Transcript

Transcript

Thank you for that break. I am a little disturbed that this Council could have ended up having to do that this evening. I hope nobody is going to be prepared to defend that behaviour because I think it's totally unacceptable. We're here to work for the people of Lou role, not anything else. So, thank you. Thank you, Mr Stewart. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I thank you for your comments. I just want to put on record for all members here, including those who are laughing over there as well, that one of my female members was threatened by one of your protesters, a male protester. Several of my members have been hollered at and abused verbally on the way in. We are here as elected representatives and as leaders in our communities. We should not be endorsing or encouraging that kind of behaviour. You can yawn and laugh all you like, but you're encouraging this behaviour. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I just endorse completely the comments of the Leader of the Council. My members, a number of my members, have been verbally abused as they were coming in making all sorts of appalling accusations. I can say I was also there, I witnessed because I challenged the person about it when he was being particularly aggressive to Paula, actually, as she was on her way in. So I witnessed that. That isn't a legitimate protest, as it's been described by the members of the Green group, apparently. That was sheer aggression and unpleasantness and extremism and we should stand against that at every opportunity. And we'll make sure we give the statements to the legal officers to make sure those people get nowhere near this town hall in the future. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Green. Councillor Gilchrist. Thank you, Madam Mayor. There were, indeed, shouts at members who voted in a particular way last time we discussed the issue of Gaza. Those of us who had expressed sympathy for the Palestinian plight at the time, I took umbrage at being shouted at and asked if I voted for genocide, since I didn't and I don't believe any members here did whichever way they voted. What I would do is place on record the thanks of members for the work that our officers have put in to try and ensure that the meeting could proceed, that members were safe entering and moving around the building, and that action was taken in order to calm the situation and enable us to get on with our lawful democratic business. Thank you, Councillor Gilchrist. Right. Councillor Cleary. Cleary's spoken. I want to get on with the agenda, please. Thank you, Mayor and I just want to also endorse what Councillor Gilchrist has just said and thank very much the staff who are dealing with a very difficult situation and yes, disruptive and unacceptable behaviour, and I was pleased to stay in this room at that protest and help officers in their attempts to clear the room and they did it very efficiently, very efficiently, very well. They have our full support in what is a very difficult, difficult situation and I reject any kind of implication that we are in any way condoning that kind of behaviour. People have a right to protest. They need to do it peacefully and respectfully. Thank you. Now. Thank you, Councillor Cleary. Can we now move back on to the agenda, please? I think we did the declarations of interest before all that hubbub broke out. Can we move on to Item 2, which is the Civic Mayor's announcement. I have been notified of the following apologies. Councillors Graham Davis, Jenny Johnson, Richie Pitt, Paul Martin and Daisy Kenny. Are there any further apologies from anywhere? No. Thank you. Right. Item 3 on the agenda is the minutes. Turning to Item 3, we are asked to approve the minutes of the council meeting held on the 18th of March, 2024. I will move approval of these minutes as a correct record. Would anyone wish to second? So second, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Stewart. I will take this by assent. Is that agreed? Agreed. Thank you. Item 4 on the agenda is matters requiring approval or consideration by the council. 4A is the adoption of a revised council constitution. This is a referral from the Constitution and Standards Committee meeting held on the 28th of February, 2024, and a number of minor amendments proposed by the Monitoring Officer which form a revised constitution which the Council are asked to adopt for the 2024/2025 municipal year. Can I call on Councillor Tony Cox to move the recommendations detailed on the summons? So moved, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Cox. Call on Councillor Gilchrist to second. So second, Madam Mayor. Thank you. Councillor Cox, you now have five minutes to speak to your motion. That would be as quick as possible then, Madam Mayor. I won't choose to go through all of the items on the agenda. Most of them are very minor changes. Whilst there's eight topics, members will have had sight of them. I'm sure they've been appraised by their spokes from Constitution and Standards. The Council is recommended to endorse the proposed amendments to the constitution as detailed in 32 to 315 in the report and adopt the revisions to the constitution. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Cox. I am aware of an amendment from the Green Group which was circulated in the supplementary agenda papers. It is my intention to hold one debate on the motion and amendment. With that, I call on Councillors Cleary and Byrd to move and second their amendment. So moved, Madam Mayor. Seconded. Councillor Cleary, you now have three minutes to speak to the amendment. Thank you, Mayor. And can I begin by congratulating you on your election as Mayor on behalf of the Green Group. We hope you enjoy every single minute of the year ahead. In proposing this, I will begin by repeating what I said this time last year. This amendment reflects the Green Party's commitment to fairness, respect and mutual cooperation. It is what our residents would want us to do. It is right and it is fair and it should be supported by any right and fair-minded member of this Council. But as we can see from the proposals ahead of us this evening, that's not what we're getting. Once again, Greens are being deliberately excluded from positions of power and influence. And that's a clear political choice by the leader of the Labour and Conservative groups. A very different choice than the one made by their predecessors. And since last year, Stitchup, what have we had? We've had the Council plan, optimistically titled, We're all working together. It says our Council's vision is working together to promote fairness and opportunity. It was agreed unanimously. But in practice, we see Labour and Conservatives working together to exclude the representatives of people who voted Green. So we hear what you say, but we see what you do. We see the Jeff and Paul show play out in committee after committee, sitting shoulder to shoulder. At Pensions Committee, to undermine the voices of people outraged that their Council tax is funding genocide in Gaza. At the Regen Committee, to ensure that promises made to market traders and the people of Birkenhead are washed away. At the Environment Committee, to oversee the squandering of vast sums of scarce Council resources digging up the beaches of World West, while the queues at food banks in Eastworld get longer by the day. Which does rather beg the question, what's in it for the Labour group? Why are they so keen to amplify the influence and voices of the Conservatives? Is that what you signed up for when you put yourselves forward for election? Not a question I can answer. But, of course, different choices are available to all of us. Choices that put fairness into practice, choices that respect the democratic mandate we all enjoy. This amendment would fully enshrine fairness in our Constitution. Thank you, Mayor. >> Thank you, Councillor Cleary. Are there any speakers to this motion? Councillor Gilchrist.

Thank you, Madam Mayor. A quote has been given from Will working together, the Council plan which we did all vote for last year. And it does say in the paragraph there to achieve our future vision for Will, which is imperative that political leaders, the senior management team and staff at all levels work together as part of a powerful coalition for change. Now, I did look at the description of spokespersons and chairs in the Constitution. And there, whilst the talks about spokespersons provide an effective political counterbalance to the role of committee chair, it is quite clear that there are ways of working, ways of working that are more productive than some of the ways that we have had. And it was thanks to Councillor Hackett and other members that we got into this clear mode of working together. I did look at Bristol last week, but I want to refer to what happened in Brighton in 2012 when the Greens took control. So much fairness because they took the chair of the policy and resources. They took the chair of adult care. They took the chair of children and young people. They took the chair of economic development and culture. They took the chair of environment and sustainability and the housing committee and the transport committee. In fact, there was very little that they didn't take chair of. Now, Brighton did descend into certain difficulties after that and, again, changed their constitution. And I'm conscious that in Bristol there has been an agreement reached after some discussions and some debate in recent weeks, because it's clear there that the parties were willing to sit down and talk about how will you actually bring about this way of working. Bringing something here now does not fit in with the way we worked on governance. We have had working parties looking at changes to the constitution. We