Transcript

(machine whirring) (machine whirring) (machine whirring) (machine whirring) (machine whirring) (machine whirring) (machine whirring) (machine whirring) (machine whirring) Good evening members, and members of the public, and any press attending. The Annual Council Meeting of BCP Council, 7 May 2024. I'm Leslie Deadman, and as Chairman of BCP Council, I shall be chairing this first part of the meeting. Just a few housekeeping arrangements for this meeting, please. The meeting is being recorded by the Council. The Live and Subsequent Board, the broadcast, sorry, will be published on the Council website for a minimum of six months. And in order to ensure the meeting is managed effectively, please could everybody follow these ground rules. If you wish to speak, please raise your hand clearly to indicate and as a matter of courtesy, can members indicate to the chair if they're leaving the meeting? Obviously, we try not to do that in a debate, but often we have to. Right, agenda item one, chief executive, can you read out the apologies received from this meeting? Due to a small technical hitch, I'll read out the apologies that I've got. Councillor Hazel Allen, Councillor Julie Bagwell, Councillor Millie Earle, Councillor Anne Filer, Councillor Paul Hilliard, Councillor Lisa Northover. And although it isn't an apology, I do have one welcome, which is Councillor Gavin Wright. Nice to see you, Gavin. Yes, who is it, Councillor Wilson? Are any of these microphones working? Thank you. Yeah, can I give apologies for Brian Castle? Councillor Brian Castle. Cheers, thank you. That's it, thank you. Okay, item two, declarations of interest, chief executive, any declarations of interest received? Thank you, chairman. None have been received today, but if members are aware of any conflicts, if they could follow the flow chart that's set out in the agenda for the papers for this evening, thank you. Right, agenda item three, election of chair of the council. This is where I hand over to the vice chairman to take the chair, although not literally, thank you, just from your own chair. I don't think it would fit in my dining room. Right, Councillors, I seek nominations for the election of chair of the council until the next annual council meeting in 2025. I can second, Councillor Lassie-Deadman. I think the mics only work one at a time, so if any others are on, no other one will work. Any other nominations? Okay, thank you. Thank you. Does the proposal or seconder want to say anything? Very briefly, in the last 12 months, I would suggest that Councillor deadman Leslie has shared this council with skill, authority, good humour, fairness, inclusivity, efficiency, confidence, and two things that she has needed, I think, patience and tolerance. I think she is to quote, I can't remember where this phrase came from, but at times she's had to be an iron fist in a velvet glove, and she has also chaired the council with what I would call our Marnie style. I have to say, proposed. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, Councillor Moore? Yes, thank you. I would just like to say that I think that Leslie is an excellent chair and public face of BCP Council, and at council meetings, I think she's efficient, effective, and certainly keeps us all in order. But she does it with a smile and a charming sense of humour. Thank you. Councillor interjecting. As there's no other nominations, I think we can accept that Councillor deadman is the chair. Would you like to say a few words? Councillor interjecting. Thank you very much. I, Councillor Leslie deadman, having been elected to the Office of Chair of BCP Council, declare that I take that office upon myself and will duly and faithfully fulfil the duties of it, according to the best of my judgement and ability. I'm going to sign the declaration. Sorry. Sorry. Councillor interjecting. You'll be glad to hear that the newly elected chair may wish to make a speech. (LAUGHTER) Well, thanking the outgoing chair. So, I'm quite happy to thank... (LAUGHTER) I'm going to thank the outgoing chair. I've really been a privilege to represent BCP, and I've been to many, many functions, and I've introduced visitors and attendees at conferences to BCP. BCP is far more well known in our community and beyond, although not always in scurrilous magazines, and our hard work to promote our area is really paying off. I represent the Council only where born with Christchurch and pool are all involved. And, of course, I'm often mistaken for the mayor. Some of them are very disappointed. But although it's getting around that the three have become one, we're all remaining very, very independent in our towns. I was going to put a quote in here, and then I realised that certain Councillors, and I'm looking at Councillor Waters, will know nothing of this quote. In 1992, Oliver... (LAUGHTER) Speaking of Erralis Horribolas, the Queen said, It has not been a year of undiluted pleasure. Well, I have had a year of undiluted pleasure, and I've been much helped by wonderful Vice Chair Councillor Bawl. Councillor Bawl has sat beside me and prevented me not seeing