planning process and mostly around the impact on heritage assets but in a lot of cases we are actually putting residents in a situation where it's less cost efficient to run their home it's less cost efficient to get repairs done and actually what we find is that the buildings in conservation areas because of that are actually falling into disrepair or we get situations where um a planning application comes in for a small adjustment to a flat roof in a conservation area and it's refused and despite the fact that there's no overlooking you can't see it from the road you can't see it from any other building around it's still refused because it's a conservation area and that would be providing light to somebody's battery so that they wouldn't have to have a light on in their bathroom and and incur the extra cost there so what what we're what we're proposing here is to look at the opportunity for residents to be able to change windows improve the cost of the energy efficiency of their home which is a green initiative that we are promoting across all of our modern developments looking at solar panels and i had one in my own ward which was refused despite the fact that the actual house that it was being requested for was built after the conservation area was put in place so it seemed counter-intuitive that um you know we're refusing solar panels on houses that are modern houses in conservation areas so from the perspective of um of this what what we were looking for is an opportunity to look at the way that we address applications in conservation areas to enable people to be able to improve their homes improve the energy efficiency improve the green output through the use of alternative sources of materials now windows and and doors now can can be produced that look just as good as the original windows and doors and they're made in much more appropriate energy efficient materials and at a much more cost efficient price for the resident particularly in the conservation areas so it was really about helping people cost of living is increasing cost of materials are increasing and to replace light for light windows is often completely impractical for a lot of residents so it's to look at that process and to see what we can do to improve that and that was the basis of the motion thank you thank you uh councillor mcgregor i'll go to councillor bullivant and then councillor colin parker thank you my concern here is in support of the the premise that technology is evolving and uh things that we can do today weren't been able to done than 25 years ago when we look at our conservation parameters we have in our council officers whose job it is to give an opinion on these issues unlike most things these depend on an opinion of an officer whether it's acceptable or not that in my mind is creating a situation where there's a great deal of uncertainty of what is possible or what is not possible i believe there are things like modern materials for use windows which would be completely acceptable if there was no outwardly design appearance change equally i think the technology is changing such that over the 75 years to which a wooden window frame is referred to in this report technology will change and improvements be possible so we should have a framework which would allow these sorts of things to take place there are other issues for instance the um recent rejection of an application to replace a green hockey pitch grass hockey pitch with an all-weather hockey pitch because it was in a setting of a grade two building there are areas in my ward where the garages were put up before they were set into a conservation area but the people with next door who want to build a garage can no longer do it because the officer says he's out of keeping with the other falling down garages that are there the thing that's missing is the input into that decision-making process of opinions from councillors as to what defines acceptable or not acceptable and i think that is the problem that we have i think we should be i would recommend that we are setting we set up when time allows a body to look at these things to be able to define what would we think is acceptable that we can give as an indication to the officers making these decisions what we as a council think are appropriate and what is inappropriate that would allow us to say yes if a window is a particular design we recommend it would be approved or it shouldn't be approved it doesn't meet these conditions there are various other things there right relative to conservation areas i think we need to have a discussion amongst councillors as to what it is that we are seeking to achieve and how we can best do that and i think the way to go forward with that is to set up a task for task and finish group to establish what those should be so we can inform the officers of what our opinions are likely to be or are so that's the recommendation i would make madam chair thank you and to councillor colin parker i noted you seconded that councilor thank you thank you chair um a number of times during the report there is admission that perhaps uh conservation area area character appraisal and plans should be updated that says that i know we won't go into cost implications but that is something if that is acknowledged then perhaps something that we should look at quite seriously and i'm just wondering what ian whether you've got any comments on that because it seems to me that that is a a given really if you don't mind i'll come back on that i'd just like to just go over the points that councillor boulevard made as well and just kind of set out where we stand just reiterate some points within the report but i'll just start with you councillor parker there and that is yeah we do have conservation area character appraisals they form form part of that policy background when it comes to decision making um they are out of date um we do need to work through them yes there's cost implications there's time implications we have a set priority of which ones we consider most likely to be at future risk so they are the ones where there's perhaps future developments that are coming through through the local plans and so on and so forth where we think that's where we need to put our resources we are looking at hoping to get the first ones underway and done within the next six to twelve months um so that's the intent so we can start that up because the more up to date is the better it is for us for decision making now it comes to decisions within conservation areas or in relation to listed buildings you have to go through various tests and those tests relate to harm so when you're making a decision that impacts on a list of building or conservation area you can end up with three scenarios you end up with a development that causes no harm in which case that's great approve it you end up with less than substantial harm which is saying look it's impacting it's slightly harmful and if that happens you've got to look for a public benefit so for the example your hockey pitches i don't know the ins and outs of that case but let's just say that you know it was considered that that was less than substantial harm that