Transcript

Thank you very much indeed Debbie. Good morning and welcome to East Devon District Council's Asset Management Forum on Monday 17 June 2024 at 9.30am. I'm your chair, Councillor Paul Hayward. I'd also like to welcome anyone watching the meeting via the live stream service. May I respectfully remind members that the Code of Conduct applies throughout this meeting. We also reserve the right to remove and disconnect any participant who has received the message by the meeting by whatever means. Please turn off any telephone devices or put them on silent. Thank you. We'll now start the meeting by doing a roll call of forum members here present and I'll pass over to DSO Debbie Meakin to do that for us. Thanks very much chair. I'll start with yourself please chair, Councillor Hayward. I'm present, thank you. Thank you, Councillor Arnott has given his apologies. Councillor Hawkins please. Present. Thank you, Councillor Young. I don't see on the call so I'll move on to Councillor Olive please. Present. Thank you, I can confirm that you are core at chair. Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed Debbie. So we go straight on to agenda item one, the notes of the previous meeting which was held on 4th March 2024, that's within your agenda pack pages three to six. If anyone has any comment on these notes could you please raise your electronic hand and if I see no hands raised I'll take that as an indication that you all agree the notes of that meeting. And I can see no hands raised from forum members here present so we will take those as read. Thank you very much indeed Debbie. Thank you chair. Agenda item two apologies. We've had the apologies from Councillor Arnott and of course we are missing Councillor Young but he may arrive at some point in the meeting. So agenda item three declarations of interest. If any Councillor has a declaration to make I'll ask you to raise your electronic hand. So this also applies to members, thank you Nick I've seen that, to members who are not on the Asset Management Forum but are here present today. So we have apologies from Councillor Hookway to you first Nick. That's just a simple declaration really. Chair agenda item eight I'm a member of Exmouth Town Council so anything related to Exmouth needs to be noted. Thank you chair. Thank you very much indeed. Ian over to you. Just I'm a member of Exmouth Town Council for anything that comes up and again there are a couple of things. Thank you very much indeed. Councillor Heath, declarations are from the member but I know you are I believe a member of, are you a member of Beer Parish Council? Oh you're muted John. Yes Paul yeah I'm a member of Beer Parish Council. Lovely thank you. I hope you don't mind me giving you a gentle ludge there but just for the purposes of the minutes. Thank you. Thank you. Ollie over to you. Same as Nick, agenda item eight member of Exmouth Town Council. Lovely thank you. And any other mention of Exmouth. For my own part I'll declare an FXNRI for any items that come up later in the meeting primarily I guess in relation to agenda item eight potentially for ten as I'm employed Officer of Actsminster Town Council. But that will be an FXNRI. Thank you Debbie. So I can't see any more here so we now move on to agenda item four public speaking and I'm advised there are no members of the public registered to speak and I can't see the public sort of here on the zoom meeting so are there any members outside of the forum who would wish to speak at this point or do you want to hold your hold your fire till the meeting begins see anyone so that's fine thank you we move on to agenda item five matters of urgency and I don't believe there are any agenda item six which is confidential exempt items and there are no items which officers have recommended to be dealt with in this way so without further ado we go straight to agenda item seven which is the community asset transfer proposal land at Jubilee Gardens Jubilee hard standing including the play park and Beach Court car park pages 7 to 19 of your agenda pack and I'll ask now I have Melanie Whitehead to speak here but can't see is Melanie here oh yes there you are Melanie hello good morning Melanie over to you sorry I was just I was just unmuting I think Rob's actually presenting this one yeah but I am here if there's any questions no problem thank you very much indeed Melanie sorry yeah so morning everybody this this item basically the purpose of of the report is to is to advise AMF of the the application the consultation process so far and to seek the views of AMF as part of the the ongoing consultation before a recommendation is is then taken forward so just as a bit of background this is an application submitted by Bay Parish Council under the the relatively new community asset transfer process the application relates to areas of land at Jubilee hard standing Jubilee Gardens and the Beach Court car park in Bay if you look in the report you can see those all all mapped out as well and under the process the first stage is that the expression of interest is submitted by the the the applicants and the Zener consultation phase which which is undertaken now at the moment that that consultation has been with our our SLT members our ward member our colleagues in street scene parking and engineers and this is the part of the process where we come to AMF to seek members views on on on the the proposal so as you see the in terms of a sort of a recommendation obviously the next steps will be that the report is prepared to the portfolio holder and that will obviously take into account the views of members coming out of this meeting as well as the views that have already been there being being put forward as part of the consultation process so the the three sites you've got are the Jubilee hard standing and play area which is is is detailed at at three point one number one it's a hard standing area and a play area sort of on the cliff top at Beer and for those who who are familiar with the the site there's the Jubilee Gardens which is kind of up above the the hard standing area and then there's the small car park which is just off 4th street in in the middle of Beer so again for people who are recently familiar with Beer you probably have seen it or or know of it the the parish council have submitted the application seeking to to take a transfer of the of the sites for free or minimal cost the section 4 of the report so outlines the the consultation so far so that consultation has been with with officers in in sort of street team parking engineering and and and and you'll see from that that the the initial sort of cost side of it suggests that on a day-to-day basis that the the loss of income from the car park and the the day-to-day sort of maintenance costs that we have largely balance each other out the the some of the other comments within here have raised concerns about the the liability for the cliffs so who would who would ultimately be responsible for that obviously you've got land on top of a cliff who's who's responsible for the cliff which holds up that land on top and and how do you deal with that that sort of ongoing responsibility there's other comments regarding the land around the public toilets which um they're a category of toilets part of the public toilets program um so there's obviously plans to refurbish those so we'd need land around there to be able to to undertake that work but also to to potentially have um have alternative provision while those works are underway um and then there's there's comments regarding the existing um sort of the rnli uh sort of lease up there and uh and and other other agreements um as well as sort of the general ongoing maintenance of shelters and things like that um there's also the final comment was just in terms of the actual legal costs and in in terms of the the transfer so as i said the next steps would be that um that that we take into account views of members um as well as the the officer ones and then um sort of pull together a report um which tim would then take forward um for a decision from portfolio holder um which basically would either seek a detailed business case from the parish council or or not this is sort of the uh the position so um so yeah um i think from that it's uh it'd be interesting to see what views members have on uh on the proposal lovely thank you very much rob um can i bring in um andrew andrew would you be happy to um uh andrew hancock give us some sort of insight as to how your um your department is affected or might be affected by this yeah thank you chair um i suppose i should start off by saying we're broadly in support of this asset transfer and we've been working with uh tim's department for a number of years on on the beer pilot that went beforehand so there's a lot of officer time and information and knowledge that has gone into the wider beer transfer ahead of this latest ask um in the report or in the proposal from beer parish council it talks about the neglect of the site and it's important i think for the forum to note that we haven't neglected it as such because i think that infers a standard of maintenance that has not been met what we have had there is since 2009 due to austerity we've had to reduce the maintenance that we have resources for in that site and so the standard of maintenance has not met what some members in beer parish council would like to see but it's not neglect because we haven't failed to meet our maintenance schedule if that makes sense but i think that point is important to raise because it speaks to this transfer doesn't it if beer parish council want to invest more resources to maintain the site at a higher standard then you know that's laudable and something we should support there's a few things just to note from street