Transcript

if not. Yes, I can. I've had to come in on me more bail, but which is annoying, but at least I can hear people, thanks for all that. Thank you. Can I ask that everybody puts themselves on mute? I'm trying to. I'm trying to. I'm not entirely sure how to do it. Have you joined via teams? Yes. I think you're on mute now. Yeah, you're muted. Okay. Okay, I think we can get started. Oh, no, there's still one person that's not on mute. Miss McLaren, can you please mute yourself? Yeah. Thank you very much. So, good evening and welcome to this remote meeting of the licensing committee. My name is Councillor Yamashiani for us, and I am the chair of this committee. Please, could you all switch your microphones to mute unless I call upon you to speak? You don't want to be disturbed by any background noise. When you have finished speaking, please remember to mute your microphone again. If a member of this committee wishes to ask a question, I'll ask that they indicate raising up their hands. Virtually. If a member of this committee loses an internet connection or power, can they please inform myself or the clerk so we can suspend the hearing until connection has been restored? Before business starts, I would like to make clear the procedure for this evening. This is a formal virtual meeting, which is open to the press and public. The purpose of which is to make a decision on the applications. Having considered all evidence presented before us, including written reports, verbal representations and any questions asked and answered. The applicants will be invited to speak first and members will then be invited to ask questions. The object will be invited to speak and then members will be able to ask questions. I will allow up to five minutes for each presentation, but please do not repeat anything that has already been said. When members have heard all evidence, the meeting will close and deliberation will be made elsewhere. I have received apologies of absence from Councillor Burgess or Councillor Burgess only. I will now read out the names of the members of the licensing committee. Please can you confirm that you are present. Councillor Atkinson. Councillor Brown. Yeah. Thank you. Councillor Harding. Present Chair. Good evening. Good evening. Councillor Jackson. Councillor Jackson. Councillor Kessner. Present. Good evening. Present. Thank you, Chair. Good evening. Good evening. Councillor HOWARD. Sorry, I've missed you. I think we had your apologies of absence. Hold on. I'll just add you. Thank you. I just need. You will mute. Just need to declare that I don't represent Sydney, but I do live in the same area as the applicants. I do live in the same area as the application is for. No problem. That is fine. Thank you. I will now read out the names of the officers present at this hearing. Again, could you please confirm that you are present. Rachel Lynn Lawyer. Present Chair. Angela Mullen, State for Communities Officer. Present Chair. And Jasmine Kasun, Committee Officer. Present Chair. Thank you. Moving on to the minutes. Committee members, do you agree the minutes of the meetings held on the 13th and 14th of March and the 4th of April, 2024. Do you go up on the minutes? Thank you very much. Declarations of interest. Are there any declarations that the committee would like to make? No. I have already made my statement. No problem. Councillor HOWARD. Moving on to item three. I will now ask Angela Mullen to please introduce the reports. Thank you, Chair. OK, this hearing is to determine a premises license application made by McEosolots UK Limited for a bingo premises at 53 Sydenham High Street, SE26, 5EY. The premises license application operational standards and local risk assessments are all in the agenda pack. The application was received, processed and served on the responsible authorities on the 18th of January, 2024. Responsible authorities and any other person have the right to comment within the 28 day consultation period. If any objections are received and not withdrawn, we must hold a committee hearing to consider the objections and determine the application. The application for the premises license has been advertised in accordance with the regulations and advert was placed in the South London Press on the 26th of January, 2024. Notices were also prominently displayed at the premises for a period of 28 consecutive days. The last date for receiving representations was the 15th of February. During the consultation period, 79 objections were received from Councillors, the Sydenham Society, members of public and local businesses. You will have all objections in the agenda pack. There were no objections from any responsible authority. The representations were received within the specified consultation period. After considering the representations and evidence heard during the hearing, members must take the steps they consider appropriate to promote the license and objectives. The licensing committee may grant the license or reject the license. If the licensing committee grants the application, it must include mandatory conditions and the default conditions for Bingo. If the committee wish they can exclude a condition that would otherwise be attached as a default condition and/or attach an individual condition. I'd also like to say that two of the objections were not included in the agenda, which was a technical problem at our end because they also had attachments with them. They didn't link to the agenda, so they've been circulating just prior to the meeting, so I apologise for that. That was from Councillor BEST and the Sydenham Society. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Angela, for that. I will now introduce the applicant. Sorry, if that's not how you pronounce your surname. Hello, it's Gerald Greay. Some French from the long time ago. I'm here and I'm representing the applicant. Thank you very much. I will give you five minutes for you to make a representation. That five minutes is also going, if anybody else would like to speak, it will also be included within that five minutes. It will also tie me, and then when you're in your last 30 seconds, I'll give you the heads up. Before my five minutes starts, can I just, through this team's meeting, tell my instructing solicitor that my phone has decided to go on the blink. So if he wants to contact me, it's not going to be possible. There's a parking message. I'm ready whenever you're ready for me. Okay, go for it. I am fully appreciative. There's a substantial body of paperwork in this matter, for which I, one of the same time, apologise and don't apologise. And I say the latter, because there is a number, an unusually large number of serious and thoughtful representations, and I take the view that it's necessary to do them justice. It's necessary to meet their concerns comprehensively, and that's what we've tried to do with this body of material. I'm not going to attempt to summarize it in five minutes. There's no time, but the material on which we rely is, of course, contained in my skeleton argument, and in the witness statements of Amanda Kern and Steve Ambrose and Nigel Davis. Instead of trying to summarize it, I invite you, when you're considering what to do on this application, please, to have a look at my skeleton and those three witness statements. Again, I've no doubt you have already. What I would like to do instead of summarizing is take one aspect of this, but isn't so easy to set out in writing, but it's much easier to express orally. And that concerns the law and section 153 of the act. Now section 153 finds it so mentioned in a number of different places, I'm going to turn to my skeleton argument, where it's set out at page 9 and 10. And if you have that handy, it would be nice if you don't have it handy. I won't soak up time by asking you to fish it out, because I can read the relevant parts now. Section 153 reads, in exercising their functions under this part, a licensing authority shall aim to permit the use of premises for gambling insofar as the authority thinks it a in accordance with any relevant code of practice, be in accordance with any relevant guidance. I'm going to jump to D, D in accordance with your licensing policy statement. It's C that is interesting because the wording is changed, importantly changed in C, C is reasonably consistent with the licensing objectives. And that change of words from in accordance to reasonably consistent underscores a couple of things. First of all, the law is not asking for absolute guarantees. It requires that reasonable measures are put in place to promote the licensing objectives. And so the issue isn't whether it's possible that there might be some vulnerable person harmed or some child entering the premises. That possibility exists in every single application in every single open premises up and down the country. It's not the possibility of there being harmed to individuals, vulnerable people or children. That matters. The issue and what you're looking for is whether all reasonable measures are proposed to promote those two licensing objectives. I'm dealing with those measures. I hope I can be forgiven for saying I read the hundreds of pages that you've been served with, and they're probably the most comprehensive. The most comprehensive addressing of the licensing objectives and promotion of them that I have encountered in my professional career. They are designed in close cooperation with licensing authorities in close cooperation with the gambling commission, who approve those policies and procedures. They're supplemented by 24 conditions, which I asked you to consider. And if you felt it necessary, of course, as you've already been told, there is ample discretion to think about additional conditions. So having looked at that bulk of paper. The next question to ask is, are we just looking at words on paper, or is what is proposed or does what is proposed have practical consequences. And the easy answer is to be found in the evidence before you in the Viche independent observations 270 pages of them. Eight separate premises in August and September last year looked at independently surveyed, and the summary of what is found. 30 seconds, summary is on page 13 and 14, the track record demonstrates that the Viche summaries are an accurate reflection of what's happening. I will, I think, because 30 seconds passes far more quickly than I would wish it to. I will deal with anything that I have left unsaid when I get an opportunity at the end of this case. But I'm sure you have the essence of what my submissions are that here we have an operator who's up and running in 230 or so locations across the country, and there are no problems of the kind that are feared by the representations. Yes, that I'm up to the limit, and I will leave my note, you know, I timed this this afternoon and I thought I was all right, but I've got a tiny little section which can easily form my closing submissions. Thank you very much. Committee members, do you have any questions. Any questions from the committee. Councillor Howard. Thank you, Chair. Mr. Greg, could you tell us how we know that there are no issues in any of these 230 places. I mean, how is that record kept. And where would there be any evidence or information about difficulties, because it seems unlikely that there would never be anything at all within that, you know, the actual operation of the businesses. There must be some issues at certain times. That's absolutely right and I'll come immediately to that but at the top of the tree of my answer is the fact that no premises run by Merkel slots have ever been reviewed. If there were issues that hadn't been resolved, you can take it, there would be a review, which leads me to really what my answer is. Yes, like every set of gambling premises in the country from time to time, there are issues. I think everybody can prevent those. What matters is how they're dealt with. And they are dealt with as the statements that I hope you have read and make clear they are dealt with expeditiously and thoroughly. And with any luck they don't recall one of the principal ways of dealing with them is training. Now the training you would have seen is comprehensive, in this case, I think, if I could, it's contained in ages 336 to 433 of our