it was causing but it was harmful but the clear public benefit was accessibility to better sports provision well-being and so on and so forth that could override the harm you then have substantial harm and that is almost like running a bulldozer through westminster in terms of loss of a listed building it's like it's so significant absolutely not you can't justify it it's a straight refusal now a lot of the stuff we're dealing with is quite small scale it's replacement windows it's solar panels that kind of stuff and that's the stuff that seems to be quite controversial because you think well your average member of the public looks at a window and says well it's just it looks the same as the other one they don't they do look different and if you take some of the examples where there's been changes they're very obvious that there are changes there and they will be harmful alterations but they fall within that less substantial harm category which means where's the public benefit and it's so slight you could argue well there's there's some improvement in terms of carbon reduction and that and that helps everybody on the planet but it's so minor that it wouldn't tip that balance now you've got people saying well that's not fair because my neighbors my neighbors got plastic windows they did them 20 years ago why can't i have plastic windows the general permitted development order has actually changed since then so the 1995 one allowed you to just change windows for whatever you like there was no no requirement to do anything you could just pull out your timber window stick in plastic ones even in a conservation area it was absolutely fine you couldn't do that with flats and you never have been able to those rights don't exist for flats you then fast forward to 2015 the regulations changed and they input the inserted a nice little little line there that says material should be um rather um similar to the existing which meant if you'd had plastic windows before and you wanted to just change a few more or add a few more you could because you'd done it before and you already had them if you were unfortunate enough to still have your timber ones you were caught out by that piece in the regs so that meant in a conservation area if you're introducing plastic on a building and you've not already got it it needs planning permission but then you have the rights to call it into committee so you still have that power as we've discussed at the last notice of motion that if you don't like something and you think it's it has benefit and it should be accepted you can call that into planning committee there's also more that the government allows you to do in terms of carbon reduction policy anyway so if you're looking at solar panels air source heat pumps ground source heat pumps various fancy electrical systems the regulations for that don't fall in the same part of the regs they've got their own separate section under part 14 which allows dwelling houses and flats to do works so you can put solar panels on flats in a conservation area but it does restrict where you can put them so if you're putting them on the front of the house facing a highway you still need an application but there are things you can do without permission so it requires a little bit more thought and sometimes technically it just won't work because the sun doesn't come the direction you want it to come in terms of your roof that's where you need the applications but that's where you have the power to call it into committee again and you can make that judgment as to whether or not you feel there's harm no harm or what level of harm you attribute to something i hope that's helpful thank you um i go now to councilor steams and followed by councilor rogers yeah well actually a lot of points i was going to make just been picked up actually the goal posts are regularly changing in planning and in the report it does says they need to be updated as well so there's a clear thing obviously planning at teambridge planning is going for a huge change at the minute this has already been alluded to and and i'm sure this is from most of us here would be a very important thing to really focus on because the rules are slightly different except the green issues agenda is slowly whatever whoever gets in after july the 4th there will be another again a whole load of change and green issues are fairly top of most of people's agendas so i support the proposal that was made over here to my right that we look at it in a task of finish group on this one thank you councilor rogers um i look forward to dartwood national park coming to present to us because that is the most common asked question i get in my ward the ash britain buckfastly sit within the national park and the national park feel they're doing their stuff teambridge feel they're doing their stuff but the resident in the middle of bureaucracy doesn't feel again supported because again different answers from what if they lived in teambridge if they lived in the national park i think we've got to try and get clarity between both for those residents who sit within national park land authority thank you councilor rogers yes i think there is a bit of an issue between dartmore national park and um yeah teambridge so and as i think nearly half of our area is within dartmore national park it's um considerable um we do have one of our members who sits on both um our audit committee as chair and also on dartmore national park so perhaps they will be able to update us a little bit in the future they are booked in to come to speak i think in july and is the member who sits on both committees come in front of our committee they are coming in july um as an outside body representative on dartmore national park yes and if i can bring in the officer please yeah it's just a very quick point but to say that the big difference between dartmore national park planning authority and teambridge planning authority is because it's a national park the legislation they work under is very different it's far more restrictive so most of the national well all of the national park has the same permitted development rights as the people within our conservation areas so you know they are severely restricted in terms of what they can and cannot do which is why you'll get that very much a well that's not fair from one one side of the a38 to the other um but yeah i mean obviously if you're getting someone in to talk that'd be great i go to councilor actkins representing timmouth we have two one is the town centre area and one is the st james's area the town centre gives us huge headaches as it did with the neighbourhood plan because it is such a mishmash of quite modern shop fronts next to quite pretty old type shop fronts it got us into all sorts of problems in covid because a lot of the smaller shops could not negotiate a way in and a way out they had to have queues and it was all sorts of things and we were looking at trying to get bifold doors agreed and approve active shop fronts there's a whole section in our neighbourhood plan on that and i would like to think the light at the end of the tunnel is no longer a train quite frankly because