Transcript

[No audio] Good afternoon and welcome to licence and subcommittees. Can we have a nomination for chair please? I'll second that thanks. [No audio] Okay, just because we started meeting can I welcome everybody to the sopternoon's licence in subcommitting meeting. In a moment I'm going to actually go round and introduce that with a round we'll go round the table. Can I first say all forms could you make sure they're all switched off please if you've got one? Okay, that's what we're going to be saying for you. Thank you Chair. I've checked with Demi and she's happy for you to use her first name to refer to us today. I'll give her the option of Demi on Miss Murphy but she's just happy with that either. Okay, so I'm Lorraine Simpson, I'm the licence and manager for the council. I'm Dominic Heap's licence and officer. I'm Consto of Nikki Ireland, I'm both side please licence and officer. And Sergeant Craig Carmichael from Licensing with measures and please. I'm Demi, I'm the manager of Maloney's and TPS. Councillor Keeler, Newton Eastward. I'm going to turn him away at Newton Eastward. Susan Frame from Democratic Services, Clark in the meeting. Ashley Mealy, a senior solicitor to the council. Okay, now as you've just answered Dave Banks from Newton West, Chair for today, okay, thank you. Okay, Lorraine, would you like to come in? Thank you Chair. So, the procedure today is that basically you go first, Demi, to explain to members, you know, the reason as the premise issues are that you've asked for the ten and what you want to do with it and whatever. Then the members can ask you any questions that they might want to have clarity. Doing that, the police then will do the same, they'll put their evidence forward to members and then members can ask them any questions, okay. And then following that, they just do a brief summing up in case there's anything anybody's missed. We'll ask the police, it goes in reverse, all the next time around. Police in case there's anything there wants to say there's a final couple of minutes and then it comes back to you if there's anything you just want to add that you desperately want members to know. So we usually allow 20 minutes each party, presume that's enough for everybody, if you know when you're presenting your cases, that's maximum, and then five minutes for the summing up. So all I'll do now is just do a brief outline of the report, should just take a couple of minutes. And then when everybody's given the evidence today at the committee, basically what happens is the members will likely pass a motion to deliberating privates on the decision. So the easiest way to explain that is that everybody from me and yourself, dammy, going this way, all leaves, and they're deliberating private with their legal advisor, then unnotified of the decision and we will notify you of the decision either today or tomorrow. So we'll notify you as soon as we find out and then basically get a decision letter as well within five working days explaining all the rationale for why they've reached that decision. Okay. Right. Okay. So we're here today to, as we have a 10, which has been submitted to the license in authority by Demi Murphy, which is attached to appendix two of your report, it's for the premises known as Milanes, which has an existing premises license, which is attached to appendix one of the report. So the temporary event notice was for the extension of the sale of alcohol from the premises and provision of regulated entertainment from all 300 hours to all 400 hours on the 27th and 28th April. So the license in authority sent the 10 to Merseyside Police and Environmental Health on the 12th April, and only the police or environmental health can submit an objection notice to a 10. The copy of the objection notice that was received on the 16th April from Merseyside Police is attached to appendix three. And the reason provided by Merseyside Police for the objection notice is that they believe it wouldn't demand the license in objective of the prevention of crime and disorder. When this occurs, the license in authority must hold a hearing to consider the objection notice unless all parties have previously agreed that a hearing is unnecessary or the 10 is withdrawn. Okay. So that is it for me, Chair. Thank you very much. Are there any questions from members at all? No. Deb, if you don't mind, just before I bring you in, I'd just like to go through a couple of items here, then I'll bring you in. My thoughts have jumped a couple slightly. So there was item two, was the minutes of the meeting held on the 11th April, 24th and April 12th, 2024, can I set those as correct? Cheers. Thank you. Have there any decorations or interest from members? No. Okay. And that brings us to yourself, Debbie. So can you start? Thank you. As the DPS of Melonese, I've been asked to put the ten in. We wanted, I think, if, for my knowledge, I think it was for a box and match that was on. That's why we wanted to extend it as we got told that there would be no police house from 4 p.m., and 4 a.m., sorry. So we thought that an extra 60 minutes from three wouldn't be