Transcript

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Good evening, good evening, one and all. Welcome to the Strategy and Resources Committee on the 13th of June, 2024. My name is Councillor Mark Durham, and I'm the chairperson for this committee. Members, we are streaming this meeting live as well as recording and being present in the meeting. You are giving your consent to being recorded during each item. Please put your hand up to indicate if you wish to speak, then I'll invite you at the appropriate time. I'll ask members to avoid approaching the top table as this could create interference with the cameras and livestream. Please note that the YouTube livestream sound recording is dependent on the correct use of the microphones, therefore, can I ask you that when invited to speak, you remember to turn on your microphone, more importantly, turn it off when finished. Please reference a page or paragraph number when referring to the agenda papers, keeping your contributions clear and concise as possible, and please avoid repeating things that have already been said. Item 2, apologies for absence. Do we have any-- We have no apologies tonight. Excellent. Thank you very much indeed. So, it's recommended that the minutes of the meeting held on-- somebody help me with the date. 14th of March, Chair. Thank you, 14th of March. Are approved as true and accurate record. I say move. Is there a seconder for that, please? Councillor Spence. I have Councillor Spence. Councillor Spencely. Was that a proposer or a seconder? Or Councillor Flugram, you were probably indicating to question the minutes if I-- Who are you to get into the murky backwaters of my mind? I was merely seconded in them, Chairman. Oh, thank you very much. Right. So, it's proposed and seconded, but then Councillor Stamp. Yeah, just one-- two things really. Page 7, it's not a steak park, it's a skate park, hopefully. Well, we don't. Well, it would be really nice if we had a steak park and it was all free of charge or whatever. Sorry if I offend any vegetarians or vegans. And I would like to raise just a matter of-- if you can maybe help me, Chair. Page 7, things that have been resolved, the little four. I'm just wondering that when decisions are made, when are they followed up? Because I'll read it out for you and then you can explain to me. That further detail be brought back to the committee in respect of the invest to save business case for the fixed term IT specialist role. Now, I remember this debate and it concerns me that sometimes things aren't being followed up from this committee. So, at PG&A, we have the matters arising and then anything that's been agreed on is to be looked into or brought back is registered and can come back so you've got an audit thread and it can be monitored. So, if you tell me if I'm wrong and it is happening then that's fine. And I will ask for proof. Can somebody help me with that? We don't have any news on that particular item. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, apologies. So that one hasn't been brought back to the committee yet but we will commit if it's appropriate to bring that, to report back to members outside of this meeting if you prefer to have that information more quickly or if not to the next committee meeting in July. Chair, could I actually ask that it comes back to the committee even if it's just for noting. It means then we've got a record of things that are being done at this council. Thank you. Of course. Well, it does have to come back. Councillor Flick is absolutely right. It will come back. Item 4, Declaration of Interest to Disclose the Existence and Nature of Any Disclosable Pecuniary Interests. Right. I have a proposal and seconder. Do we agree those minutes? Agreed. Thank you very much. So to continue to disclose the existence and nature of any disclosable pecuniary interest, other registrable interest, non-registerable interest, relating to items of business on the agenda having regard to paragraph 9 and appendix B of the Code of Conduct of Members. Members, you are also reminded that you're required to disclose any such interest as soon as you become aware should the need arise through the meeting. Do we have any declarations of interest tonight? Thank you very much indeed. Public participation. I can advise members that we haven't received any submissions from members of the public. Is that still correct, Ms. Bird? Yes, Chairman, that's right. We have a process of public participation. Excellent. Okay. That takes us on to the first report of the evening which is item 6, council tax empty homes premium policy revision and that is the report of the chief finance officer. Thank you, Chair. And so the purpose of this report is to inform members of a delay to the legislative provisions to increase the period of time before which council tax premiums would become payable in certain circumstances. And the report seeks to decide whether council wishes to amend those previously agreed-- their previously agreed policy to enable those provisions to be applied locally in advance of that legislation being made. The summary of the changes in which-- the circumstances in which those provisions would be made is set out in section 3 of the report and the full revised policy is set out as an appendix to the report. And I think Sue Green is on the call as well if there's further detail that the committee would like. Thanks. Oh, well we do-- always nice to hear from Mrs. Green if she has anything additional to add. Thank you, Chairman. Chief Finance Officer has covered the report very well. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. So this is basically just because of a delay in the legislation relating to this because we had already agreed the additional council tax. So, Councillor Frigg, you've got your red light showing. Thanks, Chairman. I just wondered if Ms. Green could confirm what her department does when they receive information about empty homes. Fair question. Ms. Green. Thank you, Chairman. So where we do receive information and then that information is reviewed to determine whether or not that property does constitute an empty property. If we require further investigations, for example, visit to the premises, etcetera, that could be arranged. Once we're satisfied about the circumstances as to whether that property would be considered empty after the legislation, then our IT systems will be amended to ensure that that reflects the date that that property became empty and that that would automatically trigger the additional cash tax, proving the appropriate time. And we come back to them. So the time expended on that, what would that normally be, the timeline to do that process? That would depend on the circumstances and we aim to deal with all inquiries within a matter of five to seven days. But it depends on how long it would take to provide it to ascertain further information that may be required. So that could be a period of weeks. So it will depend on the individual circumstances but we will always aim to do that as quickly as possible. Okay. Thank you very much. Any other questions relating to this? We have three recommendations. Provision is made for the extension of the time. Council tax premium becomes due. And then little two, that you approve the premium policy in Appendix A. And little three, that the head and Bensby be granted delegated authority in conjunction with the chairperson of SNL to make any further technical amendments to reflect updated guidance should it come along. I need a proposer and seconder to agree those, please. We've got Councillor Siddle and Councillor Thomson. Are we in agreement, members? We agree. Thank you very much indeed. Chairman, just bring up the recommendation to Council. Fine. Thank you very much indeed. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Next item on the agenda is, which one is extra? Okay. Item seven, the project and improvement management framework and the Malden District Council productivity plan. Oh, dear. Good old productivity plan. And again, that is actually going to be to a strategy and resources. Thank you, Chair. I'd like to hand over to Cheryl Hughes who's online to present this report. Thank you. [inaudible] This helps to improve our strategic overview of projects and improvement work and the combination also supports a corporate resource reduction. The document details the approach that we take to projects and improvement work in the organisation and it includes the internal governance processes and steps for projects and also our technical approach to improving our processes. The work is supported by a small team that play a facilitating and reporting role and builds capacity for improvement and project delivery in the organisation through training to monitor staff. As highlighted in the report, we see this as a key part of the productivity plan for Malden District Council, which was requested by the department for levelling up housing in communities and sits alongside the technology strategy and the data management and insights strategy. Appendix 2, which is found at page 71 of your agenda pack, is a high-level plan document which shows the activity that the intent is or we are already doing and having progress against the requirement of productivity plan criteria with the suggestion that a six-monthly update is then reported back to the Council. Thank you very much. Members, Councillor Stem. Yeah, could I just have clarification on the appointments? It said in May, page 43, Chair. May 2023 elections, Councillor Bell and Councillor Thompson were appointed as the new member improvement champions at the Performance Governance and Audit Committee. How long was this appointment for on the terms of reference of putting this group together? And since there's been a change of chair and vice-chair in that committee, is this going to change or affect any more working groups or any more meetings that you have? Because I don't think it's been reported as yet to myself or Councillor Nix Spencely. If it has, then forgive me. Thank you. Yes. But it's not come to me, Councillor Flug. Do we have-- Chair, could I have a supplementary, please? Of course, yes. Do we have any indication of when that may be? Thank you. I thought it was on the agenda for Tuesday's PGA, but if not, sorry, that's something we've missed and we'll pick it up the next month. No apology necessary. It's just clarification misused. It's not a criticism. It's just so I knew what was happening. So thank you. Yeah, it's due to be the first meeting of those who can speak. [ Inaudible Remark ] Councillor-- did-- Councillor Flugger. Yeah, thanks, Chair. And I've read through this and, you know, it's a pretty standard document really. Yeah, the thing that I thought was interesting, Chairman, it was actually on page 1 and the image in the top right-hand corner 'cause I couldn't help noticing that the shadow levelling up secretary, I'm sure that's not what she's called at the moment, was hoping to get more council members back into the offices and that's clearly not what that photograph shows. So, perhaps that might need to be amended, Chairman. Any other members? Members, we got two recommendations, little one, little two, little one that the project management of the-- project management office, PMO, be adopted and little two that we approve the productivity plan proposal and seconder, please. OK. I've got Councillor Spencely, Councillor Siddle, those all in agreement? Yeah. Thank you very much indeed. [ Inaudible Remark ] Yes, of course. Thank you. Of course you can. Item 8 is the technology strategy, 2024 to '27, that's been found on-- from pages 73. And again, that is the director of strategy and resources. Yes. Thank you, Chair. And again, I'd like to hand over this time to the assistant director of resources, Annette Cardy. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Paul. So, as I've seen in the previous items, the technology strategy is a key component of the council productivity plan as Cheryl just mentioned. It defines how the council will use the technology and transform the way it works additionally over the next three years. The strategy and the company road map are built on learning for the past three years around the council system capabilities, development type of new processes and organisational strengths and weaknesses. It has four main priorities. The first is the cyber and security. So managing the security and compliance of our systems and this will ensure the security and stability of all systems at the highest priority. The second priority is the modern IT infrastructure that enables digital transformation. As part of that, we will do a structured and step change process to automate the services based on the available resources with achievable timelines and agreed outcomes. The third priority is the strategy to streamline processes to create an agile and flexible digital service model, working towards providing efficiencies, improved quality and savings where achievable with IT. And the last priority is the strategy of the system and data centre. To develop information within this customer insight and to move towards an improved knowledge and use of database to inform service delivery. The draft strategy is provided at Appendix 1 and I'd like to invite any questions. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. So we got one recommendation which is to the council to approve this but Councillor Stamp. Thank you. Can I actually ask if you're going to do some in-depth member training because I'll put my hands up and say I'm absolutely useless at a lot of the things that we offer and you members of staff and officers are absolutely superb at it and I'm not and I do feel especially at the moment I'm being definitely left behind. So could I actually ask through you chair if we can have some proper sessions even if they're, you know, one to four members with one IT person and we come at different times to actually help us negotiate because if it wasn't for the lovely IT department again on Monday I most probably would have turned up next week to this meeting because I'd lost it off my phone. So I do actually think this is really needed that members understand the technology and the direction we're going through, going towards as well and I hold my hands up. I'm not as au fait as what I should be to support this council going forward. Thank you. I agree there should be an ongoing training programme but Councillor Siddal. Chair, can I add something to the agenda if that's okay. We are holding sessions for members regularly. I think they're about every month a week, every couple of months and we're doing them just before committees so they're quite good times for members to drop in and if you'd like to drop me a line I'll let you know when the next session is off, that would be helpful. Councillor Stamp, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that Miss Cardy but I actually find that too much especially if you've been working 6-9 on your computer and then you're expected to come up here, have a training session and then do a committee. That is not what I would like so I'm sorry to be a nuisance but if I could have it as a shorter, sharper session it would certainly help me. If other members want to support or they don't have the same learning issues as I do, I accept it but I think that's too much for me. I'll go to Councillor Siddal