Transcript

I'd like to welcome everyone to the panel and I will now ask each to introduce themselves for those that don't know each other. So my name's Dina Romero and I am the chair of this panel. Morning, my name is Liz Hardman, I'm vice chair of this panel. Hello, I'm Robin Moss and I'm substituting for Lesley Mansill and I'm David Hardman, Councillor for Chew Valley Ward. Councillor Joanna Wright, Landbridge Ward. Good morning, I'm Ruth Malloy, I'm Councillor in Weston and I'm a member of this panel. Hello, I'm Alex Bermont, Councillor Keensham North. Hello, I'm Andy Waite, I'm Councillor for Keensham East and I'm subbing for Port Crossley this morning. Thank you Andy, I've just finished with the panel members, so Kevin. Good morning, I'm Kevin Burnett, professional association rep for the ADHD. And just for everyone to note, it's only Councillors that will be able to vote on any matters where a vote is required, so I'm now moving on to the officers and then I shall come to our other people here, so officers first, Mary. Can you use your microphone? Thank you, I'm then supporting this panel, Mark. Good morning everyone, I'm Mark Dornford, I'm the democratic services officer for the panel. Good morning everyone, I'm Kerry Williamson, I provide the security officer support to the panel. And finally, Eleanor. Well actually, I think you're here as a Councillor. I'm here as an owner of the Sacro. Thank you very much Eleanor, so I just want to remind everybody of a sort of housekeeping item which is that the camera is free on you if you leave your microphone on, so if I've called someone else to speak, they won't be on camera but you will be, so you might want to take that on board in your operating of your microphone. That's assuming that your microphones work. Have we sorted out the issue for officers and for a cabinet member? Okay. Right, in that case I will move on to the emergency evacuation procedure, Mark. Great. Thank you, Chair. If the continuous alarm does sound, you must evacuate the building and proceed to the assembly point. From this room, you follow the green running person signs to the exit, using over the marble staircase or the main staircase. Please do not use the lifts. The assembly point for this building is the orange grove grassed area at just outside brains restaurant. It's an evacuation chair for use by the disabled people who so wish in the corridor outside of the Councillor's home of a public gallery. Alternatively, the area at the top of the marble staircase has been designated as a safe refuge, where a person's needing assistance should assemble. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much, Mark. The next item is apologies for absence of substitutions, and as we heard, Paul Crossley said his apologies, and Andy Waite is substituting for him, and similarly, Leslie Mann is always not here, but Robin Moss is. And we also have apologies, I think, from Chris Batten. Have we received any other apologies, Mark? Okay. Thank you. Right. Next item, declarations of interest, nothing to declare, urgent business, I have no urgent business, then we move on to the public and also Councillor statements and questions. I'd like to call Eleanor to make her statement, please. Does your microphone work? Just before you get started, Councillor Jackson has indicated to me that she'd like to speak directly before the agenda item, if that's okay with you. That's fine with me, yes? Okay. So, the next item are the minutes from the 15th of April. So, are there any points that were inaccurately recorded that people would want to raise, or any other comments on the minutes? Kevin? Yes, please. On page 6 of the minutes, it was just to, unless I've missed them somewhere, and apologies if I have, but the summit summary from Chris about the Community Summit as far as education is concerned. Sorry. Shall I have to say, if I don't have to be here? Yes, sorry. Repeat that for me, Kevin. Yes. I just, unless I've missed it and it hasn't, it's gone to my spam box or something, so apologies if it has. I was thinking that was going to be coming a summit summary from you about the summit as far as education is concerned. I don't know if it was for me, the summit wasn't organised around all, if we indeed attended by myself, but we did have an officer who did help from the summary, so I'm sure we can get some feedback on it for you. That'd be fantastic. Thank you very much. Do you want me to raise the two points or leave that because that was somebody else's point? Okay. It was mentioned on page seven that the toothbrush scheme was being supported by St. John's, sorry, supported. It's not a game. It was raised on page seven that there's a toothbrush scheme in operation and the question was asked how many of the schools involved were being supported by the St. John's Foundation, so it was a question to come back about how many were actually part of being supported by St. John's. Thank you. That might actually be a question that the Cabinet Member White want to pull out when he talks about the work of St. John's in his own report, but I will ask first if officers want to have a response to that or if we should wait for Paul May's report. Okay, all right, Farrah, and then you suggested you had another question there. There was, on page 13, Lucy was going to provide an answer about the overall capacity of GPs concerning student numbers presumably around the university. Thank you, Kevin, because that was my question or my point that I erase. I don't know, Laura, if you have an answer, it was specifically around university students and their access to GP services. I don't have an answer today, but I'll take that one away and come back. I understand that we are looking at that information and that data, so we will bring that back. Thank you. Are there any other points anybody wants to raise on the minutes? Okay, are we happy then to take them as an accurate record of that meeting? All those in favour? Yes, good, David? That's carried. So, moving on to the Cabinet Member Update, so we will have all seen the report that was circulated. So, is there anything you want to add Paul to that report or would you like to take questions? Does your microphone work yet? It's okay, the tech team is rushing to your aid. Right, thank you very much. Technology has never moved my strong point, Chair. Yes, a couple of points I'd like to highlight if I could. The first was around school streets. Councillor Raiton, Saskia, met me and we had a really sensible discussion about that. Obviously, it's not a situation that can apply to all schools, but there are going to be some that are really - it would be a real advantage to have that and it's fairly clear that from the Mende area, through Bristol, South Gloucestershire, they all have schemes that have already been implemented. So, it's not something that there's going to be just bains doing it, and I was very pleased that Councillor Rait is here today because his committee has the responsibility for it and he's given a public commitment that he would work jointly with this committee to actually move that forward, so I think that's a major issue that I'm really pleased about. The other thing I just wanted, a couple of things there that I've put in which perhaps haven't been on the agenda before, the first was around the skills side. The college unfortunately was downrated by Offstead and the principal who we knew very well over a long period of time resigned or took early retirement and there's now a new acting principal in and it's important for us to actually think about how the college actually deals with young people over a long period of time because from meetings that I've had with the Parent Careers Association, there's some real issues with the college and how they deal with young people that have got disabilities, send and how they support them through the college life, so I've made an urgent meeting with the acting principal who's been brought in to run the college to actually have a discussion about that and also we've been having discussions with the college around the Svez site to see whether we can actually get a presence for the summer valley enterprise zone. I knew you were going to ask me that chair and there's an opportunity there. There's going to be a lot of development, commercial type development, so it's about getting jobs for local people in the area and if we're doing that there's not only during the construction phase but there's also after it's actually opened that we actually can try and promote apprenticeships on the site, work experience and things like that, so I've been talking to the college about whether they could have a presence on the site and I think that would be a positive move forward for jobs in the south of the area. The other issue is on the SACRA report, which Councillor Jackson is going to be talking to you later, it is very important and unfortunately it does appear that there's quite an inconsistent approach in schools towards SACRA and it is important that we actually do think about how we deal with the issues of young people actually working together and I think there is so much tension in the world today, I think it's really important, we actually start as young as we can with children to actually get over the joint working and understanding each other, otherwise I can, I'm sure Councillor Hartman will start to explore a little bit around care experience, children which are obviously happily deal with because I think I was very pleased to say that the officers have pulled together a memorandum of understanding which we've discussed with the Bath University, not yet agreed but it was a practical move forward because there are opportunities outside of Bath and North East Somerset Council where we should be looking to see whether we can take the idea further. So it was great to have a unanimous decision in the Council Chamber but now we've got to actually try and make things happen and as a typical example, I can see colleagues here, we had a real issue around a young person who wanted to move home and the housing people were saying well you don't actually qualify for that and we've used that as a test case to actually get the housing people to potentially agree that care experience young people should be Class A in terms of housing but also to consider that because they have quite a traumatic life leading up to leaving care then it's important that we actually recognise that there are children and that they may have problems about having to move and to deal with things in a slightly different way where the Council system doesn't actually naturally respond to that. So we've had some really quite, I was going to say forceful discussions with our housing people who deal with process and we deal with people and I think that's really important. So I'll probably call on too long already Chair but you agree. Thank you. Look thank you Paul and I was very cheeky in nodding there and I think the Council might be fixed on you at the moment. What do I do? Okay so any questions off the or any points so I saw round you first and then Joanna. Thank you Chair. A couple of points absolutely right as Chair of the Climate Emergency Group I'm very happy to support the school streets initiative. I think it's something that we need to move as fast as we can given the remark she said about other Councils having really established sites. My question about that is to do with the, I understand we're going to select one school to as a sort of prototype. I just wonder what the selection process for that school was if it exists. I think the simple fact is initially I think we've only got one school in the budget and therefore we'll be seeking anybody or any school that is prepared to actually go with this. I think there is a potential school that's lined up which has been discussed in the past and under those circumstances initially let's actually see how that works. Because as I say that you know I represent an area where I've got two schools on the main A37 there's no way that you could natural fact practically do that. So the number of schools that can do it are limited but of course with 95% of our schools being in multi-academy trust. It's not something that is easily for us to impose or even select because the process really is quite driven by the school wanting to do it. So it's not dead straightforward but I think it's something that we could be actually thinking about but actually the selection I think is going to be via schools that volunteer. Thank you Paul. So it would be down to the school, Paul you've got your micron still on. So it would be down to the school then to put themselves forward and I assume there'll be a process of elimination and ward councilors would also be consulted. Absolutely Chair and you know being straight about this the function is not within the operational services like children's and adult services. It's quite clearly under Sophie Broadfield so what we've got to do is to try and influence and make sure we actually do achieve something because I think the great risk is if it falls between two different departments, two different committees that natural fact then doesn't happen. So my role I think is to try and work within the organisation to get something to happen and if it takes off then we do still have the school standards board where we could raise this if we didn't get a volunteer school. Thank you Paul and I'm actually going to ask Andy if there's any other points you wanted to raise as this will come under your panel. I mean will there be our working group? Well we haven't decided that I think Paul has highlighted the issue which is it's a sort of school-led thing. So I think probably the next step is to identify those schools that are interested in becoming school streets and negotiate with them, I don't know whether that's best done by a committee or done by a few nominated councils from the two committees that we haven't really thought about that at this stage. In that case then is it possible to have some idea how feedback would be given to this panel? Chair can I just say that the really positive side about this is we're into if you like process between two committees and cabinet member. The simple fact is that if we actually go ahead with this we do have a budget and we do have a responsible officer for doing this. So I've raised this with the director that Mandy Bishop that we deal with to actually talk with Sophie to actually make sure we move this forward. So I'm more than happy having listened to and then researched it on the internet myself I think it can be an exciting opportunity for schools but then you then got to be really careful because you get knock-on places where people then part their cars and so there's lots of things that can go wrong but I do think it's something that we should be able to explore and I will work very closely with the other committee and this committee to make sure we feedback. Thank you I'll take Andy and then I will eventually come to you Joe. Yeah I'd just like to point, I think we're all very enthusiastic about this. If that's the impression that's not been given then that's a mistake because we are. I mean as many of you know I spent a lot of time in secondary education and it is the most crazy situation where potentially the most polluting, dangerous environment for children is as they come in and out of school so anything we can do to alleviate that is got to be a good thing. Thank you Andy, Joe Anna and thank you for your patience. Thank you. Councillor May, thank you for seeing both myself and Councillor Saskia Helges over this issue. I don't want to make this political but twice the Green Party has put forward a budget amendment for a school street and twice we have been refused. I notice in your report it says that it needs strong school support and again Councillor Andy Waiter said it's a school led thing. I take you to item 10 on this agenda which is about send and in appendix 4 it gives a full list of statutory guidance to travel to school. There's a whole section 6 all about how schools it is the responsibility of the local authority to put in place ways to get to school and therefore and one of them is a school street. So I had challenged the view that it's up to the schools to deliver this or put forward their request for this, actually it's a responsibility of us as a statutory authority to ensure that we provide public health in the form of walking and cycling to school and we already have a sustainable transport view. We have signed up the LC Whip various things at Wecker so we do know that it is our responsibility to deliver this and by just throwing it to schools who are already under a mountain of bureaucracy, lack of support, lack of funding, et cetera, I think we're going about this the wrong way. I really feel that we should be looking at what schools exist and where we can easily deliver some things. I am aware from visiting St Stephen School where a group of parents are actively working on delivering a school street once a week by doing their own thing. They are all, you know, parents are putting things into their own hands and feel utterly unsupported by the council and its bureaucracy. So I'm glad for the support across this table. I wonder if we should actually ask that Sophie Broadfield attends the next meeting and gives us an update because it's a public health issue. Children should not be frightened of going to school because their pavements aren't clear. Their air pollution is bad, et cetera, et cetera. There is much that can be done, has been done in Bristol, has been done in South Gloucestershire in the Wecker region itself beyond that there are many school streets across the UK. So I just think that we are lacking in ambition and taking this forward and we really need to push the agenda fast for many reasons. So I would welcome actually a stronger emphasis from this committee. Thank you. Chair, can I appreciate Councillor Wright doesn't want to make it political, but that