that much of a difference. I don't think, I think a lot of incidents happen on most streets, between any time I don't think it's more, between three and five a.m., as people, when we have customers in the bar, if they leave and things can happen that we can't control, if they leave the premises or go to another bar, I think many bars could agree that if there's police out between, from when we open at 10 till three, is, and there's still little four, is there a difference or do they not be on the streets at all at 4 p.m.? So basically, I'm just trying to say, we wanted the extra 60 minutes for, we add, a box and match that was on, that's the one that we put in. We've had five weeks of 5 a.m.s, the past few weeks, and we've not, we've had the incidents but not, not on that we couldn't control or not on that being, to an extent, or what happens after we've closed our premises, which we couldn't do, not on the bulk, because we're short. Last week and the week before, I think no one had 5 a.m.s and there's a lot of fighting on the streets from everyone coming out at the same time, there's no way to go, and I think having one bar or two bars having a 5 a.m., it's, you can, some, most people do go home after when bar shows are free, but a lot of people are coming out later instead of earlier, and they're not getting enough time out, and they still want to, still be then enjoyed a night, I don't think, that's all I've got to say at the moment. Okay, we'll just come in, yeah. Just for clarity for everybody, the 5 a.m.s that you're referring to, they've been submitted as additional days, aren't they, which are on the Mallorney's licence, yeah, so as I'd explained to members previously, there are six premises in the town centre that have these 12 additional days on the licence, which they can use to extend the hours until 5 a.m., so that's what you'd used on the previous ones, isn't it? That's what you're referring to, okay. Just for clarity, the boxing match that you're referring to, was this a televised boxing match? Um, I'm not too sure, I've just been told by Darren and Peter that we wanted to put an extended interval for to see if we could do that. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any questions at all? Rachel, Council, just on that last point about the boxing day, how did the boxing match? Is that for the one that applying for an hour, is that for a previous question? That's the one that we apply for for the four, till 4 a.m. That's the one you're applying for? Yeah, this is this, what, the 10, yeah. Okay, thank you. What's it called, Councillors? No? Okay, Debbie. Councillor interjecting. Oh, sorry. Do apologize. Obviously, you're asking for an extension, I mean, what's your feelings about, do you believe that there is trouble after that closing time or that it is a situation? What is your feelings on that? I do think you get a lot of incidents, but I think incidents can happen from any time of the night at 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock, 12, 1, 2, 3. We don't know what people are feeling or what they're doing. They could see someone don't like and something could happen, we can't control that, but I would say, these incidents shut on, not all the time, some people just want more places to go, but that's just, I think that's everybody really, but I do think extending it, a lot of people tend to not argue and fight if that makes sense. So there's places to go, like last week, we have, for instance, everyone shows up 3pm, 3am, sorry, so everyone come out and they were just fighting from all the way up the street, just everyone, because there was no way to go and instead of going home, they were just huddled in the street. Okay, so what you're basically saying there, no matter what time they come out, you feel the might be trouble, is that what you're saying on the street, is that what you're saying? Not all the time. I don't want to be words into your mouth. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Not all the time is fighting, you can have weekends where there's no trouble, you can be obviously going to say what anyone's going to do when they come out or when in the border on the street, we don't know until it sort of happens. But I do think, I don't really see if the police are out at 4am, we will only ask and to extend it for an extra 60 minutes, just so we could have that boxing, I think it was the boxing, if I'm right, we could have the boxing on, which people do enjoy, because we have like the live sports on and bring a great atmosphere in the ball, we do have all ice and storm and on, till open till short in the night time. We have, we're always on the ball with, if we see it and like we think something's going to happen, we'll de-escalate it before it happens, and when we're short and people are gone and we're all cleaning up to cashing up and stuff, that's outside of work. So that's why we wanted to extend it for, because the police are still around at 4am. Okay, thank you very much, Councillor Maguire. Hi, Jeremy, I'm interested to point about them all closed at the same time, which doesn't give them an outlet