Transcript

Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the Housing Homelessness and Fair Work Committee. This meeting is being held in the Dean of Guild Courtroom in the City Chambers High Street in Edinburgh and remotely by Microsoft Teams. It will be filmed for live and subsequent broadcast by the Council's website. The Council is a data controller under the General Data Protection Regulation and Data Protection Act 2018 and we brought broadcast Council meetings to fulfill our public task obligation to enable members of the public to observe the democratic process. Data collected during this webcast will be retained in accordance with the Council's published policy. Generally, the public seating area will not be filmed. However, by entering the meeting room and using the public seating area, you should be aware that you may be recorded and images and sound will be stored as above. Children will not be filmed although sound will be heard. Members are reminded that the cameras are activated by the sound system and that they must switch microphones on when speaking and off when finished speaking. So that's the end of the formal bit of the welcome but let me extend a welcome to Councillor Tim Jones who's joined our committee. So you're very welcome and I understand that Councillor Biagi is going to be joining us but Councillor Hislott is still with us today. So that's good. We've got a number of substitutions. How could I forget Councillor Bennett? Councillor Bennett, you're very, very welcome. I saved the best till last. And we have Councillor Mumford substituting your welcome Councillor Mumford for Councillor Ray. And I think is that... Oh, you see, don it again Councillor Colton is substituting for Councillor KI of course. It's all too complicated for my little brain. So thank you. Jamie, do you want to move us on, please? Thanks. Item 1 is the order of business. Fashion 3 of the meeting papers was circulated and published on Monday the 13th of May. Motions and amendments have been circulated and are available to view online alongside the papers for the meeting. We have a deputation request today from Living Rent, Lock End Branch in relation to item 7.3, 2024, 25 HRA Capital Program and item 9.3, motion by Councillor Dobbins on property acquisitions with existing tents. Also a deputation by Living Rent, Edinburgh in relation to item 8.4, which is the housing Scotland bill. And from the Edinburgh Volley organizations Council, Fenix and the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain, Edinburgh Branch in relation to item 8.3 on the Ukraine Support Service. Our members are happy to hear the deputations. Thank you. Just a reminder from members joining online that the raised hand function should be used to indicate to the convener that you wish to speak. And you as a reminder, the understanding order is 2216. Each item is subject to a 40-minute time limit unless agreed by committee under order of business. The convener has the discretion to allow proceeding to consider new beyond the time limit. Item 2 is declarations of interest. The Council's court of conduct requires members to publicly declare interest in the items being considered out of the meeting. These could be financial or non-financial. Are there any interest to declare? Councillor JOHNSTON. Yes, 8.4. Currently I'm renting from a private landlord. Councillor interjecting. Is that a declaration, Councillor, or a transparency statement? Are you going to a declaration of interest? I suppose just to clarify, if it's a declaration, you would need to recuse yourself in that item. So that's why we have the distinction. Is that the intention? Yes, thank you. That then takes you to deputations. The first deputation is by living rent lock-in branch in relation to item 7.3 and item 9.3. Could I invite Simon Hayden to come forward, please. Good morning, Simon. You're very welcome and you have up to five minutes to make your presentation to committee. Members will have the opportunity to ask you questions. We want to begin your presentation, please. Thank you for going to hear our deputation about that. We think the scheme is very important for you to meet your commitments to the tackle housing and climate emergencies for our community that desperately needs warmer homes and buildings have suffered decades of neglect and for the whole city as a model to be applied in other areas. We can pay for it. It should be doing a lot of good, but right now I'm afraid it's creating more fear than enthusiasm. We are asking you to look at it again, not to scrap it but improve it, to work with our community so it's fair for everyone and nobody is forced from their homes or into poverty. Just to give you an idea of how it's landing on the ground, I'll mention free groups, defects. First as owners of their own flats, if they're blocks a majority council, works are automatically voted through with potentially massive initial estimates, perhaps 20 or 30,000 pounds per owner. This is in a community that was chosen on the basis that it's high on the index of multiple deprivation, so those kinds of sums really terrify people. There is a suggestion people could go into debt to fund them, but I don't know if you're clear the worry that's asking people to take on in a community like ours, or if you're lucky the council might offer to buy your flat and make you a tenant, but for some vastly under the market value that might not even pay off your mortgage. We appreciate your team help people apply for central government grants and final bills in the Westerhales pilot were usually closer to 5,000 pounds, but there's no guarantee that will be the case here and the uncertainty is crippling. One of our members has already spent 10 months being told nobody knows how much her works will cost. She says her life's on hold because she doesn't know if her debts will be 5,000 or 50,000. Another had to prove low income to get help to buy her flat, has spent years failing to get the council to engage on even basic shared repairs, which is now scared and extremely stressed about how she'll fund a massive program imposed on the council's terms. Her word for this is disempowering. A neighbour in her late 70s, pensioner and care of her spouse has no idea where I get the money. These are just examples. Next, a group we feel have hardly been considered private renters in these mixed tenure blocks. What's the reaction of their landlords when faced with huge bills under this scheme? We know in Westerhales, many sold their flats to the council, but the council is willing to make owners its tenants, but not private tenants its tenants, so these tenants will have been evicted. What happened to them next? We don't know. Does the council accept it has a responsibility towards them? Innocent victims, effectively of MTIS. Hopefully, councillors have seen newspaper reports of the situation in ox gangs. In just one building, three families have already received eviction notices in similar circumstances. This includes a single mother whose children need tailored support at their local primary, Moira and Limbo. We think the same scenario could play out many times over in lock and wrestle rig. We can't believe the council intends to be part of forcing tenants from their homes in the middle of a housing emergency, but if that's what happens our community will hold you responsible. Finally, how many households, including council tenants, are missing out on these vital works because they're blocks of majority private and owners take flights and veto them. We think these numbers are substantial too. What can be done to make this scheme one, both yourselves and our community can be proud of, one that actually aligns with the council's climate justice and poverty reduction commitments as your capital programme claims it does. First, communication, but not just communication, active involvement so the citizens are made with us, not for us, and not just the literally superficial questions about what colour our walls will be painted, but the fundamentals of how the scheme is structured and what support we need for it to work. This should have started long ago, of course, but we believe there's still time to fix the problems here and learn the lessons you'll need to make sure other communities don't go through what ours has. And please do get the basics right. Please keep your website up to date. Please make sure private tenants are aware how MTIS affects them. And please try to avoid the flow of constantly changing and contradictory information many members complain of. Second, we believe increased support to reduce the financial burden and uncertainty for flat homes is essential. We hope .4.1.3 of the capital programme regarding targeting of EES ABS funding is acknowledgement to this. We did make some suggestions in our earlier letter to this committee, remove the unfair interest on owners' payment plans, introduce the grant funding element as it Glasgow and Aberdeen do, and set a ceiling on the maximum owners – a maximum owners will be expected to pay in S.I.M.D. areas. We strongly endorse Councillor Parker's amendment to the capital programme including its request to re-examine the scheme of assistance. Third, the Council cannot have any part in the eviction of private tenants in a low-income area in the middle of a housing emergency. You must find a way to allow city tenants continue to attend you if they're allowed to sell to the Council, not impossible, and North Lancia does it, we believe. Again, we urge you all support for Councillor Parker's amendment and to Councillor Dobbins' motion and ask that the eviction's freeze and tenure continuity policy it contains apply in MTS areas. So, in summary, take responsibility for the impacts of this scheme on all members of our community, do it with us, not for us. Support Councillor Parker's amendment and Councillor Dobbins' motion. Thank you again for hearing us today. Thank you, Simon. That was excellent in terms of timing. So, I'll open up now to questions from committee. I certainly have one. Just give you time to think. We've met several times with officers met with living rent and continue to have regular meetings and one of the outcomes of that meeting was that living rent and in particular the Lock End branch would work together with the Council in communication with both tenants, private tenants and council tenants. How, what's arising from that partnership though, intended partnership? So, the issue we are finding is that private tenants at least simply don't know about the scheme and I think we assume that's because letters about it have gone to the landlord, to their landlords. I appreciate that you've held drop ins and so forth but, you know, if a landlord gets a letter, it's up to the landlord whether they share it with the tenants. We've had tenants members saying that they don't hear anything about it. I think you do have to kind of look at all channels of communication. We have gone round as a branch door knocking and we have spoken to people and they don't know anything about it. So, I can't necessarily tell you what is missing but I do think you have to look at it. And yeah, do keep the website up to date if you can. Certainly, we've created our own website in fact that sort of gives the information as we see it but I mean that doesn't seem ideal really. Good point and we'll certainly try to rectify that. In terms of landlords it's quite difficult to know what we can do in forcing them to communicate with their tenants but, well, we can't but, okay, we'll take those points on board and I'm assuming you've raised those with the officers with whom you're working in the area, yeah? I believe so, I suppose I would ask, do you have a mechanism for communicating with tenants per se, can you send a letter address to the tenant? Is there something that Parsey can do that? Thank you. We'll take those suggestions and work on them. So, Councillor Parker. Thank you. Thank you for the deputation. I think it was really good. You said a couple of things and I think you started by saying don't scrap it, but improve it and I think that that's exactly right. You also talked about climate justice which I think is exactly right too because we do need to do these works and we do need to do them quickly but we need to make sure we do it in a way where we're not pushing high debts on to people and we're also not evicting people certainly some very interested in the issue of private tenants. There's another report on the agenda that says about the private homes that are being looked at for this next scheme of mixed tenure works that of all of the private homes 95% of them are owner occupied and 5% of them are private tenants and I just wondered if that figure seemed right to you. Yeah, that figure was a surprise to us because we have put in previous freedom of information requests and we've also examined the landlord register quite laboriously I would have to say. Our freedom of information request was suggested that the percentage of private homes that are rentals would be much closer to 40% so I mean I'm sure that 5% isn't wrong but we don't understand the derivation of it. I could give you the numbers that we got from freedom of view if you want. So we were told by presumably your council offices that there were 243 private rental residences within the scheme area. We do notice that the total number of residents is that you're now quoting is reduced in the dashboard within the report. So the best fear we've come up through is that maybe somehow all these blocks that contain private rentals have fallen out of the scheme either through voting or you've dropped that but we really think we need to know and you need to know to know the success of the scheme because if there were blocks that are dropping out then that's people who are not getting these vital improvements so yeah we're quite confused by the 5% figure and we'd like clarity. Thank you. Thanks Simon. Councillor Hislaw. Yeah, thanks very much for the deputation. I know that owner occupiers that have the opportunity to be bought out from the council have the right to potentially become council tenants but that's not a right that's afforded to private tenants and I'm wondering if you can comment on that if you have any, I suppose assessment of why that might be and also what you might say to critics who might reasonably argue that you know there's 5,000 people waiting on the housing list for council waiting on a council house 1200 of them in inappropriate housing conditions in temporary accommodation and that it might be seen as unfair to then give priority to private tenants whose landlords property has been bought out so if you could kind of give me some of your thoughts on all those that would be really helpful. Thank you. I mean I'll start with perhaps a second bit just to say again the planks of can't have any part in making people homeless or displacing people from their areas during a housing emergency. In terms of the waiting list that's absolutely something that living rent is very cognizant of and you'll know that we also have been pushing you on the voids on you know reopening council houses faster. It's a problem but I don't believe that some of these people may be on the waiting list and these people in private rentals already we I'm concerned that the council doesn't really know the circumstances of people doesn't really seem to have taken responsibility for private tenants even though this is a scheme that's kind of from their point of view being imposed and you know doesn't have any upside for them if they get thrown out apart from the wider I suppose you know climate issues. You're saying what do you think the obstacles were? I mean I know Jackie has given us some sort of technical reasons why there may be difficulties doing this but I believe the primary reason was that you as a committee haven't asked that to be looked at and so are they pleased with a colleague Councillor Dobbins suggestion that it should be and and we do as I think I might have mentioned we do note that North Lannister Council seems to have found a way to do this in at least some circumstances so it's not this sort of completely impossible task but I think there's a sort of political will issue going on here maybe. Thank you. I don't see any further questions so thank you very much for your deputation and as you know we'll consider the report further down the and motion further down the agenda you're welcome to stay and watch but you might prefer of course to watch it online but many thanks. Thank you very much. That takes you to item 3.2. This is a deputation by living around Edinburgh in relation to item 8.4 of the house in Scotland Bill. Could I invite you to keep forward please. Good morning and you're very welcome Ailey and you have up to five minutes to make your case to committee and at the end of that we'll be open to asking questions of you so over to you. Thanks. Good morning everyone thank you to the Committee for allowing me to give this deputation so you'll know that living around has been campaigning for rent controls for the past decade and we welcome that the Scottish Government are serious about implementing them. As tenants we live with the everyday reality of our dysfunctional housing system from the other ever rising cost rents the terrible sale of repair of our homes the lack of energy efficiency or the constant threat of eviction. This reality though is one born out of political choice I'll refrain from a history lesson but over the past 40 years there has been a deliberate and conscious choice to turn what is a fundamental human right of a safe secure warm home into a commodity to be enjoyed in the private market for the rich to profit off. This isn't the polemics these numbers stack up the private rented sector in Scotland has more than doubled in size since 1999 and nationally rents have increased by 50% in the last decade alone. Ultimately this comes at the cost of tenants of local authorities of communities and the wider economy. It is adamant that if we want to see meaningful change not just within housing but to make the economy more efficient and more equitable delivering affordability in the private rented sector through rent controls is fundamental. Now this housing bill isn't perfect and the report highlights some important points about resourcing and statutory requirements placed on councils and this is something that living rent has routinely raised when we have been in conversation with the government that in order for rent controls to work councils must be resourced properly we will hope you will join us in this call. However this report is disappointing and how little consideration is important it has given to the importance of rent controls. Point 4.9 whether report says this may reduce reply. According to the Scottish government's own data the PRS increased by 3,000 units over the course of the rent cap. The idea that rent controls act as a hindrance supply is a routine myth that landlords and developers use to ensure that policy interventions like rent controls and any other measures which would cap and profits aren't implemented. It's probably worthwhile remembering that we did have rent controls they aren't implying the sky policy idea. In fact rent controls are standard in most OECD countries. A report from the social market foundation which was published last month stated that a broad analysis of rent controls in Europe indicates that controls do not hold back the growth of the sector. Places with rent controls do not necessarily have lower rents as a share of income but changes in this ratio are more stable. Countries with rent controls also have had a faster growing private rented sector in the decade to 2022 than countries without rent controls. Again the idea that rent controls reduce supply is fiction not fact. Rent controls aren't about just giving much needed affordability to tenants. Rent controls help with other areas of housing. Again Scott Gove's rent cap and eviction moratoriums are 6% reduction in the number of homelessness presentations from the PRS. This was in a backdrop of an overall increase of homelessness presentations of 10% during that period. Rent controls have the ability to lessen the burden on councils and seeing them implemented should be a priority for Edinburgh Council. Point 4.10 talks about rent controls hindrance investment supply. Why is this report most concerned with developers profit investment flows? Why is there no mention of the object poverty faced in the private rent sector? Why is there no mention of the fact that so many people across the city are choosing rent over childcare over food over bills? Just for clarification house building in the UK remains incredibly profitable. In the past 15 years the profit on an average new bill house has risen from £6,000 to £63,000. The idea that rent controls would be the sole cause of such large profits, the reducing of such large profits and acts as a deterrent to investment is nonsensical. It ignores a much more obvious and larger economic pressures like labour shortages, inflation and ultimately austerity. As we've seen in countries like Germany, the Netherlands, the US, France, Sweden, just to name a few who all have rent controls, house building remains profitable and supply remains increasing. As for rents continuing to rise in Scotland, this is because the rent cap didn't go far enough and something living around it always remains critical of. It did not protect new tendencies nor did it protect joint tenants and we saw landlords use every opportunity to increase their profits. These lessons have been learned and the new housing bill covers new tendencies and joint tenants and we welcome to see the council putting pressure on Scott Gove to ensure that these measures are protected and not watered down by industry lobbyists. Whilst private rented sector tenants don't pay council rents, we are still your constituents and this council should be champion a policy which would materially improve the life of private tenants across the city. There's 0.4, where the ability to make changes to the property would reduce supply. It would be helpful if the officers could provide a reference for that because I'm unsure how tenants painting their flat would reduce supply. Finally, it is worse than that this council has published a report and if read charitably, one has at least weary of rent controls. The very same council that declared a housing emergency only six months ago, a council which has seen rents from 2010 to 2023 rise by an absolutely eye-watering 79.3%. A council who said last week that they are unable to build any more affordable homes due to budget constraints. It seems odd then that this report doesn't welcome the idea of implementing a policy which would bring rents down, reduce homelessness and create some much needed stability for tenants across the city. The reality is tenants can't wait for new homes to be built because it looks like they're not going to be built. We need this council to champion rent controls. We need you to push the government to ensure that these rent controls are robust because we can't wait any longer. Poverty continues to rise. People are choosing to go without food. It's not up for debate. The facts prove that rent controls work so as always, living rent would be welcome to work with both the council and officers on this and thank you for allowing this deputation. Thank you very much, Ailey, and I'll open up then for questions from committee. Councillor Dobbins. Councillor Dobbins and I see you, Councillor Parke. Thank you very much, Ailey, for a very detailed comprehensive and well-presented deputation. I'm just wondering if you'd like to reiterate briefly your top asks of the council very simply so very clear. Yes, so what we need the council is to really be pushing for a robust version of rent controls. There are a lot of problems with the housing bill as presented but we would really like to see the council pushing to ensure that the measures within that rent control are protected so the ability for council to implement a 0% cap, the fact that rent controls cover not only sitting tenants but new tenants as well, so the concept of grandfathering. We need the council to be pushing for increased fines on landlords. Currently, if a landlord reports incorrect information, they only find £1,000, that's less than the average rent in Edinburgh which is a relatively easy absorbed cost by the landlord and so we need penalties to act as a deterrent not as an annoyance to landlords. If you would like, I can send over our rent control policy as well, that goes through in more detail but the main three things are that it covers the full local authority, the ability for 0% caps and the fact that it covers all tenants is not just sitting tenants. If you are going to send that, would it be possible to send it to Jamie here so he can circulate it to the whole committee. Yeah, definitely. We have a number of papers so we actually have our own rent control policy which differs to that of what the Scottish government introduced. We also have a massive scope of research that's been done on rent controls and their effectiveness which I'm also happy to circulate. I'm looking around the room and I'm sure the committee would welcome any information that you can provide and I'm looking at Jamie because he's the officer who deals with that kind of circulation. Councillor Parker. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Ailey. I thought that was great and I agree with everything that you said. I guess just thinking about the context of the housing market in Edinburgh where the private rented sector is very, very high. I wondered if you could say a bit more about how rent controls might support better public control, I guess, in the housing system, why that might be a good thing and I guess also how the bill is possibly an improvement on previous legislation in terms of things like rent pressure zones and the rent cap that you already mentioned and why it's there for better for everyone compared to what's been previous. Thanks. Sure, that's quite a meaty question so I'll do two more best to cover all points. But in terms of better public control, I mean housing is everyone's largest at going cost and what we're seeing now is that it's actually making the rapid rise in rents is actually making it harder for people to buy homes because the first time buyer can't compete with a vital landlord. So if you have rent controls which would stabilize a housing market that means people may be able to afford to buy their own home, you know, it's going to give people stability. Like I was evicted in March and there's the constant threat of either eviction or just a rapid rent increase. We've seen members after lifting the rent cap being faced with 80% rent increases. That is an eviction. Anything above a 50% rent increase acts as eviction. So we need controls not just for like affordability, right? But to keep people in their homes, kids aren't having to move schools. So, you know, that when parents are faced between the choice of, you know, child can rent, it's not a choice, you know? So there is, I guess maybe this isn't specifically Edinburgh, but there's a lot of talk. We've seen that, you know, universal credit is often failing the poorest. And one of the lessons learned from Covid was that there was an uplift in £20 a week. I think it was to universal credit. Landlords then increase rents by £20. So taxpayer money is funding private landlord profit. We need to reduce that. We can reduce things like the benefit bill, which would be better for everyone so we can invest properly in this country. So it's not just about protecting tenants, about thinking comprehensively of the wider economy as a whole. What was the other part of your question, Ben? It's just about why it's better than rent pressure zones. So rent pressure zones were introduced in the 2016 Act. And if anyone was on the council, you know, that they were unworkable, particularly in the way that they were resourcing. And one of the benefits of the new RCA, the rent control areas is that it would cover the whole authority because resourcing that information for rent pressure zones was actually really challenging to do. Whereas the council, because it will have to resource this information, it's a lot easier if it is for the entire local authority. We also have a paper on that if you'd like that, Ben. Thank you. Councillor, his lot. Thank you so much, Comvener, for allowing me a group of other questions. And thanks, Ailey. Perfectly, I think, in a lot of ways, I'm also sure a lot of the frustrations around this report and the way that it's been framed. So I'm a private tenant, so still to be seen, I'm seeking guidance now whether I'm actually going to be allowed to take part in this item, which is a shame if I'm not. I don't think there's a financial conflict of interest, but I am seeking guidance. But as a private tenant, I've been, you know, I'm always aware because of looking to potentially move and looking at the rate of increase over the last, particularly the last year, a couple of years in the private rental sector, particularly when flats work on properties that are coming back on the market. The sort of between tendencies, it's now got to a point where properties in Edinburgh are just in the private rental sector are so unaffordable that it's almost not an option for people in the private rental sector to move. And I'm really concerned about, if I have young people working in my business as to cafes that are in the private rental sector, and, you know, we pay them a really good wage and they are struggling to make ends meet because of the cost. And I just want to worry, there's obviously there are cities that are well known for that like New York. For example, where the impact of increased rents in the private sector with the go on checked has a significant impact on people's well-being and the living conditions. I'm just wondering what impact from your members you can see already with the rate of rise of private rents across the city on the impact of people's living conditions, and where you can see that going, if nothing's done about it. Yeah, this is a really good question. Thank you. Obviously, people have been out of Edinburgh and these are people that have spent their entire lives. It's ripping communities apart, you know, and just across Scotland, if you look at the effects at rising rents and wrapping growth, like increase of short-term let's head in the Highlands Islands, it's worsening in the gala community. Like, having a safe, affordable home is so important for placemaking and it's the most vital tool we have. So, decreasing rents is hugely important, especially when you know, we're up against things like gentrification. From members experience, you know, we've had members just with the lifting the rent cap who've been faced with rent increases of, you know, upwards of 50%. And, you know, it's hospitality workers, so it's having a strain on what is a vital part of Edinburgh's economy, but it's also people who are in well-paid jobs, like things are just extreme and the point that living rent for years has been trying to make is that they don't need to be like this and they weren't, it wasn't like this at one point. You know, prior to the Thatcher government, the PRS in the UK was at 7% and it's now at like 25%. You know, we had rent controls before and we can have them again. So, yeah, I think it just, there's obviously that economic question, but I mean, I speak from this myself, when I was evicted, my rent went up by 150 pounds. I'm now paying 800 pounds a month for a flat shirt in Delaware. I'm very close to having to leave Edinburgh, you know, and my entire life is here. And I think we forget that there's a complete lack of security being a private rented sector tenant. It's like, will I wake up today and be evicted? Will I wake up today and get a rent increase? You know, it's delaying people from wanting to start a family. All of these things are real considerations and the quality of life in the private rented sector is so low and that's why rent controls are needed so people can have some form of stability. Thank you. I don't say, oh, Councillor Flannery. Yeah, thanks very much, Covina. And thanks very much for that deputation. It's both very strong, very heartfelt. What I'd like to find out from you is what you think about a current communication for people. I'm thinking particularly when you go on to the Council website, for example, with regards rent increases, what's permissible, what isn't permissible. And then that of course takes you to the Scottish Government, which has the parameters of what increases can or cannot be done. Do you think there is even more improvement that could be done in that kind of communication to give good information to people? Yeah, definitely. I think one of the problems living rent has done an extensive amount of work on letting tenants know that rent adjudication exists, but there can always be more. And this is where the Council could intervene with something like the landlord registration and get the contact details, you know, depending on GDPR. I'm no expert on that. Of registered landlords in the city and email every private rent detector tenant, things like rent adjudication, something went out through safe deposit Scotland, but there still could be more to be done and particularly around not just going through rent adjudication, but challenging your rights as well. You know, tenants don't have to accept a rent increase of 20% because they can take it through there. And just other things available to private rent detector tenants, you know, about reporting landlords through landlord registration, you know, about going through safe deposit Scotland and making a claim like the Council could be on more in the ball with that, I think, yeah. Thank you. Can I just quickly ask about the role of a shortage of supply, if you like, because it seems to me that that's one of the many things that drives up rent in particularly in Edinburgh, it's the kind of law of supply and demand and what role you regard shortage of supply as having in relation to rents? Yeah, I think the supply issue is a myth, one because housing doesn't operate in like a commodity. It's not perishable. You know, if a house is sold, it's sold to another landlord or a first-time owner, owner, occupier. It doesn't disappear. You know, when landlords talk about supply, they're talking about the supply of private landlordism. There's a lot to be done that we could increase supply without necessarily building new, but a lot of the problems faced in the private rented sector is unaffordability. It's, you know, people are saying in over-cramped houses like mismatch of living conditions. So the fact that we need it, I always get weary about the supply said argument because it's a carte blanche for private developers and landlords just to increase their profits. So if we look at the OECD average, like a lot of this doesn't, it's on a UK basis for statistics, so I apologise because sometimes it just isn't available for Scotland. But supply in the UK, which has one of the worst housing crises across Europe, actually isn't that different to Germany, to Sweden, to France. What is different though is our lack of rent controls and just how much money is going into people being forced to pay for private rents. So those, yeah, there's definitely other things that we could be doing in Edinburgh without necessarily just