spent time at meetings going through them in detail and reaching agreement. By springing this on the council in the amendments this week, that is not the way to work this process through, because we need to sit down as parties, work out our differences, and find a way of accommodating each other which does not seem to be possible in the present circumstances. >> Thank you, Councillor Gilchrist. Councillor Tomigny. >> Thank you, Mayor. To be clear, this amendment would not unfairly disadvantage any party, not now and not in the future. In fact, it would do precisely the opposite, simply extending the council's existing principle of proportionality for committee seats, which we presumably all agree is fair, to include the chairs and vice chairs. I've seen over the last year on this council that whatever might happen in here, on our committees we can usually work across party lines and find common ground. And we've all witnessed that independent of party affiliations each of us has something valuable to offer. Now to those planning on voting against this, I ask, is your opposition because you fundamentally disagree with the principle of a balanced allocation of chairs, or is it because the current system can be leveraged to disproportionately benefit your party and you prefer to continue exploiting this advantage? Either way, this emerging practice of using allocation of committee chairs to tactically exclude one party, it ultimately harms the integrity of our council. Following the independent assurance panel's final report, the chair, Carolyn Downs, advised us, the council, that we must continue to invest in the development of members and offices and constructive collaboration. She highlighted the maturity of relationships in the wider interest, and credited our council's improved position to our hard work and inclusivity. Specifically, she noted, our significantly improved cross-party working. Now, I'm sure we all agree that effective cross-party working really is essential. It's been praised in this very room. We all benefit from it, and so, too, do the residents we represent. Yet for all this praise for cross-party working, it's surely clear to each of us here, and to rural residents, that the suggested allocation does not reflect any commitment to advancing constructive cross-party relationships. And obviously this did not happen by chance. One could be forgiven for seeing it as a purely vindictive decision designed to antagonize and frustrate, you know, to provoke the inevitable reaction. So keep this in mind when you sense our frustration. This was avoidable. Now, clearly no party could reasonably endorse the allocation that entirely excludes them. Not ours, not any of yours. Nor would any party with integrity simply acquiesce and subsequently give their support to those who orchestrated it. Again, this is simply action and reaction. So yes, we will continue to stand firm and argue against unjust treatment. And just to reiterate, we haven't asked for anything other than a balanced share. That's what this is. That's what the proposal is. So if we truly valued cross-party working on this council, we would have started this year by fostering a positive spirit of inclusive collaboration and cooperation. Instead of sowing pointless division once again, we could have, and perhaps still can, choose a better path. Thank you, Councillor Tomanee. Councillor Stewart, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor. The Greens seem to be a bit hypocritical. You know, Councillor Tomanee there just mentioned that we work well together on the Committee, but still want to bring a motion to full Council where it is not the appropriate place to bring the motion. You tried this last year, and you've had a year to bring that via the correct committee before tonight, but have chosen tonight to do this again. What members of the public that you keep referring to won't know is the conversations that we have had, the exchange of emails that we have had, the various multiple changes that you put forward as your proposals that in some way, you know, you've mentioned here tonight about Labour and Tories, you forget there's a third party here as well, the Lib Dems, but it's a narrative that you want to spin. You've partied in the negotiations, but it's about what you want, and I think you hit the nail on the hand, Pat, when you said, it's about power. That's what it is about. It's about power. It's not about working together, it's not about fairness. If it was about fairness, you would listen to people in Widdle West who voted overwhelmingly in the consultation to have a compromise on the beach, but rather, you would rather impose what the Greens want rather than listen to residents in an area that you've never entertained when it comes to campaigning until a defection from one of the Labour councillors over to your party who still hasn't called a by-election to define whether or not the Greens have got the support there, because the Greens don't care about what residents think. They want to impose what they want on residents. Proportionality is provided within the makeup of the committees, so you get your fair share of those places. You also get representation at Chairs and Spokes when your members turn up to those briefings. So this is not about compromise and this is not about fairness. This is exactly about the word that you use. It is about your power and how you see that. We have proportionality. We have tried to work over the past 12 months and we've placed on record that we're prepared to work with you going forward. That's something that is clearly not something that you want to entertain going forward either, so we will not be supporting this motion tonight. Thank you, Councillor Stewart. Is there any more speakers to the motion? No, oh sorry. Yes. Thank you, Mayor. I'd like to congratulate you also on your election. I really just want to pick up a couple of points because I think there has been some misleading of members of the public who may not be aware of some issues. Firstly, in relation to the comments of obviously about the investment in pensions, I would remind Councillor Cleary that he was chair of the Pensions Committee until the past year where he failed to address any of the issues that he then goes for for the Labour Chair to address. So if you want to see the difference between a Green Chair and a Labour Chair, just look at that committee. Within half a year, Councillor McManus had set up a working party to deal with those issues and a program of work. We had a new committee to establish it and we're already underway to be looking by September at the investment in defence groups. That's the difference between Labour and frankly other parties than the Green Party. If you have a Green Chair, all they do is wallow in bluster. Other parties, particularly Labour, work to deliver on what members want and they actually put it into action. We're not just all talk when it suits to get headlines. And I also want to talk about proportionality and not damaging the council as the other Councillor Tomanee has raised it. I'll tell you what is damaging to the integrity of this council is Councillors who cannot come in safely to this building and go about their business and encouraging an atmosphere where women are threatened, particularly when they're trying to carry out the democratic business on behalf of the residents in their ward is particularly disgusting and is not fit conduct for Councillors on this committee. So to stand up and talk about integrity is rich coming from people who we believe have been involved in that. And as for proportionality, there is no way that that is proportionality to the business of this council. So when you write motions about proportionality, when you talk about integrity, why don't you start living it? Sorry. Thank you, Councillor Ainsworth. I take it that's the last speaker. Can we now move to the seconders? Councillor Byrd, you have three minutes to speak. Thank you. Last month was the Jewish Festival of Passover and we celebrate by asking why and asking why again. So why does the principle of fairness matter? Well, fairness is fundamental. It's what we model for our kids. It's in the Council Plan. We're all working together to promote fairness and opportunity for people and communities. A fair share of the ten main committees would be four Labour, three Conservative, two Green and one Liberal Democrat, four, three, two, one. But six, three, none, one is proposed by the Labour leaders. This is anti-democratic. Secondly, why change the proportional representation of chairs when it worked well before? Conservative Councillors have nothing to say about this. Labour are making allegations and so on against the Greens as they usually do. But it's the Greens that actually have reached out to all parties and met with all party leaders and raised these concerns a year ago and we've consistently been ignored by the other parties. Why is that? Is it arrogance? Is it like Councillor Stewart said, it's about power? Is it the money? The Councillors occupying two chairs and one Transport Committee place will receive between them to £1,000. And why does fairness matter to the people who live on the Wirral? Because how this Labour-conservative coalition treats the Green Councillors is how they treat people who live on the Wirral too. Imposing their chairs, selling valued community assets like Bronborough library, denying the real living wage to workers in schools, failing children with special needs, and we share the concerns about safety for everybody including people who live in Gaza, people for whom you voted against a ceasefire on, people for whom bonds made on the Wirral, components made on the Wirral are complicit in bombing them and their safety matters to us too. Pat