bundle, an initial six week training and then thereafter, regular training. When an issue occurs, it is Merkel come down and like a ton of bricks and deal with it. And licensing authorities up and down the country have been satisfied with how Merkel are dealing with it, and therefore, there have been no reviews. I hope that's enough of an answer. Thank you very much. I've got a second question, but maybe somebody else would like to go first. Sorry, I was on mute. I said, can I please ask your second question and then I can move on to other committee members. Thank you very briefly, Mr Burrier. Could you tell us why you're asking for a 24 hour license to operate in an area which is not usually in operation all night in terms of this kind of business. It's that feeds on experience what has been found is that there are in every area, even ones that don't to the eye look as though they have any nighttime economy inevitably. There are people, night shift workers, people in whatever nighttime economy there is, that provide the custom over a 24 hour period over the nighttime period for Merkel slots. In the daytime, even during the day to the numbers normally get into double figures. It's a trickle of customers day and night. And Merkel have found that there is a demand for their, for what they have to offer during the night from a few customers, and they would very much like to meet that demand. Certainly, there is no evidence at all. In fact, the evidence is to the country that so doing causes any problems in any of the areas that they operate. It's a quiet modest operation that has a trickle of customers. And have you taken any advice or discussion with local people about this desire that you say exists everywhere. I hope I'm not pitching it quite that high, but yes, there has been consultation. It's in Amanda Kirner statement considerable consultation with the responsible authorities and with the police beforehand. I don't know whether there's been any discussion with any of those who have made representations is often fought untoward for there to be any direct contact with that sort. But that is Merkel's experience as I say up and down the country. I don't say in many instances local consultancy does happen, and this is welcomed. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Anakosi and I believe you've got your hand up, but I know Councillor Anakosi did raise her hand. Thank you, Chair. Just one question in relation to the bundle that you refer to. I just want to ensure that we're all speaking about the same paperwork. So, the bundle that I can see that I've seen, it's in one drive, and it amounts to some 433 pages. Is that correct? The first page of the index ends at 433, but over the page, the index continues, and it goes up page 503. Fine, it's the same. That's fantastic. That's all the question I had. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Harding. Thank you, Chair. Just got a couple of questions, and thank you, Gerald, for the presentation. I think my first question is, I think, a slightly more fundamental one about the nature of the application. To understand its builders are kind of a bingo application for bingo to take place, but I'm trying to understand what that would mean within the building. Is this kind of an application for bingo, as I understand more of a kind of a sociable pastime, or is it kind of an application for slot machines? So, I just wanted to kind of understand what the application touches on in that regard. And then secondly, in regards to the assessment, the reports in the bundle, which is, I think, the risk assessment, or the some page 43, holding me a second. Yeah, the low-clear risk assessment, just wanted to understand a bit about the methodology for that, how that was conducted, was that kind of done as a desperate exercise, or did kind of staff gone onto the streets, because I think there's a couple of things in there, which I think, or at least one thing in there. One service, which I know isn't operational anymore. And I think there's a few references in there to areas outside of Sydney as well. Do you want to understand a bit more about how that study was undertaken and keep? I will ask either Steve Ambrose or Nigel Davis to enter in on that, because they'll be better to field, precisely how that risk assessment was conducted. But there's an aspect of it that I can come in on, and that is that risk assessments, obviously not a test is not an exam, whether you get it right or not. Risk assessments start the process, and invariably, there are matters, and we're grateful for them, that are filled in. It's said by a responsible authority or by a counselor as to hearing, does this, you haven't spotted, or does this, that's gone, that you thought was active, a justice you've just said, counselor. And that, by that process, one has a thorough understanding of what is there, and you will have read, especially in Amanda Kiernan's evidence, that the way Merkaw approaches is when they get a license, they don't sit on their laurels or rest on their laurels and say, well, that's that. There is an ongoing examination of rooting out of emerging problems, so the risk assessment isn't done and dusted the moment it's presented. It's a live instrument that will be added to as time goes on, and Merkaw adapts what they do when emerging problems are noticed. I'll ask which of Steve is it, or Nigel who will best come in Steve you're talking, but muted. I can see your lips moving, sounds like a ventriloquist, I can see your lips moving, but I can't hear. I'm not sure, it's actually Amanda that needs to talk about the Laura. The last I heard Amanda was that she was stuck in the traffic. Can you hear me okay? Yes I can. Yeah, I managed to get out the traffic, thank you very much. Yeah, so my team looks after the local area risk assessments from work here so the majority of the work is the preliminary work is done on the desktop. Using methodology on the desktop using the police crime sites and referring to statements of gambling principles for your local authority and the majority of the work with regards to what's in the local area is done at