Transcript

Oh, well. So good morning Councillors and officers. Welcome to this meeting with the Aquinas Committee and Councillor Fiona Wilson, chair of the committee. The meeting is being audio webcast and recorded, recording will be uploaded onto the Council of the websites back to the meeting. First item on the agenda is apologies for absence. And can we just have a quick report for Democratic services regarding the substitutions? We've had two apologists today, Councillor Craig Brown and Councillor Stuart Gardner. We have two substitutes, Councillor Michael Gorman and Councillor Chris O'Leary. Okay, thank you very much. Otherwise, we're all here. So move on to agenda rights and two decorations of interest, all the recommendations of interest. Thank you, Doki. We have no public speakers registered, I understand. So we all move swiftly to our first, our agenda item for the interim and permanent recruitment of executive directors and directors service. We have a paper before us with a number of recommendations because I'm first going to ask Mr Brown, Director of Governance and Compliance to talk us through the paper. Thank you very much, Chair. There is essentially a single item paper for you today which relates to the recruitment of the interim and permanent agreement of executive directors and directors services. You'll see from the recommendations on that paper, the paper is essentially in two parts. The first is to deal with the current interim vacancies and that's to provide support across the organisation and the permanent recruitment. Recommendation 1 provides for the Chief Executive to undertake that of urgent interim recruitment. That recruitment will be done in consultation. The recommendation is with the Chair and Vice Chair of the Equipment Committee. The more permanent recruitment will then take place following the completion of the DMA review and the Corporate Policy Committee and essentially full council approving a new structure. In order to facilitate the permanent recruitment of the posts, the report provides for an agreement for the equipment of a recruitment partner to assist the Chief Executive in a number of potential vacancies that we have. Those vacancies and the structure when it's confirmed will be required to undergo a job evaluation process. A job evaluation process ensures that there is an equality of pay across both gender and types of roles. If any of those roles exceed remuneration of 100,000 pounds, there will need to be a recommendation to full council and that's provided for by a noting recommendation at recommendation 3. You will also see that the report provides in its appendix for a recruitment timetable. That recruitment timetable essentially is covered by recommendation 4 which is allowing the Chief Executive or essentially an instruction to the Chief Executive to undertake an expeditious recruitment timetable to ensure the permanent vacancies are undertaken as quickly as possible and again that's reflected in 5 which is your agreement to that timetable in broad terms. The committee's responsibility relates to the appointment of Chief Executive, Executive Directors and the statutory officers, that's the Chief Finer Officer and the Monitor Officer. In this case the committee will inevitably live in permanent roles, be concerned with our current structure, the Executive Director of Place, which is currently the interim Mr Peter Skates and the permanent role of what is currently the Executive Director of Corporate Services and the permanent role of what is currently the Chief Financial Officer. So there are three roles on our current structure the committee will be considering. That may change when the new structure is agreed. So hopefully there should be any further questions but I'm of course more than happy to assist Laura and Chair. Okay thank you Mr. Brown, other questions? Councillor Liu. Thank you Chair. Chair, I would read the monitor of so could just walk through the timetable over the interim appointments and the likely and also just talk through the financial implications. Thank you Chair. I can deal with the timetable first. The timetable for the permanent recruitment will be essentially dependent on what the new structure looks like as it goes through. I understand that the Chief Executive is in consultation and seeking advice from multiple sources, including things such as the local government association and confirming his proposals for the new structure. Any new structure will potentially require a degree of consultation with staff. So that may be up to a 30-day consultation period depending on what's proposed. If it's a simple like for like then of course no consultation will be required so it becomes a slightly speeder. The structure if it is any significant change will be approved or require recruitment at Corporate Policy Committee and that will be elected members engaging in that process to approve that. Job evaluations, if they are more than 100,000 fans, will be required to be considered Council on the 17th of July. When that has gone through the meeting start the recruitment process and that will allow essentially two and a half months, the 16th of all total, which is the next full Council meeting to identify, recruit and make an offer to our Chief Financial Officer who will be equipment of full Council. The recruitment of the exact directors, it's a like the line that could sit with this committee. So this committee will have to sit, I would have thought, no later than the end of September, to appoint the Executive Directors and to make the recommendation for the Council for the Chief Financial Officer for the 16th of October. I hope that sort of assists broadly with the timetable. You would then allow in most of these roles, usually around the three months notice period from the date of the appointment, which if you were to assume it's the 16th of October, will bring somebody into the organisation with the last January. On the financial side of it? Well the financial side at the moment we are holding vacancies, the interim posts will have to be paid out of the existing salary budgets. In corporate services, for example, if we recruit an interim Executive Director, we will have to ensure that that is met from our current salary provision. There is three vacant direct posts on the end of this week, one of which will be covered by Chief Financial Officer and the interim capacity. And this will be the second, there will still be the salary from the third vacant post at the moment. And I think I just need to be clear that it will be a matter for all, it's not a matter for this committee, it's a matter for the Chief Executive for the recruitment of interim directors, as they fall below the level of interest for elected members. Okay thank you Mr. Brown, any more questions? Okay well let's go into the discussion now. I mean I can move the recommendations, I'll move the