next. Yeah, thank you. They are short, sharp sessions for-- Say that quickly. Yeah, exactly, yeah, before full council. So, yeah, so they're at 6 o'clock, you know. It says that if members want to have it at a different time, then we can take that to the member training working group and schedule a time but yeah, the next one is July the 14th, I think, when the next full council is. So, yeah, the idea was and that's why Miss Cardy decided to, you know, in that IT schedule at those times because they thought everybody would be here. So, you know, if we need to schedule them at a different time but they are occurring every six weeks, so we just need to schedule them at a different time. I think in fact I can understand the reasoning behind that but, you know, for some people to get in here for 6 o'clock is difficult, particularly ahead of usually a fairly full on full council. It's rather too much, I think. So, I think the idea was right but perhaps an alternative time, you know, perhaps we can look at small group sessions at different times, you know, maybe even during the day. I'm sure that would be, I'm sure that would be useful but perhaps we can look into that. But apart from that, so the recommendation to council, sorry, Councillor Driver, do you want to-- Well, just Councillor Flugo-- Oh, Councillor Flugo, yeah. Chairman, I just wondered if the officer could go to implications on page 75, number Roman 4, where it says impacts on resources financial. Chairman, I wondered if you could confirm what happened to all of the members' old iPads. My understanding was that they were to be disposed of or they were to be recirculated or recycled or whatever. And I think that question should be extended out to all of our IT equipment. Where does it go? I mean, a long, long time ago, I can remember when we used to offer it to, you know, minor local authorities, the parish and town councils. That hasn't happened for a long, long time. And also, to schools, and I know the south is the primary school who, by the way, Chairman, should be commended because for the first time in, I'm going to say 30 years, they had special needs and Ofsted awarded them good status. But, Chairman, that aside, you know, a school like Southman, I'm not even going to use the D word, but they would absolutely welcome any surplus IT equipment from this council. So I'm not expecting Ms. Cardy to answer the primary question, but perhaps you might like to email me after the meeting and let me know. Thank you. It's a very good point, Councillor Flugo. And I can't speak for Malden, but I know that Essex did that and particularly during the pandemic, we handed out nearly 2,000 devices to children and people that were unable to take part in their lessons. So whether we were part of that, I would hope so. But Ms. Cardy, do you know that, just out of interest? What we do, when we have hardware that's going out of use, we have a requirement in policy to see if parachutes want it. And then we do try and sell it, obviously, to keep protecting the public health. But after that, we do look to offer it out. Obviously, there's a cost to us because we have to widen all the data. And we have had some interest from a local company that does repurpose them for schools. So yes, we are looking at all of those options. Perhaps, yeah, Councillor Bensley first then. Thank you, Chair. I'm probably not the only one who gets a bit mind-boggled looking at all the IT jog. And I remember about 40 years ago getting our first Amstrad computer at work and my boss saying, This computer has a whole megabyte of data. We'll never need more than this. But obviously, things have moved on. And looking at priority two, modern ICT infrastructure, one thing I do kind of understand is that major integrated IT systems shed loads of money. Are we confident that we've got the resources in the medium to long term to support this? Ms. Cardy. I think that's very much what the technology strategy is doing, is looking at our results, what we want to achieve realistically in the three years of the technology strategy. So we are balancing all of that. We are only a small council with limited results. As you quite rightly say, IT can be very costly and the innovations that are happening at the moment are so quick that we have to be very pragmatic in what we can deliver and that's what the strategy sets out. Okay. Thank you. I sympathize with Councillor Spencely. I think it was about 1992 maybe. I bought my accounts off an Amstrad 1640 with a green screen. And she'd been previously using a manual ledger and she nearly walked out on me. So that was the-- Councillor Driver. Thank you, Chair. Ms. Cardy, I wonder to what extent AI is within this strategy because although that might be a longer, slightly longer term since you noted this was short to medium term, I suspect that medium term it might well come our way in one form or another. Thank you. Yes, there is that in the strategy. As you rightly say, in the short term there's less of that but the medium term it will start to be used more and this three years is to build those blocks, to have the building blocks ready to really use that AI. We are using AI just very basic things without really, you know, without knowing that we're doing it because many of the IT packages have, you know, the basics of it. So it's about using that strategy to really understand what we could use, that we can use safely and this is just the start of it that we're going to then when we do our [inaudible] strategy after these three years, really begin to build on that capability. I think we all know AI is going to be significant in the future and it's changing so fast. I don't think we know how much it's going to have an impact. Is that okay for you, Councillor Driver? Councillor Siddle. Thank you, Chair. This is where North Essex Council comes in as well because we are a small council and we only have a certain amount of budget and in terms of perhaps future improvements, upgrading software, software improvements, if we are working with, in partnership with the other councils across North Essex, we then have that shared opportunity in terms of investing with them in more expensive software technology, whatever you want to call it and having that shared approach means that we can work together and perhaps something that we couldn't afford on our own, we'd be able to afford with other councils and that's where those partnerships are invaluable and one of the things that North Essex Council is looking at is, you know, the potential around AI for the future and something that can be used across councils. So again, yes, there's money that we need to spend but also we need to look at those partnerships in terms of improving our technology and software and things like that. Councillor Lagan. Thank you, Chair. Couple of points. Mr. Hawley always writes a very good report for us and on technical people so I'd just like that to be noted. AI, obviously when you ask Alexa, it's all AI so we're using it without even knowing it, it worries me because of the advancements but the question that I really have or the enquiries, has this been mapped, the strategy against Costings? Because I know some time ago, it must have been a couple of years ago, Chair, I think we approved a significant sum of money for IT investment. And what I'd be reassured if we know that that investment is still valid, that we're not going to be approached in one year to come for an exceedingly large sum of money again. So basically, can we afford this and have we got the budget for it and has it been costed? Thank you. I think that's Mr. Lucas, is that something you can answer? Thank you, Chair. I was just actually going to take the opportunity