Transcript

act. Apologies. Good evening. Welcome to this meeting of the overview and scrutiny committee on Monday, the 17th of June. I'm Councillor Tom Dawlings, and I'm the chairman of this committee. Before we start, please give your full attention to the following announcements from the clock. Thank you, Chair. Good evening, everybody. In the event of the fire alarm ringing continuously, you must immediately evacuate the building at walking pace. Officers will escort you via the most direct available route and no one is to use the lift. We will make our way to the fire assembly point by the entrance to the Town Hall Yard car park on Monson Way. Once outside, a check will be made to ensure everyone has safely left and no one is to re-enter the building until advised it is safe to do so. This is a public meeting and proceedings are being webcast live online. A recording will also be available for playback on the council's website shortly afterwards. Any other third party may also record or fill meetings unless exempt or confidential information is being considered, but are requested as a courtesy to others to give notice of this to the clerk. The council is not liable for any third party recordings. Can I remind everyone to use the microphones when speaking and turn them off when you are not. The red light indicates the microphone is on. Any comments that are not recorded for the webcast may not be included in the minutes of the meeting. It is very important that the outcomes of the meeting are clear. At the end of each substantive item, the chairman will ask whether the matter is agreed. In the absence of a clear majority or if the chairman decides a full vote is desirable, a vote will be taken by a show of hands. Members requesting a recorded vote must do so before the vote is taken. Thank you chair. Thank you. For the record, we are going to take a roll call. The clerk will call your name and if you are present, please introduce yourselves. Thank you chair. Councillor Bryce. Oh sorry. Councillor Bryce. Present. Thank you. Councillor Butcher-Allen. Present. Thank you. Councillor Fox. Present. Thank you. Councillor Jones. Present. Thank you. Councillor Keefe. Present. Thank you. Councillor Kent. Present. Thank you. Councillor LePage. Present. Thank you. Councillor Mobs. Present. Thank you. Councillor Knight. Present. Thank you and Councillor Dawlings. Present. Thank you chair. Thank you. Well first welcome to new members of this committee. Earlier I had to quote Claudette when she told me I was one of the eldest and I said can we just leave her as elder. But I've done this job when I first became on the council and then I was in the cabinet and then I was leader and now I'm way into opposition and I'm very happy to help anyone with any issues that they have. And so welcome to you all and hope we get to know each other in the course of the year. For the benefit of anyone who may be unfamiliar with our meetings I would like to explain that committee members have had their agendas for over a week and have had the opportunity to ask questions of officers ahead of the meeting. When we come to the substantive items of the agenda there will be an introduction by the relevant officer or Councillor. Following the introduction any visitors will be invited to speak. We have no speakers today. We then move into member discussion and I will first ask for questions before opening the floor for debate. At the end of the debate we will formulate a resolution and members should ensure that any proposals or actions are correctly captured before we move to a vote. So agenda item one is to note any apologies for absence from members of the committee and Caroline please confirm we have no apologies. So we're all present and correct. Agenda item two is to receive any declarations of interest or notification of party whip on any of the items on the agenda. Does anyone have any such declarations to make? And I can see none. Agenda item three is to note any non-committee members who have registered to speak and as I've already observed we don't have any. Agenda item four is to approve the minutes of the meeting held on the 25th of March. This is for accuracy checking only. No issues have been brought to my attention in advance but are there any amendments to these minutes? This is you, David, Brendan and me I think. I'm happy with them. Are you happy with them? Happy with them. Thank you. The motion is to agree the minutes. Are we agreed? Agreed. Thank you. Agenda item five is to consider any items called in under overview and scrutiny committee procedure rule 13 but I confirm that there are no such items for this meeting. Agenda item five is the overview and scrutiny committee annual report. The report is set out in pages 13 to 26 of the agenda pack and Caroline Britt, senior democratic services officer will introduce the report. Thank you, chair. Thank you, chair. For those unfamiliar this is obviously an annual report and it's originally it gets brought to overview and scrutiny initially in March as a draft and it basically gives a summary of what's gone on in the year and that includes any work on tasks and finish groups, it will give details of any items that are called in or if the urgency waivers have been used and it gives details of things of members' attendance and a brief summary of presentations done by councillors, portfolio holders throughout the year. Once that draft is agreed at the March meeting it gets brought to the June meeting for confirmation before going before full council in July for final approval. So it's really I know most of you weren't here in March or on the committee in March