Transcript

Thank you very much. Good evening and welcome to this remote hearing of the licensing committee. My name is Councillor E. M. C. Annie Foyes and I will be the chair of this committee. Could you please all switch off from microphones to mute unless I call up on you to speak. We don't want to be disturbed by any background noise. When you have finished speaking, please remember to mute your microphone again. If a member of this committee wishes to ask a question, I ask that they indicate to do so using this chat panel. If a member of this committee loses internet connection or power, can they please inform myself, the chair or the clerk immediately so we can suspend the hearing until a connection has been restored. Before business starts, I would like to make clear the procedure for this evening. This is a formal virtual hearing which is open to the press and public for the purpose of which is to make a decision on the applications. Having considered all evidence presented before us, including written reports, verbal representations and any questions asked and answered, the applicant will be invited to first speak and their members will be invited to ask questions. The objectors will then be invited to speak and again members will be able to ask questions. I will allow up to five minutes for each presentation but please do not repeat anything that has been already said. When members have heard all evidence, the meeting will close and deliberations will be made elsewhere. I have not received any apologies for absence. I will read out the names of the members of the licensing committee. Please, can you confirm that you are present at this meeting? Councillor Atkinson. Present. Good evening. Good evening. Councillor Brown. Present. Councillor Burgess. Present. Councillor Hodding. Present. Councillor Howard. Present. Good evening. Good evening. Councillor Jackson. Present. Good evening, M.C. Good evening. Councillor Kesner. Nope. That's fine. And Councillor Amokosi. Present. Good evening. Good evening. I will now read out the names of the officers present at this meeting. Again, can you please confirm that you are present? Rachel Lin, lawyer. Present, Chair. And Claire Wieser, Claire. Present, Claire. Thank you. So, moving on to the minutes. The minutes to will be agreed at the next meeting of this committee. So, I'm assuming that's the minutes of the last meeting we had. Declarations of interest. Is there anything that anybody wants to declare? Just to be known that I am the Councillor for Deckford. Thank you. Thank you. No worries. Moving on to item three, which is City Lounge 189 Deckford High Streets. S E 8 3 and T. I will now ask Richard Locket or Richard Locket. It's not here. So that's right. Chair. Chair, Chair, Chair. Thank you, Chair. This hearing is to determine an application for a variation to the current premises license. May bar a Rio de Luar, sobers on a PEDI in relation to the premises at City Lounge 189 Deckford High Street, which was received on the 12th of February, 2024. The application was served on responsible authorities and has been advertised in accordance with regulations with an advert in a local newspaper. And a notice prominently displayed at the premises for a period of 28 consecutive days. The last date for receiving representations was the 12th of March, 2024. This premises is currently licensed for on sales of alcohol between 11am and 11pm Monday to Sunday. A copy of the current premises license can be found on pages 49 to 59 of the agenda pack. The application for a variation to the premises license proposes the following changes. Extension for sale of alcohol on the premises, 11pm to 3am. Thursday to Saturday. Additional recorded and live music, 11pm to 3am. Thursday to Saturday. Addition of late night refreshment, 11pm to 3am. Thursday to Saturday. Removal of conditions, 14, 15 and 16 from Annex 2. Amendment of opening hours, 2300 to 0330. Addition of seasonal variations, Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve, Nigerian Independence Day, any day preceding back holidays. Alcohol for alcohol recorded and live music and late night refreshment, 11pm to 3am. The council had received eight representations from local residents in addition to one from a local council object into the proposed variation on various grounds, including the prevention of puppet nuisance, prevention of children from harm and prevention of primary disorder. These can be found on pages 29 to 43 of the agenda pack. The representations received have been examined by officers and are not considered to be vexacious or frivolous. All representations were received within a specified time. In addition, there have also been representations from two responsible authorities object into the variation. The police have objected to the variation on the grounds of prevention of puppet nuisance and the prevention of primary disorder. This can be found on pages 43 to 48 of the agenda pack. The licensing authority had objected to the proposal on the grounds of the prevention of public nuisance and suggested the following amendments to the application. On a Thursday, the closing time should be 0130am with license for activities stopping at 01am. Background music only between 10pm and midnight in the outside area. On a Friday and Saturday, the closing time should be 0230am with license for activity stopping at 02am. The three conditions proposed to be removed should instead be reworded as follows. The outside seating area at the rear of the premises must be closed by midnight to patrons eating and drinking. 15 after midnight, the garden may be used for smoking only and shall not exceed six people at any one time. 16 music played within the premises shall be set at a level that will ensure there is no noise or vibration nuisance within any neighboring residential properties. Music in the outside area shall be turned out 2300 to a background level where people can hold a conversation without having to raise their voices. In addition to this, the licensing authority proposed the following additional conditions for Thursday, Friday and Saturdays. One, all windows and doors must be kept shut whilst entertainment is in progress except for the immediate entrance, aggressive patrons. Two, the premises shall install a sound limiter that is set at a level so as to not cause a nuisance to neighboring properties. Three, no noise generated on the premises or by its associated plants or equipment to emulate from the premises, nor vibration be transmitted through the structure of the premises which give rights to a nuisance. Four, a telephone number should be made available to neighbors so they can contact the premises with any concerns. These suggested amendments to hours and conditions as well as the suggested new conditions which can be found on pages 60 to 63 of the agenda park were agreed by the applicant prior to this hearing, which means that the proposal is amended as follows. Extension for sale of alcohol on the premises, 11 p.m. to 1 a.m. on Thursdays, 11 p.m. to 2 a.m. Friday and Saturday. The addition of recorded and live music and late night refreshment, 11 p.m. to 1 a.m. on a Thursday, 11 p.m. to 2 a.m. on a Friday and Saturday. The amendment of opening hours, 11 p.m. to 0130 a.m. on Thursday and 11 p.m. to 0230 a.m. on Fridays and Saturdays. After having regards to all the representations heard members must take steps as they consider appropriate to promote the licensing objectives. Steps available to a licensing authority are one, run the variation to the premises license as applied for to grant the variation to the licensed subject conditions modified to such extent that the authority considers appropriate for the promotion of the licensing objectives. Three, exclude from the scope of the license, any of the license for activities to which the application relates for refuse to specify a person in the license as a designated premises supervisor. Five, refuse to grant the variation application. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much. I will now move on to introduce the applicant. So I believe Felicity Sobers is present. Hi. Hi, would you would you like to make a representation? Thank you, Chair. My name is Drew Gibson, licensed agent for the applicant. Good evening, everybody. Just before you get started, I will give you five minutes to make a representation. And then we've got 30 seconds left. I'll just give you the heads up. Thank you very much. With bearing in that in mind, I see no point going over the hours, changes that we've agreed with the licensing authority again your, your, your officer is ably done that for us. But I think the point to make here is the licensing authority who, after all, were the authors of your licensing policy, which is referred to in the objections quite a few times that they have policy statements that dictate certain things. The licensing authority who wrote the policy now are in support of the application and not believe with the conditions that we've agreed with them that this application is indeed an exception to your policy and therefore should be granted in terms of your own licensing officer. When you go through the objections, Chair, the main concern seems to be that of the prevention of public nuisance and the noise from the backyard area seems to be prevalent in that. I just highlight the fact that that will now close at midnight. It will not run into the early hours of the morning and with people only allowed out there to smoke after midnight. And the key is that background music only from 11 o'clock onwards in the yard area and background music being that people can speak normally over and over the music and not have to shout or raise their voice to be heard so background music. I liken it to elevate to music. It's the same type of thing. The other point to mention regarding the music is indeed the applicant is agreed to install a sound limiter and this is, as I'm sure you're aware, sound limiters are not the cheapest item on the market but they are very valuable to premises of this nature, where the limit can be set usually in conjunction with environmental health officer and once that limit is set, it is, it is locked and the key is locked away. So basically, anyone who saw fit to try and tamper with the system and increase the volume, not only unable to do so because the key should be locked away. But if they did, they would be in breach of their license because this wouldn't be conditioned on the license so they would be in breach of the license and therefore cannot do it. You've heard windows and doors will be closed except for access and egress when entertainment is being played. I think a point worth mentioning chair that that hasn't been mentioned to date is probably a little more in fact amongst the objectors as well that from the 18th of January this year until the third of March this year, a period of 46 consecutive days. There have been a total of 21 temporary event notices that have taken place where license of activity has run until 2am with everybody out by half past two. There's no complaints in the papers here. I've gone through the papers in great depth. There is no complaint specifically to any of those evenings to say that there was noise disturbance. So, to come forward and say that any kind of noise and noise all the time it's just not true this, these premises have operated to 46% of the time since January the 18th on a temporary event permission that allows them to trade until 2am without any complaint. The environmental health who I'm sure you're aware are the students of the prevention of public nuisance within the council have not raised an objection at all to the application. So any noise complaints no doubt they would have come to them they would have been very active in this application in saying no we've had a lot of complaints. This cannot happen they didn't object at all. The police have objected and no doubt you'll hear from the police shortly but I'm a little bit perplexed as to what the objecting to the state and the objection there's no problems with the 10s 21 days were fine. They say there were noise complaints but not to them to other authorities and then those other authorities aren't here objecting to any noise complaints that potentially have been made. Another point to mention or just to think about here is I don't know where the only people who can object to temporary event notices are the police environmental health officer. If the police were so concerned there were noise complaints for the 10s. Why