that point. Then one of my team will visit the venue and the local area and will walk around the local area observing and checking that the content of that Laura is accurate. I will admit there's a lot of content on there so whether they do check every single premise, I will have to say it's possibly not. Every single premise is checked, but they do work around the area looking at vulnerabilities that if there's local things that we need to be wary of with obviously schools and children, bus routes will look at bus routes and what areas they service. And then what we will do is we'll revisit the Lara. Hopefully when the premise opens and we'll talk with local employees, people that we've employed and talk with them about the Lara and update it accordingly. Does, does that answer. I'm starting your question. Thank you answers the second question, but with regards to the first question I'm still trying to understand the balance between Bingo taking place and kind of other gambling activities. The act in many ways is forgive me for the drafters but it could be better drafted, because it doesn't actually specifically talk about the hybrid license, which is of the kind that we're dealing with now. The only way for an adult gaming center can offer Bingo is to apply for a Bingo license. Now, Mercos lots make no secret of the fact that they are by their very name it's Mercos slots. It is an adult gaming center that wants to offer Bingo by way of tablet usage for those that want it. As I said the only way to do so is ask for a Bingo license that can lead some people to think, well, if it's a Bingo license, why all those machines. There is no other route available under the act for doing what we're doing, but it is recognized by guidance and indeed the regulations that deal with ours recognize that you can have premises that operate as an adult gaming center, and also offer Bingo. To say it for the third and the only way we can do it is to ask for the license that we've asked for. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions from committee members. So I can hear there's a bit of feedback and everyone please switch off their mics. Any other feedback from committee members or sorry questions from committee members rather. If not, I will then move on to the objectives so we have a few objectives today. So I will start with Council the best. I will give you five minutes to please make a representation and also understand that you are representing several of your constituents in Sydney Ward. Thank you very much. Can I just draw the committee's attention to my objection, which I know has just been circulated to you. I'd be very grateful if you could open it up so I can just quickly go through and make page references if that would be helpful. Bearing in my I've got five minutes and, obviously, I'm the first speaker so I'm not in a position to withdraw any items that are going to be shared by others. So is that possible chair you could open up what I've submitted please. Yeah, that's fine. I'm not sharing my screen. No, no, not to share your screen but just checking in. So I'm because I want to start on page four, which is addressing the objections under the gambling act if that's possible. Yeah, I mean, feel free to make representations as you see fit. Okay, well, I'll start on page four if that's okay with everyone. And as has been said, the first objection is to prevent gambling being a source of crime and disorder. And what I've tried to set out and I've had conversations with the Metropolitan Police is our local concerns about antisocial behavior. And I've already set out some of those points, which I think a number of residents made, which was about smoking as well as drinking alcohol outside the premises. You know, the whole blocking of pavements, a whole safety issue there. And also, as has been mentioned earlier, the last train to Sydney is not long after midnight. So there is no what I would call a nighttime economy through the night. The two restaurants close at 11 o'clock. And of course, many residents live above the flats above the shops. So it's a very long high street. There's 200 shops, but the residents above have been very, very concerned with noise nuisance. As has been said, you know, there's the bus stop. The whole issue of people coming down from the station, they're very concerned about making sure it's a safe route and they don't want to bump into people. Although appreciate the point to be made, there won't be that many through the night, but we don't know that. Street drinkers have become a magnet for antisocial behavior and we've had many issues with street drinking. Antisocial behavior is quite common. The police are regularly called out and they have taken action. People congregate at Queensport Square, which is just around the corner. Rough sleepers occupy the alleyways and genuinely at the back of the co-op funeral parlor, which is on the corner at 59 Sydney Road. We've got the problem as street-breaking. The whole youth crime and gang problems I've listed on page five, a number of very serious incidents. You know, the last one being knife to death in 2021. So there's a whole picture here of trying to manage the high street to keep it nice and quiet after 11 o'clock. Therefore, we're objecting to a 24/7 license and maybe the committee would wish to consider the timing of that. I've gone on to talk about the issue with other gambling premises. We've got three betting shops further down at 85, 89, 93, but more importantly, we've got an apple bingo. We already have a bingo sent to less than half a mile away, which is at 291 Kirkdale, where bingo can be played during the day and evening. Again, with a closing time of 11 o'clock. So there's plenty of opportunities if people wish to partake in gambling during the day, but not 24/7. I will go on if I may. At the bottom of page six, I set out about children and other vulnerable adults. What I'm really worried about is in our gambling policy, which we've adopted runs from 2024 to 27, is the business of 400 meters. And within 53 Sydenham Road, we've got the Sydenham Centre. Now that houses Ignition Brewery, as well as Sydenham Arts and Montage. Ignition Brewery, a part of brighter Horizons, which provide opportunities for adults with learning disabilities. And indeed, it was a day centre. So it brewery employs people with learning disability and is offering other training courses in the premises above. So we have got this proliferation of very vulnerable adults within a stone's throw of 53 Sydenham Road. Sydenham Arts provide a number of courses, Parkinson's, elderly, very vulnerable people come in. And there's also Montage who are providing children's theatre. So you've got this whole grouping, so at the bottom of page seven now, where I'm saying a 24-hour gaming centre should be discouraged because of the damaging effects on the economic and commercial life to our town centre. 