build, build, build. Many thanks. I don't see any other questions, so it only remains for me to thank you very much for your deputation. And as ever, you're welcome to stay for the duration of the meeting and until we get to the relevant items, but equally you could choose to join us or watch on mine. So many thanks. Okay, texturizing 3.3, which is the deputation in relation to item 8.3 on the Ukraine support service. We have deputation by three organisations. We have Edinburgh vulture organisations, Council, Fenix and the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain. Do you want to all just come up together and we'll take you in order? Thank you, Jamie, and you're very welcome. If I can just, while you're settling yourselves in, say that between the three of you, you have up to 15 minutes. We wanted to, oh, I apologise, we have two, you're very welcome, online participants. So between the five of you, 15 minutes in total. Thank you very much. Who's going to start? Thank you, Canvino, for members who have not met, I'm John Haveluk, Senior Development Officer at EVOC with oversight of the warm Scots welcome. So I spent the last two years supporting the third sector to work across the city, work with Council officers, et cetera, to ensure that we did deliver that warm Scots welcome here in the city. Firstly, thank you for the opportunity to speak to item 8.3 today. I'm not going to take a huge amount of time, because I think it's really important to hear both from a UGB, Edinburgh, who's the Ukrainian Community Centre in the city, as well as Fenix, as both organisations have done a lot of fantastic work. Over the last two years, providing community-based support for the Ukrainian community. However, what I did want to do is take a minute to highlight the role of communities across the city in providing warm Scots welcome to Ukrainian to now call Edinburgh their second home. Across the city, we are exceptionally lucky in a moment many members will recognise it, have a thriving and vibrant third sector located in communities and working to support some of the most vulnerable people. And I remember so as I was preparing for today's deputation, I did think back to two years ago, which, for some of us, probably feels about the lifetime ago. And I remember when the Council put out the call, and the call was the third sector to business, to Council departments to understand who and how and what could respond to support the community that's arriving. There was a vast range of third sector organisations across the city. Alongside communities in the business sector that responded to provide support and readiness for the arrival of Ukrainians into the city. I think it's really important and I appreciate some members may be aware but to look at some of the data. So today we've welcomed 11,500 Ukrainians through Edinburgh Airport and through the welcome hub, which equals about 40 to 45% of the Scotland community that's arrived, of which about 3,000 are living in the city currently. But I think there's two numbers that I think we need to really focus on, particularly within this report but also as we progress. And that's recognised in the 800 Ukrainian still reside in welcome accommodation. So that's hotels and self-catering apartments commissioned by the Scottish Government. Some members may recognise that as being temporary accommodation. And we've still got over 1,000 people in hosts. Now, for members who aren't aware, hosted placements are those that step forward in the 24th of March or shortly thereafter, put up a room or a house. Now at any point, they could step back from this programme and we have a mass homelessness crisis on our hands. And I think it is testament to this council, to let your members round this table today, as well as Council officers that we haven't had a homelessness crisis because I think we've been very empathetic to the demands of the community. As I said, I don't have time to focus on all of the work but I did want to take the opportunity to really focus on two organisations for the particular purpose that they have recently stepped down from the response and actually have worked very closely with the UGB and Phoenix. And that's North Edinburgh Arts and Edinburgh Community Food. So both organisations for those that are aware of North Edinburgh Arts are currently building their new site out in Pilton or in North Edinburgh. They mobilised at the welcome hub and delivered 30,000 hot meals or have delivered 30,000 hot meals alongside Edinburgh Community Food, again recognised in the dignity of food and the dignity of a hot meal to Ukrainians. And actually some of that has contributed to the prevention of homelessness but actually we know there's a lot of evidence about resolving the food supply and access to food and again I think that should be credited. But also volunteer Edinburgh who again many members will be aware of, delivered over 8,000 volunteer hours at Edinburgh Port, again ensuring we deliver that warm Scots welcome, that single point of access and that first point of contact is to come in through one of our welcome hub. And finally I'd like to pay tribute to the role of communities because ultimately as a council and as a city, it's our communities that really put us in the position that we are and also ensure that actually some of our support mechanisms in the city are delivered. Now whether that be Korean Balearnal, South Queens, Edinburgh, the least of the North Edinburgh and I specifically mention those books, I know that's where community groups have established over the last two years. People have welcomed Ukrainians into their communities and only on Saturday I was out in North Edinburgh at the North Edinburgh Festival where the Ukrainian choir and dancers performed on stage alongside cultures that reside in our communities whether it be those from Asia, Africa, across Europe, or equally the communities that are native to a city. As we look into year three of the project and I think this is really important particularly as we progress this, services delivered by organisations such as Phoenix and AUGB will be key as we look to ensure we maintain the good mental health of Ukrainians here in the city and one of my mantras and one of my, I suppose I'm going to call it a burning desire, but one of my pieces of work has actually been looking at how we both have a responsibility to Ukrainians here in Edinburgh but what's our civic responsibility to Ukraine and returning Ukraine's people home if and when the time comes right. And I think mental health is really key to that, it's really important that while Ukrainians have gone through the trauma of displacement and the trauma of conflict back home and I think it's worth noting this is a Ukraine wide conflict, it's not in any specific area, it continues to be relevant and right that we ensure the support practices are in place and equally some of our soft support so through colleagues at AUGB Edinburgh where it's a nationalistic space where someone can go and enjoy the culture and also somewhere that they feel at home. So just to close from an EVOC perspective and on behalf of the wider third sector, we are endorsing this application or this proposal in the paper today for the reasons I've set out but equally we see this as the start of a vast range of work we do with council offices around funding and finally what I will close on is that today's paper if approved will have seen or will see us surpass over a million pound leverage into Edinburgh's third sector and into Edinburgh's communities and that is because EVOC we took a stance that as an organisation we're not co-funded from council, we're co-funded from Scottish government and actually we have then supported third sector organisations to engage with different funders including the council as well as private trust and phone so I think that's a real positive foot for this story but I'd like to hand over to AUGB and then Phoenix thank you. Thank you very much John just to know I've had the pleasure now twice of singing with the Ukrainian choir once in the Osho Hall and it was a wonderful experience so brings back many pleasant memories for us I don't know it was for you about our singing there you go so thank you so we're going to hear about Phoenix next I think and it's Agnieshka, is that right? Oh, Agnieshka, are you going to speak? Can you hear me? Thank you. Yes, okay, I saw Agnieshka, I'm a policy officer at Phoenix and just few words about the organisation setting is very important for the context of the work we've done so we're set up in 2007 to support the Eastern European community in Edinburgh and Scotland and with the aim to address health and qualities, promote integration, support that we're being in and advocate for the human rights and we provide a culturally sensitive psychological support, advice, advocacy and we're around community groups tackling and social isolation and this background and background and providing mental health support to the Polish community gave us the experience, the knowledge to advocate for the needs of the Ukrainian community and in July 2022 we mobilized our resources and recruited our Ukrainian community development worker and to address the immediate issues that we've seen and identified the long-term needs of Arab refugees and create support plan. The Ukrainian community development worker played critical role in supporting over 400 Ukrainians and navigating systems like immigration, welfare, education and health, getting information from the worker we realise that there is a need to unpick more and conducted to research projects to better understand the needs and the challenges impacting the mental health of Ukrainians. Results indicated high risk of anxiety, depression and developing PTSD and the need for mental health support. We also asked respondents what would help their mental health and the answers pointed to formal support like psychological support counselling and community-based solutions like social groups and other activities. So addressing the urgent and targeted need for the support and interventions became evident after the studies we've done and it was crucial for us to address these to prevent the further development of depression, complex PTSD or suicide. We have also been raising awareness of mental health needs for the Ukrainian community and the barriers we face when we try to access public services and we've used our existing channels on the local and national level. Unfortunately we are still very often the only organisation providing mental health support for the Ukrainian community present at any table and through our work we also established working relationship with the British Association of Council and Psychology that was crucial for us to address challenges in recognising qualifications of our volunteers at the moment have taken the lead in initiating discussions and other organizations that are in similar situation providing support for other minorities. So this was important to establish a working relationship and provide more support for the Ukrainian community. I'll have a two-hour manager of mental health services to give you more details and in detail of our work. Good morning everyone, I'm Kiro Zabinska Makintaya, a mental health services manager for Phoenix and I just wanted to say a few words about like numbers, challenges and achievements just to like orient you how we spend the funds that we have been awarded so far. So over the last two years we recruited 20 Ukrainian volunteers, most of them counsellors, therapists and psychologists who came to Scotland as refugees. In 2023 with the support of the one year grant from the Scottish government, Phoenix employed two Ukrainian mental health workers, but started providing sessions and group sessions. In 2024 our volunteers, a gashdalt psychotherapist had had Ukrainian recognised by the BIPCP, the British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy. We closely cooperate with other organizations providing support to displace Ukrainians in the network led and coordinated by evokes. And by May 2024 we delivered like 10 groups, art therapy for families, women's circles, support groups, attended altogether by 150 adults and 200 children. Four of the groups were run on MS Victoria, one at EUGB, two online and three on Phoenix premises. The level of intervention varied, but the overall aim was to ease the impact of the war and forced migration on the participants. Our one-to-one sessions at EUGB and Phoenix reached 120 Ukrainian clients. And summer 2023, two outdoor communitiviting meetings were attended by 150 participants each, and many of them were previously accommodated in MS Victoria and travelled from outside of Edinburgh to maintain contact with friends they met on board like the only contacts that they had in terms of social contacts. Between January and March 2024 we also organised three indoor community gatherings at the Pilmani development project which focus on accessing self-help resources. And as for challenges they at the moment include reaching clients in temporary accommodation, shortening waiting lists and qualification recognition for our volunteers. As for our plans. In response to the need survey, Phoenix is planning to provide short term-oriented interventions and develop medium and long term programmes supporting mental health, community development and integration. We intend to continue the provision of one-to-one and group support in order to address growing inequalities in service provision. We want to continue existing partnerships to reach new client groups such as the teenagers and the elderly. We would like to extend the hours of our part-time employees to ensure the clients as in quicker and can attend more sessions. We also intend to support our other volunteers to gain UK recognised qualifications to ensure the appropriate professional standards are being maintained. I believe we managed to cover the most important aspects of our projects so I'm passing it now by the list of AUGB. Thank you. So it's over to the Association of the Ukrainians in Great Britain AUGB. Who's going to speak? I'll speak first and then I'll hand it over to Tanya. Good morning everyone. I'm the chairman of the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain here in Edinburgh. The Association was set up in 1946 here in Edinburgh and it's been set up to support culture and communities of Ukrainians while they're away from home so that they can speak their own language and just be Ukrainian in a safe environment. In 1947 my dad arrived with 9,000 other Ukrainians who could never go home. So the Association became very much a part of their life and they had to settle in. They had to come to the realism that they could never go home so they wanted their children to know everything about Ukraine and that's what it was there. So we did all the celebrations the commemorations, dance and everything because dancing as it's been mentioned before food are a very big part of the Ukrainian environment. When that dreadful day on the 24th of February 19, 2022 happened. We as an Association had 84 members and we had about 20 people per week engaging with us of maybe we were open twice a month. We had to then take a decision how we were going to respond to what had happened and it was like a landslide to be quite truthful. We didn't think many people would arrive but we were totally proven wrong. Come sort of April May time there were hundreds of people coming in per day of which we were the first point of contact. They came into the airport and then they made their way to us because there was information at the airport and with the help of the city of Edinburgh Council, a voluntary Edinburgh and EVOC we were able to be propped up and actually think of a way we could go forward and we became a society of still having 84 members but on average at that time we were having about a thousand people using our facilities every week and the city of Edinburgh Council realised alone with EVOC and voluntary Edinburgh that we needed support and help and with small funding because we had always been very very self-sufficient but at that time we realised we couldn't do this alone. We had to be collaborative, we had to open our doors to everybody and we got funding to employ our very first member of staff which is this amazing lady that sits beside me and we couldn't have done it without her and we are now a point that we are getting some stability. After two years we have gone through the process of producing information and helping them with housing, helping them with communications, gathering an Alistair from City of Edinburgh Council, their own speed dial if I ever needed any information but we do have to think of its sustainability of our community and of which is mental health with Phoenix and because that is a time bomb if we don't look after it now it really is going to explode. We realised on the 24th of February this year when the second anniversary happened that people realised this is no short-term fix, this is going to be a long-term jog and we have to make sure that sustainability and that the people are looked after. So we have set up the choirs and everything but our biggest achievement to date is our school because our youth are looked after because the one big thing that Ukrainians and unfortunately in my generation the language was lost because our dads could never go home so and our moms were all Scottish but everything else they can't but this time we do have to keep the language. The biggest thing we have to keep is the Ukrainian language because if we don't keep that by default Russia has won and I'm sorry to bring it back to that but they have so we have to look after our youth and with our school they come every Saturday and they have a full program and going back to the ship they won't meet their friends but before I go on to I'll hand over to Tanya and she'll tell you about the program of events that we help support. Morning everyone two years ago lives of thousands of Ukrainian children they were private change their homes playgrounds and school they were devastated by bumping and actually that children left cut off from the health care and education. Our children especially Ukrainian children now they grow up too fast and looking into their eyes you can understand everything they came through. Being a displaced person is hard but being a displaced child is even harder. At AUGB we understand all the challenges children are facing and with everything we can to support as much as we can families, children, young people, single adults. Working with partners we have developed a wide range of activities for children and young people dancing, singing, art, football, board games, excursion, different celebrations all these activities allow children to develop their talents and skills. Last year the Kids Choir harmony together with the dance group Flowers of Ukraine were created. About 50 children participate weekly in all of these activities often taking part in different performances and concerts. Just last week we celebrated the Kids Choir's anniversary with a huge concert and last Saturday all these groups participated in North Edinburgh Community Festival showcasing Ukrainian culture. All children and parents and I'm talking on behalf of all of them they are grateful for all the amazing opportunities as it gives them a sense of community and the sense of home. They are united and they are united by music dance and creative arts. We also focused on preserving Ukrainian culture and heritage and as Hannah mentioned we started the Saturday Ukrainian school which we called Prosto school because everything is very simple there. Our school opened its doors for more than 40 children and every Saturday they are there to learn Ukrainian, to keep Ukrainian language alive here in Scotland and just remember who they are. The aim of the school is to promote and improve Ukrainian language skills to Ukrainian children and I'm really pleased to say that we were able to create safe space and trusting Ukrainian speaking environment for all these children. At the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain we care about children's education, development, mental health and well-being and it's really important to continue providing and supporting all of them. All these activities they allow children to overcome the impact of the ongoing work. We believe that people are at the heart of every community and our support and all the activities provision will continue to make a difference in their lives. Together we can help them to build better future and find themselves here in Edinburgh. With your help and your generous support we can bring life and joy and I'm always really grateful for the chance to speak to all of you as I find it as an opportunity to say a huge thank you from all the people, all the Ukrainians who are here in Edinburgh but also all the Ukrainians who are back in Ukraine for your generous support and help. Edinburgh became our harbor of a safe space and we cannot thank you enough and I'm sure that all our adults, young people and children will make all their best to make a positive contribution to the Edinburgh. Thank you. Thank you very much and I'm looking around the room. I see Councillor Jones hand first and then I'll move on to Councillor Bennett. Thank you, Kavita and thank you so much for your deputation and a long long time ago more years than I care to remember I did my I did one year of Russian at secondary school and I had a pen pal from Ukraine just south of Kiev Czakaski I think with a little vision was called so I'm really interested in this idea that you're saying that you need to preserve the Ukrainian language. I wrote in English he wrote in Russian in what ways do the Ukrainians feel that Russian actually is an opposed language on them or do they just are they comfortable using both Russian and Ukraine. Thank you for your question. Unfortunately Ukrainian language were banned in Ukraine for thousands of years and that's our history. As you know, yes, that's the reality. Lots of people in Ukraine they speak Russian they know Russian but now the war is just the war against our history against our language and against all of us and all the Ukrainians in Ukraine and the broad they are trying to save their language that is why we are trying to get rid of everything related to Russia especially its language that is why I'm always asking everyone please speak Ukrainian to if you meet Ukrainians not Russian. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Bennett. Thank you Comvener and thank you so much everybody for the very powerful deputations. My question is going back to John and it's very worrying to hear the hosts could pull out of hosting at any moment. You did give us a figure and I missed it I'm sorry could you tell us again the number of people from Ukraine that are living with hosts in Edinburgh and are we aware of hosts that are struggling and are they getting any support? Thank you. Yeah definitely thank you Councillor Bennett for your questions it's over a thousand people in hosted but I think it's worth recognising the commitment of hosts because often we say hosts can pull out almost as if it's something we can blame them for. Now they stepped up two years ago and they were they're on a two-year guarantee as a six-month guarantee from the UK government funded at 350 pound per month. Now no one could have imagined we would be sat here two years later or just over two years later with a thousand people in Edinburgh alone. Now your time's out across the UK and it's a horrific number but UK government have put up the hosted payment to 500 pounds. Now we know what the cost of living and in other bills energy etc. etc. That's not touching the side for a lot of hosts but equally a lot of hosts. I say and look actually I've done my bit I need to withdraw it you know I need to have my house back I need to room back you know I've got the kids coming back from university so I think through other proposals that come to committee in terms of housing and other things we've got to be weary we could have a thousand people on homelessness less potentially and it's something that at evox sorry we're pushing all the time the Scottish government particularly around further investment into housing and housing supply for Ukrainians we're also looking at encouraging the Scottish government not to withdraw from welcome accommodation and to loosen some of the welcome accommodation policies particularly around sort of what we call the entry to welcome accommodation but actually the welcome accommodation estate should be a safety net for those in hosted placements we should not have Ukrainians on the street and I think that's what sets Scotland up apart from the rest of the UK where we do have that safety net whereas in other parts of the UK with Wales being the exception they would effectively have to present to a local office within local council areas and it's a substantial number in it in other parts of the UK. Thank you. I see Councillor Mumford and Councillor Bruce wanting to come in can I just quickly ask looking ahead what you think the main challenge might be in the coming year so what is it and that might I don't know if that's going to be you Hannah or Tanya but the biggest challenge is mental health that that's a huge challenge but also the housing because if people don't have a stable house everything else false fits they set up their their life in Edinburgh or in the other council areas and if that is changed and they're moved away they then have to think about new employment, new schools and everything like that so technically they are actually being displaced a second and possibly a third time but on an EUGB front it is just always trying to look at how we can fund everything that we're doing going from the very small backstreet members club to where we are just now that maybe Tanya has other. Yeah I believe the housing that's the question number one because people have already been displaced and there are a lot of Ukrainians who have lost everything back in Ukraine and there is no whole and there is actually no family because they've lost their loved ones back in Ukraine and that is why like the stuff that Fanix doing for all of us giving the psychological support is really important and actually I could definitely say that they found the community here and we need to make everything possible to keep that community alive for them. Thank you. It's very useful information in relation to the grant that we give. Councillor Mumford. Thank you, Kavina. Thanks to the deputations. I think my question links actually to yours about the challenges and it was for Fanix and I wondered if there were plans to redo the survey that he did in 2022 about the challenges being faced because obviously that was a really useful piece of work and it's fed into this funding but I know that half the people that responded then were on Emma's Victoria for example so the situations will have changed. I just wondered if there were any plans to sort of redo that piece of work in 2024. Thanks. Thank you. Who wants to come in on that? I'll try to answer. Oh sorry. Thank you very much. She had to leave for emergency apologies but there's definitely something we'll be looking into. It's sometimes very hard then to plan if a lot of our activities are funded and permitted so there will be something possibly depending on how we're going to proceed with anything that's possible for this project. At the moment we are also focusing on having more volunteers having the qualifications recognized as there's been a massive challenge just like it was for our Polish councilor so it's a big piece of work. It seems like it's it's like a quick solution but it's really not so that's why it's so important I think to make it over that we are trying to work very closely and hard with the British Association of Counseling and Psychology to make these regulations and also less British centric and there are there are ways of maybe filling the gaps in the qualifications and experience and that's what we're working hard to do because otherwise we will not be able to keep up with the demand. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Bruce. Thank you. Thank you, confusion and thank you for your deputation. Excuse me. It's great that Edinburgh's twinned with Keve you know it's a strong bonding between between the two cities but I'm just thinking in terms of the future if the escalation of the war continues and does that mean that we we might see more Ukrainians displaced and obviously more Ukrainians coming here again putting more pressure do you see that as a possibility that more Ukrainians coming here? Thank you, Councillor Bruce for the question. I think it's worth highlighting as well in terms of routes to the UK a large number of them have now been closed so we saw the urgent closure of visa programs by the UK government on the 19th of February last year so this year which comes as a surprise to all partners so in terms of the family scheme in terms of the super sponsored scheme manual that closed a lot earlier in terms of homes for Ukraine there is now not technically not a route for Ukrainians to come to the UK however what we do see is potentially sponsorships still to be continued by British nationals Irish nationals and also Ukrainian to have over five years residency in the United Kingdom so in terms of predicting the future I think that's difficult to say and I had a conversation with the Ukrainian condensulate probably about fortnight three weeks ago and and he's very hesitant to predict the future because it is such an uncertain time in Ukraine but what is certain from a UK perspective is we will not see a large number of Ukrainians coming to Edinburgh unless there is a loosening of visa restrictions and and that's unfortunately something that's been put in place at a higher level but that is effectively going to be playing to policy developments within the next couple of months thank you John oh councillor Dovin thank you I really appreciate all the deputations very moving and I'd just like to go back to the thousand people I don't know if you can break that down into how does that reflect in terms of family groups and in particular how many children would you say are in that one thousand thank you thanks councillor Dov unfortunately I've not got the data in front of me but I can you know council officers speaking to the report later on who will have access to that data or we can furnish after committee and looking up at Gav to see whether that's something you will be able to cover when we come yeah yeah okay that's helpful thank you sorry to disturb you thank you so much any further questions to the deputations with that can I extend a grateful thanks to you for coming along and telling us about the many activities that you've been able to engage in all the supports you've been able to offer to groups and individuals and we'll consider the report when it comes and you're very welcome to stay and observe but you may prefer to if you want to follow proceedings online that's another option so many thanks to all of you yet again thank you um committee it seems like kind of prudent time to take a comfort break um I'm looking at the clock above uh councillor Fullerton and Dovin's head and it's telling me it's between court it should we come back at half past 11 on that clock over there so in other words that gives us about 12 minutes thank you okay uh takes you on to 18 4.1 which is the minute of 27th of February 2024 that's a matter for approval is a correct record agreed thank you item 5.1 is the work program which is a matter for noting thank you any questions about the work program I don't see any so noted yeah noted speak to me thank you item 5.2 is the rolling actions log committee's asked to close the following actions action 11 part 3 action 12 17 19 24 part 4 and 25 part 3 and to otherwise not the remaining outstanding actions thank you councillor parka thank you i'm afraid i have a few but shall i just crack on crack on number eight on the retrofitting strategy so um the people's strategy was approved in march and the request was that once the people's strategy had been approved we would get a briefing note specifically on retrofitting and workforce challenges related to that so i'm just checking that that is is being actioned because the update just says the people's strategy has been approved but i would now like the briefing note and now like the briefing note so thank you i can see people nodding so i'll just assume that that's being done can we just formally confirm that yeah thank you three number 12 is recommended for closure but the request is for a report on compulsory purchase orders um and i think that we are expecting that report in august but i just wanted to check that that is happening and therefore we won't close that one thank you yeah that looks short that looks right to me confident so you mean councillor parka's argument that it shouldn't be closed it's correct yeah if it's if it's not coming if it's not coming so late in the year then we shouldn't close it until the report's been received yeah thank you that's helpful thank you uh i have a question on number 22 which is about increasing affordable homes delivery um and i'm just wondering if that because there isn't an update um attached to it and obviously this was quite time sensitive in that it's about engagement with the scottish government around um refinancing in the hra and i'm just wondering if that is where we're at with that in terms of those conversations and i guess what will ultimately come back to committee members in advance the budget okay sorry Derek yeah sorry it can be in a thanks councillor parka yeah we are in discussions with a scottish government put each other in a potential review of that so that's about what it's ongoing and we'll report back at um the point where there's uh i guess a story to tell committee so yeah it's ongoing uh sorry Paul i think it's also germane to the later item on the agenda today so maybe actually we can cover some of that off during that discussion actually good and then final one um it's just number 24 on the housing emergency declaration i just wondered if you could say more about plans for the summit um because the update says we're considering it or we're going to be doing it but that's all we get so can you tell us more thanks yeah thanks again yeah thanks uh councillor parka there have been a number of meetings held um some have been called summits um some are in the detail of the action plans for home a colleague jell is held a number in terms of homelessness and in map in that system um i think it's more likely to be summits the range of different stakeholders and for different reasons it won't involve so it's just that that trying to work out exactly who to invite to what we're at now but we've got a good idea i mean there's there's dozens of people uh in organizations when threats we just need to uh try and find something either big enough for them or can i stratify it a bit so it makes more sense tiny follow up could you circulate a proposal at some point just whenever it makes sense thanks thanks and i've got a clarification from jamey from committee services about that point 12 um jamey yes thanks kimina um apologies that seems to be a mistake i think the recommendation for closure should have been for um action 13 below um and we're not recommending 12 for closure so we'll leave that open and