didn't there is an objection to the subsequent 10s there were six different temporary events notices applied for in this period but no objection from the police. In summing up or just concluding now it is worth pointing out that if you were minded to grant this application this evening before any late night activity license will activity took place under the new horrors. There would be a full fully documented dispersal policy lodged with the licensing authority and any other authority who wish to see it. The dispersal policy would concentrate on the duty of the door staff and staff in dispersing customers away from the premises quickly and quietly after the shutters come down and shutters come down at 230 or 130 on the Thursday. And it's the way of getting these people away from the premises without causing noise disruption without causing nuisance with car horns and so forth in short not causing a public nuisance to the residential properties nearby. The door staff will will be tasked with that duty and it will follow in the dispersal policy to follow things I'm very aware of my time. There is reference in their objections to say that the previous premises operated as kick and munch and it is the same owners. That's not true. The order before you today was not the owner of kick and munch and had nothing to do with those premises. Everything you see in the objections that relate back to that and there are quite a bit of detail relating to kick and munch. There's no relevance before you this evening. And the final issue to mention chair is that of parking. There's an awful lot made of cars people come in cars and they park here and they park legally and there's nobody to to police them and so forth. Chair, as you're well aware, parking is not an issue. It's not a licensing issue. It's a planning issue, but certainly not a licensing issue. And with that, I think I've run out of time. Thank you very much for your time this evening. And that is our representation. It may be Felicity wishes to add something at the end of that with her time. Thank you very much. Can you see members. Do you have any questions? Thanks me Jackson. Thank you very much chair. So just want to pick up up to you on your last point there relating to the ownership. I noticed in the objection from the police, there's a reference. On the fourth and beginning of the fifth page of the of the police's objection relating to the DPS and it appears from from the timeline that police have laid out that while the ownership of the venue may have changed the DPS is some is the same. Could you clarify that? Is that is that the case, even if the ownership of the venue has changed hands since since it was traveling on the previous name. Thank you. Sorry question and Felicity, please. My understanding of this matter, so is that the DPS of kicking money originally agreed to assist the new owners and continue as the DPS for them in the early days. Um, I don't know the facts, the detail of it, Felicity could perhaps add to this. But there became sort of some sort of confusion, whether she believed that she was still going to be the DPS after the transfer of the license or didn't want to assist anymore in any event. When this was pointed out or clarified by the police to the applicant, they closed the premises until they replaced the DPS with the current person. They were made aware that if they treated illegally without DPS, they would be in obviously in breach and open themselves even to criminal action. So the premises were closed for a period of time until they sorted that issue out Felicity, could you confirm. Yeah, exactly that. So when we were made aware that Michaela was no longer going to be a DPS, it was changed over to myself and then we continued. Okay, that's very, very obvious. I just want the wording in the timeline in the objection wasn't completely clear. So I just wanted to clarify that. Thank you very much. Much appreciated. Thank you. I'll move on to the council at university. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr Gibson for your presentations. You mentioned temporary event notices. I think you said 46 or 47. Can you just please let me know the period they were held and the kind of activities that occurred on these dates and what time those events concluded, please. Thank you for the the question, Councillor. What I said was in a period of 46 days, there were 21 days of temporary events that the last quite clear you're only allowed to have 21 days of temporary events in a calendar year. And I have an email here that's been forwarded to me from the applicant from Angela Mullen moral, from your own licensing authority, who advised the applicant on April the 9th that they had used their limit of temporary events already. This particular calendar year, and those events run, there were six separate events, beginning on the 18th of January and the last day was the 3rd of March, and they were for alcohol regulated entertainment late night refreshment from 2300 hours to all 200 hours. I would have meant, Councillor, that people would have left the premises and the shutters would have come down to 30, but the license will activity stopped at 2am for all of those events and the dates are here I can, I can read them. I don't see that's going to have any relevance to you, but it basically is giving the each event, the dates that they were active from, and the hours and they were all 2300 until or 200 hours, as you know, the license was already to 2300. It is only the extension that required the temporary event, not the original. I hope that answers your question. Thank you. I can see that there's a hand up from that from from an objector. However, at this point, questions, only committee members are allowed to ask questions so you will not be allowed to ask question at this point. Councillor Atkinson, your hand was up. Sorry, thank you, Chair. Sorry, can I just slightly refer back to Councillor Jackson's question, I'm a little bit confused as to when Felicity you became the DPS. I don't think that's quite clear and it makes a lot about during, particularly, I think it's July time, when there was quite a lot of to in on phone and I do understand that with the new licensing but I do wonder if you could just clarify for me when you became the DPS. Thank you. I became DPS in June 2023. This. So, it's actually states that Michaela was still the DPS then and in fact, in July, she made. Well, in the in the thing it says, July that Michaela was still the DPS and I know there was a little bit to in and throwing at one point with. At one point, she did withdraw that and then say again, so I just wondered if you could clarify when you did become the DPS. I don't know the exact date but after that throw back and forth with Michaela is then we then changed it and then became I became DPS. In fact, this is the Council of the, the paper state that on the 31st of July, 2023 that. Felicity became the DPS and I think at that point in time the police at a section 19 closure order in place and that was then listed as they were satisfied. Felicity was now the DPS. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Any other questions from the committee. Otherwise, I have a question to ask. Okay, I'll ask my questions. So, I just wanted to understand the size of the venue and how many patrons do you expect to to patronize your business on the Friday, Saturday, that from Thursday to Sunday. It's not, it's not that big in here to be fair. So we are looking to have about 25 to 30 people at them times, what each night. Hopefully if it's a good night. Yeah. That's all for me. Any other questions. Council member Casey. Thank you chair. You just made me think all the questions. I'll thank you for that. A question, probably to felicity, felicity, actually, in terms of those 20 to 25 people, would you consider them to be regulars. No, no, so it could be different 25 people on different days, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, grateful. Thank you. Thanks for the harding. Thank you chair and thank you, Felicity and Stuart. For presentations, I have a bit more clarity on what you're saying about the outdoor element of the venue. The yard, you're saying that's got a separate opening hours, and what you're saying regarding to kind of ambient music being played outside as well. Can you give a bit more detail on that because that's something I'm, you know, I'm concerned about causing nuisance to neighbors. So what we advise is background music should be played after 11, which is just slow, mellow music, and then after 12, it's close to guests, and they would just use the area for smoking only. It's not really, I don't know if anyone's been here. It's not really a garden. It's not an open space. It's very well covered up. So the noise, the noise travels, but it's not that loud now, especially when it covered up as well. Yeah. And we don't have big speakers in here, either. Small ones. Is that answer your question, Councilor Harding? Yeah, thank you. Okay. Councilor Howard. Thank you. Um, I think in part of the papers, there is some indication that the roof is very flimsy in some way. I don't know if that's correct or not. Could you proceed to tell us anything more about it? Um, so before there was a, we had a, like a cap over it, but now that's been changed and we've built an extension on top of the roof, if that makes sense. So it's now covered up. Yeah. And then a licensed team have viewed it as well. Okay. What's it covered by now? It's built wood. It's built by wood with wood. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Councilor Jackson. Thank you very much. Um, firstly, just to follow up on that. So just, um, you mentioned you've done some works to the roof. It's, it's, um, it's changed right now. Could you just clarify what the time scale for that was in sort of when that was, was taking place. I suppose I'm getting at is, is, was that, um, sort of post the period of some of the, some of the sort of historic concerns about noise because obviously if, if that's been done since they haven't been further kind of noise complaints or, or, you know, since then that would, that would potentially speak to the. The effectiveness of the, of the, the work that you've done. So do you, can you just give us when those, when those changes to that to the roof, the outside area were made. I'm sorry. We, I think we finished work out in some time in March. I think by the first week of March, we finished the work. Yeah. Okay. So very recently. Okay. Thank you. I want some at Atkinson. I am. Oh, gosh, it's totally left my mind. Sorry. Oh, that's really bad. Um, I was just going to ask, does the venue have a condition, because I've noted that one of the. Is to have the windows and everything closed, but of course we are facing somewhere again. And I'm just wondering how you will manage that on particularly some of the hot days and having an open space, even though it is just for smoking after a certain point in the evening. It is a very visit residential area. So whether. Basically, do you have a conditioning to make note of that? We do. We do have a condition in building. Thank you. Can I come in and, oh, can I walk on and ask a question. I'm just to understand the timelines regarding the transfer of ownership. So, when did kick and lunch cease and when did Sip and start sip city starts as a business. Um, it would have, we started in January, 2023. So that's when we became city. Yeah, well, it became city. Okay. And then so kick and lunch ended December 22. The city started January 23 January 23 and then you became DPS July 23. Thank you. Right. Any other questions from committee members. Thank you, Chair. This is a question from a perspective of simply not knowing at what point is something permissible as an outside structure for smoking. So allows for the movement out of that space of the smoke. So it's no longer smoking inside a workspace as it were, or a public space. I'm equally enabling or stopping noise from moving outside. I find that a difficult square to circle or circle to square, if you know what I mean. Because both of those needs have to be met in this structure by the sounds of things, the dispersal of the smoke and also trying to limit the sound creating problems for the local residents. Does that make sense? How does one create a structure that meets those two needs. Thank you. So, I'm just taking comment in a second, but the your legal advisor will will assist. No doubt, but my understanding is for a smoking for an area to be a smoking area