there is light at the end of the tunnel um not fast enough for me i mean i'm absolutely excited as anything to hear not um steadfast sticking to like for like when technology has changed um a lot of plastic windows are now not bright sparkly white you can get them in pretty colours and i believe some are even approved by dartmore national park there's certainly a company advertising the fact and i think they were a very very pale green and fitted in beautifully with with a long house conversion so i think the writing is on the wall and i think the the existing situation is just confused and it's also discriminatory because if you own an old building you won't be able to fit a heat pump so your heat efficiency is down the tubes if you've got to put in drafty wooden windows that are going to deteriorate very very quickly although there are arguments on that i do agree but it's absolute confusion by what seems to get passed in some places and not get passed in others and timoth town centre in the triangle is a perfect opportunity of that where you see historically as well where things were not um a matter of law so you've got a betting office that's got huge uh glass windows with posters all over it to obscure the inside next to other things there's a new what used to be the dairy maid which is now brunch they meticulously replaced all their windows with appropriate wood and glass and everything and on top of it sits the accommodation which has got double glazed windows on it the riviera cinema beautiful old building the old meeting house from the town has got the luxury flats on the top and people have a lot of difficulty with understanding how these things can happen and the need for replacement in either something completely modern or pastiche or blah blah blah blah it goes on and on so i would welcome any change that were actually more responsive for members of the public to actually get a fair crack of the whip because they are being discriminated and it's also on the resale of their properties because if they can't meet the energy efficiency standards etc that's something that people will bear in mind because utilities have gone through the roof um so any any improvement from from our point of view in timoth will help enormously um not least bitten house is another one where grade two listed building we have had to jump through some ridiculous hoops in some people's view um to comply with what a conservation officer in the past required us to do which we've now been told in some circumstances um different conservation officer wanted something different so we have this um insecurity of what's going to happen even with a what's and not what's that would a pre-app even if you go through a pre-app there's no guarantee but but that by the time it comes to a formal application being submitted um the same officers will be in post and the same opinion might be there so some sort of consistency and hope for people on on a more concrete level would be much appreciated thank you go now to councillor swain thank you chair um we do seem to have established that the rules for conservation areas in teambridge are under our control and they are out of date and i'm sorry if i missed it but i don't think we had a clear answer to the question of are there plans to update those policies in the short term sorry i kind of i think i alluded to it with councillor parker in that the first i'm not sure it was a clear answer sorry the first four we've highlighted um and we're looking at trying to get resourcing in to do that because it's it's a discrete piece of work that someone just needs to go off and do rather than trying to fit it in around the day-to-day job um so we'll start with the four that we consider most at risk and then we'll move out from there and what that will do um councillor atkins is pick up on the it'll reassess the areas um and timmouth is one of the ones that we're actually we've highlighted as being the ones that need to be done first at the moment yeah um it's considered it's considered most at risk and it's had a lot of change on it as well so the buildings that are considered um most important least important etc and neutral that all needs updating in addition to various other things and we'll do that across the board so all our appraisals mark every building within that conservation area with a status of is it neutral ie as it is is it positive this is what you should aspire to or is it negative let's try and move that one up and we take the example of timmouth wellington street historically when we've had the opportunity to work with the owners who want to upgrade shop fronts to new shop fronts we've tried to get the standard up in terms of what we think we would like to see it to look like in terms of a quality street front and then as the next person comes along you can say great well we've done this here and we're not averse to modern materials that work it's just unfortunately a good quality u pvc window or a hybrid window that looks as good as a timber one is actually really really expensive and they're cost prohibitive which is why you might see them in dartmore long barns where the people there have got the money to spend on it but if you are in a small flat in the middle of timmouth and you want to do something you know you're going to struggle to reach that standard you're going to be looking at you know you stay on off the shelf plastic window and unfortunately there is a difference and they are harmful in our opinion but like you say as decision makers yourself you can call them in that's helpful thank you and can can i ask if this review that is scheduled will reflect the increasing importance of climate change related issues which we have in modern society and we do need to shift the balance in favor of more energy efficient measures particularly the solar panels and windows that are mentioned here will that be reflected in that review we've declared a climate emergency as a council nationally it's it's of relevance i think to ignore the point would be wrong but it will have to obviously reflect the fact that you are stealing still dealing with conservation areas list of buildings and with list of buildings you know it can be said that it's not it's not your house you're the custodian of that building for the next generation so when you take on a list of building you take on that responsibility that comes with it it's a bit like old ford house next door you know if you're not willing to look after it and keep don't don't buy the thing and that's kind of how we have to look at list of buildings but we have to obviously move with the times as well and you know you could say if the victorians had plastic they'd have probably used it because they like modern stuff they like what was modern to them but we are trying to essentially preserve these aspects for future generations to see and see how it was at the time so you can't twist them too far away from what they were originally but i appreciate the points and there's that balance and that's what planning's about thank you and councillor colin parker uh thank you chair um a point of concern really and i believe the recommendation