was chair of the Pensions Committee and has led the responsible investment policy on that, which has led to also the decarbonisation of the pensions portfolio to the value of millions of pounds. That's our pension funds and our council tax that are invested in these pensions in Medecide Pension Fund Committee and it's vital that we take into account the safety of people and the receiving end of those investments. So lastly, why are Labour and Conservative Councillors voting the same? Well it's funny I'm old enough to remember, just three weeks ago, Natalie Elthick MP elected as a Tory in 2019, she was welcomed into the arms of the Labour Party. Labour have changed for the worst. On Wirral, if you vote Labour, you get Tory. Councillor Byrd, your time's up please. Thank you, I'll just finish. If you vote Conservative, you get Labour. Thank you, Councillor Byrd. If you speak in a public meeting, you get heard by Labour and Conservative. It's only if you vote Green that you get Green. And our thought team Councillors, stand up to Green or lost themselves. And I'm proud to second this amendment. Thank you. Councillor Gilchrist. [applause] Councillor Gilchrist, you're going to second Councillor Cox's motion. As I was talking earlier, Madam Mayor, the issue about is being divided and confusing because there's a difference between the proportions on committees and the issue about proportions of chairs. There is proportions on the committees. If there are plenty of discussions that take place at Governance Working Party over the next few months, we might reach agreement about it in future. But does things stand to have things parachuted into the meeting the weekend before, is different. A mention was made of requests for this during the past year. Having sat on the Governance Working Party and the Constitution Standards Committee, I cannot recall any occasion where any member of the Green Party came along and said, We need to put proportionality of chairs back on the agenda please. And if somebody says, I missed it or forgot it, I will happily give way to them. But there have been since last year, 12 months, there have been since last year, several meetings of constitutional standards. There have been since last year regular meetings of the Governance Working Party to go into the smallest detail of some parts of the Constitution. But we were not approached or asked we think to sit down and work this through. And in the absence of that, I think it is unfair on the Council to suddenly leap into this and change what has been carefully discussed over several weeks of private meetings between all the parties as far as I know. So I think it is reasonable to pass this tonight. Thank you, Councillor Gilchrist. Councillor Cox, do you want to have the right of reply? Thank you very much. First of all, before we get going on that, I'd just like to clarify with Councillor Baird. The company that she's referred to is actually in her ward. Maybe she'd like to come clean with her own residence that she'd like to shut, tell about in CML, who are a major aerospace supplier as well and probably would risk Airbus as well, because I do remember them when I worked at Airbus and the amount of goods that they actually provide to the aerospace industry and probably that would risk certainly hundreds and thousands of jobs. So I look forward to seeing that in one of their upcoming party political leaflets. Madam Mayor, Councillor Clay makes me laugh with regards to exclusion when there are quite clearly those within his green group who would wish to sow division within the Wirral community purely in the interest of political advantage. Madam Mayor, to amend the council constitution without the level of scrutiny that all of the other changes receive is just plain wrong. The Green Party are clearly looking to extend the Local Governments and Housing Act 1989 and, with the declarations and proportionality by stamping their feet, it's purely because things have not gone their way in this instance. They don't like it. This is not the way to go about it. There are other tools at our disposal as Councillor Gilchrist has highlighted and I don't believe this is the way and the path that we should be changing the constitution. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Cox. Councillor Baird, you've got a point of order? Yeah, I'd like to make a personal statement in response to Councillor Cox's invitation. Sorry, no personal statement. If you've got a point of order that's fine, but not a personal statement, no. Sorry. Do you want to correct something that somebody's got wrong? Yes, okay, you can do that. I don't wish, as Councillor Cox implied, to close down Teledyne, which, as he rightly says, has a factory in Bromborough, my ward. I do want them to stop making components for companies that are complicit in war crimes. Mayor, if I could be allowed to finish what you've asked me to start. Thank you. I'd like Teledyne to stop making components. I'd like to stop the making components. I've got a point there, Councillor Baird, thank you. I hope that clarifies the situation. Can we go to the vote, please? Can I have a... Card vote. Card vote. I'd like a card vote now. Right, there will be a card vote, I ask the borough solicitor to deal with that, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Fails voting in favour of the amendments for the Green Amendment proposed this evening to amend the Constitution, as set out in the supplementary agenda. I'll start with the named vote. Councilor Ainsworth. For or against? Councilor Baldwin. Against. Councilor Basnet. Against. Councillor Bennett. Gary Bennett. Against. Councillor Stephen Bennett. Against. Councillor Baird. For. Councillor Booze. Against. Councillor Cameron. Against. Councillor Carribbia. Against. Councillor Cleary. For. Councillor Cook. For. Councillor Cox. Against. Councillor Davies. Against. Councillor George Davies. Against. Councillor Foulkes. Against. Councillor Gardner. Against. Councillor Gilchrist. Against. Councillor Gorman. For. Councillor Graham. For. Councillor Green. Against. Councillor Gray. Against. Councillor Greer. For. Councillor Hall. Against. Councillor Andrew Hodson. Against. Councillor Kathy Hodson. Against. Councillor Jenkinson. For. Councillor Jobson. Against. Councillor Jones. Against. Councillor Jordan. Against. Councillor Kelly. Against. Councillor Brian Kenny. Against. Councillor Tom Lang. Against. Councillor Lamb. For. Councillor Lewis. Against. Councillor Luxon Cooley. Against. Councillor Graham McManus. Against. Councillor Julie McManus. Against. Councillor Molyneux. For. Councillor Mountney. Against. Councillor Kieran Murphy. For. Councillor Tony Murphy. Against. Councillor Omwemina. For. Councillor, oh, Madam Mayor. Upstair. Upstair, thank you. Councillor Powell-Wilde. Against. Councillor Raymond. Against. Councillor Redfern. Against. Councillor Rennie. Against. Councillor Robinson. Against. Councillor Schillicoe. Against. Councillor Stuart Lang. Against. Councillor Kaitlyn Stewart. Against. Councillor Paul Stewart. Against. Councillor Sullivan. Against. Councillor Tomney. For. Councillor Craig Walsh McDonald for Councillor Jason Walsh McDonald for Councillor Williams Councillor Williamson against Councillor Wilson Councillor would again You You You The amendment is lost the votes in favour were 14 the votes against 46 and there was one amendment therefore One abstention. Sorry, therefore the vote was lost Can we move on now to the Original and substantive motion. Can we take the vote for that please? So can we have a show of hands, please? Can We have a vote in favour of the substantive motion Yes Yes, the vote the votes in favour are 60 votes and one abstention So that motion is carried. Thank We move on to 4b now Which is the appointments of committees? Members, we are asked to agree the recommendations as detailed on page 151 of the council summons. I Will move approval of the recommendation would any member wish to second? So second council Stewart. Thank you I'm unaware. I am aware of an amendment from the green group, which was circulated in the supplementary agenda papers Which is my intention to hold one debate on the motion and amendments with that Can I call on Councillors Bird and Cleary to move and second our amendments moved? seconded Thank You councillor bird you now have three minutes to speak to the amendment Thank you this likewise this amendment is also about fairness the fairness is enshrined in our Constitution regarding the number of places on each Committee is in proportion to the number of councillors that each party holds and that's fair We support that as we supported that of being applied to chairs and vice-chairs It's unfortunate that the liberal Democrat group didn't support that this year where they did vote the opposite way last year Because of the way the chairs where the places on committees are allocated it means it's usually a rounding up or rounding down of a couple of seats and We're just suggesting that One of those seats is allocated to the greens for Children's Committee rather than a second additional seat Allocated to the licensing committee also known as regulations and general purposes it's not particularly fair on that committee and it means that greens are missing out on another committee and Children's Committee frankly does need it there are additional measures being put in place for children with special needs and Additional green voices on that committee would be particularly helpful like many councils here I'm sure you also get calls every week from parents children with special needs who are frustrated as anything Because their children's educational needs aren't being met and they're not in good communication with the officers who are paid to do that So I urge you to support this