at least 50% of that area has to be open. So the at least 50% of the whole structure needs to be an open space to allow the smoke to disperse. In terms of using this area as a smoking area, this was from my understanding. This was a recommendation by your licensing officer, and this is where I would ask for felicities assistance, because should they license office, I had a couple of visits to the premises during the application process. And this is the conditions that she gave forward with after having such a visit. So if it is if you could assist on what the smoking area is what it involves where it is and how it relates to the outside yard area that you mentioned is now going to move to. So the smoking area was the average to was suggested to be a smoking area is our back area. And I think it was we can have six people out there. At one time, I don't know if that answers the question. Thank you. Yes, I guess it does. I suppose the issue in my head is is whether by its nature, it's really possible for any music to be played out there without it's still causing something of a disturbance. So the local population. So I guess it's an additional question. Sound limiter was is has been mentioned. Yeah. Does that have a specific decibel limit that will be applied there? Yeah. So, oh, gosh. No, I was going to say yes, it does. It's set to a limit that is deemed to be accepted when usually, I say usually this is not something that we have arranged with your environmental health officer, but it's something that we would seek to arrange. That it with his input as to how load or what level that limiter can be set up that he would deem not to constitute a public nuisance to the to the neighboring residents. So it'd be set at a certain time. It wouldn't be you wouldn't come and do this at two o'clock in the afternoon because the ambient noise of cars going past, etc. Would distort that you would come and set that sometime round about half past 11, 11 o'clock at night where things have quite down to the evening. And therefore that would have the effect that it would need to have. So it'd be my understanding it would be set by using the expertise of your environmental health officer as well, not just something that Felicity would decide that sounds loud enough. That'll do. It's done or kind of, I guess, scientifically than that. If you want to add anything for this to please. That's all good. Thank you. And just Councillor Burgess to express that. Obviously, when you come to make your decision about conditions, that's something you can consider a condition in relation to those levels being agreed with environmental health as Mr Gibson says that's a very. That's a very traditional way of doing it because they are considered the experts in determining what what decibel level would be appropriate in any given area because it said that is something as a committee that you can consider when you're making your decision regarding the application. Great. Thanks all. Thank you. I have another question to ask. So just to clarify the nature of the business. So it has been presented that subsidy is a lounge from yourselves. However, there's some references I think by objectors that it is a nightclub. So I just wanted to understand from your perspective. What is the nature of this business. It's so it's so restaurant. We're not a nightclub. Like I said, it's not a big space 25 to 30 people raving. It's not really a rave. We sell food and you've got music playing with, like I said, the speakers that we have and not even big speakers that small Bluetooth speakers we we listen to music through a phone. Yeah, it's not a nightclub, not at all. Okay. So once food is, you know, finished being sold, let's say around 11 o'clock from 11 to two o'clock, what type of activities ongoing between those hours. So, um, customer that out of our drinks, we've got board games. We've got, um, card games to play. And sometimes we have held like comedy nights. So sometimes comedy might be going on. Yeah. Thank you very much. Any other questions from committee members. Councilwoman Casey. Just one more please chair. Just one more question in relation to the activities of the lounge. Does dancing occur at any point. Whilst it's occurring the event. Well, we wouldn't stop anyone from dancing if the music is on, but we don't, um, we don't say everybody get in the middle dance. But of course, if people want to go up and dance sure they can do so. Yeah. So dance, dance the curse on the street. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, make that decision. Yeah. Any other questions from committee members. If not, I will move on to the objectives. So we have various objectives from the police, uh, engineer, safety community officer and from a resident. So the structure will change. Um, so for the objectives, I'll allow one objective to speak. Um, and then I will ask committee members to specifically ask them a question and then we'll move on to the next object to ask committee members to ask a question. And then the next object to just to make things in a little bit smoother. Um, so I'll just say that there's a, there's a message just come in the group that one of the objectives is not able to access. So I don't know whether the clock can just see if it's possible to resend the link so that that object can join. Um, Chair, I've sent it several times. I don't know whether I maybe send him a phone, a phone number that he could phone in. Just sorry, just to check at this point, given that they haven't been here from the beginning. Um, to my understanding, they wouldn't be allowed to speak at this point. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. No, they would be able to speak, but clearly they won't have had the benefit of hearing everything. So it may be that some of their concerns may have been addressed by what what's gone before, but I think it's important if we're able to get them access. Um, that we should attempt to do that. And if his link to teams, which the, the, the clock has tried repeatedly to send that isn't successful. If we can give him a number so that he can join. Um, I think one of the objectives is now saying that he's round at another object as house. It may be that he can join via that team's link. Okay, no problem. That's fine. Um, Harry, yep, he can join you. Yeah, that's fine. That's no problem. So I will now move on to Gilliam Pierce to make the representation on behalf of Metropolitan Police. Good evening, chair. Just so before you get started, again, I will give you five minutes to make a representation. Absolutely. Um, so you've received my objection objection and I had this to certainly raise more questions than it has answers for me. So I took over the licensing role for Lewis in place two years ago. Um, and when I first came over to, um, licensing just so that I can explain the kick a munch scenario. So we were regularly asked by the local authority to attend kick a munch because of the problems with noise with dispersal. Um, and generally move the way that it was being run. So we did visit there. We ended up issuing a closure notice regarding a dispersal and also employing a member staff that was in the country legally. So that was the history of kick a munch, then going back over the paperwork. So we actually received the license last year. So that city had taken over and that was May last year. Since May last year, several closure notices have been issued for the DPS was the DPS from kick a munch initially. And then she said that she didn't want to be the DPS. And then she after that she asked to be the DPS again and was told that she would need to reapply if that was the case. And that is when the current DPS took over. That was July last year, the end of July last year. Um, since June last year, as I said, there's been several closure notices and they have been because they were operating after hours with the shutters down and playing loud music and members of the public complaining. So we visited then and the closure notice was issued. They have also had the closure notice because I've had no DPS so they've not been able to operate without DPS. They also applied for a late 10 and this was refused and they had the 10 anyway. And also we've had complaints and we've been told by the Council or the local authority that there's been complaints regarding noise and dispersal. So I am unsure why the local authority of law. The reason that we've allowed the 10s is because sometimes you need to allow 10s in order to establish if there is a problem. So allowing the 10 to go forward. If there are no complaints, then you know there's no problems but that's not been the case. So there's been complaints regarding noise and dispersal. So that is the reason that we've been allowing the 10s. With regards to the outside area. So, and also capacity when this was kicking munch and I know it's not kicking munch now. However, when this was kicking munch, they didn't have 25 to 30 people in there. They were packed solid. And it was like a nightclub basically, there were there are tables in there but there are not many tables inside and the outside areas also got tables. The outside area, even if it is wooden and it was just a kind of temporary cover over it before. So even if it was is wooden now. Imagine if you were to put a speaker in a shed, how the noise that that would generate the shed also being a wooden building. So, with regards to the noise, I felt to see how having a wooden space outside would stop any noise. I also want to refer back to. So, recently, the committee held a, another hearing regarding a another venue, which is on the same stretch of vote on deficit high street. So, assuming that the committee said the premises on the basis of the committee determined that the premises hours should align with the preferred hours set out in paragraph 15.7 of the policy for bars pubs and namely your license black city should be permitted between the hours of 11 and midnight to some days. So, I thought to see how that would be fair if that premise was only allowed to operate until midnight, but this premise on the same stretch of road was then offered that it could open until three a.m. Also, can I just step in here, can I just step in here for the chair, we'll make sure this person you get your your allocated time, but clearly each application is judged on its own individual merits and that's, you know, that's an important point to raise. So, you have to have reference to your statement of licensing policy, which clearly you will when you retire to make your decision, but, but clearly each application has to be judged on the merits of that application, not by reference to what's happened to other premises. Whilst clearly you must take into consideration your own statement of licensing policy as part of your consideration when making your determination. And that's where I was going next. So, with regards to the statement of licensing policy. The hours of operation of any licensed external area requiring patrons return back inside the premises at a specific time licensing authority deems a closing time of 2200 hours for external areas is appropriate to promote licensing objectives. So, in dense residential areas, this may need to be earlier, any music played in the external area should also sees the number of smokers allowed outside the premises at any one time, you're at time. So, basically, what I'm saying is, this is a residential area, and I also say that this is a hub, a, as the licensing, as was mentioned in the licensing here in previously. This premise has only been open since June, or May last year and we've had lots of, we've had three closure notices already a breach of a 10 noise complaints. We haven't even been a year yet. Thank you very much. Committee members. I'd like you to ask questions, Councilor Jackson. Thank you very much. Hi, darling. A couple of questions from me. So you mentioned, not at the end that you mentioned the closure notices. Can I just clarify. First off, whether each of those closure notices are in relation to the, what I think was referred to earlier is the turning and firing around the identity of the DPS or were any of the closure notices related to anything else. Secondly, you mentioned that there have been some complaints are out noise in relation to the peer doing which the 10s were personal. Could you confirm just yes or no, we'll do. Were there any of those, those, those complaints went to the to the Metropolitan Police. And yeah, that should be enough to be going on with for now. So