from council bullivant was i think it was council bullivant i was at council this way it was regarding um a task and finish group to be set up to discuss this seemed to cancel all second it but surely the bearing of the uh the appraiser we're talking about affect that what we might recommend in that tax task and finish so we could go through the whole process but then an expert's advice could come back could change that situation so i don't know what your views are on that again because i think that's it it's sort of cart horse isn't it which comes first yeah i was about to say it's chicken or egg isn't it um i mean ultimately any group you set up will be looking at whatever policies in place government policy you know there's the option in there it says that so much of this is set at national level it's like it's almost it's a lobbying point it's a look send your mp down to parliament and say look we've got issues with this in our in our area and we want to we want to change how it works we're bound by the legislation is this quasi-judicial point again it's like so much of what we do is well it's there you follow that and where you don't follow that you need the applications and then your decision makers make it be it us or be it you so that's there in terms of your group you could be waiting you're going to be waiting more than 12 months for us to do all the appraisals like i say we're looking at the first four within the next six to twelve months they're time consuming piece of work so you could be delaying for you know several years thank you um i think it's been an interesting topic at least um it shows the level of interest from all of the members um and our willingness to sort of hear further from the officers um and be part of whatever's going to be built because um changes in the areas that are going to be designated as conservation areas we we may have little um say in um i know my own garden suddenly got changed to being not in conservation zone to in conservation zone so that was all jolly good fun but are there any further comments or questions no so we have a proposal from councilable event that um we set up a planning task and finish working group um as on the forward plan for scrutiny and that's seconded by councillor hall um i think was there anything else that i haven't quoted correctly councilable event in that thank you so can we um take a vote please by show of hands that's unanimous thank you um if you could just stay i think we have a further point so the next item is public speaking procedure at planning committee on the agenda pages 31 onwards so page 31 if everybody has read um we did have some questions raised sorry 31 sorry 31 so this was the notice of motion presented by councillor paul parker um at page 32 um and answers are presented to that are there any questions did councillor parker did you wish to say anything further on your notice motion i i would have i would have just said the reason why i brought it forward is because i sat in on a i didn't sit i was sat at the back of the room listening to the planning debate and the applicant sat there and i was talking to him and there was loads of questions that the councillors and the officers couldn't reply to and he said god i wish it was like cornwell county council because i'd be able to do points of clarification through the chairman and it would have made the process a lot easier so and more transparent and well i did have a list of um points that i could not not disagree but have a different view on the risk management points but i don't know it'll take a bit of a time to read them all out but but um like all the all the risk management the reasons they've given is incorrect information being provided by the objector or supporter well that could happen in their three minute speech anyway and um i basically my points could give a different opinion to all these things also including the financial implications because the na3 um some counselors not our counselors the objectors found that na3 if it had been more transparent perhaps they wouldn't have done a legal challenge and that was a massive cost to this council so if it could be seen to be more transparent with people asking more questions on more a greater public input or via the chair or objectors perhaps we may not have been in that position with a terrific cost with that legal challenge so it's mainly going to smaller applications i did sit on an application that the development so did most of the several people here in dawlish and there was an applicant acting for two different sites and he gave his five-minute speech and then he could see that counselors were some counselors wanted points for clarification and and um and the officers couldn't give the answers and the second speech he just answered all the queries from the first one and that never happened before and and that's basically what a theory would have been a good idea you know you wouldn't want a courtroom type appearance and perhaps people haven't got the right to reply but just simple questions from either the chair or even the officers and actually sim him the committee i sat in when sat in the back with he actually probably forgot the roles and he actually started questioning the applicant and that probably because he's worked on other authorities where that was allowed so that's i don't want to other like different to the other notice of motion this this motion does happen in other authorities and it works really well so that's i won't really say anymore thank you thank you councillor parker yeah um i think there is validity in it it's just the complexities and the um the risk element that seem to be um commented on at the moment i'll go i think councillor boulevard um thank you thank you i agree with the uh principle behind the the motion sitting on the planning committee is very helpful when objectors and supporters put forward their case however often is the case that in doing so they raise issues that would benefit through further questioning that you're not allowed in the current uh situation to ask those questions directly of a an objector or a supporter however i am aware that there are circumstances where given the nature of applications these sorts of things can become contentious and it can lead to a situation in a planning meeting which is would be unwelcome for that reason i endorse the point that councillor park has made but i would recommend that if you're going to agree to this the recommendation should be that councillors sitting on the planning committee should be allowed to ask a question of an objector or a supporter but only via the chair of the committee who we are to analyze that question or question relative to material considerations or non-material considerations it's important that the chair has the authority to seek clarification of the point being made if a councillor has a question relative to it i am concerned that haranguing of objectors or supporters by committee members would not be in the interest of this council hence my request that any request is by the chair thank you councillor boulevard i think um it does place a high level of pressure on