scenes perspective and the detail i suppose that would come up in the business plan should we take this forwards so in those semi-wild woodland areas now we need to think about the biodiversity we need to involve our district ecologist in terms of bat forage and roosts associated with the beer quarry caves designation there we've got some health and safety issues with banks and the cliff edge that beer parish council in maintaining would need to set out their risk assessments in terms of how they would address that you can't just put staff in close proximity to the cliff edge without appropriate equipment and training as rob's already highlighted there's the retaining walls and the cliffs to to consider i think that that point might have been conceded in the previous beer pilot work and it might be right members might feel it's right that east devon retains that rely that responsibility and that liability but it's just worth highlighting that if we transfer the asset and retain the higher maintenance costs there we need to go in eyes open to that and then the final two areas i just wanted to highlight were the cost so we've got an estimate of about 15 000 annually for our grounds maintenance costs there but the team that service beer also service parts of the axe valley and seaton so we can't just make that we can't deliver that saving for east devon directly because it's tied up in a team that services elsewhere so whilst technically that maintenance cost is lost east devon district council still retains that that salary cost for the team now there's an issue i've been talking to andy wood about in terms of demand and growth and capacity within the team so we might be able to absorb that and use that to pick up uh demand growth elsewhere but it doesn't provide us with a net saving in that regard and the final point is around events and the expression of interest from the parish council touches on this both within the jubilee and charlie's yard commercial and community events we've got um an agreement at the moment with birch parish council whereby they book the events but our events team do the administration of it to to check that they're safe and administered correctly and if we move forward to this we'll need to have an sla in that regard so that both parties are clear on their responsibilities and liabilities any events and any commercial activities are controlled appropriately i think that's everything that i wanted to cover thank you paul thank you very much indeed andy for that appreciate that um if i may now john can i bring you in um as both board member and the representative of um their parish council to to give us effectively the other side of the equation uh that'd be very helpful if you can yeah certainly paul well firstly these um eight um outcomes um consultation with relevant council services the parish council have asked me um to um hold off on whether to adopt or not adopt them so they can consider the outcomes of the consultation with relevant you know um council services however i have been um advised of some things and if we go through each point i don't think it'll take too long um this is the um provisional view of the parish council so it was not the set view it's not the confirmed view but the provisional view and first the number one um beachport car park the proposal is to transfer beachport car park to the parish council and we understand that edc will continue to manage this car park for which the parish council will pay edc's costs hence including the net income figures the parish council be responsible for signs lines surfacing boundary repairs etc and this will estimate to generate the parish council 12 000 pounds in year one and going on to point three the cost of maintenance lost the car park income for avoidance of doubt the parish council asked me to raise the following the beach so due to complexities around the day-to-day management and because of regular regularization of agreements being needed but this does generate commercial income the parish council are at this stage not prepared to accept this liability but we need to be clear whether we're talking about the cliff faces or the land on the jubilee going down to the edge of the cliff because that that is a dichotomy there that needs to be looked at there is a this is a concern to edc and has been worked through at length and has now been accepted by officers as part of this wider asset transfer we obviously um in terms of beach court car park that's the smallest of the three car parks the major car park generation is central car park behind the dolphin and be a head car park um and the prerequisites for transfer that's under number four um if the jubilee gardens and play area to transfer um assets to be transferred must be in a serviceable condition with no serious outstanding defects unknown health and safety issues will be dealt with by edc prior to handover at the cost of the council this might be by undertaking works prior to transfer or attaching a financial sum for the parish council to implement but it has not been made clear that this will be a large sum or not and will not allow before it's identified as needed in the short term future something which previously has been requested by the parish council there is therefore a further less quantifiable saving to edc in essence of some building components are broken it will be repaired but anything that is dated or in a poor condition but functionally adequate evil not i don't think there's an issue about the toilets that's point five um and number six the rnli concession and maintenance of the shelters um the memorial play area is subject to a way leave to southwest water of the pumping station below and the jubilee gardens access hard standing viewpoint includes income received currently of 700 pounds per annum from the rni and the jubilee gardens but for the avoidance of doubt the cliff is excluded and finally number eight um the opening up of the jubilee gardens repair maintenance and renewal of the fencing at the top of the cliff along the remaining boundaries will be the responsibility of be a parish council plus repair and maintenance of the railings from lookout areas including the beach the thing is i just had really that obviously um east devon owns the beach and that's quite a considerable revenue generator from um you know rents for the three um cafes and for the boat owners um so i think that's i don't think considering climate change and the way that the um cliff is the cliff faces would be would be considered you know to be relevant at this stage to the parish council but i can't speak fully on their behalf i'm just giving you the initial provisional views because we have to go back and obviously we have to discuss um you know these consultations does that help it does john thank you very much indeed um before i open it out to members um from my own perspective obviously as as a clerk to a council i would if i were advising my members i'd be in a similar situation i no doubt to your clock john um and giving sort of advice as best as it's worth on you know the the liabilities and the future prospects for the site but obviously with my other hat on in this this economic economy and assets role i have to obviously consider it from eastern district council's perspective too so it's it's quite a challenge for me personally um so before i take it out to uh members uh tim you want to come in on this yeah thank you thank you chair morning members um just yeah i just want to come back on a couple of points if that's okay so um various references have been made to the cliff and the condition of the cliff and who would or would not be responsible for the cliff um whilst the focus has been on the financial risks that go with being responsible for the cliff i think it's also just worth flagging the sort of the operational practical um implications as well um whilst the district council um own jubilee it is within our gift to close sections off um if they become unsafe due to due to um cliff failure um i think we just need to be very mindful and there are ways around this i'm not suggesting there aren't but we just need to be very mindful if we were to go ahead with the transfer and retain responsibility for the cliffs but there would need to be um some shared working with the parish council over over what would happen if for example the cliff did become unsafe and parts of jubilee particularly the hard standing area had to be had to be taken out of use um the the the second item i just wanted to come in on quickly please is the condition at transfer um council i think what i think the a lot of the wording that the parish council have given you i think probably came from the wording that we'd given them in relation but to the toilet building so specific really to the toilet building um regarding it being in a serviceable condition etc etc so so i think in terms of the condition at transfer this were to go ahead we just need to obviously look at it on the basis of the types of assets being transferred and what is reasonable to both to both parties but i think the wording you used was probably quite specific to the toilets which obviously aren't included at this stage and thank you char i think they were just the two two bits i just wanted to come back in on just to clarify really thank you thank you tim um i'm just before we go into forum discussion uh from the forum members here are there any members of council present who'd like to make a contribution here i'd love to hear from you thank you so much um yeah there seems to be a um almost a fear from both sides about taking this on for various responsibilities and everything have you looked at a long-term lease or um you know a full repair ring like you would in the commercial sector do a lease