30 seconds left. Thank you very much, Chair. And the whole emphasis here is on mental health, trying to keep our very vulnerable residents active, safe and healthy. And I know the police have been working with Sydenham Arts on their street smart project, which is again to protect very vulnerable adults. And there's no doubt the street drinking, the begging, the antisocial behaviour might seem generic, but it's very personal to our residents, which is why you've got 79 objections to consider. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. Committee members, do you have any questions to ask Councillor BEST? Councillor Ona Casey. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor BEST. Just for some clarity, can you let me know what time the public house is closed on the high road, please? 11 o'clock is the normal closing time, unless they get a temporary events notice, which of course the licensing committee would consider. So, as I say, we genuinely don't have this late night proliferation of residents and other activities. It's quite quiet after, certainly at midnight, as I say, the last train. And what residents like to do is travel safely from the train station down the high street. And of course we have got four CCTV cameras to aid their security and protection. But the genuine concern is having people milling around, adding to the antisocial behaviour that already exists. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions for our committee members? Councillor HARDING. Thanks, Chair. Thanks, Councillor BEST. Just wanted to ask us, in your capacity as a local resident and as a local councillor, do you see any existing? I know that every application has to be taken on its own merits and on its own considerations. But do you see any existing kind of problems around, you know, loitering and begging linked to the existing gambling shops in the area? Well, certainly the fact we've got the three in close proximity. Yes, they are regularly used. And they have, of course, got slot machines. All of them have got, I can't remember if it's in one of the reports, but they've at least, when I visited them, I believe they were half a dozen in each. So there are those opportunities for people who wish to. But it's daytime and evening. They don't open late. I think they only open in the evenings if there's a greyhound racing. It tends, you know, it's a traditional betting zone. And there is use of the slot machines because I've been in and see people playing on them. So in that sense, that service is offered, but it does create a bit of a milling round those three areas. But I have talked to the managers previously and I have no concerns in the sense of the way the businesses are run. It's the 24/7 nature of this application that people do feel so strongly about. As well as obviously having a slot machine when we've already got it. It's that proximity point of keeping people safe. Ignition brewery, for example, close at half past nine. So there is no late night buzz here. Thank you very much. Any other questions from committee members. If not, I will move on to object to one. Object to one. Can you please identify yourself? Object to one. Can you please identify yourself? Hello. I'm Annabelle McLaren from the Sydenham Society. Okay, that's fine. I'll give you five minutes to make sure I can see. Ruth, I will come to you. There's object to two. So you can't hear. There's a lot of feedback going on. Can you please write your comments in the chat, please? Because there's a lot of feedback, so we can't hear you. In the meantime, Annabelle, I will take you. So you have five minutes to make your representation. However, it seems they may be some. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I will give you five minutes to make your representation. Please don't repeat anything. That's already been said. Thank you. Okay. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Thanks. Okay. Um, I am Annabelle McLaren. And until very recently was the chair of the Sydenham Society, which is the local amenity society for se 26, which has approximately 1000 paid up members. Um, so just to say in our 50 years of existence, this licensing application for 53 Sydenham Road has attracted one of the highest levels of objection. Any of us have ever experienced as you will know the papers for this meeting record 79. Well argued objections and two were omitted because they had attachments. So the Sydenham Society is in full support of the London borough of Lewisons planning department's recent refusal of planning consent for the change of use of the ground floor of number 53 Sydenham Road from class E to an adult gaming center. The first reason in the decision notice dated the 5th of April 2024 states that permission is refused because the proposed change of use would result in an over concentration of gaming establishments in the shopping parade, which would have a detrimental impact on the vitality and viability of the primary shopping parade. We have a number of non retail outlets already in this part of Sydney Road. And Councillor best has already listed the three betting shops, which are all very close to each other and all of which have fixed betting gaming terminals. In addition to the three betting shops, we've got the co cop funeral care 59 Sydenham Road. We've got the SAC learning center at 105 Sydenham