but it just gives an idea of what it's just something that is done each year and it gives a summary of everything that's gone on over the year in overview and scrutiny. So very happy to take any questions or any comments. Thank you, Caroline. Well if you've read the report for people new here it's sort of I think it's a little bit of a little bit more background as to what we actually do. I think it reflects work that we've carried out last year and I'm happy to have to present this to full council and I hope we are too. Does anyone have any problem with that? Because otherwise I'd just like to present the motion is to agree this annual report and make sure that we're all going to agree. Brendan. I'm very happy to accept the report as an accurate reflection of what we've done but is it permissible to ask a couple of questions that follow on from some of the information in the report or is that for another time? I think I'm very happy to take questions. If it's a follow-up from the report then I don't think we're going to amend the report but we will table a concern or a point that you want to raise. Go ahead. One thing is I was going to ask in the governance report there was talk of making sure that potential substitutes were being trained on planning and overview and scrutiny and so the first question is is that an example of something that's part of a more general term which is how is there a feedback loop? We listened for example to the governance presentation. We made comments and suggestions in that meeting but then there is no check whether that's done or whether there's a follow-up that I'm aware of so I just wondered if there's some kind of feedback loop from that exercise to actually monitoring that those things are done. Well I think there should be and we all talked about the change of governor's arrangements and they were agreed by full council. What I'm not quite sure about is how many nominations for substitutes to committees have actually been put forward and I think that's a question, a reasonable question that we should ask. The reason for the substitutes of course was to ensure that committees were up to scratch with people who were fully qualified in the work of the committee so named substitutes are obviously quite important because we want to make sure that they are appropriately inducted into the work of the committee. So yes I think it's something that we ought to seek an answer for. Do we have any suggestions on the process for the follow-up then? Is that something that we should just make notes of here and review at our regular meetings? Because I think it's a very good point that Brendan has raised because otherwise these things just go into the ether and I don't actually know what we talked about quite extensively didn't we? I'm not quite sure who's approved for instance or what committee to step in, I think we should know that. So just what process do you think we should have Geoff? Well I think in this particular issue we'll note this as an item that's been raised and I will pursue through the Chief Executive. Brendan was that just the one point or did you have another point? Yeah that was the one point I think I need to phrase my perhaps David and I can talk about phrasing what we're thinking of a bit more succinctly and clearly and then discuss it at another time and bring it to the meeting another time. Okay thank you. So the motion is that we agree to with the annual report going forward for Council. Agreed. Thank you. Item 7 on the agenda is to consider the work programme which is set out in pages 27 to 28 of the main agenda pack and that it is the start of the municipal year and there are very few items currently on the work programme. It is also fair to point out that when we look at the action points for the portfolio holders you know an awful lot of them have actually got none in their five year in their forward plan and so I think a detailed programme for this committee probably first demands a forward plan from the Cabinet. Last year we introduced the item to invite portfolio holders to the committee to give a presentation on particular issues that were of interest to the committee and I would like this to continue and we'll welcome your thoughts as to what topics you might like to hear more about. Again I'm very happy to listen to them this evening but again it may be that you'd like to see what's coming up in the forward plan for the Cabinet members before you know formulating your views. Alex Richard Allen suggested that we might like to invite Town and Country to give a presentation to this committee. Town and Country are the major social housing provider in the borough and I think that's a really important thing to hear from. We do have here, some of you may be on it, the housing advisory panel which does I think meet from time to time with Town and Country housing and obviously the head of our housing section is involved with that but I just feel that we, the council used to have council housing, we effectively outsourced that to Town and Country, our housing stock and I think we felt that they had the capital to invest and this was a better thing for the private sector to do than for the council to do and I just think it is a very valid thing now to invite them in and ask them effectively how they're performing in the delivery of housing services to those who need it. So I fully think that we ought to have it and I think it's an excellent suggestion Alex, thank you. Anyone, any comments? Brendan. I'm sorry to have comments. On planning, quite often developers say well we've gone around to places like Town and Country to look after social