those wishing to speak. However much I might wish not to see them. (LAUGHTER) And, of course, I want to thank the civic team, particularly Hazel and Caroline, who work very hard behind the scenes. Neil, Richard and Sarah, all the drivers is Jeff and Co, and they certainly go the extra mile when they're taking you anywhere. And all the officers in the Council for advice and assistance, because you do need it when you're in the chair, there's often so much to think about. But most of all, I want to thank you, the members of Bournemouth Christchurch and Pool Unitary Council. Some of you I've known for many years, and some I met at the start of the year, and you've all been a pleasure to work with. It's been a step back for me to see some of our new members staring in disbelief at some of the more arcane points of Council meetings. And I do remember when I first entered local government, I found raising one's hand to vote. Seems very much like a Heil salute of agreement, and it's quite bizarre. And as for calling someone leader, that's even more bizarre, but apologies leader, I have got over it now. And I hope we can all appreciate the way local government works in meetings, the need for the audit trail, the need for clarity, and the need for a structure. It's not inhibiting, it's the way that we should work. And for the other members who've been in this chamber over many years, and you are so patient in meetings as we struggle on, and you two have been a joy, not you two, Phil, or you one, just all of you. So thank you, all of you, for making this a very happy year, and for making the meetings of a very large, very varied council so productive, and I've been very proud to be in the chair for you all. So now, I should be very proud to be back in the chair after that little digression, and thank you all so much, and thank all the officers on the platform as well. Thank you. Right, back to the agenda. Item four, election of the vice chair of the council. Councillors, I seek nominations for the election of the vice chair of the council until the next annual council meeting in 2025. The proposals will have the opportunity to say a few words about the candidates. The candidates may wish to say a few words. Do we have nominations for the post-advice chair? Thank you, Chair. I would like to nominate Councillor Simon Bull as vice chair. Thank you, Councillor KIDL. Do you want to say a few words now? I would just like to... I will project my voice for you. I would like to thank Simon for his service as vice chair over the past year. As a new member and a new green member, it has been inspirational to see how far greens have come. Simon was our first green member to sit in this chamber back in 2015 when the balance of numbers was very different to what it is now. Since then, we have doubled and even tripled our numbers, and I'm very proud to be able to nominate Simon from the floor. Thank you. Thank you. I believe we have a seconder in Councillor Trent. Thank you. Yes, I would like to second Simon and just say that he's had a reasonably relaxed year because yourself as Chairman have been there throughout the whole year, but I know that I've done events as Deputy Mayor of Pool with Simon and I think we even have Deputy Mayor of Bournemouth at that one. It was a complete meeting of deputies and I think Simon does an excellent job and I'm more than happy to second him before the noise gets a little bit overwhelming. Thanks. Thank you, Councillor Trent. Any more nominations for the position of Vice Chairman? I think that's long enough to wait for any hands to go up. Right, Vice Chairman, come up to the dias. Oh, you're here. That's good. Well done. Graham, can you get me through? I, Simon Bull, having been elected to the Office of Vice Chairman of BCP Council, declare that I take the office upon myself and will duly and faithfully fulfil the duties of it according to the best of my judgment and ability. It doesn't let me near the fountain pen. You can say a few words. I'll say a few words. Thank you. Thank you very much to my proposal. Councillor Keddie and my seconder, Councillor Trent. It is an honour to be up here and I'm very proud to be asked to serve for another year. This previous year I've enjoyed it very much. I've been to a few events, very few because Councillor Devlin is so dedicated to the position that it's very rare for her to pass anything on to me. But I have been to the National Beach Volleyball Finals on Bournemouth Beach and a few other events, taking the salute at the air show, which was most enjoyable, a number of cultural events which have opened my eyes to some of the communities that we have within BCP and it's fantastic to see them thriving. Yes, and my thanks with Lesley's to the drivers and all the officers for all their support over the last year. Thank you. Thank you, Vice-Chairman. Agenda item 5, review of the political balance of the Council, the allocation of seats on the committees to each political group and the appointment of Councillors to committees and outside bodies. I now call upon Councillor Slade, the leader who I understand will