that at the end of the day gives beer parish council the control that it wants um that they can show how they want to look after it how they can do it without actually causing all the legal uh wrangling obligations trying to get it written down in the right way of of you know should something go wrong with something in the future now at the end of the day a smaller parish council will no doubt be able to um um perhaps get better um value for money because they don't have the overheads that you know andrew has with his team with all the computer backs up and the back office people that they've got and at the end of the day might be able to deliver something better and maybe able to squeeze a little bit more money out of it but if you set a lease for whatever money you think you're going to lose as the rate that they would pay you're you're talking about sort of a maximum of making five thousand pound out of this i you know i just think that you could charge them a small release every year to do this put them on it they could have a get out clause you could have a get out clause you know and it would be a lot easier to write something up without going into the who's responsible for what and should the land collapse on that land you know it's a minefield legally that you're saying you're going to be tied up and it's going to cost you a fortune whereas a lease would be an awful lot easier to write it can be adapted it can be changed to suit the situation but it would give big council the control that it wants to see if they can deliver things better which again would make more sense for you stephan because of course that actually is is part of our part of our remit is to improve the lives of everyone including the people in beer i suppose that that proposal sort of it goes against the principle of what we're discussing which is an asset transfer proposal based on a policy but again do officers any officers want to uh respond john do you want to come back on that that sort of suggestion comment from uh council barlow well i think um ian's comments have some merit but i can't see how it would work in principle but it could certainly and depending on what the officer's advice is it could go before the parish council as a proposal but we we need to be governed by what is realistic and what is achievable here i'm a little bit dubious as to i see that i see that what ian is saying but i'm dubious as to whether that will actually work um in fact and i think just to say that obviously the income from beach court car park balances out the outgoings on maintaining the jubilee gardens i just want to say one more thing um because i don't want to monopolize this meeting at all actually but the jubilee gardens is be as jewelled in the crown and it's very very important for tourism because people do it is a focal point of the village um and i understand from what um andrew is saying the challenge is in maintaining it but it you can't you can't cut you can't have half a haircut you either have to somehow deal with those slopes the lower slopes in particular and have a balanced rewilding process so the top part of the jubilee it's so big can be rewarded with wild flower meadows but the lower part which overlooks the jubilee hard standing particularly for events does need to be maintained and i understand those slopes are a serious issue regarding health and safety but is not unachievable for if you like the volunteers from beer parish council but is less achievable i would suggest from the the officers who have to comply with their health and safety regs thanks paul thank you john um for any members who haven't been to the site i would heartily recommend you go one because it's just a beautiful beautiful vista out across the sea it's absolutely gorgeous um i was fortunate to go uh be taken around by john's predecessor uh the previous ward member and yes you know andrew and rob have made valid points it's a very challenging site i think by the time i climbed all the way to the top of it and gone around the sort of the back and through the den i needed an ice cream and a bag of chips uh by the time i finished um andrew over to you sorry chairs just just briefly to come back on council heath's point and i understand exactly where he's coming from and if you've got more money and resources yes it's not beyond the wit of man to get those areas cut we're limited with the resources we have and the equipment we have point of note for us if we transfer this asset to bear parish council is beer parish council will have the same health and safety safety liabilities as we have for those volunteers so you can't shirk those responsibilities or ignore them they they do need to be addressed through through risk assessment thank you thank you andrew um i i i'd like to i know i can't speak for but i'd like to speak for the clerk of the parish council uh who would who'd be well aware of that but it's a point well made andrew thank you very much indeed um so um i'll now bring it back inside forum members um for those who are present um we have some recommendations obviously uh one two three but um members of the forum thoughts on this um generally in favor not what's what's your views i'd like to be very grateful to hear from you who wants to go first you've got a smile on your face sam i can see you want to say something go on go for it sorry i was struggling with the it here um at the moment it seems to be just uh do we want to take on to the next step rather than actually making a decision today i think there's been enough support on both sides to warrant actually there is something here to go further obviously there's some bits we need to bottom out but that's the point of a business case um so i think yeah let's support it take it forward get the business case work out all those niggly points around the different issues and see if actually we can get something out to the community to control how they want to control it rather than how we can afford to control it which aren't necessarily the same thing thank you sam which in essence is the very principle of why we created the cat proposal in the first place it's about you know community ownership um todd do you want to come in with anything oh i saw you there a minute ago are you having some it issues yes bear with us everyone i think tod may be turning it off and turning it on again uh richard while we're waiting for tod do you want to come in yeah it was just um i i mean i haven't visited the site but i do know it um no of it and i was listening to the uh the bit about uh street scene not realizing the full saving by uh just chopping off one bit because you can't get to the other the other areas and that still needs to be serviced is can can does this leave space to be more ambitious with the transfer in terms of other assets that could could be transferred over to community ownership and therefore achieve those savings for street scene so there was some other things that weren't uh they weren't going down to be able to to sort out that could be done locally as well um you mean sort of like uh an opportunity cost of the staff aren't working there they can be put elsewhere for greater gain i mean i i hesitate always to say anything about toilets but um if we we as edc that the toilets are still sitting with edc whilst the rest is being transferred i don't i always always hesitate to get involved in what what the uh what's happening with the toilets but things like the toilets is there a is there a thing which which could give more benefits to both sides by having control of all things rather than a bit of a bit of both and other more opportunities within that and do we leave the door open for more opportunities as part of this process ongoing so we're not making a decision today but look exploring other things which maybe could be added in thank you for that rich i know i mean i can see uh andrew and tim want to come back i know from previous meetings of this forum this this inevitably comes up because there is this belief that you know by not cutting something you save the money you don't as andrew has said but the staff are still employed they've still got to have ppe vehicles pension contributions um the opportunity saving comes from they can be utilized elsewhere they can bolster other teams they can do other things you can you can cut more or cut longer um but yeah there is no cash saving uh and in this case it's a cash loss because we're no longer getting revenue for the car part but that's why the cat was created to look at these wider issues it's not just about pounds and pence it's a more dare i say holistic approach but um and andrew do you want to come back on on council jeffrey's point thanks chair um yes i mean the short answer is yes we can we can do this given enough time and the previous beer pilot did look at a greater um take a greater red line of asset transfer but even then we still had the same issue in that day one we've got those employment costs so we need a try a phasing where we pass over those services and responsibilities and in the previous beer asset transfer we were looking at a five-year period whereby each year we would have a sort of agreed schedule of reduction of what east evan maintained and did and what beer parish council took up so that that's something we we could do uh in a wider transfer or within this transfer and then i mentioned at the earlier in the meeting that we've also got demand growth elsewhere we've got growing property numbers growing tourism and that's putting more pressure on the teams so i know that at some point in the near future i'm going to have to bring an additional resources paper to council uh and and so we can reutilize the the saving whilst it's not a full fte elsewhere in the seaton and axe valley area thank