if members are happy to close 13 based on that action uh that clarification thank you and thank you um for councillor parker's eagle eye on that thank you any further um questions councillor flannery uh thanks kimina yes it's just on point uh 27 i know this is a very very large piece of work that our team are working on but it would be quite useful maybe to have the timelines and again particularly i think as we've requested before where they tie in or where some aspects tie into the housing emergency action plan as well largely so that we're not duplicating work thank you who's going to respond to that we we should yeah my apologies councillor really these items should always have an expected completion um date on them we'll take that away i mean you're right it there's a series of actions together there Derek might want to comment i'm not sure but there's a huge amount of work ongoing so actually we might just take that away and have a look at it and recirculate it thank you um that would be helpful oh Derek yes sorry i'm just jumping about papers here but um the action against 27 um relates to briefing that's been circulated with further details about the organisation review i've understood that it's been done and circulated so um i think it's perhaps the um the completion dates that haven't been updated there but i believe that has been circulated apologies it's um i think it's just in complete record yeah if i could just very quickly come back it's just so that we don't duplicate ideas and where it does actually fit with the housing emergency particularly it's just really useful to know where we've got those things that we can take off basically thank you uh so uh we're suggesting that that action could be closed yep looking around the room don't see anyone making a case of a country so yep sounds like it can be okay that then takes you to item 6.1 which is the best it's built in thank you any questions or comments Councillor Dobbins thank you yes um a couple a couple of questions first in void properties talking about the average average turnaround time i'm curious whether uh are interested in the do you use exist is this in getting these properties back do they go through the sort of standard repair process and repair contractors or do you have separate contractors engaged in focusing this and second part to this question would be what what are the barriers to accelerating that time that as a as committee members potentially we could help with that's the first question pattern that's the first question um as you're speaking um i see Sarah bones is coming down because she's best place to respond so yeah do you want to a fire ahead with your second one or treat them separately it's a separate subject so okay well let's let's do with the first one first thank you Councillor Dobbins um the answer to your first part your first question is yes they go through normal repairs process so there's a lightable standard that sets out the works that need to be completed before a property can be returned to be light so all properties have to meet that standard before we can can light them and we use a mix of both external contractors and some in-house staff to do those works thank you do you want to use sorry i think it was a couple of times it was about potential for acceleration and what the barrier is yeah okay apologies um capacity is is is a challenge for us surely both in terms of being able to secure the capacity we need from external contractors and also um obviously our internal resource works both in voice properties but also unresponsive repairs so just trying to prioritize those resources and balance them across those various demands and we are constantly engaging with our contractors to try to um scale up and you know push for as much capacity as we as we can that we can commit to the to the voids work and also constantly sort of revisiting recruitment as well we've just undertaken some recruitment in a me primarily for the dampness team but actually we've had quite a good response to that so we're hoping we might be able to secure some additional capacity for some of the vacancies that we have in the in-house team as well but principally I suppose capacity and also the scale of the works and often the complexity of the I suppose the process other other issues that need to be resolved that are beyond just a peer so utilities for example is a is a common challenge for us i can say you want to come back in can i say she wants to say a little bit more about the challenges with utilities because that does hold up a lot of voids um just to complement your question yeah there's a whole range of issues um quite often we find that meters need to be replaced or they are or they're damaged I suppose the most significant um sort of time-consuming issues is just cleaving debt off meters and making sure that we've got utility a supply into property so that works can can be carried out so it does tend to be a bit of a blocker in most voids to varying degrees I would say in terms of working with utility companies quite often it's difficult getting our our response and especially if we need somebody from the utility company to come out and do some work to the the meters that can be um i can add significant time to turning the property around before we can get those works resolved so we are put in additional capacity in we've employed some additional housing assistance to try and work with utilities to address those issues but it's definitely one of the the big barriers for us truly in improving our turn around on voids thank you Sarah and I want I know you want to come back in I have to say that um the council needed it right to the energy companies to encourage them to speed up the whole process just to add that we're putting as much pressure as we can on particularly energy companies to I mean we met a bit of a brick wall there nevertheless it's a continuing issue and apologies and thank you council the job and do continue I won't come back in thanks I do have another question if that's okay on accessible housing really appreciate the work that's been done there around allocation policy I guess for accessible wheelchair people with mobility issues and a few cases have started to come across my desk recently where parents or single mothers with particular children with particular autistic conditions are saying that they would benefit greatly and the child would benefit greatly if they had direct access to garden space which of course is is is ground floor I'm just wondering if that could be factored into the ongoing thoughts around um the sounding board Lisa do you want yeah absolutely happy to be probably good to touch piece with you directly just round some of that and we can feed that in and happy to look at that as we move forward I'm sure in common with the rest of us I've had similar cases coming to me Councillor Mumford can I just check did I see you Councillor Parker after thank you Councillor Mumford Thanks Klevina and I had a question about the the survey that's being done the the LHS consultation and I wondered how that will dovetail or not with the budget consultations that are happening obviously housing is likely to come out very strongly in the budget consultation and so I suppose wondering a how they could inform each other and make sure we're not losing information but also how we make sure that people being surveyed aren't confused about the council asking for their views on these sort of strategic priorities in two different places thanks thank you Lisa do you want to comment on that yes thanks so much for the question and yeah the the survey went live just I think just a little week ago and we've actually had about 70 responses so far so that's a positive start and I think what I would say about the local housing strategy there's going to be lots of different types of engagement this is just an early early engagement piece just to kind of yeah I suppose to to raise awareness but also just get some initial views there then will be specific deep dives looking at particular areas as as we move forward and I think it's it is important any information that we get back should be really used across across the council to inform as much as possible so we'll be keen to keep committee updated on that as well and I suppose certainly from from my side of work I do obviously do the HRA budget piece so that's really close to close to to our workload but also happy to share that corporately as well so yeah I think there's there's definitely an importance of sharing the information and the feedback that we get as widely as possible as we move forward because this will be an evolving and move in piece of work so thank you for those comments and happy to type those on board as we move forward thank you is that all right with you Councillor Mumford thank you Councillor Parker thank you I've got two questions if that's okay the first is on temporary accommodation for asylum seekers and the second is on the housing emergency action plan so I'll start with asylum seekers so I'm just wondering the oversight meetings which take place with the different groups I'm wondering if there is representation from asylum seekers in those meetings or is there a way for asylum seekers to anonymously raise issues as part of that piece of work Derek is that one for you yeah thanks thanks for a question no I don't believe there are any asylum seeker as any asylum seeker representation and these meetings are organised we retain these that are organised by the Home Office and your group principally to bring us together to talk about the issues so I think through the local networks we have in the city with evork and other sub-sector organisations we have a good grasp of the issues that asylum seekers are facing when they come to the city all those issues they're bringing with them as well as what they face in the city but they aren't those meetings specifically nor there isn't any any representation further question can I follow up on that one instead I guess the question is is there a reason why that wouldn't be appropriate thank you Councillor Pater these meetings are to be fair these are administrative meetings these are here are the arrangements we're making mares group as you know asylum decisions asylum laws reserved for Westminster government so mares group managed that on behalf of the Home Office so these are meetings where to be fair a mares group they work really well with us they tell us what the plans are ask if we have any objections how we would want it to work locally so I think it's fair to say that meeting just might not be the place for asylum representations to be made there are other avenues to do that I think that's pulley for you I suppose the issue is about how you then capture yeah is that what you're going to say yeah yeah please yeah perhaps just coming back I think that the point I made a bit of local connections we have so the local meetings we have we understand those issues we can take into that meeting in terms of the issues that we face so there is a there is a feed-in through I guess ourselves in EVOC it says 20 these meetings but no specific asylum representation yeah for the city but it sounds so the route would be through EVOC yeah and the Scottish Refugee Council would be a big part of that discussion at any time as well yeah okay thank you thank you that was informative my other question is about housing emergency action plan and particularly the notes on support for private tenants so a note that the update says that over the next eight weeks officers will assess the supports in place currently and consider projected demand in terms of financial support and I guess other things for private tenants I guess I'm wondering why eight weeks consideration period and I guess also do we not already have some of this information so for example at budget time we know that there's a 1.9 million pound gap in support for the Scottish welfare fund and I'm sure that's probably growing as we speak so I guess what what additional information are we expecting to find over these eight weeks Nicky do you want to come on that thanks very much Councillor Parker and we've also got a report later on the committee where Sheila Haig my colleague from transactions will be here as well so she can talk to some of the information that they're looking at collect as well one of the things that we wanted to do over the next eight weeks is assess or discretionary housing payments may be available for people over the year we're also looking at the number of people and we see the DHP we're in the private any sector at the moment that includes people we're in private sector at least on properties as well so it's quite a complicated piece of work and what we're trying to do with the analysis of that is project future demand which is challenge and so we wanted to give ourselves eight weeks to do that so we can make sure that we've got the information right that it's cleansed and that we can project the demand for it as well so eight weeks was the the time we are giving ourselves of course if we can do it quicker and if that information comes about quicker and we can cleanse it and make sure we've got the right information to make the right projections we'll do it quicker we want it to give ourselves some time to make sure we got it right thank you thank you and i hope that satisfies you in terms of any follow-up questions and i don't see any further questions can we move on so that takes you to section seven executive decisions item 7.1 is a report by the executive police on the one left behind asm provision can we now can i make a point of order just now just no time like the president just to say that i have sought advice from officers and that i will be making a declaration of interest on item 8.4 and removing myself from the discussion around the housing bill because i'm a private tenant thank you councillor his lot will will there be a substitute how how's it yeah hopes on good time time thanks someone thank you very much thank you so we note that Jamie thanks noted um i'll hand over to you and williamson thank you thank you and i'm nothing to add to the report i have Philip Richie online as well in case there's any questions on the detail thank you any questions councillor jones councillor bennette thank you convina um i just want to refer to 3.2 it there's a reference to post school negative destination what is a post school negative destination the very simple answer is anything that's not a positive destination so a positive a positive destination is um a further training and work or educate or further education and so anything else so basically a young person who will not have um um um our destination really does that make sense um yeah Philip do you want to add anything to that yeah in terms of how we've usually recorded it would be something that's unemployed or or not doing anything else or unknown in terms of what i do not then be considered too negative it's one of the many examples of education speak think that uh so we talk about positive destinations don't we so this is the contrary um councillor bennette you wanted to ask a question and i say you councillor mumford thank you convener and from appendix one the review group looking at the grant making process there are schools that don't have enhanced support bases but they also have young people with additional needs so is there anyone on the group representing those schools thank you so i would it is impossible to have someone representing each and each individual school so we do trust that our colleagues in the education team in the in the call in the council we'll be able to represent that kind of broader uh school view of us well Philip do you have is there any other ways in to the other schools um in terms of other schools all the schools have got 16 plus meetings so have antennas flagged up in terms of anyone need that additional support that can be picked up through those those 16 plus means within the schools so that they are kind of getting that that right support to be same posted to the right routes and if once you have this service in place hopefully then we'll be able to make sure that that does happen okay so there's a kind of route to feed in the kind of um issues that might arise that councillor benefit benefit councillor Bennett is raising thank you um i see you councillor his lot but i have councillor uh mumford first i have convener yeah i had a question on 4.7.7 in the report so um that the requirements would be to support around 20 people a year and so i just wondered how that um it seems quite small compared to the demand so what's the what's the match up between demand and provision there and also i wondered um given that lots of the the ASN that's being talked around are things like autism which we know have have heavily gendered aspect i wondered if there's any requirement around um breakdown of those 20 people um and how will we be recording um some of the sort of intersecting barriers given that it's a small sample and we don't we want to avoid um gig saw identification but we want to make sure we we know who we're um who we're helping and how that all works so yeah anything you can tell me about that would be really helpful thank you do you want to pick up on that yes in terms of the the initial numbers the ideas to hopefully have this as a pilot to test and see what the demand is for the service so that's why we've started with a fairly small scale scale in terms of 20 um it's a more expensive service to deliver than a usual mainstream service just because the intensive support would be offered as part of the service um so the numbers are smaller and i think the kind of um one would be to kind of test those numbers see how that meets with um the demand and then from there if we discovered that there was definitely more demand we would then need to look at what we could do in terms of budget to be able to increase the size of the service if it was successful in terms of the question in terms of um the different uh kind of needs in terms of who would be referred for the service um our other um services that we offer are running up on a planned disability basis so we don't do any kind of segregating in terms of um the needs we just go on the basis of who we get referred to make sure we can meet those needs um so there's no intention at that moment to look at kind of separating out the numbers in terms of all the services is offered and it's too but as i say that if it was offered initially we as a pilot to test and see what the needs were and if there was any need to do that go forward that's something we could consider thank you um do you want to come back on any of that council a month before yeah if that's okay thank you that was really helpful just um just to check um so you will be monitoring um yeah things like um different demographics of who's being supported throughout the project yeah we use our um helix system so we're careful in terms of the barriers that are coming through and what the needs are of those that we've been worked with so we can close the monitor through the service because it's a pilot so we'll be very much looking to see how the needs are and how we can tend to serve us forward if it's successful thank you eelan apologies just to add very briefly to that obviously asked with all reporting it is based on what the information the the individual is willing for us to monitor and share so and there will always be some gaps in that data but hopefully and we should have a rather comprehensive set of data after the first year so we know actually what's what's worked what has on work then and what we can recommend for a future provision thank you eelan and finally i think how's the his lot thanks can be there thanks for the reports um i've got a question about the l e p itself and about the grant making process obviously it's great that um special schools schools with enhanced support bases local coordination team social work transition education psychologists and skills development Scotland we're all involved in the grant making process um but the the panel that ultimately decides on the winning bid will be made up of the just the local employability partnership and obviously asm in terms of employability and so asm provision is a very specific type of provision for employability which requires potentially a lot of insight into and a lived experience of what it's like to be asm in employability or looking for a job and for the work and training so i'm just wondering what we can if we can be sure that within the l e p itself there's going to be adequate skills and experience to judge as a panel and if we can kind of get some confirmation or have some discussion with them that we feel that having representatives from the asm community on that panel making those judgment calls is important thank you so it's kind of reassurance about the composition of the panel and um we we try to ensure that all panels are are mixed and have representation both from service providers on service users etc and so we'll certainly take that on board and and and try and ensure that we have that we will definitely have representatives there that have a lot of experience in delivering services to um people with additional support needs but i'd recognize that um delivering to and experiencing that delivery may be may differ quite a lot as well so we take that on board thank you thank you um councilor hislop are you satisfied with that and you want to before i move on to yeah please do so i'm just looking at the l e p obviously the local employability partnership uh you learn and thanks for that response so i think the representative that's listed on the local employability partnership who will be on the panel with ultimately judging and this is the head of policy no head of business and inclusive growth are we able to i mean and everyone else is from the capital city partnership from the department of work and pensions the chamber of commerce edamard college NHS lowlands skills development Scotland edamard university and evoc which is great and obviously their expertise is employable in employability across the board and within our own organization we have one representation one representative as it would appear um so how do we how do we kind of try and obviously your answer was very much about what we can do in the skills that we have as an as an authority which is great and i'm sure that our representative the head of business and inclusive growth will um bring that to the role and that experience is there any way that we can impress upon these other members within the l e p that we really would like a lot of within that decision making process representatives that have an understanding of of a s n and what it means to be a s n and unemployed looking for work thank you so just um the the lab and the representative from the council is myself um so yeah it feels like so the the lab's role is really more to kind of agree that overarching strategy for employability as a whole with input from specialist in areas as and when required the scoring panels so it perhaps should have been clearer that scoring panel won't be so i won't be scoring these because i don't have that expertise myself but we have a a subset scoring panel with with that we'll have people with the expertise around ASM provision and employability delivery as well and so when we're saying so you have the the lab who have set the strategy who have agreed based on the data and information that we have i have agreed that this is the right criteria to base the the grant um call for um and then the lab have agreed what the scoring criteria should be as well but the actual scoring will be done with people with more um frontline experience and they will then make recommendations to the lab who will say this is what we agree is the right move forward and then we will make those recommendations to um Paul Lawrence in this instance normally we'll go straight to committee in the first instance but there are no meetings between now and august and as as the report states we're quite cautious about the starting the delivery once the schools i've already started i'm very quite keen to have it in place on the first day of school starting that's very reassuring thank you so it's a kind of three-stage process isn't it so i think Councillor Flannery was next and i saw you Councillor Fullerton thanks convener um yes i just want to dig down a wee bit more um 0.47 which and the findings because i think these are really quite interesting what what i noticed is that they obviously they are quite employment business orientated but we're looking at um trying to upskill and give skills to people that are in a school environment initially so in other words it's a kind of transition and i've got two two points here one we've put the arbitrary 16 plus in there because that's the standard i but for the people that we're trying to help that 16 plus in terms of chronology looks very very different so i suppose with that in mind it's what kind of work are we doing with the schools pre to getting to that 16 plus age group because i think we'd have to do quite a lot and then i suppose my second point to that is do we have good school representation on these various steering committees that you're going to put together thank you so 16 plus is the requirement that's set from scotch government which is when we are allowed to step in anything before then is for education that being said we work very closely with colleagues in education to do exactly that and we recognize that it's not um one day schools are responsible and the next day the sort of adult services taken and and we do ensure that we have that kind of transition is as smooth as possible so we are um lacing with schools regularly we do as i referred to earlier the 16 plus meetings they don't just talk about the young people that are 16 at the time or about turn 16 it is uh i kind of scooping up young people earlier on as well and recognizing that if you are going off the tracks in in s3 then it's going to be really difficult to catch you in in s6 so therefore how do we engage with them as early as possible but we are not allowed to engage at that age so in that is the schools are doing so but they are doing that knowing exactly what the provision is in the future that they can that they can then reach that to us for support with and sorry i forgot in the second part of the question um yes the school representation admittedly that it's very employer focused and i get that um because it's post school but um it there doesn't seem to be any school representation on the and could there be within the steering groups because i think that transition period and what maybe a 16 plus someone with additional needs um having someone that actually knows that a bit more intimately over a period of time having been in education would be invaluable so it's actually including a school rep um on that and very quickly if i can just also ask about the pilot scheme for 12 months um so i suppose my first by the way i think this is a very good thing i'm trying to stand in very negative and i don't mean to um but i'm just wondering how we how we measure positivity within that how do we measure a good outcome within that because it's a very short period of time thank you thank you so school representatives are part of the the scoring panel and have been part of the sort of in the shaping the criteria for what's what's required um i do feel that we have had quite uh quite a lot of input from them and and but they and us are both very clear on what their needs are for for a future provision and we can always look at strengthening that even further and and we always do look at new ways of working together and and how we do that how we maximize that and Philip do you want to pick up a bit more on the positive um on the measures of positive positive destinations yes in terms of uh destinations then we would have a range of destinations not just kind of usual crime employment and formal training we would look at the kind of softer skills as well in terms of measuring those in terms of delivery so we we got an additive report from whoever delivers the service as well as kind of more kind of hard outcomes if you like so we do kind of measure all the delivery as part of that so we would hopefully be able to then um within that 12 month period be able to get a measure in terms of what's been achieved over that time as well as the kind of the hard outcomes that would be measured through the management information system so hopefully that we give a a flavor of how it's been collaborative thank you um i'm moving on to councilor fullerton oh thanks convener um could i request a paper the paper which outlines and highlights the seven organizations taking this forward um i'm sure it would be at your fingertips it might take me a long time to rake through but um and also list of the 24 organizations that didn't um if that's available to elected members i'm particularly interested in the areas that these the seven uh will make an impact on across the city thanks so the plan was to submit um to committee in um in august a full listing um so to basically to verify the the the decision that would have been made by the executive director of place and and that would include the applicants and and their sort of their original bids and which ones were successful and which ones were not successful that answer your question yes could you say that paper onto me thank you uh do i have any further questions before we move on now in relation to this report we don't have any amendments or um addenda uh so are we content to approve the recommendations in the report as it stands um hearing is extreme interest from the point of view of a supportive position of what we're trying to achieve and i think it's good that elected members are asking the kind of questions that they are because it's such an important part of um of work and my own daughter benefited extremely from this kind of support um so are we agreed committee thank you item 7.2 is um report by the executive director of place on employer recruitment incentives to support fair work a green group addendum has been circulated and again you are moving some more present report thank you over to you again ela um i don't have anything to add to this report either um happy to take any questions thank you any questions Councillor parker thank you and thank you for the report as well um i just wondered obviously this report talks about challenges that businesses will face as a result of of paying the real living wage but i'm just wondering if there are any other challenges um or financial challenges in particular that businesses face more broadly there are any other reasons why businesses might be in financial difficulty thanks obviously i think at the moment um the um the area of cost of living also includes businesses and businesses just like um individuals are struggling with but costs in general absolutely there's there's several um evidence that businesses are struggling with things like uh paying even paying utility bills just like individuals are as well so we're not saying that this is the only um factor on on these businesses what we have tried to illustrate in the report is that larger businesses are more likely to be able to pay apprentices a real living wage from day one and where small businesses are less likely to be able to do so so therefore the the result of this whilst not saying that we shouldn't implement these changes because we are a real living wage city and we we would like to follow Scottish governments guidance in in as far as we possibly can um we're just highlighting the fact that this may lead to a few arrests in these being able to to receive these benefits but that doesn't mean that we can't there are other ways that we can support them as well thank you counselor thank you convener uh council park has already asked the question i was going to ask so i'll move on to another one um there seems to be well it appears to be arrested enforcing the real living wage is obviously going to lead to fewer apprenticeships available to young people and make it much harder for them to get a career path and potentially lose confidence self esteem etc i'm just what can the council do to help mitigate this big questions today um we are providing support in general so through our business gateway service for example we provide a lot of support for our businesses that are looking to recruit and take on new employees our employability services are providing other support as well and to businesses and to the young people that are looking to enter apprenticeships employee recruitment incentives is only one of very many mechanisms of supporting businesses and whilst i think we probably need to be clear that um there is a risk that we may not be able to help as many SMEs to create apprenticeships and that is because historically we have made these employer recruitment incentives towards SMEs what we now could do is look to work with larger employers to try and create more um more opportunities for our apprentices in larger employers which historically we haven't really focused very much on thank you do you want to come back you look as though you might want to avoid a bit of single estate actually thank you councilor mumford thank you yeah um so my question is around the the sort of theme throughout the report which as you've said Elin is is trying to look at the risk stores SMEs but but could be read as um feeling that modern apprenticeships and apprentices shouldn't shouldn't be getting the real living wage so um in recommendation 1.1.3 we talk about um looking and monitoring the consequences of this and i wondered if there were plans to monitor positive consequences of this for example on those apprentices or people now able to take on apprenticeships because they're being paid the real living wage and therefore able to cope with things like the rise in the cost of living thanks i think because one of our criteria is also that the employer needs to continue to pay the real living wage and um so what we're not trying to encourage is employers taking on a new member of staff for the one year that they're being funded and then laying them off again so one of our criteria is that in order to get an employer recruitment incentive you must prove that you're able to keep them on and um although the first year may be paid or they can use our incentive to pay the salary for the first year they may not be able to continue that after the first year and therefore we don't think that that would be the right thing to do either to employ someone on a higher salary for a first year and then once they no longer receive the incentive they drop they drop them in salary so we would need to ask for evidence that they tend to continue to pay the real living wage even beyond the incentive time ends but you're absolutely right we will continue to monitor and as we always do we will monitor how many apprenticeships and how many full time jobs how many part-time jobs are being created as thanks to an incentive and i believe that obviously going forward and we will see a 100 percent response rate that all the jobs and apprenticeships are being created are real living wage paid i should highlight that there are some employers that are paying the real living wage to apprentices but there they are unfortunately not very many thank you um your hand's still up council member does that mean you want to