propose the recommendations in this support. Councillor Slade. Thank you, Chair. First of all, can I join you in welcoming Councillor Gavin Wright to the Council? Obviously, this political balance has changed not because of his election, because obviously the seat did not change hands, but mainly because we have a second planning committee which has made a review of the numbers on a number of other committees. But I hope he enjoys his time as a BCP Councillor. This paper comes to us to update the political balance to ensure that all of the relevant committees and outside bodies are filled with their relevant Councillors and continue the work of this Council. There are five recommendations before us. The fifth recommendation is to be deleted. If items A to D go through, we won't need E. So we're going to take them one by one so that we can actually make sure that we get everything correct. The first recommendation is to approve the political balance as set out in Appendix A, Table 1, and then in Appendix A, Table 2, we actually have the named members of the various committees. So we're going to go through that one, and we also have a list of specific outside bodies. I just wanted to clarify that all of the other bodies to which many members of the Council are appointed are not reviewed at this point. These are only the ones that are politically balanced, and there is a piece of work being done being led by Janie as the monitoring officer to review all of the other outside bodies and appointments that were made last summer to see which of those groups are still needed, which of those groups no longer actually exist, and which ones don't want any of us on their committees anyway. That work we're hoping to bring to Council in July. The other item that we would normally be brought tonight would be an update on the motions and correspondence that we've had with Government, but given that this paper had to be released during the pre-election period, we don't think that was appropriate to bring that forward, and so that is going to be taken at the June meeting as well, so you'll get updates on all of the motions that were put over the previous year. So I just want to table this paper and ask if we can take each item one by one because the result of one may impact on whether we need the following item. Do you have a seconder leader? Oh, sorry, do I have a seconder? Sorry, my deputy leader is on well, so. Great, I'm quite happy to second, Chair. Right, thank you, Chairman. I'm so sorry, thank you. Thank you, Leader. Well, I don't think I want to be Leader, thank you very much. So sorry, thank you, Leader. And members, who wishes to speak on items on this recommendation? Yes, Councillor, over there. I wasn't sure what you meant by taking items one by one, but I presume with we can speak on any of them. Is that right? Yes, each one. Yes, so I wanted to speak on the item of the swapping over the places for the Planning Committee. So I've found this very difficult issue because I believe that it is not good practice in planning to swap over to have more people from one area on one committee and one on another. The reason I believe that's not good practice is because as planners, we should have a hat on that doesn't just look up one area but looks at the whole thing. And that was my view on that was reinforced by the recent training. So I am not really happy with that and don't feel like a vote for it, but at the same time on the other side of the argument, I recognise that in pool. We don't have an ideal situation. We don't have a town council that can speak up for our area like Christchurch has. And so I can completely understand why pool councillors might want to see more pool councillors on that Planning Committee. I don't believe it's a solution, but I won't vote against it because I believe that we need to be looking for a better solution, which I believe would be to have a town council for pool. Councillor Charion, or I believe you've indicated. Thank you, Chair. I thank Councillor Eigenhead for her, whereas on I too have reservations over the way that the two Planning Committees are being set up. One of the issues with Planning is that we'll quite often have schemes come before us which have ramifications for the hold of the three towns rather than just the east or the west. And so therefore, actually having a broad split on each committee, I feel, is the way to go forward. I will therefore not be supporting that recommendation. Thank you. Councillor, yes, I can see somebody waving, but I can't see who. Yes, thank you, Councillor. Yes, I just wanted to speak on this. I was on the Constitution Review Working Group when it was originally discussed. I've since become Chair, but it wasn't then. And I'm a bit concerned about the swap meeting these committees are moving away from what I initially thought they would be when we initially discussed them. So I was happy to support the two committees plan on the understanding that they're not supposed to be area committees. The objective, as I understood, it was supposed to be specifically to alleviate the workload for the one