the chair of planning but we do have the chair of planning here so i'll go to councillor colin parker thank you chair yeah um i have a few concerns regarding this um where council boulevard says yes to get clarifications from either a supporter or an objector what about if there's a supporter speaking but no objector the objector's got no no way of coming back to a point amazed on questioning to the supporters so i think that could cause concern and i'm going to repeat like a courtroom you know we're going to be over and back asking questions and the questions could be perceived to be leading if someone wants that to happen i'm not suggesting that is by the way but they could be led in a certain direction and i think we could be open to legal challenge definitely certainly a challenge of the decision um and that's something we don't really want that we certainly don't want the courtroom environment um i have concerns about this there are a lot of councils um who don't do this councillor paul parker said there are others that do yes there are others but i think the majority don't and the system um that we operate i think has been enforced for well as long as i've been on team bridge i don't see that there's any great change we've had no real problems with it over the years i can't see any reason to change it i think we're going to get complications we certainly elongate mood meetings um someone has even suggested about adding a period of time after the end of the debate for the support and objector like like another minute or something to sub and to sum up i don't think that's a good idea um and i think above all i think we might be we're doubting our officers ability to answer questions regarding what's on the report so um i don't know that i can go along with this at the moment i think status quo again is is the words that have been used today and i think that's what i would be supporting because i think otherwise we could be opening up for a load of problems thank you um councillor parker yeah that is a proposal sorry so you're proposing status quo do i have that seconded seconded by swain um i will just comment as well we do have um additional training coming up regarding code of conduct and we do have in process the officer counselor um agreement um both of which i think need to be sort of firmed up on and agreed um for us to have confidence really in any change to the system because um as a district council we may not operate in the same way that other councils do um at the moment so i think we are tightening up our own processes which um could be beneficial to if this change were um put forward i'll go to councillor rogers and then council of all i have two questions we obviously operate a different process to other district councils because that's been cited how many what percentage of district councils operate our protocol and what percentage of different councils operate another protocol and what would need to be the changes in the constitution i don't think the officer would be able to respond to that um but i respect that but i think it has to be worthy of further research yes thank you so i suppose the sort of cost benefit and um background data to it is what you're alluding to okay thank you um we can put that one behind areas for further consideration if that's okay and no councillor hall thank you thank you it obviously happens in some councils and i'd imagine before if we do accept this we would look an officer or someone would look into how those councils operate and base our model off that it's i i i don't see this as being a criticism of officers it's happened at the planning committee before and it worked well it clarified points that i had that enabled me to vote for the application it's it's not so much i don't see this as it turning into a courtroom drama i think if it's made if a supporter or objector makes a point that needs clarity it's it's perfectly reasonable for the committee through the chair to ask for clarity it's not allowing them to then have you know unlimited time to try and persuade us to vote for this application it's all about clarity and it's really important in planning committee that we have the full facts not half a fact not you know a quarter of a fact it's it's all down to allowing us to be more informed to make the better decision and there are some questions that you know officers aren't going to be able to answer but the supporter or the app or the objector can thank you councillor hall um i do recall we did have a situation where we did actually have a little bit of a discussion didn't we in the past but i think it's only occurred once on planning um i just go to councillor colin parker as chair of planning thank you just just one point um if a question was put to a supporter or objector they could come back with an answer which is incorrect totally factually incorrect um the officers may not know whether that is incorrect or not so we could be basing our decision on something which is wrong information so that really is a danger to me really that's just one point on what you said but i think that would be a concern thank you um yeah i think we do have to be careful that we're not leaving ourselves open to any legal challenges and on that i'd like to ask our monitoring officer if he has any comment he would like to make you may need to go to a microphone thank you chair thank you very much members um i think listening to the debate i just draw everybody's attention to the legal implications that i set out at the beginning of this report which which was aimed to draw members attention to some of the issues of concern that have been raised and where this might lead on the face of it it is a very straight would seem a very straightforward matter to address but actually in reality it isn't for the reasons that have been alluded to by councillor colin park who's chair of planning you could find yourself quite easily in in areas of particularly those planning applications that are emotive in nature the the propensity to to further one's cause by asking more and more questions of a speaker who's who's of the same opinion as yourselves or as those on the committee to to embolden the application and or use a series of questions that pose to somebody who's of a contrary opinion to undermine that case you then start to get disparities in time and and ability to to address the committee that gives rise to potentially gives rise to challenges and you end up in that in that cycle is already being mentioned you you you could find yourself in difficulty if there's only one speaker because they would be introducing potentially introducing new information to committee which the opposing side whether it be an applicant or an objector would not have had an opportunity to address so on on on the face of it looks very straightforward in reality it's quite complicated regardless of how many may or may not be following that particular course and of course it depends also on on the environment that that is operating at a particular council i think if if members were minded to look at this further then i think it is something that that an amount of work would need to