come back yes please thank you but it's just it was it was really the positive consequences for the individuals um of receiving this wage so we'll be doing any sort of engagement with people doing apprenticeships um at all or we'll be through the employer side thanks sorry what's the question do we engage with the employees as well as the employer well we do any sort of surveying monitoring of of how they you know how they're finding the apprenticeships if they are able to take apprenticeships on because of the increase in wage and that is not a question that we've been asking to date but we do have so each employee um has a sort of support worker within my team as well who engages with them directly and ensures that they're sort of being treated well and and that the the employment is processing progressing as planned so to speak so um i can i could imagine that we could do that as part of those conversations as well as seeing has this actually enabled you to take on an apprenticeship when you otherwise wouldn't have been able to could be a question we could ask going forward absolutely so that would be a route to capturing that positive um positive stories if you like from individuals so that sounds of that could be done relatively easily um is that okay with you councillor mumford any further questions on this report before we move um we do have um i mean i i'll i'll move uh the report and its recommendations and i note that we have an addendum from the green group which um to my mind complements what we've already got within the report itself so um i will move the report and indicate that i would be willing to accept the green group addendum do i have a seconder for that thank you kavina happy to say second thank you councillor pogson councillor parker do you want to yeah thank you um so it is a very simple addendum and i think it's just making the point that though the report is right to identify that there will be financial pressures associated with payment of the real living wage to apprentices there are also many other factors independent of that requirement to pay a real living wage which contribute to those so um i think it's really important that we note that payment of a real living wage will be very positive for individuals involved and i think the council should be enthusiastic about the fair work first criteria from the government because i think that mirrors the work that we're doing locally um with things like the fair work charter um the reason why i think it's really important that we specify this with the addendum is because we don't want to be seen to be sending the message that it is only payment of a real living wage to apprentices which is putting pressure on businesses and it's not of the factors high inflation high rents high energy costs and so on and those are all things that we need to support businesses with through the business gateway in the round so um that's kind of the the theme of the addendum i did also want to share feedback from the national society of apprentices they weren't able to put together a deputation today but they did share that they also have concerns about any suggestion that paying a real living wage to apprentices is in isolation causing untold financial pressure for businesses and they also wanted to highlight the very many benefits of paying a real living wage to apprentices themselves too thank you councillor parker do i have a seconder for your addendum formally thank you convener thank you and uh given that i'm proposing to accept that addendum does that mean that we have unanimous approval of the report's recommendations as addended if that's a word i'm looking around the room and seeing not so many thanks okay that takes you on to item 7.3 um 2024 25 housing revenue capital program this is a report by the executive director of place a green group addendum has been circulated and we have michael kellett and graham read i think they're on teams to introduce the report thank you uh who's going to michael oh yes i see michael yeah right oh it's graham welcome graham i think they're on mute graham yeah i think you need to turn up your sound just a wee bit it's quite hard you try again graham please can you hear me now okay i need to speak up a little bit that's yeah that worked thank you graham sorry uh for being real disruptive um i'm just checking you can hear me now we can hear you on you go i'm really sorry um yes sorry i don't have anything to add to the report and i'm happy to take any questions thank you do i have any questions um counselor parker thank you um i have a couple on the mix tenure improvement service which is referenced and then i also have a couple of questions about contractor risks as well from the appendix i will start with the contractor risks because i can see jackie it's coming because she might have answers on the other stuff so um appendix five um there's a comment about contractor capacity and there's a reference to the housing property framework which will be renewed in 2024 um and i guess my question really is have we been working on a framework since 2019 and is that one of the reasons why we've struggled for contractor capacity in the sense that have our needs within the housing service and the sort of people that we need to be doing the work for us have they changed since then um i guess i'm trying to understand if this is a a positive opportunity for us i guess to to try and get additional resource in doing the right sorts of work so try and progress all of the things that that we want to do within the service thanks um i'll try and comment on on that one because the parker firstly and jackie can maybe follow up um the current framework the maximum period of time for a framework related to users four years i think we're probably three years in and to the most recent framework um probably about nine months a year to go before the current one expires so you know you've mentioned 2019 there i would imagine that's um probably part of the previous framework that has expired already um to your question around opportunities yes we what we're trying to do as we move the transition from an older framework into the new one is to look at lessons learned to establish what's worked really well through the frameworks and perhaps maybe what hasn't worked so well and also trying to make sure that the new frameworks are aligned to how business has been carried out so as an example we're just moving um through um our review for housing and homelessness and the next framework will be aligned to make sure that that reflects um how we're organizing ourselves within the structure as well and the who partner that process and we will make sure that we're going back to the market and we're asking patterning questions around um how what what we want to get there what what we want carried out and how we want it carried out we have that work as and you know just a bit of detail around uh you know specifics around the the the type of work that's going to be involved through the capital program that we're looking to do through you know our strategic plans that we've got um i hope that answers Jackie may be able to come in and add a compliment to that thank Jackie do you want to come in no that's fine you're happy with that um i've got other people wanting to come in let's go follow up on that and then i can come back later i'll mix tenure if that's okay um so i guess just to check you you said um it gives us an opportunity to to reframe the work that we want to do i guess my question is does that include more interest knowledge or skills within things like retrofitting work and work to tackle climate nature emergencies because i i assume that's a shift that we've seen within the housing service over the past couple of years um on yes so the we've always looked at opportunities to to keep work in-house and so through the capital program there will be opportunities to to review that and whenever possible will either maintain in-house resource or or look to um to widen that out and yes the the frameworks that were looked to implement um will always align the council commitments and or longer-term strategies as well so that's all that's all taken in the round um as we move through a procurement plan and then through into the you know the formal phases of engagement with um whether it be consultants or contractors that we would look to bring on on board and then shortlist through through the framework then yeah that there's there will be opportunities to do that in the common months the thanks thanks Graham but there is a commitment to in-house where um possible and feasible um it's my understanding counselor dubbing thank you convenient um i've got four short but connected questions if i may um it's around uh section four um i'll just move on quickly there before you could deny me there in uh four dot seven um there are examples of the wider range of improvements that are being planned um does that is is that applicable to all programs currently in the field and and when did this start um secondly related to four dot nine where it says that the low rise area-based programs then site across Magdalene Bingham and the Christians um there's work going on crew road gardens at the moment is that part of the same program and then the same improvements or is that a previous program or or treated separately um in four thirteen um it talks about the e s a b s program and looking at funding on on private owners referring back to the Magdalene Bingham and the Christians areas um i'm just wondering if there's an opportunity for if you like add hook work with private owners in areas where there are if you like infills required it's quite noticeable where a non-council how or non-council and block is in an area where external work has been done because it it's not white and gray like the rest of them um and then the final one if i may convener um it refers in appendix four two dot four to a program um to uh get involved in Gruntan Medway north i'm just wondering why not Gruntan Medway is south as well thank you thank you sneaky Councillor Dobbin but i see Michael Kellett's here and i think he'd be able to respond to some of the specifics that you raised there um Michael thank you thank you convener so in in terms of the first question the range of interventions are eliciting 4.7 is specific to just the whole house rich of it programs so that'll be the works that'll be undertaken for the high rise blocks that are in design and developments and the two low rise area based schemes at restory glock end and Magdalene and Bingham um on the query in relation to crew road north 4.9 so that is um so that was a scheme that was launched last financial year that will run into this financial and that's just the way the the Scottish government's energy efficient Scotland area based scheme funding works but that isn't whole house rich fits that's mainly fabric improvements and roof replacements um in that area and that's a mixture of of of council and private that's um linked to the area based scheme program um i'll jump onto the query around grant and midway north um what i'll do is if i there's 1500 and council blocks that form part of that program but i think some of it might i think we've just we've just used the term grant in midway north just to try and locate it but i think some other hundred percent blocks in that area might sit slightly out with that in in to the south of or grant in midway north so if i can just double check all the addresses of all 15 blocks there um i'll just just to confirm exactly where they are um and in terms of the query around 4.13 around the area based scheme in potential for infill i don't know if if jackie if if i might be able to comment on that because i think it just relates to the the opportunity to go back in areas where work has been completed such as more event from bride and wear i don't know the ownership profile may have changed or there may be interest from that block um to progress works that they they um didn't manage to to vote through or where the council didn't have a majority so um i don't know jackie if if you're able to comment on opportunities for revisiting to look at infill uh where the situations have changed jackie do you want to come in on that and yes so there's a couple of things there that the blocks are fully private that are in a area based scheme we have actually approached them and because we are acting as an owner in in that area we're not acting as a local authority and forcing work but actually as a no one in a landlord and we've no powers to take forward work in private blocks as you'll be aware um but we have approached them and said there's an opportunity for them to take it through you know the tenement scotland art using this tenement toolkit and so shared repairs line with that to and give them introduction if you like to those contractors to see you know if you want to approach any of these people and and get quotes and you know the opportunities there and then the second thing would be that change works um have got for next year a program throughout the city just dealing with private blocks um and private properties so there'll be an opportunity through the change works program that they run for us and get grants for private owners you know through the esab scheme and for them to take forward some blocks there thank you and i'm not going to let you come back in counselor dubbin because you've already thank you thank you counselor mamford thank you um yeah i had a question on 4.6 i'm right insourcing um so it talks about the the in-source capacity in particular in particular areas and being developed as part of the action plan and is expected to be in place by march 2025 with implementation over a two-year period and i just wondered if you could say more about why why that timescale way why it will take until march 25 to to get a plan in place and march 2027 seems along way away when when the workforce strategy actually says that some of those areas are off are fairly um well more simple than others to implement so it talks about kitchens and bathrooms thanks thanks counselor mamford and i think sarah bones is here and she'd be able to respond to that yes thank you um significant amount of work in terms of developing a full and housing plan that we have made some start just to give reassurance um on bringing some works in house already so we are starting to do that incrementally so an example of that would be the growth of the dampness team so we're starting to do some in-house works very small team at the moment and we're recruiting just now to try and build that but also we've built in some additional capacity into the proposals for the housing homelessness service review to increase number of gas engineers to try to start incrementally again reduce dependency on external contractors and we've also started to do some windows and doors work that um previously we were putting um a entirely out contractors but starting to skill a part in house team to do that so we're we're the opportunities there um just now in the in the capacity is there we are incrementally moving in that direction what we need to do in terms of developing a full and housing plan is essentially work through all of the works that we require to carry out and i'm talking about this from a perspective of repairs and maintenance and servicing rather than the the capital program necessarily but examining all of the works that that we carry out right across the service and really I suppose applying some criteria to whether those are works that we would want to bring in house or actually are better delivered continuing to be delivered out by specialist contractors so that would be specialist work where either the skills are difficult for us to recruit to or it's relatively small scale and and actually you know from from our perspective in terms of trying to build those those skills in house and having the resilience around them it wouldn't be a viable sort of approach. I suppose the other thing that we need to think about in terms of evaluating all of that is things like specialist equipment that we might require what kind of supplies we might require so we really need to work through step by step the I suppose the vast variety of works that we carry out right across the service and determine what is the optimum approach for for delivery of those moving forward recognizing that there will still be a role for external contractors. I suppose the other challenge in this and you know we talk about regularly but is obviously trying to recruit those resources in house so the dependency on building the the the in house building the in housing plans very much depends on having an assurance we'll be able to recruit those resources internally so again that's a bit of a work in progress so I suppose just keen to offer assurance that we are taking steps now to move in that direction but the scale of this piece of work in amongst everything else that we're delivering at the moment realistically I'm working towards a time scale of March for a fuel plan the implementation of the over two year period again is just recognizing there'll be a huge recruitment upskilling you know changing of kind of contractual arrangements that we would need to put in place so anticipating that's likely to be again an incremental approach but probably over a two-year period. Thank you. That's very reassuring. Thanks Councillor Mumford. So I have Councillor Bruce, Councillor Flannery, Councillor Hislop and Councillor Parker waiting to come in and I propose to take you in that order so Councillor Bruce. Thank you it can be a and thank you for the report. It talks a lot about the lack of funding to help build affordable homes, whole house retrofit etc. If we're not getting the funding that we need is there a risk that developers if they're not doing so already moving their workforce to other parts of the UK and hence we will lose that skilled workforce that could be obviously put to good use building and retrofitting homes here is would there be a delay to any future house building programs? David Cooper's in the public gallery and making his way down so I think he will be able to respond to that. Yes. I think is the short answer. If there isn't a steady supply of projects then contractors will downsize and won't ultimately be able to invest in such much in projects and staff so these things tend to work hand in hand in hand. If the rate of development slows then we will see some contractors starting to move away from Scotland and we've seen that not so much necessarily in house building but we've certainly seen it in commercial construction already. Okay so when could I just say we follow up so if that's happening should it pick up here in future years it could be potential delay to getting any building projects going in that way? I think it's it's already an issue if you talk to a lot of private sector developers again maybe some of it less so with housing at the moment I would say where there's generally steadier flows of development and people can retain teams but on other big projects people are definitely talking about the inability of contractors to be able to provide a service to them because they are fully committed to projects now. Obviously changes as projects come down and people are looking at their workbooks and saying well can I take on more projects but in simple terms if there aren't projects then generally contractors will have to look at their workforces and will have to look at whether they're going to be operating in certain areas. So moving on to Councillor Flannery. Thanks very much Convener. My questions are around 4.23 so it's about the broader estate investment, HRA land and I see at the end of that section that there will be a report so obviously we will have something to read but I wonder what might be anticipated in that report particularly around the fact that it mentions about needing a more joined up approach to estate based improvements so I wonder what that might be and the second part to the question is about how might that fit in with something like the right to grow policy that we're also developing particularly around community gardens. Thank you. Thank you that view Lisa. Yeah I think it'll be a variety of different members of the team that will work on that together obviously there was a motion that was approved so the detail will be seeking to cover the detail of the motion in that report as well and yes it really is about a lot of different work strands across the estate and we're just seeking to bring those together and obviously don't have any gaps and anything that we might need to do and develop a more detailed plan going forward so be a variety of different work streams brought together but I don't know if Paul wants to know. Right it just tried briefly to convince something that both elected members and neighbourhood based organisations occasionally talk to us about which is different bits of the council having as it were different responsibilities in shared areas and I do think it's something which as a director as a council we need to do a bit more work and I know Lisa and George Norville and others have done quite a lot of work on moving from NEPs to a more integrated approach but came home to me actually when we were in Murray Burn not that long ago looking at have lots of different bits but actually nobody having having the overview of the whole piece and that is something we want to try and work on as officers in terms of responsibilities and also maybe bring a report back to committee on if there are kind of outcome issues that we'd like to try and address so I do think there's further work needed on a kind of certainly as a place director basis possibly some other parts of the council as well. Thank you. I just come back. It really is just a comment and it's just to say that there's some fantastic community organisations out there that are absolutely champing a bit to get out there, grow, create, produce and if we can really harness that that would be brilliant. Thank you. There's one just at the end of my street as it happens. So, OK, so Councillor hislop. Thank you. Can be an art? I think it was noted at the APM that I think it was potentially Lisa that said that conversations were ongoing with the Scottish Government about the 80 million pound national acquisitions fund and there was still uncertainty around how that was going to be allocated and used and I was just wondering if there's any updates since then? Yes, thanks so much for the question. Basically, we're still waiting to hear exactly how it's going to be allocated. I've had some conversations with officers. It's less likely to be a bit in process. It's likely to be more allocated across local authorities but the exact nature of that is still currently unknown as soon as I do know we're happy to update committee. Thanks and I suppose it's important to point out that as I understand the 80 million over two years, is that correct? Thank you. Are you happy with that, Councillor? Yes. I meant that. Yes. Should have clarified. Thank you. Councillor Park. Yeah, thank you. So, just a couple of questions on the mix tenure. Improvement service which is referenced sort of sections, well, 4.9ish of the report and then also a little bit in the appendix in terms of the risks as well. My question is really they speak to the deputation earlier in terms of trying to understand a little bit more about what support is in place for private tenants as part of the mix tenure works and whole house retrofits. So, in the appendix, for example, under risks around owner and tenant engagement, we specify that there is dedicated case officer support in place to support landlords, owner occupiers and council tenants but obviously conspicuously missing from the list is private tenants. So, I just wondered if we could say a little bit more about that and I guess in particular the reason why I'm quite interested is because I know from the appendix that the sort of second phase of the mix tenure works is much larger than the first phase in terms of the number of private homes and private tenants that are being supported compared to in Westerhales. So, I'm just wondering how is the service, like what are we doing differently that we did in that first pilot for this pilot to reflect the fact that that's a different population of people. Thanks. And so, sorry, come and give me a... Sorry. Yeah, so with private tenants, it's... we've had... we have had been criticized by landlords in the past for speaking to private tenants without going through them. So, there's a relationship there that we have to manage and obviously the the the the contractual part of that relationship is with landlord not the private tenant but we know we're absolutely committed to engaging with these people who have done three drop-in sessions at lock-in to wrestle to get the ripple centre so far. We've got two on this week. So, it's actually completely different. The area is Westerhales to lock-in. They're completely different. There's much more community involvement in lock-in don't necessarily because you'll be aware from the deputation but we'll absolutely commit to improving our PRS tenant relationships so that they know what's going on because, you know, it's the same as the council tenant part of it. There's no bills for them to pay but obviously it affects them. It's going to be really positive for them if their landlord doesn't sell because, you know, the energy efficiency improvements will reduce the heat that they all have to pay for in their homes. We've seen results at Westerhales. It's been incredible just how how good the measures have been and what the outcomes have been for tenants there. So, I'll make sure that we distribute our newsletters to all the PRS tenants and that area now as well. It's just a small follow-up that's good and it's good to hear about the sessions. I guess the key thing that stood out for me there is that you said it will be really positive for tenants if the landlord doesn't sell. So, I guess my question is how do we stop that from happening and how do we reassure tenants, I guess, who are wondering that question themselves because obviously this will impact them in terms of their home. That's a really difficult one because how can we stop a landlord selling his property not, you know, as opposed to why they're looking at this sort of what's happening in the sector. Just now the there will be standards put on landlords and they will have to improve their properties through the heating and building bills that's coming out. So, they will have standards to be anyway and, you know, to make sense for them to let us do it because we're going to have this area based, we're going to have economies of scale, we're going to have proven chart records with experienced contractors make sense for them not to sell. So, I suppose there's time for them to consider their options put that way. It's not like we, you know, we start engaging and they have a bill to pay in a couple of months. It could be 12 months for them to consider and process just what's happening, what it's going to cost, you know, the estimates, what the funding is for them. There's also support from the Scottish Government through Home Energy Scotland, there's landlord loans and quite low interest rates. So, there's, you know, there's support for landlords as well and we just need to work through that and that's the answer to your question. Thank you, Jackie. Councillor Hizlop. Thanks, Canvenor. Yeah, thanks all, Jackie. I noted, I mean, I was very grateful that I got in contact with officers in your cell phone market. We're on hand to give us a myself and a ward, my mum, sorry, my colleague, Councillor Astin, who's the ward colleague for risk rig. Lock-end area where a lot of these residents are obviously affected at the minute with ongoing schemes. And shortly after that, I met with those residents and having a not understanding view from your perspective of the programme and how it's been rolled out was very helpful in those discussions. But one of the things that stuck out in my conversations with those residents, which I was a bit surprised at following our own discussion, was how they felt that actually they'd been let down significantly by the lack of good solid communication, particularly with tenants. And I wonder what can be done there to, obviously, because there's a real need for this, as we move into transition to net zero, for this to be a successful scheme. Obviously, it's still early on in the journey of these schemes. I mean, just had the pilot completed not that long ago in Western Hills, and it's important that we get this right. And residents are coming to us saying that the communication is completely off, despite the fact that maybe the perspective from officers is not that it's off, that we were doing a good job, certainly that was the impression that I got when I spoke to yourself and Mark. And so, I'm just curious to know why there's that disparity and if there's more that we can do to try and improve on that, and if we're actually listening to those residents like the residents that appear to date to try and improve the relationship that we have with them. So, I mean, these programs are over three years, and we know now what the area is. So, we're engaging with everybody to let them know we've arrived, and we're going to try and work through improving your property. So, the people that are in phases that are probably not happening for a couple of years yet, only know that it's coming, but they don't know anything else. And I totally understand it's stressful and the anxiety that might cause knowing what the cost estimates might be, but we can't rush through that part of it until we get to that part of the phase. So, we've committed to do is improve the website for one, saying what phases are coming, you know, what addresses will be in those phases, when we'll start to gauge with real information on those, because we've a lot of pre-work to do with liability checks, till we cut title deeds, till we cut the scope, obviously, for each block, every survey, block is to be surveyed. So, there's a lot of information to be given to the residents when we get to that stage, but it's what they know now and what they will get, you know, we can't rush that process. So, it's a three-year program. Go ahead, Councillor Haslam. Yeah, thanks for that. It does make sense, you know, it's a little bit strong out process, but I can understand with the fear of eviction, or as an owner-occupier, not knowing how much the bill is going to be at the end of the day, like from the residents that we're here today, I know that one of them is an owner-occupier, and they don't know if the bill at the end of the day is going to be 5,000 or 50,000, and I can't imagine how stressful that would be without looming over you. Are you going to move? You know, do you have dependence? So, for example, are you, when that bill comes through the door, you might have, now at this point, a young child, and looking towards starting school, but then if you get in two years down the road after they've started, you get a 50,000 or 20,000 pound bill, and you can't pay that, you decide to sell up and you have to move, and the disruption that that causes. I can imagine that that is quite stressful, and I know that you recognise that as well, and that there's limited steps that we can take. One of the steps, I don't know if you've seen the petition and the letter from the living rent who are obviously representing today. One of the actions or the asks in their petition is that there's greater community involvement in the decision-making itself, and I wonder if you think that there's any way in which that is actionable, if these residents and, obviously, you've said that we are there acting not as a local authority, but as an owner, and so we're on almost level footing with a lot of those owners, whether they're landlords or owner-occupiers, and whether there's something about that, that means that we can take measures to have a more kind of a grassroots approach that involves, throughout these processes, developing these schemes, more community involvement, which is the main ask, one of the three particular main asks of living rent. Thank you, that was a lengthy supplementary with more than one issue. In it, Jackie, do you want to respond to any of that? So, oh, sorry, can I quickly, because the website was a specific that we were asked this morning, I'm glad that you mentioned that, because that's something we can pretty quickly sort out, I hope, at least. Yeah, we're on that, we're actually working on that now, so that's a commitment for me. On your question about consultation and making decisions and things, so there's this, obviously, a strict process that has to happen through the 10 in Scotland Act, and there's boating, you know, there's one boat per flat, and you'll know the sort of bones of that scheme. But what we're doing is we're putting forward a scope of works that is the minimum scope of works that we can provide through this 10 in Scotland Act, that is repairs or maintenance. We're not doing anything more than that, it's, if a thing is defined as repairs and maintenance, so it's the minimum. The lock-endedness, the properties are over 100 years old, as you know, so there's, it's a busier, much busier area for contractors to work in, inflation's going up and things like that, so there's a lot more elements to the cost estimate. There's also contingencies and provisional sums and things, if we don't use them, we won't be charging for them, so there's, it's got to be an estimate, and it probably feels quite high to owners at the time, but it has to include the risks and the contingencies to prevent us from, you know, getting that wrong, so it's a cost estimate until the very end of the process. On the consultation, it would, I can't think of anything that we could consult on that would reduce the costs, any, because it is just the minimum that we are doing, that, you know, we're not doing any more than that, but obviously take any ideas from anybody if they want to, to let us know, and we'll have an on-site presence in lock-endedness very shortly and we'll be starting quite soon, you know, on the first phases, so we'll be their case officers are there on-site, you know, weekly, and anybody wants a one-to-one meeting and we'll be more engagement sessions, so anybody's got any concerns at all and they just need to get in touch with us about that. Thank you. Thank you, Jackie, now, because of time, we're going to have to move on to a formal approach to this, so many thanks for your contributions and can I, in moving the report quickly recognize we as a committee have a duty and a responsibility to interrogate and scrutinize reports that come to us, and in doing so it sometimes feels as though we're being perhaps heavily more heavily on the critical end of the spectrum, but what I would like to do in moving the report is two things, one is recognize the complexity of some of the work that happens within, you know, behind the words in this report, so that for example I've been out to visit the mixed tenure improvement project in Westerhales and recognized the huge amount of work that sits behind achieving what has been achieved out there, and equally in terms of the forthcoming one in lock-end that we as a council and primarily, not prior, equally via meetings that we have with lock-end living rent that we are committed to a relationship with tenants, and