Road. Moniero solicitors at number 54 Sydenham Road and CKB estate agents at 60 Sydenham Road. So these businesses are all within a very short space and are all very close to number 53. In our view, evidence shows that adult gaming centers can encourage behavior that has a negative effect on individuals, families and communities. And this is one of our great grounds for concern. Number 53 Sydenham Road is in close proximity to a bus stop used by children going to and from local schools. The premises are within close proximity of all the businesses and activities that Councillor best has already mentioned, which cater for vulnerable and frail people. The premises also close to Queen's thought square and also news, both of which have experienced anti social behavior. And this behavior and concern is detailed in a lot of is given a lot of detail in the objections from local retailers, including the proprietor of the house of curtains, which is only two doors away. The Sydenham Society wishes to see retail businesses in Sydenham Road with active shop fronts, which will help make the high street, a community friendly shopping environment. The opening of an adult gaming center will be detrimental to this aspiration. With our local business organization, which is called C3, the society has worked hard to support local shops and bring footfall to the high street. As a result, we have very few empty shops. We understand that there are very narrow grounds on which an application of this type can be refused. However, we would point out that ground three protecting children and other vulnerable persons from being harmed or exploited by gambling is particularly relevant. The core shopping area of Sydenham is situated within a compact network of residential streets, which are full of family housing of all types of 10 years. Gerten, Tansfeld, Newlands Park and homecraft roads are all situated to the south. Mayo, Oldstorp, Dukestorp, Princethorp, Kingstorp, Queenstorp, Bishopstorp and Silverdale are all to the north. They're all packed with families. There are many children and young people in the area. Other McCourt slots locations tend to be in major town centers. The branches in there are branches in both Lewisham and Bromley High Streets, which are 30 seconds left, which are major town centers. So we feel the nature of this area is very different. We would therefore respectfully request that the members of this planning committee consider the recent precedent of Enfield licensing committee, which refused a similar application. And we request that you refuse. Sorry, Annabel, just to correct the chair. It's not planning. It's licensing. Sorry, meant to say licensing. Yup. Wearing too many hats. Thank you very much. Committee members. Do you have any questions to ask? Any questions? Councilor Howard. Good evening, Annabel. Could you tell me if there has been any attempt to make communication with the Sydney Society or people locally that you are aware of? Thank you for the question, Councillor HOWARD. I'm not aware of any, any reaching out by McCourt slots, apart from their applications, both for planning commission and for the licensing application. I haven't been approached for any meetings or discussions and I don't think anybody else locally has been either. I'm sure they would have said. Thank you for that. And is it the position at the moment that the planning for this projected use of a ground floor has been refused? Yup. So just to comment on that, sorry, just to comment on that. And just as Jasmine rightly pointed out, this is a licensing committee, not a planning committee. So regardless of the decision that was made in the planning meeting, we can't consider it. And it will have no bearing on our decision this evening. Apologies, apologies. Thank you. Any other questions from committee members? If not, I will move on. I believe there is another objector. So objector. To object to two, can you please identify yourself with? I haven't been given a number. So I'm happy to be number two. I haven't been told on number two. That's fine. Go for it. I'll give you five minutes and ask, please not to make the same comments that have already been made. I'll try very hard, although I did find it harder here early with the, okay, that's not now. The Gerald has set out really clearly the very permissive legislation that is in place here. But as has been mentioned already, there are precedents where local authorities have found reason to not grant licenses. And I think the point I want to make mainly is that this is this is consideration. This, this license in this place for this community. Quite a lot of what is in the very long report from the KC is generic stuff. In fact, I noticed references to Manchester City Council, which suggests there's a bit of reuse of material, perhaps presented elsewhere. The point about objective one, preventing gambling from being a source of crime or disorder, being associated with crime or disorder or being used to support crime is important as has been made already. And I think it's the specific locations that are important. The area outside the post office, which is directly opposite this premises is where there is very visible all the time. Street homelessness, begging some of the other objectives have talked about seeing drug dealing and so on and so forth. I haven't myself, but that's what other people report. The second, the third object objective about protecting children and other vulnerable persons from being harmed or exploited. Again, it's about the vulnerabilities of this particular community. So the, we know that there is significant level of social housing in this ward. Lucian Holmes, Hexagon Housing, there's a very new development social housing scheme for homeless families and young adults with special needs on Mayo Road, which we're all delighted was opened recently. We've got a real concentration of vulnerable adults living in close vicinity. On Kirkdale, there's the street homelessness project, which is my center point on truth be road at the end of my road. There's a residential care home for learning disabled adults, who are all the time