you thank you andrew tim thank you chair just two things um firstly so so reference has been made about um something bigger could this be something bigger well of course and and i think it's just worth flagging to members because i'm conscious that for as officers andrew and i know an awful lot around that the former beer pilot proposals but probably as members you're you're relatively unfamiliar with it but um what i would say is that yeah so historically we had for a number of years been exploring quite a significant asset transfer across across beer um consisting of the sites we're talking about today but also many others many others that were much more complex so um in terms of a sort of a potential journey starting somewhere and then given the opportunity if it works for the parish council to take on other assets um from an officer perspective this does seem a in terms of types of assets it does seem a a good opportunity um to start um and and it's really where if the parish council were to then um find successes through this asset transfer if that's route we go down and took on other assets within the town i think that's when it could really sort of have more sort of an impact in terms of eddc for the reasons for the reasons andrew has just explained and then the the second point if i could just pick up please is um if we look specifically at recommendation one um it is that amf notes the report and offers its thoughts on the application at the meeting as part of the consultation process so that's really really key so just to be clear to everyone the consultation process is well advanced the the responses to the consultation are included within the report but the debate at today's meeting is part of that consultation and will then inform that officer recommendation to councillor haywood as portfolio holder so i'm really keen if there are specific um specific thoughts that want to be put forward and formally noted from this meeting that we do so and then we can factor it all into the bigger equation and in particular on that point picking up on councillor balo's suggestion regarding regarding a lease is that i suppose question to the forum is that something that that that um the forum would like officers to consider as part of this consultation stage along with any other thoughts thank you tim um todd just before i come to you i've got you back on the screen i'm just gonna ask councillor heath just to uh uh just pop in again and then i'll come to you todd yeah thanks paul um the original asset transfer by my predecessor and by the previous iteration of be a parish council was to take on a much bigger portfolio as as tim is well aware of we've whittled it down subsequently to three which you're well aware of through this consultation document and that's beach court car park the jubilee hard standing which includes the rnli hut and stuff like that and the play park and the jubilee gardens and i think that is where we're coming in from and obviously the income from the beach court car park will balance the jubilee the outcomes or the maintenance and upkeep of the jubilee standing at the jubilee gardens we've looked at the toilets and i don't think that the revenue generation even if we balance up with the maintenance costs it's not a great deal in it but i think we would want we would be quite happy in principle for the toilets to remain under the auspices of eddc kind of makes sense but they are due to be upgraded next year which i think officers know about and that will obviously make a difference in terms of the lowering it should be more efficient to maintain them and also the cost should be more um realistic as well thanks paul thank you very much john appreciate that um todd oh sorry i sorry todd ian can you be again just a brief yeah very brief just about leases just in case again i don't want john or anyone to think this is a short-term way to get out of it you can do leases for whatever length of time you want with get out clauses on which the other side to protect parties so you know it is it's it you could some of them are called flying freeholds so it's it's exact almost exactly the same for what you get and again i would certainly um look at the toilets if um i was given the chance about it um especially if they give you the money that they're about to spend on them john but anyway that's up to you thank you ian so uh so todd i'll come back to you oh we can't hear you todd you're unmuted now yes we can yes okay there we go todd beats the tech um i i so i wanted to come back to the um cliff issue for a second um because of course we've got another um issue elsewhere with another one of our assets in the district um a couple of miles further west down the down the coast um where we've got it's not quite the same situation it's not a community asset transfer but where we've got commercial tenants um with a lease that's immediately behind a coastal asset of ours that we're now having to spend uh millions of pounds shoring up uh to protect somebody else's asset basically um and i i really really wouldn't want to see us getting into the same situation here i appreciate it's um a slightly different situation insofar as we're considering uh an asset transfer to a parish council of of a fundamentally a community attraction and it's it's not a you know it's not like we're talking about a profit generating asset going to a commercial entity um but i'd be i i'd be concerned and reluctant about seeing any form of asset transfer of jubilee gardens without a resolution of um how we deal with those cliffs without the answer being just east evan bears all the cost um because to be honest that that that's not fair to our ratepayers elsewhere in the district um if we've been totally frank um so that's that's my tuppence otherwise i have no problems at all with um it moving forwards to the next stage okay thank you very much todd um so i can't see any other hands up no obviously i'm i'm slightly constrained here myself because any any report would come back to me to um to consider um so uh tim has outlined so the recommendation one is that amf notes the reports opposite sports and i think we we've had a quite a healthy debate and some thoughts have gone to officers about you know forum members views and parish council views and other councilors views as part of the consultation process so i think we can say that recommendation one has been done recommendation two the amf notes that following completion of this consultation is still ongoing that in accordance with the procedure officers will make a recommendation to portfolio holder for economy and assets myself on whether the applicant should be invited to submit business case now we've had two forum members say that they believe that's a worthwhile process and could um produce some results for the parish and for east evan district council um so i think officers can take that as a positive from item two and item three is that we know that the applicant this application does not progress officers will contact the parish council to discuss their proposals and identify whether there is scope for a collaborative approach to achieve some of their objectives set out in the eio and i think that's a given if it doesn't get that far then obviously there's always other things can be done um so from forum members present sam and tod and myself are we happy to uh if i propose from the chair that uh recommendations one to three are acceptable to us are you happy with that approach yeah lovely thank you very much thank you to all officers who participated and contributed we do appreciate that and i think that's a positive outcome and we can move forwards on those recommendations thank you very much indeed so uh we now go to agenda item eight a place of prosperity team update now i uh i obviously had uh some notes here that it would be allison i don't think allison is here so um andy are you standing in or is that for him it will be me chair and didn't come in if he likes at any point but um allison has primed me to um to pick up this report so um it's it's quite a um as is often the case with these team update reports so so yeah this is the first of three team update reports that we're now moving on to in the agenda um i think the report is fairly self-explanatory we pick up on some of the key projects um taking place within that within the place and prosperity team we do however particularly for this report for the place and prosperity team need to be really really mindful a lot of work that they do is is is commercially sensitive so that does impact on what can and what can't go into this into this public report but if i just sort of highlight a couple of the key of the key um points so um in terms of a depot review the work is largely complete so as you'll recall we've been working probably for the last i'd say nine or twelve months with external consultants pulling together proposals on how we can ensure we are depot provision moving forward is fit for purpose and it's not just just a reminder to members it's not just our street scene depots it's also linking into for example any space that countryside might occupy but also linking in our recycling center out at Greendale so it covers all of it and it's to set out a sort of a blueprint on what it is we as an authority need moving forward i can warn you now it will come with quite hefty price tags so um so um we are anticipating a final report later this month with it then coming through allison says to cabinet in september i think in reality with the august recess it will be sort of i suspect it will be into the autumn in all honesty but over the course of the next couple of months um the next update from allison was around the drill hall and in particular the toilet element of that members will probably