that's, I know, what's behind a lot of the questions that people have been asking today, so I would just like to ask you all to agree that there is a huge amount of very careful work that sits behind this report, in moving the report I'd like to indicate that we have an addendum from the green group, and I find that a helpful one, I think the question of what you might call benchmarking in three, we've got one, two, three recommendations that that might take some time, but generally those are helpful suggestions, and therefore I would move the report with an indication that I would want to accept the addendum, do I have a seconder? You think it can be an anything seconding, I may just may make a very brief comment just to recalling that it must be a couple of months ago now that the members of the housing committee were actually invited by living rent to an event that they were holding down at the Ripple Centre, where they were inviting residents throughout the area who were affected by this scheme to come along and meet with us now, I actually attended that event, and nobody else was there that evening, you know, diaries, et cetera, et cetera, but it was a very useful occasion to hear all these issues that we're hitting ahead this morning, to hear them at first hand, then I was able to bring those back to officers and have some of those conversations, and I just want to say, you know, that we both ward councillors, and I know that there's been reference to ward councillors that, you know, we are part of the solution, perhaps in terms of the communications and just feedback and being part of that process of helping to, you know, it is a major scheme and over a number of years, and that the very second point I want to make in seconding the motion is just, I think we also remember that, as Jackie has mentioned, you know, the remarkable positive outcomes that were achieved in the first scheme, the pilot scheme, and what we're trying to achieve here, and this, you know, it should transform the lives of the residents of these blocks, whether they be private tenants or whatever, so I just want to kind of remind us of that as well, but happy to second, thank you. Thank you, councillor Poggson, do I have a proposal for the Green Addendum? Yeah, thank you. Yeah, and thank you, convener as well, for your words, you know, introducing the report and also to officers in Jackie for your engagement on mixed tenure work in in general previously, because I know it is very complicated and ambitious piece of work, and it's really important that council does it. I think we heard a very good deputation earlier about the experience of tenants in lock-end and Russell rig around the mixed tenure improvement service, and this addendum is trying to sort of speak to that in a constructive way. So essentially the addendum notes a whole bunch of reasons why now might be a good time for us to have a deeper dive into the mixed tenure work, particularly now the first pilot is coming to a close and given the updates from various things at Scottish Government level, Green Heat Finance Task Force, the Heat and Buildings Build that was referenced so it feels, feels apt. I was very struck by the deputation earlier when Simon spoke about the recognition of the need to do this work, but also about the need to ensure that we do so in a way which is fair and which is in line with the just transition. As a Green councillor, I would hope that people would recognize I'm an advocate of action to address the climate and nature emergencies, but I would also hope that people know that I am equally an advocate for ensuring that that whole scale transition that we need to see across society to tackle those crises happens in a way which is just and fair, and I think if people are being evicted, if people are being put into debt, then this would be a failure on our part as councillors and decision makers. So the deputation today, the correspondence that we've had prior to now, I think, gives me at the very least pause for thought about if we're getting this right, and particularly on the point of communications with residents and private tenants in particular and the anxieties which are described by the residents this morning which councillor Hislop addressed in his comments too, I think it's really important that we take some time to reflect on those. So the subject of the addendum really is to say let's have a closer look at the mixed tenure improvement service from the first pilot, let's reflect on lessons learned around communications, let's specifically look at that question of what we're doing for private tenants within the programme, and let's also review the assistance scheme because things are constantly changing, we've had a list of schemes of assistance from other local authorities already, but I think what we haven't had is an analysis or consideration of what those differences between schemes of assistance might mean for us in Edinburgh, and if there's any learning we can apply for them. So that's what I'm looking to achieve, I guess, with a report when it comes forward, and I hope that if it is approved, then we can all continue to engage constructively with that, both with residents on the ground and also here at committee, thanks. Thank you, do I have a seconder? Well, Melanie, thank you, Covina. Thank you, Councillor Mumford. Can I just take a kind of temperature of the room? I think that possibly we're inclined to approve the motion, they report as addended. Can I, I haven't got anything to the contrary, so are we going to agree that? Thank you, that's very helpful and timely, it's now five past one, so I'm assuming that you'll all be wanting to break for lunch, which makes sense, and if we could be back, we've got still a lot of work to get through this afternoon, could we take three-quarters of an hour and please try to be absolutely on time coming back, so that would take us to 150, thank you very much to my assistant. I've got a huge issue. So 150 back in the room, thank you, everybody. Welcome back, everybody. Thank you, welcome back, everybody, and thank you for coming back in a timely fashion, and thank you for those of you who negotiated with me over the break, and can we move on, Jamie, to the next item? Let's give you an item, item 7.4, update strategic housing investment plan 2425 to 2829, this is a report by the executive director of place, an administration addendum, and a liberal democrat group addendum have been circulated, and Lisa Mallon will introduce the report. Thank you, Lisa. Hi, thanks, we've actually got a few slides that we're just going to hand through, if that's okay, just as part of the report. Oh yeah, thank you, I think that would be helpful and colour as well, indeed, thank you. I'm just hoping we can get this to work, which we can, that's fantastic. Yes, so it's just a few slides, myself and Hazel Ferguson, who heads up the council house building team will chip in as well, but we just thought it was good to sort of pick out the key pertinent points that were in the report, so I'll just kick off. So first of all, I was kicking off with a bit of a timeline, just sitting out basically what's happened over the last six months in terms of funding and the affordable housing supply program, so we annually submit the strategic housing investment plan, which is a five-year plan that sets out a potential pipeline of new homes that could be taken forward on the assumption, obviously, that there's the investment there to back that up. The latest report went to commit E in November and it set out that there potentially could be 11,000 affordable homes over the next five years, but it also highlighted a funding gap of over $665 million across that period. In December, we then got word from the Scottish government that their affordable housing supply program funding was going to be reduced by about 26% and the financial transactions budget also was going to be cut by about 60%, but at that time we didn't know the exact impact on Edinburgh. The council leader also wrote to Coslev because I'll explain a little bit more in the next slide just how the fund and split works between Edinburgh and Glasgow, but we asked for that and fund and split to be reviewed, and it's Coslev that take forward that, so they are considering that at their settlement distribution group this month as to whether they will take forward the review and the time skills within which they may do that. We then got confirmation just at the end of March that the cut to Edinburgh's resource plan and assumptions for this year was going to be 24%, so that was an £11 million reduction in the resource plan assumptions of $45.2 million that we had been working towards. Just recently as well, there was an additional fund announced, £80 million as we talked about already in committee on national acquisitions and that's over a two-year period, but we're still waiting to hear exactly how we either bid into that or how the funding will be distributed. So just a wee bit more information on how the funding works, so Glasgow and ourselves are the only two local authorities in Scotland that deliver the Affordable Housing Supply Funded Program ourselves so locally. That is then split between ourselves and Glasgow and it's slightly ring fenced through what we call the TMDF funding and just to flag to that the split is 70% to Glasgow and 30% to Edinburgh and just in monetary terms that means over the last five years, Glasgow's received more than double than Edinburgh have, so obviously that's why we're asking calls to take a look at that formula and see if the redistribution can be, yeah, can look at Edinburgh's percentage of that. In the past what we've said right here is the resource plan and assumptions. They were five-year, they were published over five years, where we find ourselves as obviously in the latter two years of that cycle. We've had our £45 million cut to £34 and we still don't know what next year's resource plan assumptions are going to be, which is very challenging when we're trying to plan programmes over a two-three-year period. What we've been able to achieve in the past with Edinburgh because we have a really strong pipeline and we work really closely with government is we've been able to mop up national underspends and that's been almost 20 million pounds over the last few years, so that's helped substantially. However, what we're seeing obviously is the cost of construction going up, it's unlikely that we'll be able to, there'll be much underspend across the nation, nationally, so we probably won't be able to benefit from that going forward, and it can't be relied upon either, so we can't really plan for that, we just have to react whenever money's become available. So as I say, the big challenge is not knowing what the following year is going to look like as well, and I'll just touch a little bit more on that, and the next slide, because as it sets out at the top, basically from when tenders are received on any construction project, we move into a value for money assessment, then the project becomes approved and that becomes part of our core programme going forward, and then homes go on construction, and then there's money that's drawn down throughout that, throughout different phases, throughout the project approval to completion, but that entire process, on average, and this is probably on smaller sites, can take between 18 to 24 months to complete, so therefore, often, your expenditure is based on the approvals from the previous year, because you're paying out across that project, and we define that as carry forward, and just to say, on average, a grant funding accounts for between 40 and 60% of delivering affordable homes. As part of our TMDF offer, we're told that we shouldn't carry forward more than 80% into the current year budget, with the remaining 20% of that budget, and to be used to fund new projects or anything coming forward that financial year, and that's just to continue to create that continuous pipeline, but the challenge we've had this year is 80% of what we assumed our resource plan and assumptions, where it was 34 million pounds, but our actual budget is now 34, so we're actually, we've got less than what we had approved in our carry forward. Obviously, what we can do is, and what we will seek to do, is to manage that across the years, so we will seek to manage the way in which we distribute funding across projects to even that out, but it's a very difficult starting position that we find ourselves in, so we don't have any capacity at the moment to be able to approve new projects. Also, because we do not know what 2526 is going to look like, at the minute we had already assumed a 36 million pound in carry forward, and that's what we've got in the pipeline, so therefore if that's maintained, we're just about on track, if it's not, then if it was, if we were to get the same cut as we got this year, that would be a carry forward of 27 million, which would mean we've got nine million committed that we currently don't have for grant funding for. As I say, we will work and we are working, obviously with our RSL partners, with our Council House building team, to look at phasing of that expenditure in order to be able to continue to move forward to programme, but as it stands right now, there's a great difficulty in being able to move forward with any grant funding approvals, because we don't have certainty in future years, and just the last couple of things, so just to touch on that's the grant funding programme that I've covered so far, but we also have a non-grant funded programme, and a large chunk of that comes from the open market shared equity, Scottish Government Omsy scheme, and just to give you a bit of an idea, over the last 10 years, 2500 new homes have been brought forward through that scheme. Unfortunately, the Omsy is funded from the Financial Transactions Budget, and as I mentioned at the start, that's also been cut by about 60%. We're still waiting to clarity on what that might look like and what elements still might be available for Edinburgh, but just to give you an idea, Edinburgh usually took around 50% of that budget each year, so this could have a significant impact on what we would see coming forward there. I suppose one of the key risk areas for us is our affordable housing policy, as you know, basically any residential construction that's taken forward with 12 or more homes on it, needs to provide 25% of affordable housing, and City Plan 24A seeks to increase that to 35%. Normally, that would be taken forward with an RSL partner, and there is that aspiration of about 70% of which would be for social rent. Obviously, the cutting budgets makes this particularly challenging, and the risk is that our RSLs aren't able to move forward with developers. What I would say is, obviously, as part of the affordable housing policy, the kind of baseline position would be it would become a land transfer if we weren't able to take forward the actual on-site delivery at the time with an RSL partner, but equally, we're seeking to move forward to work and to put forward mitigations wherever possible. So on the intervention side of things, just to say what we're doing so far, as I mentioned, we're continuing to work with our RSL partners, just looking at the fees and of construction and expenditure over the next couple of years. We are seeking to honor our existing approvals, so we will seek to move those forward, but we may have to phase that over a few years rather than over the next year and year and a half. We may have to seek to prioritize a fund and for the affordable housing policy that are due to be delivered over the next few years, and we're looking at other potential fund and mechanisms for that. We've got a committed sums pot in order that we can dip into in order to help move forward any affordable housing policy and applications that come forward. That may mean that we have to use the sums like with the current ward or adjacent ward that they're in, and we'll be seeking to take forward any amendments or adjustments to that through our plan and committee. The other point I suppose just to bring to the attention of committee is we may need to look at our tenure mix. As I say, we have that 70% social rent aspiration, but just looking at, obviously, the funding around that and the average benchmark that goes forward, you could deliver almost 55% more mid-market rent homes just based on the funding benchmark, and that's obviously linked to rental income and borrowing as well. We may have to look at that going forward. Obviously, we'll continue to work with government to maximize income through new acquisitions fund that's been identified, and indeed, if there's any underspents or anything like that, we will seek to jump on those as quickly as possible. The last piece, and the next slide goes into a lot more detail, looking at our own council house building, then what financial models can we look at, what things can, what levers can we pull, what innovation can we deliver in order to reduce or reliance on grant funding going forward in order to be able to deliver, continue to deliver, or pipeline, but I'm going to hand over to Hazel just for the next slide, specifically on that. Thanks, Lisa. So this slide sets out the key considerations from the report in relation to the grant funding position in the council's own house building program, also the key actions that are being taken to mitigate the current issues. In terms of the numbers, there are 489 affordable homes under construction at the moment, which are grant funding and are funded and are progressing. There are 1,102 homes at a detailed design stage just now, and they also have approved grants. So these are developments that have planning approval, or are in the planning system at the moment. So we're focusing on progressing these sites through existing procurement routes, and a complete funding package will be reviewed at Project Gateway prior to projects going on to site and under construction, but we do have a good pipeline of approved projects. There are 1,014 homes, which are also going through the design and consultation stage, but don't have any grant approval attached to them at this point. We would very much like to keep the momentum with these sites, although the report does set out that where we do allocate resources to this, without the prospect of future grant funding, there is now a higher risk that costs will result in a revenue pressure to the housing revenue account if the sites don't move on from design through to construction stage and become capital works. So these homes could start on site within the next 12 to 24 months, and they will incur spend through design work within this year's capital program. The report also sets out that there is justification for continuing to work on these sites and progressing through to planning applications and beyond. As example, it notes the housing emergency and the continued need for new homes. In addition, continuing design work and securing planning, particularly where there is a change of use to the site, will help to maintain the value in the asset, which also helps to mitigate any upfront spend. As noted in the report, there are a number of work streams being taken forward as part of the housing emergency action plan that will attempt to reduce the impact of the loss of grant. With that in mind, continuing with design work ensures that we are in a good position to react to any future changes to the funding environment. There's also a large future pipeline to consider as well, and it may be that as sites come forward, funding for those sites with fewer constraints will need to be prioritised over those where delivery has stalled, either due to cost or complexity, and a solution to the future pipeline generally is required. So there are a number of interventions to mitigate the risk of increasing costs and the impact of grant availability. We're looking at financial modelling across both social rent and mid-market rent. We'll need to have an innovative approach to this and be open to changing some of the key parameters, such as the length of borrowing or type and structure funding, and housing and finance colleagues are working with us on that, and we'll be reporting back to committee, I'm sure, and that as well. We need to manage costs. We're also focusing on the economies of scale that the Edinburgh Homes Demonstrator program could bring through the use of modern methods of construction, and looking at opportunities through the new house-building framework and professional services frameworks, which are due to be renewed in the near future. Work is also being undertaken to look at our specification to understand if there are areas where we can still deliver on our net zero ambitions, but we can scale back on the nice to have and focus on the essentials. So while doing this, we also need to be cognizant of changing regulations and making sure that we're in a good position to meet these, and we don't leave ourselves a huge gap to meet those in the future. In terms of income, we already cross-subsidized developments through an element of private sale or market rent, but we may need to look at doing this to a greater extent where there are real opportunities for strong capital receipts, and also on smaller sites where the economies of scale aren't there for affordable housing to be viable, but there is a land value that could support delivery elsewhere. This leads into business case development for more challenging sites and across some of the larger areas in the city, where we would build a case for additional funding, where that may be available. So overall, working with Lisa and the grant funding team, we'll need to prioritise resources to make the most of what we have at the moment. The challenges are obviously great, but what I wanted to demonstrate today is that we are pushing forward with the program that we have using the funding that's available, but also doing work in the background to try and ensure that delivery is sustainable into the future. I'll hand back to Lisa. Thanks, Hazel. Just the final slide really is next steps, and I think Hazel's probably covered the second half on the work on the council has built in, but just to touch on a few. So we will continue when we meet regularly with our RSL partners, and we'll continue to discuss with them just how we manage over the next few years with the pot that we have, continue to prioritise projects and seek another funding requirements. We will write to the housing minister, trying to seek the level of certainty for 25, 26 as soon as possible, because that will really help with longer-term planning. Again, as I touched on previously, we'll look at the use of cumulative sums and how we can use that to support delivery across the city. And as the last few around the work of innovative funding models and other elements we can do to reduce expenditure and deliver more homes will continue, and we will plan to bring back updates to committee on the regular and progress. So I'll just leave it there. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa and Hazel. And that was helpful, actually, to have that kind of visual presentation to complement the written report. Can I open up for questions now, please? Councillor Jones. Yes, thank you very much for that report. At the beginning, you mentioned there were, I think, 11,000 homes in the pipeline of affordable housing. However, you arrived at that figure, and can you expand on what you mean by pipeline? Because I'm not clear at all about that phrase, because do you mean you've got planning application granted? Have you got funds in place? How do you actually define pipeline? I'm happy to start on that, if that's okay, and then others can come in. So the strategic housing investment plan, we work with our RSL partners across the city, so it's identifying sites that would be suitable for housing and what could be delivered across those. So they're all various different stages. Some of them, if they're coming up in the next year or two, may have planned permission, they also may have approvals. Others are potential sites that could be brought forward. So it's quite a variety of different stages, but we work with our partners, and every year we update and refresh that. It's a Scottish government requirement, so it's based on the guidance that's set out by them and specific criteria, but I don't know if either would like to add. I think just in terms of numbers, in terms of the council programme, there's obviously those different categories of the things that have planning permission have granted allocated to them, and there's a lot of certainty around what we can build with the other areas where there might be planning permission and principles. So an outline permission that will be estimates used of what we could normally achieve on those sites of those sizes to generate that total number, but obviously not everything is ready to go with designs that are construction stage. Thank you. Can I quickly just ask for the slides to be taken down, because we've got Councillor Mumford online, and I can't see whether she wants to come in with thank you so much. I just had very briefly, I don't know if David would particularly agree with this, some years ago the Edinburgh conundrum, if I can call it that, was actually that from a financial point of view there was a degree of grant available, and the HRA was reasonably buoyant, but we didn't have sites, and therefore the pressure on sites was immense, and David Haisel, many other colleagues over the years have been doing a great job in acquiring sites from other public bodies, or in partnership with private developers, I suppose, you know, members, I'll think about them all over the city. So actually, I think what the headline is actually, we do have the sites now for a very strong pipeline, but we're in a reverse situation. We've got a pipeline of sites, but the financial situation, as Lisa has pretty clearly articulated, has completely changed. Thank you, Councillor Dobbins. Thank you, Councillor Dobbins, I'd like to thank officers for the report, not an easy report to write, and I think probably challenging in that it's required a lot of deep thought as to how to move forward. So thank you, thank you for that. I wonder just two little points, Counvenor, if you could expand a bit on when you were talking about the tenure mix and how that works, and perhaps for Haisel, you talked about the need to make what I wrote down as net zero adjustments, potentially, in order to, I guess, stretch the budget. I'd be interested in more detail on that. Thank you. Thank you. I've also got Alex Blithe on an screen he may want to add a little bit more to that, but tenure mix wise, obviously, it's the Scottish Government aspiration that a cross or a grant funded program that 70% should be social rent and 30% for mid-market rent. For each, obviously, the rents are lower for social rent, so therefore, your capacity to borrow and the amount that can be used to repay that limits the amount of borrowing, so therefore, there's more grant funding required in order to deliver a home and keep it at a sustainable rent level. For mid-market rent, that's slightly different, that rents are slightly higher, and therefore, the benchmark for grant funding is slightly lower, so you can deliver more homes, you know, for the same pot of money, you can deliver more mid-market for social rent. Another point also is a lot of the RSL partners use their mid-market rent portfolios to subsidize, to cross subsidize their social rent portfolios as well, so for us, obviously, we look at it as a site-by-site case-by-case, but ideally, that's with that aspiration of 70/30 in the background, but there is challenges around the capacity for grant funding for that, but Alex, I don't know if you'd like to add anything more at this stage. Thanks Lisa. I think that was a very similar thing, the only thing I want to add in just to clarifying on the additions between the grant funding amount per unit. With a social rent home, you're looking at around 90,000, and in some instances, more than that, closer to 100,000 per unit. With mid-market rent, you're looking at between 55,000 to 65,000 per unit, so you can see how the grant funding could be stretched a bit further with mid-market rent homes. Thank you. I have Councillor POGSON and Councillor MOMFISH and Councillor PARCA in that order. Councillor POGSON. Just before I thought, I thought, Convenor, that there was a second question put by Councillor DOBBING, I think, to be asked about compromises around, yeah, just before I... I was wondering if I was being penalised for the square house. I don't know what the punishment is yet. No, sorry. I was temporarily distracted. I do apologise. Thank you, Hazel. Thank you, Convenor. I can start to answer that and David can come in if there's anything else, but in terms of the work to the specification, we have a very ambitious specification, and there may be... we may have the ability to adjust some of the components within that and still meet net zero, so it could be things like looking at the type of windows we install, looking to the market for newer solutions that will help us achieve those ambitions, but at a lower cost. We also need to look at other aspects such as making our buildings more efficient, potentially. We tend to have a smaller number of homes around a stair core, so there are things within the realms of the building as a whole that we can look at as well, but not moving away from the ambition to meet those net zero ready targets. Thank you. I hope that answers all your questions, Councillor DOBBING, to your satisfaction, and moving on Councillor Poggson. You say I actually just want to return to the topic around the bid market rent and tenure mix just to really... my question was answered previously, but just to... I mean, I appreciate that we have to compromise around wherever we can compromise in this, and I'd be interested in that, the kind of leveraging options that if we're doing putting in more mid-market rent than that leverages more options around the social rent as well, how that works. I mean, just to state the obvious, we are able to help fewer of those of our citizens who are in the greatest need, those who are in the greatest need, those who are least able to afford their tendencies, clearly are the ones that need the social rent. I'm not saying that mid-market rent doesn't meet a need and isn't valuable in its own way, but it means if we're shifting the balance to MMR, we're doing less to help those of us, citizens in the greatest need, and that is obviously a concern to us. So, you know, I'd really want to know more about how that was leveraging to kind of maximize those options for those in greatest need. Thanks. Thank you, Councillor Poggson. Lisa, I'm happy again to come in and just just start on that. I think you're absolutely right. It's a major challenge, and I suppose we will always seek to maximize the number of social rent that we can get on site. That is something we need to do, but it's important just to note to commit either the scale of that and what the impact could be. So, you know, the presentation touched on, you can get 55% more homes through mid-market, but there is questions around exactly that balance. What I would say as well is, obviously, we've got the acquisitions and disposal program as well, so we are seeking to purchase second-hand homes for social rent, so that doesn't require grant funding because we can leave from the small number of disposos that we're doing, and we're able to do that. So, there are other elements and opportunities where we're seeking to still increase social rent, wherever possible, and it is going to be site-by-site case-by-case around this. What I would just say as well is, we're actually hoping to bring in for one of the briefings to the Housing Committee in the coming months on mid-market, doing a bit of a deeper dive exactly what it is and how it's delivered across the city as well, so hopefully that would help inform a little bit more going forward. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. Councillor Mumford, you're next. Thanks, Carina. So, I'm only an occasional visitor to this committee, so apologies if this is a very basic question, but this seems very bad and very worrying, but in the report, the only recommendations we've got, they're largely noting, other than around the commuted sums, which are really welcome, and the next steps are largely around proceeding as we are trying to mitigate some of the problems. So, I suppose my question is, as I'm sure we've all been grappling with, what's the solution? Is it simply that we just need more money from Scottish government? Do some of the suggestions actually solve that problem? So, looking at the new procurement approach, looking in changing tenure delivery? Are there big ideas that aren't in this report either because they're not politically viable? What are other local authorities doing? Is there anything we're not thinking about that we really need to change approach, if it looks like that, just more money isn't going to happen? Thanks. If I can just add to your question, Councillor Mumford, because I do know that Council officers have taken ideas to the Scottish government, and maybe as part of the answer to your question, officers could tell me what kind of reception they've had to the ideas that we've taken to the Scottish Government. Thank you. I'll maybe start convener and David Lisa might want to add. I mean, I think we as officers recognise that the Scottish Government has had to make some very hard financial choices, and what you see in the report today is evidence to that. Ministers have also been very clear, they're looking for innovation here, so if the cupboard is bare, then what can be done to try and bring new forms of financial approaches, particularly to the delivery of affordable housing, rather than market housing. We have done, so Edinburgh has a very strong track record of innovation in this area from National Housing Trust to a wide range of other mechanisms, and we have had a number of discussions myself, David, Derek, Lisa, our colleagues at Patel have taken ideas. I think it's fair to say they're still under discussion with Scottish Government officials, and I would hope the new ministerial team in the Government is kind of eager to hear those proposals, because inevitably there will be a degree of risk. So, for example, one of the ideas we've been trying to explore is whether we might look at retention of council tax, effectively hypothesising council tax for a period, so that we could keep it to achieve closing some of these gaps in the viability of schemes. Now, that's kind of not the way that council tax funding works. Our argument has been, well, actually, if you get these schemes away, at some point there's going to be additional receipts. If you don't get them away, there's going to be nothing, so that there is additionality there to be got, but it does require kind of thinking through existing financial arrangements in a new way. I think there are, I mean, inevitably, some civil servants really, really keen to explore those, but it's challenging. So, I think we're trying, but we're not there yet is my probably best diplomatic answer I can give, David, I don't know whether you want to add to that. I don't think there's lots of other kind of things we're talking about as well, but they all come down to the same thing, that doing things differently, there's new risks, and how are those risks then managed and offset, and obviously if that's a combination of a council taking a risk and Scottish government managing some of that, that's a lot more power to both of everyone involved. I think, sorry, just to add to that, I think somebody, maybe Councillor Parker, said something about this in the context of the council's budget process, because David's point about risk, which is that we have taken some risk in these areas, but will members consider taking further risk at a time when clearly our own balance sheet is so challenged, and I think that question is going to be very important in the next six months. Thank you, factual, if not particularly cheerful. No, no, it's important. Factual, Councillor Parker. Yeah, thank you. I think lots of my questions have kind of been answered, but I did want to come back to this issue of changes to specifications, and I guess we've spoken about net zero, but I'm also wondering things like specifications around accessible homes, which typically more expensive, and I'm just wondering whether there is an impact on delivery of those as part of this, and I guess if we are going to be revising specifications for net zero or accessibility, whatever it is, how will that be fed back at committee? Is that David or David? I mean, I think the first thing to say is in this area of work where we're not trying to, if you like, reduce specifications around accessibility or things like that, there are probably a wide range of things that don't impact on quality whatsoever, but are just different ways of doing things, or even for example, Hazel mentioned smaller sites, where if we're building, say, 400 homes and we go to the market and ask for a price for that, we'll get a better price than if we go for the site for, say, 25 homes, so even though they might be built exactly the same way. So the whole range of things we're looking at in terms of optimising to make sure that we basically take the right thing to the market and get the best price possible. In terms of net zero, it's a similar thing. There's just lots of different technologies and things out there, and some of them are expensive, some of them less so, and we're waiting to see which ones will become probably the more commonly used as other technologies fall away, and we're trying to work our way through that. We will provide regular update to this committee and through briefing on where our design specification is going and what we're building. So that won't be our, we're going to change all of this next week and we'll bring a report on it, that will be an iterative process and we will keep coming back as we adjust that. Thank you. Just a little one. Councilor Parker, before I take Councillor Fullerton? Yeah, just Councillor Parker. Yeah, thanks. Just to confirm, I assume there's a relationship with Planning Committee as part of this as well, and they will also be looped in. Is that right? Yes, although, again, some of these, some of the things we're looking at wouldn't necessarily have an impact on planning per se, you know, they're kind of more detailed to things, but we will continue to make sure that the product that we're working to or designing is compliant with aspirations of the Council in terms of the housing that you want to be building and the planning standards that the Planning Committee are putting in place. Thank you. Councillor Fullerton? Yeah, thanks. Get 55 in the site till Council on site and property is a project that was first meted for housing years ago, and it's been on the cards for some time as they don't know, and has now been stalled. It's an ideal fairly large site for mixed use housing and community use, but in site help room has have been screaming out now for a long long time. There's not enough community space for them to carry out their activities, so they also have been living under the threat of Gate 55 closing because it's not fit for purpose, and it's got asbestos in it and a big part of it, so it's one of the parts that's been used. So, my question is, is this one of the projects that will go forward before or long? Sorry, is it one of the projects that will... I think in terms of the lists that we looked at and the categories, it's probably not one that has grand allocated to or a detailed design, it is unfortunate in that category, as with a lot of sites where it's difficult to know exactly what to do with it because the costs we've had back on, but some specific sites have been very high and therefore difficult to deliver within benchmark, and there is obviously a, as you pointed out, a really critical interface between existing assets that might have been removed for housing, but the housing project would have been able to put something else back in place that is fit for purpose, and obviously with that scheme, there was obviously early years, facilities and things we were looking to do there. So, it's certainly not off the table, but as with a lot of these things, unfortunately, we are trying to find new ways to come back with the same scheme, essentially, and find a way of delivering it, but at the moment, along with others, we don't have an answer to that one right now. Maybe the only other thing I would say is in terms of why there was their hills work, we are looking at building a program there and looking at working with the community in relation to the community assets, appreciate from your ward that kind of goes into site hill as well, and where some of the services need to be provided, but we'll keep working on that. Thank you for that, David, but you will appreciate site hill and park edger. We've found a way from Vista Hills. Thank you. Councillor Jones. Thank you, Convena, and I wanted just to pursue the report that's coming, I think, from planning on the community's sums, and I'm just not clear about why there's a report because I thought there was a specific criteria for all those community sums. Is that a fund that the commuted sum, and how much actually is in that? I mean, my understanding is that as soon as these funds are just used as and when they become available. I mean, I'm happy to take it. I don't know if Alex wants to come in first. Yes, so the commuted sums funding part is in the millions. However, the way that commuted sums are taken, they're paid in lieu of affordable housing. And previously, some of the sums have been restricted to the same amount of adjacent ward, so that's usually set out within the sections when you find legal agreement. That's not the case for all sums. So the reason we're taking the support to planning command is to seek agreement in principle that where there is no restriction running to the legal agreement that those sums could be used out with both the same ward, so that we can move forward the affordable housing policy projects, which we're looking to approve if possible this year with that additional funding. Very quick follow up. I mean, how much is it actually a fund as such, and how much is in it? So there's a report which was taken to planning committee last year, which sets out the amounts of detail back to that report. I can do that just now and I'll come back to you. I think Alex will correct me if I'm wrong. I'll maybe David will correct me if I'm wrong. I think there is an existing sum, but obviously what happens to the planning process, I'm sure members are aware of this, is that sometimes a developer will say, Look, we can't do this on site because therefore we'll give you some funding. So it's often scheme by scheme, and as Alex says that there are existing restrictions, what we're after is more flexibility. So I think there are effectively some accumulated funds, Alex, I'm right, and we just need to check what kind of territory we're in and we can do that and let members know, but then it's moving forward. If we apply a new approach, then money would come planning application by planning application, and obviously the amount of money would depend on the size of the scheme. So effectively, better flexibility would increase our ability to use whatever commuted sums funds are available because they would be less likely to be restricted by the legislation. Yes, albeit Council policy tends to be that we want on-site affordable, so we get 10-year mix in that way, but where commuted sums are agreed to by members, then I think the idea is to get exactly the flexibility that you suggest. Thank you. I don't see any more questions, so that takes us on to formally moving the report, which I am going to do, and I note, and you'll have noted that we have a submitted an addendum, and I just want to briefly explain why the addendum, and as we've heard from officers and from the presentation, there are many ways in which we're seeking to mitigate what is really a very unfortunate set of circumstances, and it seemed to me that it would be useful to have all that effectively in one place, but also reported back to this committee regularly so that we're acquainted with the kinds of innovative ideas, some of which we've touched on, such as use of commuted sums, innovative financial models, modern methods of construction, et cetera, will all come back to us in the form of a report on new financial approaches, which would then enable us to continue to scrutinize those kinds of activities. So that's by way of formally moving the report with the administration addendum. I note that the Liberal Democrat group have also submitted an addendum, which in many ways says, we're saying many of the same things, but I would propose to accept that addendum. So do I have a seconder for the motion as subject to those two addender? Happy to second convene, thank you. Can I have a proposal for the Liberal Democrat addendum please? That would be me, thank you very much. The reason for bringing this addendum was to actually really, I think, support the officers here. I've been on this committee for two years, and I think at each stage within the year, particularly over HR, A, SHIP, you name it, the support, the knowledge that they have has been invaluable. And I think when I read this report, I felt that this needed strengthening at committee level. So that is the reason why I have brought this. It doesn't make good reading in the terms that it's very sobering. And I do think, as a committee and as a council, we have to try and do our bit in raising that profile. You'll note at the end of this addendum, I have asked the convener to write, and I will repeat it, in strongest and robust terms, because the amount of dialogue that's been had but not been listened to has been absolutely the echoes of silence of silence. And we have to keep trying to make the position fit the changes in circumstances. So back in November, we declared a housing emergency. We are now into May. The numbers in temporary accommodation have increased. Therefore, I think it is time to review and ask the Scottish Government to review its original stance about not declaring a housing emergency, particularly on the back of this report, but also about reviewing funding options. Now, we've heard a lot in the next steps about all the innovation that's going to be done and the different ways that council officers are going to try and reach out. But we can't do this on our own. And I just feel as a committee, we need to be sending this loud and clear to the Scottish Government. We do need help, but we need you to acknowledge the emergency in the first instance. And that's why I'd wash it and I propose the addendum. Thank you. Do I have a second? Formally. Thank you, Councillor Bennett. Being a pedant, I should have asked that in our addendum, it talks about upmost. When clearly, it should read utmost. That satisfies me. We can make that tiny little change. Thank you. I know. So we have, can we now open up to any debate, Councillor Parker? Thank you. It is a tiny thing. I just wanted to flag within your addendum. I wondered if you would consider just a slight verbal adjustment to your second paragraph, just to specify to deliver affordable and social homes, just to make that point really clear, given the absolute need for social housing, in addition to affordable homes more broadly, but otherwise, I'm very supportive of your addendum. Thanks. Thank you. I'd be more than happy to include that. Thank you, but that's a helpful adjustment. Thank you. Councillor Dobbin. Yes, I don't know if this is for debate or for us to move our position, which is not in line with your own convener. Thank you. So I invite you, Councillor Dobbin, to move that position, not the sound surprised, but yes. So in terms of the administration amendment, I think we understand that and obviously accept that. It's a very straightforward and sensible addendum to the excellent report, difficult report. But we spoke about this yesterday in the spokesperson's call. I expressed my thoughts this morning in terms of the Liberal Democrat, excuse me, addendum. I don't really see the need for it. The points of substance seem to me to be covered in the administration addendum. So my objections to the addendum and convener, if you're inclined to accept this, my objections relate really to the last paragraph first. They're obvious. I don't think we need the gratuitous Scottish Government bashing and committee, referring to the tone being asked. Secondly, and probably most materially, I don't know if we've got a lot of support from my first point, but the second point, more materially, we have a new first minister, a new deputy first minister. The first minister has indicated he wants to take a different approach. So I doubt that strongest and most robust expression of the ask will necessarily generate the most positive response. If you do accept the then the Liberal Democrat, then the full convener, be helpful for committee members to receive a copy of the letter so that we can judge that the strongest and most robust terms have been used. Those terms, of course, are somewhat subjective. Your robust may be somewhat different from my robust. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I don't think it's appropriate for the committee to prescribe how you as a convener should write to the Scottish Government on this. I prefer to accept your judgment in how to go about achieving the desired outcomes. In conclusion, if you feel you must accept this addendum, we would support it if it ends after convey this to the Scottish Government. Thank you. Thank you. So, do I lose? Can I second? Of course, I'm terribly sorry. Don't be sorry at all. Keeping me right. Obviously, despite the fact that this report does, as we've discussed, make difficult reading, I think that it's important to point out that the Scottish Government, over the last 13 years, has a fantastic record on social and affordable houses and provision of social and affordable houses. 10,000 per year, 130,000 over the last 13 years, which is twice the amount per capita than has been provided or built down in England and Wales, which I think is a remarkable achievement. That doesn't take away from the fact that this is difficult and we've announced the housing emergency and we want to make sure that we're putting as much pressure on the Scottish Government to heed those calls as it's possible and we've always been welcome to those calls. But I do agree with my colleague, Councillor Doman, that the tone of the Liberal Democrat, I mean, it's just totally unnecessary. And one of the first acts, I feel a bit like a broken record saying this because I've said it a few times before in committee. But one of the first acts, and let's not forget this, of the Liberal Democrats when the entered coalition government in 2010, was to cut the house building budget by 35 percent and the social housing investment by 44 percent. Now, we aren't unique in Edinburgh and Scotland or in the UK in facing a housing emergency. There's a housing emergency across all of these islands and there's been a 16 percent reported recently, a 16 percent rise in homelessness in England. England's housing crisis is going to push a lot of local authorities into bankruptcy because of the increasing costs of emergency accommodation, something that we face here as well. And that's obviously a tragic for those families that are involved and for the number of councils across England that are in the process of or are declaring bankruptcy as tragic. So in that context, you would have expected the UK government to come forward with more capital expenditure. And their opportunity to do that in the budget in March was there to be taken. And in the run up to that, the Scottish government said any additional capital expenditure that comes out of the budget will be allocated to housing and there was nothing forthcoming from the UK government. Now, keep in mind that this is a UK government that does not face the same budget through restrictions as the Scottish government. They don't have a budget through restrictions. All in ideological crusade against expenditure and the deficit. So what I would say is we are happy to work with colleagues when they come forward in this committee as we've shown with reasonable demands on the Scottish government. But we don't welcome working with colleagues and we won't accept wording and addendums that come from a place of just unnecessary tone of party politics that really, and these issues that are really serious where we're facing a housing crisis should be kept out of the debate and discussion. Thank you, Councillor Hislott. So in terms of, I think now it's open to me to invite debate. So I'll do that now. Open up for debate and contributions. I don't have any, so I'll summarise in that case. I think that, I suppose we've already referred to the fact that terms are highly subjective. And in terms of the, let's look at it, the Liberal Democrat addendum, strong and robust is what I hope I am pretty well all the time, particularly in relation to this housing emergency that we're facing. And I say that unashamedly because, and I know we all share this, we all share the concern about the 5,000 households who are in temporary accommodation tonight. And I recognise that, you know, we could argue till the cows come home about Westminster budget versus Scottish government budget. But to me, and I've said this in the Chamber, it boils down to priorities. And I think that in terms of not only the enhancement of human life, but the basic fundamentals for survival, having a home is one of the three fundamentals along with food and clothing, so having somewhere to live. And for that reason, and this is subjective, I meet regularly with the Housing Minister, and I believe have cordial working relationships with him and with his officers. And I think that on both sides, so to speak, we've been strong and robust, but it's in defence of the people who are tonight in this city in temporary accommodation. So I'm more than happy to approach the Scottish government, recognising that there have been changes and hoping that those changes will bring about the kinds of changes that we need in this city in order to make it a fairer city. And that's, for those reasons, I would want to accept the Liberal-Democrat Addendum. Thank you. And I think, Jamie, that will take us to... Yeah, I guess just to confirm that, because of the Dobbins, and because of his self that you just pressed your amendment in full, so that would be to accept the recommendations, the administration's in, and the Liberal-Democrat Group Addendum, up to the words, convey this to the Scottish government. Is that right? Yes. If I understand it correctly, you're... Sorry, it was quite faint. Sorry, it's my earsight. I'll move close to the microphone. So in terms of the Liberal-Democrat Group Addendum, you're accepting all of it apart from... Is it just the final few words in the strongest and most robust terms, or is it the entire paragraph? Finishing it conveyors to the Scottish government. I think she conveys just especially. Okay. Noting that, well, I appreciate that the convener can use strong and robust terms. She is committing to strongest and most robust terms. The whole last paragraph, I think. Removing the whole last paragraph, okay. Okay, thanks for that clarification. So we have two possessions, motion moved by kinds of the March 2nd to be Councillor Perksen, which agrees the recommendations in the report. The administration dendum is circulated on the Liberal-Democrat Group Addendum, which is moved by Councillor Flannery, seconded by Councillor Bennett. Against that we have an S&P amendment, move by Councillor Dobbins, seconded by Councillor Haslop, which agrees the recommendations in the report. The administration group addendum and the Liberal-Democrat Group addendum with the exception of the final paragraph. Could I take the votes firstly for the S&P group amendment, please? That's three and for the motion, please. That's it, the motion is carried. Thank you, Jamie, give you a second to breathe. Oh, Councillor Mumford, your hands. Oh, as is Councillor Bennett, are you going to swap with Councillor Caldwell? Yeah, thank you very much. It's been good to have you on board temporarily and we look forward to seeing you at the next committee. Thank you. Councillor Mumford, did you have your hand up? No, thank you. Okay, that takes you on to item 7.5, review of the missing share scheme and emergency building safety fees. This is a report by the executive director of place and administration amendment and a green group amendment have been circulated and Jackie Timmons will speak to the report. Thank you. First of all, can I offer my apologies to convene a committee for the lateness of the report? It was my fault. I wrote it for finance at the end of June and realised it had to come to the parent committee first, so that's my apologies for the lateness and it didn't get to APM. Just introduced the report, shared a peer service objectives, art and college support, tenement owners to arrange and carry out common repairs. Over nine years of the service, we've created and developed tools and schemes and to help remove the blockers which owners face when trying to arrange works privately. The context in Edinburgh is that many tenements don't have property factors to help them manage this, so it's down to the private owners to go through the process. So this report brings the committee a recommendation to consider increasing the upper threshold of the missing share application and limit to potentially remove the blocker that the current £20,000 limit creates only in exceptional circumstances where a dangerous building notice has been served by the council. It's not a budget she asks, the scheme is cost neutral, the finance risk to the council is in relation to the debt created by the payment that we would make for that missing share owner. All payments made by the council are recoverable for owners. The consequences of not increasing the limit are that the council and the situation where a dangerous building notice of a tenement has been served is that the council may be put in the position where it must act in default of owners and carry out repairs and therefore taking on the risk of recovering the debt for all owners in that tenement and obviously that financial risk is much higher. So that's introduction to the report. Thank you. Take any questions? Thank you. I am going to open up for questions and at the end of that I'm going to make a proposal. So questions please. And I don't see any questions. Oh, sorry. Councillor Caldwell. Thank you, Supervisor. Apologies to start with a procedural point. The Greens addendum raised a valid question in itself about the council's sort of six-month rule. So it's just to get advice from officers on what's a budget decision of being reviewed here actually means. Thank you. Thank you. They will give that but we discussed that and since this isn't this policy and the amount was set not under the recent budget motion that we agreed. That's a clumsy way of saying so it was set completely separately. I think that's the case but Jamie will confirm that or not. Yeah, I mean, I think as the convener said this particular case it wasn't set as part of the council budget. So I don't think it does fall off the six-month rule. I think in any case the recommendations in the report were recommending that committee make a determination and that something came back. So I think even if it did we wouldn't have an issue with the report recommendations as they stood. Thank you Jamie. I hope that clears up that particular point but we did of course raise it. Councillor Monford, I saw you first and then I see you, Councillor Parker. Thank you. Thanks for this. I've got a couple of questions. One, I suppose, is relating to that questionnaire and around timings and if we don't decide anything today what does that mean? If it was originally to come to F&R in June and I suppose related to that what prompted this report why is it coming now? So questions around that and then a couple of questions just on the money side. So you've been clear that this is about the financial impact would be about increasing, about the debt owed to Council. I'm a little confused about the 39% of applications result in payment by the Council. Do we know how many of those payments were then repaid because presumably if we can't contact people to get them to pay in the first place how do we get the debt out of them and then a question around the 20,000 pounds, whether that's still appropriate and again why are we revisiting that presumably costs of repairs have increased massively since 2017? Is it in reflection of that? Thanks. Thank you. Do you want to quickly respond, Jackie? Yep. So the report is coming now because we are in a situation in Edinburgh where we have a dangerous building notice on a tenement and so this has brought it to attention. It's an exceptional circumstances for this tenement and it's the third, the report has been paid by for missing shares and 13% and I think he understood that part of the report because the question was over how do we get money out of for two-day recovery? Sorry, was it Councilman Purd? So yeah, just do we have a sense of how when the Councillors had to step in how often we've been able to then recover that because you said there wasn't a financial impact but because it's going to, you know, becomes debt but obviously that can be a financial impact if we don't recover it? Yeah, sorry. So it follows the corporate debt policy, some to debt policy and its owners have at the moment four years to repay a debt to the council if they get a payment plan approved through debt recovery and that's a lashes art. Obviously we'd like them to find funding elsewhere and then it's gasketed if a parent plan is defaulted on or an owner doesn't say it went up then it's escalated through the debt recovery slusters taking the court to get a decree and often an ambition is served on the owner and that secures our debt for 20 years. It's registered on their title deeds right out of Scotland so we shouldn't have to write that debt off, it's always going to be pursued. Thank you, Councillor Parker. Thank you, that's useful. I'm sorry to come back to the point that Councillor CORD I'll raise but I did just want to read out a sentence of the report at 3.3 which says, At the Council budget meeting on the 22nd of February 2024 the administrative expenses rate was set at 10% of the emergency makes a building cost. So I'm just wondering if the report says that it was set in that meeting and what context are we saying that it wasn't? Can I just come into that? It's set, the whole fees and charges cost for the council is set every year and it's just the same 10% that I was set when it came into, you know, sort of eight, nine years ago. So it's just to re-approve, to suppose that the list of fees and charges, if that makes sense? I wonder if I could step in, Councillor Parker, just to try and resolve this because, you know, as you know, we'd have to look more closely into that but as you know, in circumstances where there are exceptional challenges, not, that's the wrong word, but pressure circumstances, thank you, then, you know, it's possible to allow a report within the six months rule. But setting that aside just for the moment, what, I know that many members of committee were unhappy with the fact that this report came so very late, not least, well, mainly because we're an active and interested committee and we want to have time to be able to scrutinise these reports, which is why I made the decision to retain this on the agenda so that you could all ask questions. But what I'm proposing is that given that there's effectively no policy change, that the most appropriate committee to agree an increased threshold, if it considers it within the six month rule to be urgent, then the most appropriate committee is finance and resources. Consequently, I would propose that this report goes direct to the next finance and resources committee for its consideration. Thank you, Jamie, that's extremely important. One of the requests in the Green Amendment was an important one, which was for a briefing, and I think that's always helpful. So I would want to retain that, if you like, and ask for a briefing, but the report would go to finance and resources. I hope that makes sense, Councillor Parker. Yeah, thank you. I think that would be sensible and welcome and just for clarity, that would be without your amendment attached to it. I should have made that clear. Thank you yet again. Absolutely. Yeah, I would withdraw our amendment. Can I just add briefly the company that if members are minded to remit this to finance and resources, we can make clear the material change in circumstances that would be suitable grounds for members to consider this within that period. I don't know when the next F&R is, but there are. I think as members know, there is a degree of urgency for us to review this, because there are members of the public eagerly awaiting this decision. So I think we would probably try and set out why we believe there to have been a material change, and that would, if you like, address that issue once F&R consider it. Thank you, and that meeting is on the 20th of the June. I've just had that confirmed. Councillor MONTH, do your hands be not for well? Thank you. I think that's a sensible suggestion. I suppose my question, and this is as a member of F&R Committee as well, to work out exactly what we will be getting. I think Paul saying we'll get some additional context is really helpful, but I'm unclear from this report if we are instructing officers to do additional work in advance of that F&R meeting, because it's a little confusing in that this committee is saying we'll agree that things should be revisited, but it will be F&R deciding the actual numbers. So I just want to check, I suppose, from a governance point of view that if we don't pass these recommendations today because of what you're suggesting, that officers will still do the work that F&R are required, and that F&R are unable to make that decision, even though it's not the parent committee. Thanks. If I can just respond to that as an important question, and it may be that, for example, some of the terms that are contained in both your amendment and ours, by ours, I mean the administration's, that they might be included at F&R. So do you see what I mean, that each of our groups would take those to be considered when it comes to F&R, particularly mine because it are ours rather, because it does contain, I think, figures. So I hope that helps and makes sense. Councillor Dobbins, is that you waving your pen or do you want to come in? Just maybe to add comment, I mean obviously in the recommendation of this report, because as Jackie said, it's not our normal practice to send this so late, so apologies for that. But in effect, the recommendation asks questions, whether it's appropriate, whether it's appropriate, if it considers, I think we would probably prefer as officers to make a suggestion in the recommendations, drawing on what we've heard from elected members today, and then members at F&R, Councillor Mumford have got something to kind of work with, if you see what I mean, rather than being asked to question in the report. So that's probably what we would try and do with F&R, if that makes sense. I see Councillor Mumford nodding, so I think that's helpful. Councillor Dobbins. Yes, thank you. I just wonder if it'd be helpful if you could clarify the circumstances around material change in the six-month rule as perceived. And if it's around anchor field, what are the implications either to the council or to the residents of changes in the thresholds? Okay, do you want to come in on that? So the change in the threshold will mean that, so at the moment it's £20,000, if an application comes in for, say, £60,000, then we can only approve it to £20,000. We could pay the £20,000 if the application got approved. The excess of that is expected to be paid by the owners and then to recover that money from that missing, missing shear owner, so that puts the burden on them. So that could be a blocker for them to actually proceed to do that appears privately, which is what we're trying to remove the blockers for them to carry on with the work and keep control of the project themselves rather than the council do it in near and default. I suppose, Jackie, please correct me if I'm wrong, at the moment the policy is pretty black and white and what this is suggesting is that there may well be exceptional circumstances where we want to show a bit of flexibility and if show then how could we codify that policy so that we can have a bit more flexibility as this report is suggesting. Thank you, I think that's very helpful and clarifies a lot, thank you. Thank you, so I'm looking around the room for agreement that this is a sensible approach to this particular report, so I'm seeing nods, yeah, that's fine, thank you very much and thank you, Jackie. I think just to clarify the decision there, I think what committee is being asked to do is to note the report and to note that it will be resubmitted, it won't be a committee referral in the normal sense, it will be resubmitted with that additional information with the justification around the six month rule and the material changing of circumstances and will agree the entry and briefing for both committees. Thank you, oh, yeah, Council is coming. Sorry, just in the light of what Jamie's just said and given that the next committee is not until August, I'm just wondering if this needs to be taken sooner than that somehow. We resubmitted to financial resources committee which is on the 25th of June. And they were the committee in any case who would make the decision about the thresholds because that's not within our gift, so it makes logical sense. Okay, I hope that's all clear, thank you very much and moving on. So that then takes you to section eight, which is routine decisions, item 8.1 is set of cool assurance on service performance, this is a report by the executive director of place, a liberal Democrat group of dentists, I'm in a green group of dentists have been circulated and Derek McGowan will introduce the report. Thank you. Committee will be aware this is the first of this style of report. It's very full, there's a lot of appendices in there to try and give you a full range of data on the service. Apart from that, which I think it's 10 appendices, I just wanted to draw attention to a separate part of the report which is around the development of the data culture which I've also discussed here and that's contained at 4.4 just to make