amendment. It's not very controversial. Thank you very much Thank You Councillor Baird are there any further speakers No counts Councillor Cleary you have three minutes now as a second to the motion, I'm happy to formally second now. Thank you Councillor Stewart you now have three minutes to speak Thank You madam. I would commit to the vote. Thank you. I Won't exercise my right of reply there being no further speakers. I will now move to the vote So can I have those in favor of the green amendment? And can I have those against please You You You Thank you. There are 14 votes in favour, 46 against and one abstention, therefore the amendment is lost. Can we now move to vote for the original substantive motion? Can I have those in favour, please? Right. Those in favour are 46, votes against 14 with one abstention, therefore the substantive motion is carried. Thank you. Right. Can we now move to item agenda 4C, which is the appointment of Chairs and Vice Chairs of Committee? Now members, we are asked to appoint a leader of the Council who will also be Chair of the Policy and Resources Committee. Does anyone wish to make a recommendation? Councillor Davies. Madam Mayor, if I can nominate Paul Stewart, please? Thank you. Thank you. Do we have a seconder? So seconded, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Robinson. Are there any further nominations? No. There being no further nominations, can we agree by assent? We have a vote. Vote, please, Madam Mayor. What was that, Councillor Creary? Green Group is requesting a vote. A vote by show of hands? Yes. Right. Okay. Can we have a show of hands of those in favour? And a vote for those against, please. There are -- sorry, 46 votes in favour, 14 votes against and one abstention. And therefore, the motion is carried that Councillor Stewart becomes the leader of the Council. Thank you. I would like to invite Councillor Stewart to make his acceptance speech, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor. It's an honour to be elected leader again, and I want to thank members for putting their trust in me for a second year. We have made good progress as a Council over the past year, and firstly, we have seen the independent panel stand down. They described us as much improved and with a clear vision for the organization and our borough. We have made significant advantages in developing our Council plan, the priorities, which are to deliver high quality, efficient, universal services to all residents, to prioritize those with greatest needs, to deliver Council services within the means of a Council budget to prepare to innovate and face the future, to play our part in addressing the climate emergency and protecting our environment, to work with community voluntary and faith organizations and partners to improve all residents' life chances and to deliver an ambitious regeneration program through an increased investment, jobs, new businesses throughout the borough. This has also been a year where we've seen members working together to help put the Council on a firm financial footing. We have made significant progress on many regeneration projects with many more planned in the years ahead. We have a big year ahead, and Madam Mayor, I would just like to echo the comments that you have said in your acceptance speech as Mayor and earlier this evening. We cannot underestimate the work that is still to be done, but we will have many challenges, but we also have many opportunities. I want to take this opportunity as well to thank officers for their dedication and hard work. Our job would not be possible without the knowledge and expertise of officers, and I look forward to working together over the coming year with officers and members. I wish committee chairs well in the new municipal year, and particularly those new to the position of chair or vice-chair, and I offer thanks to all those who have served as chairs and vice-chairs in the last year as well. I look forward to the continued spirit of political groups and members working collaboratively together to do the best for the people of Whirlpool. Thanks very much. Thank you, Councillor Stewart. [Applause] Councillor, we are asked to appoint a deputy leader of the Council who will also be vice-chair of the Policy and Resources Committee. Does anyone wish to make a nomination? I would like to nominate Councillor Jean Robinson. Thank you, Councillor Stewart. Do I have a seconder? Yes, please, Madam Mayor. I would also like to second that. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Davies. Are there any further nominations? There have been no further nominations. Can we agree by a sentence? We request a vote on this as well, Mayor. Okay. Right. Can we just have a vote then, those in favour of Councillor Robinson becoming deputy leader of the Council, please? Those in favour? [Laughter] And those against, please? Thank you. The votes in favour are 46. The vote is against 14 with one abstention. Therefore, the motion is carried that Councillor Jean Robinson is elected deputy leader of the Council. [Applause] Right. Can we now move on to 4C on the agenda, which is the election of chairs and vice-chairs for all the other Council committees, other than those which the Council has decided should be appointed by the committee itself? Members are asked to appoint chairs for all these Council committees, and a list of proposed chairs and vice-chairs was circulated to members in the supplementary agenda. Can I now call on Councillor Stewart to recommend the -- move the recommendations circulated? So moved, Madam Mayor. And can I call on Councillor Robinson to second? So seconded, Madam Mayor. Also, Stewart, you have five minutes to speak to your motion. I am aware that a number of amendments from the Green Group which have circulated earlier today. It is my intention to hold one debate on the motion and amendments, but before that happens, the borough solicitor would like to make a statement. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Just before we deal with Councillor Stewart's speech, just to mention that the amendments that have been brought forward by the Green Group, they have sought advice from myself and my team in relation to the advancements of these promotions this evening, and they are permissible within the Constitution. So I just thought we would make that clear for all members of the Council. Thank you. Councillor Stewart. I have nothing to add, Madam Mayor. With that, I will call on Councillors Al education, Grier, Jenkins, Walsh, Graham, Gorman, Murphy and Cook to move and second their amendments. Move to move. In turn, please. Move, Madam Mayor. Seconded. Move, Madam Mayor. Seconded. Move, Madam Mayor. Seconded. Move. Seconded, Madam Mayor. Yes, I would prefer that you have stood up to propose your motion and seconded it, please. It's just common courtesy. Thank you. Right. Councillor Onwemany, Jenkins, Graham and Murphy, in turn, you now have three minutes each to speak to the amendments. Welcome to all new Councillors, congratulations to all newly appointed committee chairs and vice-chairs and to Madam Mayor. If quiet council truly upheld democracy and politics, the Green Party would be entitled to two chairs on the committee. Green Party Councillors, who, alongside all other Councillors in this Chamber, have been fairly and democratically elected to represent and voice the opinions of the residents of Wirral, who voted Green Party over Labour and Conservatives and the Lib Dems. However, Green Party Councillors have, for the second year running, been denied the offer of either chairs or vice-chairs on any of the ten committees under the current leadership. party possible places and Green Party Councillors have been overlooked and undervalued for each and every committee. But wait. Council has surpassed itself, as only four of the ten appointed chairs and two of the ten appointed vice-chairs have been allocated to women. It's hard to believe that it wasn't possible to find another four capable women for those positions amongst your ranks. Let's see what happens at Constitutional Standards. It's 2024 and apparently sexism is alive and kicking in the Council Chambers. In any case, I put myself forward as Chair of the Children's Committee. I feel I am qualified to hold the role as Chair due to my extensive child-centred experience as a nurse, a midwife, a health visitor, I've lectured in health and social care, I manage the Department of Child Care and Education at Stockport College, I've worked as an Ofsted inspector and I also worked as the quality assurance manager at Liverpool Community College when it was awarded a grade one by Ofsted. I currently work as a psychotherapist. I've put myself forward with absolutely no prospect of me being chosen because I'm a Green Party Councillor. I've highlighted how undemocratic and sexist this Council is becoming under its present leadership. Exclusion in the workplace is a form of bullying. It's neither acceptable nor accepted. I would hope that the women councillors who last year may have thought that excluding Green Councillors was a bit of sport can reflect on how that same undemocratic exclusion is now being applied to themselves. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Monxley. Councillor Jenkins, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor. And I apologise for not standing previously, it was an oversight on my part. No disrespect was intended. As a group, the Greens have proposed these four motions in the spirit of fairness and democracy representing the policies on which we were elected. The named Councillors across all of the motions have life and/or professional experience in the committees nominated and this is an important point. We should be using the talents that we have in the areas where they are most useful. So what could I bring to Chair of Audit and Risk Management? Obviously, I believe in social justice. There are vulnerable people, people who need our support across all of the world and we must keep that support available and one of my particular concerns will be ensuring that equality impact assessments are both fair and thorough because I had had occasion to doubt them. As a previous member of the Environment Committee and having worked on Green New Deal Committees, I am in a strong position to look across the board at reaching our climate challenges. As an individual, I have life experience of many of the issues facing both children and adults and as a professional, I have over 20 years in IT. I managed international projects for the UK and Europe's largest financial institution which is also one of the biggest in the world. I was responsible for two areas of UK IT compliance and one internationally. I'm used to picking out the detail, assessing wide-ranging impacts and drawing together disparate strategies into a single effort and cost-reducing one. And I am able to bring my specific practical and academic knowledge of systems to bear in a much neglected area. If the Horizon tragedy shows us anything, it is that there is a lack of relevant IT understanding in public positions. If we are to learn the lessons of that project as agreed in March full council and the debacle that resulted in £37 billion spent on a test and trace system that did not work at all, we may consider that someone with a thorough understanding of the technical issues as well as an understanding of the failure and accountability would be an asset in the chair of this committee. This motion, along with the other three proposals for chairs and vice-chairs, has been put forward in good faith. Our nominations are proposing people who have the skill set to fulfil the roles to a high standard to the benefit of the council's reputation and the people of Wirral. In this spirit, I am proposing myself as chair of the Audit and Risk Management Committee. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Jenkins and Councillor Graham. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I would like to put myself forward for vice-chair of the Environment, Climate, Emergency and Transport Committee because of my experience, my collaborative approach and to fairly represent the wishes of the Wirral residents. My experience in the environmental sector spans over a decade, focusing on pragmatic solutions to our environmental challenges and in particular solutions that also bring other benefits to Wirral residents. I have been a member of the Active Travel Forum and its predecessor since 2014. I contributed to Call 2, Wirral's climate emergency strategy, which this council adopted in 2019. I am a member of the Call Wirral partnership, initially representing community groups and latterly also as a councillor. I have held various roles in a range of organisations, including as a management consultant for large financial institutions, programme manager for businesses, a member of the senior leadership team for a national charity, project management in local governments and working in public private joint ventures. A collaborative approach to problem solving is key to delivery, as is an understanding of the importance of engaging diverse stakeholders in discussions and decision-making processes. By working together, we can find solutions that meet the needs of all our residents. I have led multi-organisational and cross-sector teams, often with diverse opinions, enabling them to work together to deliver solutions. The problems of poor environment and climate change fall hardest on our most vulnerable residents, whether it be access to green space, poor air quality, dangerous roads, excessive heat, worsening health conditions, flash flooding or waste and recycling management. Yet solutions to the environmental problems also deliver a huge benefit to those most vulnerable citizens. The health and wellbeing benefits we get from green spaces, public transport available for all, cleaner, safer streets and pavements, reduced waste, warm homes, financial savings, green jobs, healthier workforce and an improved local economy. World Green Party believes in fairer, greener communities that make life better for everyone. Effective representation is key to serving the community's best interests. Greens should be fairly represented in the Chairs and Vice-Chairs of our Committee and as such I would like to be considered as Vice-Chair of the Environment, Climate, Emergency and Transport Committee. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Graham. Councillor Murphy, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Given that the results of this vote have been decided and published before a single vote has been cast, I'd like to congratulate Councillor Stephen Bennett on his election as Vice-Chair of Licensing, etc. To his credit, I've actually worked with him on a couple of Licensing Panels and I've learned a lot from you. Thank you. However, given the forthcoming General Election, I'm a bit surprised that the two larger parties aren't trying to put a better distance between themselves. Frankly, decisions concocted in backroom deals do not serve democracy well. That said, if I was elected to the Vice-Chair of Licensing, I will... If elected to Vice-Chair of Licensing, etc., I will attempt to involve license holders more in decisions made about set licenses and in... As has been said, we in the Green Party believe in a collaborative and cooperative approach. I'd also like to bring ideas about dealing with security in terms of the... Exactly the nighttime environment and make sure this is just properly regulated. I will also bring proposals for publishing the work of the committees and outline why decisions are being made. To finish up, I will congratulate Councillor Bennis once again on his election as Vice-Chair of Licensing. Thank you, Councillor Murphy. Are there any speakers to this amendment? Councillor Gill. Yes, I've just checked Madam Mayor. I want to comment on what's been moved. Am I in the right place to do that? We've got speakers now, if you want to speak now for three minutes. Right. So, Mr. Mayor, when we set our budget, it was passed by all parties and were there any objections and we thought that this was part of getting us on the road for a better place. The proceedings this evening have not helped confirm that impression. The latest proposed suggestions on places came from the Green Group, only came out this afternoon. That meant that last minute changes appeared and they are not the way in a reasonably governed authority, not the way to show that this Council is working cooperatively. I have listened to the requests from members about chairs and vice-chairs and I acknowledge the experience that has been presented by members to us. The issue, though, is that the Government guidance that came out in April is clear that we should all consider the experience, expertise and ability to work as a group and as Councillors together. The document that came out as a Government document on 22nd April was about scrutiny. I'm sure people will read it. We only had the weekend to look at the suggestions being put forward by the leader, but we also only had the suggestions circulated today and that is not the best way to run the Council. We will, in time, need to have a succession strategy. I have to say there are old lags like me who have been there 40-odd years, but there are many other members who are much younger who have got experience and want to bring it before our committee system and our members will want to use that. But to spring things on the Council at this stage is not a way to secure that agreement amongst members who may be quite prepared to look at the skills others have and see how they can work constructively and collectively on all the committees. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Gilchrist. Right. Can we move to the seconders of the amendments? That are Councillors Greer, Walsh, Gorman and Cook in turn, please. So Councillor Greer first. Thank you. I'd like to second Councillor Onewemina as Chair of Children's, Young People and Education Committee and I really don't understand the comments that this sort of change would take hours of constitutional work and deliberation. A Year 6 class could deal with it. It's just basic percentages as well as being about common fairness and democracy, both of which are taught in school. And it's also not the surprise amendment that Councillor Gilchrist has said. The Green Group leaders have been attempting to discuss this with other group leaders for weeks. So with that in mind, I'm seconding Councillor Onewemina because of her skills, experience and personal qualities. She's excellent at detail, listening to people and working collaboratively. I won't repeat her professional experience. I have it here, but she's told you that herself, so I won't repeat that. I'll just end by assuring you that Councillor Onewemina would push our children and young people first, would listen to them and would work tirelessly to improve their opportunities and outcomes. Thank you, Councillor Greer. Madam Mayor, I wonder if you kindly take a point of order? Councillor Greer says the proposals have been circulated for weeks. The understanding that there was a desire for proportionality was mentioned, we did not get names of members to even consider till this afternoon. And that is not the way that we expect business to be done. Thank you. Councillor Walsh please. Thank you, Mayor. We've been discussing this for weeks with group leaders. It's just another exclusionary tactic to exclude the Greens. I don't know why I said last year it felt spiteful and spineless, I still stand by