was rather a political statement. The simple fact is that this was raised at the last meeting I was at and I put my hand up in the air and said I wasn't that aware of school streets. So I went away and researched it. I went away and met Councillor Wright and Saskia and I've had a discussion with Councillor Waite. It's not the direct responsibility of this committee at the moment and you made reference to the statutory requirements. That report will deal with later and you can bring the point up there. But the simple fact is there's lots and lots of complications around school streets which have got to be thought through in policy terms because if you're going to do it you've got to think of what the implications are going to be. And yes, yes, fine, you know, I've said that I will back it and I will work with that committee to do that and I think that's really where we should be moving forward in a sensible way. Around the statute with comments and whether we've dealt with it, whether we haven't, it's something that was new on my agenda and I've said that I would take that and I'll move it forward. And I've spoken to Mandy Bishop who's spoken to Sophie Broadfield. So I'm really pleased that we're actually starting to move forward with it and I don't want to make it a political issue, I'm sorry, but I do think it is important that we actually where we can actually try to implement it and see what the downsides can be. Because with all you've mentioned, South Gloucestershire and Bristol, there's still very, very few schools and there's only one in through at the moment. So, you know, it's not something that's dead easy, we've got to think it through for each location. I appreciate that, Councillor Mayana, I appreciate your support. What I'm concerned about is leaving it to the schools to need a strong school support. What I'm saying is that it, there there is the responsibility of the authority and we should be turning this the other way around. That is my concern about the conversation that is in this room. Okay, Andy. The last point, I mean, if a school is an academy, the local authority has very little control of anything that happens within that school. The legal responsibility of the child, which is obviously the most important thing, is shared between the parent and the school through the academy. It's not through the local authority. There are a few schools that are still responsible for the local authority, but if we want to get this on the ground of moving, what we must do is have a solid support from the school. That is the first step and we can't move beyond the first step until we do that. That's all I must say. Thank you, Andy. And I think rather than confuse matters and have various officers report to this panel and also to the other panel, I think we should leave it sitting in the climate emergency panel and have a reporting structure to hear by yourself, I would suggest Councillor MAYE. And if there is some form of working group, I'm fairly sure that Joanna will be the first out of the blocks to volunteer. Okay. Thank you. Ruth. Thank you. I just wanted to say, put in a good word for some of the officers who are already doing a lot of work on improving road safety, namely Richard Pittman, who's the school travel plan officer, and Dave Boardman, senior road safety officer, and in Western, Western and also its primary school that will already be in a series of meetings and they are working on improving the next, moving to the next level of the mode shift, STARS school travel plan, and a school street is something that has been mooted. Again, I think perhaps the layout there may not make it ideal, but it's certainly something that's been considered along with other means of encouraging people to walk and cycle to school rather than coming by car. So just to say, there is already a lot of work going on, which I'm very, which I really welcome, because I'm very concerned about safety. It's one of the key things, so thank you. Thank you, Ruth. David. Thank you, Jay. I've got a couple of questions which might require written answer, so I just wanted to know with you. Oh, David. Are you, I just want to double-check. I'll be finished with the school streets piece, I think so. Okay. Yeah. David, I'm going to pause you, I'm going to bring Kevin in, and then I'll come back to you. Okay. Thank you, Chair. Can I just, first of all, just clarify, get clarification on the key, the key points of school, school streets, apologies, but I don't know an awful lot about it. But what are the key features and what are the key, who's in control of what? Sorry. Is that all right if I answer, Chair? Thank you. In a simple fact, the school, you identify some streets around the school when you've got a traffic regulation order, where for certain times, when coming in and going out, you actually ban vehicles going into that street, and under those circumstances, you actually then actually make people use their feet or their bikes to actually get to school. So it makes it safer in the area where the school is, but then has knock-on implications if people still want to drive their child to school. They then park somewhere outside, and then you've got to think about how you're actually getting the child to school. So it's not straightforward, but I do think in the way things are at the moment, I think it would be much more sensible if we can actually deal with it as a local authority, as opposed to just leaving it for individual schools. And I accept the fact that we can't control schools, but we do have the school standards board where we can actually talk about this and promote it. But it is important that we actually get the right policies in place first. And the other thing, Chair, just to make it very clear, I took this on board after the last meeting, and I'm more than happy to take responsibility to work effectively. And I don't think that needs, you need to call the officer to this meeting because the responsibility is quite clearly with Councillor WAIT's committee, but that doesn't mean to say that we then take our responsibility away. Chair, thank you. So two quick points following that. I think the first one, personally speaking, as an ex-head teacher, it shouldn't be anything to do with schools. It's an overall planning thing, and I have nightmare scenarios every time with parents and parking and cars. And I don't want to be dragged into that again if I was a head teacher, to be honest. It has to be an overall planning thing that is done. And I'd also like to say that probably the second thing would be as beware of things that are being pulled in different directions, such as in Midsum and Orton area, when they cut the bus services, the amount of traffic that suddenly increased in the roads to get all the secondary children to schools ridiculous. So it has to be a definitely an overall planning thing, I would say, and really, it shouldn't be left to schools to say I'd like a street here, or I'd like a parking meter here. It has to be an overall council plan thing which the parents could then go and complain to you about. I fully understand the point you're making, Mr Burnett, but the simple fact is, if we implemented it and the school wasn't engaged and then that would be a disaster as well. You know, I represent areas where my two schools are on the main road, and the disruption that the parents create in that area is really, really quite awful, and they sit there with their engines, waiting for the children to come out from the school because they have to walk up the main road and they have different ways of getting the children to the schools. So it is an issue, and I think it's an issue that's got to be dealt with if you like jointly between the local authority and the schools, we couldn't impose it. Well, I'd have to come back on that one, only in the sense that what are you expecting schools to do to mediate between their parents and the council, because what are the school, I mean as a school head teacher, I want to say to children to be wise. I'm conscious that I think we're sort of crossing the line into the work that Andy Waits' panel will be doing, but I think everybody recognises the sentiments that both Joanna and you are expressing, and everybody knows that it's not easy to resolve. So I'm going to leave this with Andy, and I expect to have some contributions on this matter at our next panel meeting, which involves the children spiritually. Thank you. Robin, is it on this point? On this point, I was just trying to make the point, because it's an issue up in West Africa, a parent's parking and getting the children to school, that there is a difference, I think, between a planned, get to your charter school safely policy, which quite rightly, it should be led by the local authority, but also the responsibility of schools to be good neighbours and to be talking to their parents and their staff about parking and the rest in the neighbourhood around the school. So I just want to bring that point up, because I think it's diverting slightly from the discussion about a safe way to get to school. Thank you, Robin. Right, I'm going to leave this item now, but I'm sure Andy will be very happy to take any comments at his panel when this item is on the agenda. David. Thanks, Jeff, regarding the language for life report, do we know how many children revolved in Project Year 1 and Project Year 2? We do, yes, I don't have the figures turned, but we can certainly get you that information. Thank you. And I suppose, do we know how many in the red and amber groups were then ultimately referred on, were they referred on earlier than they would have been? And the reason I'm asking really is sort of the downstream effects, because we know that speech and language therapy, in particular, is in scarce supply. And how many of those children actually would have caught up anyway? And I suppose how many, we know that up to a quarter of kids with speech and language delay, have actually problems with hearing. So we sort of assess some of the downstream issues and potential effects that they may have on some of those services. So I've captured that correctly, so the numbers involved, the numbers that we've read, how many of those in red were referred on to speech and language? And how many subsequently caught up? Or would have caught up anyway, really, both. Oh, sorry. I've captured those questions and I can ask Julie to lead the project to see if we've got that information. David, if you turn your microphone off, thank you, then can we, when you take it upon yourself then, Chris, to give David that answer before the next meeting, which, because obviously that would be in two months' time, so I think otherwise it just becomes a sort of a very slow conversation. I've got Paul and then I'll take Andy and then Ruth, is it all on the same? Yes, I think that's probably too long a delay. I think the normal answer is that we'd give the answer within three days and I think we'll work to that. That would be the sensible thing to do. Yes, thank you. Could that be to everybody, not of course. Was that the point you wanted to raise, Ruth? Andy. One's a different question, is that okay? David, did you have any more questions? Okay. Andy. Thank you, Tia. You mentioned children's homes in Baines and in my ward, we have a new children's home, which I think is just opened. It's called Shalom and it's run by private authority and it has four children in a maximum. I just wondered what the local authority's position or responsibility is for a private children's home, such as that. I don't understand how the two link together. Thank you, Tia. When I mentioned children's homes, I think I was talking about a slightly different approach to the one that you've mentioned, Councillor Waid. I'm talking about that in the report that Mr. Wilford's going to be presenting later, we'll be talking about the AP school, the new 120-place free school, where those schools are going to be located, and the accommodation that's going to be provided hopefully on the chart and the house site, all of which are actually making it easier for parents with S.E.N.D. problems to actually have accommodation and actually deal with their needs within our community. We then—my logic was then taking me that children's homes run by local authorities increasingly had been done away with, and they'd been done away with by this local authority, and then we were having, as a local authority, to send children outside of our area to actually get that care provided, and that worked really well for a good number of years, but the independent providers, their costs have gone up and up and up, and it's been a real issue for us as a local authority without that accommodation within its area, and I've said that perhaps what we should be looking to do is to see if and how we can actually bring children back into our area and how we can deal with them, because when you're talking about S.E.N.D., we tend to say, well, we're dealing with education-send, and we're dealing with children's services in two separate boxes, but often if you come at that from the young person's point of view, about 40% of those children fit into both camps, and it's whether we should be thinking about looking at children's homes in the same way as the DFE has been supporting the accommodation for S.E.N.D. pupils. So there is an issue there that I thought perhaps we should have a look at it, but with the other things that are going on at the moment, I've said that what we're trying to do is to do a feasibility study during the summer so that we can actually look to see whether it works. We've had one meeting with the corporate property people to see how that could naturally be developed, and it isn't straightforward, and it probably wouldn't be one home, you probably need to have several different accommodation means because the needs of the individual have to be dealt with on a one-to-one basis, basically. So it's not something that you can just wave a magic wand at, but it is something that I think we should be looking at to see whether we can be more sympathetic to children, because if you think about those children having to go out of our area, even if their day cases are going out of the area, then get large traffic costs, transport costs. So I think there's a real need for us to see whether we can do it. In the past it has been looked at, Chair, I think probably in your day, and it didn't stack up financially, but I do think the world has changed a lot since COVID, and it's whether and how we could not, without moving forward in terms of children's services as opposed to the SCND issues, and whether we can actually fact overlap the two, because I think quite clearly they could be. So I don't think the children's home that you've referred to is one that is on my radar, and I'm looking at Mary Curly and I was to see whether she could answer the specific around that, please. Chair, I'm ordinarily concerned with if a provider is moving into the local authority, they would notify the local authorities commission and contracting team that they're looking to set up, because every residential provider must be registered with Oxford, and for the local authority to use that provider, we would have to ensure it meets those compliance, so I will just set a note to our commissioning and contracts manager to see if they'd be notified. We are aware there is one charitable organization that are looking to set up them within the ends, but that's not any of my familiar with at the moment, but I can safely find out, because that would be the ordinary approach, so we would be notified that somebody, and because obviously there might be some requirements for unplanning, and so on and so forth, and they've also got to be off-step compliant before they can open, but I'm happy to take that together, and come back to you directly. Does that answer your question, Andy? I'm sure the answer will come, Chair. Thank you. Okay. So any more questions to the – sorry, I forgot to finish my sentence there, Liz. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's good to see that the St John's Foundation, their project, with language is making such a difference, and it's closing the attainment gap, it's good to see. Could you remind us, Paul, which two schools, the two key areas of the local authority, where this has been carried out, and could you remind us which two areas they are? And then I'm really pleased to see that there's going to be a double rollout, again, with 45 settings and places in our area, such as Radstock, Midsomer, Norton and Paulton, so not just bath centric. But I'm just wondering, what are these settings? Are they – are they going to be in nurseries, or where are they going to be, are they going to be in primary schools? Because it's really good to see the project expanding, and so it's not just two areas that are going to be covered with this. So I just wondering if you could enlighten us on that. To Chris, please. The first two areas, I believe, are to it in a white way, but I – I will double check that for you. And the future rollouts will be a combination of nurseries, standalone nurseries, private voluntary sector, and also nurseries in primary schools, the idea is to reach out to all settings through this next double rollout, so it's a really ambitious piece by the team. So – If I could ask supplementary, Chris, so what is the criteria that these schools' nurseries are being selected? Is it the number of free school meal youngsters, or pupil premium, or what's the criteria? In the first rollout, that was the criteria, as well as schools with nurseries, which were willing to participate, and which was all the ones we approached in the next criteria. We are looking to approach all nurseries, so we can make sure that all children are able to benefit from the work that language will, like, host and deliver. Can I just say that St. John's came along to the Health and Wellbeing Board and made a presentation, and normally we have a representative on that, but I don't think you were there Robin this time, but it was – so I'm more than happy making sure that the minutes of that are actually available, because it really does strike me sometimes, that we have the Health and Wellbeing Board with a really quite a dynamic agenda, and then this committee is picking up the Health and Wellbeing of young people. So I think there is an issue there that we do need to make sure that the minutes come through to this committee, because I think there's a real gap there between the understanding between us, and I think Councillor MOS being at the committee on a normal basis is really worthwhile, and perhaps we should be thinking about feeding back more positively the types of issues that come up at the Health and Wellbeing Board. Thank you. I think we would welcome the minutes from the Health and Wellbeing Board at this time, for this panel. Thank you. Good question. Otherwise we have to rely on Robin substituting all the time. Okay. I have Robin and I'll bring you in, Ruth. Yes, it was just about additional questions to you, Paul. I've seen that you're going to be hanging around to take questions on the safety valve update on the specific item. I'm afraid so. Cheers. Ruth. Yeah, I was just going to say any of us Councillors at least can read the minutes from the Health and Wellbeing Board meetings on, you know, if you just sign up to what's it called again? Where we see all of our minutes and so on, and the agenda for all of these meetings, it's listed there, so that's very nice if you have them sent to us especially, but in fact you can look at them directly. Thank you. Thank you, Ruth. It's always simpler and easier for us to receive minutes, isn't it? And I absolutely take on board, though, the point that you make that for any meeting that you can get the agenda and the minutes through our sort of diary of meetings, et cetera. Paul. Yeah, I don't think I was necessarily saying that we would just bring the minutes. I think the issue is that we had the annual report from Children's Services there. We discussed quite a few development issues, and I think what I'm saying is that there's one place here where we talk about things and one place over there, and if there are any relevant issues, it would be sensible for us to make sure we don't just deal with the two as two separate pots. So it isn't just about the minutes, it's about what the issues were, so that we can, if you like, in the appendix of my report, do a report back, because they're infrequent the meetings, but they are really worthwhile to the community, and when I was at the other side of the table, I used to feel quite disorientated because those discussions were taking place separately to the committee, and I do really think it is sensible for us to actually bring forward some of the items that were there, and if we're all there, we can answer that any queries that are raised on that. I don't want to repeat the meeting, because it goes on for two or three hours, but I do think there is some sense in us actually communicating effectively with your committee chair. Thank you. Okay, I will take back the welcoming of the whole minutes. We will just have a distilled version as part of your cabinet report, so that will be very kind and very helpful, and also, just to remind everybody, there's Councillors or members of the public, that I believe that they should be welcome to attend any health and well-being forward meeting as well, yes, because it is open to the public. Okay. Thank you. It came along to one recently, and it came up again at this last meeting around vapes, disposable vapes, and I just sent a note through to Councillor Molloy telling her what that was actually discussed. So it is important that if people have got the time to come along, then you'll always be very welcome. Just remind me, is that one webcast? Is that one webcast? No. No, so you have to attend it in person. Okay. Okay, then I think that I might be the last person to speak on this agenda item on the cabinet members' update, and I'm sure you've been waiting to hear what I was going to ask about Culver Hay, and obviously, you touched on it briefly when you're talking about skills, and I think it would just be useful to learn, and perhaps some of this will be picked up in the part of the meeting when we're talking about safety valve, and the role that I believe Culver Hay School will have in that, or the site of Culver Hay School, but for a long time, it's been being explored, hasn't it, that the skills agenda could be met on that site? Are you saying, when you were talking about the Son of Valley Enterprise, so that it is now more likely that skills and the sort of training for in skills is going to happen on the college site in Westfield? Not necessarily Westfield. The point was that the college decided not to go with the development to Culver Hay because it would have been to a new building, as opposed to adapting the existing buildings, and under those circumstances, it's still in my head that we should be looking to find a site with the college around advanced skills, and part of my thoughts were that if there's going to be a development at Son of Valley Enterprise Zone, that we should perhaps be looking for something there, but it's how do we actually get that working effectively, because there is still a real gap in terms of young people in Bath in particular, and whether outside of Bath is the right solution or not. I need to be continuing those discussions with the college. There are options within the city, but at the moment, their problem is that they're going to have capital funding to actually do anything, and the college at the moment is just going through a period of change. So, I can't give you a specific answer in terms of Culver Hay, and I can't give you a specific answer yet whether the issue around the free school and the AP, whether that is going to Culver Hay, because it's a corporate property of the Culver Hay site, it has to go via the cabinet, and that is a meeting on the 6th of June, I think, when a decision will be made, whether that's the location for the two provisions. Thank you, Paul, and before I bring Robin in, I just want to just add one more reminder that another important community facility on that site is the swimming pool, and I'm sure you'll be factoring that in as well. I'm not certain that's a discussion particularly for this committee, but I'm sure that at the appropriate time when it goes through the cabinet that people will have the chance to raise that. I've held two meetings with local members about all the issues around the existing provision on the site, and that is going to be reported back at the next meeting when it is dealt with. Thank you very much, Paul. Robin, who I believe is determined to have the last word. Well, I don't think I will be, because as we're reopening the discussion on the Selma Valley Enterprise Zone, which is interesting, and I don't think possibly to the right place, it's interesting to hear that's an idea for skills and skills learning on that particular site, but surely the local development order that has been through cabinet was actually quite specific about land use with there, and while I think it's an interesting discussion to have, please come here and make sure that it's in the context of decisions already made, and a great deal of local controversy about the use of that site, and the fact that this is webcast, I'm sure, is going to generate a little bit more discussion about that. Councillor Ossey, Councillor Moss is quite right, there's complications around the planning approval for that site, and I don't think the officers are particularly keen at this stage to actually go through that process all over again, so there may be a complication around that, and I understand the sensitivity at local level around that site. I suppose where I'm coming at it from is I think that if it's about creating jobs for local people, then we actually should be thinking about those local people coming through into the system rather than just people within the community that could have jobs there, so I've been working with Councillor Roper about how this moves forward, but certainly the officers at the moment are really quite nervous around going through the whole planning process all over again, but I'm just coming at this from the needs of young people within the area, and I would like to think that we couldn't actually use that example as something that can actually help young people in the midst of an ordinary and potent area in the future. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. I'm now going to ask Paul May to turn his microphone off. That's okay. I'm finishing that item and we're now moving on to—this is such a snappy title—the Bain, Swindon, Wiltshire, Integrated Care Board Update, so over to you Laura for any additions to your report. Councillor interjecting. Thank you very much, Chair, and I've just got three areas I think that I'd like to highlight for the panel today, and all hopefully good news and positive progress. So the first one is around health inequalities. Members may recall that we've spoken about this before, a reminder that the BSW Integrated Care Board has been working alongside partners, in particular the local authority, to allocate some health inequalities funding. So working with our Bain's Integrated Care Alliance, we established a cross-partnership health inequalities network in Bain's. So you might remember that that meant that we had individuals placed in our acute hospital in our UH with primary care and also in the local authority themselves so that they could coordinate fantastic work around health inequalities. So making sure that we understand and are able to map and evidence local need and health inequalities in particular, awareness raising and supporting outreach events and then coordinating any health inequality related funding streams. Now the panel may remember that last year, for example, we allocated funding through a quartet foundation who worked in partnership with five charitable organisations. And I just have one example, and I'm going to suggest a chair that subject to members views. You might want an update of this at a future meeting around evaluation, but just to give you a flavour and a reminder of those catalyst grants. This was around cost of living grants and things like warm homes, etc. So we had one which was the West of England Rural Network, or one of the five charities, others included age UK, and many others, Julian House, etc. But the Wern example had 60 beneficiaries of direct grants, nine of them lived alone, 20 lived with family members varying from either one partner to five individuals in the household. And when they did their evaluation, they set out nine categories of how did it make a difference to you, what was the difference that it made in your life. And so the sorts of things just to give you a flavour that were coming through, no money for non-essentials, 35 beneficiaries identified that, that their income wasn't covering outgoings, 41 identified with that. Sadly that they couldn't afford food each week, 34 of those 60 beneficiaries identified with that. And things like unexpected bills that would just be impossible to cover without this grant, 51 identified with that. And alongside that, we had some case studies that have lived experience, the live voice. So I wanted to chair if panel members would find that useful, we'll certainly bring that back. Excuse me. And I'm pleased to say that in this round of funding, 24, 25, we have now awarded 12 schemes. And again, just to give you a flavour and these are set out in my report. One, for example, is an inclusive after-school club for those with SEND. We have perinatal mental health support, targeted family support for vulnerable families in Twerton. Remember, one of the key priorities is supporting not just individuals, but their parents care as supporters. And a new service for people that are experiencing homelessness to access end of life care. So all of these schemes were identified through a very robust process where we identified key criteria. So specifically around things like our core 20 plus five health inequality indicators. So we know those most vulnerable groups. But it was having that local flavour, that local information and understanding local need. And as you can see, it's quite a granular detail there. So those schemes are really targeting individuals and communities that really need it and really making a difference. So hopefully members will agree that's hugely positive. And I would just like to extend our thanks because that's been a real cross-working achievement. So working directly with directors of public health and working directly with local authority officers and others in the Integrated Care Alliance. So if I may try, I'll move on to the second update, which again, another positive update. And this is the Royal United Hospital in Bath, have been awarded 21.6 million for energy efficient projects. And this is to help them achieve their net zero ambitions. So their intention is that by 2026, it will result in an estimated 24% annual reduction in their carbon emissions or the ones which the IOH have direct control over. So the sorts of things that they're looking to fund include environmentally friendly lighting, insulation, heating and cooling controls. And that was a grant that was awarded by the Department for Energy Security. So as you can imagine, that was really greatly received. And we look with interest to see what will happen as that project continues. And then finally, Chair, if I may, just to bring to your attention a small update on the dental vans, which I know this committee has absolutely championed and spoken about. And Councillor Wright has helped promote. So I know that this committee will be aware that on the 7th of February, the Department of Health and Social Care published its dental recovery plan. And you'll see that in there, alongside the ambitions to make access to dental services fair or simpler, et cetera, one of the key priorities was around dental vans. So the scope and work to look at that is underway. I understand Lucy highlighted that to you last time. So the update for this time is that we're now looking at options. They're being appraised. So this is nationally there. They have been mapping, if you like, details nationally of existing vehicles and what staffing structures could look like relative to those three different treatment types. So options are now being appraised for, you know, acquisition of vehicles, market engagement, exercise, procurement, et cetera. So we're keen, as you know, in BSW, that we will support those plans. It will supplement the ongoing work that you referred to earlier with your public health teams. And this has been presented through the ICB Board as well on the 20th of March. So we will use that collective learning to keep promoting that, as we said. But, crucially, we are also looking at other non-van options, of course. The work doesn't stop on that. So things like the use of local facilities for pop-ups, that sort of thing. In terms of the vans themselves, as I understand it, we're working across the southwest to identify specific areas, with a view that the service will commence around September, October 2024. But, again, we'll keep a watching brief on that and bring that back to this committee. So they're just the highlights. Thanks, Chair. Thank you, Laura. Joanna. Thank you, Laura. It's good to know that you come to this meeting and it makes a difference to something. So that's enormous news about the dental vans. Within the scoping work that you're going to do, I mean, if we're promoted here to begin with, do we get first-dibs? I certainly know that there's lots of residents that would really value that van turning up near to them. So how is that going to work? Because it is a large area that you have to cover. So I recognize that. Yeah. So essentially, how they're looking at it is that they're mapping where those vulnerable populations and communities are. And clearly, it needs to be where we can work with our communities and where they'll be receptive. So yes, I know that, you know, Baines is on the map on the radar, as it were. So I'm very sure that we would have some qualifying areas, of course, because we know that we've got those pockets of deprivation and vulnerable communities. So that that will form part of the criteria. So I can't say for certain at this moment, but of course, all of that is known and will be modelled as we move forward what that service specification could look like. And also, do we have enough dentists and dental practitioners around that to support those vans? Yeah, indeed. So that's why I was trying to pull out and report the two key issues. I think it's acquisition of the vehicles and trying to understand that population dynamic, but also the staffing models and what the structure could look like. And that will be relative to those levels of treatment, of course. So they're looking at innovative ways in how they can look at those staffing models. So I think, again, one to keep a watching brief on about how that can work pragmatically, I guess. Just following up from the dental vans themselves, and again, not trying to make this political book recognizing that NHS dentists aren't paid enough to run an NHS practice. How do we address that? So that's part of the wider work that your remember Victoria came and spoke to us previously. So looking again at the structure of those contracts and the payment by dental units, you remember that Victoria came and talked to us about that. That work is ongoing. Obviously, it's known that this is a structural fundamental issue and we need to keep working with our dentists and with other colleagues to see how we can make that sustainable across BSW. But it's not just BSW, as you know, it's a national issue. Yeah. So I'm just looking at you, Chair, is there any way that we as a committee can do a piece