sure that might not get missed in amongst discussion about it performance itself, thanks. Happy to answer any questions. Thank you, Derek. Now, do we have any questions? I'm looking around the room. Councillor Dobbins then. Sorry, Councillor Parker, Councillor Robin, Councillor Caldwell in that order. Thank you and thank you for the report. I think this is a really good starting point for these. Well, come on to that one, yes, we addendum. I wanted to look at the appendix on accessible homes and which is appendix 9 and the data seems to show quite a major reduction in the number of major adaptations being followed from council homes compared to pre-pandemic times. So, for example, there were 209 major adaptations completed in 2016 in 2017 and only 87 in 2023, 2024 and then the same in sort of non-major adaptations as well. So, in the PRS, there were 220 in 2016, 2017 and then only 173 in 2023, 24 but interestingly within RSLs, the numbers have increased. So, we've had 317 in RSL partners and 349, most recently. So, there's a changing picture in other words, which is that within the council and within the PRS, where the council has a role in terms of supporting adaptations being fitted. We've seen a major reduction, but in RSL partners, we've seen an increase and I just wondered if officers have any commentary on that. Thank you. I'll be completely frank. I think we need to look into this more. I think it's been really helpful to bring the information together. I think the recommendation that we develop commentary will exactly tease all of that out as we move forward and what I would say is it's a demand-led service. As you know, so obviously people come forward requesting and from that point then obviously we move forward as an occupational therapist assessment that moves forward into approvals and completions as well. So, yeah, I think that's the reality but it is important to look at that and understand that trend but it certainly is demand-led so that's what we're working from but maybe digging a bit deeper and understanding at that point of contact if there's more information would be helpful. Time to follow up, which I guess is, and this is probably a question for us to ponder and think about but, you know, is how do we know that we're capturing demand adequately because I would be surprised, you know, that is a major reduction. That's over half less over the space of a very short number of years and that, to me, jumps out as a concern. Do you want to comment on that, Lisa, or just... I suppose all it says agree and I think we're happy to look into it and come back with more information on the next report. Thank you. Thank you very much. Then Councillor Dobbins, if you're ready and then I'll take Councillor Colle as well. Yes, thank you. First of all, just like to thank officers for the report which is a tremendous leap forward. Good step forward on the way and I say, I don't give it whole hearted endorsement because I've got a whole list of questions which I'm not going to trouble the committee with. Once I understand the answer to my question, there's a lot of stuff that I don't quite understand. I think it's ending the right way. The one thing I did want to talk a little bit about is, and I think it's a penny, sure enough, four under damp and mold, if I'm not enough, average time to complete. I assume this is a kind of historic record and that we'll be using a new methodology going forward as referenced further up. For me, average time to complete as presented here, I understand that as a job's been raised and it's then been closed. Rather than as per a new process, a job gets raised and finally gets closed at satisfaction of attendance. And I say that in the context of one of the people I've supported, who first reported in 2014, and finally was moved into 2023. So to me, that's the case of repair. The issue comes back, so it's multiple cases rather than we fix the problem. I just wanted to check that my understanding of the average time to complete will in future be based upon 10 sign off. Sarah, do you want to comment on that? Yes, thank you. I think there's two measures here, so I think there's a measure which is when we have closed the repair's works off on our system, so based on the works that have been specified that are acquired and it is our assessment that those have been complete. And then in the new process, moving forward, which kicked in on the 1st of April, so it'll be June before we start to see this coming through. But the housing officers who are now in place in the dampness team will be making an eight-week call to tenants to check that they are satisfied, that the works are complete and they're satisfied, that they've been completed to the standard that they would expect and there's no recurrence, so we will be recording the outcome of that. So what I would anticipate will be recording, how reporting is the time scale for the works being complete and the satisfaction of the tenant that the works have been completed. So I'm using satisfaction too many times. The tenant has confirmed that the works have been completed to their satisfaction, but the measure and the system will report the time from the job being raised to the works being carried out. But we'll have an additional measure moving forward which will give us that report on feedback from tenants, which is to say we should start to get through in June, July time. Thank you. My concern is the quality of work when the jobs closed. And if we're able to use data to identify where the contractor has failed or not done satisfied to job, then that would be very helpful. The greed and I hope is that something we could consider, Sarah? Yeah, what I'm expecting is that we'll be able to report on that very point as part of that eight-week check, so the eight-week check following completion of the works. We'll ask those questions about the quality of the work and some of those will trigger actual visits to the properties. It'll depend on the nature of the work and we'll obviously be doing some sample checks on quality. So possibly in the next cyclical report we'll be able to bring forward some stats that have some very early representation of that feedback and obviously it's a bit of a work in progress, we can find that as we go on. Thank you. I have Councillor Caldwell next and I noticed Councillor Mumford and then Councillor Poggson in that order. Thank you, Converian and thank you for the report. I must admit it's all very well in good having sort of a fire alarm sort of going off at times but if there's no firefighters at the fire station to respond to it then that is its own challenge. The data collection is one thing. But interpreting and acting on that's another and you know in some of the examples in this report I noted that in for example the North East locality has three times the amount of voids as the other localities and the South West has a higher growth in voids than other localities. So what I'm wondering is just what to get me a bit of flavour from officers about how that data is interpreted and acted upon. So there's been great strides here clearly in terms of data collection but in terms of data literacy and how we respond to that. I've just wanted to get a bit of view on if the workshops officers have been attending, etc have done that and if in future reports we'll see correlation from what we've seen in data here to improvements being very targeted. Thank you. Thank you. Can you clarify Council Caldwell, is that interested respect to voids property you mentioned there? Yes so it was just one example for example yeah yeah and voids in one area for example is that how do we interpret it as we have a separate team to interpret that data or how are we actually responding to the facts that are now in front of us have been in half before. Thank you. Thank you, thanks for the clarification. So we are doing that and we're looking at the data that we hold. Void is a good example which is why it was asking for clarification because we meet twice weekly on voids looking at the data we have understanding the issue with the northeast locality for example of understanding the issue there and we've been moving staff around from the repair side in order to target that and we can see in the data that the number of voids out there is going down and so we are able to do that and that's replicated across here. In separate four I've discussed the housing service review that's now complete and we're now moving to implement. There's a little bit of a new head of service strategy commissioning and service improvement that's a key role in terms of interpreting the data or be data policy and insights officers in there looking at to understand and identifying improvements we need to do and working with other heads of service not to achieve that so we're now getting a structure in place that will allow that more easily to be done so building the data culture and understanding of it and getting insight so in and target in the work you should become far more commonplace going forward. Thank you. Councillor MONFORD. Thank you. My question is also around data quality and voids but I suppose on the flip side of Councillor COLD was questioned so how can we how do we know we're getting the right data so I think you're obviously like comprehensively on the analysis there but at 5.1.1 we say that there's further workshops to improve our understanding of the end-to-end process and how we can extract relevant data so I'm getting an implication from that that we don't currently get and we're not getting all the data we want to get so I suppose a question around that of are we getting the right data and how can we get it and then I just wanted to check on again two my interpretations of the data to check I'm right so and why that would be so on voids it seems the repairs are getting done but aren't moving from to be let into let and then it also seems like we've got some very small numbers of long-term voids being let on the on the let's by time to let section why would why would that be so I guess checking that I've got those interpretations right and what we're doing about those thanks thanks three yourself can we thank councilor Mumford in terms of quality of data and 5.1.1 really what I'm referring to there that's maybe could have been clear is we have a housing databases and with different aspects of of the work so we're repairs gets recorded get recorded and isn't the same as writing and rental data for example and within those systems I think my assessment is there are insufficient categories identified and built into the system so that we record different steps of the system of the the process so partly that is around making sure that the the data that we have is extractable in the right level of detail in order to focus in on blockages in the system so that might be for example when the key is handed back to how long does it take us to get to repairs and then with each member of the repairs team and then handed back so we don't have the um it's a bit of a cliched word unfortunately but the granularity of the data is what we're looking to improve and that's where we're working um it's hard and we're working with IT colleagues in order to be able to achieve that and and the vendor um in terms of the the specific question around the data I'll try and find it I think the the voids data that we have shows that um if I can find the right one um obviously total void numbers are going down and the length of time properties have been void has been a pretty good reduction in properties that are void over 18 months I think that's on page 188 so we can show the data there shows that across all those four markers that the four time periods it would record then we can see they're going down some more steeply than others but but nonetheless that's the key stats the data we have and there's been a big push on the void data that is over uh the void properties rather that are over um 18 months they are properties that require a lot of work probably a asbestos work fire damaged um asbestos for example so by the varying nature they take longer to complete um so we're working through them as we heard earlier that means that the average time to delay increases as they come back on because it's used the data but but um I hope that answers your question I didn't get it all captured but I hope that answers I see councilman for this nodding so um I take it to be the case thank you councillor pogson thank you um yes I want to ask again about the issue I raised before the voids unable to be let um and forgive me if there's more detail gone into the report since I last raised this and I'm not seeing it forgive me but um so we're saying there's a significant number of properties that aren't able to be let for various reasons and I I want to be assured that that is you know genuinely the case because there's three reasons here one is that you know we we are correctly criticized for the number of empty properties that there are perceived or believed to be in our in our stock whilst we've got all five thousand households in temporary accommodation so you know if we're saying well quite a number of those are legitimately empty for the reasons we give here you know we know that empty and they're legitimately empty I want to know that that really is a legitimate reason but the second the second reason is that we have you know all these households living in unsuitable temporary accommodation well in theory some of them could be living in these homes as temporary accommodation if you know if if we can release any of them at all for that purpose rather than lying empty and the third thing of course is that they should be generating an income for us which they're not so I just I just want to drill into this 217 properties unable to be re-let and just I would just want to know really is that is that really the case or could it let them on a short-term basis you know whilst they're being empty thank you who wants to come up with that for you Sarah yes thanks for the question Councillor Poggs and her apologies you did racist at APM and probably the the most helpful pages page 186 in the papers which has a table showing void properties unable to be laid and the categories that are categories we use on the system to to summarize you know the reasons for those properties being at that status and the four of the 217 the four big categories are properties being used for decant so we will always have a number of our properties that we we hold for decant purposes so that'll be situations where tenants have had to move out of their tenanty tone to allow us to carry out work sometimes that's in dampness work for more intrusive work that they they need to you know vacate the property for us table to carry that safely so and it's generally around 50 properties in in that category so they are being used for another purpose and there's still a a block of properties in in Northwest awaiting demolitions there's 21 of those at some point they will you know they will be demolished and they'll they'll come out of of those numbers but they are not properties that would be suitable now for us to to rely on I suppose the the the category there may be a question around is the the disposal so there's 76 properties that have been identified for disposal as part of the council's acquisition disposal policy and that's where we're seeking to consolidate the our ownership in in mixed tenure blocks and those 76 properties are at the varying stages of being going through the the the sailing process and I suppose you know just in that in terms of that wider policy generally we're we're acquiring more more properties than we are disposing so and another irregular update comes to committee on that just to see how that kind of balances is sitting and then the third category and there is it's probably worth seeing it's anticipated this area is likely to increase in terms of voids unable to be light we're going to have to watch that in terms of our risk but as the whole house retro property has been held to support whole how retrofit so those are properties that we're using for investigations to identify and specifications of work technical and intrusive works to enable us to take forward whole house retrofit and sometimes that's for investigations sometimes actually those properties could not be brought up to a standard that we could light until such times the whole house retrofit works are are progressed and as we move through the whole house retrofit program part of the strategy that we all need to think about there is how to be particularly multi-story blocks how do we take forward those works and ensure that you know tenants can remain or residents can remain you know living safely in in their homes and and how to be kind of balanced that and is is their potential there for more more decants potentially so that'll be looked at as on a blocked by block basis there'll be extensive engagement around that but those are kind of the the main categories of the that unable to be like category and you're you know you're right to challenge it i think we do need to keep challenging ourselves whether there's any in there that could can be late and it is definitely something that we we monitor on a weekly basis that's reassuring Sarah and that's an important point so particularly perhaps in the disposals we need to think about a kind of to put it a kind of cost benefit kind of analysis if you see what i mean um okay right uh i do i have any further questions i don't oh counselor Dobbyn i just like to bring Nick into the conversation if i may on homeless demographics and if i understand the numbers correctly there are five thousand households broadly in temporary accommodation if i then look at the the the chart at the bottom left of page 24 um couple with couple of children single parents female single parent male adds up to 18.3 percent which is about nine hundred and fifteen households and i find it quite i find it really interesting because from casework i would put that 18.5 percent much higher um am i breathing the numbers correctly yes you are reading the numbers correctly and there's traditionally the homelessness figures have shown that it's single people and couples that are traditionally the biggest demographic homeless people as well so what you find in this these are families that have obviously got um perhaps more than one children as well so when you're coming across household you're seeing bigger families as well we've got a shortage of affordable larger properties in the city so what you find is that larger families tend to stay longer in temporary accommodation as well but you are reading them correctly thank you um not not good but correct and so to speak thank you do i have any more questions in relation to this report it's not can i move the report formally please what i must say is welcome and i think to most of us in this committee is the drawing together of lots of different strands uh which is what we had asked for and on several occasions but also um i think the inclusion of graphics and kind of visual summaries of situations is really really helpful so i do think it's a good step forward and i won't see any more than that about it because i think that possibly from what i'm hearing most of you agree that this is a very helpful kind of um move towards uh providing those with the kind of reporting that we want and i'm sure as time goes on we'll um come up with tweaks and and adjustment speaking of which um we have uh two addenda one from the liberal democrat group and one from the green group both of which do that very thing and and tweak my view is that they tweak in a helpful way so i would propose to include both of those so i would move the report and both the green and the liberal democrat addendums do i have a seconder for that thank you convenient happy to second thank you counselor pogson do i have a proposal for the liberal democrat addendum yeah thank you convenient i'm not sure how normal it is to thank officers in uh amendment but i i think you know everyone that's spoken here has actually made the point that how appreciative committee are of the sort of a new direction officers have been taken here and we recognize that it's no small feat um you know there have been lots of conversations and this is my last ever time on committee but you know since i first started there've been so many conversations about how we know we're targeted in the right place so despite our political differences on here one thing we all agree on and our appreciative for is is having that level of transparency and data now in play the the second part of our amendment is just to drill down a little bit on what affordable housing means because we all know that affordable housing can mean 80 percent of market value could mean mid-market rental it could be social rent housing um i understand for conversations of officers that this is data that they um have so hopefully that that's something that will be able to be in there in the future as well because i think it's of great public interest to our residents so that move our addendum thank you thank you do i have a seconder add any interest of time yes you do me thank you thank you uh and a mover for the for the green addendum yeah thank you um so like others i think this report is really good um and i think the areas covered in it are broadly right um obviously i'm never actually happy so that's why i brought an addendum um no i think that before we have we've discussed the concept of this sort of report in the abstract and now we have something to actually look at i think it's really sensible that committee has a good conversation about it um i also think that there is a need for us to look at desired outcomes as part of it because i think that that is possibly the bit that we we lose by dropping the housing service improvement plan um so you know it's having a conversation about how do we pull those outcomes into this so that we're actually using the data to inform um decision making and reflect on whether the services is is going well or not um there are things i would also like to pick up on in terms of formatting and things like that um and also i think it's probably worth it's having a discussion about how we structure discussions on this item at committee going forward because i'm really conscious that the report is quite rich with data and i want to make sure that each time that we hear it um we we give adequate time to each of the different parts of it so i think there's a there's a conversation at committee can have about that too um but we should do that in a workshop environment and not hear thanks thank you do i have a seconder formally thank you thank you uh you know i can break the rules by chipping in and welcoming that suggestion i'm sure we all would do i have any any um motion to the contrary you see what i mean i don't think i do do i um so that said uh are we all agreed to prove the report and the two addenda because now i think we probably need a 10 minute comfort break so it's 25 to 3 to 4 that was wishful thinking so back at quarter two please and if we can continue please Jamie we've still got a fair bit of work to do so let's all be as concise as we can and that includes i include myself in that thank you okay eight and eight point two is housing service improvement plan this report by the executive judge of place liberal democrat group addendum and a green group addendum have been circulated um thank you Sarah buttons introducing the report thank you Sarah thank you can be there nothing to add to the report happy to seek questions thank you any quick counselor pahaka faster than the speeder like trying to be trying to be speedy um so i'm interested in section six of the report in particular which talks about the review of hra share of central support costs in the general fund and savings that have been realized as part of that and i'm just wondering um it sort of relates to the question i asked at the business bulletin or the rolling action log i can't remember which it was about conversations with the scottish government around um the permissibility of supplementing the hra from the general fund so i just wondered if those two conversations are happening in tandem because obviously they are sort of getting at the same point in the census about relationships between the two different parts of money thank you um yes sorry getting organized here sorry three yourself can be there so there are a couple of different meetings ministerial meetings happen at an national level as discussions around the hra and hra guidance is as you're probably aware is now 13 years old so what does that mean is that hra guidance still relevant still appropriate given um what's happened since then in the economy um so those discussions i think are are on go now i would i'd be i can assure you that there's discussion and there's uh some more work planned on that um through a large show as well over the next few months as well so yeah different thank you thank you so just to check the savings that are referenced in this paper are distinct from those conversations i understand that can't yeah um councilor councillor monford i see you waiting but so it doesn't become completely green i'll take councillor bruce first thank you thank you convener um i'm just going to stick my IT hat on here um talks about IT system to support servicing schedule for housing stock how long have we been looking at introducing such a system yeah i can't say precisely councillor bruce i would need to check with the colleagues who've been involved in that project but um it is one of the pieces of work that was identified early on in the housing service improvement plan in terms of needing systems to support that sort of work work load planning um so yeah it's it's been going on for some time i would say okay um when do you expect of the agreed to agree the preferred option for the system certainly in the coming months there's a piece of work that we've been um doing with iCT colleagues just to try to sort of get a sense of the the wider scale of demands um on iCT development and system improvements that are emerging from the housing homeless in service um i mean we had a workshop with iCT colleagues a couple of weeks ago to try and capture i guess what projects that are current but also um looking ahead what some new water future demands might be and an acknowledgement that we may need to do some re-prioritization of um of those projects obviously in the housing emergency action plan there are you know ambitions within that as well which we recognize as they are developed and you know the specifications are um are more detailed that there may be iCT requirements in in they are so i suppose it's an acknowledgement that we're going to have to keep working with um iCT colleagues to re-prioritize the the work program and make sure that we're bringing forward those that have sort of greatest impact okay thank you and um project manager that seems to be that seems to be a sort of funding issue there but when when do you think we'll have one in place so in the proposals for the service review the house and homelessness service review which concluded and we are now in the the process of starting to fill post through the um into the new structure there are three permanent project manager posts um in that structure and we'll be filling those through the implementation of the service review which recruitment's likely to start at more senior level in in the coming weeks so it's it's imminent in terms of filling those posts okay uh and just can i just um quickly we've got councilman very very patient thank you um the work scheduling system um well a build can be 95 complete there's always still a huge amount of work to do in in terms of testing um do you think this could also bring up issues in itself and further delay the system and again when would a PM be in place for that thanks councilor i think you're probably referring to project five on the um on the action tracker which was uh the implementation of our out of our service on to the the automated system we pushed that back partly in terms of re-prioritization but yes most of the work has been done obviously there's always potential that through testing and you know unforeseen problems might um emerge we've pushed that back to later on in the year and and said those project management resources should be in place before then which hopefully all from a service perspective will enable us to provide the resources that are needed to to complete that project um and you know as i say what hopefully the testing goes successfully but we can't relate that there might be unforeseen problems there thank you and thank you for your patience councilor mumford do you want to come in now thank you in their ways and two very quick questions just on accessibility so 4.9 talks about a fault with the rollout of the text-to-speech functionality if you could just say a little bit more about about that and if that's had a financial impact um and then at 7.3 and we talk about the availability of paper applications and personal in-person assistance still being available can you um tell us what the capacity is for this how will that be available is it on request or is there a drop-in whatever thank you is that another one for you Sarah yes thank you and i'm not close enough to the detail on the freight and in terms of your your first question councilor mumford can certainly come back to you um on that in relation to what specifically the issues are that we encountered there in terms of the in-person assistance um the the primary points of contact there would be you know your usual routes through sort of locality offices and um libraries but we are as part of the housing emergency action plan looking at how we can um i suppose get make sure that officers are are more accessible and more mobile and communities and looking at other places in local communities that we can base ourselves and work from to enable those um that kind of help to be provided whether that's through drop-in sessions working with um third sector partners so there is a a market in the housing emergency action plan along those lines just to look at how and where people access our services on the fees to fees pieces thank you do i have any further questions i don't see any so i'll just quickly summarize by saying that um we do know that this is the final um housing service improvement plan report and that um the the information contained in it will be incorporated into the cyclical performance and i've got the terminology correct report um which i think is something that we all would welcome and i'm particularly interested actually in the IT related um improvements that are contained in here having seen some of the systems that go on in for example locality offices which clearly are from a previous generation even to my generation so that's extremely welcome and in moving the report um i would indicate that the uh we have an addendum by the green group and we have an addendum by the liberal democrat group and um each of which i think is um helpful in its own way and i would propose to accept both of those um do i have a seconder thank you convene happy to second thank you could i have a proposal for the green group addendum apologies the liberal democrat group addendum all right sorry thank you thank you convene i'll be really really quick this is just about keeping our rack very much to the forefront um so that's why we've just put that in as an inclusion and i would like to make a verbal um adjustment here because on the very last line it's got the HSIP action tracker but i noticed that on 5.3 of the report that um future actions will be on the HEAP and cyclical performance so if i could just make that adjustment so it's striking our action tracker we don't need to put anything else in i don't think i think it's still yeah yeah okay and i propose thank you very much thank you seconder yeah thank you convener and then i apologize for that i am misinformed my my colleague when she was writing this apologies to her apologies to committee for that um yeah as uh as Councillor Flannery says the the reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete um concerns that our residents have i think there needs to be a bit more sort of transparency um on what we're doing there so again we would just seek to make sure there's good quality um sort of information being included because actually it is very much part of the fabric can excuse upon thank you thank you and can i have a mover of the green addendum please yeah thank you um so previously we've talked about the circular economy within the housing service and it's referenced in the report um council had a round table on the central economy um and one of the things that came out from that round table was a case study with North Airshire Council and circular community Scotland in terms of how they were working with a housing service or the housing service there so really this is just a request to say can we learn from that and do that because that is consistent with our broader priorities in terms of net zero thanks thank you do i have a seconder formally thank you thank you um just by way of summing up i think in both both cases you're pushing it to an open door um so um unless there it was only positioned to the contrary i'm looking around the room i think we can agree the report as addended yeah thank you uh moving on Jamie takes you to item 8.3 um ukraine support service grant awards for continuation of services under urgency provisions for phoenix counseling personal development and support services limited and association of ukrainians in Great Britain Edinburgh branch that's a report by executive director of place and Gavin Sharp will introduce welcome Gavin you've waited a long time today thank you convener nothing to add to the report but i just want to thank yourself and committee as well for the under urgency of this and also colleagues for the deputation this morning so happy to answer any questions thank you very much do we have any Councillor jones yes thank you for the report and it's going back to the figure of of just clarification because i'm still a little unsure about um 3.3 and we welcomed 11 and a half thousand ukrainians how many how many actually are still here and what proportion are in temporary accommodation thank you Councillor so there's estimated over three just over 3000 ukrainians in the city and that's roughly between 1000 and 1200 households so as it stands at the moment we have 51 households within social housing within the city an estimated 100 to 150 in private rental or mid-market and the rest would be what we'd class as temporary accommodation so that's a mixture of host arrangements hotels and apartments procured by Scottish government and in our own temporary accommodation that's clear thank you thank you do i have any further questions i don't see any but Gavin please convey our the role committees thanks um to the deputation this morning it was extremely helpful and quite moving on occasion and um we understand how difficult it must be actually to come to a committee like this but i think you can convey our whole-hearted support to all of them and to um continuing to support in the way that's outlined in this report are we agreed thank you yes uh so at this point we have two substitutions uh Councillor Jones is leaving us but i think Councillor Munro is going to join online uh to substitute for him Councillor uh good Councillor