be done in order to really bring those issues to the fore and for members to make considered decisions in respect of of those issues thank you um managing officer i don't know what else to call you um may i go to councilor paul parker yeah thank you yeah obviously i disagree with our legal advice because a lot of other um planning departments do it totally different we had a um we have a cinema cinema the other senate like i'm like the other chap i can't say what i want to say but they they they've disbanded their district council planning team they do it you were probably here they do it via um the parish and they've got to all agree everybody in the room's got to agree and they come up with the district councilor goes to the parish and they make all the decisions there and their appeals and everything that's he he said it's totally it's all diminished they haven't had big legal fat challenges like we did on the ne3 because people have got to sit in a group or all talk to come to compromise so that was a new way we'd never heard of it before but they're they're running their thing at such a low level of appeals and decisions with a brand new so i'm not suggesting go to that because that seems so extreme but this is a compromise to go in the middle and nothing against your capabilities councilor parker but if it went via the officers they would know the legal way to to question the applicants and the objectors to form a balance to you because as counselors we you're saying the the legal chap was saying so mr woodhead was saying that perhaps or we could all have our agendas but if the officers ask the questions of the objectors and the um the people in support of it it would take it away from us so that was one of the the that was one of your um one of your things that it goes doesn't go through the chair it goes through the officers and they just seek clarification and and sim manly did actually do that when i was sat at the back of the meeting so sometimes you've got to move forward staying back in the old arcade dark ages is is not a way because people feel that they've had a better they feel that the other day was the objectives for that the application to do the pub do the public it looked easy straightforward case but people wanted to have a look at it and go out so that delayed the period of um time to make a decision it cost a lot more money but the counselors weren't happy with it they wanted clarification on different points if the objector and the applicant have been able to answer questions that site visit that actual time and perhaps a challenge may not have happened so i i think we should try and other authorities do do do it and some much more extreme and do other things so you know it's it's it's up to everybody else but i do think differently than a lot of you anyway and i do understand if you don't agree with me thank you counselor parker i mean i understand the principle and the concept behind what you're asking which did seem very simple in the onset but it's clearly rather more complex i'll just go to the monitoring officer for comment thank you thank you chair members i think what's important when considering this particular matter is the the context of which this arises i.e the planning process which is a strictly confined and legislated process with the policies so an application is put forward it sets out obviously what the applicant wants members to consider it goes through the process officers write a report with their professional recommendations that is put to committee for a decision to be made now the committee can make one of three decisions either refuse approve or defer and and where there are circumstances that that members feel that they need more information from about one aspect or another or to even to go and have a have a look by way of a site visit that's a matter for members you can do that through the through that deferral stage you can defer in order to obtain further information which is then produced in a balanced way and both sides regardless of who sorry the opposing of the the yeah the opposing side whether it's an object or an applicant then has an opportunity to comment on that new information so that members are making a properly considered decision but i i think it's important when you look at these things to to to look at it from within the context of the framework that you're operating within because that's why those things exist that's why those stages those those options exist to allow sustainable decisions to be made in a fair and equitable way thank you and now to council event thank you just to summarize in our planning meetings we are obliged to be open-minded until we've heard all the evidence is presented to us part of that evidence is hearing from people objectors supporters and listening to their opinions now the range of people that do that extend from highly qualified and highly skilled professionals down to people who are less than articulate we've all seen it we've all been in committees where they do that the whole purpose of my suggested change or amendment was that obviously as a council is listening to that we will have questions or may have questions and it makes sense therefore that should a question or should a decision to be made benefit from the advice or answer to a question that that question formulated in such a way that's through the chair and remember at all of our committee meetings the chair sits in the middle to his right hand side sits the mid-legal officer to his left hand side sits the vice chair through that filter we can make sure that the questions for clarity that are put back to the objector or supporter meet the requirements for the legal protection of the council the applicant and anybody taking part in the debate for that reason i think it's delivering a level of clarity that we currently don't have it gives a level of improvement to our decision-making process and it certainly will tell the people who are making applications or have problems with applications why we've been in a position to give better consideration to the points that they make for that reason i think it's right that we listen to these people it's right that we expect the chair of the council the chair of the meeting to be able to be the person through which these points are raised and if they're appropriate put back for clarity and that's something i encourage us to vote for in support of thank you i think in terms of our protocol all questions are actually channeled by the chair to the officers anyway but i suppose we can ask that they are written questions i think that would be the only logical route the only problem is if you were to be able to assess them and then run them by the monitoring officer but i'd ask the monitoring officer to comment if i may just come back on that we're talking about a live situation here where people are standing up and talking to a committee where questions are raised it is not realistic to say please write those questions that councillors may have such that they can be considered before putting back to the person raising the point they have to be instantaneous it has to be via an appropriate