of work that goes to national government to say, you know, our experience over the last years on pushing for dental care is that the NHS dentists aren't paid enough to run their practices? You know, is there something that we could do as a council? Laura, what is the work that's being done through the BSWICB on that specific point about making sure that government is aware of specific needs in specific regions? Yeah. So there's a couple of dimensions to it. So there's something around how we can use our commissioning levers because we do have some of those to be able to allocate for those dentists that have the capacity and are able to. We can commission them to do more dental activity. So that's something that's within our gift. There's obviously then identifying where the need is arising. So there are the two bits of, I guess, work that we're looking at mapping. In terms of how we're then linking, clearly we're doing this through, you'll remember when we were allocated those responsibilities, we were working with the Southwest Commissioning Hub, so we have the benefits of working through that hub and sharing learning with others of the ICBs across the Southwest. So Chair, if I may, I suggest if I take that back to colleagues in the ICB and I know that we come with regular updates in any event, that could be one of the parts of the update that we give next time in terms of how we progress with that work and what that shared learning looks like and the level of communication that we're having both regionally and nationally. Thank you, Laura. Kevin, then David, and then Ruth. Thank you, Chair. First of all, yes, I'm good to hear the good news around the RUH and the funding quality is a bit. A couple of points, one around the quality is funding and one around the dental ban. On the quality is funding. I mean, obviously it's great that you're helping people. I mean, there's no two ways about that. Just wondered how much of the spending that that involves and have no idea about the overall sum. Whether that can only be allocated reactively, whether there's anything more proactive to stop the reactive spending, if you know what I mean. It's absolutely perfect sense and I think that's where the term left shift has been coined, isn't it? So prevention and avoidance, so rather than spending at the other end of the spectrum when things are potentially reactive, as you describe, or trying to fix a problem, is the stuff that we can do earlier on, earlier intervention to help. So absolutely, we've tried to be proactive, particularly with the second round of funding. So we've had a series of criteria where we were looking at what it is that we wanted to commission, I guess, or what it is that we wanted to invest and fund. So as opposed to, because the funding is modest, I will say that. It's in the order of 300,000 across banes. But of course, for those individuals and for those organisations, that money can actually go very far. And this is one of those examples where actually unlocking the potential of our third sector and actually responding to an identified need and getting that to the local communities that need it, you can demonstrate that actually it's an modest amount of funding that can go quite far. So I think for us, it was really trying to target areas where we knew we could make a difference that were relative to what the population health management data were telling us. So hence, things like working with send families, making sure that we were trying to have equal access of opportunity, things like mental health support, etc. That was quite a deliberate choice, I guess, a proactive choice in terms of what we wanted to invest in. I think the first round of funding, although still a choice, clearly that was more reactive because we were reacting to the issues that we were seeing in the cost of living crisis. So it's a flexibility to do a bit of both, I guess. But there is that rigor there that we are trying to identify and target investment deliberately and trying to focus on that prevention and avoidance end. And the bit around the dental vans, I was just trying to understand from what you were saying, whether this is how much local influence you actually have, is this being sort of a national thing that is being offered out and coordinated nationally when you're saying that they're looking at where vans are wearing whatever. And what is the sort of ability for you to say, you know, we want X here and we want to pay for X, Y or Z, or is this just being given to you that you're going to make this as best you can as a resource that you've been given? Yeah, I think it is that it is something that is a national policy directive that is being looked at. So the specification won't be done locally, it will be done nationally or regionally and we will need to respond to that. So I think it's an influencing space that we're in, which is helpful, I think, and as I say, that ability to do that as a collective of ICBs as well. Sorry, so do you think this is going to be a permanent feature of the service or is there something else that you have in mind because I thought you had control of the dental services? We do have control of the, we have been allocated control of the dental services but the specification for the dental vans is a national policy that's coming down that we then need to respond to. So quite where that responsibility lies in terms of how we design it, I'm not sure yet. And I've mentioned that in our report. So I think, again, when we come back with that dental update, we can provide a bit more information around how that is looking. Well, luckily your microphone wasn't on. Thank you Kevin, thank you Laura. I'm moving on that to David and then Ruth. Thank you Laura. How will the mapping process work in the rural areas across Spain? Will it differ at all from some of the more urban areas? And is there anything the ward council can do to assist you in engaging the communities to give you more granular data? They're both very good questions. I'm afraid I don't have answers to them at this moment in time but my colleague Victoria, I think if I could play those back to her and we will come back to you, thank you for the offer of assistance it is. Yeah, be very happy to assist in any way. Yes, thank you because quite often as we all know, quite often having that member and political support does make a huge difference, so thank you. Thank you Laura and a very good suggestion David. Ruth. Thank you for your report. I was wanting to ask you for more information maybe next time when you come back. On the first point about the health inequalities funding, I think it sounds very interesting the work that you're doing to support people who are experiencing homelessness to access collaborative and end of life care, so I'm really interested to hear more about that. And then the last point again, going back to the dental services, saying that you're also going to be exploring other non-ban options such as using local facilities for pop-up services, so I would like to understand that a bit more, thinking that I assume that probably only certain dental services would then be available depending on the facilities, you know, what they are and basically that is a good, I see that as a good move to kind of work on the backlog of people needing dental care but it's not a sustainable solution is it? So more information about that be really welcome to thank you. Yeah very happy to add that into the next update, the dental updates and you're right and that's why I was pulling out it depends on the different activity levels if you remember there are three activity levels for dental treatment and hence the staffing models they are going to need to look at that carefully and you're right the facilities as well. So it's complex but we'll bring that to a future update when we have the dental update and again the homelessness project with end of life care will be mapped to. Thank you Laura. I'm not seeing any other hands apart from Kevin's. Thank you Laura there was just not necessarily on what you've written down on this report today but there was a full quick point that maybe you were coming back on but you might not have the answers yet and one of them was still around the send representative and their role and their interconnections and where they feed into and why and how and anything more around pins which Lucy mentioned last time the the inclusion of it around neurodiversity in schools and what that is for and how it's working and what it's doing. We raised the thing with Lucy last week about the capacity of pharmacies particularly staffing and everything else that they've seen to now have taken on and how do they cope and there's been a lot in their local news about that. Lucy mentioned around the role of police and mental health incidents whether there was anything updating on that there has been looked into and if they're not responding who is and finally I believe Lucy was going back with an update of how they progress now because there was a requires improvement situation and anything around with personally with a daughter and a daughter-in-law have experienced problems with birth trauma which seem to have hit the news this morning. If I may chair we can come back with either written updates if that would be helpful on on those points that have been raised or we can include them in future updates if you would like a bit more time to discuss some of them. I guess just very briefly touching on them the send representative we were going to suggest actually that we have a follow-up session with you just to try and understand a bit more what level of detail and information might be helpful and then we can think about whether that would be helpful for the wider committee. The sort of simple straight answer which I think Lucy may have conveyed last time is that Jill May who is our Chief Nursing Officer is the official ICB designated representative for send but as I alluded to previously it's slightly more complex than that in that as some of you know I'm the exactly for learning disabilities and autism and we support working with the local authority the local area inclusion boards or they vary in title across the different localities so we have different roles that we make sure that we play consistently into each of those send inclusion partnerships and working jointly in each of the localities so it's something that I think it would be helpful if we could have a discussion on what level of detail would be useful and then we can bring that back by way of update and then in terms of the pins project it's brilliant I wish I had more time to talk about it right now but I'll certainly bring that back to a future committee if that would be useful so this is about helping schools to be more inclusive for those that have got neurodiversity and schools we've worked with them to identify who would be able to provide that support and that project is progressing really well and it's had a very challenging turnaround so huge effort by everybody involved and then yeah of course written answers I think on the capacity round pharmacy services in RUH and I have to say in terms of mental health and the police we've got a really strong relationship with Avon and Somerset police and they have been actually very constructive in how they work with us with it's clearly an area of demand that we're seeing and it's just about how different organisations work together respective in their roles because clearly pressure and one part of the system was we know can then put pressure on another part of the system so I hope that covers off a little bit but acknowledge that we've got a bit more to come back on more formally. Thank you Laura and I note that Kevin also mentioned the item that was on the news this morning around birth trauma and complications so I'm sure we would appreciate that on your next report as well thank you and my only other comment really is around the phrase that you use about proactive prevention and that feels like a common theme a common thread throughout so much of the the work of the council and therefore what we scrutinise as well and I think it's good to see that it's recognised but it would be also I think helpful and I don't know how this will ever happen until it becomes a statutory duty to see how that that would be moved forward so that it actually underpinned everything that we do instead of everything becoming you know budgets tight and becoming reactive. Thank you. Right okay I'm now moving on to the next item which is the send home to school travel policy review so I'm going to ask Paul May to introduce this item and I'd also like to if you could turn your microphone off for a moment I haven't got to yet and then I would also like Laura I think Laura you're going to be supporting Paul in this I think it'd be very helpful just to identify what what are the changes in the policy review as well so Paul please introduce now you can turn your microphone on. Thank you Chair. I'm too enthusiastic to speak sorry. Back in January I reported that the government had passed out another piece of legislation around home to school transport and I'd read it and I'd spoken to Chris and said I don't understand the word of what they're saying it just seemed to be further complications and subsequent to that there's been discussions in the organization and I want to compliment Laura who's going to make the presentation in a minute because it was very clear that there's so much to come through from government that we were firing out I think really quite different messages to pupils to their families about home to school transport and I've seen in my area where that's affected people where they don't know what the rules are and how the council is operating those rules so I think that I'm really delighted to see this report presented this this morning and in particular I think I was when I read it I looked at the quality's impact assessment it's absolutely something that that we we often see in reports paid fairly light attention to but it's been dealt with throughout this report and picked up all the issues that have been in the report and with a sensible issue there in response to it but this is a report that's in consultation at the moment so if there are sensible points that can make this morning I'm sure the officers will pick them up and we'll be able to actually get those built into the report and I also last week had a meeting with the parent carers forum and quite clearly they were really engaged in this exercise and they were complimenting pains for the way that they were actually talking to them and I think that's a really good issue and when I was talking about the health and well-being board they they did a report about school trauma you were talking about birth trauma just now but there's also young people when they're at school there's a number of young people actually traumatized by school and I thought that was a really positive report so I've gone off on when I apologize to that chair but I think this report is a really really comprehensive report and we are here with a view of listening and responding as best we can thank you chair thank you Paul Laura did you have anything you wanted to add sorry Laura I don't think your microphone is on it's otherwise oh it it's otherwise you see your wise words won't be webcast [Music] so good morning everyone sorry about that so you've received the information that you need not to have a look at the new SCND homeschool transport policy so this is for our young people who have education health and care plans or disabilities that mean that it's very difficult for them to travel to school or perhaps their most local appropriate school is further than we might usually expect a school to be so over three miles and therefore they need support in order to get to school the reason for the new policy as Councillor May said is some new government guidance that came out in January but actually when we had a look at our policy it was outdated the language that it used was outdated and it was difficult to understand for our parents and carers and families but also for our officers who were using that policy day-to-day to make decisions around who qualified for or what type of transport was appropriate for young people so we took the opportunity to do to read raft and we write in consultation with many partners but extensively with parent care forum our bank parent care forum we ran six consultation meetings with parents and carers spoke with our schools transport companies and we will you'll see a full list of everybody that we contacted in order to try and get this right for our families and listen to the feedback that they gave to us you'll see on one of the slides the main concerns were around what would happen with my schooling now are you trying to move my child to another school because of transport costs and we'll say are you acting in a way that might discriminate against my child for any reason or make it more difficult for them or not as easy as it could be for them to get to school would like to take the opportunity to reassure counselors and other colleagues and that that isn't the case each young person has a review every year of their transport as of the course as part of their annual review and during that time we will speak to parents about opportunities for different types of transport but we do not have any targets or any move to force parents to move to other kinds of transport but there are occasions when other options are much much more beneficial for families and young people and they can also be lower cost as well and so we have a duty to speak to families about that and have a look at how that could improve their experience of getting to school and of course with our new schools opening soon relatively soon we hope in the next few years lots of our families took the opportunity to talk to me about how do they find a school that's closer to home so actually a lot of families want to be reconsidered