Noor's McVay is going to join us in person or online in person good so we'll just um give it a couple of minutes for Councillor Noor's McVay to make his way well okay have a sleep everybody I know this is yeah okay we'll see I hope see you shortly you you you you you (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) I guess in the report some elements are more prominent than others, but happy to answer any questions and we'll get some colleagues here for various aspects. Thank you. Thank you, Derek. So Councillor Parker. Thank you. Thank you for the report as well. So I think one of the aims of the housing bill is to improve affordability for tenants in the private rented sector. And I wondered, because I didn't really pick it up in the report, but I wondered if the Council takes a view on whether the affordability of rents or a significant factor in people's experience of poverty in the city. And therefore, if any analysis has been done to look at whether the bill's intentions to reduce and stabilise rents in the city would have any impact on that. Excuse me. Thanks for yourself, Canvilla Councillor Parker. Yes, I think absolutely the rental sector in the city and those who are living in rental accommodation, we know there's a correspondent link, a link there between poverty and a private rent level, so that's accepted and understood through the property prevention work that we're doing as a council, that's implicit in that. Right. So, yes, that's there. Councillor Poggson. So I'd wondered if you had any chance to consider the resourcing implications of this for the Council. I mean, in two regards, one is in terms of the ask and act duties that may fall on various departments within the Council, and obviously the six months due to as well. But, you know, if we look at this as positively as we can, the intention of this is that we act earlier in order to prevent the crisis and acting earlier is less resource intensive than the crisis. So, you know, balancing those things. Have you been able to develop any impression to all of the overall resourcing implications? Yes, I'll bring colleagues in a minute. I think absolutely the prevention duties, one that we support. I think I was presenting the legislation that basically crystallises good practice that we have across the city already. But I'll bring colleagues in because in terms of the resources needed to undertake that, I'm just probably best pleased to answer. Hi there. We completed last year, and the same bar officers were asked to complete a consultation document in advance of the bill going through looking at the potential impacts, including financial impacts. So we looked at the legislation in England and reports when neighbouring very similar legislation. So we had to make an estimation of what that might be. So we looked at the numbers in new staff that we might need to be based on our private rented sector team, who had a new team formed with a specific aim of preventing homelessness. And we estimate that should there be a 25% increase in homeless presentations, we would need approximately 42 members of staff in the first instance to deal with that, as I'm led to believe down in England over the first few years of the legislation coming in. They saw a sharp increase, although the policy intention is still that it will decrease over time, but initially we expect it to increase. Do you want to come in and do it? Yeah, thanks. Just in addition to that, and linked to the previous reports we looked at in terms of our data quality and how we're looking to assess that, we're working hard on how we can use the data we have already to predict homelessness and prevent it. So some of that resource that Jill's mentioned there hopefully will be mitigated by improving what we're doing, and I'm talking about advanced technology in order to be able to do that and bring together different data sets. So that's an assessment on how that would work, but we're working on other IT systems, data and insights to try and mitigate that. Thank you. Councillor Mumford. Thank you. I had a question about the current resource that the Council spends on preventing routes into homelessness from the private rent sector. And if there's a view that the action in the bill or other action to stabilize rents and remove volatility in the market might make it easier for people to avoid eviction. Could we see it having a positive impact on the homelessness outcomes within the Council and the resource we're putting into the private rent sector preventatively now. Thanks. Do you want to come in on that, Nikki? We can certainly come in on the first part, Councillor Mumford's question. So at the moment, Councillor Mumford, we have a relatively small team who are dealing with people who are risking homelessness in the private rent sector that will include financial inclusion officer. It will include housing officers and we can also link any other services like family and household support when we require it. Do you want to be correctly on the numbers here, but I think the team has five people and posted at the moment in a team leader. So if we were looking at additional presentations from private sector, clearly we need to look at resources for that. Conversely, if we reduced presentations or potential presentations from the private rent sector as well, because the team is so small at the moment, I don't think there's a possibility of realigning them to other preventative work. I never think that would require additional resources. Thank you. Do we have, anybody else want to come in on that second part? Yep. Yeah, thanks, just to follow it up and thanks, Nikki. I mentioned their work we're doing around data to try and predict homelessness and understand impact. What we are looking to do is look at the wider datasets. It's not necessarily a new approach, but there's wider evidence around homelessness and the prevention of homelessness from that comes from health services. So, for example, that there will be a likelihood of an increased pattern of presentation at A&E departments, for example, not up to homelessness. That's well established through other datasets. So what we're trying to do is bring those wider datasets together to be able to not just prevent but predict in the first place and step in really early. So, again, that kind of mitigation of staffing and resources might need if we can get that right, get the right technology and the right data and sharing information, sharing protocols in place. I'd be hopeful that we can mitigate any increase in resources needed. Thank you, Councillor Flannery. Thanks very much, Kavina. My question is around 4.21, and there's quite a lot of detail there, which is actually quite good, it's concrete, it's practical. So, my question really is about what has informed some of those objectives, for example, has that been with consultation with the council or with different tendencies, the third sector? So, if you could just give me a wee bit of background and maybe there, that would be really helpful. Do you want to comment on that, Derek? Well, thank you. So, 4.21 is a bit of a catch-all section in the report. Some very important issues in there nonetheless. There has been extensive engagement with Scottish government officials, probably some over the last three years or so. I think Lisa's probably lied on the majority of that for us, so she might want to come in. But some of the, yeah, I think there is really pragmatic points in there, really helpful points in there about how the legislation will work, and I would say along with probably every other Scottish local authority. Not just the housing and homelessness services, but others in their council tax etc. For example, rather, have been had the opportunity to feed internet consultation and help bring the provisions together. Lisa, do you want to add to that? Just to say that we have been involved through, I mean, even before when rent pressure zones were, we worked extensively with government around that and around a lot of challenges around data, which remain. And we are still part of the working group, as Derek says, along with a lot of other local authorities and feeding into the practicalities of what that could have been. Could I ask about that particular issue, Lisa, and the involvement that you've and others have had in the formulation of this bill? Have you seen your contributions reflected in the final, well, it's not the final version, but of the published version of the bill? I think there's limited detail, I suppose, in the bill itself. I think what we've been doing is just setting out how things currently work and what we need to change in order to be able to implement something at this scale. It's difficult to say from the current, but as you say, it's just a, we've got more and more opportunities to continue to feed in and we will do that. And could you say a little bit about what happens next in relation to the bill as far as we understand it, please? There's currently a call for evidence at this point, I think the submission dates the end of the week as well, so we'll continue to feed into that and bring forward specifics. Thank you very much, do I have any further questions before we move on to the report itself? So I'll move the report and in doing so, refer to both the S&P and Green Group, Amendment and Addendum. And I do note that you have concerns about the perceived positivity of positive aspects of positive responses to the bill. And I have to say that in my view that was never the intention, but in the spirit of wanting to redress that perceived balance, then I think that I would be minded to accept both the S&P, Addendum and the Green Group Amendment with an ask of the S&P group that in 114, we add the word sufficient so that it reads that this summary does not contain sufficient information regarding the potential. So delete the word any and insert the word sufficient. Yes, that's fine, thank you. Thank you, and I understand you haven't moved yet, but Jamie will keep me right about that aspect of things. So I won't say any more about that, but thank you for that, and thank you for what I think are helpful contributions. And I know the officer's intention was to set out the benefits, but also the perceived risks, and I think that's part of their job. So I move the report. Do I have a seconder? Happy to second convener, thank you. Thank you, Councillor Poggson. So who is first? Thank you. Could I ask for a mover of the S&P Addendum, please? Up formally. Thank you. And a seconder? Formerly. Thank you. And to move the Green Amendment. Yeah, thanks. Sorry, I won't do so formally. I think our addendum is complementary to the S&Ps, and I think really we're making the point that you've sort of referenced already convener that I think the report is very frank about the perceived challenges related to the bill, but I think it's not necessarily up front about the benefits of it too. I think this morning's reputation was excellent in setting out some of the context around the bill, so that included a doubling of the PRS since 1999, rent increases of 50%, and the very real effects that this has in terms of pushing people into poverty within the city, and also contributing to widening inequality as well. I was particularly struck by the commentary from the deputation about landlords increasing rents to match the increase in uplift of universal credit, and how landlords ability to indiscriminately raised rents in this way, including between tendencies is one way in which we can see landlords extracting funding from the public purse, which is otherwise intended to lift people out of poverty. Our group's position is very clear. We think that post Thatcher, we have seen a concerted effort to weaken public control in the housing system. We think that has led to negative outcomes for people, in particular tenants who are more likely to be experiencing poverty, and all of the intersections of different demographics as part of that. So that's why we've firmly supported the bill and its intentions. Our amendment makes a number of points. Firstly, it just sets out that we absolutely welcome the bill. We consider that this is a starting point for the resetting, I guess, of the relationships which exists around housing, recognizing that housing should exist as a social good to provide homes for people, not as an instrument of financial speculation, which I think has become the norm in recent decades. Secondly, we recognize the concerns around resourcing within local authorities for data collection, which I think are reasonable concerns to raise, but we make the point explicitly that data collection is positive not only for tenants, but also for landlords and housing practitioners, because often it is the data gaps that exist, which make it really difficult for us to set good policy locally. We also push back on the commentary about the impact on housing supply, which I think was also discussed in the deputation this morning. Housing is not perishable. I think that was the phrase that the deputation made, it doesn't disappear. And actually, when landlords talk about supply in the context of the housing bill, they are talking about supply of private rented sector properties and their ability to extract a profit from those. That is not the same thing as a number of homes that exist within the city, particularly given the fact that we know that the bill to rent sector in Edinburgh is not very large. Finally, we absolutely recognize concerns about compliance with homelessness prevention duties, and we want to see those spotlighted at costless. So we're supportive of the parts of the report that cover that. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Parker. Do I have a seconder? Normally, thank you. Thank you, Councillor Mumford. Now, Councillor Bruce, I gather you have an alternative position. Yeah, thank you, Kinfina. Yeah, I'd like to happy with the green amendment. Happy with paragraphs one and two of the, of their addendum, but not paragraph three. So that's what I'd like to move. And there is no surprise that we're not going to find out rent controls. And as I said before, more and more landlords are selling up because it's becoming more and more financially unviable due to rent controls and thus the supply of rented accommodation pushing up costs causing needless stress and anxiety to potential tenants. So I'd just like to move those two parts. Thank you. Thank you. Do I have a seconder? Yes, you do, Kinfina. I'll second formally. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Munro. So can I open up for debate, please? Councillor Caldwell. Thank you, Kinfina, and I'm not going to say anything about tone, because I think we've been over that today. Some of us are old enough to remember the private housing tenancy Scotland Act 2016, where rent pressure zones were introduced. And I recall then, you know, there was excitement as well about this being the start of, you know, resetting a relationship or whatever. And since then, zero councils were able to apply for rent pressure zones because the data wasn't available and requirements were so extraneous that councils didn't, including this council, which is a real shame. So while we're all getting very excited by this, I think it's very important to note that it has to be competently and fairly written. And I know that some of our officers and our convener take very seriously when we have discussions with parliamentarians and the Scottish government, but we can't have another situation like that. So in regards to that, we'll be voting for the report S&P Addendum and Green Addendum. But like we say, the devil will be absolutely in a detail because we can't have another 2016 private housing tenancy act situation. Thank you. Thank you. Any further contributions before we move to a vote? I just quite quickly. I mean, we have an already established council position on rent controls, and I don't think it's either within the gift and all the desire of this committee to change that position. So I think that for those reasons, I would remain with my own position, if you like. And the devil, you correctly point out, is in the detail, and I think we all understand that. And as time goes on, there'll be future iterations of this bill, and we'll all be able to contribute through the appropriate channels and at what I hope will result in a bill that suits suits the needs of this country. And with those words, can we move to a vote, please, Jamie? Yes, that's convener. Just before we do point of clarification, Councillor Bruce, you're accepting paragraphs 1.14 and 1.15 with the S&P Addendum. In terms of 1.14, is it the wording as adjusted or the original wording? As adjusted, that's fine. Thank you. Okay, so we have two possessions then, motion moved by Councillor MARS, seconded by Councillor Poggson, which agrees the recommendations in the report, and accepts the S&P Addendum as adjusted, replacing the word any with sufficient. That Addendum moved by Councillor Dobbins, seconded by Councillor Fullerton, and also accepts the Green Amendment, moved by Councillor Parker, seconded by Councillor Mumford. Against that, the amendment moved because the Bruce, seconded by Councillor Munro agrees the recommendations, accepts the Green Amendment in full and paragraphs 1.14 as adjusted and paragraph 1.15 of the S&P Addendum. Can I take the votes firstly for the Conservative Amendment, please? Thank you, and for the motion. Thank you, it's nine for the motion, and two for the amendment, the motion is carried. Thank you, Jamie. It's probably, I mean, we've still got a fair bit of business to work through. Having said that, I think we're going to have to go formal at five o'clock, so just to alert you to that, as a, probably, less a possibility and more of a likelihood. So can we move on then, please, Jamie? Yes, Councillor Jones to take his seats. So that then takes you on to item 8.5, discretionary housing payments. There's a report by the Executive Director of Place, and we have Niki Brown and Sheila Hagen to introduce the report. Welcome, Sheila. Nothing else to add to the report. Happy to take questions. Any questions to Sheila on discretionary housing payments? I'm not seeing any, and that might mean that we move on to an assumption, and perhaps wrongly, that, so I'm going to formally, oh, Councillor Caldwell, last minute. I felt it was cruel, cruel, and Sheila down without asking. I just wanted to perhaps get your opinion in terms of the different types of benefits that people are rightly entitled to. How much confusion is there between, you know, the different, you know, you've got your housing benefit, universal credit, you've got the new devolved Social Security Scotland, you've got a discretion, housing payment. Could we just get a bit of an indication of how our residents are actually finding navigating this to get to your team? Thank you. Yep, we have a purely online service for things like housing benefit and council tax reduction, and there are unified benefits as well. So, you know, there's only one application form, and we seek to go down that route even further, where we're introducing free-scale mail-and-coding grants into that. So, I think that we're doing as much as possible to bring in a single financial assessment for the benefits that we do. However, there are benefits out with our control, things like universal credit, and then you've got the Scottish Social Security Agency who have a number of benefits that are available to people. What I would say is we've got an excellent advice service who support people, make those applications. We have good web presence, which indicates to people what they're entitled to, and there's other products being looked at. So, I think that people are pretty supported through that. We also help campaign things like the Scottish child payment and adult disability payments when we're asked to buy Scottish government. So, I think we are reaching quite a lot of people. There will still be people, though, who haven't been able to access those services, but Nikki's team obviously picked that up quite often. Thank you. Thanks, Sheila. Councillor Dobbins. Just very briefly, I really would like to thank officers for this report, and also just to put on record my appreciation for the excellent, responsive and highly empathetic response that Sheila and her team provide to residents and ourselves. Thank you, Councillor Dobbins. I'm really glad you said that, because I think that we would all endorse that, Sheila. So, please don't interpret the absence of questions as any reflection on your report or yours and your team's work. Quite the opposite. I think we all appreciate and understand it's important, so thank you very much. And in the absence of any amendment or addendum, are we happy to note the report? Thank you. Moving on. Item 8.6 is local government benchmarking framework housing and economic development. This is a report by the executive director of place, and Catherine Stewart will introduce. Afternoon, everyone. Hello, Catherine, you're online. Sorry, I haven't registered that. Sorry, hello. Just a couple of comments. So this is LGBS, the local government benchmarking framework data. It covers the year 2223, and this report covers two of the eight themes, so it covers the housing and the economic development themes. Happy to take any questions. Thank you. Any questions? I don't see any questions, and in the absence of any motions or amendments, can we note the report? Committee? Agreed. Thank you. And thanks for your patience, Catherine. Thank you. Can we just pause a second? [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] Thank you. So in relation to this report, those of you who will know that this report only came to our attention yesterday, and secondly, that it contains some factual errors and inaccuracies, as well as horrendously, I think some grammatical mistakes. But anyway, but the most important things are the factual inaccuracies, and for that reason, I propose that we consider this report at our next committee, largely because we simply haven't had sufficient time to consider what is an extremely important report. But can I have an indication of whether you agree with that approach? Thank you. So I think we've all agreed that. So thank you, Laura, but we'll see you the next time we need. Thank you. [BLANKAUDIO] Thank you, Councillor Dobbins. Thank you very much. So in terms of responsiveness to dampness cases, I think there's been a market step forward. Since the dampness team was formed about a year ago, there is, of course, a significant backlog that is being cleared. The thing that kind of concerns me is that we've got tenants, we've been living in homes suffering from damp for extended periods of time. And yet, they are often, when you meet the housing officer, the housing officer asking them to, you know, chasing them up for the rental payment. And it seems to me that living in a safe dry home should be the basic expectation of a council tenant under the rental agreement, and that if we fail to maintain that safe dry home for them, that they should be able to expect some form of rent rebates. If that issue is not resolved to the satisfaction within a specified period of time. So what I'm really asking for in this is, and I'm just going to make a small amendment to these two points to investigate proposing a report on how such a scheme would work. And to investigate proposing an assessment of rebate that might be applicable to tenants who have previously had extended periods of living with damp and mold. So I propose our motion. And do I have a seconder? Yeah. In areas where there is a lot of council tendencies, like my own and council job is, I can only agree with his sentiments and emotions. So I'd like seconder. Thank you. And can I open up for debate, Councillor Bruce. Thank you, Kavina. I'm just wondering if Councillor Dobbins would just accept a small little change at the very end of, to investigate a report on how such a scheme would work, including costs, just other including costs at the end, just so we've got an idea. I think that's implicit, but yes, that's fine. Yes, I'll accept it, although I think it's implicit. Yeah, so I think that's after the words to prepare a report on how such a scheme would work, including costs. Is that right, Councillor Bruce? Thank you. Any further contributions to the debate? I mean, I would be contributing by noting that support for Councillor Dobbins motion and welcoming a report because that would allow us as a committee to be able to scrutinise the conditions and workings, if you like, of such compensation. So, excuse me, I realise I'm not being particularly articulate, it's not compensation, it's to do the question of rebates. So, yeah, I think that given that, and given that we will have an opportunity to have a closer look at it all in when we have a report coming, which is what your motion asks for, then I think I would personally be in support of your motion. Do I have any other contributions or indications? Do I have any contrary position? Keep me right back. Can we assume that's agreed? Thank you. We're moving ahead then. So, 9-2, again, Councillor Dobbins. Thank you. Small verbal adjustment, again, same, the two points to start and investigate proposing as opposed to just propose in order to get a report. The effect of living with dampen mold for extended periods of time is something that I really want to highlight in this motion. And I want to do so by just quoting from a short film that one of my residents made and was presented at an event in Royce Maudiborne, which was driven by the North Edinburgh Families Action Group that Councillor Paulson has self-attended. Where the resident who spent, I think I referred to her earlier, eight years with continual issues, said that she tried to keep everything clean and safe for the kids. I was buying stuff, changing them all the time. I've got big problems with money because I tried to make that place safe for them, but I couldn't change everything every couple of months. That's why we never go for a proper vacation or we didn't do anything special because I spent money all the time to fix the problems at home. So, by not doing it right first time, the tenants incur quite considerable costs in trying to protect their families and keep their homes safe. I also just perhaps mention one other thing because it's not just financial impact that hits residents. She went on later in the film to talk about her son, which she says he didn't finish his high school because of the horrible headaches and problems with asthma. So, it's not just the immediate financial impact, it's the risk of affecting life chances. So, on that, I think it's absolutely reasonable and essential that where we cause a tenant to have to continue to invest in replacement of belongings, they should have the right and the opportunity in a simple way of achieving some compensation. And I'm particularly keen on the second point to be able to have an appropriate way of compensating people retrospectively. So, I'm happy to propose an emotion. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Dovin. Do I have a seconder? Thank you. I think as I elected members, we should never want to hear such sad stories again. So, I have an hesitation in seconding Councillor Dovin's motion. Thank you. Do I have any contributions to the debate? I don't see any. So, in the absence of that, can we agree Councillor Dovin's motion? Can I just commend you, Councillor Dovin, for your diligence in paying attention to the dampness of mold issues that we have in the city? And it's a concern to all of us, but you've been particularly prominent in reminding this committee of its obligations in that respect. And I am glad that the incidents are going down and I think you could take some credit for that yourself. So, thank you very much. Can we move on? Item 9.3 is a motion by Councillor Dovin on property acquisitions with existing tenants. What I'd like to do before I launch into the motion is just thank officers, particularly Lisa, for her help in more accurately, allow me to more accurately frame the motion. I think it's very, very positive that we're moving to consolidate ownership in blocks of flats. In West Pilton in particular, the harm on the damage in the poor housing situation in one corner of the ward where there are far too many absentee landlords. And far too little, Council ownership, it can be seen very clearly how poor the environment is, how poor the quality of the properties on. But the progress comes when in one particular situation where landlords, this came up through the mixed tenure improvement scheme where landlords are unwilling or unable to engage or to pay for the improvements they decide to sell. In the case of owner occupiers, there's a scheme of assistance that allows owner occupiers to basically become a council tenant, which is great. However, in instances where a landlord has a sitting tenant and wishes to sell, the council hitherto is only able to acquire that property as a vacant property. Therefore, the landlord will evict the tenant prior to selling the property. It's my view, and I'm sure everybody's view that as a council, we should not be participating in a situation where through our engagement of our actions, a resident of the city becomes homeless. And therefore, in order to change that situation needs to be a policy change. And that's really what we're asking for, officers to prepare a report that allows a policy to be considered whereby ex-private tenants are able to maintain continuity of tenure. It seems to me that's really important for a family, living in a neighbourhood with friends, social activities, schools, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm happy to propose the motion. Thank you, Councillor Dovin. Do I have a seconder? You do indeed? Yes, I'd just like to second everything, Councillor Dovin has said. I don't agree with that. I think it's shameful that we're going to end up with people who, through no fault of their own, become homeless. Because the landlord has given them addiction notices, so that can't be allowed to happen. So I'd like to second that. Councillor Dovin, just to confirm, it's the adjusted version that was circulated to committee members. It's the adjusted version, yes. I apologise for my failing energy levels at the moment. That's fine. Can I just make sure that everybody's seen the adjusted motion? Yeah. Now, I'll open up for debate, but I'm not seeing any hands coming up. Can we, again, just approve this motion? Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. Okay, that takes you to item 9.4. Councillor Flannery, I understand you were going to withdraw this motion. Is that correct? Yes, I'm withdrawing it, and I'm going to put it to the right committee. Thank you. Thanks very much. That takes you then to 9.5, motion by Councillor Flannery on meeting time minutes through 24/25, and a green group amendment has been circulated. Thank you. Councillor Flannery. Thank you for bearing with me. Thank you. Scrolling down at this time of the day. Yes, it's very, very quick, this one. I noticed that our meetings, particularly this year, have quite a lot of gaps, and I know already that we've agreed the diary date, so that's what number one covers off. So it isn't really about trying to reinvent the wheel here, but I did want to highlight that, again, for the second year running, it means next year in February, the RA, sorry, the HRA budget will have been submitted before we will have had our meeting. So if it's not possible to change that for any reason, then can we be mindful of that maybe when we set the next round of meetings, and that's really what this is about. Thanks very much. Thank you. Do I have a second? Yeah, thank you. Councillor Flannery, other, you know, attention to this, as well as, you know, we're aware that a lot of the housing data that we get, this committee is the source for a lot of people in the city of that, and given there's such huge concern right now about the state of housing, it would be helpful that we have more, either more regular meetings or more consistent meeting dates. So with that, a seconder motion. Thank you. Thank you. And the green amendment. Yeah, thank you. I think I just wanted to be clear in this that we can't revisit the Council diary this year, but I'm very supportive of the idea that we look at it for future years, especially noting that other committees and boards that have budgets associated with them, F&R, IJB, have additional meetings to look at that explicitly, and perhaps that's something we ought to consider as a committee, but making no commitments right now. Thank you. Do I have a seconder? Thank you, Camini. Yeah, just to echo that and say, I think Council diary has come up many times for many people, and it needs to be looked at holistically because one thing we do with one committee can have impacts on another. So I'm pleased to second the green amendment. Thanks. Any other contributions to this particular discussion? I don't see any and so over to you, Councillor Flannery, to check whether you accept the Green Amendment and whether you want to sum up. Yeah, I'm very happy to accept the Green Amendment and to just confirm that, yes, it is about the dates that haven't been set yet. You know, we are looking about future dates, and particularly just being mindful of when that February date, as I say, this will be the second year that it would have fallen, and it is a crucial time, as my colleague says. So with that, I'm happy to accept the Green Amendment. Yeah, the brain's gone. Thank you very much. Thank you. I don't see any position to the contrary, we're accepting. Yeah, agreed. Thank you. Moving on. On to the final item, 9.6, motion by Councillor Caldwell, and drugs and communal state wells. Councillor Caldwell. Thank you, convener. This is sprung from a particular issue that residents may have actually been raising in regards to where Council responsibility in terms of public health crisis begins and ends. Well, we have legislative guidance here to where and cannot intervene. There's also a moral factor as well. I think that we need to be considering. We need to keep in mind that a lot of communal stairwells are effectively treated as public places, and it's not good enough for us to say it's private when it suits us, but it's public in all other terms. And other things like stair lighting and all that I've had to base in the past, so that this simply asks officers to investigate whether sharp box collections would be feasible in communal stairwells with no council ownership to report that back. Not in a full report, but hopefully just sort of briefly to save their time. And the other thing we need to be aware of is not to be demonising anyone particularly and actually ensuring that throughout this, we are ensuring support is sign posted where possible. Because at the end of the day, it's a crisis that affects a lot of people. I think we need to be consistent with the measures Council have taken so far and respect individual there. So with that, move that motion. Thank you. Thank you. Do I have a seconder? Yes. Happy to second. Thank you. Thank you and can opening up for any discussion or debate rather. Any contributions? I don't see any in that case. Are we agreed on this motion? Yeah, agreed. I think that takes us to the conclusion of business. Many thanks everybody. And we actually made it 10 to 5. There's been a huge amount of important work today. So thank you very much for your contributions. [BLANKAUDIO]