filter of the chair with the advice of his vice chair and the legal team sitting next to him thank you my meaning is that during a live meeting you can also request that questions are written and handed to the chair during that meeting not in advance so if that wasn't clear but um i'll go to the monitoring officer if i may chairman i think i think there's a real danger that that and i'm not saying this is not if you like advising caution against or doing what members might wish to do or or otherwise but i think you have to be i have to advise caution about the real danger of the planning committee turned into an inquisitorial arena because that's not the function of the committee the committee is to determine the application put before it and that and the information pertinent to that is set out in an officer's report members of the public or or whoever are then entitled under our processes and procedures to address the committee however they should wish within a defined time scale and in numbers determined by whether it's a minor or a major application i i i do think that there is as i said at the outset of this there is a real danger of the process becoming inquisitorial once that happens as we've already alluded to you then get drawn into as Councillor Parker as chair of planning mentioned earlier into that disparity of well how many questions how long did that person get to to address the committee in reality they were asked x number of additional questions that amounted to 10 minutes extra of time we say we're allowed to address the committee the other the um the other party being an object or an applicant wasn't asked any questions whatsoever and therefore they only had three minutes or five minutes and so on and so forth that's the unintended consequences and such like that as alluding to in in in the legal implications element of the report and i do think it's that whichever if members are minded to pursue this further do so with real caution thank you um there's also the point that if you verbalize a question and it's webcast it's already been asked so um you know you are then potentially i suppose liable um depending on what's what's said um i'll go to Councillor Atkins it was a sort of probably my ignorance more than anything a question for Ian really when a planning application comes in and there are various objections and supporters i think if it didn't make sense to the planning officer dealing with it would they pursue questions with objective supporters the applicant or whatever before they compiled their report it would depend on exactly what the nature of it was we can only consider certain matters other matters we would consider non-material to decision making so it would depend on exactly how it was phrased but if there was a point in there that's considered say an object to put forward an issue regarding loss of light to what are the rooms in their house but it wasn't clear to us whether that was a living room or it could perhaps have been a bedroom they're considered slightly differently we would if it was a pertinent point like that and it it tipped the balance potentially yes we would have to go to them have a conversation and say look we need clarity or can we actually can we come in and have a look and see what you're talking about it would be the same with the applicant if they've made a point and again it's relevant to our decision making if it doesn't make sense we we have a duty of care to ensure that we understand what we're doing we have a code of conduct to follow and we have to consider all those relevant planning matters so yes we query it if we needed to that's great thank you thank you i've got councillor colin parker but i wonder if you want to wait until we've heard from the other two as your chair of planning and so i'll go to councillor swain thank you it's been suggested that when questions are asked respondents may lie or may not be truthful sorry can you turn your mic off because we're on thank you sorry it's been suggested that responding to questions um people may not be truthful um but i think there's just the same risk that people might not be truthful in their three minute slot so i'm not sure that's an argument um but actually i think the most important thing here and what's swaying my vote is that the planning process must must be fair and also it must be seen to be fair and i think launching down this route of deciding to ask questions of one person as we've as we've said there's it's introducing what could be seen as an element of unfairness when one person's answering several questions getting more speaking um and i think that's opening us up to a danger of appeals and objections to the way a planning process was conducted so that together with the advice we've had from the monitoring officer and the chair of planning is swaying me to to vote not to make this change thank you thank you councillor steamson yeah deferment is the underused option so therefore as it as it was mentioned earlier um you know you are you're going one way or whatever actually to defer that minimizes and stops the situation you're talking about because if you start going down having so much time for supporters to say their thing and objectives they all get three or four minutes do they not let the start and you have to say that you're going to speak so if you start opening all of that app in the public arena and we were discussing recording and stuff like that in that public arena it really could be difficult and i kind of like supporting mr woodhead said in that respect so i'm i'm sort of saying is that deferment having the right or the you know within the planning thing to actually defer for further information is the best way that this council should go thank you and councillor colin parker yeah of course deferment will had time to the whole process but anyway that's just one point that's that's yeah um i'll come to the point again about um tit for tap sort of asking questions over to get confirmation of certain items if you're going to ask um the supporter of an application question and they come back with their interpretation of that what they're what they're asking um but then an objector might not have the same interpretation i've recently been involved in discussions regarding the na3 area regarding a historic england situation where historic england reports said one thing but a report on behalf of a certain group said doesn't agree with that and said another thing so if and a supporter is the same one thing that they agree with something i give their points of view and an objector wouldn't agree with that but they're not there because in present to give that you know that's going to slant this decision one way now that's not the thing the way we should go yes a deferment we could go for a deferment but once again i had the process but i can't see it being fair if that situation arrives and it could very much arrive so i'm still not in favor of any changes here i'm sorry i think it's just opening up a hornet's nest really thank you um do um the officers have any additional comments they would like to make sorry chair i i think without taking too much time i