that. Gail Jenkinson will make it a fabulous Chair of the Audit and Risk Committee given her experience. She'll come in election, it's quite clear to see from this Council that if you vote red, you will get blue. Thank you, Councillor Walsh. Councillor Gorman please. So first of all, on the point of this being last minute, we didn't receive the names of the Chairs/Vice Chairs until yesterday, so you know, that's happening to everyone. And obviously, you know, we are allowed to submit things last minute and I think this is very clear to understand it is only a few sentences. I mean, we seem to be getting the impression that if somehow we become a bit more submissive, play ball, then somehow at some point we'll be given Chairs in the future. But it does seem clear that that approach is just to distract from the decision that they would have made anyway. The main example of our unco-operativeness is the fact that we're not willing to grin and bear it when they tell us we are not going to get our fair share of committees. So while we're not willing to, and I think it would harm democracy, if we had to become Labour's lap dogs, I'm not accusing any party of being Labour's lap dogs, in exchange for being Chairs, the whole point is as Councillors we should be able to speak out and groupthink as we saw during the last Labour majority administration doesn't help anyone. As a former Vice-Chair of each set, back in a more collegiate era, I'm delighted to be able to second Councillor Graham's appointment to the same position. I'd like to think we can all agree she has proven a very capable member of the committee, she is passionate about the environment and knows her brief back to front. For the sake of being brief, not wanting to repeat what all my colleagues have said, I will leave my speech there. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Gorman. Councillor Bird, you- Councillor Cook. Thanks very much. These proposals are really well-known- Councillor Bird, just a moment, it's Councillor Cook who's got to speak next. Okay, I just would like to take part in the debate- It's Councillor Cook. And I'm just like, excuse me, there's just one Chair and I'm talking to her. I'd like to speak in the debate and I'm concerned that if Councillor Cook closes as a seconder, that would be the end of the debate. There are no indications after Councillor Gilchrist to speak, so you've gone to the seconders, that moment's passed. Sorry, can we let Councillor Cook do the second in first, then we'll move to other speakers, okay. Thank you, Madam Mayor, for telling me I have to speak. I didn't know it was compulsory as a seconder. I will very briefly though. I don't wish to hold the meeting too long. We've had quite a few speeches. All I want to do is to recommend Councillor Kieran Murphy to be appointed as Vice Chair of the Licensing Regulation and Human Process Committee. He has made a considerable effort over the last year to attend meetings great in convenience to himself. At the solar campus, for example, which is easy for any of us to get to by public transport. And it would be nice to see somebody other than a Conservative or a Labour member, Chair or Vice Chair of that committee. I don't think I've seen it so far, but it will make a change. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry, Councillor Byrd, we've already had the discussion for this now. We're moving to the motion being seconded by Councillor Robinson. So you literally just said after Councillor Cook there will be other councillors to speak and I want to speak as part of the debate. Sorry, please can you listen to the ruling from the Borough Solicitor. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Just for clarity, my understanding is that we had all the movers of the motion. So Councillor Onwemena, Councillor Jenkinson, Councillor Graham and Councillor Murphy as the proposals of the motion. We then had debate and Councillor Gilchrist stood up and spoke. We didn't see any further indications of people wishing to speak. So the seconders were then requested to participate. So we've just gone through all of the seconders. So the moment for debate has passed and we've just gone through to the seconders. So the seconders is now Councillor Robinson on the substantive motion. I literally was invited to speak by the Mayor and was told that I could do so at the Mayor's discretion. If the Mayor's choosing to exercise different discretion she could maybe. I'm available. I misunderstood what you were trying to do Councillor Baird. I thought you had a point of order. Clearly that moment has passed. So can we go to Councillor Robinson? All right, thank you Madam Mayor. Councillor Stuart, you now have a right of reply for up to three minutes. Thank you Madam Mayor. I'm going to reply to set the record straight that we haven't been in discussion, and Councillor Gilchrist has made this clear, and there's point of order for a few weeks. It's not correct. It's just over a week. And we entertained, as the Labour leadership, the greens twice in exchange of multiple emails. And they wanted to propose something that they then withdrew when it came to the second meeting. Because they clearly didn't want to put on the table what it was that they discussed with the deputy leader of the council prior to meeting the second time. So to try to indicate that somehow they haven't been included in these discussions is just a downright lie. Because they have and there is email trails that at one point included all leaders. And then took some leaders out of those email trails to try and get some deal that they wanted done. What they didn't do was tell us what chairs or vice chairs that they wanted. They wanted to agree with what their principle of fairness is. But part of their proposals, Madam Mayor, of their proposals for fairness was to reduce representation on committees. For elected members, including removing two seats for the Lib Dems. That would have meant that the Lib Dems would have had no voice on two committees from their proposals. So that's what they mean by fair. And I bring it back to what Pat said earlier, which is this is about power. It's not about fairness. And it's their interpretation of fairness, not a real interpretation of fairness. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Stewart. We're now going to move to the vote on the green amendments. Now we're going to take these. Are we taking these individually? What's your- >> Sorry, Madam Mayor. Sorry, can you ask that question again, sorry? Sorry. Madam Mayor, can I propose that we, given we've heard the speeches, that we vote on the various amendments, the full list of amendments, as one. So we have a single vote on the amendments, and then we can make a determination. Yes, thank you. Can I have somebody second that proposal? Yes, Madam Mayor, I'll second that. Just please check that everybody's in agreement. No. >> With that way of moving forward. That's what she said. Those in favor, please. No. >> No, she's on the phone. I'd like to make a little proposal. Just to put your hands down a minute, Councillor Bird is on her feet. Yeah, so it's in the standing orders that amendments are voted on one at a time, and we'd like that to happen, please, thank you. Madam Chair, I understand that we're asking the room this today, if we wish to deal with the amendments individually, or if we wish to deal with those on block. I understand that a motion has come forward from Councillor Martin, to ask for that to be on block, and I think that's been seconded by Councillor Stewart. So I think in these circumstances, we're looking to take the will of the room, and if you wish to vote on that to determine how you wish to proceed, then we can do that. If it helps, Madam Mayor, I'm prepared to add that the relevant standing order is set aside, good wording, on this particular occasion, so the will of the room can be- Right, do we have a seconder for that proposal, that the standing order that relates to it is set aside? If it's appropriate, Madam Mayor, I'm happy to second that. But we're happy to take advice from the Director of Law. Madam Mayor, I've conferred, and we don't think it's necessary to stand aside the standing order. And we think it's appropriate and helpful for the Chamber to vote on the process to determine how it wishes to deal with this vote on these amendments. So the proposal is for those to go on block, or for those to be dealt with individually. So those in favor, Madam Mayor, would be the next step to determine if they wish to do that on block. So it'd be a for and against. Have you got a point of order, Councillor Byrd? Yes, I do. The Constitution is agreed. We all just agreed amendments to the Constitution. So it's not in the gift of this meeting to express its will or whatever, to ignore the Constitution. You can't just dispense with standard orders just because they're inconvenient. They're here to provide the rules of debate, and they should be complied with. Whether or not people want to agree the rules of debate or not, we've already pre-agreed them, and they should be followed. And that is that amendments under discussion shall be disposed of before the next amendment is dealt with. So the vote happens one amendment at a time. Thank you. Thank you. We'll defer to what the borough solicitor's got to say. [BLANKAUDIO] [INAUDIBLE] [BLANK_AUDIO] Madam, we're relying on paragraph 15.15 of the Constitution. Sorry, I just need a little moment to find it, where we have the joint debate, which is the rules that we've been accepting and conducting this council since July last year. And so we are relying on 15.15, where all of the amendments are put on the table at the same time. If the chamber feels that it would be helpful and more appropriate to waive the standing order to make