big committee to free up capacity, allow more time for the public and for decisions to get adequate hearing, which to my mind is a good thing. The division could have been along any lines, not necessarily geographical. We talked about various options. We decided on east and west as that was how the staff were already working and because of the benefits of having a geographical split. But I was reassured that these were not supposed to be area committees for Christchurch and Paul as each would be subject to the political balance rules. So I mean, for me, I hope that to what others have said, I thought that was important to be the case because there's no reason you should only be making decisions on your area when it comes to the planning. So, yes, I just wanted to say that I'm a little bit concerned that various moves mean that these risks, these committees turning into Christchurch and Paul area committees. And the obvious question is then, then what about formats? So, yeah, difficult sport in that one. Any more speakers? Councilor. Councilor. So my understanding was that the idea of setting up two committees was that councillors involved on each committee would be more. Local to what was being discussed on the actual committee. So it was a bit different from what went through A&G. I suppose the switches that have been put forward between Paul people in Christchurch independence are relatively minor in terms of the grand scheme of the whole committee. So I personally wasn't worried about it influencing too much sort of the overall balance of the committees. And then just one, I can see what people are saying as well. One other point is, I suppose, somebody raised the distance aspect. So if we've got somebody from Hamworthy travelling all the way over to Highcliff, I suppose from a carbon footprint point of view as well as all the other reasons. And that could be put forward. Thank you. Councillor Farr, were you indicating a ward just sort of? No, obviously not. Sorry, Chair. Councillor Farr, were you indicating? Thank you very much Chair. I think Councillor Rice forgot to leave something in our presentation. Would you be so kind to indulge you? Thank you. Councillor Rice. Thank you so much. Just one other note is for those that it maybe hasn't been explained to you. If anybody votes against it, then it stops Christchurch independence and poor people from being able to swap. So one person voting against it stops the swap. So just so that everybody understands that. Thank you. Thank you very much Chair and congratulations on your reappointment. And I echo others that you're an excellent Chair for the Council. And I hope not to experience the iron fist with velvet glove. So on A and B, I understand from the debate the discussioning, I myself have a personal issue with it because political balance is there for a reason. We, as was mentioned by yourself Chair, we are three towns. We have our own identity, but we are a unitary authority. And we have to deliver for the whole of the unitary authority rather than those particular seats which may vote as in. So I'll find it not possible to support that particular change to political balance, which is A on the chart itself for the Eastern and Western planning committees. The other thing which I'd like to say that on B on the charts itself for the appeals committee where the rule engaged are not able to take their chair on that committee. I see that in the notes that it says that it's within the Constitution etc. But I request that the Chair of the appeals committee actually comments on the value of Councillor Rigby in a time that he's been on the appeals committee would help to decide me on that one if that's possible. Thank you. So, of course, Councillor Rigby is the Chair of the appeals committee, then I would prefer a comment from the Vice Chair. Thank you. Councillor HOWL. Thank you, Chair. On a little bit confused because I thought you weren't allowed to exercise any political meanings in that quasi judicial committee. Therefore, the political balance should be slightly irrelevant in terms of those committees. The real benefit of having relatively local Councillors on a planning committee is that they have more knowledge and probably take more interest in that local area. And therefore, decisions are likely to be better decisions as a result. Thank you. Councillor JOHNSTON. So, I wasn't particularly keen on splitting the committees. I didn't see a need. But the one benefit of splitting the committee seemed to be that we would have an East one and a West one. And if you were sat on that committee, you only had to boffin up on half of the geographical area. You know, being on planning committee is a big commitment. And if we're not going to have the benefit of having Councillors based in the East, on the East planning committee, based on the West planning committee, we're literally making this the worst possible idea. Can we not take the one good bit of having the two committees and just do that, just do the one good sensible thing? I mean, as it's been pointed out for my colleague, it's a quasi judicial thing. I