for closer closer schools also there's a quite happy way where they are in a school that might be out of county and so there's some work to do as a planning to do around that to make sure every young person has the opportunity to attend a school that's close to where they live and within their community whenever possible and that's part of the planning for our new schools but of course for today it's the home to school transport policy that i'm here to talk about and so just open to any questions from any of you regarding that okay thank thank you Laura I'm going to ask Robin to make any comments because I think this came via your scrutiny panel earlier this year yeah thanks very much Chair thank you for the report it's very comprehensive very interesting in the way that those questions are being put and framed and the way that there have been changes in government policy and the consequences of that but of course the big picture is actually wider than just in than just this review and one of the reasons it came from the corporate scrutiny panel also as part of the budget process are the consequences the intersecting issues with this policy and the first one of course is the financial consequences of a policy like this and and what that will mean to a budget that is very considerably overspent and i'm trying to make sure i'm careful with the words i'm using with this there's the consequences for for young people and their families who are currently being provided with a service and and it may well be that professionally or corporately we might see an alternatively an alternative services is better and cheaper the parents or families may want to do that because that involves change and that's understandable how how that would be the case but it's making sure that new families coming into the system get the appropriate offer but there's also i think the need to review where we are at the moment how how do we get to the point that we are at the moment particularly when it comes to overspend and the rest how can we ensure because over the reason for overspend is is i have to say an incorrect assessment of what the consequences of a policy will be what the financial consequences will be and making sure that we're using our resources that the resources that we pay for to the best of our ability and i know it's anecdotal but we do hear any little evidence about using very expensive taxi services which actually don't have anyone within those taxis so a pay for services that we're not getting anything from so going backwards slightly thank you for the report but i know it's a a report that fits into a much wider framework because of the budget consequences thank you thank you i don't know if you wanted to respond to any of those those comments i think it's appropriate for me to answer that because it's a dangerous territory that we're in in terms of the budgets but quite clearly most of everything that that's driving this report has been set down by instructions if you like from government and under those circumstances our policy was was i think really quite confusing and it is sensible for us to have a sensible way that we're dealing with this moving forward the the process around procurement of transport services after that is a separate exercise that will be going on and and it is important that we actually get a sensible set of documents that have set out around the government instructions around home to school transport and we actually do that job properly so i think we're here today to look at the implications of this document around is it correct and fair rather than is it going to cost a fortune and then then we have to deal with the costing the procurement of these services correctly improperly afterwards so i know that's not going to that's not going to satisfy your query but the simple fact is we've got to have this correctly laid out for parents so they know what their rights are and how we're actually operating as a local authority let's come back to Paul on that i'm not sure i totally agree with that linear approach if you get a policy and therefore you you go down to the procurement and and the financial consequences surely part of framing a policy is the national government's guidance but equally the resources that you have within the within your area so that it is a i'd say a two-way relationship two-way process rather than whether you meant it or not the lineal process that you described thank you chair yes no i i i don't disagree with what you were saying councilor i think what i'm trying to say is that we the the policy that we are almost saying we didn't have we needed to be clarified the government came out with the latest set of information back in january and it was very clear that that if we had tried to implement that separately with everything else that had gone on we needed to have clarity in the way that we actually had a policy and i don't think that was specifically and it quite clearly is built into the policy that we we want to see the the best solutions for young people both financially and in terms of those young people so i i think it's not gone on without any regard to the cost but it is something that i think we needed to have clarity for parents in particular to know what the home to school transport arrangements were which is why i've answered rather than law rather than putting her into a difficult position but she probably is much more able to answer that than i am but i've taken on the political point that we've got to be very mindful and i think it's true to say i'm looking across to my right that that we're genuinely worried about the home school transport costs and i think just to add to that without wanting to delve into much into the political part of it some of the points that we've clarified within there are things like the option for a family to have a budget themselves to pay for transport for example to pay for mileage rather than us providing transport and those those clarifications weren't in there before and so it wasn't clear to parents that it could be beneficial for them and also better for the public purse to find a local arrangements such as another family member driving at a child or young person to school that way they also go to school having been driven by somebody they know really well a lot more adjusted easier transition into school etc etc and so those things weren't clear in the previous policy whilst they were mentioned it wasn't you understand it wasn't easy to understand for our parents and carers also there's reference in there to you shared transport mini buses etc and we've tried to to increase the reference to those to help parents and carers understand that it might not be a lone taxi because that's often the preferred method of transport and tried to nod to why it won't always be a lone taxi although sometimes it might be so we've done what we can within that but I think to echo council's may point council may's point we've tried to what we've done here has taken the guidance that's come from government which is quite clear about when we should and shouldn't offer transport and update our policy with them how we procure taxis etc is is a separate issue to our responsibility to government to do that in my opinion thank thank you Laura I'm sure Robin can pick up some of those points in his own panel in due course um Liz thank you very thanks to the report Laura and for your your information as well Paul think about this policy is that that don't seem to be very many changes and I would like you you're right give us my question you've you've you've shaken your head but from the point of view of us as a panel the three main changes one which is obviously quite concerning and obviously is there for really for a financial point of view if a child is going to attend in a special needs school which is further away than another school that is equally as appropriate that you know that that would the child would then have to attend that nearest appropriate school with all the emotional impact that would happen on the child and parents so that's the first main change I believe second change is that it's very clear I mean you mentioned it yourself Laura and I think that the information for parents now is very clear and it's clarified exactly what's on the table exactly what they could expect whereas before there was no guidance now there is guidance and then the other thing about seat belts you know that parents have got to provide those and I know as a grandparent how expensive they can be and I just wondered are you soon there's some car seats thank you not seat belts so I assumed that there would be some help there for parents who would find that quite hard um to afford so really what has changed um I mean what we are interested in is digging down deeper into procurement I know you've mentioned poor and the fact that there is wastage and I'm not going to go into that we all know about taxis turning up and not being filled and things like that so there is something that that can be done there and there are other ideas for cutting the huge overspend in public transport in the transport the home school transport so we wondered would could this not be part of our overall policy that we have something about how we how we look at the overall picture of home to school transport and with the view to looking at the ways that we we actually do it so um really my question is what's changed you've already said not much but perhaps you might answer some of the other queries as well thank you you know so there are 11 points in the new guidance that we had to include within our policy and we only had four of them and and it's small things on paper like referencing to other legislation or to other parts of our websites or to live well bains and that kind of thing but that's the main thing that we were missing these seven points that had to go in there to be to meet the guidance your question around nearest appropriate school that's been in the code of practice since 2015 it's just it wasn't in our policy and so when our send practitioners worked with parents to talk about which school the child or young person would attend we would always say to them that it needed to be the nearest appropriate school and appropriate is the important word there nearest appropriate school and not just the nearest school and where that is just marginal between two schools the distance then you know we wouldn't we wouldn't enforce that but where it's the difference between a 15-minute journey and an hour and a half journey of course we're going to be saying that we feel that they need to go to the local school so there's nothing that's changed in practice around that it just wasn't explicitly in the policy before and so it's about us trying to be transparent but I think our parents and carers who have the HCPs would be very aware through conversations with their practitioner that that was always the case and that sometimes we would ask them if they wanted a further away school to pick up the transport costs or partial transport costs in order to fund taking the child to a further away school if that was their choice as for car seats that is an ongoing issue of course however we it's for a very very small number of children and young people because we only transport for compulsory school age in the main part for most of those children and young people don't have car seats they're highly specialized car seats often and so it's not something that we can you know just buy from from a local dealership or whatever you know we have to have very very specialized car seats and it's often felt that rather than have them used say once in the morning then you you're talking about storage dropping them off taxi companies that aren't going into a depot you know they're going around and doing other drops then having that car seat with them but then leaving out the school picking it back up etc was more effective and useful for the children and young people we are finding it very very difficult to have taxi companies who would provide the car seats as well so there is a procurement issue around that because of the fitting of the seat so I understand that could be difficult for families but we would want to have discussions with them around that I'm sure we can find solutions it is a very very small number of young people that we're talking about with that and as for other changes within the policy that's really it we had to move to those those additional seven things that we had to put in and some clarity around things we were doing is ways of working but not didn't have written down anywhere but you're right it's not a huge change thank you very much I think you've explained exactly why you can't pursue this much further but thank you thank you Liz and Laura Kevin and then David thank you Chair thank you Laura and the report yeah and a couple of things the guidance presumably is now in place and the policy is now in place so how much now is when does this policy is implemented from this moment in time for all new people and new people applying for this travel policy are you trying to because in the policy it says you know in theory I know there's a catchall phrase which says most appropriate for the child which is good because that's obviously what we're trying to do but in theory there are certain things that say well if you can go to the school then we're not going to pay you to go to that school as you mentioned just now so where are we in terms of it started and all parents now are working to this policy with you always is it still on a trajectory of it's going to start from September or where we're about to start for the moment so we'll go to single member decision to finalize the policy on the 10th of June and then we'll set a date for it to start for new applications when we do our annual review of the education health and care plan we'll talk about transport as we always do and we'll talk about whether or not any changes are right for the family children and young people we have no plans to ask parents to move their children to other schools but we will allow our parents to have the choice of our new schools when they're opening which may well be closer to home but at the moment that's that's not something that we're we're planning to do at all we would it's not the right thing to do but we would also never be successful at tribunal over a move like that anyway so it wouldn't be a cost-effective solution for us to pursue that because it appears we you know we wouldn't be able to hold up a move around that nor would we want to if the child or young person is settled somewhere but parents and carers at consultation were really clear with me that they really a lot of them really do want to talk about the new schools when they open and really do want to be considered for days because some of these journeys these young people are doing are really unacceptable legally they might be okay you know up to an hour but for a vulnerable child you know I don't enjoy an hour commute and so I can only imagine how hard that is for a vulnerable young person to do and so a lot of our families are saying actually at annual review we do want to talk about a nearest school if it's appropriate to do so and how we support that transition etc so I think it is on a family by family basis around that and that the model for that that is through the annual review process which is obviously as part of the code of practice as statutory anyway yeah can I just sorry Jack can I just do two other points please um um Laura on page 35 uh sorry I'm recommending to just under page 36 the top of it says eligibility reviews would include specific milestones including the end of year three and I just wondered why the end of year three was a specific milestone I must have missed something a really good question I think they mean the end of year two so this is an error it should be the end of key stage one yeah key page ends yeah I think that is probably an error thank you for mentioning that we can get that changed um and the second point was around the I'm still not clear and you might not be the the purpose of what the report is today which I'll take that if it's going to come later or whatever but it was still looking at I was I didn't understand what are the key costs that are affecting school sense travel at the moment in time and what things have been trying to be done to address those which might be other things than going to the nearest school and just implementing the government guidance which may or may not have helped you in in looking at those costs so will those come separately or will they be a different discussion because they managed by the transport team rather than by myself I think if there's an appetite to have that information then the transport team would need to come and speak to that because they do the procurement and the allocation of types of transport etc my team apply a policy and then pass them over to the family over to the transport team to actually put that into fruition so we could definitely do that if that's what members would like to see but it would be from the transport team not from myself okay um so I've got Paul no I've got Chris and then Paul who wants to come in on this can you thank you for that they're really good questions in it ties into Robin's question and um uh council Hardman's question as well around the costs and the budget and things like this and today's exercise is very much about it was wanting to develop our new sean transport policy in a in a in a in a transparent way um in the lead up to where we are today there's been significant consultation with parents in lots of evening that lots of values in the evening talking about a policy because one of the things we were keen to do was make sure we did it really openly because it's quite easy to get this bit what you would think would be quite a simple process um wrong because of the financial questions that local authorities under and the need to find