at this point, I think when there was a query on the minutes earlier about that investment piece in that role, we said we would bring something back but since then it's been clarified that actually we don't actually need that role anymore and so we're not actually going to be requesting that investment that was originally, well, it was approved but we're not going to be drawing that down anymore. So we won't actually be needing that investment. In terms of future investment, I think Annette is probably a better place than me to provide details around that. But obviously, the strategy has been based on existing resources and at this point in time, we're not anticipating the need for additional resources to support the delivery of that strategy as far as I'm aware. Would you like to comment, Ms. Cardy, on that? No, thank you, Naomi. Yes, that's correct. The very point of this strategy was to look at what we are able to manage within our budget and within our current resources. We were, when I say that lessons were learned in the last three years, I think we did take on some projects that were ambitious and we struggled to deliver. So this three-year strategy is very much within the current results and within the current budget, with actually an aim to save budget and to begin to reduce budget based on renegotiating contracts, doing some things ourselves and putting in place efficiencies with our technology, but just be mindful that with our, as a small authority and with our current results, we are doing that in a very step-changed way so that we know what we can deliver. And alluding to the previous point, I think the leader was right in that work union partnership is very much where we want to go because we're also, we work with Essex Digital Partnership. There's several joint projects that we're doing and have done with them and that means we've got a lot more capacity than just doing it ourselves. But as to the question, this question, overall, this is costed within our current IT budget and resources. Okay. Thank you, I'm reassured. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Stan. Thank you. Just then really proves my point that if we have agreed for a position of X amount of money, which is the point matters arising I said earlier, surely it should, if that position is no longer being filled or that post, it should really be reported back. We're not going to say we want the money back because it stays most probably in the pot, but I certainly think we need a trail because where we are at this council often appointing or asking when you come for more money, saying yes, we're going to do that because you put a report to it and we agree to it. But if we've got no, to me, it should have then come back or should come back to say we are not members for noting, we are no longer using that, but we're going to use it here. And I don't think that's an unreasonable request if that's actually happening. Yeah, it's absolutely right. It should have come back and I think it was the case that because it wasn't appointed that it was an oversight, but certainly it should be, but it was because, yeah, we didn't appoint. Councillor Flugger. So there was a sum of money that was specifically agreed for this post, but I am correct, Chairman, through you to the 151 officer, you just can't fire that money within the department if council's decided that it's for that post exclusively. Yeah, so the original agreement of this committee was to draw it down from the transformation reserve. So, yeah, as I say, since that time, internally it's been decided that the post is no longer required. So in that case, the money would remain in the transformation reserve. As Paul said, you know, we would have, we should have reported that back to the committee, but in terms of the money sort of being available, it will remain in that transformation port where it was originally. Thanks. Sorry, I might have misheard what somebody says. Thank you. Okay. Yes, if it's quick, yeah. It's just popped up, sorry. Exclaimer. It's just popped up on my screen. Sign in now. Does anybody know? Yes, this is, yeah. Miss Cardy, perhaps you could help. Exclaimer, because-- This has caused some consternation. Members haven't been told anything about this. It keeps coming up, Chairman. This is the automatic sorting of your signatures, which I have not done and will not do. Chairman, it would have been lovely if members had been told that this was likely to happen, because you get these messages come up and you don't know, you know, goodness, you might be the subject of a cyber attack. I mean, who would have thought that for this council? No, it's a very good point, and it's well made, and we were not aware. And I'm very much against signing, you know, opening these things up if I don't know anything about it. Yeah, it's a very good point, and some members have expressed displeasure about their, the signature on the outlook being changed to a corporate one. Councillor Civil. Yeah, I understand that, and it was confusing, and there was lack of communication. However, since that point, Miss Cardy has written to every single member and explained the situation and said to members that they can update their signatures if they want to, so therefore if you'd read that email, you'd understand what the disclaimer message was all about. Right. Can we leave it at that then, please, on that? So the recommendation of this item is to the council that the IT strategy is approved. Proposer and seconder, please. Proposed by Councillor Siddle, seconded by Councillor Driver. All in favour? Thank you very much indeed. The next item, item nine, the planning policy working group. Now, this was a, this is going to be a verbal report from Councillor Lagan, who was going to do it last time, but it was poorly. But we're nice to see you back, Councillor Lagan, and we're looking forward to you updating us on the progress of the planning policy working group. Thank you, Chair, and thank you for your inquiry on my ever-improving health, which is getting better by the day, thank you. Yeah, I rise, well, not rise, I'm going to sit down. I'm so used to it with the protocols that are there. Do you want me to stand up? I don't mind. No, you do, please be comfortable. That's very much indeed, so thanks. So I sit to present to members the work of the planning policy working group to date. Basically, I just want to precursor this, that this was published without my foresight, and I appreciate the officers who have been involved in that, making sure that we get a review before we get publication in the future. However, the report is taken with the details that are in there. The planning policy working group has met 24 times since its inception. Members will note that on page 94, there's a list of agenda items and conversation pieces, and that also links into an all-member email that I sent out this week, confirming a request at council for all members to be involved in the work that's being undertaken so far. The report stands on its own. It's pretty self-explanatory. To add to this, what was discussed at the last member working group is actually having more input and involvement of more members following the next meeting of the planning policy working group so that we can actually get actions that are undertaken, what officers are doing, what the timescale is, and so we can be a bit more concise when we start to brief members going forward so we can actually see what work's being undertaken, what work's being done. The listing on page 94 does give that, but I just want to give some reassurance to members that that conversation has happened and has been agreed to by the working group. So, therefore, I submit to the