to go anywhere else. So it would naturally congregate everybody at 3pm all on the way back, so wherever they go in. So I think you do have a point there, and maybe some of the police will look at if everybody shuts at the same time, it may cause extra issues. So you genuinely believe that, yeah? Yeah, we have got a few videos from last week, I haven't got them on me, I don't think. But since everyone shut, it was that week, I think it was last weekend, everyone shut at 3am, so there was a lot of people arguing and fighting and stuff in the streets after everywhere they shut, because they had no way to go. So I do believe I've earned one or two open people. Most people do go home at 3 o'clock, not everyone stays out, but a lot of people are coming out later, but at the same time, if everyone shut at 3 o'clock, people could start coming out earlier and bringing it back. So it's a bit of trying to find that work for everyone, but I do think there's been a lot more incidents last weekend when everyone shuts than what they have been for the past couple of weeks for what I know. Okay, thanks. Okay, come in, we're in. Just for clarity, Demi, on this boxing match, she's talking about who is it? We know. I'm not too sure, I just get all two. It's just that on the 10 that you've applied for, you've applied for two nights, so it's not like your boxing match would run over two nights. It was just a 1, weren't it? 27th, 28th of April until 4am. The UFC? Sorry, Mr. Dred, would you come? I know, but unfortunately, we'll have to ask you just to keep quiet, please. So it's two nights that you've applied for, and it's four, I don't even know what UFC is anyway, so you'll have to explain that to me. It's on every Saturday, every weekend, I think. I don't know much about myself, I just get asked to put it in, and I do my job, basically. Okay, right, but you're the premises manager? Yeah. Okay. All right, thank you. Okay, anything else, that's all? Okay, let's bring the police in now, all right, thank you. Sorry, that's my about apologies. Motor side police have made representations to the application for the grant grants of a temporary event notice for Maloney's in Ormskirk Street, St. Helens, submitted under section 100 of the license in Act 20, sorry, 2003. The application has been made for Maloney's to run a standard temporary event notice from 0300 to 0400 on the 28th of April, 2024. It will be motor side police's application today that the temporary event notice be refused in full. Motor side police have considered the application of the opinion that granting it would undermine the license and objectives of the prevention of crime and disorder. As a background to this, there are a group of premises within the nighttime economy area of St. Helens who routinely apply for temporary event notices to extend their license and allow us beyond their current permitted license from 0300 hours to 0500 hours or a variation of those hours in between. This practice has meant that between them, the bars have converted what should be, as per the St. Helens Statement of License and Policy, a 3 o'clock finishing time to routinely be in a 5 o'clock finishing time, almost every weekend. If I may draw your attention to pages 1 to 6 of the bundle of evidence that I presented to you, this is a statement from the local chief inspector for St. Helens, John Smith. Mr Smith has been posted to St. Helens' local policing since January 2020. During this time, he has had the responsibility over the operational policing of the nighttime economy. He would have been here today, but unfortunately a period of leave has prevented this, so he has sent us apologies. The police have identified that this, what is now becoming routine in practice, is having a direct effect upon antisocial behaviour and crime and disorder in the town centre area or the D111 beat as it is known to the police. As per 067 and 8th in Mr Smith's statement, the key issues arise late on Friday and Saturday nights into the early hours of the following morning. Many different offences are committed during this time, most with alcohol as a contributory factor. The later these premises are open, the more people can drink, the more intoxicated they become, the decisions become poorer and the number of offences rise. In the 12 months prior to making his statement, Chief Inspector Smith identified that 608 violence-related crimes had been committed within the town centre D111 area, with armed scarek streets carrying 42 of these incidents. This can be evidenced on page 7 of the bundle that you have been presented with. There are a range of offences committed in this time frame, such as robbery, public order offences, violence with injury, violence without injury. The combined violence offences make up over 80 per cent of the committed crime. This is shown in Exhibit JSO2 on bundle page 9. If I could then direct you to page 13 of your bundle, this map shows the area that the police are particularly found in concerning, but this same area has also been identified as a serious violent hotspot by the Home Office. Independent Home Office funded analysts