I believe one of the complaints did go and that was, I remember the public taking photographs and recording their noise coming from kick and munch when the shutters were down and there was a party going on inside. The, I can quickly go back through and see when the closure notices were. So just just to just to clarify, you mentioned that there were complaints during the period of the 10s were an operation which obviously since the beginning of this year and you mentioned kick and monster was obviously as the previous turn is really, really, really, really clear on this. Have there been any noise complaints or other complaints to the Metropolitan Police during the period that those 10s were running. Since, and, and, you know, sort of around the beginning of, of this year through to the now there's 21 10s in, in four weeks. We're operating without 10s, which is why we have tried to work with them to issue 10s. They have operated when they've had late 10s they've then held their events anyway. And the complaints. So, if they've come into the local authority and the local authority then say to the police, we've had these complaints then yes they are coming to the complaints they're not coming direct but they're coming from the local authority. Okay, in respect to the close notes that you mentioned, could you just go forward with those were any of those related to anything other than the challenges around having a suitable and and identify DPS. Yes, so there was only one for the DPS. Okay, what were the others in relation to you to just be really clear on that. So, like a city TV was another one, the holding a 10 I believe, reaching the 10. Just bear with me because it's all written down and I haven't written it. No, no worries that's absolutely fine. Just bear with me I've got pages for on here. Okay. Just to spare everybody, maybe rephrase the question. The, in respect to the other closure notices the ones that weren't related to the DPS so you mentioned CCTV and then there's another issue, which is, which is as yet on identified subsequent to those close notices, are you, have there been any recurrences of those issues, I, you know, if there was a close notice issue, for example, in respect to the lack of CCTV has that now been been resolved to your satisfaction as far as far as you're are any of those issues outstanding still or have they been, you know, so having so they've now provided the CCTV, however, that wasn't ongoing issue where they hadn't provided it. And we're, that had to be changed, but yes, you're talking in the past tense there. I'm asking for, for what. I'll talk about another bias. Okay. Yeah, but now that's all fine. Okay. Thanks. Yeah, no more questions, thanks. Thank you. Hi, thank you. I'm a little bit confused around just a couple of things that were raised. So, Felicity clearly said that the venue would hold around 25ish people, which seems quite small. And your self has says that the venue previously I know has much larger capacity. What size capacity would you say it would hold? The garden area, the covered garden area is quite big. It's quite narrow, but it's long. I would say, possibly for car like for car, you could get, if it was a car park for cars. And inside the venue. That's quite narrow and there's not as much room inside. So capacity wise, it's long, but it's narrow. There's enough room for a row of, as you go in, a row of tables and then there's the bar. It's not. And then I think it opens up to two, but I didn't offer two tables from memory. So it's narrow. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for the Howard. Thank you. The application is to do with extension of hours. Are you able to tell me whether any of the complaints since it became the different company relate to incidents in later hours. Either allowed or done when they weren't really allowed. The complaints that we had, yes, I've related to after hours. So after 11 o'clock. But beyond midnight or whatever. So after 11 o'clock. Let me go back through. I'll have to read, read back through it. I think in the interest of time, because we have quite a few objectives. All right. I might be a chair. I might be able to help just looking at the summary from the police that there were. There were issues in mid June in relation to complaints relating. So I think there's one on a record from Miss Pierce's log for the 29th of June, which says council received two noise complaints. And noise and music after 11 p.m. So that's one, that's one record. Yeah, I was just trying to help you, Miss Pierce, to kind of pull them together to help the, the committee have that kind of chronology. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm just going to ask a question, and then I'll bring Councillor, and I'm going to ask you to ask a question. And just to understand, so within your log, it seems that most of the issues happened around June. Can you talk about, consequently afterwards, have there been any issues that you have dealt with from that time period from June. Yes, so there were complaints in November. So in November, I actually dealt with when they had a 10 and they. It was late 10. It was refused on the grounds of the noise. So they had 19 people inside the garden area when the garden area shouldn't have been being used so they then put in for late 10 and I refuse that late 10 that was in November. Last year, and this is barely mine, they didn't start operating until May. So that's May to November. We haven't gone a period of time. We haven't even gone a year when there's been no issues. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Can I just ask for some clarification around there was an event or when the premises had closed and yet drinks were still being served. Can I ask for the date, the month of that sorry. There with me. Was it, was it before July. I should have it to hand I've just seen it but I just my eyes just lost sight of it. I'm so sorry looking at my own notes. Right, so on the 3rd and 4th November during the meeting and the mission was made that they are no one unaware of what they couldn't do and pointed out that the last institutions are agreed and emission. So they breached. That was in November. When they had people inside. With me, okay, and. I'm going to think in the interest of time because we have quite a few objectives, I think. Yeah, thank you. I'll just have a quick answer. It's sorry. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your. I'll try and be as quick as I can. In terms of the operators of CIP city. Can you confirm that none of them are coming. Sorry, the operators of it much. Can you confirm that none of them are commonly officers of CIP city. No, they're not now. Thank you. You did mention the issue of the DPS, but I think we've obviously now known a fleece of the current DPS and the other question is around complaints. You've spoken about the breach of the 10s and you spoke about some closure notices in terms of the complaints that be made around noise or any kind of disturbance. Have they been made at the time that the issues are occurring or have they be made subsequently. Ask them for the full of the complaint time and in what form phone call you know potentially. No, so they're made at the time and obviously we work closely with local authority. So the local authority when there is a problem permit is the local authority usually asks us to help how and go and visit. So that is what's been happening. So I'm a bit, you know, I'm confused as to why they haven't objected. Thank you. And on that point, and our legal advisor will interrupt me. If you think I'm asking the question, I shouldn't ask my first time on the committee, but I'm looking at page 63. It's entitled observations. It's where there are suggestions around what the conditions could look like if they were to be granted by the committee. Do you take, are you so not in agreement with any conditions that could make an application work for city or are you saying that actually they're current hours. They haven't even been adhering to that. What's your view, please. There's not been a deer into those conditions and also with the outside area, being a residential area. It's a contradiction to the statement of license and policy of having a residential area and a hub, having music going on until at night when in the statement of license in policy, it says an outside area should be 10 o'clock. And if it's a residential area, maybe earlier. Also, with regards to is it an undercover area or is it an indoor area or is it an outdoor area or is it a smoking area. You know, if it's covered, then it's covered. It's not 50% covered. It's covered. Should people be smoking in there? People are not smoking in there. Where are they going to smoke? They're going to be outside. If you've got six people smoking, then they're going to be talking. They're going to be laughing. And that's going to be generating a noise as well. So it's, it's raised more questions than it has answers, really. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Chancellor Burgess. Thank you. Another one that the legal officer might need to jump in on. And as a new member of the committee, I wanted to ask. I got the impression that something was being made earlier of the fact that complaints were generally coming in via the council rather than direct to the police. And I want to ask whether as a matter of law, it's relevant, whether it's going to the police or the council. No, really, because we all work closely together and a lot of the times it does go to the council. It's not just about venues. It's about anything, whether that be. It's not just about the disputes or anything else. This is a, it's a common practice that it will go into the council and we all work together. Thank you. That's helpful. Yes. Okay. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you, Joseph. A very quick one. You seem to imply that it was the police's view that the current license that the premise is also that the premises is not, it's not currently keeping to its license conditions. And perhaps, you know, separate to this to this issue is, is it, is it the police's intention to, to, to pursue that and to ask for it for the existing license to be reviewed? I'm just trying to get a sense really of how, you know, how seriously that the police is taking those, those, those concerns because obviously that would be a level of seriousness. So, is that, is that an intention that you have or not? Absolutely. We, we monitor, we monitor all the premises that we have on the borough. So if, if one comes to notice more, you know, then we would pay more attention to that premise and visit and do compliance checks. So it is something that we do. That is the role, you know, to monitor license premises. That's, that's fine. Thank you. Thank you. I can see, I'm still, you've got your hand up power, but this section, it's only for counselors to ask objectors questions. So unfortunately, you won't be able to speak at this section. Okay. Basically, is when you look at the police representations in writing that have been received in advance and then submitted in the bundles that were published by the council, there is absolutely no mention of the late 10. There is no mention of crow of noise disturbance in November. The last timeline from the police is the 31st of July, which says the DPS is now been changed to the premises license order and the section 19 closure order was listed. I must ask that anything referenced after the 31st of July be totally disregarded from this evening's proceedings for simple reason it was not contained in the original objection. Secondly, it's been raised without any evidence supplied to back it up. And thirdly, my client has had no opportunity whatsoever to consider what's been said and therefore make a suitable response. So I would totally ask that from the 31st of July onwards, everything that's been said by the police is disregarded. Thank you. Thank you for raising that point. Rachel, can you provide some legal stay here, please. Yeah, I can. Mr Gibson, you might have seen me furiously looking through the timeline that the police were going through at the point they were making their submissions. And I would agree, you know, evidence has to be served in advance to give all parties the opportunity to respond. And the timeline that I see does end. At the end of July and there is no reference to breach of the 10 or any of the issues in November and on the basis that that evidence was not served at least 24 hours before, which is what we would