housing that we might build and companies like Town and Country say sorry we're not interested in managing the social housing so then the developer says sorry we can't do it. So that is an issue I think especially now that all of these, they've got a special name, companies like Town and Country can simply say well we're not interested. Social housing providers. For social housing providers, yeah, whereas when it was in the council then we did it. Well we did it if we could afford to do it probably but there are now a raft of social housing providers and they provide well into the thousands of social housing in the borough and our focus, our legal responsibility of course is for the homeless and so it's not just social housing providers, it's to provide temporary accommodation to those who are otherwise on the street. And obviously housing is better than putting people into bed and breakfast accommodation and so that is I think where the council's key responsibility has to be but in terms of increasing the pool of social housing I think that hearing how Town and Country and maybe others are actually doing that I think that's a really important discussion to have. David. Thank you Chair. From memory last year when they came to the committee they were in the process of selling off some of their stock I think and acquiring new so they were reviewing all their assets so I think it would be very useful and I fully support Alex's suggestion to do that. I think we should be clear as well as exactly what questions we want to be asking them obviously before they come in and it might be useful to have the portfolio holder possibly in the same meeting so we can clarify exactly what our responsibility is as a council in what you were saying Alex and then how they're taking up our need and our requirement if they are still deemed to be our number one social housing provider. Thank you Chair. Alex. Thank you Chair. If we could also, I'd be interested to know about their ongoing maintenance plans as well. I know going around in not just my ward but other wards lots of reports coming back that maintenance issues aren't being addressed and they're getting progressively worse or they're being reported so I'd be interested to hear back on that, hear back on an angle even of what their maintenance structure is, what their ongoing structure is and how they look to you know afford that and going forward and what their plans are. Yeah I agree it's important. I mean Town and Country's parent is Peabody and Peabody had someone at a death in one of their flats within the last year I think from mouldy housing, mould in the flat. I mean I don't think it was a flat in this borough but it was you know Peabody is still the owners of Town and Country who do have the vast majority of social housing in the borough. Vic. Thanks Chair. I think a really interesting point around maintenance there and it would be good to ask some questions about the timeframes and the deterioration while you're waiting for that work to be done and what that costs effectively. I think that would be a really interesting question to get some more detail on and then this is, I was going to say something but it's been recorded but this is an unprepared thought but David you might remember when we had the new council induction we had a conversation about outsourcing in other areas as well particularly around refuse collection and what that was looking like and when those contracts were coming up and I thought it was a really interesting point to talk about the housing stock and what that looks like and the decisions that were made to you know move to Town and Country Housing. I wonder if there's a similar question to be kind of considered at a later point about the outsourcing of other contracts and if there's a sensible time to kind of pause and ask those questions about the delivery of those services as well. Again I'll say that here it's something that needs to be considered I think in a bit more detail but maybe something for us to come back to and you might remember more David from that induction session. Well first on Town and Country let's get an invitation in to them to come to a meeting and when we've got that scheduled we can then you know Caroline will write to us all and say when they're coming and we can then start thinking about the sort of things you might like to ask them. The sort of second part of your question was long term contracts which are going to come for renewal in 20 in 27 so probably some for the really major one waste you know that'll need to be beginning to be addressed I think in the relatively near future and we can pick up the we can pick up the financial aspects I think when we when we start talking about the budget which I think the budget will come to us in about November but in terms of the planning that's going on I think it's I'll I'll start exploring when some work is happening and when some input might be might be appropriate and then we can invite the officers responsible for the contracts to come talk to us. Okay. So Brendan. Sorry I had two ideas for people to call in. One is obviously Kent Highways not just for potholes but there are lots of things that they are responsible for but they don't actually communicate with us through the JTB well enough and I'd like to know how much they're spending on pothole repair but also how much they're spending on claims for damages and what counts as de minimis which is stuff that they just will ignore and say well sorry it's not serious enough that kind of thing all the pavements the trimming of hedges and trees all sorts of things which are behind schedule and the