don't use those post-hand. But, you know, it's one of those things where our political ideology shouldn't factor into it. Even I get that, and I'm rubbish at all the Councillor nonsense and bureaucracy. I think we should just get on with making a sensible decision. Any more speakers? Excuse me, sorry. Right. If there are no more speakers, Leader, do you want to sum up on the whole thing, but particularly what's been debated, which I think is... Yes, of course, Chair. So, it is unfortunate that the very sensible suggestion has been made by Councillor Joseph. Is it my phone, is it? Okay, there we go. I think the very sensible suggestion that's just been made by Councillor Joe Samar that people that know the area are probably the best people to sit on the planning committee is the most sensible thing I've heard all night, Joe. So, congratulations on that. Yeah, I mean, you know, we've heard the discussion. It's obviously has been through the constitutional working party. It's been through audit and governance. I think the comment that what about Bournemouth is a slightly strange one because Bournemouth is in the eastern area, primarily with a few of the wards. Bournemouth has the joy of being on both committees. I think that's, you know, that is how a special Bournemouth is, primarily on the east, but with a bid on the west. Yeah, fundamentally, you know, if somebody chooses to vote against item B, then that is unfortunate because we are going to have people who are having to take a seat in an area where they are not familiar with the workings and the local community. However, the advantage of that is, of course, that they will not be in any way conflicted because they won't actually be dealing with a thing in their own patch. You know, we are where we are. I would like to see people support A and B. If they can't bring themselves to vote for B, then we have to move on. So, if we're going to take the votes one at a time, please, Chair. Thank you, Leader. Now, members, we're going to start on this recommendation. A, the revised political balance of the Council has set out in Appendix A, table one, B approved. Do we have consensus on that? Agreed. Thank you. Item B, oh, sorry. Who was not? Who said something? Councillor McLACHLAN. What? Councillor McLACHLAN. We need a vote of a show of hands, then, George, do we? I'm referring to A, the revised political balance of the Council has set out in Appendix A, which is the whole thing to be approved, George. Were you with us, sorry? Table one, sorry. Appendix A, table one, be approved. We all got that on our papers. Agreed. But item B, the allocation of seats to each political group has set out in Appendix A, table two, to be approved. I believe this is the one that was had dissension. Yes. We're going to have a show of hands on this one, members. All those in favour? All those against? Abstentions? All right. So, is that the one that fails with this? So, members, that has failed, although the— Oh, so sorry. Leader? It was about C, so if you want to finish B and I have an amendment to C. Sorry, isn't it, catch that? Do you have a? Sorry, Chair. So, it seems that item B has fallen because the one person has voted, more than one person has voted against it. So, on item C to vote on, that is table three. And on table three, that would mean that in column one, under Western BCP Planning Committee, we would have the addition of Councillor Simon McCormack for the Christchurch Independence. And under column—the second column, Eastern BCP Planning Committee would be the move of Councillor Rice onto the Eastern Committee. So, that restores the status quo. I think that is what you need the amendment to be, is it not? Am I correct? Yes, Leader, you are correct, but we would also have to amend table two to reflect that, because table two is the numerical allocation of the seats, so we would have to amend table two to reflect the change in the named membership in table three. In which case may I propose that we amend table two to reflect that remove the little bracketed A by Christchurch Independence and a dash and replace that with a one with a two next to it for Eastern. And underneath it for poor people, we change the two to a one and remove the little bracketed A and put a one. And then in table three, we make those named amendments as previously advised. Can I clarify whether the same matter in relation to the failure to take up the place on appeals by the Paul Engage Party was also disagreed with, or does that go? Because if there's dissent, surely there's dissent and that member should have to take up their place, shouldn't they? Thank you, Leader. We're just waiting for the officers to make a decision. Chair, I've been advised that we have received notice that Paul Engage have chosen not to take up that seat, so that seat is for Council to complete. So does that really need an extra recommendation to allocate that seat through the full Council? Yes. So just to clarify, Chairman, we think we need an extra recommendation to allocate that seat if Paul Engage is not going to take up that seat on their appeals committee, so we