think the the deferment as council steams said is is an option a tool that committee invariably doesn't use what it does if it if members were minded to look at it in this way what it does is actually deliver the very thing that council parker might want to deliver but it does so in a controlled way that within the existing framework and it does so not just in a controlled way but a way that's equitable to all concerned because the information would then be gathered it would be presented to all the parties whether they're the applicant the objector the committee in a in a fair-handed way and therefore representations would be then could then be submitted respect of that committee then has the full picture in which to make a properly considered and a more sustainable decision to do it in this way as i set out in in in my comments on the report would would would be very um dangerous potentially thank you i'm just thinking we don't actually have deferment training in our planning training at the moment do we um i can't recall it i think we have got further planning training proposed wasn't there going to be some coming up whether that can be introduced we can look into that um counselor parker pull thank you i've spoken to counselor bustam about this um and he when teams when cormer became unitary they decided to take up take this idea and i've actually watched online at cornish how it works online and as everybody else watch it because it's not this confrontational courtroom scene like your envisage it's just points for clarification it's so calm and it and it answers questions that counselors don't understand so have you have you seen a few of you you know you i think you should watch because i've bothered to do my homework and watch it i thought god that's the way forward that's how we want to work but you know it's mr wood have you watched it sorry have you watched it i i i don't really i don't think it's appropriate to get drunk it is because you're trying to say that it's going to be a courtroom thing everybody's going to be lying to each other it's all going to be a terrible thing and if you've actually watched it it doesn't come over like that i just sorry i know you're very passionate i can't i can't say it i'm not going to swear i'm just going to walk out because take a minute take a minute chairs and members who to answer the question i have watched a number of them can i suggest we might want to pause the meeting for a moment if you wish because those that are not present during the debate won't be able to vote where were we at if i go to i think the monitoring officer was going to comment am i right chair i was in the process of of responding to council parker's question as to whether i'd watched um any of the videos and recordings of cornwell council's hearings the answer to that question is as i was about to say whilst it's not particularly relevant to this but i have but more maybe more importantly i held a senior position within legal services at cornwell council um some time ago and i was one of the legal advisors to the unitary authority in transition um and i'm fully conversant with what their processes were at the time clearly not so now because i'm not a member of of of that council um my point is at no time i said don't do this what what or do it it's uh i remain neutral in that respect what i'm saying is be very careful and about uh the unintended consequences which i've mentioned in in in the legal implications and the report um and that there are already existing processes in place has been mentioned by councilors on this committee that would address i think the mischief that council parker is trying to address um himself thank you um i think that's the steam well yeah obviously i followed mr parker out of the room um this way for me is to actually defer the whole the whole the whole proposal at this moment in time so we can probably all do a little bit more homework maybe look at the council county cornwell county councils away where they might or might not be doing things and at least go and have a chat about it or look more into it ourselves and put it back on the agenda in the future that is my proposal i don't think we can get any further forward today with that with one member who's who's whose nomination it is um without them being here and um do we have a seconder for that proposal councillor hall and we didn't have a substantive motion already yes i'm just we've got three other speakers as well so i withdraw the motion if that's the case to support what you said i've said i've withdrawn my proposal to approve i want to go down there okay can you bear with me one second and the uh i'd be happy if i withdraw somebody to that you know i don't disadvantage anybody yeah we've reached a consensus we should get over there if there's a question i don't i don't want to have another i'm quite happy to withdraw my proposal and i think the seconder is happy as well subject to and pass it on to the amendment which was proposed by council steveson i think we've got to be open and i last thing i wanted to do so upset anybody with you know our conversation and it's only our opinions that's all it's ever meant to be so you know if we want to defer that and discuss it at a later date then i'm quite happy to withdraw it thank you i've just got councillor rogers wishing to speak as well so did you want to comment now or i got i got one question i support councillor steveson's deferral but i've got a question what does the comp what would we have to do for the constitution to take this forward because something's got to be done but how are we moving forward with the rules of the constitution okay thank you um we'll make note of that i think if we take the proposal from councillor steveson to defer this um notice motion seconded by councillor hall and we can have a show of hands to approve that please the unanimous thank you so that's carried um and i think like to thank councilor paul parker for his contributions because i think everybody acknowledges um that it does deserve further discussion and it may well go into the task and finish group that will be set up for planning as another issue to be discussed but as we've said it will now be deferred um to a later date thank you and thank you for all the contributions i think we've had quite a lot of discussion thank you also to officer perry for his contributions to all those notices of motions on planning and to the monitoring officer thank you so we now move forward to point 13 the feedback on the task and finish group um the medium term financial plan neither the chair nor the vice chair are here so i understand councillor billigan will present the report okay um we will defer your the medium term financial plan report um i think that was deferred from the last meeting so um it can go to the july meeting and perhaps there'll be more to report on it at that time anyway um because it's meeting this afternoon if anybody would also like to offer their services to the medium term financial plan working group we have um a couple of spaces and that ladies and gents is the end of our meeting thank you for your attendance and contributions