financial savings so today it was really about making sure that you as screw the committee were clear about the policy that we presented it doesn't have lots of change that it has more clarity and that we have been through a process with parents to be able to consult on that the budget is I think a separate discussion um which committee that goes to I wouldn't be entirely certain but in terms of um the drivers around the costs there is definite increases in in volume so if you look at some of the data that's in the next report around the increase in education health care plans that is one of the drivers second driver is the local sufficiency so places where we can meet children's needs that that has got broader and things as a geographical landscape which is meant we've incurred more costs and if we're going to schools which we don't use regularly it's likely to be a um it's not like to be an existing route so we have to procure routes but one of the biggest drivers is the pressures in contract inflection post pandemic which of course we all know about the rises in the cost of fuel those costs are passed on to um firefighters to us and we also saw a significant um retraction in the market so the people who were willing to come in bid for contracts significantly reduced over the pandemic as well possibly post Brexit there's a number of tax-affirms shifted businesses closed or moved into different things you have fewer operators in the local market bid for the contracts so therefore the the costs go up so that the cost bit is a separate discussion but one that probably needs to be had somewhere um but they're the three main drivers the answers are in partially in some of the work we're doing around a capital project which is badged under the safety of our work but it's work we would do in any way which is about making sure we've got that sufficiency link to it thank you Paul did you want to add anything yes if I can that I've sat here for a period of time where I hear nothing but disputes around the previous policy because don't forget we're talking about young people that there's new group of young people come into the system we have to deal with the volume of those young people they're all different they all live in different areas and they all have different schools which they can be going to and and I've been really clear in my mind that we needed to have a clear policy and in terms of council of mosses original query it is something that we've actually got to get the policy correct first and then the the process of the sorry I think it's my phone I'll just turn that off sorry that we then got to make sure that we're actually there's another team that's looking at the finances Chris Major and his team are actually doing that and that will be reported through to the appropriate committee at the right time and if we think that this is just something that can go on in isolation of course it can't and under those circumstances it's absolutely important that for to stop future disputes that we've actually got an agreement about the way that we're actually dealing with these in a sensible and proper way forward so the finances are relevant you know I have to sit in the cabinet when you know all the discussions are taking place around finance but the simple fact is these are the rights of young people that we're serving and it is sensible that we should have a proper policy to move it forward and I think you know great credit to Laura and her team to actually get this document here today and I think we're more than happy to listen if there's any specific changes chair that you want to put in we'll try and respond to those in a reasonable way Thank you very much Paul David and then Joanna Thank you chair thank you for your report um how many children currently receiving school transport will no longer do so under the revised policy is it many none So no it's none that the eligibility hasn't changed the type of transport might change or the type of transport that we offer might might initially be different whether it ends up different after we've spoken to families and had professional reports etc but there is no reduction in eligibility thank you Joanna and then Kevin again Thank you thank you for your report and for the various explanations today My concern is that um we need to be really thinking about the climate emergency in this and their journeys it's quite clear from what you're saying that from the parent care reform people want to take shorter journeys and they don't like the long journeys completely accept that and I accept too that from what I can gather from the papers that in some cases people be given the lumps on over a year that they can spend to ensure that they get their children to school I just wonder if there's any way we can think about that in a different way because of the climate emergency for example cargo bikes electric cargo bikes um could that be something that we actually instigate that there's a better way of getting to school that isn't by the usual car method that allows for sustainable transport to and from schools and that actually when you give people an amount of money that it could also have to they have to go through various steps where they think about electric travel um bicycle travel etc etc so that fits into the wider policy of how people then take forward that journey and consider that journey and that's a really interesting point I think um there would be a number of families interested in those discussions so that's something we could think about further I think there are quite a large number of families and children young people who it wouldn't be appropriate for them to take that type of transport or the journeys are too long for them to take that type of transport but that doesn't mean to say that we shouldn't be having that conversation so I'm very very willing to look into that for you okay so that would be really grateful that if this is a piece of policy that you're thinking of taking forward that that is considered and then going back to the issue that we raised at the earlier um conversation about school streets how do we um and and thinking about um central governments directive to local government about how they deliver better sustainable and um just trying to find the statutory guidance for travel to school again going back to school streets it says in um appendix four there's a whole piece on page 44 to 46 about delivering that aspect and creating healthy ways of generating journeys to school and again how do we work across across out of the silo of what you're doing with the the unitary authority that is bains which is the the highway authority to make sure that we are delivering those spaces so that those journeys therefore become compatible with the work that you're doing how how is there more joined up thinking across those different parts of the council I think that's something that I would need to go away and think about for you and for the majority if you think of the transport for the majority of these young people it's small mini buses driving right into the school delivering right to the door and because of the vulnerability of the young people involved and because of how difficult those transitions are these are only young people we're talking about only young people who attend specialist provisions we're not talking about mainstream schools at all and so our focus had been on shared transport around that so giving them the mini bus to drop them straight off um like I said before there may be a small number of young people that we could have other conversations around and have a more joined up conversation around a lot of our mini buses for our schools in county and those mini buses are full that are going to our to three ways or fospeye or aspeye those are four mini buses going going out to those it's our further field schools that we could have more conversations about so it's definitely something that I could consider only um electric vehicles how do we ensure that taxis many events etc are electric and therefore you know there's a different way of taking that forward that's not something that I can comment on I will say every taxi pretty much in veins at 8 o'clock in the morning is booked for home to school transport and so we don't have very much choice around what we book at the moment but that's a question around procurement okay perhaps one way forward would be to add something around the most appropriate mode of transport within the personal travel budgets or something like that but I'm going to pull ask um Chris to come in now um thank you um uh councilor i think that's really good questions actually in terms of helping us think about that um one of the things that I think um perhaps is in the policies um a contract that we have uh to do um travel training so one of the things we try and do is support your children young people when they get to the right age to enable them to think about individual methods of transport and that might be around them using public transport and workload so we do we do try and get people off off on routes and and support them into that um I believe around there's some of the model modes of transport I think there's some regulations coming in around carbon emission vehicles which we will have to cut which we will as a council will have to comply with as well in terms of looking at that the the ultimate answer though still comes back towards us about when I had to make those journeys in the first place so we're helping us build our carbon um uh bringing our carbon emissions down by just having fewer of those journeys happening and making sure that when we build schools we're applying to our um our energy standards that we want for our school buildings which we will do uh for um the provisions some eventually are about in the next item. Okay uh so Paul and then I've still got a few people on on the list on this item. Well is it on this specific point? This particular issue I think they are uh perfectly good reasonable questions um and I've got a meeting scheduled with the the commissioning team and I'll try and make sure I pick those those issues up because um the the money will be dealt with separately but we're interested in the points that the cancers are making um so I'll try and make sure that those issues are transported over to them if that's the right word um to make sure they're picking that up. Thank you. So Kevin thank you very much um there were just three quick questions that were left in my notes. One was on page uh 49 of of the report you did um it's mentioned that at 2.3 uh 65 percent of respondents said they were either very satisfied or satisfied with the transport so a third won't won't rather um have you put though what were their sort of concerns and has that gone into the policy? That was question which I just go quickly to you might connect and then on the page 78 of the pack which is probably under the um section 42 or 43 of the guidance um I presume it says that the um to check the parents selected the nearest appropriate school and usually after the normal emissions around has taken place and so a couple of questions there one about the information that you're putting on the admission forms so they clearly know possibly that they've got to choose the most appropriate nearest school and how does the sort of travel team and yourself determine whether they've done that and do you work together on the group on that and and finally and and this is a bit I'm not sure whether it comes into the cost budget bit or just generally into the thinking is is around hers travel a point was raised um by somebody worked with hers the fact that the change in structure now which involved teaching in a group space and getting children to that space rather than the teacher going around to houses has caused issues with the senate transport and put children not using it because they're anxious in the first place about coming out and doing things and whether that's been factored in anywhere or has been taken a concern or thank you very much. If I could take the nearest appropriate school comment first and they don't go through the normal admissions process so because they've got a HCPs they're sector schools through an annual review consultation to schools responses from consultations to schools conversations with parents then it's not it's not the case that they're just going to apply to the school of course they do have to do the admissions form eventually but we don't that's not how we agree spaces for these young people in special schools and so you know that's that's not not relevant in these cases and the question around and concerns for regarding transport from parents so a lot of our parents would prefer single taxis and a lot of our parents would prefer to have a guide escort on that taxi to support children and their child and all young person and I completely understand why that is just you know particularly with little ones very anxious about who they might be going on to the transport with etc but unfortunately that's not the most appropriate way to spend council money in all cases of course there are some cases when that is necessary there are other cases when that's when that's not and parents find that very difficult so from parent care for a meeting that's what I hear from them I also hear that they can be frustrated when see transport can be late of course when you've got multiple pickups if one is late coming down getting ready you'll then be late for all the others which is difficult and can them end up in the young person being late for school your logistical problems like that are tricky when you're running this kind of service your parents really do value when drivers can text them and let them know in advance that they're running late etc but where we have got a transient driver population which isn't across all of our transport but in some cases we're having to change drivers occasionally and that means that they don't necessarily have telephone numbers or work my bars and you know all that logistical stuff so that was the main things that came out and a lot of our parents particularly for younger children would prefer a single taxi with a known adult to pick up their child in the morning and question around hers so I don't know if I'm happy to take it Chris do you want to use your microphone could you just repeat that against Heather's transport will often build children who don't have an EPCP recipe yes yeah the point the point was raised around the fact that the the teaching structure had been changed to have group spaces so the teachers no longer went to the individual children's homes and those children weren't getting into taxes or the transport provided because they were already anxious and therefore it was negating the fat plus as additional cost for the transport yeah we probably need a little bit of time to look into that so you're raising the issue that we're commissioning transport that isn't being used by here as a pupil that was that was the commoner was made yes yeah yeah and sorry just just um the bit you mentioned about not relevant the policy of the travel policy is that for not just for send it's for include so it doesn't include in the government guidance it does include things for children in verticalers going to maintain schools that are a certain distance away from schools so that would that doesn't feature in your policy or is that just this is just a send travel policy and there's a separate travel policy for maintained in verticalers children that don't have sent so this the bit about distance and about making sure you selected the nearest appropriate school is in a separate travel policy yeah so there's so there's a separate travel policy for those who are traveling over three miles to school who go to a maintain school without any HCP if you have any HCP then the send policy is the one that you'll look at it does talk about nearest appropriate school still but that's most appropriate to meet needs not nearest in terms of miles apologies i thought it was a the overall travel policy thanks thank you Laura and i think Ruth you may be the last speaker on this thank you now i have a question about um the independent travel training and so i assume that that applies to the older children and not all of them but i think that sounds like you know very positive but um in your report says that uh usually this training is provided um from year 10 onwards so you assess what the annual review when the child is in year nine so i was just wondering is there any possibility that you could obviously depending on the child but sort of um suggest this training a year earlier because perhaps some of it for some of those children it might be appropriate and you know and that would also then help you know with the funding side of things but but also thinking about the child's point you know to become independent as soon as possible yeah absolutely so i maintain special schools as per phospho three ways all offer travel training from the school itself and they make the decision around when it's appropriate for that young person to do the travel training and they although the policy says that they would do it at 14 years old essentially is when we when we start to look to do it they will start it as part of their independence education before that if they if they deem it necessary a lot of young people have that written into their EHC piece as one of their goals and to be able to use public transport but from a policy point of view because if this is something that causes a lot of anxiety to our parents around you know they see their vulnerable children you know going on to to transport with others they're finding that quite challenging to to understand and so we needed to give a definite date we felt we needed to give a definite date by which everybody would have had a conversation about it um rather than i suppose it can't uh suggestion that it can't happen before that and we could consider but i