other thing one other thing is that I've noticed so often on planning that when there's a big development comes forward planning officers write to KCC and say is this okay can we put 70 houses on this road and KCC writes back and says yeah it's fine every time and they won't put any money into the pedestrian crossing or the widening displays or anything they just say I think the road will cope with the traffic and I think that could be teased out from them a little bit as well and then the only other one I thought seeing that we had reasonable success with southeast water we should perhaps ask southern water to come have a look south west water yeah for the other half of the process it's just a thought I think that's a bit to think about we will see see what we can do about that and if you have any further ideas when the next forward plan is published there may be some issues that spring to mind spring to mind on that the that's what people who might invite here but we've also have task and finish groups we've had a task and finish group looking into contracts and I'm aware that a draft report has been received by Caroline and we will address that at our next meeting I think. We also had formed a task and finish group on council accessibility and of the people who were put forward for the for that task and finish group I'm the only one who's still here so if anyone is interested in looking at council accessibility this is the way we communicate and the way we get feedback which I think we've done a lot better in recent years on the on the budget side but we there is feedback there's been a lot of a lot of discussion on the PR2 bus gate you know are we are we correctly listening to these people and that was discussed at the JTB but that just as an example I just wonder you know whether our the council's response and explanation was actually sort of good enough and whether we felt we could do something better but that's just an example of the sort of communication issue that I think the council ought to ought to do last year we also had consultation on parking and introducing new parking charges and you know I just feel that who's whose idea was it that we should look at this this was the audit and governance felt that we ought to look at it and I think there are some issues that just need to be teased out so that you know we do know how the council communicates how it receives the information and what it does with it so that was the purpose of that task and finish group now is anyone interested in spending a couple of evenings discussing it Alex are you volunteering Martin are you volunteering can I ask a question about it yeah of course you can ask it is it just about communication in terms of the council's message to the public or does it take a wider accessibility role in the councils and the public being able to access council buildings and council facilities I think we're talking about council communication and accessibility you know are we are we listening to people you know how we how do we show that we're actually doing that that's that's I think what it's about as much as as much as just communication you know I think again in terms of communication I think we're doing quite a good job I mean I think the weekly email to all residents that's you know that's been came in about three years ago I think and is you know quietly being improved over time I think it's really good you know is it how effective is it you know are people happy with it you know that's that's the side on the communication but accessibility I think is a bit more communication it's it's about response to residents and I think that's that's where we probably need to think about it a bit more but I'm not saying I know the answers I'm just saying that's the sort of thing we want to have a couple of evenings perhaps chewing over with a few people David thanks chair from memory the last public consultation that we did along these lines didn't come back with terribly favorable feedback about what we as a council do now I might be misremembering this so excuse me if I am but perhaps if someone's going to do this they should look back at the last public consultation we did asking for feedback from our residents and pick up any points where the residents have already told us probably going back 18 months now that we are failing that might be you might want to use that as the groundwork to be clear I'm not volunteering for the task of an issue I'd really done at the time unfortunately but I'm just possibly offering that as it might that might be a good starting point if we're looking at communication out so yeah just throw it in there's an idea thank you chair I think it's absolutely right we want to look right back at things that you know communication and then responses that we've already received yeah absolutely don yes thank you chair what about using neighborhood plan information as well that way you get quite a bit of fact are more public one will require yeah I don't want to run the job of the plant tasking finish group their job is to think about these things and I'm just trying to you know tease out what the purpose of this task and finish group is and try and encourage a few people perhaps to you know to spend a couple of evenings looking at these issues Martin I'm very keen on the review of the review I'm very you know that's I was on the JTB and there was a note from on the agenda about a year or so ago saying update on active travel we thought this will be interesting and they came up with a fantastic absolutely brilliant scheme for a really wonderful cycle route which would have cost multi million pounds