require of all parties to give everybody the opportunity. Evidence that's delivered on the day without that opportunity to have shared and disclosed that those submissions. I would agree. My advice to the committee would be that they have to disregard those submissions made by Miss Pierce at this evening's hearing they should have been provided in advance of this evening's hearing. Thank you very much about steer and any other questions from committee members. If not, I will move on to the next objector, which is Angela Mullen a saver sorry safer communities officer. Good evening chair. Evening. I'll give you five minutes and then we'll make an objection. I withdrew my objection because we agreed conditions and we agreed to pull back the hours. My objection was including the pack and then I think there was a withdrawal. So the in the pack the hours that we agreed were two o'clock closing and one that one o'clock for activities on a Thursday, and all the other activities, the times for the garden and the use. I will run there. They're all in the pack. Thank you very much. I'll move on to answer any questions if anyone's got questions. Any questions when we can you see. Yes. Hold. Angela, could I just ask you. Why are they really quite extensive. What a substantial extension was thought appropriate in terms of the local authorities policy on hours relating to particular areas of local hubs. Yes, that's no problem. So if in the policy as a preferred time, but that doesn't mean that is an end time. We look at each premises individually. And when the variations put in it was processed by Richard on the for it. So I've been to the premises and I've looked. They're hours for the garden, or I do believe to close music at 10 o'clock and the close the outside area at 12 o'clock. So when people are if they're eating outside, they can eat outside to 12 o'clock. But not with loud music with only background music between town and midnight. The premises have spent quite a lot of money on the outside space. They have downproofed the actual walls so far, but they haven't done the roof yet. They have had a quote, which I think was something like £20,000 from this that you can probably clarify that to put a roof. A soundproofing roof on the premises. And if you look at the conditions that I've said, it's very clear that they have to have a sound limit and there was no noise or vibration to admit the premises to cause nuisance. So we can give them to midnight. If we go get a complaint sound that the neighbours next door, the back or wherever are here in a vibration or a noise until such time as they have put this soundproofing on, they won't be able to use it. It's like anything we can say you can do this, but you cannot make a noise. You cannot disturb anybody. And if they do, then we will look at that and we can take it away or we can go for a review. But they're trying to run a business. They've spent a lot of money and the complaints I have not seen any complaints since the 10s in January. I'm not in the noise team, but any complaints relating to a licensed premises come to us. I have had two complaints come to me in the last few weeks since this application has been in process about noise from people leaving and cars and things which I've spoken to the premises about. So other than from January when they had all the 10s, the complaints that I've got are since the 10s about people leaving about noise, but we can't ascertain that those people that have making the noise getting in their car have come from. They've got a sick city. There are other premises there. They've got late life and it's very close to depth and market yard. It's very close to other premises like bust a mantis which runs a lot later. So we can't determine that the noise is from people leaving is coming from that premise. So that is why we've given them what we've given, but I have said in no uncertain terms in the conditions, no noise or vibration to cause nuisance. So if that means they can't use the area until they put in their soundproofing on the roof, then they can't use it. And do you have that authority to actually stop them until the improvement is made. That's what we'd have to do is obviously first would speak to them would try and witness the noise ourselves from the premise that's got the complaint. And if we say it is a statutory nuisance, then we would speak to the premises and say, you need to turn it down. The sound limiter would not be set by us to counsel. It has to be set by a qualified acoustic engineer and they determine the noise. If there is a noise or a vibration, we can tell the premises they need to get them back and lower it until at such time it doesn't close. That's without having to do a review or anything. Thank you very much for the greater explanation. It was better to have all of that as well. Thank you. No problem. Thank you. Councillor Atkinson. Yes. Hi. So can I just ask for a little bit of clarification. I think you said they were still waiting to have the roof done. But do you mean an additional soundproofing. I'm not going to add it to it because the electricity did say she, the roof had been done earlier. So just so the roof had been done. There is a wooden structure. And we knew one of my colleagues that deals with noise went to the premises and it was three o'clock in the afternoon. And the premises turned the music up as loud as it went. The premises, there's a gap at the back of the premises where cars come in and out. I stood there and I could not hear a word cleaning. So whatever they've done so far have helped, but I've said to them and they have got quotes. I've seen them for a proper acoustic cover to go on top of the or inside the new structure to stop fact down further. But obviously they haven't done that yet. They didn't want to do that until they were sure they were going to get their hours because it's a lot of money. Can I ask you a question? Yes, it does. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Angela, I'm looking at observation seven b on page 63. It talks about Friday and Saturday closing at 230 and then 230 then stopping licensed in activities at 2am. From your perspective in terms of preventing public nuisance, noise, asthma, et cetera. How material is the hour? From 230 to 330, two to three, please. It's all a point. You know, I can see a point and two to 230 is an extra hour. There are other premises there that open that finish later. And I just wanted to try and combat there being a conflict of people living this premise of that premise because then it makes it slightly easier for us to ascertain where the noise is coming from if there is noise. OK, that's really helpful. So this is really based on your attempt to somehow meet Sip City in the middle whilst using the fact that there's common shops and nightclubs except you're out there, but think at a certain time, and you want to ensure that you can see where the noise or nuisance might be coming from. Hopefully, I mean, it doesn't work like that, but, you know, people park their cars there and they get a train or a tram or they go out to other places and come back, but we're trying to work it so that we can see easier where noise is coming from, because the place, a bit further down finishes at one, one o'clock close by 130. And I'm not sure on the hours for the other one, but I think I looked and I saw it was three. Thank you. What my supplementary and perhaps Rachel can assist here is based on your advice that you know you deal with each application on its merits. The idea that there would be assessment as to the closing times of other venues to then determine the time you might allow or permit for a given venue Rachel just some advice around that. Perhaps it might be good on this section as well as later when we retire to discuss it privately. Absolutely each application has to be judged on merit, but as a responsible authority, the licensing authority have to understand how these premises will fit within the area where the premises being sought for an extension so it's entirely appropriate for Angela to have done that comparison to determine what she thinks is inappropriate, because even though, as Angela said, you have your preferred hours and it's in your policy. The final paragraph of that policy does make reference to the fact that you know you do have to judge each application on its merits so you have to take into consideration. All available information so that includes Angela's assessment of what would be appropriate for these premises in this location, taking into account what else is in the local area so that would be entirely appropriate. Thank you. Any other questions to Angela. Nope. Okay, I will move on to object number one. Object to one here. Nope. Okay, I'll move on to your object to two. Hello. Good evening. Can you hear me alive and clear. Yes, yes, five minutes. Hello, thank you so much. Good evening guys. Just quickly. I know it's very short time. Just quickly. I wanted to introduce myself. Just to mention that I did very close by to seep city, a couple of doors down. There was always an issue when whenever there is a party in seep city, I always had issues with them. There was always music playing very loud. It was keep repeating. It was happening. I mean, I don't know about the tense when the tense were happening or when the it was just a regular event that's supposed to finish at 11 o'clock, but actually it kept going longer after 11 o'clock. I'm not sure about that, but there was always an issue. It was always difficult to find any solution to find any kind of a communication with the with the guys from seep city to find some kind of a solution between the neighbors and between them. It seems like it was always about the business. It was always about making money, not really about the neighbors and about the struggle that we struggling to sleep that we struggling to have a kind of a quiet and peaceful time. I think that the closing time that proposed closing time are not acceptable. I think that 230 and 130. It's very light. This is the time for people to sleep. And as you already know, there is a lot of residents living around the place. I know that this is that for high street, but there is some kind of a limits. There is some kind of a balance. I believe, of course, I'm not saying that the place not supposed to be open, but I'm just saying that it's not supposed to be open that light because there is people that work. And they want to have a normal quiet life and it seems like whenever there is a party going on, we are part of that party and we got no choice. We have to be part of that party. I think that the proposed hours, there's going to be no one policing them, even if they're going to be in place, if they're going to be granted, there's going to be no one policing that. I believe that because of the previous experience and previous proof that there was always trouble going on and there was hard with communication. I don't think there's going to be anyone checking on those hours checking on the volume and making sure that it's switched off on time. Also about the amount of people going outside. So I'm really concerned about that. And I don't believe that this is going to be happening. And there's going to be anyone kind of interested in doing that. I also think that it's going to come to us again to us residents that we have to put ourselves in the shoes going to that place at two, three o'clock in the night, asking the people to turn them using them because we want to night sleep. It's dangerous. We don't want to put ourselves in this situation that we have to leave our houses and go to the place where there is drunk people when there is alcohol, when there is allowed music, we don't want to do that. That's why I don't think the late hours proposed are the good hours. Why should we put ourselves in this situation that first we're going to offer late hours, and then when the problems that they're going to start happening, then we're going to deal with them. It's going to take it's going to be time consuming, and it's going to be a long process that it's not always effective. So I think we should just make it kind of a balance for everyone and kind of acceptable for everyone. There are also a couple of other things why I still have a little bit of time. I just wanted to mention about the small speakers. I don't think that there is a small speakers in that place I've been there to complain couple of times I saw the venue myself. There is a DJ booth. There is a proper party. There is a proper