think moving it earlier but i think we'd need to go back at consultation with our parent carers around that and i think there'd be quite a lot of feeling around that um but we we could if that was deemed something that was necessary to do okay thank you Laura okay i'm now going to move on to the next item which is a safety valve update and i'm going to ask Paul to introduce the item i think Chris should be on standby to be the support um to be supportive and i will now ask us Paul to um to make a start please thank you thank you chair i wonder who it was sat behind me i couldn't see hello Richard we i think i'm going to start off with an apology because we were hoping when we put this into the forward schedule that we would be able to provide the full safety valve report um but as uh these things tend to happen we're dealing with the Department for Education and it's not straightforward so we're not in a position at the moment to be able to fully report everything around safety valve but so we bought this this report this time because we did promise we would bring it but as a if you like a progress report through before we actually do the full report in due course and so i think apart from that i mean it's incredibly complicated work and what i'm really delighted about is that there's a small working group a project team that's working on this including Richard and other people because it is a major issue for the local authority and going back to council amoss's query on the last item we went through a whole budget process last year with virtually no reference at all to safety valve and the potential revenue implications around safety valve for the local authority and it is a major issue for us and it is for many other local authorities up and down the country because it's not all local authorities that are on safety valve but the implications are still quite significant and it's an issue that whichever government we've got in the future they're going to have to deal with the fact that they made changes rightly in terms of children needing services around send but then not making the financial arrangements to cover that so it is a real issue i think for all local authorities that have children's services but we in many respects are an outlier and that then what makes it more relevant to us as a local authority so i'm going to pass over to you chris am i at this point i was going to say do you want to speak chris or do you want Richard to speak okay thank you as as council may said we would hope to have a bit more finalised detail by today but we have extended the submission deadline for the the next part of our safety valve plan just a i'll just clarify a few process bits of information so you can understand the mechanism that we're going through and then take questions as hopefully that the plan is comes through on the report so um we are already in the safety valve this isn't about was negotiating a deal we've we've had a deal with the department of education since last year where they provide nearly 20 million pounds of additional budget into the he dedicated school grant and in return we deliver a plan which stays how we will get back into a balanced budget we finished those negotiations and signed up to agreement with the DFE which we knew was always going to be really challenging in terms of delivering within time scales and towards the end of the last calendar year we were written to by the DFE to say our financial returns were outside where we said we would be in terms of the safety valve so we were formally told that we were put on pause in relation to our safety valve and asked to resubmit a new plan which satisfied the department for education that we were taking actions to address what is a significant increase in budget area in spending that budget area but also to reassure the department that we had viable plans to bring back into a sales back into a balanced budget so that's that's the point we're at at the moment we originally were told we had to submit a new plan by the 31st of March and we're obviously not on that deadline at this moment in time so what what we've done different this time is um taking a really more um taking a really forensic look at what our plans are and our finances we've had an independent review done internally just to look at our plans we've increased the level of project support that we have from the council to support as a team we are a small local authority my team manages around this have been living and breathing this for the last six months and we now have project support which really really really helpful and we're at the point now where we're starting to refine I would say some of the work that was in our existing plans so I think our existing plans which we've submitted are too different if you look at the three areas that we're looking at that we started to refine and really identify the resource and the change that's needed to deliver those plans we will be asking for an increase in the timeliness in the time frame of the plan so original plan was five years we'll be looking for some weather between seven to eight years for our new plan to be submitted and we're in the process where we are um submitting the details of those plans to the DFE and getting I have to say quite good feedback from my advisors this time the some of the advisors working with the providing really thorough interrogation of what we're saying provided some scrutiny and feedback on that so we're hoping to be on track for the May the 24th in relation to our plans and in relation to what we're going to submit it's worth noting that the the DFE you're very clear that there's no more money on the table so there's no more funding beyond that 20 million which will be available to us so safety valves are really it is it is a tricky it's a really tricky piece of work so so where I come from on this so what where I see the opportunity is I use this as the an opportunity for us to do rapid service improvement and to do some transformation around how we improve the way we deliver services how we make sure we've got a better really help services we are investing more from the DSG in send support and we'll continue to do so and we are also got significant capital investment in making sure we've got the local schools we've been really successfully bidding for two new free schools so we've got a new free school special school and a send AP school which we would be developing as part of this project but also we got with a four million to build a residential school which obviously we've heard about which hopefully be at Charlton house and that's progressing rapidly the outcome of that should be that we start to see us having reduced costs and I'm sorry to talk about costs but when you're doing the safety valve working that's what you get drawn into but we will have better provision locally for children so they don't have to travel as far for some of those for some of their education through that residential offer that should bring down costs children's social care and bring down costs and education we're also building seven new resource spaces in our schools and our communities and they will start to roll out at different stages and they've been carefully chosen to make sure they're mapped against the needs of our population and how it changes in veins and these are really important developments not just for the safety valve but sufficiency of a local area so we've got those and really pleased with the way that our local schools have responded to that request for additional spaces resource spaces and then our third area of our work is really really bolster in the se end team so it's got the right capacity the right skills the right management and leadership to be able to support them as a as a statutory team to make the right decisions as you can see Laura's been here twice now she's been with us in september but she's been a really good appointment in terms of bringing some real solidarity and leadership to the team recruited into se end positions is really difficult that's a national issue as well quite a lot of local operators around us are in the safety valve program as well so we're all chasing the same skill sets in terms of managers and leaders so that's been good for us and what Richard has been working diligently on alongside another financial colleague that we brought in to assist us is how we crystallize all of those opportunities developments investments into a plan so at different stages how will this impact what will this do to our spend and what we've been really clear the DFE would be really clear to us is that we have to marry up how the business operates and how we financially understand the decisions that the business makes so there's been a lot of work to ensure that Richard and his colleagues are really really at the heart of what we're doing and planning and Richard is at the heart of what we're doing planning and over the last two months we've just lived and breathed this now it's all we've done for two weeks but with two months we're nearly there I think in terms of some of the detail what we've done with our draft plans is all of our draft plans have been shared with our parent carers forum so they have the opportunity to see what we're doing there is quite a lot of media interest in safety valve and there's quite a lot of stories and reports written on the safety valve we've been clear and open that this is what we're trying to do we haven't got anything else so we will do that again with our latest set of plans which we have submitted this Friday so we will go out next week gain and the plan needs to go and share those with our parent care farmers indeed with our ICB colleagues so they're able to see that as well the reports regularly go to school's forum and we also report regularly to school standards board. I'll stop there. Thank you very much Chris and thank you for turning your microphone on. I have Kevin, Dan, Robin and then David on my list. I haven't got David on my list. Thank you Chair. First of all I want to put on record the excellent work that the officers have done around the Senate provision and for keeping the children and send needs at the heart of everything you've done and I think the plan that you set out and the way you've gone about it is truly amazing and I'm sure that veins as a whole and all the children will benefit from what you're doing full stop. My key concern and my key worry is that all your good work will be put under undue pressure or undue scrutiny in terms of cost cutting or marrying something up that the DFE want as opposed to what Bath and North East Somerset need and it has happened in North Somerset. I have been at various meetings with schools and trusts where they just slashed things to meet DFE costs saying you cannot do that you've got to meet this cost and they've slashed if you like the amount per pupil or whatever it is on the ACPs and things which just seems a nightmare scenario. So can you give any reassurance that the plans that you've put in place and you mentioned I think additional resources from the council to support your team and to support the objectives of what you've set out that they're not going to be in any way blown off course or distorted or sadly weakened because the DFE have given you things that you must do because as far as I'm aware this is still a DFE problem although I understand the council is keeping an eye on it because it's sitting there in the ether and it's not the council's responsibility yet I think Richard mentioned it was 2026 or whatever but again by that point lots of other things may have happened but I think it's crucial that you've got a good plan it's all going to take time because you don't build a special school you don't build resource spaces overnight and you can't therefore reduce the transport costs for those out of placements and out of counties and all the other things so please reassure us that you're not resubmitting plans that are going to cut from what we are trying to do which is the good things and that the DFE aren't going to push you into a corner. Thank you Kevin and thank you for your feedback I'll make sure that offices received I can get that back as well because that would be good for them to be good for them to hear that I think we have got some good plans as as I said sometimes when you take up pieces of work like this you've just got a look for the opportunity and focus on those and that's that's what we've been trying to do so as our current plans as we are submitting them there are no plans in there to reduce the amounts that would provide through HCPs in fact there's an inflationary uplift so in there there are what we think are reasonable things to do in relation to the investment in services so that we are supporting children nearly so there isn't a need for as many HCP applications to go in we can't change the thresholds for the HCP application they are there they're quite clear what we can do is invest in services which perhaps don't aren't in in babies at the moment we haven't signed any plans yet we're in the we're in the negotiation stage with the DFE but the plans as they are I'm very comfortable with it and they're not about reducing services or funding directly to schools it's about investment in any health but it's not investment in capital how quick and how far those funds those plans deliver to me DFE expectations we'll find out in the next week or so but there comes a point I think where we as a council I'm the director of education but I think the wider council leads to and Paul's colleagues and Mary need to decide if there's a line in the sound we're not going to go past do you have another question Kevin? I'll let Robin come in first because I've got a couple of things to note down thank you okay Robin thank you chair no address is to to Paul we'll be on the first part of this to Paul. We're on the third to point this at offices and I know apologies for this so we are where we are because we've got a government in place for the last 10 or 15 years I've been robbing local authorities of money they offer a sticking plaster to try to because local authorities are faced with financial crisis and they're now trying to nick the sticking plaster back I mean it is theft on a ground scale from central government local government and I'm worried about the current situation here at the moment because it's fitting into a as the context of government departments slashing funding in order to pay for Jeremy Hunt's national insurance tax cuts in September. Locally we're seeing that with arts council funding going down by 50 percent as we're seeing with the Bath Festival so the question to you Paul is how confident are you that this is a genuinely technical professional exercise with the DFE and Burns offices or do you believe that this is just another excuse by central government to take funding away from local governments and the the corollary for that and I guess this is part of offices what happens if the DFE do turn around and say no no you're not fitting our rules you know we'll delay it we'll delay it we'll delay it and how does the trickle down of that work to schools who are expected to see this money to see this money come through as I say no apologies for putting that national context and certainly no criticism of officers ending up at the back end of politically cynical cutting by a different government who are coming to who are trying to slash and burn in the last few months in office. I feel that some of that is definitely for you to answer Paul and maybe some of the other parts maybe officers might want to comment on. I think I'll avoid the politics because I think up and down the country if safety valve fails then they're going to be putting nearly just about every local authority out of business so I think that there's got to be a solution a more practical solution that the government of whatever color it actually deals with children and funds children correctly and properly. That's a national issue it's the LGA has taken that up other the F40 which is about the the large education areas have all taken it up with government but it is a sticking plaster and my big concern about this is the fact that the timescale for doing this you know we're talking about revenue funding and the capital funding you know the the two schools you're talking probably about 50 to 70 million pounds investment that the DFE are putting into dealing with the issue of children staying within the area which is a major investment by government which you know I think is is really positive but if that takes six years to do and we are obliged to get down to basically living within our means that they determine then I can't see how we're actually going to be able to to deal with that but what I have seen is the the officer team working on this absolutely superb and if we apply those principles and I think part of the problem has been in the past cutting of early intervention has been one of the major issues of why we're now got so many problems around send and the issue that Chris has mentioned about referrals the referrals in this area are exceptionally high and that comes back to many of those referrals coming from schools and from the police and such like and and if we can actually make that process work more effectively then I think that's going to be a positive for the local authority rather than a negative so I think the politics behind that I don't disagree but I do think that the the council's approach to this has got to be you know really professional and I'm seeing that work now being done in a way that is really quite impressive so as I said at the start chair that I wanted us to be able to put the full report because I think when the full report comes out it's going to be quite scary and I think this committee will want to see that I want to scrutinize that including for me as the cabinet member because it is something that I'm genuinely worried about and I'm not going to say oh well everything's