would just need to add that as a recommendation F. Sorry, Chair, but can I just clarify for the purposes of all of us who are slightly confused, does any member have the right to decide they don't fancy taking up a seat? And presumably that then means that it doesn't show when they fail to attend, because if they give, they'll have zero attendance, but if they have failed to take the seat up, it won't affect their attendance, which is incredibly unfair for other people who are doing their duty and who are turning up week after week, month after month. So, Chair, the principle is that the political allocation of seat, proportionality for the allocation of seats is carried out under Section 15 of the Local Government Housing Act. That's the statutory function that we have as officers have to allocate, and that is done on a set of complex calculations as you're all aware. It means that as officers, we have advised that the calculations indicate that Paul Engage, apologies if I get confused myself, have been allocated a seat. They are absolutely legally entitled to not take up that seat as a political group, so they can give that back and it will be full counsel that then determines who will sit in that seat. So from our perspective, it will be for political proportionality calculations of Paul Engage Seat, but full counsel then determines who's taken that up. That is different to an individual member failing to attend a meeting and having an attendance record. This is a political party under Section 15 and Section 16 of Local Government Housing Act who have chosen not to take up the seat that is statutorily allocated to them. No, no, I respect your position, Madam Chairman, I will stand if you allow me. I find it intolerable that the leader, as you so name her, Councillor Vicky Slade, has decided to slate Paul Engage because of the inability to take up this particular position. I had a long conversation with our head of democratic services and we discussed this matter in full and he explained that if I were to write to him in the terms in which I did, all would be well and there would be no matter or consideration other than for the vote to go through this evening. I therefore feel that Councillor Vicky Slade's intention to embarrass me is unfair and uncalled for and I would like that noted in the minutes, please. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Barts. I'm going to ask the officers quite where we are in this discussion. Chair, just as the sake of clarity and thank you to Councillor but for clarifying that position, Councillor but did indeed have a long conversation with the head of democratic services, has sent written confirmation and is legally obliged to do so as a group leader for a political group. The position now is that there will be an additional recommendation that full Council is asked to fulfil the seat on the appeals committee, which I think is the one in question, and that can come from a nomination process, Chairman. So there is a seat available and it's full Council to determine who takes up that seat, which could be tonight or it could be a decision which is adjourned to a future meeting. Councillor McCormack. Thank you, Chair. This is a seat on the Western planning, Eastern. I think there's some of us in the back there are getting a little bit confused about what's going on here. Thank you, Chair. Just to be clear, this is a discussion about the allocation of seats on the appeals committee, where one group leaders indicate that their group does not wish to take up the seat. So to be clear for members, the choice is we either put that to the Council tonight if there's a nomination, we could defer the consideration of that seat and bring it back to the next Council, which would give us time to have conversation with group leaders about whether anybody wants to take that up. The problem for us is that the not enabling the, whichever it was, Table 2, to go through the Council has identified there was another change that wasn't debated. So that's why it's come out in discussion. That's why Councillor SRI raised the issue. My suggestion to be fair would be that we defer consideration of that to the next meeting, bring that as a specific recommendation, which would allow you to vote on the allocation of seats, as described by the Leader, the Swaffen Councillor's McCormack and Councillor Rice from East to West, and would allow you then to vote on that and take that through the organisation. We can then bring a subsequent recommendation to the next meeting on that other allocation. I'm advised that we shouldn't be reopening the debate on this, so unless it's desperately, you know, it's going to help us in anything because I think we're getting more and more confused, to be honest, I certainly am. Chief Executive, what do you advise that we should do on this then, please? I think it depends on whether members have a burning point they want to raise. I know there's three hands that I've got up that I've seen, but it does mean reopening the debate. We've had the Leader's summary on it, so it would be unusual to reopen the debate once you've had the summary and starting to put the recommendations. George, are you point of ordering? I am. I believe an amendment has been proposed, so therefore that allows for another debate, Chair. What's that seconder to do? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but the amendment shouldn't have come when it came, so we ought to move from recommendations. Councillor, it's your meeting, Chair, and you can use your vote. Councillor, just for clarity, I proposed an amendment because recommendation B were fell and therefore we had to propose an amendment so that recommendation C was changed in two ways. One, to put the other people onto the planning committees as they would previously have been, which there seems to be agreement on. And secondly, to clarify whether we had to vote on the failure of the Paul Engage Party, not an individual, but the political group, to not appoint either of their members to that committee. That was an amendment, which I believe we can debate an amendment. I also ask the question whether any party can decide to do that, and whether it would impact on their attendance. I was advised that because it wasn't an individual, it wouldn't affect their attendance, which feels very unfair for individuals who have been allocated a seat and are unable to attend, and whether perhaps the answer is for them to not take up their seats, which is a reasonable question to ask. If you feel that we need to now postpone that item, it does beg the question what happens to recommendation D. Councillors, there's quite a debate going on up here, so I think we might as well carry on in the Chamber and do it. I think I had first. No, the other way round, Councillor Dorton-Gibson was a very, very— Thank you, Madam Chair. Councillor interjecting. I'm so sorry. That's okay. Could I just point out that the table, as is written, already proposed is the replacement, Councillor Rigby. It has three stars, and if you read the footnote on—so we don't need to amend that, we just vote it through with that already in there. I have another hand over there. Thank you, Councillor. Thank you, Chair. In waiting to speak, both the Chief Executive and my colleague Councillor Dorton-Gibson have done my work for me. It was simply to point out that because the appeals committee part of it fell because of the voting down of B, it doesn't seem to me that the appeals committee part of it does need to fall because we already understood. We'd already had outlined to us why it was there. I understand that we now have an amendment proposed, but the appeals committee part of Table 2 was, as far as I'm aware, the only thing that was said about it was we needed to hear some words of commendation about Councillor Rigby sitting on it. Sorry, Councillor Hadley. Did you not indicate Councillor Hadley? Well, I did, Chair, but it was exactly the same point that I don't need to say. It is just that it is in the table, so if we're amending columns A and B at the table and leaving the column of the appeals committee as it is, then that suggests that Councillor Rigby is the nomination. Thank you, Councillor. I don't think we mind debating the same point over and over, do we really? But still. And on that note, Councillor Broadhead. No? Unless you want me to take it? Well, no. Is there anybody else indicating on this point first? No. I'm going to go to the Chief Executive and the Monitoring Office to see if we've come to any conclusion after all this. I see the computers whirring up here. In respect, Councillor Slade, as the leader, is correct in putting forward the amendment to recommendation, sorry, C. Because the effect of, just to take a step back, recommendation A arises out of section 15 of the Local Government and Housing Act, which is the statutory allocation of seats to political groups, and it's done on a complex calculation. Recommendation B is section 16 of the same act, which is that the Council adopts the political wish of the allocation of seats, which has now fallen because we had some dissent to that. The leader is absolutely correct that the recommendation of C has to be amended because Table 3 is currently written on the premise that Table 2 would have the full support of Council with no dissent whatsoever, so it would have the consensus. So on this occasion, Councillor Slade is absolutely correct that there has to be a formal amendment to Council to amend Table 3 so that it reflects the political proportionality allocation originally given to group leaders. Under section 15 of the Local Government and Housing Act, so on this instance, it was correct to give the amendment at the time that you did because the vote on recommendation B has proved that that recommendation has fallen. And so we have to amend the paperwork and full Council has to therefore vote on the amended Table 3, which reverts back to the position. And just to be clear on the position on the appeals committee, Table 3 has drafted, includes the reallocation of the seat from Paul Engage to Councillor Agree. So that is taken to account in that revised version. I'm going to take the last speaker on