have identified 12 such hotspots within Mosicide Police and this is one of them. This is not a police initiative, this is a result of an independent government study. You will note that the location of Milanis is right in the middle of this serious violence and antisocial behaviour hotspot. The objection to the temporary event notices have come about after looking at crime within the night time economy, especially later into the evening. Milanis is not being singled out in relation to these objections, after long consultation with the St. Helens Police Command Team and taking legal advice, the decision has been made that any temporary event notice to go after 0-300 hours in the city centre is highly likely to be objected to. We are not suggesting that Milanis alone, as a licence premises, are responsible for all of the incidents in the D111 area. We are, however, aware of at least three separate incidents in one night that are currently being investigated from the early hours in the morning from this Saturday just gone. It was at 0-0-31 hours, a female was arrested outside Milanis for being drunk and disorderly. At 0-0-54 hours, there was a male arrested for an assault, again outside of the premises and at 0-255 hours, one male was knocked out by another male after running out of Milanis premises. Since January this year, Milanis has been further involved, named or the location of five incidents reported to the police that we consider very concerning. Page 15 of your bundle shows you a breakdown of these incidents. You will see a record of a proactive visit to the premises on page 13 of your bundle. This is from 1 January 2024 and it refers to a visit that has been completed at Milanis. It was reported to the police that a 16-year-old male intoxicated with white-powered around his nose had been located by the police the night before refusing to leave Milanis front door, displaying drunken disorderly behaviour. The male was given medical assistance by the police, taken to hospital and eventually returned home unscathed. Safe guarding and external partners had to be involved in this incident. Unfortunately, on attendance, the premises was closed for refurbishment and the subsequent follow-ups, we were never able to ascertain if this young man had actually been inside Milanis or not. Police had a further report on the 29th of February at 038 hours. The premises was open on that time as they were operating under the special day that has obviously already explained to you the concession of the number of extra days that they are allowed on their licence to remain open until 0500 hours. This was not a temporary event notice. This was a report of a fight and subsequent ejection from the premises remember of the public. You will find the police log for this incident on page 29 of your bundle. There was a report of another fight on the 8th of March at 21-12 hours. This log is on page 27 of the bundle and a subsequent walkthrough after this event by the police identified evidence of drug use in the toilets at Milanis. On the 30th of March 2024, at 1,800 hours, police were made aware of a male on the floor outside Milanis with a head injury. This male was assaulted following a row with another male whilst inside Milanis, but the police were not called to the venue and the log for that incident can be found on page 25. Another incident is from the 1st of April at 043 hours. Again, the premises was not operating on the 10th. It was open late because of its special day entitlement. A member of the public reported to the police that they had seen a male inside Milanis with a knife engaged in an altercation. Staff were allegedly made aware and all parties were allowed to remain inside. These people reporting had left the premises due to feeling unsafe. Whilst looking into this, police subsequently arrested two males outside the venue for drunken disorderly behaviour after they had to be incapacitated with parva spray due to resisting any questions from the police and becoming violent towards them. In relation to the incidents disclosed from January until now, two of these reports clearly show violent drunkenness and public order offences around licence premises. After the hours of three, and frankly, may not have happened to have the bars being closed at that time, Chief Inspector Smith has reviewed both the data and the practices in place and now intends upon placing a greater emphasis upon reviewing all 10 applications, stating that he has a responsibility to act in the best interests of the St. Helen's residence and ensure safe use of the night-time economy. He believes that granting such temporary event notices places residents at a greater risk of becoming a victim of crime. Due to this, they have been provided with Home Office funding to implement a problem-solving approach to this issue. Previous funding has paid for improved lighting, improved CCTV coverage in the town centre within the crime hotspot and along with the purchase of knife ones which have been issued to door staff. Reduced in the use of tens in the area is another opportunity to reduce the risk and tackle and