that clear, we can do it. I don't believe it's necessary, but if that's the will of the chamber, we will go along accordingly. [BLANKAUDIO] Right, well we'll take a vote and see if people are in favor of taking these votes on block. So those in favor to start with. [BLANKAUDIO] Okay, and those against. [BLANK_AUDIO] [INAUDIBLE] Okay. All right, so. [BLANK_AUDIO] [INAUDIBLE] [BLANKAUDIO] Okay. Votes in favor are 45, votes against 15, and 1 abstention. Therefore, that motion is carried that we vote on block for those amendments. So can we now vote please? On the green amendments. On the green amendments is what we're voting now. So those in favor of the green amendments, all four together, can you put your hands up please? [BLANKAUDIO] And those voting against the green amendments please. [BLANKAUDIO] That vote is 14 in favor, 46 against with one abstention. Can we now go on to vote for the, that motion is lost. Can we now go on to vote for the original substantive motion please? Those in favor? [BLANKAUDIO] And those against. [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] Votes in favor are 46, votes against 14, abstentions won. Therefore, that motion is carried. Thank you. Can we now move on to 4D, which is the appointment and nomination to other bodies and organizations. Members are asked to appoint or nominate, as the case may be, members, officers, or others, as appropriate, to represent the council on various outside organizations. I now call on Councillor Stewart to move the recommendation. So moved, Madam Mayor. Thank you, and Councillor Robinson to second, please. So seconded, Madam Mayor. Thank you. Councillor Stewart, you now have five minutes to speak to the motion. I will exercise that way, Madam Mayor. Okay, I'm aware of an amendment from the Green Group, which was circulated in the supplementary agenda papers. It is my intention to hold one debate on the motion and amendment. With that, I call on Councillors Lamb and Molyneux to move and second their amendment, please. Yeah, moved, Madam Mayor, thanks. Seconded. [BLANKAUDIO] Sorry, where are you, Councillor? I didn't see you stand up, where are you? There you are, okay, thank you. [BLANKAUDIO] Councillor Lamb, you now have three minutes to speak to the amendment. Thanks, Madam Mayor. This amendment is yet another polite attempt to encourage my fellow members to enable Democratic fairness and proportionality. Relatively simple math shows that Labour taking three out of the four seats available to rural members of the Liverpool City Region Transport Committee didn't add up last year. Can we see change this year? Almost, but admittedly not quite a quarter of rural council members agree, and we think it's fair that a seat is given to one of our members. Our amendment is very simple and seeks to enable that. We think that it is an amendment that could prove useful to all groups in the years ahead. That's all. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Lamb. Are there any speakers to this motion? Councillor Berg first, please. Thanks very much. Again, as Councillor Lamb said, this is again about proportional representation and fairness. And it seems that only the greens are in favor of proportional representation in principle and in practice. Our proposals have been well known for a long time, if you've been listening. The facts are that even under first past the post the greens are winning. There are now 14 green councillors, a fifth of this council. And recently greens won over 800 seats across the country. Feedback shows that more green MPs will be elected at the next general election in six weeks time. In Birkenhead, more people voted green than Labour in the last local elections, 24,000 people. It looks like Labour and Conservatives are rightly scared that even more voters are moving to the Green Party, because time after time we see rural Labour and Conservative councils consistently voting together. Labour are the largest single group here and could work together with any of the other three parties, but their partner of choice is the Conservative Party. Only the greens are elected for and consistently promote a fairer, greener, we will. We are voted into defend the green belt and green spaces not to break promise after promise. And it's only if you vote green, you get green. Our 14 green councillors have all spoken this evening. We consistently stand up for fairer, greener, we will. And I'm very proud to support this motion and amendment. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Gilcrist, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I suspect it's about 30 odd years since I actually served on what was Mersey Travel when I fought for Easton Rake Station. But in those days and still the proportions on Mersey Travel on the transport committee are looked upon across the whole of Merseyside. And when I looked at the chart on the city region website, I saw, of course, a substantial number of Labour members. But I also did see green members from other authorities. So in terms of proportions on Mersey Travel as such, the Green Party is represented by other councillors from other areas. I suppose, on reflection, after all the debate we had this evening and about where we're going the next few years, which may be resolved in the next few weeks if the election's called. It's a matter of regret that the underlying tensions we've seen tonight will not be resolved till the general election is out of the way. And so that the uncertainty that we face over the funding of our services can be resolved. And no doubt the city region mayor will play a major part in arguing with any future government the need for resources for transport on Merseyside that we'd like to see and the progress with the buses. But in terms of where we are with proportions, they have to fit in with what is seen as a Merseyside wide system. And changing it here may not work to the extent that the Greens seek at this night. Thank you, Councillor Gilchrist. Councillor- Sorry, Madam Mayor, did you say -- Councillor Caulk, yes. Thank you, Madam. Okay, thank you, Madam Mayor. By way of introduction to my short speech supporting the Green Party amendment to the motion on appointments to outside bodies. I'd like to reiterate our position on the inflated allowances lavished on members of the LCR transport committee. Starting at nearly 6,000 pounds a year for attending just five annual meetings. Yes, that's 1,200 pounds per meeting, lasting just two to three hours including briefings which many appointees fail to attend. And that's when members of this council in the past have objected to the council spending 500 pounds a day on outside consultants. Most of this money, across the whole of the situation on the transport committee, at least 100,000 pounds of it in my view, should be subsidizing bus routes deemed unprofitable by the privately run bus companies. We learned recently that extending a route in the Birkenhead area, for example, would cost just a few thousand pounds annually. Reducing to a sensible level the allowances of the 24 members of the committee with its extremely limited role, could support, extend, or introduce several much needed bus routes across the region. Until we were unfairly cut out of the committee last year, the Greens were hoping to appoint a member who frequently uses public transport. It's important that as far as possible, the 24 members of the transport committee, four from each authority, are representative of a cross section of groups in society who most use and depend on public transport. For example, the elderly, parents with young children, people with disabilities, and those who cannot afford a private car or choose not to drive for environmental or other reasons. I suspect many of the mainly middle aged councilors currently on the transport committee haven't seen the inside of a bus for years. I shouldn't have to make a speech in order to claim one place for the Greens on the LCR transport committee. Madam Mayor. Madam Mayor, I thought we would discourage a just comments in- Councillor Cook, sit down please. And any discrepancies. Steve. I think to be- Councillor Foulkes. To describe people by their age is an ageist comment. Councillor Foulkes, sit down please. Right. If you could confine your comments to what the topic is, please. [INAUDIBLE] Councillors, okay, our green group should get one seat out of four. This point's been made before, it's very hard to argue about this actually. Last year, Labour think they should have three places out of four with even fewer Councilors. That's 75% of the seats with just 44%, or 29 out of 66 Councillors. This is plain but mathematics, unrepresentative and anti-democratic. To conclude, our previous monitoring officer told members of the constitution standards working groups and in other forums that the political proportionality principle was assumed to apply right across the local city region. So I'm not sure why it doesn't apply to the transport committee. Thank you. Councillor Kelly, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor, just to return us to the amendment. I mean, I don't know if it's- >> [LAUGH] That's just for a change, we can adjust ourselves to the amendment. And I also carefully to the considered words of the mover of the amendment, who addressed the point precisely. Now, there's been some disagreement in this chamber, clearly, tonight. But the one thing I think we all agreed on was that the makeup of all the committees across the board, the bottom line, needs to be proportional to the party's strength on this council. Well, I mean, it's not about us agreeing with it, it's the law. Actually, we've got to do it. So, I mean, potentially, if we didn't have to do it, then God knows what we'd be talking about tonight. But it's the law, we've got to do