this, Councillor Joe Sammon. Sorry, so I totally followed the debate because we just had a discussion where there was going to be a change for political balance, which in my mind made a lot of sense, not because one person, but because there was any amount of objection that didn't go through. It now sounds like we've got another situation where we want to provide for political balance again where Paul Engage aren't given a seat on. So Paul Engage are going to have a seat on the appeals committee. How aren't they meant to have a seat on that committee? But I didn't think that's, I mean, when I worked at Safeways, when you turned up for your shift, you couldn't go, oh actually I don't fancy being in the bakery this week. Can I go on the checkouts or can I just not do the bakery? Isn't it just the same? Oh, OK, all right, sorry firm, that's how this works, Brill. Thanks, Councillor Sammon. And I think this is part of the point I was making about how local government works that unfortunately we're not as clever as Safeways half the time. There we go, never. Right, OK. So sorry, I'll be carrying on with this. Councillor Rampton, a different point I'm assuming. Sorry, thank you, Chair, I didn't hear you. I just want you to say, I think it's entirely inappropriate to be having this conversation. I think we can all see that the one member of Paul Engage who's here tonight is actually quite unwell. And this is really embarrassing and humiliating for her. She's taken up her right not to take that seat. And I'm sure as the, I don't know if I'm current Chair or previous Chair or whatever, but I'm sure that Councillor Rigby, who has been an asset to the Appeals Committee, will be an asset in the forthcoming Municipal Year. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. Was any, oh, Councillor Rigby. Sorry, Chair, I thought I might as well speak, just while my name's been bunted around everywhere tonight. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, so we voted on that for Council for the Green Party to take the seat which Paul Engage didn't want to take up. And we were happy to do it because we were the one political group which wasn't already represented on the Appeals Committee. I put my name forward to fill it, and I've done two meetings so far, and it's been all right. But honestly, if anyone else wants it, and this is a problem, please put someone else's name there and let's talk about them. But for now, for this movement of Council, we're happy to continue having it as the Green Group. We're happy if someone else wants it, but if you want me to, I'm happy to also continue and sit on that committee. Thanks. Yes, do come forward. Hi, as Vice Chair of the Appeals Committee, I would like to second Councillor Rampton's nomination for Councillor Rigby to stay on the Appeals Committee. Thank you. I think the officer thinks that doesn't need doing. I don't think it was. I think we need a seconder for Councillor Slade's amendment to total three. Yes, we're now going to this amendment for table three. We have seconded Councillor Slade's amendment. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Cox. I was just going to say we need a seconder, but now we have one in Councillor Cox. Thank you. Councillors, if there are no further debate. Right, no further debate on this. I'll wait till Councillor Farr resumes his seat. Does Councillor Councillor speak? I don't think Councillor say that. Right, okay. Are we all sitting comfortably? Now, we've had a full debate on that. I don't think anybody can be confused or shouldn't be by now. Councillor Cox, you're seconding. Did you want to speak? No. Certainly not. Thank you. So members, we are... The Councillor said on the summer. Oh, I thought Councillor Slade had summed up originally. She'd summed up something else. Councillor Slade's summer, please. I have nothing to add. Thank you. Right, so members, we are now voting on the amendment, which we now understand, I hope, two, the amendment on table three, which is on C. Can I just have clarification from the Chief Executive or the Monitoring Officer that we're doing the right thing? Right. That's right. So members, would it be best with a share of hands on this or do we have consensus that we agree? Phew, thank you. Well done, everybody. Right. So that was item C, I think. Good. So just getting item C and its amendment. Item D, the allocation of seats to each political group. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. That's really good work. And E, subject to D, requested to approve the appointment of unaligned members to the relevant outside bodies. No? Not needed. Okay, that's good. We don't even need E, so we've finally finished. Okay, back to the script. Right, that seems a long time ago that we started on agenda item five. It's now, oh, close the meeting. Thank you, members. Oh, we have another apology, which we need to know, which was Councillor Pete Miles, who is unable to attend. Okay, thank you, members. Can you remain seated until the live stream has ended, and then I will... (sound of water running) (sound of water running) (sound of water running)