wonderful you know this committee is about scrutiny and sometimes in scrutiny terms things aren't necessarily what you want but I do think the officers are working really really hard and it's nice to hear Kevin bearing in mind you know the respect I've got for everybody in this committee raising those queries other local authorities are really suffering around safety valve and not agreeing them that may well be an issue that we deal with but if we don't the cost I think would be enormous for this local authority so it is something where we've got to make sure we're dealing with it effectively as we can chair. Thank you very much. Okay I've got Liz and then I think Kevin wants to come back. Thank you. Thank you Dina. I'd like to ask the question why though and I know our officers have worked really hard. I'm leaving out a government that might be pulling the rug on resources for other reasons but our local authority made an agreement with targets for the safety valve which we have not met according to the Department for Education and I'm just wondering why have we failed to meet these targets. Is it that the targets were changed or or or something along those lines? The DFE have requested a revised plan which we have submitted just of which we're going to get our response back. So how confident are we that the DFE will unpause those payments that they've paused because either they've changed the goalposts and we're not going to meet our targets whatever even the new ones you're putting in and if we don't get this money what plans are there in place to cope with the gap? Thank you Liz for really good questions. Fundamentally I guess there's a couple of things for us. Probably in the negotiations around the initial plan we were probably we didn't allow ourselves enough time to develop some of the early things that we're trying to do so this time we're asking for another two years because we're recognizing that we need to recruit staff get things in place and we're pushing back much more with the DFE around and how long it's going to take and so I think they will be things that perhaps I will shift on this time because it does take time to implement. I think we thought that some of the increases we've seen in terms of demand would start to recede as we passed away from the gold years we haven't they've continued to go up at a hydrojectory and so that's the main reasons why we're back in this place if we don't if we don't get the continued finance that does become an issue for us I think there will be a need to be a balance between us being willing to accept what the DFE wanted us to do to get that money and how important that is in relation to what we think we want to do in order to receive those payments and that's the point we're at now in terms of negotiating that and there be professional advice that I'll give back to Councillors and two CD members around whether how much risk we're willing to accept in that new revision of the plan. What happens if we don't get it I guess this is the ultimate question at the moment really so at the moment the balance doesn't sit on the counts that the deficit doesn't sit on the council balance sheet it sits with the it's off the balance sheet with the DFE there is something called the statutory override which is in place which stops it become the local authority financial problem at the moment the DFE is suggesting that well at the moment the DFE time for that being removed is 2526 I don't think that will happen but they DFE are still stating that the statutory override will be removed at some point so there is a bit of it there is a there is a unknown problem for the council in relation to the finances because what will be clear when we get where they've actually finalised the plan is that even when we get back into balance there will be a cumulative deficit that will be sat somewhere I think I understand that if thanks indeed thank you Chris I didn't feel very cheered up by that Monday morning I'll try hard later in the week so Chris you want to turn your microphone off and I will ask Kevin to ask what I think is the last question thank you chair yes so just just a quick comment on through it section 3.11 and number six where you mentioned improving the working lives of staff and colleagues working in the senate system in Baines I think that should be the whole education system because the knock-on effect of the pressure is felting all the mainstream schools and everything else I think the one I would like just to come back to and have your comments on really is is the fact that where we are at the moment has been a result of many years of austerity many cuts to services around schools as well as within the the senate system itself sadly which has left all schools just screaming about what to do and how to do it and there are children that they haven't been able to place their children they're just coping with and even with your best will in the world and the good plans you have for sense support and early prevention it's not replacing many many years of cuts that have come about sadly and comments have been made about schools saying actually we cannot take these children with EACPs because we don't have the provision is that becoming more of a common occurrence now or has has I know there's a good relationship between both the same team and the schools are you working things out still just about at the moment and how do you address the issue of a demand led system when all you've got to play with is the provision because parents are often seeing the EACP route as the only guarantee for additional support because there are no support services to go to I think my answer to the first bit answers the second bit as well so so trying to have thinking how objectively I can answer this without getting into a political political piece myself so I want so I think what where the the interesting bit for for babies is that we rapidly went through a period of accadimization in a very short space of time and the local authority used to provide services which it would top-life schools budgets force or behave sports services looking sports services think that and then provide all that to schools before and then we had the reforms that came in roughly around the same time as services were withdrew and I think the belief the time wasn't about we need to get stopped delivering these services it's about these and now the responsibility of those schools and those trusts deliver those services in there and I think what's happened is that that hasn't happened there is a real inconsistency in what I think is what difference trusts and schools provide around send and SCN support and behavior support and I'm only talking about the education services Kevin and I know that it's a much wider package around that and it was a report that came out recently and a thing about that actually national policy around this hasn't kept up with some of the changes that happen around accadimization what we're trying to do is occupy that middle ground again and say actually when it comes to said we want to be that personal coordinates the CPD we want to be the organization that is supporting your same code we want to make sure the trading advice is available at an equal point of ask rather than be dependent on what trust you're in so that levels the playing field for parents better so I guess I don't disagree Kevin we are where we are because potentially of some decisions that were not underpinned by national policy but I think the work that we're doing hopefully goes some way for us to be able to make sure that schools and parents have got better services to go to for advice information support but it doesn't replace I don't think it needs to be released what's been removed there hasn't been a education policy that has actually made it through a white or green paper stage yet for quite some time so we shall wait to see what happens next so this end of AP reforms came in and there still sat there waiting to be implemented and we do it would be helpful for us to be supported by some proactive national changes in policy but we'll until then we'll keep doing what we can and we can to support you thank you perhaps there'll be changes not only in policy but in the people making the policy. It's very clear that the DFE have got to agree things but so it's a council so I think you know some of the comments that have been made today are relevant to me as the cabinet member because I have to go off and have this discussion with the cabinet and you know this is a really really serious issue and it's not just Mary and Chris you know it's the Chief Executive it affects every single person who lives in the behalf of North East Somerset area it isn't just about schools it is a major issue and it's a major issue based around the lack of funding that has been given to local authorities by the government and I'm not being party political in saying that I'm just saying that that's a real problem that we've got as a local authority and although we're a well managed local authority this is something that actually has gone on over the top of our heads so I think I've got difficult discussions to have with my own colleagues on this moving forward. Thank you very much Paul and I don't envy you those conversations. Right we're moving on now to our second to last item which is the Sacray Annual Report and I know Eleanor you wanted to speak to this item assuming your technology works. It's not at the moment Ian. How many hesitation in any case in standing up and getting my voice to carry to the faculty class to be well. Can I just say Eleanor that's all very well but you won't be webcast. You didn't hear it. No so you have to wait till you're working. Perfect, thank you. Right can you hear me now? So we've had this issue before. I think you might have to sit and speak into the microphone. I'm not sure how well it picks up. Well it will. Okay you carry on standing then. I was thinking Chair you might be going to refer to the story of when Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana of Galilee and because they run out of wine and we've come to the end of the agenda but I'd like to say that you leave the best wine till last. This is for me a really important topic and I hope I can convince the rest of you too and I'm very grateful to you for giving me the time to present our thoughts on the annual report which I know the officer has kindly prepared and I'm sure she'll reinforce it. I'm assuring I'm assuming that you've all done your homework of course and that you've read the annual report so I don't need to go into it in too much detail. However it may not be obvious to those of you who are not familiar with the role that religious education plays in our schools and the legal requirements laid down since the 1944 Education Act and in its successors just how important the subject is even while I'm sure you welcome and would congratulate the Bain schools at which have achieved such excellence. We flatter ourselves in this country about the degree of tolerance towards and between the main faith communities and individual people of faith but I think this is meaningless if it is based on ignorance and lack of understanding. Conversely the Hebrew Scriptures book of Psalms explains more about the Israeli attack on Gaza than any BBC news guru can. Religious faith itself is meaningless if it is kept as a private hobby and does not address real-life problems. For example climate change is just a scientific hypothesis but for the Abrahamic face the destruction of God's creation and this belief should reinforce action to save the planet they believe and it's these fundamental attitudes or problems of life which should be undergirded by good RE. So where does this leave the sacri? We should thank the officer and the RE advisor for producing the report but it should be appreciated that more than any other council work I can think of it is volunteers who are at the heart of it and who produce it. We owe a special debt to Jane O'Hara the chair who is from the Bath Interfaith group and the Baha'i community. Apart from myself and Dr. Pankarnio who report who represent Bains volunteers come from the faith communities and from associated bodies like the Amadam center. The summary report is not about naming and shaming although we know from the most recent national offstead report into the state of RE nationally that about a third of schools in England do not observe their legal obligations. Rather it is to identify and commend good practice and to encourage schools with resources and advice as well as training. For example that which is offered on Holocaust memorial teaching. We subsidize visits to places of worship and we are proud of the national awards that are schools of one but I find it incredibly depressing when I was training RE teachers professionally for about 15 years up to 2005. We had a 29% shortage of specialist RE teachers. The offstead report produced the same figure, a gap of 29% of specialist teachers. It is still my ambition to produce material on black religious experience and to utilise fairfield house appropriately. Zachary is about opening children's eyes to a new world where they can develop their spirituality and ethics and cooperate in society whether they believe or not. And the bottom line I think is nearly 10,000 pounds to pay for the work of Zachary is just peanuts in the big budgets that we've been hearing about special schools. But I would say it is worth every single penny and I hope you will commend this report. Thank you very much Eleanor obviously slightly disappointed that you were not able to do the the water into the wine part but we will move on. A few coffee instead. Oh water into coffee I'm not sure it's quite such a miracle. So Paul I don't know if you wanted to speak before Orwin. Not really I agree that I put it in my report about the difficulties in the wide world and the more we can actually get young people to actually understand each other I think that was a great credit. I think it is a silly shame that it's not consistent across all the schools and I do think that is an issue that Eleanor has been very polite in not highlighting too much but it's something that we should be working on because I think genuinely the more young people understand their neighbours the better life can be for everybody. Thank you Paul. I don't know Orwin if you had anything you wanted to add? No? Okay. I wasn't expecting there to be a debate on this but I know Liz had a question. First is thank you very much, Kelsey Jackson for your speech. It was very illuminating and I would like to ask a question of Miss Dunley of Orwin. We raised the budget in council last year I think it was to 10,000. 9,500? 15,000. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me. Is this the baseline budget now? Is this going to carry on this 15,000 pounds or is it going to revert to the lower figure that it was previously? Oh, when could we use your microphone? There you go and my understanding is it's the baseline and thank you very much indeed thank you. Okay so thank you. So I do we don't vote on this do we? No. Okay that's thank you very much and thank you as well I love your patience until we got to this item. So we now move on to the next item which is the panel work plan and I note I think we might need to include a report on the work with the council and the partners are doing around suicide. Was there anything else that has not been picked up in the work plan before us? Chair could I just with the work plan we thought we were going to be reporting on safety valve this meeting. We've done a progress report but I think we I've already given the commitment we should bring it back so I think the next meeting I was going to say hopefully we'll be able to give the full report for scrutiny. Thank you. Let's hope so. Okay Joanna. I'm not sure about what's happening with budgets I know that with the budget decisions we were told that there was going to be a review of what was taking place across the services. I certainly been contacted by a particular provider and been told that their budgets are going to be seriously cut in a very short amount of time and I'm just wondering if we should have a piece of work that we were promised that there would be a review of what was taking place with the budgets and how that would impact on the services particularly for young children young people and play etc. So I'm just wondering if there should be something in the work plan on that. I think Joanna there is in the 3 SG panel invitation. I kind of think that that was to cover. Yes yes because you're this is the 800 yeah this is the 800 000 isn't it that okay voluntary services thank you yes David thank you chair could we have something going forward regarding our general practice services coming through from the primary care networks or from the ICB team you know access to GPs waiting times that sort of thing potential risks of practice closures etc just to say we actually asked for this and Laura said she would bring back a report on this she's very I think she probably mentioned the next session but she's bringing back lots of reports on the next session but I think I particularly asked for this last time around access to GPs etc and I think maybe it's worth reminding Laura that we we would like an update on that yes so actually it might fit well with the other piece of work that we were talking about sort of or at least alluding to which is access to dental services as well so yes so we can maybe be explicit about both those on on Laura's next report okay yeah anything else obviously if anybody does think of something you can let me know and we can try and add it to the appropriate agenda in that case I am very pleased with please with myself because I said we would well I said to myself that we were finished by 1230 and it is now 1228 according to my microphone so thank you and I would like to close this meeting and thank you everybody for your attending [BLANK_AUDIO]