it. I think a point was made in between attacking people who don't use buses or don't use them as regularly as the Green group would deem acceptable. And was the point that the Liverpool city region, scrutiny board has to be, again by law, proportional across the city region. The transport committee, however, does not. The fairness, we've heard that word a lot, haven't we, fairness would suggest that the transport committee, given that it's a regional committee, ought actually to be proportional across the councils. And Madam Mayor, I'm afraid I better out myself as the geek with the spreadsheets. The director of law knows this already. I've had a look, following the elections in Sefton and other places across the city region, to see what the make-up is of all the councillors elected as a percentage, and how that then translates into the transport committee. And I can tell members in figures, building on what Councillor Gilchrist has said, that the Green group are entitled, the Green Party across the Monaside city region, are entitled to 8.5% of the seats on the transport committee. That's two, that's two. Madam Mayor, I can tell members that they have two members appointed to that committee, one from Moseley and one from St. Helens. Interestingly, Madam Mayor, if the Green group wanted to come to this council to make an argument for proportionality on the transport committee, it's not a place to the Green group it should go, because the group that is under-represented on that committee across the city region is the Conservative group. If you brought an amendment to us that said, really, this should be two Labour and two Conservatives, that way we would get proportionality on that committee and it would be fair, then you would be asking the Conservatives to replace one of the Labour members. Now wouldn't that have been more interesting? Thank you, Councillor. [APPLAUSE] Madam Mayor, in conclusion, if I may, Councillor Gilchrist pondered whether all our problems would be solved if the general election was called. I have to say to Councillor Gilchrist, the general election is on. The general election is on. It is on the source of July and like the American of old we look forward to our liberty from Mr President. Thank you, Councillor Kelly. Councillor Cleary, please. Thank you, Mayor, and yeah, follow that, I suppose. But I did note that Councillor Kelly was allowed to speak for considerably longer after the red light went on, which was not, was not, was not. Well, you can scoff. You can scoff. But, but, yeah. I want to make a few points based on what has been said previously. Firstly, in relation to what Councillors Gilchrist and Kelly have just said. We've got Councillor Kelly has pointed out is that the appointment of members across the region for various committees is all over the place, and it needs codifying to be fair, reasonable and democratic, which it currently is not. Last year, when we brought forward our amendment on a fair allocation of committee places through the Constitution, the Liberal Democrats voted for it. All voted for it. This year they voted against. Yeah, this year they voted against. Totally changed their mind. Voted one way last year, different way this year. Flip flop, flip flop. So the point is they completely changed their mind, haven't they, on the same issue. On the committee, on the committee places, we're being criticised for bringing forward a last minute amendment on a proposal that was issued last night. How can you amend something until it's been actually proposed? So it very much seems the Lib Dems are trying to concoct reasons to vote with Labour and the Conservatives and in ways that they did not do in the past. Councillors, can you please let Councillor Cleary have his say. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you for your indulgence, I do appreciate it. I am today, 10 years, a member of this authority. It's 10 years ago today that I was elected. And I've been used over those 10 years to the disrespect that particularly the Labour and Conservative groups, and we see it in spades tonight, demonstrate towards Green Councillors, our mandate is just as good as yours. We deserve the same respect as every other member. And I am - yeah, and we are in it. Look at us. Look at all of us. Look at the votes we're getting. Okay, what I get, Mayor, what I get, Mayor, is constant interruption. And I hope over the course of this year, I hope over the course of this year, that will be suitably addressed. But I am used to the Labour Party sulking about the presence of Green members in this chamber. Well, please keep it up, because we are thriving. Thank you. [Applause] Councillor McManus, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm - Councillor Cleary, you talk about democracy and flip-flops. Well, one of your own wears flip-flops every day and has no idea what democracy means. Councillor Baird, I think you have a selective memory. The Greens did not win 14 seats, and so I'm going to correct you. One of your members stood and fought on a Labour ticket and within six months defected to your numbers. People in Grisby, Frankby and Erby, when I'm knocking on doors, are asking me why the Greens stole their vote. And like me, and I feel the same, why did you steal my vote? So perhaps on the Fourth of July, that's an opportunity that that particular Councillor might call a by-election under her new Green banner and see how well she does then. [Applause] Councillor Tom Langer, please. Thank you. I don't want to detain Councillor much longer, but I was going to follow on very much from what Councillor - Councillor Kelly said, because I was also going to make that point exactly. The Greens want to talk about proportionality and fairness, but it's about fairness across the whole of Merseyside. Because ultimately, the elections that affect Merseyside Transport Committee weren't just elections here in Wirral, they were elections across the whole of Merseyside. So really, the Greens are saying they would like to win more seats across the whole of Merseyside. Well, go out there, win those votes and work hard to get those seats if you want them. That's entirely up to the voters of Merseyside. You don't get to use the votes of Wirral to try and claim extra representation on the whole of Merseyside, do you? That's hardly fair. And actually, the point about sitting on buses, I actually use buses quite a lot, as well as the trains. So I actually do know what it is to sit on the bus. Yes, I have used the bus, and I have every faith in the current members of the Transport Committee to continue to do their work in order to ensure that we bring our buses back under public control. And I look forward to the election of a Labour government at the end of this general election campaign, where we can bring public transport on the trains back under public control too, and get the investment we desperately need in this region. So I hope everyone votes Labour on the 4th of July. Thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor Lange. That's the last speaker, so we'll go to Councillor Molyneux. You've got three minutes now to second this amendment. Thank you, Mayor. As Greens, we recognise that good, effective public transport is necessary if we are to have a sustainable society. So it seems only fair that the Greens should be well represented on the LCR Transport Committee. And we feel that Wirral is uniquely placed, because we're separated from the rest of the region by the river. So maybe Wirral should have a bigger say on the Transport Committee. Yeah. Sorry, can you please let Councillor Molyneux continue what she's got to say? Thank you. What is disproportionate on the LCR Transport Committee is the representation of women. Male members outnumbered female members by 20 to 6 in the last municipal year. Women are in a very vulnerable group, and if they have to use public transport, and often buses turn up late, or not even at all, we're very vulnerable waiting in isolated places. I understand that because I use public transport, I don't drive at all. I use trains and buses, and often I'm less stranded in the middle of the night, or late at night with no bus. This is like really scary. So, I think it's only fair and democratic that more women should be represented on the Transport Committee. And I would like to put myself forward for that. Thank you. I'd like to second the motion. Thank you Councillor Molyneux. Councillor Robinson, you now have three minutes to speak. Okay, I'm right. Thank you Madame Mayor. Councillor Stewart, you now have the right to reply for up to three minutes, please. Thank you, Madame Mayor. I will keep my reply short and sweet. This, tonight, has gone off from what should have been transport to a party political broadcast by the Greens, which you can always count on the Greens to do that in any given opportunity, especially Councillor Baird. But, along that vein, I'll take part in that tonight. I think it's absolutely ludicrous to think that the Greens are going to get a general election win across Whittle and Merseyside. And with that, when the general election has been called, so when people go out to vote, I do hope that they vote Labour because things can only get better. Thank you Councillor Stewart. We will now move to the vote, please. On the Green Amendment, can I have those in favour, please? And those against. There are 14 votes in favour, 46 against with one abstention. So the amendments are lost. Can we now move to the original and substantive motion, please? Those in favour. And those against. That looks to me like that was unanimous vote. Yes? Is anybody against, anybody? Just got one abstention. Sixty votes in favour and one abstention. And that now completes our business for this evening. Thank you and good night. [BLANKAUDIO]