committee recommendation, number two, that the committee receives the contents of this report. Thank you, Chair. -Well, thank you from that list. It looks like we've already gone into it in some detail, but I'm happy that members, if you're happy, Councillor Lagan, to take any questions. Anybody got any -- Councillor Stanford? -Yeah, I'm afraid I'm one of these that isn't entirely happy with this working group. I don't feel there's been a lot of member involvement or update. I raised an issue that's coming to PG&A on Tuesday regarding the reporting of things. I'm coming back to report on things that have been previously reported on. It's important that we do have a thread or an audit trail of things that are happening between this committee and PG&A and everywhere else, really, because if we're not, we're just going to be disjointed, and we're not going to be all working together, which is what I think we should be trying to do. You know, I don't actually know what has been achieved with the LDP so far, review group, planning policy working group. I've not received anything in any committee that says, We have done this. We have done this. We've got a cost of this. This is how much it's cost us so far. These were the targets. This is what we've done within those targets, and it's cost us this without of our budget. What my concerns are is that the LDP, if it goes to full council and too much has been done without member involvement, we all know what happened before. It gets stopped, and I think we've raised this, Chair, more than one occasion. You've been sitting there on other committees, and I'm afraid I don't see that any lessons are being learned at the moment, and that sounds harsh, and please forgive me for being harsh, but there's no point in spending thousands of pounds on the information not being given to all members. I know it's the same old drum. I'm a great believer that all members should be included, the ones that want to be, and I'd like to be updated on what the group has done and what the team are doing, so it's an observation. I don't know if the chairman wants to answer it. -I'm sure he will. -Or the officer, but thank you. -Please bear in mind that this was due to be bought last month, but it was for various reasons. Councillor Lagan, do you want to address that? -I can speak to that. I concur with what Councillor Stamper said, and I believe the leader was nodding because that was a conversation that we had at the last Planning Policy Working Group. Remember that the Planning Policy Working Group has a set of conditions that it has to meet, so its terms of reference are not really delving into that type of detail, but I fully agree that what we need to do is have more of a detailed plan, so we have an action plan, what we've achieved. That's what was asked for at the last meeting, so that we can actually bring that. We're going to finalise that, hopefully, in our conversation in July, and then have a member's briefing where we can actually provide more of that type of information on a regular basis, so we know what milestones we've got. We know what work's been undertaken. We can know the costings. We know that it's really in budget because I think that's what we all want. These are more updates of what's been discussed to learn about how a plan is actually put together, so I concur there's no direct action points out of that, so that's what we're going to be talking about in July. Okay. Well, yeah, so you look like you want to come back on that, Councillor Stapham. Sorry, and, you know, you've met for 20, not you. The group's met 24 times, and there's no outcome or no policies or nothing that's come from there. Sorry, sorry, but I just need to understand. Well, I'll let the lead leader come back because I'm short. So, yeah, it is really important that we keep all members informed on this, and, you know, what we've been doing at the working group is agreeing policies, so the policies are being written at the moment, so this week it was on carbon, and then we've had one on net zero, and we've had one on different things, so those policies are being written, and, you know, it is on budget. It is on time, but I agree what we need to do, and that's what we agreed to do at the working group this week, is in July to formulate that and then have briefings in the summer with all members so that we know where we are and members know where we are because it is really important. One of the things that I've really pressed for, which I really want all members to get involved in and officers have agreed to doing this, is that we revise our design guide because that's one of the crucial things in terms of member input and member shape in the district. -I'm going to let Mr Holmes come in, then Councillor Fluger has indicated. -Thank you, Chairman, yeah, obviously to confirm, obviously, members, picking up the comments around members and more information to be provided, so we met today, actually, as a planning policy board internally with officers, and we're looking, actually setting up those briefings for members. As I've mentioned, they will be coming. In fact, diary dates will be coming out very shortly for those briefings. We do have Anne Autos-Shawland on the meeting this evening if you've got any specific questions around that, but I can give you an assurance that that will be coming very shortly. -I think I'm going to probably guess what Councillor Fluger is going to say. -Yeah, thanks, Chairman. You'll get the chance to know. Look, the last meeting, the planning policy working group on Wednesday, it was a bit difficult, and I've been through this process before, and I was very concerned about some of the things that members were saying, particularly around an action plan. The strategically assessed housing need numbers changed dramatically. That piece of work was actually driven by members, not by officers, but it's been reduced. I'll choose my words carefully, Chairman, but this council did resolve to agree where certain areas of development would take place. Since the strategically assessed housing number changed, officers are now suggesting going to two particular areas, and these are big strategic decisions, and these decisions need to be made by members, and having a members briefing, Councillor Stamp is absolutely right. When we went through this process before, we had certain gateways, and at the end of the day, it's only right, fair and proper to bring back these key decisions to full council to endorse where we're going to go next. We can have a whole range of members briefings, and eventually, Councillor Stamp is absolutely right. You suddenly get to the stage where it's explained through that all the development's going to go in a particular area, and clearly some people might be against that. The other thing, Chairman, that concerned me enormously from Wednesday's meeting was when this was put forward, officers suggested that we could spread the growth around the villages. Well, that's obviously something. Well, Councillor Siddle says no, but I've got my notes from that meeting. Spread it around the villages. Chairman, that would be pepper potting, which you know I've always supported to generate churn in villages, but that would be against the resolution of council because we said that shouldn't happen. So I am very, very concerned, and Councillor Siddle can quite happily speak against this, but I know what happened at the meeting, and I'm sure someone's got a record of it, a recording somewhere of it. And, Chairman, the other issue is costs. I mean, we spent an awful lot of time dealing with the calling for sites document, and then we spent an awful lot of time and money on assessing whether they should