prevent serious violence. It is Mr Smith's assertion that an extension of these licence in hours would be counterproductive to the work that the police and outside agencies have already undertaken and to continue to do so in order to make St. Helen's town a safer place for patrons. Such an increase in licence in hours and his opinion contributes to increased risks to the wider community and a greater likelihood of alcohol or drug-related violence. We have allowed all the tens to take place with reduced hours and I hope that shows that Merseyside Police does look at tens on their own merits. We have also been consistent in our approach that if premises are just looking to extend their normal evenings beyond 0-300 hours, they are highly likely to receive an objection. Finally, bundle pages 35-37 are two crime dashboard searches for violence from February to April 2024. This is since Merseyside Police have been actively objecting to temporary event notices in St. Helen's town centre. From an initial analysis, I get your teeth well now, Merseyside Police, since they have been objecting to these tens, it shows that this has impacted on a number of crimes that are being recorded. But that doesn't mention how this is likely to have had an effect on anti-social behaviour and matters that are not recorded as crimes such as offences of drunken disorder. This information fully supports St. Helen's statement of licensing policy suggesting that the town centre licence premises being closed by 0-300 hours is instrumental in upholding the licence objectives of prevention of crime and disorder and public safety which in turn is beneficial to the entire community. In conclusion', Merseyside Police are working hard to make the NTA in St. Helen's safer, reducing violence, disorder and alcohol-related anti-social behaviour. We feel that 0-300 hours is late enough for the town centre and this is supported by Chapter 4 of the St. Helen's statement of licensing policy. This is regularly exceeded by several bars by using their 12 special days or their premises licence, temporary event notices or indeed book. It is something that has been discussed with St. Helen's Police at Command Team Level for quite some time. We are saying that unless there are exceptional circumstances then enough is enough and due to the levels of crime and disorder in the town centre beyond 0-300 hours then now is enough. Finally, may I refer you to the points of the Section 182 guidance, 2.1. The licence and authority should look at the police as the main source of advice on crime and disorder along with sections 76, 7.32, 7.34 which are referred to the temporary event notice legislation and of course, if I may refer you to St. Helen's own statement of licensing policy. Thank you very much for your time today. Thank you. Any questions from Councillors? Councillor McGly? Hi, thanks for that. Are there objections all about the incidents between 3 and 5 because it seems to be more incidents before that time? Are there objections as much to do with the lack of police resource after 4am? So the police resources provided for the night time economy are a ring-fenced resource. So for argument's sake, if we have 10 officers on duty who are primarily deployed to St. Helen's town centre, that means that they are unable to be sent anywhere else to deal with anything else. But whilst in St. Helen's town centre, if they are making arrests, they then have to leave, go to custody, do statements, use of force forms if required. If somebody is found extremely intoxicated, injured, we very often have to follow up to hospital, that consistently depletes those numbers of ring-fenced officers. So you may start a shift with 10 ring-fenced night time economy officers. But by 4 o'clock in the morning, that number may be greatly depleted, which then means that you are reliant upon your response officers who cover St. Helen's in its entirety, which then kicks up your response time, which means that people aren't getting the help that they need as effectively or as quickly, and there is an issue as per the figures that have been provided by the chief inspector of increased levels of violence between those hours. Anything else at all? No? OK, just a couple of qualifications from myself. You mentioned a 16-year-old male. I believe his job was to add white stuff on his nose. And he was stopped at the front door. Do we know whether he was coming out or trying to get in? Unfortunately, the premises were very fair, and when we initially tried to tie up with the premises and make those inquiries completely understandable, the premises were shut, nobody was available to be seen and spoken to, so unfortunately, after numerous attendances at the premises in order to try and ascertain where this child had been, had he been inside, had he not, we weren't able to clarify it. OK, thank you. Just a little bit of a clarification as well, was the number of, perhaps, I think it's a 608? If you look at, it's over a 12-month period. If you look at the disclosure made by Chief Inspector Smith, he's literally gone. There is a map there, which shows that there are 608 violence offences within St Helens, as a whole, 49 of which are carried by Ormskirk Street. 