dancing, not just talking playing cards and playing board games because this place it's too loud for doing that and it's actually a proper party place. Some of the things are just not exactly the way they are also with covering the roof. I mean, the roof is just a piece of plastic. I understand that there is a quote for a new roof, but again, I'm not sure if that's going to stop everything. All the noise from happening and also wanted to mention one last thing that obviously after closing time, there is always people around. There is always people hanging around in the groups. There is always cars playing loud music, honking and picking up driving around the venue late after it's closing. So it's not just going to be two o'clock and it's finished. It's done. It's going to be later after that, especially in the summertime when it's warm and people are just going to be hanging around until five o'clock in the morning. I live next to that place. I know it's going to be exactly like that because I've witnessed that before many years I've been leaving here and it's just happening. So that's what I wanted to say. Thank you for your time. I really hope you're going to think about what I said. There is a lot of residents and there was always troubles. We always had problems with sleeping and having a peaceful time around. I understand that everybody needs to make money. It's to make business. You have 30 seconds left. Thank you so much. But like I said, there is people leaving around. There's families. I mean, we just constantly feel whenever there is a party we constantly feel like we are in the middle of the nightclub and we just want to our peace and quiet. Thank you so much and have a lovely evening. Thank you for listening to me. Bye bye. Thank you. Can't stay Jackson. Yeah. Hello. Thanks. Thanks very much for your representation. You mentioned some issues you've had with the venue in the past, you know, sort of having to go down there or, or, you know, challenges you've had. Could you clarify when those issues are big? Because obviously, well, as we've heard earlier, there's been a change of ownership. There's been a change of, you know, sort of the people running the venue relatively recently. So I'm just trying to understand, you know, from your perspective, if, you know, when those those kind of challenges were. So, I mean, you know, is that, is that very recent? Is that, is that last year? Is that more historic? Could you clarify when some of those, those issues that you were referring to taking place? Because obviously, and also, could I clarify, in relation to any of those, those issues, have you, have you made complaints? To the licensing authority or others kind of formally during during any of those those challenges? Thanks. Yeah. Hi. So we just wanted to mention that I mean, the events in the city, they were happening like not every weekend, like regularly, but not every weekend. So, yeah, just following up the question that you mentioned, I did make a complaint. I did make a formal complaint. It went to, I believe it's called the ABM news shows control. And they've sent me kind of like a graphic with the kind of a schedule that I have, you have to put the date, you have to put the time, and you have to kind of carry on for four weeks. And because I think it was a quiet period, then there was, like I said, it's not happening regularly. It's not happening every weekend. It was a party, then it was a bit quiet. So I kind of left it and I didn't come back to it. And most of the complaints, they were just kind of a complaints directly to the owner of the place and directly to the staff of the place. So the only kind of official one was the one I made to NBA to M ABM, I believe. Sorry if I, if I got that wrong. Yeah, just referring to like when I was complaining. So it was more towards kind of a new year, probably after New Year, there was couple of parties. I do have to admit that recently, subsitting got a little bit more quiet for the last couple of weeks for the last couple of months. But unfortunately, I do believe it's because, I mean, they are applying for the license. They don't want to kind of stand out. They don't want to kind of, you know, get in trouble. So I'm sorry, but I'm, I kind of believe that. It's not because things changed. I think it's more because, because of that reason. Okay, that's helpful. Thank you very much. No problem. Thank you. Thank you. Councilor Hiding. Hello. Muted. You're in me at Councilor Hiding. Thank you. Sorry, everyone. Yeah, thanks, Chair. Thank you. Mr. Objector. She wanted to ask about the time of the week that you kind of experienced the disturbances, particular days. Is it the weekends or is it throughout the week? And also to ask about in terms of the noise and the disturbance. Is it kind of more disturbing coming from the premises itself? So hearing music, or is it kind of disturbing to people kind of leaving and being around the premises? Thank you. Sure. So, yeah. So, so basically, just following the question, it's, it's a little bit both, to be honest with you. It's also the sound coming from the premises. I mean, I know that there was a mention about small speakers again, but I mean, you really, you can really hear the base. And even like I mentioned, I'm in the next building, which is around five doors down. I can still hear the music up to the point that with close windows, I can hear the bass and I have to use the earplugs to be able to get any kind of sleep. So that's one problem. And also, as I mentioned before, I mean, lack of control, what's happening outside. I mean, how many people there is outside. There's people hanging around and there's people on their cars. And I know it's hard to kind of control this kind of a situation being a door person. You're not going to go to a car that is parked three cars down and ask them to be quiet. I mean, it's dangerous for everyone. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm saying. I mean, like those things, they, they are really hard to be policed and probably some of the door stuff. They're not going to be willing to put themselves in the situation that they have to kind of complain, ask people to be quiet. Well, you're dealing with the drunk people. I mean, it's a dangerous situation to be in, I believe. And yeah, I mean, it's both just to answer a quick clear question. It's both. It's a little bit the noise, the bass, the sound coming from the venue itself. But also, it's the, it's the people leaving the place being loud being in groups, very often just kind of a drinking outside the place going to the kind of a side street side roads next to city and just carry on drinking talking smoking urinating and just doing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And just a quick follow up question if I major. Yeah, go for it. So, so you're saying that over the last few months, they haven't been as made disturbances and you haven't heard as much. I just wanted to see if it's possible to cross reference that to when I guess the most recent improvements were made to the garden. The measures taken around, you know, kind of adding to the shared or soundproofing as it were have had that positive impact. So I guess a question for the objective also, if it's possible to bring in the applicant to understand when those improvements were made. At this section, it would you, you're only allowed to ask a question towards the applicant towards the object. Yeah, we've heard representations from the applicant. Okay, thank you. Thank you. So, you can answer the question. It was, it was there after the improvements were done was it got any better. I mean, to be honest with you, I think it was just the level of the amount of the parties that was happening. It was less than before. It wasn't about the, it improved the sound level or improve the kind of a control of people outside the place, because it didn't. It was exactly the same. I think that only kind of improvement was that there was a less party is going on. But when the parties were going on, when they were happening, I mean, it was unfortunately. Yeah, disturbing. So that was that that's the answer. Thank you. Councillor in the case only had your hand up, do you still have a question or no, Councilor Hodden asked that question. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions from committee members. If not, I'll move on to object for one. I believe they're in the room now. Object one. I sent her an email to say that she would be next chair. So if she wants to check her email. Is object to one in the room. Okay, I'll move on to object to three. Okay, I'll move on to object to four. Hi, that's me. Yep, you have five minutes. Please, given we've heard a few objectives, please don't make any comments that have already been made before. Okay, just to say that I live on the rear of the premises, I've been there for about 20 years. The noise nuisance that we usually experience is from music being played in the rear yard. And possibly in the inside the building, but with the doors open. It's been noted the yard does have a roof, but it is quite like construction. And I think the problem is that we get noise that comes from the gap in between the building and the roof. It's amplified up and it's it bounces off the back of the building towards the flats. And the fact that you can't hear it at ground level isn't surprising because there are things to block the noise when you're standing. As a, you know, five thoughts, whatever, when you're higher upon a second or third floor, which is what I am, then you get that music coming straight at you. The lack of firm that I think the applicant pointed out there weren't any complaints between January and March, which to me isn't surprising. It's raining. It's cold. People don't really use the back garden because it's not very, you know, it's not covered. It is covered, but it's not very warm. So I'm not surprising that that outdoor space was was not providing that kind of noise. We all have all my neighbors and I in the blocks behind have a dreams that face onto that onto the back of depth at high street and a lot of the, my neighbors have young children of school. So there's a lot of children living in the estate behind the property. Just talking about the, just mentioning some points that were in the police objection. I, I wasn't actually aware that there was a license condition that the outside space couldn't be used after nine at the moment. I mean, that's not, that's not visible on the licensing list that's on the website and to be honest, I can't say that they've ever added to that. I'm not sure how that plays out when you've got 10, whether you still aren't allowed to use the outdoor space after nine or whether that changes, but in my observations, they've always used the outdoor space after that time there's been no sort of quietness happens at nine o'clock. I'm not going to go into the details of the things I picked out from the police objection because so I think a lot of them support what we're saying. Just, you know, sort of reiterate that. One thing I wanted to say as well was the fact that we're being expected to be given a phone number to ring up to ask them to turn the music down, and that is supposed to resolve the issues is in my view is totally inadequate. I've been to the premises before, not for some time, but I have been over there. And when you go down there, as a woman at midnight, you have to get out of bed, you get dressed, you go down, you have to go and have the door and could they get the manager to come out. There are people outside inside people drinking. It's not something that I want to have to do. And similarly, it's not, I don't want to have to ring up at midnight and wait for something to answer the phone. Or, you know, if they don't answer, do I have to leave a message? Are they going to ring me back an hour later? What is the process for that? There is no policing of that. I wasn't aware that we could make complaints about noise to the police. I've always made complaints to the licensing department when I've made them, and I can also say that the only reason I'm able to do that is because I'm aware of how you do that. There was somebody who was experiencing noise, and I went to look on the website to find out how to complain. I would be lost. There is no information on there about how to complain and what to do if you're suffering with noise. And my final point that I wanted to make was the application mentions seasonal variations which hasn't been raised yet. I'm aware that a