be -- whether or not they're sustainable or not. A strategically assessed housing needs number changed, so much of that work wasn't required. There's a question whether or not, if one refers back to the appeal at Latchingdon, whether or not it was done in the right sequence anyway, and I know we will wait for the comment of the inspector on that appeal because there was a clear conflict between policy and development management at that appeal, and Councillor Stamp was there, and I know she'll agree with me over that. So there are lots of things, and I think, Chairman, you know, I think this is such an urgent -- it's such an important thing for the place-shaping of this district, and, you know, politically, whether you like it or not, these big decisions are going to be made in the 12 months before your next elections, and I really do think that we should have a formal document back to full council so that all members can be briefed and then they can decide on the policy now. -Thank you, Councillor De Giorgio. I've got Ms Altos-Shuland. Good afternoon, good evening. -Good, good, good evening, Chair. [inaudible] -Sorry, yeah. Sorry if you could speak up a little bit. -Sorry, can you hear me now? -Yeah, that's better, yeah. [inaudible] -We would not go against that. It's not something that we know that our duty court to cooperate partners wouldn't support, so Essex County Council of Health will not support that object, and it's not something that we're going to, you know, put forward to the council. -In regard to the council, yes, we have been having discussions about that, but at the appropriate time, we need to come to an all-member briefing to discuss it with councillors, and then we will take it to council. But, you know, there's no indication that we've, you know, we've made no decisions yet at all about where we're going to put the growth. That's something that we have... We've got to discuss early in the working room before we can bring it to members. -Councillor Settle, did you want to make a comment? -Yeah, I just want to back up. Mrs. Shortland has just said, you know, last year we chose three options, and those options are still the same options. All we're doing is we're looking at the housing targets and how those relate to those options. In terms of the call for sites, the call for sites will always be there. The call for sites have no effect on planning and should not be taken into account when planning decisions are made. And the fact that we have those call for sites, we are looking at potentially a 15-year plan. Those call for sites will be there for when we do the next plan and the next plan. So they're not going to go away. And so, therefore, in terms of what we're doing now, we're looking at those options and how we use those options. Those options did not include pepper potting. What they included was building in medium-sized villages, and that's where the growth would go, because that's the only way that we could get our plan passed by our partners. So in terms of where we are, we will, yeah, as Anna said, we will inform council whenever it is necessary, and that will be happening in the next few months. But we need to ensure that what we're doing, we're doing it in the right way, and we're doing it through consultation. We're looking at our options. Our options have got to be modelled, which is what's going on at the same time as well as our policies being written. That's all I say. Mr. Dodson, then I can... Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to pick up. I totally agree that the updates, members need to be regularly updated and fully understand the process that's going on around the local development plan. But what I also think it's not helpful for us to speculate and discuss some of the detail in a committee when there's a clear process that is set out, which is that the working group undertakes those discussions and looks at those options, that members are then informed through the all-member briefings to enable them to fully and robustly debate that to then agree policies within council. And then there's a statutory process that's set out around the consultation and the examination in public and all the other work that happens around it. But I just don't think it's useful to have speculative discussions in this meeting when we have a set-out process for doing that. Thank you. Councillor Fittock. Yeah, I mean, I would tend to agree with Councillor Flug on certain points. We do need to be sure exactly what we're going to be able to volume-wise and decide where we're going to put them. But that isn't something that council decided at this point in time. We did a consultation which indicated at that point in time we need X amount of supply over a wide number of years. And it was like 4,550 over 15 years or 20 years, 6,000. But since that time, things have changed. We've granted quite a lot more consents than we had at that point in time. Carbon called phases two and three being part of it, which is circa 500 houses, probably another 200 when you add in other windfall and mining consents. So the numbers have actually diminished since that point in time anyway, plus the standard method indicates that we have now a lower housing target that we did at that point in time. And it all adds up to requiring a lot less than new issues and options document indicated in the first place. So the officer's quite right is that at some point in time we'll have to decide at the council the total amount of land that we want to draw from the hell out. And that will continue to diminish as we grant more and more consents, because obviously the plan starts from 2023, whatever land supply we have at that point in time exists from that point in time. And the more consents we grant between now and adoption, the less land we'll have to draw from the hell out. So it's literally diminishing of every application that we grant approval for. Councillor Fluker. Yeah, thank you, and I'd just like to come back, because I referenced the expression pepper potting, because I understand pepper potting means growth around the villages rather than putting it in strategic allocated sites. So if there's any confusion there, but I think the officer will agree with me that she did say that that was an option. Prior to that, when we were speaking about education, Chairman, and the fact that Essex County Council wouldn't support any growth in the south of the district without a new school, that's what started this discussion. And that was when officers said, well, the development has to go elsewhere. And Chairman, as far from adding weight to this business about call for sites, Chairman, I would refer the leader to the planning appeal in Rectory Lane in Latchingdon, where Mr. Kenman Lane, who many of you will know, the inspector, actually added a huge amount of weight to the fact that the site had been declared by the policy team as sustainable. And I know Councillor Stamp reads these. And Chairman, and if you'll just indulge me for a moment, yes, I did get that message from Miss Cardy about the signatures, but it made no reference whatsoever to the fact that something was likely to pop up on that site. So, but I'm -- Councillor Fluke, with the greatest respect, we are now moving away from the report, which was to hear an update on that working group, which Councillor Lagan has come along to do. We're not debating the local development plan. Chairman, with the greatest respect, perhaps the recommendation is not quite right, because it says the committee receives the content of the report, but obviously one can't receive it unless one discusses it. So I think perhaps it should just be noted without comment. As I said, the scope of the discussion