would be fantastic on the other side of the Pembry Road from the existing cycle route so the message went back actually it's a complete waste of time and it's going to stop a whole toll road so you then have to cross over cycle out on the existing cycle route to Pembry and then cross back over again in order to get to Pembry that's at no point did anybody from the JTB come to anybody at somebody's worlds and say if you're gonna have a cycle route where would you like it so I'm very keen indeed to this they basically turn up and say we're gonna do this aren't we good and as a list of completed works but at no point are we consulted about what we would like to see so I'm very keen to see a review of how it would work so would you think Martin that we'd like some people to put their heads together for an evening and make some suggestions yes I think yes and then we work out what we want to hear yeah answer questions that we want if I can interrupt I'd suggest that councilor did stand be involved and maybe and some possibly some people from KCC who might you know perhaps point us in the right direction but I leave that to greater intellects than mine we like to run to task and finish groups so if we have one that was looking at our council accessibility on the communication and one that was going to explore look at the JTB and how it might not might operate better do people think that's a reasonable program for us to look at for the next for the next few months yeah I think that's that's great program I just two things one is that my understanding and I've never been to one of these meetings is that KCC doesn't cases can't always doesn't always take them terribly seriously and they don't send senior enough officers who can actually make decisions and do things and Martin can correct me if I'm wrong but that was impression I got and the other thing is if we do if we agreed to do a call in on Kent highways then that's kind of part of it I don't know whether it's logical to do them at the same time and ask Kent highways why they don't take the JTB seriously enough I'm talking without very much background knowledge well let's let's invite highways in and then reckon that from that discussion we'll we will then have a follow up call it task and finish group and see what we can come up with it she's going to improve the operation I'd be very keen to try and get some elected councillors from rural areas involved it's not just about umbridge worlds presumably the problems that we have in tumbridge world I'm sorry flexed out in you know the gal first the lambda horse the hawker the crime groups of this world and I think it would be we should remember that yeah so everyone we want counselors representing those areas as well and that seems reasonable I mean parish councils do have what they call highways improvement plans and my assessment is that you talk to some and they'll say they're complete waste of time when you talk to others and say oh we've managed to get something done I think the problem with all these things of course is they fall down on the basis of there is no money but that doesn't mean to say we shouldn't try I mean very often these these things don't really need much money it's just that because they're small KCC can't be bothered with them but things like putting in a pedestrian crossing somewhere which isn't you know I mean I know they're very expensive but it's not it's not a motorway but these things are actually quite small putting yellow lines on the corners of some roads so that you can see more clearly near schools when you know these things don't actually cost but because they're small they don't care they're insignificant and I think we ought to say that's not our view necessarily David yeah chair thank you um while I still want to formally being on the task and finish group I'll happily pick up the gauntlet if you want me to Martin and talk to the parishes in my patch and see what their highway improvement plans what we know exactly how do they work don't they work I'd happily do that and feed the information into the group if you'd like me to see if there's any help and Charles McConaughey might be the conversation with him perhaps I could give you the the report that was given to Bennett Bennett and annual parish meeting where the counselor responsible for highways plans pretty much said this is the report I gave you last year and this is exactly the same report I'm going to give you this year I've managed to achieve absolutely nothing just following from what Martin said about these small projects cases he will only do something if there's been an EMS or an accident or somebody's died then they'll respond they wait for those accident statistics and then they respond and I don't think that's helpful I'd rather they responded first before the accident yeah can I just ask them on that note can we just what do members think about who to call in when so our next meeting obviously July is a bit short notice and then we've got September so are we suggesting highways we try and call in to the July meeting and then maybe people town and country into September what do we think about that chair well I think is a as an objective that's probably fine we've the practice is what we've got to work on yeah and then I think after we've spoken to highways then we can formulate the tasking finish group to consider the JTP okay are you all happy with that members if we put that into practice okay thank you the next item on the agenda is urgent business is that right there we go there's no urgent business and our next meeting is on Monday the 29th of July thank you very much thank you chair