be aware that that is going to planning committee tomorrow with an officer recommendation for approval if planning consent is then granted that then satisfies the conditions within the agreement for lease and and the natural course of events then follow with rockfish still keen to do the necessary building works this winter to ensure that the restaurant already a couple of years late can open ready for next for the next summer season um moving on down i think the feasibility studies ukspf feasibility study section is self-explanatory we're obviously working with sidmouth town council um who themselves are leading on on the project and sigma for around youth provision using the spf funding through through the district council and then in exmouth that's a project that we will be leading on ourselves in this current financial year using the existing the existing allocation um which is 35k um we've also there was a slight underspend elsewhere so we've managed to link that in so it's actually it's nearer a figure about 45k in exmouth and that ties in neatly with the work that we're doing in terms of the placemaking plan the next item that allison updates on is the um the the seaton and axminster employment sites and i think it's probably worth also against that one just referencing back to hayne lane um the committee will be very aware that the report came on hayne lane previously um i suppose the obvious question is why the delay with with these reports so um i suppose we've gone back to basics a little on them we've sort of been going around and around with the same issues um which focus on viability to a greater or lesser degree on each of these sites um we've since the last amf meeting we've worked much more closely with economic development colleagues and with planning colleagues and with andy now in post as interim director and a dedicated place directorate i think this now gives i think this does now give us the opportunity to sort of look at these sites much more sort of holistically look link it back to the council plan and what we've committed to in the council plan um and and look at what across services we can do to make a site that today hasn't been deliverable deliverable and i suppose the what i one sort of key phrase i want to pick up on which is included within the council plan is growth dividend value as a percentage of investment and if we are going to make any of these sites work we need to take that much bigger picture it can't just be bound to property viability we need to consider growth we need to consider employment we need to consider business rates we need to look at that much much bigger model so um andy and i and jerry and other officers have all have already in the last literally the last couple of weeks since andy took up posts been having discussions around that so we have a a clear way forward to consider these sites in a very different way with much more of an emphasis around depth and growth so yeah i probably that's that's in essence i need you to explain i suppose why you've not got those reports back today so reports will be coming forward but we have had to go back to the drawing board but really to make sure that we explore all possible opportunities rather than taking what could be seen as the easier option but arguably not the best option for east devon district council and for our residents and businesses of putting these props some of these sites back onto the market and allowing someone else to deliver so so i've done you might think it's a bit of waffle around that but hopefully that sort of explains where we are with that and there will be reports coming forward and i i strongly suspect they will take a slightly different direction than perhaps we've been considering previously and then the very final update um from allison was on seaton morrow dunham and um there's a reference there to a report coming to 10th of july cabinet that was correct at the time of drafting of this report by allison but that date has been put back because we're looking at a couple of a couple of different options there but the report has been drafted and has been passed our executive leadership team okay um i think that's all of the projects so i'm happy on allison's behalf to take questions and you'll note from the recommendation that it is merely to note the content of the report thank you thank you very much indeed tim um just before i um bring in uh ian um andy i obviously i appreciate you and i uh had a chat about this uh particularly the um employment issues and also had a chat with rob murray as well are you happy would you be able to give a few words to the forum just about your take on this in your new role yeah thank you chair um so yeah it's fascinating for me so for as long as i can remember in terms of kind of working in the southwest there's always been this challenge of market failure whereby we know that um you know if small employment units are delivered in our market in coastal towns for example they're invariably full you know they provide a really important source of local employment and yet if you looked at it just in terms of the figures usually um the the bill costs you know um doesn't you know you know outstrips the rent so to speak and that's the market failure so we know there's usually full occupancy indeed our own estate talks to that um so trying to crack that issue and take a very rounded appreciation as tim has said of what is is this about return on investment are we looking for a particular yield or are we looking to deliver social value wider employment opportunities such if we left it purely to the market the market would just go around the kind of west end it would be big logistics buildings and clearly we want something that's much more diversified much more attuned to local need as well so that's the conversation we've been having what can we do to craft those proposals uh in conjunction with the place and prosperity fund as well and what if we take that as you say um as tim says that wider kind of growth dividend look and including other factors like business rates what what can we make to happen in that space does that make sense chair it does indeed thank you very much andy um ian uh you first and then over to nick thank you chair um fascinating to hear that the last bit there i think it's a very good thing i do suggest that you just lease the land to people and let the businesses put their own buildings up because at the end of the day um i'm sorry sir but they probably will do it cheaper and and quicker and deliver it because i know people certainly in seaton that are desperate for business small units that they would um happily pay good rent for um uks pf um please be study similar rights thank you for the money um we did our survey um and it has helped us make decisions difficult decisions which we are about to take or have taken now to knock down our youth club um and close it close it i saw that article in the press this morning and i'm delighted it's on here and obviously the chance to talk to you about it because on paper it seems you know these sort of things that people would get up in arms about but obviously there's a rationale behind it well again we've had to obviously slowly um or carefully word it and we will all take some flack we know we're going to take some flat we took it on 10 years ago from devon council it was a building that was put up in the 70s that had a 20-year lifespan um so it's it's well lived that um it's got asbestos in it it's got other issues with it um and it's also got to the point where it's it's just cannot be you know it's cost us 45 000 pound last year to keep it going and we've built up a fund to try and rebuild it so we're now deciding after the um consultation that we did with the money you gave us um sort of found out whether we want to just put it there or whether we want to spread the youth services throughout the town in different places uh answering what the the um the youth actually have said they want so anyway that's going on um question is um the council has now progressed the legal agreements with rockfish and should the planning application be approved in due course the lease for rockfish will commence does that mean that there it hasn't commenced yet and does that mean that if the planning doesn't pass tomorrow does that mean that this will um what can come back to the council i'm just a little bit concerned that we're we have done this deal as you know i was never happy about the deal i remain um with the town council that although this is an improvement on the area it is far from what we could have got should have got um again in our opinion uh it's not good for rockfish they're going to end up with a restaurant with a 1.3 meter that's just over four foot wall all the way around it that they will have a seafood restaurant on the seafront but without sea view because at the end of the day they're going to be sat behind the wall and with a little bit more thought we could have put the changing places extra toilets etc down there and can i also confirm most importantly that we have been led to believe and told right from the start that the two toilets that rockfish are supplying will be maintained and run cleaned etc by them going forward thank you tim are you happy to respond to council's questions yeah thank you so the first question around the sort of the contractual side so there's an agreement for lease which as you'd explore it's an agreement for lease not a lease um so it's conditional on various elements and obviously planning is a key condition which will hopefully be resolved tomorrow um the second um question was in terms of ongoing maintenance cleaning etc um and would it be rockfish yes it will be rockfish at their expense thank you tim thank you ian for your