has got a bit wider. I suspect that's what Councillor Lagan was going to say. But Councillor Stamp, you seem fairly urgent to -- No, no, no, I did put my hand up. I waited my turn, obviously. The leader said something about the policies that have been discussed. I won't repeat everything, because it's been recorded. But my concern is if there's too many policies being discussed and not being brought back to members, people can't read loads and loads of policies in one hit. And I think that that's where I'm a bit of a devil in the detail type person. I'd rather have a little and often than big in one fell, you know, sweep, so to speak. Good for you, Councillor Stamp. I didn't mean it in that way, but do you know exactly what I mean? We can't just put a lot of information in front of people and actually not give them the opportunity to debate it. One more. One more. And this is quite important when you deal with pepper potting. And this is in the openness, and I declare I'm an Essex County Councillor. I raised a very serious issue about Essex County Council's policy and how they responded to -- was it the Regulation 14? I can't remember what it was when they consulted on it. And when you look at that in relation to the schools and the strategy, what Essex County Council is looking at smaller community schools, village schools, I raised a very important point saying if you don't support, you need to speak to Malden District Council because you have said you don't support pepper potting in the smaller villages. So are you saying to us at this committee that you are going to start looking at closing village schools? Because we're all going to look at a bigger picture here about transport, everything. There's a huge piece of work going on here. So I do think we need to liaise a little bit more again. And just clarify with Essex County Council on their strategy chair because I think it's really important. We don't want great big schools in one area and put kids on buses. Again, Councillor Stamp, we're getting into the details of the LDP and its policies. That's not what this item is referring to. And Councillor Lagon, did you want to add anything? Yeah, I just wanted to conclude. I think I concur with what Anne and what Paul said. We have an agreed process. The content of the paper is the content of the paper and that's all sitting in front of us. Which we were given last month as well. Yeah, well, I wasn't given this last month. Not this one. OK. So yeah, I'll take that. As what the leader said, we talk about pepper potting, but we're not talking about pepper potting. We're talking about the options that we agreed at council. So I'd advise us as members to do exactly what the officers have said. And we've noted what members want with more detail, more clarity and reports. That's been discussed with Anne. That's been discussed with Richard and the other members of the group. And that's what's going to come forward. And we've got... Yes, Ms Olthoff-Shawland, she's got her hand up again. Yeah, I was just going to say that the meeting and the agendas of the policy working group are on mod.gov. So members can go in and have a look at them. There'll be the papers. And if it's helpful, we could send a list of the agenda round to all members so that they know that it's going to go on to mod.gov. And we have promised to put the emerging evidence base on mod.gov. And I think today, or yesterday, we've got the employment study up. So that's just come in and it's up for mod.gov if members wish to look at it. OK, I think we've been through this quite enough. I mean, it probably won't have escaped many people's notice that we'd like to have a different or a new government in the next month. So for all we know, the MPPF may get torn up and we may be looking at a completely different scenario when having to go through the whole thing again. So, you know, this is a risk. This is a risk we have to take, whether it's a blue or red government. I suspect the housing is going to be high up on the list. So, right, members, so the recommendation is that you receive the report, which I think we've safely done. Everybody in agreement? Agree. Thank you very much. Chairman, with the recommendations made? What recommendations? That you receive the report, that's it. The recommendation is that you receive the report, which we've done. So the discussion we've had for the past 20, 25 minutes, then, is relevant. But it will be taken forward. That's what I'm asking, as long as it won't be noticed. There you go. Yeah. You're right, we've already given you that chance to come up with the examination. Right. OK, thank you. Let's move on. Item 10, appointment of representatives on outside group bodies and working groups. That's for me to present by all account.

1. Oh, look, actually, it's just popped up on my computer as well, exclaimer, asking me to sign now or postpone, Councillor Fluke. And it's dashed annoying, I must say. OK, so this is to appoint to working groups on the Strategy and Resources Committee for the ensuing municipal year. So members, we are going to be asked to nominate representatives to serve on the following working groups aligned to the SNR Committee for the ensuing municipal year. So we are firstly looking for two members for the Mould Museum in the Park Liaison Committee. I'd like to nominate Councillor Layton. Excellent. Is there any other nominations for this riveting position? As it's a riveting position, I'll nominate myself. OK. Are there any other nominations? Congratulations. So that is Councillor Lagan and Lay. The Mould and Citizens and Vice Bureau Liaison, we need three members. I'd like to nominate [inaudible] Excellent. Two more, please. I'd like to nominate Councillor Thompson. OK. I just-- That's the stamp. No, thank you. Probably. Councillor Fittick. Are there any other nominations? Congratulations, Councillor Spentley, Fittick and Thompson. You are on the CAB Bureau Liaison. Working groups. Oh, here we go. Yes, the Car Park Task and Finish Working Group. Four members. Please know the leader and deputy leader of the council and the council's member on the South East Parking Partnership. Joint committee are also members of this working group. I'd like to nominate Councillor Driver. I had my hand up before you, leader. I'm sorry. I'd like to nominate myself for that, please. OK. Do I sit on that as right or not? I will nominate Councillor Darrin. Oh, OK. Thank you. So, we have got four members. We've got Councillor Driver. It's only four more. Stamp. Councillor Lay. And Councillor Lay. Thank you very much indeed. We got those. And the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Officer Working Group, two members. I'd like to nominate Councillor Thompson and myself. Anybody else? I haven't met this year. No? OK. And four members for the Waste Contract Member Working Group. I'd like to nominate myself. Yeah, because we've served on it many, many times. We have, Councillor Spookin. I'd like to nominate myself for that as well. And I'd like to nominate myself as well. Councillor Darrin. Darrin, Siddall, Spooker. Lagan. Contractor for new. Yeah, there's going to be some big work with the Essex Waste Plan on that, so. [ Laughter ] Are you going to do a culture step? Right. Right. Are we happy with those nominations? They're hard fought over. That's why I like it. And some severe twisting of arms, but-- Yes, Tara. Sorry, can you just confirm that the nominations for that last one is the waste group? Councillor Fluker, Siddall, Lagan and myself. Thank you very much. OK. Right. This now brings us to any other business, of which I have none. Do we? No, we got P&C at the end. No, that's P&C. I've got it in P&C, but Tara, help us. Splash