lot of places have seasonal variations in place for things like Christmas, New Year, I can accept that that is something they would want to do. As people would expect that, but having extended opening hours on Nigerian Independence Day, when that day that changes every year. So if you were to allow that this year, for example, it's on a Tuesday. So that would mean that we would be experiencing noise till three o'clock on a Wednesday morning, which is unreasonable. It could be a Sunday. It could be a Monday. So, if that is my final point, if that is included in the, in that any granting of this application that I'll find that very difficult to accept for that reason. It's not a day before a bank holiday when people are normally off. It's, it could be any day of the week. That's, that's unfinished. Thank you. Thank you. Can you see me in those? Do you have any questions for objective four. Councillor Burgess. Thank you. I suppose not question is such just an observation, but in the absence of any kind of scientific report, if you like, on how the acoustics move in these situations, it's helpful to hear from somebody who's in his higher up and in those facts behind is all I want to say. So thank you. Yeah, if I could just respond to that. I think it's also because there is no, there's no real, there's nothing to block it. I mean, if you know anything about acoustic waves, you know, they tend to bounce off things. They can be funneled up into higher spaces. And so, you know, I think those sort of things are worth remembering if you've got a gap between a roof and, and there's people, you know, there's music being played there, it's generally going to go out where it can get. Thank you. Chair, if I may, I just have one question to ask objective four. Sorry, my mute button is sticky. Go for it. Have a go and ask your question. Thank you. Just for your own for my colleague, Councillor Burgess, and in relation to I think he's object to two. He mentions that there has been a difference, some, some perhaps less parties in the last few weeks or more. So we're object to four, any anything you can add to that point. I can't. I've not actually been here for I've been away. I've got a partner who's not very well. So I've been on and off in my property. So I haven't, I can't really add anything to that. Okay, but can I just confirm then to, or to ask you the question, have you been at your property in depth. Since sick city took over the license and if so, how frequent to please. Oh, yes. Yeah, it's only really in the last couple of months that I've not been here so much. We can not so much so. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Any other questions from committee members. Object to seven, do you have a point of order? Well, I'm confused. If you have me down as objector seven, it was just I had a little note from Claire saying I was objector one and I want to apologize everyone if I was objector one. I thought I was seven, but if you think I'm seven, I can wait. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Can I just come in here? Yes, if that's okay with you. I think this objector should go next please. Okay. Thank you so much and apologies. I have lived on Deaf at high street for 35 years. I live diagonally across from SIP city. And I just want to say that yes, I know what the dates are and I wanted to clarify some of the dates because according to companies house SIP city was incorporated on November, 2022. And you've said they were licensed from May, 2023. I don't know what that means to anything and overlapping, but I'd like to make that point. Another little point of order, if they're building a shed in the back, they have to have planning permission. And it's my understanding that the previous owners did ask for a shed, and it was refused. Otherwise, if it's open, it's not going to stop any music. So I think it's kind of a moot point to say whether the roof is insulated or not. It makes no difference. But going on, I would like to start with parking and traffic because actually that's the thing I noticed most. And while the community's officer said to me, said before, oh, you can't tell where they come from. I can promise you, I can tell where they come from, because I look right over there. The people that go to Badger Badger are at least a block and a half up and they don't park up on the pavement all over my front door. I can tell you that is as recently as 16th of the 1223, I had to walk in the street at two o'clock in the morning. It wasn't loud, but there were cars all over the street at two o'clock in the morning, and there were people inside Sip City. And it was, and there were people, not just the owners, they weren't just cleaning up. So I wanted to put that in and they're definitely parking there. There are people's room, the cars revving, going in and out, coming. They're their music booming, and the noise. There is no other late establishment on this block, and the block above me, and sorry, the block to the south of me and the block to the north of me. The only one in those three block areas is more leaves which shuts at midnight. And that noise is just from the mopeds picking things up. So I just want that to be clear to everybody because it frustrates me that that's what the community's officer is saying, because there isn't one. The other thing that they do at Sip City, and that is since this even made the 2023. The gates go up and down and up and down after the closing time and sometimes they go up and somebody comes out with a bottle and fills a glass. And I've seen that on many occasions, there have been assaults and things that have gone on. That was in the police report, I think you'll find that there was a dispute between a man and a woman. Whilst one police officer went around the corner with a woman, somebody came out from Sip City and filled somebody's glass. And there's often shouting and smokers at the exit. So I just, you know, we do witness other crimes too. And I cannot remember and I apologize for this but I know I'm called the police. When people came out of Sip City, about six, seven, eight people came out of Sip City, saw them do it, were very noisy, went into Morleys and harass the worker at Morleys, which is about two or three doors south of Sip City. So it does, it very much frustrates me and to the point of the reporting. I have reported online. I know from other experience with the Lewisham website, whether it's ordering new bags for rubbish, or even Lewisham education. There's so many broken links on the Lewisham website that even when you do report things, they don't go through. You can't, I didn't know you could go by police because several years ago you had to do it through the council, because the police wouldn't answer nuisance calls. So I just happened to know those, those particular things. I wanted to have 30 seconds left. Oh, well, I'm probably going to repeat myself so that's fine. I think I got most of it. Thank you. Any questions. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, just to ask, how many times you reported any complaints. Yeah, to the council and particularly, I guess, in the space of the last, between now and last summer. Yes, and in the summer I would concur because we have our windows open and they have their doors open. It's more. I would say between say, July and September, at least, and this is conservative half a dozen times. And that would be at least between July and September, December. And as I said, January, February, March, that does tend to be quieter, but I have at least three or four times complained either online or sent to emails, either to my counselors and copying the, you know, the department, the licensing department at the council and sometimes copying. And I think this might have been a previous colleague to Jillian Simon Butler. So I've made different complaints in different ways because they don't always go through. Thank you. Any other questions from the committee. Okay, I'm going to object to five. Yeah, there are two objectives left, maybe one would like to speak. If there's no objective five, I move on. Hello. Hello, sorry, no, hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm trying to establish if objective five is here, if there's no objective five, then I'll move on to you, Harry. Yes, this is five. It is, yes. Okay, thank you. Harry, you have five minutes, please don't make the same remarks that have already been said. The time starts now. Okay, so I live. I can hear the bass. I can hear the bass, I can hear the bass, I can hear the bass. I can hear the bass, I can hear the bass. I can hear the bass, I can hear the bass, I can hear the bass. I can hear the bass, I can hear the bass. He couldn't get access through his link so that's a way we spoke to Claire about this so he actually invited him over to mind so that he could speak. So that was Duane, please excuse me. Okay, just before I move on to your presentation, Harry. No, okay, Harry, I'll give you five minutes. Please don't make any remarks that have already been said. Thank you. The time starts now. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, I actually live about it's in the next block up north. I've been here for over 25 years raised my two daughters here on the high street. And I really, really love that for very much as it's a very, I think, a well known, very special character across my two decades here I've had a chance to reflect on this character. And I've come to the conclusion that what makes that for such a special place is that and bringing such a wide array of people do all kinds of things to live and work together is rooted in two critical things. It's home to both residential and commercial users and the intense proximity with which they coexist. You come to the high street during the day and you'll no doubt see a busy high street for the shops and activity at ground level but look up and sitting atop that high street is an effect of residential road. I included a graphic which showed you how much residential amenities surrounds this, this premises. Now I'm really worried. I think it's so important that you understand this because I think that for this is actually really quite unusual. It's almost like the original mixed use development that architects and designers up and down the country. We would give a high teeth to be able to create out scratch. And I think we need to, what I feel so upset about is that the current licensing team seem to take the decision that the licensing team did take back in 2020 for their new policy. We need to be completely ignore ignoring it. We they recognized how precious both the residential and commercial dynamic was, and that with the this new interest in enterprise on for late night enterprise was a was a risk to that residential community. This is, you know, I think the residential community provide the backbone, the residential population provide the backbone to that for its community. They provide a 24 hour presence, which I think has helped make that for the much safer place than it might otherwise be. If you erode the quality of residential amenity in this area, it could very, very quickly turn. I also want to take up that the term noise nuisance doesn't do the, do the actual experience of noise nuisance at nighttime justice during sleeping hours. This decision isn't a simple matter of finding a compromise between two independent interests as I think Angela seems to suggest attempting to establish some kind of midpoint, which we might all be grudgingly agreed to. This is about understanding a line at which basic living conditions are threatened in order to prevent real harm from occurring. There's tons of evidence that porcelain is a major factor in all matter of comorbidities, and when you consider the demographic of the residential population, this really becomes, I'm afraid it really is an issue of social justice. Therefore doesn't have an army of letter writing retirees like they do in black teeth, and this point cannot be emphasized enough as it illustrates the responsibility contained within your decision tonight. But I can't quite, I just want to, sorry, please excuse me, I'm wanting to not make, make sure I don't repeat what other people have said. Yes, one of the key things that we talked to the licensing authority when they develop current policy was the concept of an evening economy. And this is, I think this is really important to understand the whole community of debtford residential and commercial can have their cake and eat it. If debtford has a