recommendations then. I'm moving the recommendations of page four of the report, recommendations one to five, is that seconded? Could I just ask a question, unless recommendation one please? Of course, as we're about to, we'll stay in the debate then, so why don't you go work, Council Simon? I'm just a bit concerned about the wording as required in consultation with chair and vice chair for this committee, as it is a recommendation. Do we need to enhance wording a bit on that? It just seemed a bit vague to me that we were actually approving something as required. Okay, I'll take the, I'll take two of the hands goals, I'll take those questions and then I'll go back to Mr. Brown. So Councillor Cloudsworth, then Councillor Corcoran. Yes, so bearing in mind some of the information that Mopranon says has given us, in relation to recommendation one, I appreciate that this is in consultation with chair and vice chair, the accordance committee, the very money legislation is very key on there being a cross-party element to this and the chair and the vice chair are actually part of the administration, I would call it appropriate to have myself or one of the main opposition party members as part of that process that in my recommendation one, probably because I'd like to make a little bit of a recommendation to be the member of the main opposition party to set the consultation with chair and vice chair and I would recommend that that may be taken separately. The reason of taking behind that, most of the people here have heard me say the call but policy committee, but when we were delegating authority there, I've said as chair of court that policy, I would want to involve members to the fullest extent possible. We've heard the legal opinion as to exactly how that can go, but this is the result of that, there's a balance with that, that there is a need for urgency, that we do have a number of vacancies, particularly at a director level, and the reasons behind that are twofold, one is it was cost-saving, but more importantly we've known for a long time we were going to be getting a new chief executive and we wanted the new chief executive to be in place so that they could influence the structure of the organisation before we appointed those permanent roles. We are now at that position, so items two to five, I will fully endorse recruiting to those vacancies as soon as possible. So items two to five, I would have no hesitation in proposing. Item one, there we don't have the full structure chart available to us yet, it hasn't yet been set up, so the questions are do we try and get more people involved in the in consultation with or the other option might be to defer item one until I get it to come back to the full appointments committee when that full structure chart is available, so when the chief executive proposed a senior management structure and the DMA has been fine, so the decision making the committee report has been finalised and made available to the committee. Now I put forward two possible options there to influence the debate, but Chair may I suggest that if I could propose that we take items two to five and maybe debate and vote on those first and then come back to the debate on item one which is probably more controversial. Mr Brown do you want to respond to any response to the questions of the main? In respect to the ASB required, that really relates to the difference between the executive director and the director roles. It's not required for the directors roles because that falls within the chief execs responsibility outside of this committee's terms development. It is required for the executive director, so we could just put a comma after executive director and remove and directors as required because actually that adds nothing really. It was more explanatory than and if it's confusing then we can you know that will be a way of dealing with that. A matter of opposition groups and matter entirely for the committee are not for me. The deferral process, just bearing in mind that your confirmed revised structure probably won't be approved until corporate policy on the 13th of June, so that would create a degree of... Sorry Chair if I may just be clear I'm not suggesting we wait till the 13th of June and the structure having been formally approved by committee I'm suggesting you might wait until the chief executive has put forward a proposed structure which hopefully would be within a few weeks. No, okay, so what counter-core groups propose that we agree recommendations two to five and then we spend a bit more time discussing recommendation one with any potential amendments that might come forward. I'm happy to second as counter-core group proposal regarding two to five. So we're now discussing two to five that are only points people want to make recommendations two to five. Councillor Ploughs. In addition to number five that agree the timetable while looking at the timetable I appreciate that we have to operate within the parameters of our legislation and the community system so right things have to go to the right committee of right time in the right order but I just wondered you know bearing in mind the necessity to move at a quicker place as possible. We have in the past when there has been this kind of urgency we have had for example special full council meetings with one agenda. Are we ruling that out because I do actually see this as being a potential way of past 40-day making this a little bit quicker or indeed having special support across the meetings to bring things forward. We'd rather depend how well and how rapid the process behind seats is going. I wouldn't want to rule it out if we creep speed up this process and actually get people in before the next year because that seems an awfully long time away. I know in terms of how these things go it's not in terms of our needs. Okay, I'll leave the comments on recommendations two to five. Anything you want to respond to Mr Brown? No, again on five we could turn it into an indicative timetable and that would allow more flexibility for operations if that's I was the proposal. I'm very happy to accept the suggestion of the monitoring office so we change the word into an indicative timetable and endorse councilor plaz's comments. We want to do this as soon as possible so if we can move it advance the timetable I would be in the position of that. So councilor Corcoran's moved the amendment to insert the indicative between the timetable and five on the first line. Councilor Claz, I'm sure you'll second that. Okay. Okay, we'll vote on the amendment. So the amendment has been proposed by councilor Corcoran, seconded by councilor Claz. The point number five is that we're indicative between the timetable for those in favour please share. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Okay, that's also unanimous. Thank you. I need all the points on points two to five. Nope. Okay, so we'll vote on points two to five. All those in favour of points two to five, including five as amended please indicate. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Okay, that's also unanimous. Thank you. So we now need to turn our attention to point one. I mean, a number of points have been made, but I've not yet got any amendments on the table. Did you want to respond to any of the points that were made about in that discussion? I mean, we've suggested that we have an amendment to remove our directors as required. So I'll move that then. So in second line, after executive director, we're going to insert a comrade's lead and director's as required, because in fact, it's the interim executive director's role that is the responsibility and interest of this committee. The director's as required is specifically the responsibility of the chief executive. Does anybody want to speak on that amendment? And on, you want to speak? Well, I'd like to make an amendment, but I'm happy with that bit of it. Okay, and council class where he wanted to speak on this particular bit. I was just going to say there's no pollining. It's okay. The punctuation, please. And the structure in the area. So we're removing the words under directors as required. All those in favour of removing those words are required. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Okay, so that is also agreed on the numbers. Okay, another amendment. Yes. So on that revised recommendation, I'd also like to add any consultation which I must check if one is going to be involved in the name of the position of people. Is that secondary? Yes, thank you. Anything I should wish to say? No, I think I answered four of the things earlier. Okay, council Corcoran. I actually agree with the amendment. I might also want to say I'm the leader of the council, because I would like to be consulted as well. I'm not in there. Is it through the chair? Is it appropriate to do that as a separate amendment? Well, if I turn to council, I have the amendment. Yeah, so let's keep it, let's keep it. We might need a paper room at this point. Okay, so on point one, it's been moved on second bid, that we added the end on member of the made up position group. Okay, all those in favour of that amendment, please show. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. This is also unanimous. Okay, so I'm the Corcoran. I agree with the amendment to say and for the leader of the council. And chair, should then not be the leader and the amendment. Deputy leader. Well, this is the point. This is the point I was going to will know, because the point is that Mr Brand made the point at the beginning and this is something we do need to get back to and I've been waiting for some sort of other stuff. So we can agree generally, but until the AGM of the council, Councillor Brown is actually the vice chair of the committee, because the committee and vice chair of the committee are a council appointment. Councillor Gorman, of course, is covering and has been involved in the interim selection. So he has been actually acting as the vice chair of the committee. So, I mean, my view would be that it should be the chair, myself, the vice, the council of Gorman in the sort of vice chairs role. Do we agree that? Sorry, Chair, perhaps if I could thank Councillor earlier for his intervention to simplify matters, it might be best just to say if I could put forward the amendment in consultation with the chair of the appointments committee. Councillor might go on Councillor Sam Corcoran and the leader of the main position. Did you say the representative of the main position? So, my preference would be that we may name the officers rather than the name of the Councillors. So the leader of the council and the deputy leader of the council. Okay, so the, it's looking at the amendments going to be the chair of the appointments committee, the leader and deputy leader of the council and a member of the main opposition group. Yeah, that's what it would end up looking like. Yes, now I know we've voted on one bit already, but there with me, because I wanted to sort of be really clear who's going to be involved, because the more people you put in, the more, you know, the longer it gets. I think, if you're my definition, if you're a junior perspective of consultation, well, let's not complicate matters. So, the amendment would be in consultation with the chair, the appointments committee, the leader and deputy leader of the council and a member of the main opposition group. I think that makes it really clear that we're attending to our responsibilities under the legislation, that we are making the attendance for the representation, a council representation rather than an administration representation, which Mr. Brown has explained to us earlier. Can I just support the clarification? Are you taking out Vice-Chair? Well, we are, yes, because the current Vice-Chair, as appointed by council, is actually the number. It will change. May at the end of the council meeting, which is not that far off. So, yes. I think if we, I would personally know the posts rather than the people, that's just me, and I think if we, if we made those posts, they are current, we know who probably holds those posts apart from if the main opposition group which denominates. So, I think it's easier to do it like that, because, yeah, and it doesn't stop at four council for us to acquit as a woman, as the Vice-Chairman, or just sort of gets a double one in terms of his presence on consent. No, we don't get too much. Nice, driver, no. Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to chance go to those on this then. All those in favour of the amendment, please indicate. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. That's unanimous, too. Okay, don't keep. So, I think we have, dealt with all of those recommendations. So, unless I'm... Well, we've got the amendment to one. You just need to actually debate, while it... Okay, yes, I'll leave you very, very thank you, Mr. Brown, for kissing me on track. So, we have the amended one. Do you wish me to read it out again, or are you all okay with it? You're, we'd like to add again. So, the point one is now going to, recommendation one, is now going to read, delegate to the chief executive, your authority to recruit an interim executive director in consultation with the chair of the approval committee, the leader and deputy leader of the council, and a member of the main position group. Excellent. All those in favour? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. It's again unanimous. Okay, so I do now think we can't reach the end of our agenda items. So, thank you very much to all for attending. Thank you, Mr. Brown, for your assistance and explanations. We've completed the business of the agenda, and I now declare the meeting close. Thank you, Mr. Leader. Absolutely, yes. [INTERPOSING VOICES]