on the high street. That is how they spend their time going up and down the high street. Ignition brewery and non disabled people working there has been already mentioned. There are at least two addiction and recovery services, not very far from these premises. So these are these are really this is this particular community where there are particular concentrations of vulnerability, which really need to be considered and the council must, you know, be, be confident, even notwithstanding the conditions that the proposal has that these vulnerable people will not be harmed or exploited. The slot machines has already been mentioned. We know that slot machines are one of the most, if not the most harmful sort of gambling and likely to be used by these sorts of people. We've noted in the paperwork from work that they're very proud that they don't serve alcohol, but they do serve tea coffee and snacks. Now, if you're hanging out homeless begging or so on on Sydney high street and you can go somewhere warm where there's a friendly welcome and there's tea and coffee and snacks for free if you're a customer. I think that's going to entice people who need to be careful. The other thing I was not I was surprised in the risk assessment, not to see any reference to the problem gambling severity index the P G S I schools, which I note for Lewis and as a whole, we have really significantly high P G S I schools. One in one in seven people have a P G S I score of more than one that indicates a likelihood to harm from gambling. That's 12% higher than the national average, one in 14 have a score of three plus. That's 25% higher than the national average, one in 25 in Lewis and have a P G S I score of eight plus that's 38% higher than the national average score. The second set of statistics from the P G S I database tells us about the percentage of people with those scores who are accessing treatment and I'll just tell you one of those. The P G S I people with the P G S I score of one plus 20.8% of them in Lewis and are accessing treatment. We have about two seconds left. Thank you. That is 40% higher than the national average of 14.8%. You've got a particularly vulnerable community here and the duty of the local authority is to take the particular particularities of the community into account and I'd really like to you to be satisfied that you're going to do your duty. Are the local authorities have managed to do so. Thank you very much. I just wanted to follow up on the point about specific vulnerabilities and the scores around Lewisham and I was wondering if there's any correlation or within that around the particular vulnerabilities about the community you're talking about and the higher the higher risk rate as well. So if there's any evidence that's found that, especially if it relates to Lewisham particularly. You want me to come back. Yeah, it'll be for you to answer. I haven't found a breakdown of the P G S I scores toward level I found the Lewisham ones but obviously we're a Lewisham or to applies to the people in Sydney. I think I'm speaking as a social geographer so this isn't my area of expertise but we have a high level of vulnerability we've got high levels of social housing high levels of rented housing. We've mentioned by name a number of specific institutions residential institutions that house people who are definitely of a higher vulnerability. I think it's completely logical to assume that the people who have higher levels of vulnerability because of socioeconomic vulnerability because of learning disability and so on are highly likely to have higher P G S I scores. I suspect if you were to get in touch with the people who do the P G S I scores they could tell you specifically. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions from committee members to Ruth. No, that's fine. This will be our final group of objectives. So, only got to cancel a burst into objectives, but I believe somebody may have dropped out so I just wanted to check if there any other objectives. If not, I will move on to summaries. So does the applicant briefly want to sum up in a minute please. I'm going to ask for a little just a little more than a minute because you've had three objectives of five minutes each and I've matched only five minutes against that. I know it's not fair. It's not nice. I'm not going to take up a lot of your time. I hope my reputation stands. I'm not sure if it's appropriate time, but I wanted to get it in before. I can only say Gerald Casey as described on the camera. Yeah. My connection went out very briefly. When Councillor HOWARD asked Gerald Casey. Why 24 hours and I missed his answer and I was wondering if I could hear that answer again. From Gerald because I missed that one item during the meeting. Yeah, that's fine. Maybe it doesn't. I'm not sure I can replicate exactly what I said, but it was along these lines that there is just a trickle of customers day and night. There isn't much difference in observation of that trickle between day and night. Merkel's experience is that there is trade to be found at the night at night times and I was in many ways heartened to hear that there is no nighttime economy worthy the name here, because that means that operating overnight shouldn't be a problem. Merkel doesn't attract to its premises nighttime trade. There is whatever there is in an area, some of it enjoys relaxing after their long night times days work in such premises. And it's their commercial decision. They think there is a trade there. The experience is and there's masses of that experience that it simply doesn't cause a problem. There is no evidence at all of such premises as Merkel's causing a problem. I think my answer was something along those lines. Okay, that's fine. Okay, Gerard, you have a minute. I hope please more just five points to make and I'll make them briefly. The importance is perhaps self evident, but it needs to be restated. There are no representations from responsible authorities. Community concerns that have been expressed are planning licensing is very different. There is a planning application in the pipeline and those concerns, I am