thriving evening experience, it could be the best evening out in London, in which the life of the day continues to thrive after the shop shut at six with people enjoying the company of others and all kinds of ways. But like Cinderella, the clock strikes midnight and the ball has to come to an end and bedtime is observed for the life of the whole community, your job here as representatives of the community isn't for a single business owner. He's asking the community for the privilege of making money out of their expense. Your job tonight is to understand what that means. I really can't emphasize this enough. I see this as a real issue for the future of debtford, if we want it to continue with its very, very positive spirit that it has built up over a long period of time. It's a delicate thing. We've been living here many, many years. This is a new business. If he, if the business owner thinks that late night hours are important for his business, he should go to a location where late night hours are established is really, it is really, really that simple. I don't know why we're here. I really don't. Thank you very much. Thank you. Any questions from the committee? So Harry. Councilor Jackson. Yes, thanks, Jeff. Thank you very much. Sorry. In passion. As always. So, just to clarify, you mentioned you're living the next block up. Are you similarly having what we've heard from, from some of your, your neighbors there in terms of your, your, your having issues hearing that. You're, you're just the next block up to the north. Is that right? And you're, you're, you're. Sure. I'm at 198. And so I'm. Okay. When before me, he's at the houses at the rear, which are affected by the garden. My only experience of it is actually when the, when there are big parties, when they've been big parties and there's lots of cars and it's, it's almost like the, the, the high street becomes the venue. Is the simplest way of putting it. Right. Okay. No, that's helpful. Thank you. I just wanted to, to clarify, just sort of exactly where everybody is in, in relation to the venue. No, that's helpful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions from the committee? Thanks for having. Thanks, chair. Yeah. A question, yes, for both Harry and Dwayne. And again, related to the kind of recent. What has been like recently, and it have been improvements noticed. Since beginning of this year. Yes, yes, improvements, but that is because. It's, it's seasonal, no one wants to party in nightclub in the winter, as soon as we start getting the long summers, that's when it will noise will start. Thank you. I'd also like, I think what you're trying to say is has, has with the new owner, well, the new DPS, we have a new professionalism is kind of really what you're asking. And in a way, I'd like to. Joy attention to the actually simple planning issue of that structure at the rear, that that is clear, but there's a real problem there. I mean, it doesn't, you know, it shouldn't. It shouldn't be there. And if it was there built to its proper standards, then it wouldn't be appropriate for smoking anywhere. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, thank you. They tried, apparently they tried, but it got rejected. Chair, it's just more legal. Yeah, I think I'm going to come in. So planning a different considerations. It's not a matter for the licensing committee to make any determinations in connection with, with planning. It's not appropriate. You don't have the authority to consider planning that that's a matter for the planning committee. Sorry, um, objects to seven, unless it is a point of order you want to raise, unfortunately, you've had your time. Okay, I'm going to take that as you just put your hand up by mistake. No, sorry, I forgot to unmute. There is a point of order in terms of the legal thing. Yes, I know that you're licensing that we're talking about licensing. But if they don't have planning permission to build a building out back, which won't be a smoking place, then they can't do it. That's all. And I think it's important to realize that. Thank you for a point. I don't know if it's going to be the same answer again, or this is a licensing committee, not a planning committee. I read the comments that I've made previously. So that would be a matter for the planning committee and enforcement action. If there's to be any illegal building of structures that don't have the relevant planning authority, that would be for your colleagues in the planning committee to address those concerns. Thank you. Any other questions from the committee? Okay, I think that is all of the objectives unless I've missed anyone. Okay, I will now move on to. The applicant to sum up briefly, and we can make a team in representation. Thank you, Chair. Good evening. Once again, you've heard enough a lot this evening regarding noise nuisance and so forth. And I think it can be dealt with quite simply you heard from the applicant some time back. The capacity for the premises is 25 to 30 people and she'd be grateful that she got 25 to 30 people. I think what you're hearing in terms of parties DJs. She becomes the venue, etc. I think we're getting a little bit confused with the previous owners. You've heard from the police themselves that said it was absolutely packed when they had the premises. They're obviously trading here as a different style of operation. And my client is quite clearly said she is not a nightclub and she's described the type of business that she wishes to operate, which is far and away from a nightclub and as she said, it wouldn't be much of a nightclub if there was 30 people in there. I think what we're hearing an awful lot of the concerns come from previous, and we really have to disregard what we don't previously because kicking the munch is getting all relevance at all to to my my client going forward. You've heard a lot about complaints, but one thing you haven't seen at all. Is any evidence. As I said to my client before we started, I could tell people I went to the moon last month. I can tell them I went, there's no evidence that I'm not trying to be flipping here. I'm just trying to say, especially the police come forward and say certain things happened that they provided nothing. We have had noise complaints. Where are those noise complaints? What dates did they refer to? What times did they refer to? You've heard no detail whatsoever committee on any of that tonight. You've just heard sweeping statements that there have been complaints and there has been noise, but nobody, the police, nor any of the objectors have actually come forward and said, on this particular date, at this particular time, there was this particular problem. And therefore, I don't think you can take that into account going forward to make your determination here because you have no concrete evidence. I think that's all I'm going to say. You're at time anyway. I think it's important to remember the capacity figures that my client offered. I think that's probably one of the most important points for this evening. Thank you very much for your time this evening. Thank you. Thank you very much. Again, we have a long list of objectives to make a representation. So I'm going to ask to please make it brief and please don't repeat anything that's been said before. So, object to one, or object to seven was object to whatever I am. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And, you know, I appreciate that the solicitor is working for the venue, but there is evidence. It has been it is with the council. It's with Richard Lockett. It's with the police. It was in some of the papers. And when I refer to dates, I want to remind the committee that I refer to dates past. May 2023. I've referred to at least three dates after May 2023. One of them was the 16th of December, where I had to walk in the street to get home at two in the morning. So, I, with respect. I would just like to point out that some of those things are there. Thank you. Thank you. Object to two. I don't think we had objects to see, maybe it's objective three. Object to three. Okay. Object to four. Oh, hi. Yes. I think I would just like to simply point out that the figures for the capacity. I don't know how those come about. I assumed that the applicant has some kind of insurance, which covers the number of people who they can have in there. So, I would have thought that would be a useful thing to refer to. I can't imagine how you run a business with 25 people. So, I think for that amount of time between 11 o'clock in the morning and three o'clock in the following morning and naturally make money out of it. Thank you. Object to five. Dwayne has had to go to bed. He's got he has a very early start. So please excuse me. No problem. Harry, then I think you're going to last subject. So you can sum up. Yes, I mean. Yeah, there's so much. Not really what's been discussed here. The. You talk about examining each application on its merit. I'm not quite sure I understand what is exceptional about this application against the standard scenario across the high street. I really, I really don't. And I'm, you know, I asked Mr Gibson, you know, where does he live and how good his night sleep is if he understood the impact that noise nuisance makes. I don't feel I really, really. This is this, you know, when you're dealing with the population, as as Helena said, who might not have the. Even the knowledge that they have the right to complain, let alone. How to, I mean, we've just discovered now that we can now call the police. This system requires in order for it to work, the checks and balances an excellent, an excellent process for making complaints, like a really good one. Otherwise, I think you need to apply a really, you know, a kind of precautionary principle, which is what you see in current policy. It's current policy. I can't for the life of me understand what Angela is thinking in reducing the hours from three 30 to two 30 was it three to two. What material difference is there. It makes no sense. If anyone has tried to, you know, I don't know what her sleeping patterns are, but it makes no sense. That's all. Thank you. Thank you very much. We've had all the conclusion. So I'm going to move on. I'm satisfied. Point of order. I believe that we, we haven't had a summing up from, from the police who were also an objector. Thank you very much for that. Police. Do you want to sum up. Obviously they have been complaints and as one of the objects has said rightly that they've gone through to Richard Locket and Richard Locket is the one that's passing information on to me. I don't, I haven't written all the dates down. I think sleep deprivation is a, is a huge thing and it affects all of your life. And I think when making this decision, consider how you may feel if you had this venue in close proximity to your own home and now music and this disruption that is causing. Thank you very much. I believe objects are seven that hands a legacy hand so I'll move on. Felicity, do you have a point of order you like to raise? I just wanted to make a point. All of them. I think objector seven said something about 16th of December, but we had a 10 on that evening. Just wanted to let everyone know that. Thank you. Am I allowed to speak? You might say more. No, I mean, that's not necessarily a point of order, but we'll move on. It's fine. Right. I am now satisfied that members of this committee have read and heard all information required to make a decision before we leave this hearing and proceed to the vote. I need to ensure that every member who will be voting on this item has been present throughout and has had no internet disruptions. So, please can each member now confirm that they have been present about this item and have heard all the evidence. Councillor Atkinson. Hi, President. No issues. Thank you. Councillor Brown. All present and correct. Thank you. Councillor Burgess. The president. No issues. Councillor Harding. President, but my internet did freeze for about 10 seconds earlier. No problem. Councillor. Sorry, that was my time. Councillor Jackson. So confirmed. Thanks, Chair. Thank you. Councillor on the casey. I can confirm your questions. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I've heard everything. No interruptions. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hold on. This meeting is now closed. Members are now deliberate in another room and a decision will be sent out within five working days. This meeting has now ended. Thank you. Bye bye. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.