questions and for your contribution do appreciate that nick right sorry thank you chair yeah um just um really putting the flag up in terms of the the depo's review about camperdown terrorist depot um in terms of tourism i think that's a very uh important site excuse me um i'm speaking really in terms of pacemaking and um the tourism aspect really not as a world member uh that site is very well situated in respect of the marina for those businesses that operate in the marine environment and it's probably the last site in the town that could offer any form of development for those businesses who wish to um supply the marine environment the marine marine economy and so on so um i just really want to put out a flag there really that at that uh that's an important site clearly it will go to place making into course um it's a pity the port's been delayed fair enough um but look forward to reading that but uh we need to be very uh mindful of the uh opportunities uh that the camper down derris site could offer and that's what i'm going to say today thank you very much thank you nick um andy i saw your message no problem at all if you need to leave please just disappear um yes well nick you and i have had discussions and i've been with tim with allison and i think we all accept that in a place like exmouth where is so constrained in terms of land you know arguably any any town having a big pad just for a depot of vehicles come and go and they park up and do that so and that's the essence of this depot review is is to look at better use of land that can provide more uh economic benefit more tourist benefit more financial benefit social benefit than just a concrete pad because effectively you can build a concrete pad anywhere subject planning consent um so thank you very much nick again you and i have had discussions in exmouth about this very thing um so thank you for raising that in this forum um so uh for members sam todd um from what you've heard uh are there any contributions you'd like to make to this or are you happy to uh note the report as provided um and we just uh and obviously leave it with me to progress with officers to get these things chugging along um with the new focus as tim suggested yeah nods there that's cool okay so uh agenda item nine uh the estates team update uh the second of our three reports and this is from rob rob back to you thank you um yeah it's just a quick run through um of some of the things that we've been dealing with lately in the estates team um so um the starting off um obviously demand remains good across our portfolio i think we've we've highlighted one area of concern which is the the eastern business center where um we've got some sort of a number of vacant offices and obviously um uh as a result sort of falling income so um there's also we've been using space within there um for um for the council's sort of uh functions and things like that so so it's part of the ongoing accommodation strategy obviously we'll need to give consideration to to to that sort of use and and then strategies in terms of improving occupancy at the at the business center to uh to to sort of improve our income levels on that one um we've um got an item on the uh the kiosk at bodily sold and um this was destroyed in the storms um sort of uh just before christmas and um it's been quite a quite a challenging one in terms of of getting some sort of replacement offering in place so um there's a number of issues there in terms of um the the planning position in terms of of sort of putting something new in in place of the one that was destroyed obviously um the the very fact that it was destroyed by a storm presents you with a flood risk challenge and such like so so there's issues around that side of it but also um we don't own the site so it's it's a leasehold site so obviously we're working with the with the the landlords in in terms of clinton devon estates um and the existing tenants to try and find something that's not only workable for us workable for them um and uh and obviously acceptable in in planning terms and uh and landowner terms as well so quite a quite an array of uh of issues with that one but uh it's it's an ongoing process and something that uh that the team have been been doing all they can to try and get uh get a set of a resolution to um we've um we've successfully marketed the um the vacant site at durham way in honington which is a a compound site um which um we'd had issues there with a retaining wall which has collapsed and stuff like that so and that's been reinstated and and re-lit um so that's going to be uh going to be a use for for storage space which um hopefully will be a good addition to to that little uh little pocket of sites um and we've got uh we've got vacant units at riverside workshops for the first time in quite a while so um so that um they're going to be going to be marketed going forwards and um we'd hope to get uh get a reasonable level of interest for those they're um they're always relatively popular units um in terms of uh of what they offer and the location of them so um so yeah we'll be taking forward a marketing exercise with with those two units there um and um there's a we've had another category uh sorry uh community asset transfer uh approach um so this is this time from the second cricket known tennis club um so um in the same ways we we we brought the the b1 forwards today um at a future amf meeting obviously we'll do the same sort of exercise once the consultation process is advanced uh to a stage where we can we can seek sort of amf views on it before taking taking a recommendation to portfolio holder um and then just to finish off there's a just an update on the the long-running um sort of workload uh position um again it's relatively uh relatively positive which um just um just highlights so for the the past year there's been quite a quite a significant sort of inroads made in the um in the overall sort of number of cases which just means people have got more time to to focus on on getting things done rather than constantly reacting to um to things right you know you can actually prioritize work and uh and focus on the things that are important to do so i'm happy to take any questions if there are any no thank you rob are any questions from outside the forum council barlow yeah thank you um a couple of things first of all obviously the east ebb and business center this isn't the first time this has been brought up that we're in decline there that we might have issues there um you say consideration will need to be given when will that start and um you know when when do you hope or have you already got plans to how you're going to improve on that um and just on the bubbly one again you're talking about a lease there usually if for no fault of your own the lease is not um able to be carried on you can just walk away are we are we considering that are we still paying rent on that or or what is the situation there please thank you i'll come to tim i think on the second point there's obviously some commercial confidentiality there because there is a uh a tenant um uh tim do you want to respond to either of those points and then sam you've got your hand up yeah thanks i'll respond to the first point please the business center if rob is able to respond at all um on the second matter i'll leave rob to do so um business center so there's an accommodation strategy that our executive leadership team have asked me to lead on that is um beginning to come to a close now should be with our executive leadership team in the next month that accommodation strategy focuses on exmouth town hall and black down house but it is for it it is very much pushing to bringing everything back into those offices and not using the business center the business center was only an interim arrangement last summer we needed the space then if we make better use of black down house now my argument is that we don't need that space and it goes back to what was the business center set up for it was a set up for and funded for in fact to help small businesses and providing flexible office space so it was only an interim measure and the accommodation review will be the in my view will be the tool that then sort of brings that to an end thank you tim and that there's a wider issue there but of course you know since that was developed and it's been there quite a few years the world of serviced offices and such like has changed the world of works changed so taking your point counts the barlow yeah i think this is a in the interim we keep on you know pushing the accommodation if people want it we can negotiate with them but in the long term i think there has to be a review and this is what our um our asset group is looking at is the assets we have are they making money are they losing money and is there a future for them and then we'll discuss that in a granular level when we do um rob we are you able to come back on the second point um yeah um so in terms in terms of the body um site um so so our leasehold interest um is is much wider than just the just the kiosk site so obviously it's it's it's the whole beach essentially so you know we probably wouldn't walk away from our leasehold interests but it's um in terms of the you know we're trying to work with the you know the existing tenant um with a view to to try and have some sort of provision there locally um it seems that there is uh there is demand for for an offering in that sort of location so it's it's weighing up the options looking at whether there's any potential alternatives um and um and what sort of um you know what sort of restraints there might be in terms of planning and and things like that that we need to to factor in does it have to be seasonal does it is it something that we're going to need to have something more robust there you know what what what's really going to work um rather than um than than than just kind of walking away from it and saying well that's it it's gone it's gone you know we're we're trying to find explore every every avenue before we you know if that if that is the ultimate then that's the ultimate but the bottom line we're trying to find an alternative because there does seem to be good demand um um locally for for that provision in that that sort of location is that okay thank you rob appreciate that sam over to you thanks um apologies to tim i got distracted during the answer about e7 business center so if you've touched on this tell me um just picking up on that point around the the office space utilization understand in exeter appreciates different market that grossly exit is oversubscribed but it's looking at the right type of office space um i don't know if a similar exercise has been done looking at hana and then x and he's telling is it is it more we've got there isn't a demand for office space or is it there is the demand it's just not the type of office space we're offering tim yeah i just need to be slightly mindful in my response that this is obviously a public meeting but um i think what i can say is that um across but so so we've seen in the last year or two our housing service move much more into black down house so whilst we still have a um a reception facility during certain hours at xmouth town hall and we still have key staff at xmouth to respond to members of the public when they come in um a lot of those sort of housing back office functions are now based in black down house so that has then created a scenario whereby we have lots of vacant space at xmouth town hall but it has also created a um a situation whereby we have a real shortage of space at black down house but that is it is more around how we use the space bearing in mind um initially if you go back to pre-covid we had more than enough office space for for for for everyone um and most people it seems bizarre talking about now most people were coming in four if not five days a week so the space is there it's just how we use the space and i'm looking at for example utilizing hot desking arrangements and similar and just looking at how we can make best use of space rather than for example in black down house having a team who sit in a particular place in the building who might be in one or two days a week and then for the other three days a week that space sitting largely empty so it's about how we use the space thanks for hawkins is that okay sam yes thanks i think it i mean it echoes two other reports that you and i have seen for other buildings elsewhere in the district primarily to the west in that they're having to assess the market because the market dictates the market doesn't want to rent the space um then you either change the space the layout the the services or you um you you take some of the measures so uh thank you for that um i can't see any other hands up um todd anything you want to add on this no okay well if i in that case i'll propose from the chair that we note the report thank you very much indeed rob for that and to your colleague and we then move to agenda item 10 the property and fm team update um is george with us he is hello morning oh hello yes i'm here good morning morning all uh thank you um this report is um the usual report that we we put uh um in for the forum um is a simple report it's just an update on what we've been up to um this one is a little bit longer um because i think we had um we didn't report in the last forum or the last one was cancelled so we're covering about six months both of work so you can see over there it is it is quite um quite a bit of um data from uh basically the work we've we've been doing so the first part of the report deals with uh plan and compliance okay then the item three uh sorry item four goes into into the reactive work okay and and basically further further down we we just um update on the on the capital work that that we've been doing okay um there is there is obviously um somewhere that we've we've included here in terms of the capital work uh we're now reporting on the on the on the toilets and also on the decarbonization as well uh works as well um in terms of the the main thing for the decarbonization we had we put another bit in back in uh when was that i think it was late april early june um to get some funding to appoint basically consultants to to help us with with figuring out what we need to do so that was um that was a bid for about 300 um 300 000 pounds okay and uh we are waiting to hear the results of that in july okay so that's that's pretty much it um also at the very end i've got a um section over there about cost okay the budget how we've um we've spent it and uh and i also included a comparison to last year's uh budget as well so basically uh that covers 2022 23 and 2023 24 so you can see over there that our budget is is not covering what we're spending uh and then it's basically the the rate of what we're spending is a lot higher than the rate as the the budget is going up basically um so that's that's pretty much all there again the same sort of message it's usually led properties where we spend most of the money okay but also uh toilets okay so those are the really big two spenders in in our budget okay so that's that's pretty much the report over there if you have any questions i will be more than happy to answer them thank you um just before i i do put a question to you if i may um counselor collins good good morning nice to see you um have you any decorations you need to make i appreciate we're we're pretty much at the end of the uh your meeting um i can see you on the screen but you have you any decorations you want to make council collins no no thank you sorry i'm late no problem at all can i just say if i may you know it's a public meeting that's that's a very very very good beard and but i'm sure i saw you two days ago you were quite an incredible achievement well done um so welcome anyway to the meeting um so yeah on the um on page 48 you do obviously mention that maintenance spend at public toilets is almost twice that budgeted for is there a particular reason why there's been this spike in in toilet maintenance costs is it vandalism is it uh just just ongoing things cost you know inflation or it's it's just ongoing ongoing um cost really um we have we have a situation where some of the for example the the units that are hand they do they hand wash the salt dispensing and also the drying uh there are there are wall gate units and uh and these are pretty much obsolete now okay so we've had we've had to spend some money because the uh wall gate are refusing now to continue maintaining them because they they cannot they cannot and basically what they're trying to do they're trying to sell us new units but we don't want to buy them because we're about to basically redo all the toilets and then we will have new units over there so we don't really want to invest that money so we've been what we've been doing we've been changing those into just the standard hand wash hand wash basings with uh with a separate um air truck and dryer and that of course it's a lot less than than replacing the unit but still it is a cost uh and you know things like that that you know it is it is basically because the toilets are basically old and naked really okay so we we have to to spend my money repairing them and keeping them going basically thank you technical technical maintenance term um over to you thank you chair um yeah i mean it's also interesting to see that exner town hall and black down house takes up a you say that toilets are the big ones but the two of them is is actually larger than than the public toilets and i appreciate there are people working out of there but not as many people that probably use the toilets um anyway other things so uh silver swimming pool that the the money that you um you said you were applying this grant 300 000 pound is that for the same decarbonization of the swimming pools that the council's already given you the money for got there in case we don't get this grant and sorry it is roughly for the same for the same money so the the idea is that we would use that money if we win it okay instead of the budget from the from the uh environment uh budget okay so that's that's what we we plan to do okay so if we get the budget which is like the budget from the bid which is slightly more okay we will basically use that money instead of the one today has already been allocated um okay and i just wonder if that puts a slight disadvantage i've had this argument before when we put in for grants and things if the people that are doing the grants look at it and go well you've already got the money earmarked we'll give it to someone who hasn't got that money but that's another thing um and also finally simmouth ham west car park changing places only aborted planning application review does that mean that's it finished you're not going to start looking at anything else or or or not well at the moment i haven't been instructed to to look at anything else so it's pretty much um that's pretty much it um ian i'm just going to bring ting on on that good thank you yeah george is is right in that um he's not been instructed yet to look at anything else on that site um i had a good conversation with um chris holland the clerk of the town council um at the end of last week um so scenario is we have talked previously about two cubicles two toilet cubicles somewhere within that vicinity that was going to have been included in phase one um if it'd gone in alongside the adult changing places facility on the basis that the planning didn't get granted that project has now been removed from phase one however there is still the the the i suppose there is still the appetite by the district council to provide two additional cubicles somewhere in that locality now um either in exactly that same location or in another location around that building the flexibility there is that much greater flexibility now without the adult changing places facility we also then need to factor it in with market square building and the number of cubicles there um and whether the best solution for for the town is to have more at market square or to have them split across across both sides but i i've started that discussion with the clerk last week so um it isn't so i suppose to answer your question council barlow it's not the end of it it is the end of a adult changing places facility because we had funding for that but it's not the end of the two cubicles however they are not in phase one now so they will be considered in a subsequent phase and um the clerk and i have have committed to sort of having that sort of having an ongoing discussion on what that solution might be okay you say that we're not getting a change in places now just because we've just run out of time i believe we've had to hand the money back yeah we have to return the money back yeah the the funding required that the um the the um the changing place facility went in this calendar year so yep so we've um we've had to notify deluck that um that money is being returned to them yeah there is a a an opportunity perhaps for for all district councils coming later this or later next month when perhaps all councils will get some more funding for uh for facilities such as toilets and changing places we don't know depends what happens after the fly could i ask just again i know this was left very late and again working with the town council would have made this better more possible uh if it had happened perhaps a little bit earlier rather than being left to the last minute where again you know that you put in an application everyone said we didn't like it down there and then the planning committee and i wasn't allowed to speak on it refused it so you know i just think that again it's a wasted opportunity that could have been should have been um perhaps with a little bit more communication better communication allowed and been able to be built i think sorry i think on that i think that's a little bit unfair because there was discussion there was discussion between this authority and another authority and and that i have to on this one say that's your personal viewpoint um and and defend each devin in that respect but everyone will have a view on this um sorry i didn't hear who the person was who wanted to respond that was me i wanted to a lot of lines basically so um yeah it's it's it's it is frustrating because we we um we emailed before before the planning application went live we emailed the board members okay and uh and it was it was about a month before the planning obligation went live and we had no response whatsoever we also met with the town council and we went through the proposals uh after the application was put in and there was obviously some some concerns and uh and we changed the proposals uh to consider those those those comments okay and the proposal that we ended up with was a quite considerate proposal okay for the site and for basically the the provision over there and it was quite frustrating i couldn't be in the planning committee but it was quite frustrating to hear that the conversations around the in the in the planning committee it wasn't really related to the latest proposal you know so you know they were talking about something that it was completely completely it was based on the first proposal right and the than the revised proposal that we finally in that way and it was frustrating to see that there were still people talking about the original proposal which had nothing to do and the other the other issue i have with this is that planning officers will have a uh urban planning qualification they propose the proposals for approval and then their members go and basically they they turn it down how is that george george sorry can i just come in please um so so yeah i suppose councillor barlett and members generally yeah very very frustrating um but we are where we are um what i would say is that what i do say is that we we we dealt with the town council and our ward members in in sidmouth in exactly the same way that we did in each of our other phase one sites across the district um and we have not had these these same issues in in in other towns i appreciate that sidmouth was a more complex site because you were creating something where there wasn't something before our other sites you already have something and you're in effect replacing that with something that will be nicer and and provide a better service this is the um the phase one rollout um clearly as we move on to the phase two and subsequent um rollouts we will look back at how we've run phase one and whether there are any learnings and and and maybe we do need to have different discussions with with town councils directly rather than just for our own ward members and we can we we can consider all that in in in the fullness of time but but in terms of how we dealt with sidmouth it wasn't exactly the same way that we dealt with all of the other the the other times and um and and and as i said we did consult with our ward members prior to prior to putting in the applications as we did with all of the other times so so i think let's we are where we are but let's let's see whether there are any sort of wider learnings in terms of subsequent phases yeah thank you and thanks for the clarity obviously there'll be ongoing discussions with sidmouth town council and ward members about providing something you know just that's all we're after is providing amenity um nick over to you oh thank you chair um just a very quick one from me uh section 2.4 on the report george you've listed some works on the on the exmouth ocean center um some of which are stated to be did you with storm damage and um there's others other works there as well like gutters and doors and concrete slabs was that also related to the storm damage or is that just simply stuff that's worn out property was that so exmouth ocean your table on section 2.4 yeah over there we've um we've completed some work that that were related to the storm damage okay the gutter relining wasn't related to the storm damage okay that was that was an ongoing issue that we had which basically the building was designed with the gutter that couldn't take the volume of water that we have so but we did we relined the gutter and then expanded a little bit so it is um it can cope better with the volume and uh and also we've we've done some repairs there in the terrace okay uh and that wasn't that wasn't storm related at all and uh a door as well that we replaced over there so that wasn't that wasn't storm related at all so just one item that was storm related basically okay thank you very much for that clarification thank you chair you're welcome nick thank you and thank you george um members of forum uh sam todd anything else you want to tease out of this or any questions you want to ask i just a quick one if i may chair of course george did you say then regarding ocean that the gutters that were on the building as designed were insufficient to cope with the volume of rain water coming off the roofs there is yes there was a gutter which is in a valley and this usually happens and then basically what what should happen is that that value needs to be clear okay constantly okay and uh at the back of that building we have really tall trees over there the the responsibility of clearing that valley lies with l e t okay and uh and basically what what happens is because they are really tall trees at the back the valleys they get they get filled up very very quickly but it is not a very accessible place either so it is it is a combination of that okay so um but yes the the outlet is smaller than i would have liked it okay probably at the time when it was designed we didn't have the volumes of uh water that we're getting now we're getting really heavy downpours now you know in the last few years so it does kind of um overwhelm the the whole design basically okay so i i wouldn't i wouldn't i wouldn't say that it was a design fault okay okay i'll reserve further comment thank you chair okay i'll bore you with one of my analogies i a commercial building i used to work in which was built commercially you know with great big huge hoppers and gutters and and profiles uh there was a particular bit of gutter that always overflowed and when we actually went up there and had a look at it for some reason they had made it tiny it was it was essentially like a residential house and it was just that's what's going to happen huge volumes of water can't get through a hole very quick it's going to overflow it's just the way it is so thank you george for that report um and again for for the continuing work you're doing um i see no other hands up so uh from the chair i'll propose that we note the report as per the recommendation are all members happy with that of the forum yeah okay so in that sense and i believe we have reached the end of our agenda um just check here yes so in which case and that brings our meeting to an end i'd like to thank everyone officers and uh forum members and counselors for your attendance and indeed any members of the public watching online on a monday morning um i hope you enjoyed it um can i remind uh all those uh present that the sporting officer will confirm when this meeting is no longer being streamed and until then your comments will be live to the public so please mind your language up to the point where we get confirmation from debbie