sure will be made at that planning application. The local concerns number three of five just don't happen masses of evidence to that effect. A high concentration of the vulnerable does not mean there must be a refusal. It means that the measures in place must be reasonable for the protection of that high concentration. And finally, the scheme of the act is this application stage. You are looking to see whether there are reasonable measures in place for the promotion of the licensing objectives. I asked you to find and easily find that that is so Other down the line, if in spite of reasonable measures, there are problems, your powers on a review are much wider than section 53, a one by three expressly section 201 subsection five of the act makes it clear that on a review. You could consider any representation that is lawfully made and representations that are made orally at the review hearing, the act says, in addition to the matters contained in section one five three, and the licensing authority itself can bring a review. So I'm going to finish very quickly with this application stage. You're looking for whether there are reasonable measures. Further down the line, if there are problems in spite of reasonable measures, you have enormous powers on a review. Thank you very much. I'll move on to the objectors. I'll start with Councilor best. Can you please sum up. Sorry, thank you very much. I'm coming back to our own gambling policy and the fact we have premises within 400 meters of 53 Sydney rose that attract very vulnerable residents that attract young people that attract children. So I think this is contrary this application at 53 said I'm going to our own gambling policy that we obviously deliberated and spent considerable time as Council is on. And I genuinely have concerned with 24 seven people living above the shops are genuinely concerned about the noise that may emanate even even if it is quote a trickle. People going in and out. People do live above the premises. People do want to come home safely from the station and don't wish to see people congregating who may be drinking alcohol, as we've had in previous premises, where I take the point on the license renewal. We finally got Zanzibar closed, but it took a long time. So the important thing is to really give you consideration at the start and the whole factor of what's going on in the high street, the anti social behavior. Thank you very much. Thank you. Can we move on to Annabelle, can you please sum up. You're on mute. Yeah, I think our opposition is that the grant of a license for this premises this type of activity would bring in its wake problems that don't currently exist. And I think that with the vulnerable people in the area, bearing those in mind, the license should be refused. Thank you very much. And Ruth, can you please sum up. Yeah, I'd like to give two points. The Casey makes the point that the Merckers lots has never had any trouble. I think we should be. I think the case he said that the independent report was last year. It wasn't last year. It was 2022. I think people might want to look up the Guardian on the 8th of April this year, which reports that Merckers under investigation by the gambling committee for exploitation of a vulnerable customer in Stockport. That isn't proven yet I suspect, but it does happen. And just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it won't happen here. You as licensing authority have to make sure that the license is protecting children and vulnerable adults. Thank you. Thank you very much. And hold on. All right, I'm satisfied that members of this or Rachel. Yeah, I just wanted to make a point in relation to the last object as a comment in relation to any investigation by the gambling commission. Clearly that isn't something that committee can take into consideration. So we wouldn't be appropriate for you to take that representation into consideration. Thank you very much, Rachel. Councilor Brown, do you have a point of order? Yes, apologies, Chair. Is it too late to ask. General clarification on his last answer to me. Okay, I'll ask the question, but very briefly, please. To my best of my knowledge, betting shops make the profit by using fob tays, the machines have been talking about. Is it the same with these kind of premises. Thank you. The short answer is no, betting shops are a different animal altogether, both with regard to the trade that they do. The crowding inside when there's a race or when there's a football match, when there's an event, those just don't happen within an AGC or a Bingo premises with machines. So their trade results from, as I've said now, forgive me if I'm a crack gramophone record from a trickle of customers day at night. That is how the profits are made on all types of machine and on the Bingo offer. They wouldn't be requesting the permission to offer Bingo if customers went there to use it. So it's a very different customer altogether from the betting office and their fob tays, which I'd so much published a few years ago. It's just a different animal. All right, thank you very much. I'm not satisfied that members of this committee have heard and read or information required to make a decision. Before you leave this hearing and proceed to the votes, I need to ensure that every member who will be voting on these items has been present throughout and has had no internet disruptions. So please can each member now confirm that they have been present throughout this item and has heard all evidence. Councillor Brown. Yes, other than already notified, which was rectified by the second answer from a general. Thank you. Thank you very much. Councillor Harding. I have been present and heard all evidence. Thank you. Councillor Howard. Present and no interruptions. Councillor Kesner. Present and no interruptions. Councillor Unacosy. Only present. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Thank you all for attending this hearing. This meeting is now closed. Members will now deliberate in another room, and this decision will be sent out within five working days. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

• Thank you.