49. Yeah. All right, thank you. Any more questions from Councillors at all? No? Randy, would you wish you could come in? Just for clarity on this point of policing until 4am, I think, well, this question has arisen previously, and I think that the, what the police are saying is, there's a specific nighttime economy resource correct until that time. After that, it doesn't mean there's no police in the area, it just means the dependence on response officers, so the specific deployment for the nighttime economy goes off at 4 correct. It doesn't mean there's no police at all available to attend to any incidents in the nighttime economy, just for clarity. Yeah, if I can just clarify also on that, they go off at 4 o'clock, which means they will probably leave St Helens town centre by 1/2/3 to de-kit, to finish up their write-ups and to go off. So they won't be actually on the streets at 4 o'clock, they'll be putting their coats on to go home at 4, and also the, obviously we've got the depletion, there was also a point brought up in relation from Councillor McGuire about incidents happening at different times of the night. We do accept that, we agree that there was an incident there at 6 o'clock at night, there was incidents at 12, 1, 2, and 3, I mean, a couple of things we agree. One is that the later the night goes on, the more people have drunk, so the more risk there is anyway, but also we accept that we do want St Helens to have a nighttime economy. So if you're saying, well, why aren't we closing the pubs at midnight, because we've got incidents at 1 o'clock and 1/2, 1 and 2 o'clock, I think the point is we're trying to be reasonable to say, well, no, we know where there is nighttime economy and there is alcohol, there is an increased risk of violence, and 3 o'clock is probably a fair point to give everyone an opportunity to make money and also an opportunity to go out and enjoy a nighttime economy. We just feel that going to 5 o'clock is probably just too far for a town centre. Okay, is anybody want to come back? No? Right, we've come to the showings up now and it's yourselves to go first, if you want to brief something up. Hi, I've lost my page. Ultimately, I think the bottom line is that given the evidence presented in relation to alcohol-related incidents and the violence that does take place within St Helens' time centre after 3 o'clock. We really feel that in order to uphold the license and objective of the prevention of crime and disorder, that these tenons shouldn't be allowed. Okay, all right, thank you. Let's jump up. I think I've missed a few pages of them, instance that you've come up with as well because only four, six of them are in this. It was one that you said, my page from the more different, how many do you have down? Yeah, I think one of them is that you've come up with your page and you don't have to come up with your card card or your card card card card card card card card card card. Yeah, do you have the top column? Yeah, do you? What page is with the on 15 or 16? Yeah, do you have the instance on breakfast and try to let them talk to you? Oh, yeah. I think a few, a few instances that I wanted, I do think that they are alleged because this was an instance through the day, I can't remember what it must be in the facility, I've bought a man getting hit in the bar, I don't recall he did get hit in the bar, he was outside of the bar and then the 16-year-olds, does no, it does say that he was located outside the premises, not actually in the premises, I think we're all together, I think there's another, a lot of crime going on, I think all about people who work in the bar do understand that and I think it would be fair if everyone has a free o'clock or not one bar at this and then it's unfair if you skip, don't give us a book given up about it, I think that's where a lot of people would be not happy with that decision but as I said, I do think a lot of crime happens no matter what time of the night, no one can control what people are thinking or what they do and or what time they've been drinking from, they could be drinking from 12 o'clock in the day and so on because I've been at 10 o'clock at night, but I do think a lot of the crime is not, most of the majority of this that's down I would say is not being proved, that has happened, so it is. Yeah, but police have already summoned up, haven't they, so also I'm going to finish off, as you say, it's going to be very hard for anyone to get a 10, so I do think we are expecting to get knock back, but I do think it is, if you're going to give those a 4 or 5 a.m. and another 1 or it wouldn't be fair, so I do think if it's not working the way it is now with the 5, the 4 a.m. then it is going to be like the customers are going to have to try and come out with a lot earlier to get the night that they wanted to have, so a lot more hours to come out at 12 and only have in 3 hours, yeah I think that's all I need to say. Okay, thank you very much. And I thank everybody for coming along this afternoon, thank you.