Park is appearing under P. There is no other item of business about the group to carry forward capital funding for the galleon replacement. It was a certain-- Ah, right. You are quite correct. Members, you had an update, and this is, as you say, funding for the replacement of the galleon. Who's taking us through that? This is a technicality, so hopefully it won't-- Do you want me to-- Well, I mean, I think for the openness and transparency, we ought to hear the reasons why. Yeah, thank you. And so the purpose of the report is to approve the carry forward of the previously agreed capital budget of £226,000 for the galleon project from the last financial year 2023-24 into this financial year 24-25. It's brought forward as a matter of urgent business because the full list of carry forwards is not due to be considered by this committee until the meeting in July. However, in this occasion, it's required that in order to meet the project timescales of delivery by 18th of October, we would need to place an urgent order. So for that reason, the committee has asked to approve that particular item tonight to enable that to happen. Thank you, Chair. As I said, it's technicality, but I'm sure Councillor Fluke was going to comment. I mean, look, we've got to crack on with this because we've got to spend the money. But I mean, really and truly, I'm staggered that, you know, it's such a large project, there was an oversight on this. It could have easily just been tagged on at a statute annual or even the meeting before. My biggest concern about this, I think the 151 says we've got to spend or allocate the money by October. But the critical thing is, I presume that we've got an oven ready contract after all that's time to supply this. I don't think that's quite the case, is it? I mean, I'm more concerned about-- We need the galleon by 18th of October. Sorry. So yeah, if I may just clarify on that point. So yeah, the project is already in train and planning permission has been sought to over the summer. So the need is to place the order urgently. And then that will enable the works actually to be completed by October. So before the winter season sets in. So yeah, the project has already been agreed and progressed. It's just to enable the-- yeah, the funding to continue to support that delivery time scale. Yeah, if it's outside of the school holidays when it's-- when it's installed, then that's great. But, you know, I'm-- I think everyone is pleased to hear that it's-- I don't know how long it will take, not long. I shouldn't think that one would presume it will be done by the new year. Well, unless we agree this, we're not going to be able to place the order. Chairman, I'll propose we agree it. Thank you very much indeed. That's what we wanted to hear. OK. So, that neatly brings us around to exclusion of the public and press. So I move that under section 100A4 of the Local Government Act 1972, the public be excluded from the meeting for the following items of business on the grounds that they involve the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in part three-- paragraph three of part one of schedule 12A to the act and this satisfies the public interest test. I say move to I have a seconder. Councillor Fluke was quick off the mark there. Right, OK then, Councillor Fluke. I'm sorry if you find me tiresome, Chairman. No, I don't at all. I mean, section 12A of the Local Government Act really, you know, the critical part of that is exempt information and we know there's a very short list of things that are considered to be exempt information. But exempt information is information that is not otherwise available elsewhere. Now, Chairman, in the case of a bankruptcy and in this particular one, there is a public record that shows the council as a debtor. It shows the person's details. These are all available online to view and so I really don't understand why agenda item 13 is being considered in private and confidential under section 12 of the act. The information is available everywhere, Chairman, and to be absolutely honest, Chairman, and I find these things quite abhorrent, Chairman, when people take advantage of the benefits system and then subsequently take advantage of more than district council. You know, I'm a great one at naming and shaming people and I think this is just a form of concealment and I don't know why officers under those circumstances have agreed that this should be held in private and confidential. All of the information is in the public domain. I think somebody's going to help us out, I don't know. Thank you, Chair. So, yeah, the monitoring officer is not here to obviously explain why it's treated as P&C but as far as I'm concerned, although the fact that the person under question has been made bankrupt is publicly available for information, the actual, you know, personal details and, you know, specifics of the case wouldn't be in the public domain. And so for that reason, it is considered appropriate that we would be treating it under private and confidential. Just to clarify on your other point about obviously, the case being one of fraud, if you like, against the council, that's not necessarily the case in these types of cases. There's a number of reasons why people may not have been able to pay a debt to the council. So, the normal routine of these kinds of items is that they are considered, as I say, under the private and confidential and that's been the case I think for a number of years. Chairman, if I just come back, I mean, this is an overpayment, Chairman. Somebody's been paid too much money and they've not explained to the council that they're being overpaid it, Chairman. I mean, I really don't understand what we're talking about. Clearly, this has been run past the monitoring officer and it's his decision. Chairman, for the benefit of the record, and I didn't quite hear the officer say so, but perhaps you could just for the benefit of the tape say that the monitoring officer is confirmed under the circumstances and the information that's in the public domain, it is right and proper to consider this matter under Section 12(a). I can't say specifically in this case that the monitoring officer has confirmed. All I know is that in all similar cases that we reported to this committee that that has been the case that these kind of items have been treated under P&C. I don't know, I think Sue Green's on the line. I don't know if she can confirm whether this specific case was run past the monitoring officer. Ms. Green, Mrs. Green, do you have anything to add? Thank you, Chairman. Yes, I can confirm that easily approach that we have taken. Yes, this could be brought to members in a very general format, but obviously members require to have details of how this situation occurs and the details of the debt and that level of information. As my colleague has rightly explained, it's not in that public domain. So having it in the private confidential session enables members to have that level of detail and enables members to ask questions of officers regarding the state. Right, thank you. I have proposed that we go into private session. Is there a seconder? We have a seconder, Councillor Spencely. [ Inaudible ] Your comment is duly noted. Councillor Stan, very quickly. It is, but it's helpful. Can I suggest that we always then in future refer this conversation to the monitoring officer and get standard guidance going forward on this matter? Good idea. Right, thank you. So it proposed to move into private session, proposed by myself, seconded by Councillor Spencely. All those in favour? Thank you very much. Right, can we confirm that the tape is -- Okay. Thank you. [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ]