Transcript

There was a challenge at the moment, obviously, Cardiff's in a good position being a capital city but in certain areas we are looking to develop our workforce and any changes will be supported by that. We've got a mixed, I'd say, use of facilities for community use so we're looking to try and get a bit more consistency across the city in that regard and also we want to try and reduce our carbon where we can as well. This is obviously in the context of finite financial resources. In terms of stakeholders, we've had two key groups that we've been engaging with over the last couple of years developing this strategy. You've all met Cardiff influences and I think they get a standing round of applause, which was really good to see last time, and you heard from them about some of their feedback and they've been fantastic understanding the needs of the city and some of the challenges that we have to deal with. We've also had a stakeholder reference group which has been a bit of a mixed group, including head teachers, chairs and governors, trade union colleagues, partners across the city as well. They've been fantastic. They've given us a lot of time to help us develop the strategy and a lot of what their feedback has, a lot of the feedback they've given us has directly fed into what we're producing today. As I said, they think there's a lot of things going positively within the city, but there are definitely areas for development as well. In terms of the actual strategy itself, we want to be aspirational, equitable and sustainable. From the conversations we had with our stakeholder groups, they wanted to make sure that we were ambitious in bringing forward a program where we did have a focus on educational outcomes, but we did also, they wanted us to pick up the uniqueness of the capital city, particularly around the diversity and the wealth of opportunity that comes through from being a capital city. That's what we try to pick up as we've gone through in the strategy documents. Just before I get into more detail, our overarching education strategy is card of 2013. The values are stated in there and these are educationally focused and that's really the main crux of the program of why we're bringing it forward. And then going into the details, we've got our strategic aims under each of those headings that I mentioned previously. We've got six strategic aims. Number one is improving educational outcomes for our investment. Number two is working with partners, particularly in the area of post-16. Number three is, as you probably expect to see, ensuring a better balance and distribution of places. And then number four is making sure that inclusion is included in every school. So if we are looking to bring additional places forward to meet the demands that we've got, what we don't want to do is reduce the amount of inclusion across the city. So actually inclusion in all schools is really, really critical to our program in addition to those places that we're bringing forward. Number five is under sustainability. So we're looking at bringing forward effective, efficient, and flexible education infrastructure. And number six is instilling a community focused schools approach. As I said, trying to get a bit more consistency across the city there. So in terms of what this looks like in the strategy, you've obviously had copies of the strategy, so I won't go through this in any detail, we can do that after the presentation. But this is the sort of information that we have included in the strategy, and it kind of outlines why we're bringing forward a strategic aim, how we're going about it and what the success looks like. So that's the overarching strategy bit. Now moving on to the rolling program. So what we've looked to do here is we've tried to take a sort of sequential type approach to this and make sure that we've got a systematic approach and what we've done here. So we've started off with the vision and strategic aims of the strategy. From that we've selected some data sets that we feel can support decision making in those areas. With data sets we've applied to existing schools and that's effectively given us a long list of schools that we can then develop a series of options for. So from that long list we've developed up those options. We've applied a set of investment principles that have helped us whittle down that long list and then we've found that that long list was still too long so we've applied some specific conditions there and that's given us our list that we've been presenting today. Just to flag that any of the projects that are identified in the program, the program's indicative, every project will be subject to business cases, both internal and external. So we'll have an internal business case process and then we'll need to go through Welsh Government business cases like we normally do. Once we go through that internal business case process that's when we'll be identifying funds for the individual schemes and obviously considering the wider cases for each one. So in terms of the types of data we've considered, now these have been focused around sufficiency, condition, suitability, addressing disadvantage, financial sustainability and carbon one planet. What we will be looking to do is develop data sets around post 16 and also community-focused schools as we go through the life of the program and the strategy. So these are the robust data sets that we can utilise at this stage. So sufficiency is both looking at surpluses in the estate but also where we've got shortfalls in certain areas, localities around places, we've got condition, we've used the actual asset program spend rather than condition ABCs and Ds and that's given as a more accurate position of the asset position across the estate. Suitability our best data that we've got on that are the Welsh Government ABCs indeed criterias so if you utilise that there, disadvantage as a whole range of different measures that we could have considered and we felt that we are ranking including free school meals, AL and EAL, were the way forward there and then financial sustainability and this is looking at cost per pupil excluding SRBs and through so looking at that core offer of the school and then we've got a range of data through a company called K2N we work with that monitors our electric and gas data and we're working through water as well. So in terms of how we have applied that so this shows the ranking grid effectively that we've applied against the existing schools so these were weighted so we've applied a set of weighting and 30% efficiency, 30% condition, 5% suitability, 10% cost per place, 20% disadvantage and 5% carbon, just a flag that with sufficiency and cost per place is quite a lot arguably crossover particularly if you've got surpluses in a given area so that's why we've got cost per place as a lower weight in there. And then going on to the investment principles nearly done, I can assure you, going on to the investment principles, we've got a number of principles that we've applied to provide the options so as you'd expect alignment with local national policies, we've got targeting our investment through new bills so when we're bringing forward new bills making sure that we do address as much as condition issues that we possibly can do, bringing sort of sustainable levels of surplus across the estate, balance of ALM provision, meeting legislation requirements and reducing the reliance on borrowing, having robust business cases. So when we then applied a set of conditions on top of that to try and reduce things down further, that came brought up. We applied these criteria so we've got condition debildings, they're the ones that Welsh Government would dictate that we prioritise first so we'll be looking to bring those into the programme. Any schools that are, any projects that are high risk of not meeting statutory requirements, we've got investor save over the short to medium term and then we've got section 106 so these are where we've got commitments already, contractual commitments so you've got ones that we can cover their own costs through reorganisations and ones that may not be able to and then but we still have those capital obligations and then number six are investors save projects over the medium to long term and then number seven are just projects that are aligned with national and local priorities. So just running through that in a chart basically in a graphic form, that's kind of what it looks like. So one of the last few slides, so these are the projects that we're bringing forward. If you look on the right hand side we're looking at a total investment of 675 million over a nine year programme, as I said this is an addictive programme at this stage until the projects have gone through business cases. So Cardiff's contribution to this would be in the region of 204 million, subject to affordability as I said. We're going to have to look at funding strategies associated with these projects as and when they come forward. We'll be looking at things along the lines of LDP contributions, capital receipts, capital financing and potentially we may need to look at school contributions as well. So the projects, these are not in any priority order, so these are just a list of projects. Now, so the first one, the primary provision in the Fitz Allen catchment area includes a condition D school, the strategic ALN citywide investment, we see this being a really critical project and where we'll be looking to hopefully deliver a step changing of investment there. Now that will be utilising the whole of the existing tea glass site as part of that citywide investment. Then we've got other projects as well, so the consolidation of Katay's high at ATFE. We've got the LDP primary schools that we've already got committed and the North East and the West. We've got community focused schools provision as well. We've got St Mary the Virgin, now this was picked up in Band-A, went into Bambi and now it's part of the rolling programme. We've got citywide primary investment generally speaking and then we've got North East LDP primaries and West LDP primaries and secondaries. So we've got two large secondaries there that come through as part of the LDPs. So that's the projects. So in terms of just a massive thanks to everyone that's been involved in supporting with the development of this strategy, the engagement that's been really, really, really strong. Just the flag. So the education strategy hopefully shows real ambition and hopefully people can see how it will make a big difference education to our system. It's a framework for decision making. The rolling programme should be more fluid than what we've had previously and so that ongoing monitoring will be key to the programme as we go forward. And as I said before, just a flag that these projects are indicative at this stage, subject to funding and business case approvals. In terms of next steps, just a flag that, these slightly out of date here, but yeah, we've got cabinet papers obviously being released through scrutiny and we'll be going to cabinet next Thursday. Thank you very much. Thank you for that, Richard. Mel, who I know is online, would you like to make a statement before we ask questions? I'll take that as I know. So members, we will now ask questions to the panel. I will go around the committee in turn and ask if you have a question. For those committee members joining remotely, I will check with you towards the end of the Q&A to see if you have a question. Do Councillor Callum Davis, do you have a question? Thank you, Chair. Thank you for that presentation as well. Just to follow up on one of the examples you brought about British Social City Council. What happened there, that necessity is such a big bailout and is Cardiff Council exposed in the same way at all? So we haven't had direct conversations with British City Council, so we don't know the ins and outs of their circumstances, but in the articles it does refer to the fact that there's potential risk for them if they weren't to invest in this area. I think they flagged things like independent sector, increasing independent sector provision, similar sort of issues to us. And now, as an authority, we're not in the same position as British City Council. We're not in bailout terms or anything like that, but what it does show is that there is an increase in demand across the UK and locally, and it's something that we need to look to address. I don't know if we shall want to pick up. There's actually been numerous examples in the media in recent months with regards to the challenges associated with increased numbers of children with additional learning needs or send, as they're referred to in England. There are the local authorities, that's just the most recent one for people to kind of see that, as that slide in its border context, said, you know, kind of it's not alone in terms of the issues that it's facing and some people, or some local authorities are facing real challenges with regards to the funding in England, the funding is slightly different. But it's just to show that that's part of a bigger picture, as I say, a lot of the other local authorities, they will quote from the local authority officers that we work with. So it's putting it in the context that other local authorities are experiencing similar challenges. Some of them are feeling that more acutely in terms of the funding and options that they have available to them, and we want to seek to ensure that we're, you know, putting that intervention in place appropriately and that will require investment. So we're signaling that to avoid further issues of the type that other local authorities have to learn through different experience where they may be further down that expensive road than we are. Yeah, thank you for that. So it seems that the emphasis on ALN is essentially future proof in the council from ended up in that situation. It's been really interesting, of my time in this committee, hearing more about the pressures that ALN have been putting on local authorities, and I suppose because there's an emphasis in this and noting that issue, would it be then fair to say that ALN provision to pass has always been something, I don't know, of an afterthought, it's something that gets attacked on at the end of education, school planning, school delivery. And I was just wondering then, and then obviously now it's becoming much more of, we're thinking about this right at the start, making sure that we have the supply there for the demand. So just wondering how much of a shift there's been towards putting ALN at the heart of the core of school planning. I'll kick that one off. Yeah, I think in all fairness to Cardiff Council, I think when we're looking at the previous programs there, there's been a big commitment around ALN, if you look at, for example, Bambi, we've got significant places going in through the Fairwater Campus project. We've also been bringing forward the court, for example, so out of our key projects that we brought forward early in that, well, through that program, ALN did feature quite heavily, I think. So over recent years as well, over the last few years as well, we've increased the number of places significantly as well. So I think it's not been an afterthought, but what I would say is that the increase in growing demand has really been difficult for a lot of local authorities to deal with and a lot of authorities are struggling to keep up with the demand that's coming through. So when you're slightly behind then to try and keep up with that is always quite tricky. So this is kind of for us a step-changing in thinking and moving forward to meet those demands, but I wouldn't say it's probably been an afterthought, but it's featured heavily in our programs in the past, but also needs to feature heavily moving forward as well. I don't know whether Jenny would want to, I don't know, I don't have a guess at a couple of things. Pandemics obviously happened since we had the last submission, which is obviously Bambi is the largest amount of capital that we can attract in relation to investing in transformational change in the form of investing heavily in ALN. So whilst we can do things at a local level, and we have with specialist resource base, et cetera, where opportunities present, essentially we have had some significant events that are unprecedented, where we have seen needs in certain areas increase, not to mention other research that's demonstrating that there are increasing rates with regards to autistic spectrum and complex needs obviously we're all aware of, the survival rates, et cetera, et cetera. So there are a multitude of factors which have meant this scale of ALN investment is proposed as part of the rolling program. Some of them have rolled on from Bambi, so as Richard said, you've got the heavy level investment of complex needs, and ASC featured in Bambi in Woodlands River Bank. You've also got the primary EHW in the court, you have the secondary that is rolling forward from Bambi and going to feature in future projects. So lots of those need to be identified, but they have been exacerbated by some of the events that have happened since the submission of Bambi, and we've responded to those locally in various different ways. Did you want to have any questions? Thank you for that. And actually talking about the new rates, Richard, which is the change from the fixed bands of funding to this rolling program. So the report says, our child think Councillor Mary said it was easier. I just wondering if you could elaborate on why, so you're speaking about it positively, so I was just wondering if you could elaborate about why that's a good thing, because on first reading, you'd think, 'Oh, hang on, that means more uncertainty' initially. So it'd be just good to hear what you meant. Yeah, I can understand that position. I think what it allows us to do is plan a lot further forward than chunks of four or five years that previously were the funding allocations. So the reason Welsh Government put that forward is so they can have effectively mini chunks of three years each and plan that throughout there for their financial planning. What it means for us is that if you look at the Bambi program, for example, there were quite fixed projects that were outlined at a point in time. And as Michelle mentioned earlier, when you get towards later on in the program, you may look at those projects and think, okay, so are they the ones we want to be delivering now? Because things change. If you look at things like it could be the condition of a school, could rapidly deteriorate, or it could be a whole range of issues that we may mean that we want to bring forward a proposal sooner than we may have anticipated at a point in time. So what it allows us to do is that continual, and we'll be producing an annual report off the back of this strategy. So we'll be coming back annually with an update. Okay, yep, we're still in this position or we're not in that position, something's changed, and this is where we're at in terms of programs, et cetera. So it's more, I'd say, from a practical perspective, it definitely makes more sense. What it has meant at this initial outset is that we've had to be a bit more broad around the categories of projects that we're talking about, which, as you said, then provides maybe less clarity around what we're providing up front. But that, I think, in the longer run, that's probably the better thing to do over a long period of time to allow you to, you know, react to demands that come in. But at the same time, it allows us to be strategic. Do you want to ask before me? Oh, thank you. Yeah, thanks for that. You mentioned about Welsh Government there, actually. Over the last two months, we've had a new firstness, a new education minister. I was just wondering, since there's change of personnel, has there been any -- is there been continuity, or has there been a shift in the way Welsh Government relations or strategies being on this issue in terms of speaking to Cardiff Council? Yeah, it's been really good. So we know that the new Secretary of State is now considering the program, and now we know that we spoke to Welsh Government earlier today. We meet with them on a monthly basis, and we met them earlier today. And they said that, you know, our draft program is going through their approval processes. So obviously, when we've, you know, concluded the Cabinet processes, we can then formally submit. But we're not envisaging any delays to ministerial approval for the programs, which is good to hear. I've still got time for one or two more. Good. Thanks. So the other thing was, I think, you know, I speak spoken with school governors and other people. You know, quite a few schools in Cardiff are in deficit. So I'm just wondering, because this plan, which is, you know, about financing, has been drafted in the context of those deficits, is there a danger that we're kind of, you know, baking in deficits in the future in those schools? I'm just wondering if there's a strategy, if this, how does this strategy combat school deficits really? Yeah, so there's a whole range of things to consider here. I think what we do need to develop is a funding strategy that goes with these projects as and when the business cases come through. So we'll go through the business case process, identify money, and that will look at various different sources of funding. And we've got all sorts of stuff in there, you know, section 106 funding and the likes that don't impact on schools at all. What we do want to make sure from a revenue perspective is that any schemes that we bring forward isn't going to, you know, limit any burdens, additional burdens on this state. So we may look at, for example, investing in the estate, but we may want to look at a reorganization potentially or things along those lines potentially to try and make sure that we've got the most efficient estate possible. So, yeah, I think that, you know, I think there's a range of things. I think in terms of the business cases, when we're considering those, we'll look at that from a capital and revenue perspective on the estate as a whole, not just the project itself. So, for example, if we are looking at bringing an ALN investment forward, then we'd be looking at the impacts on the out-of-county budgets, we'd be looking at the impact on the AWPOO generally and we'll be developing that financial strategy at that point. So, yeah, I think that there's a whole range of things that we can do to consider how we would look at supporting the estate and making it as efficient as possible. Thank you. Councillor Hopkins, would you like to ask a question? I've got just three requests, but they're linked by money, actually, that's a common theme between them. Thanks very much indeed, Richard, for a very comprehensive outlining of the strategy. Clearly, there's a lot of money tied up in it over the nine-year period, some very significant sums, and I suppose one of the questions will be, and you've touched already, but the degree of risk to the program, and how guaranteed those sources of funding are over that period of time. That is a significant player and that the Council's capital contribution as well is significant. So, I wonder if you could just give us some indication, you've mentioned this re-and-onguing monitoring regime as well, how confident are you that the lion's share of that money is pretty guaranteed? Yeah, so, as you said, coming from Welsh government, now with any of the previous bans that we've had previously, we've had to go through business case processes, so there's never guaranteed funding until you've got that final business case approved. By that stage, we would have done a strategic outline case, and we would have done an outline business case, so we do touch base with Welsh government all the way throughout any of these projects, and they're fully aware of what we're delivering and what we're looking to achieve. So, yeah, there's a number of gateways in there that we do need to follow, and fund in is never guaranteed, but what we do find is that I think from conversations with Welsh government officials is that they find that our programme generally, I say, the education programme across the country delivers, and is a good way of delivering large amounts of capital projects across the country. I think that if there are under spends elsewhere, quite often the education area ends up mopping up because we've got so many projects in the office, and locally, we've obviously managed to develop a momentum in our programme over the recent years, so we've been a big spender through that Welsh government programme, and what we would want to do is to make sure we continue with momentum and make sure that we don't have a big pause. Thank you, and I think in one of the earlier slides, you referred to the fact that the Welsh government funding is largely for new build or major refurbishment, so with the proposals for ALN, assuming the asset renewal programme is outside of that, is there any aspect of the ALN proposals included within that funding envelope that you've outlined in that later slide? It could include a range of things, it could include new build refurbishments, and the like, so to be honest, we've got to work all that through in more detail. As you said, the asset programme does it separately, we've got base funding from the Council for our asset programme, we top that up with grants from Welsh government, separate grants from Welsh government, so that does kind of run in parallel, but yeah, I would anticipate that there would definitely be investment in the rolling programme in various guys from that project. Still sticking with the ALN theme, there are various references in the papers we've had as well to out of county costs, the intention to reduce those over time, and also the intention that with the increase in provision through SRBs more geographically spread, there's a hope for saving as well in terms of transport costs, so I suppose all of those elements refer back to some of the moving feasts that this issue is over a period of time, but one of the other issues that has financial implications as well is the references you've made to surplus places in various parts of the report. So my second main question really was about how you are looking to manage that over a period of time. There's a reference that I think towards the end of the decade of there may be 10% surplus places in secondary schools, 23% in primary, and that there is Welsh government guidance where surplus places goes over the 10%. Now I think it's in one of the appendices appendix for you referred there to bold, considered decisions to rationalise the number of organisations and sites, collaboration and federation being an element in how you might respond to that, maybe other uses for school buildings as well. So clearly with what could represent a quarter of primary school places being surplus, I suppose my question at this stage is far you're able to answer it. How concerned are you about that? Is there any indication that those surplus places will be significantly removed say at the start of the next decade, and how are you, I mean I don't envy you the task in managing all of that, but could you give us some insight into how you aren't just managing it? Yes, very carefully is the answer to that. I think what we do see, we see that the birth rates have peaks and troughs and we know over about a 25 year cycle whilst things will go down, they'll come back up again as well. So we've got to make sure that we are the team that wants to make sure that we've got the most efficient at the state possible, but we need to do that, anything that we consider in terms of organisation changes we need to do sensibly, what we have seen from our early modelling is that the payback periods of looking at reorganisations can be quite lengthy, and which is one of the key reasons we wanted to bring forward a collaboration and federation strategy that really can support us have efficiencies within the system without the need of significant enclosures for example, so we think that sister strategy to this one is a real opportunity for schools to hopefully ride some of that trough and then obviously will be well placed when the numbers bounce back up, but we do still need to be looking at trying to get the estate in the most efficient place it can be, but we need that flexibility as we move forward and we also need to really importantly consider the growth of Welsh medium as well and see how that changes the dynamic over the years as well, so lots to consider, but we've got to take a careful approach to any changes that we make to the system, also flagging, we have mentioned previously about bringing forward catchment changes as well, and that's something that needs to be considered in that light as well. Can we assume from that that this is a very live issue really at the outset of this nine year rolling program that you're actually going to have to give consideration to all of those elements you've just highlighted pretty much straight away? Yeah, so I'm currently looking at our resources and stuff like that to see what we can bring forward and what the real priorities are, yeah, so you know there are a number of priorities that we've got across the city, but we will have to take them in a certain order, even if I had endless resources, still wouldn't be able to deliver them all in one time. So yeah, we're going to have to pick out, I think, condition Ds are going to be, that's something Welsh government will tell us we have to do first, so there will be no negotiation on that one, and then we need to look at where our biggest impacts can be and where we think we can support the system the best we possibly can first of all. Thank you, my final area, you've touched on it really in your reference to reviewing catchment areas. I mean there's a reference in the education and investment strategy itself, I think it's on page 14, to reviewing catchments to respond to the need for more local, inclusive and accessible Welsh and English medium places and to support active travel. So I mean clearly those are two significant underlying principles behind the decision-making process. There are also references in the documentation as well, to a change in the funding model for Catay's High School, it was originally, I think, in 2019, additional to the Banbie program and funded through the mutual investment model, I think. That seems now not to be possible. And the figures in these particular papers, I think, relate to a project of 96.9 million. In the original, the figure was 38.8, I think. So there's a significant increase in what the cost of that proposal might be. So I suppose there's several questions here really. What are the implications for the rest of the program of that? In a previous meeting, you weren't able to be specific because I think we all understand that there are still ongoing negotiations over the company's house site and whether that may come into play as well, but I mean given the principles and depending on the program, in your slide here on the draft year nine program, I noticed there's no reference there to Willow's High School, and we have had some debate previously over the relative capacities of Catay's High and Willow's High, given the Catay's tends to take a significant majority of its children from outside of its catchment area. So I appreciate balancing parental preference with traveling across the city, surplus places in other schools is never an easy equation to make work, but there are a number of live issues there, aren't there? They're not going to go away. Yeah, I wish I'd taken note of all the questions and points there, but yeah, I'll start with Willow's work my way back to Catay's if that's okay after my phone stops, so yeah, so when we considered bringing forward Willow's and we undertook the engagements around Willow's, we very carefully considered the size of the school, particularly it's a school that's historically struggled to secure a lot of first preferences and we've got birth rates dropping over a long period of time, so that's one that we have to consider very carefully, also in the context of the rest of the city. So if you look at, we've also brought Cantonian forward as well, ATFE with post 16, so we've considered all of this in the round very, very carefully, looking at not wanting to bring forward two higher levels of surplus in the future in bringing forward our proposals now. So Catay's does take, currently take a number of children from the Willow's High School catchment. The new location for Willow's will be closer to Butown and we would expect Butown families to send children to the school, so we do, we are fully aware that we need to look at catchment positions in and around that area along with other areas as well. But going onto Catay's, Catay's is a really important secondary school for us strategically because it's city centre, city centre school, it's a central location, you take Catay's out of the system and it creates a lot of problems from all sorts of transport perspectives and the rain, it's effectively, it's our pressure valve for the city really, so it's a really strategically important one we considered very carefully when we brought forward each of those proposals around the site, bringing forward the correct size and that's obviously with a longer term goal in aim, got, you know, aim there with the projection position. So yeah, I think, you know, that's kind of the logic of what we've tried to follow there. I don't know if I've answered everything you want, I don't know if Michelle wants to pick up on anything. I'll just echo what Richard said about the catchment changes, it's a centrally located school. It's historic catchment area is one that really needs a revisit to support the wider education system and obviously it's an English medium secondary school, we have demand and excess supply in some areas, having a scale of school and a central location is one that we feel is strategically the best position for it but it's historic catchment area arrangement are not suited to the future organisation and therefore it's drawing from other local areas. It takes in that eight forms of entry, it's got that number of pupils but to ensure that parents are making informed decisions with regards to local provision, those catchment area arrangements do need to be reviewed as something as soon as we were able to do that effectively. Just two follow-ups then to that. With the figure of 96.9 million, presumably that funding model now is different, is that still going to be two thirds contribution from the Welsh government into that figure? Yeah. Yeah, we'll do. Didn't get on to that point so Welsh government basically announced that they're prioritising colleges ahead of schools and off the back of that they're probably not going to have the funding to deliver catais in any forms and that's the reason we brought that into grant and that will be follow the same funding models the rest of the schools. And then finally in the thinking you've done about the Willow's proposal, the proposal for post-16 provision there is different from some of the surrounding secondary schools. What was your thinking in adopting that and do you think that might be a material factor in parents' opting not to send their children to the school? Again, we consider it very carefully, the decision and the director at the time consider it very carefully as well and so we consider a whole range of different information at the time to bring forward that school and that proposal as we did. As part of the, you know, we've undertaken a significant vision and exercise around Willow's high school and we're looking at renaming as well, so we're looking at rebranding that school where we possibly can. It's really important that we develop those learning pathways for the school and that's part of it. So we've got an education piece as part of that project, it's not just a building project, it's also an education project that we're supporting the school with so, you know, there are strong links at the moment with Kavak, that's not the, you know, everyone's preference in terms of post-16, so it's making for us, it's making sure that we've, you know, looked at all of the various options and making those as clear as we possibly can do. So we've already had conversations with our new assistant director as well to help support move that, you know, move that forward in a coherent way as well. So really, really important in our thinking is supporting those children with those learning opportunities and those career opportunities that they may want to go down. So we don't see it as a mistake, we see it as an absolute, you know, there's absolutely strong reasons why we brought that forward, but we've got to make sure we get that right. And Carol, do you have any questions? Yes, I've got a couple of questions. The first question is with regard to refugees and asylum seekers, you know, that could grow, it may not, but it could grow, and they need to be found places in schools. So have you got a strategy to be looking at asylum seekers, and particularly refugees because they've got better status? Yeah, Brett, Brett will be the best person to go through the data side of things. What we've found obviously with the refugees is that they tend to have a temporary, temporary settled status effectively in the city, and at the time of birth rates dropping, actually it's supported a number of schools that have supported refugees, supported actually their sustainability of their school in the short term. So we do find that whilst we've had significant numbers, there have been certain pinch points, we generally speak, and obviously they tend to have a more of a temporary status. So we haven't got a specific policy around admitting refugees, and they follow the admissions code, along with all the other children. So probably, as I said, Brett, it's probably the best person to go through, he doesn't answer that. Excuse me, yeah, I know colleagues in the education department are liaising closely with the home office and with other partners to monitor the families who are coming into an out of Cardiff, where they are being temporarily housed. As Richard mentioned, within the primary age phase, it's actually been quite helpful to schools in terms of the intakes to schools and the impact on their budget being positive. One of the factors we are grappling with at the moment is children in temporary housing generally, where it is a case that they may even be accommodated for a matter of weeks or a matter of months, and whether they should actually be undertaking a number of house moves or just being provided with transport to support them staying in their local school. So there is work ongoing at the moment to support that aspect, but in terms of the overall planning of places and number of places we need, the overall figures are actually quite low as proportion, so there's no concerns that it will have a significant impact on the number of places we need to plan in any particular community. Second question really is, obviously, the strategy, and I'd like to congratulate you on a nine-year strategy, because I think without a strategy, then we wouldn't know where we were going, and I think what you've produced today is really clear, although there are question marks over some things because things can change. I just wanted to ask, did you ever consider, when you're looking at new bills, particularly, having schools from age three to eighteen, that doesn't mean to say it's just A levels, you could be doing other subjects after GCSEs. So in my previous life I came from the DFE, where there's a number of all through schools in England, there are also some in Wales as well. It's not an area that we've pushed necessarily, we're still continually seeing how the data pans out to see how, whether they are models that are best practice or not, quite often it's down to the strong leadership of those schools for them to work. Having said that, we're absolutely not ruling them out either, so we're not saying it's not part of our strategy. We haven't explicitly said that, as I said, I'd probably say it's fair to say, until we've got more evidence that the jury's still out to an extent on all throughs. No, I was just going to say, because it dates back to before Richard joined us, we haven't ruled it out historically, in fact, the original proposal for Willo's was to look at a three to eighteen school, so it is something that has been looked at and has been considered. Just with regard to that, and I know what is not there, because it's a much bigger thing, but if they could be developed, there are a lot of pluses to it, one, the children would go through the school from nursery, if you like, to further education. The other thing is, the initial cost of building the school is obviously high, but the utility cost would be centred in one school, and it could also affect the travel to the school as well, because if parents are taking children to primary school and to secondary school, which a lot of them do today, they would only have the one school, so it should affect the travel arrangements as well. That's the only point I want to make. Obviously, other local authorities have pursued a three to nineteen model, and there are certainly those within our education workforce in Cardiff, and within central education that have experienced, positive experience, and varied experience with regards to implementing or working within the three to nineteen model, so whilst it's not explicit, in terms of pursuing it as a specific strategy, as some local authorities have been quite open with, that is our going to be our model, as colleagues have said, it's not something that's off the table, but it would need to be appropriate to each locality, because where often you have primary schools, some are in the three to nineteen, and others are feeding into that later on. The transition for those within the three to nineteen is positive, but it may be disjointed for those that are not included within it, so there's pros and cons, depending on how you are, whether you're in the transition or outside it, and obviously people would say that those are within the model, it's a very positive transition, but as I say, there is very much a wealth of research that's kind of building up now in terms of longitudinal studies, and it's something that we will consider in each option of appraisal according to each locality and the factors that play out as to whether it be something that's appropriate, as you saw in some of the LVP developments, there's certainly scope to do that, according to where we've got alignments with the kind of, what you call the nominal, whether the kind of layout of different assets aligned to propose to be aligned for education, there's scope to do that, but it totally depends on each locale area as to whether it's the right solution for them. If I could just ask if you could get the catchments sorted as soon as possible, having spent days and days and days on the school appeals, that is the top thing that is coming up, and you mentioned the sixth form at Willows, and that was actually brought up in one of the appeals I was on the last few days, that they wouldn't send their child to Willows because there's no sixth form. I just wondered how soon you think there will be an impact on the current ALN provision, and also is there any additional tailored provision for pupils who are permanently excluded because colleagues who were on the appeals are undertaking quite a number of permanent exclusions higher than they've ever had to do before. So I just wondered, is there anywhere that the children who are not really engaged in the ordinary everyday education, if you like, for want of a better phrase, is there any provision in the pipeline to engage with pupils because they can't just carry on, you know, being out of school, really. We have recently brought forward proposal for extending the Prue over the existing Fitz Allen site, so that's doubling the size of the Brunnaderian school from 90 to 180, so that's something that obviously directly supports some of that cohort. In doing so, what we're really supporting there are more provision for your sort of anxious, non-attenders and sort of children with behavioural type issues as well. We also have been growing our community teaching teams, and we've recently established a base and that went through a cabinet paper a while ago at Seven Road, so we have a whole rep, but you've got the EOTIS team and the whole range of support that they provide, and maybe Jenny and Michelle could talk about that in a bit more detail. So we've got a whole range of ways we support children for whatever reason and are not able to support the mainstream curriculum. So in terms of, you know, in future, well, we've got the citywide ALN investments, so we need to consider if we're bringing forward a significant amount of ALN places in the system, then we look at the right balance for that sort of revolving door type provision as well. What we don't want are to, you know, if we are having proves, for example, we don't want them to really be special schools, we want them to be, you know, revolving door and, you know, as they're intended for, so we want to make sure we've got special schools that are appropriate for the number of children that need it with ALN, and then proves for that more, you know, revolving door, bringing back into mainstream type provision. So we'll consider all of that in the business case the right balance of that. Just to add to what Richard said, you know, there's also a really well established process for enabling young people who've had a permanent exclusion to have a fresh start in another school. That involves the secondary schools working together to agree on, you know, almost exchange placements if you like, making sure they're all giving opportunities to some of the young people to make a fresh start in a new school, so there's that approach as well. And ultimately, of course, some of the children who are permanent excluded may have additional learning needs, may need to move on to special provision, either following the exclusion or at a later point, and there's also developments in the city, sort of linked very much to the PRU developments and the tuition service around developing alternative provision opportunities as well, and outdoor learning, et cetera. There's quite a lot of development going on around that area, leaving what you want it to do at the moment. Yeah, I think that there is a good range, especially with the new PRU being brought forward. There is, you know, an increased range of opportunities for young people in that position, and we are actually seeing permanent exclusions falling in the city as well, which is very positive. I know they are still wearing the high, you know, but it's still good to see them moving in the right direction. So, yeah. Okay, so I have a few questions on the ALN placements as well, but they've all been asked and answered really well, so thank you for that. So I've got a couple of other questions. The first one is in reference to the carbon reduction plan that you have. I was just wondering specifically how you plan on making the education buildings more efficient and reducing the carbon. Are you going to focus just on the category D schools and then rebuilding them and making them zero carbon, or do you have specific plans for all of the education building? Yeah, that one's for me. So we've got a number of range of activities that we've got going on at the moment. So we've got starting from the behavioural side of things. We've relatively recently appointed to post into the curriculum team and into the Cardiff commitment team looking specifically at the curriculum with schools around carbon reduction and a whole range of things that they're looking at, which is really fantastic to be working with them. We also, now they're utilising our core data sets that I mentioned earlier around K2N, so effectively that assesses every single building in the city. Every single score, it looks at the components of that so that you can aggregate that into a sort of rank score effectively and you've got a league table that's meaningful across the city, which is really good as well. So we've got the data sets, we've got the behavioural side of things moving forward. There's always more that can be done on that side of things. In terms of the actual buildings themselves, so we've recently appointed a contractor on the refit framework. So we've gone through a procurement and appointed a contractor and we're just identifying which schools we want to bring forward as part of that framework. So I think our first tranche is going to be well in excess of a million pounds and we've got a number of tranches that will be coming through over the next six, seven, eight years. All of those will be invest to save type arrangements funded by interest free sale grants. So for each of those projects, they'll need to have a payback period over a certain time frame depending on the mixture of things that we'll put in a given school. So the chances are we'll be tackling some of the quicker wins first. So we'll be looking at things like LED lights, which there's a legislation change from it, which means we need to deal with that. And then we'll be getting on to some of the and PV's as well and then we'll be getting on to some of the other stuff later on down the line. So we're going to start off with that sort of approach rather than looking at taking it school by school. So we want to just get some quick wins out there. And then really in terms of the investment in the estate generally, I think the best way of reducing carbon is to make sure that number one of our builds are efficient. And they've all got embodied carbon targets and operational carbon targets. So they're really, really stretching. They're quite challenging to deliver actually. But then looking at where we are putting in investment into our existing estate, say we're looking at a roof or a boiler that we're trying to put in as energy efficient versions of that as we can. We're putting in the right insulation while we're putting roofs in all that sort of stuff. So that all happens as natural part of what we do. But gas is the big carbon guzzler. So it's really looking at that boiler specification and try and make that as efficient as we can at the moment. We're still installing gas. But you can't really look to things like air source heat pumps and things like that if you haven't got the full building sorted in terms of insulation and all of that. So that's the position that we're in at the moment. We're doing the best we possibly can within our budgets. It really sounds like it. That's great to hear that it's just across the board. That's what I wanted to hear. The other question that I've got is, you mentioned the impact of the falling rates in Cardiff. And I was just wondering in relation to, because you've mentioned federating the schools, I was just wondering, is that still going to be a decision made by the individual schools and the governing body? Or will it be a decision based on reaching a reduced intake baseline for a certain period of time? So that's the strategy we brought forward was a collaboration of federations. So not necessarily a federation approach is what we're looking at there. Now the idea, we brought that forward as a school led approach. That's kind of, as I said, it's a bit of a sister strategy for what we're covering today. But effectively, we outlined in that strategy a number of different ways of bringing forward collaboration. It could just be two schools sharing equipment or curriculum materials or whatever it may be through to the end of that as federations. And that can either be brought through and our preferences at schools bring that forward themselves and governing bodies do that. And there are the options if in legislation, which is nothing new, that we can bring forward LA federations. But that's not something we've done in the city previously. As I said, our preference is governing bodies lead the way on that. I think the only thing to add on that is that the collaboration and federation strategy doesn't completely ameliorate the need to potentially rationalise places. So you can do that through a variety of means. You can repurpose accommodation. So there's a range of schools across the city where we may have other partner organisations that are compatible on an education site. So you would reduce the published admission number associated with a reduced floor area. You may also look to closer school. So the federation and the collaboration and federation strategy gives us a wider range of options which gives schools more scope to actually bring forward cohesive or collaborative proposals within their locality. But it would be unfair to say that it will completely remove the need to reduce surplus places through school organisation planning as well. So there are various mechanisms and we would seek to avoid that wherever you can because it's incredibly challenging with regards to removing the school from the community. But in some instances, to ensure that the system works effectively and you're not burdening the wider system, what they will continue to do that in some instances. Thank you. Thank you, Chair, and congratulations for you. Actually, most of the questions have been asked, Robert and Kalam, thank you. I would like to thank for the presentation although it was 24 slides. And officers for their hard work. Actually, I will just say, obviously most of the questions is already asked. But I would say education is the backbone of any nation. So it is very important. And I hope, Karif, as a local authority, we're going in the right direction. And there is a very positive programme here. But there's a vast amount of money and the risk involved. So make sure we do the right thing. Thank you. Best of luck. Thank you. I think a lot of them have been asked and answered, particularly a lot of the concerns that I've got around willows. But I think just sort of more holistically, it's really lovely to see you talking about equity and not equality. So I guess one of the questions is what mapping are you doing at that sort of hyper-local levels to really understand what those communities need and what those individual children are going to need rather than blankly saying, well, the south of the city needs this and that. Because as you've heard, there's a lot of concerns around willows not having that sixth form provision. You're talking about community-focused schools. Willows, I guess is the prime example of, that could be a really good community-focused school. It would serve an area that's got some really vulnerable challenging needs. And then for children to have to suddenly leave at 16, start again somewhere else where they're not known, where they haven't got that continuity of care, welfare, education. It is an off-put. I mean, I have seen, however, on the flip side where there have been stronger links with willows because one of the schools I'm a good prime governor at had to be cited there for a long time. And they've now seen quite a pick-up uptake of people's going because they've been around that school. So I guess there really is. What are we doing to map the needs? And have we got room to reconsider potentially sixth forms and how we're going to really make them community-focused? Yeah, I'll kick that off and then I'll let Michelle chip in, which I'm sure she'll want to. I think there's different ways and different parts of the project program that we do some of that. I think if you look at, when we're bringing forward any new build project, we start off with an education vision. And actually that starts off without any talking about buildings or anything like that. It's literally looking at the education side of things. So for willows and for other projects that we've brought for recently, there's been a full engagement exercise, not just the statutory engagement or that, but also in developing that strategy. We've engaged with members of the community, the school community, etcetera to try and really find out what is right for that local area. So a big part of our mapping is actually done at that stage to really understand the local area and making sure that the schools are fit for purpose. I think as I mentioned earlier around willows specifically, it will be a good community-focused school. I'd just like to say that. And I think that it may be a case that I can understand concerns from certain parents on paper. It might be a case that we need to continue to develop our education, both communication, but also that continued development of that school to make sure that those career pathways and learning pathways are in place. So there's clearly more for us to do there. If we are getting some feedback that people put off, but the plans are coming together to try and make sure that that is a really good community-focused school. And we think, you know, sustainably in the long run for willows, it's pitched at the right place at the moment. It's got core facilities of eight forms of entry, and it can be expanded. So it's been designed in a way that can be easily expanded with additional sick form and additional forms of entry as well. So it's completely future-proofed. But as I said, for the sustainability of the school, we absolutely believe it's the right size and the right provision there. So in terms of the planning side of things and how we map out local need and stuff like that, I'll probably pass over to Michelle really, who can talk about the planning side. The distinguishing between equity and inequalities was something that we discussed with the kind of influencers, and they were really keen to understand what the difference that would make in terms of a local area. So we have seen that as something that we need to kind of highlight. In relation to mapping communities and what does a future school need to kind of be, to be a beacon or to be a place of trust or a place of safety? There's two different things. Obviously, you'll be aware of that. You've got your school community, and that may not be the same as a geographical community. So for example, faith schools will have a range of, likely to have a range of different geographical communities contributing to them. Similarly, the Welsh medium schools tend to have much larger catchment areas, so there's likely to be a range of communities. It depends on your interpretation of the word community, and actually we need to be taking account of all the different interpretations. So I think that that aspect of ensuring that we are mapping communities not just from the school perspective, but also from the geographical perspective is important. And it's essential if we really aspire to ensure community-focused provision, that schools have an understanding about their geographical community, not just the pupils that attend their school, whether that's from their local area or otherwise. There's certainly historic perceptions of different schools, which is what I'm assuming you're kind of referring to. And when you understand a school, or you have a more visibility of what goes on within a school, that changes perceptions that you may have had prior to experiencing it, which is something we need to be clear about when we invest in schools, that their traditional perception is revisited, and that's part of the visioning work. So for example, with regards to the Fairwater campus, a lot of work has been done. It's not taking Cantonian and Woodlands and Riverbank and just putting them somewhere else. What's the cohesive vision and how does it respond as part of that geographical community, and also those individual school communities to deliver not just the same, but better for everybody concerned. There are obviously a number of organisations operating in any area that are well connected to local people, and add to the school's knowledge of the pupils that attend and their physical location. Obviously local members will have a range of contacts, and in many cases are in position to trust, which, and we want to tap into those both in terms of the existing projects. So we have done in many instances, and many local members will test their involvement. We were in a meeting with a local member briefing recently, and for example the local Councillors near the Fitz Allen Project were talking about their involvement with the design and build, etc., etc. So we need to continue to do that on our existing projects. That's not one size, one event, and then we're done. And also obviously when we're considering future projects it's essential that we do that, because there are organisations operating in many areas that may not always have visibility of, and to ensure that community focus and genuine value added, we need to seek to ensure that they are involved. Thank you for that. I think it's really important that it's equity and not equality, and it's really lovely to hear that the influencers are on board with that as well. Just picking up then, I think the only other thing is, and it's sort of been covered I suppose, the new LDP is coming forward, and again there's an awful lot of housing proposed for that southern arc, so you're saying there is that flexibility then, you know, to bring in more people places, increase the offer at willows and other schools around here taking into account that I suppose you could end up in down here with an awful lot more pupils and an awful lot less, say, in sort of more leafy suburbs where there's less movement and as children grow up and move on. As Richard said, for example, the example with willows is we designed it in such a way that it can, you know, we have future-proofed it, and you aim to do that on any school site. Some of our sites are very constrained, and that's where you use those levers with regards to catchment-area arrangements, and so they're never fixed forever because you have to be able to respond, and again, that's where you're talking about maintaining central assets and retaining scope there, because you've got that, if you think of one in the middle, then you've got that easement kind of area, and any new school would need to take account of that, so if you think about Cantonian, for example, it's adjacent to large areas of development, so where you've got that fluctuation of birth rates and also increasing numbers of housing, you've got that scope to A, do that in the short and medium-term, but also longer-term, it's feeding into that kind of consideration, so we have to do that all the time, although it is really difficult to get a precise fix on what any housing development will yield, and it's complex because different types of housing, different configurations, different unit sizes, all have different yields, and some of which we can seek contributions to build in extra places, some of which we can't, but yes, we do do that. We're challenged regularly by the developers with regards to what they give us, and we have to be quite robust in terms of those negotiations. It's not a precise science, but yes, we do seek to factor that in and retain flexibility wherever possible, albeit taking into account that the size of our sites are historic, and if you're purchasing something new, you look to retain flexibility wherever possible. Thank you for all your questions in the room, there is no one online, so I will thank you all for your attendance on this item. We will consider this further during our way forward, and I will write to you to inform you of the committee's observations, comments, and/or recommendations ahead of Cabinet on Thursday. Thank you all. So we move to agenda item five, which is urgent items, and I can confirm that there are no urgent items for us to consider today. Agenda item six is the way forward. I invite Alison to help determine the way forward arising in today's meeting. Can I please remind members that the way forward is a committee-led discussion, and it is the responsibility of members to specify on-camera what goes into this letter. I will invite Alison to briefly outline the issues identified. I will then invite members to state what they wish to include in the letter. Please switch on your microphone, and I will come to members in turn, and then please switch off your microphone when you're speaking, so I'll hand over to Alison. Thank you very much, Chair. Okay, just picking up on some bits from the presentation that basically the proposal in front of you today is to the business case they've already submitted to the Welsh Government. It is part of the process. It will now go through Cabinet before it's officially given back to Welsh Government. So really it's just for you to consider whether you feel that the business case and the information you've received is robust, whether you feel they've considered the risks and mitigated risks where they are visible and kind of out there. They've got an idea about that. Whether you feel as though the links to other plans and strategies and policies, you've heard about that today as well. They talked about post-16 and community-focused schools being a priority for them going forward. So again, maybe you want to reflect on that. You asked, there's also things around the rationale behind the programme. You satisfied that the rationale behind everything that's been given to you today is sound and also whether you feel the indicative programme projects that you had as part of your presentation today are good ones going forward, even though it's a rolling programme that is open to change. In terms of some of your question, there's a lot of questions to say around ALN regarding the funding of ALN proposals, spend and demand and Councillor DAVIS, you picked up on the Bristol bailing out issue. You asked around future proofing, you asked around the shift in focus towards ALN, the impact of changes, how they're measuring the impact of changes that they are now introducing and also about provision for permanent exclusions as well. You asked around the move from banding to a rolling programme and the implications of that. You asked around relations with Welsh Government and continuity of relations with Welsh Government. You talked around school deficits and carrying on from that with regard to funding more generally, where there was any risks regarding resources. You asked around risks regarding surplus places and how they're managing that and do they have any concerns about it. Linked with that, Celeste, you asked around collaboration and federation. The issue that the committee has brought up before was brought up both in responses and in some of the questions you raised around the catchment changes. It's been 12, 18 months since you asked for a catchment review, so maybe that's something you'd like to drive forward again. You asked around the change in modelling, the financial modelling from the MIM to the new proposals, particularly with regard to catees. You spoke about capacity, you spoke about travel, particularly around catees and willows. You said, on a general note, that there are a lot of live issues that they're juggling and whether they were okay with that. You asked around willows post 16, there are other issues with willows that we'll come back to. You asked around strategies and policies regarding refugees and asylum seekers and they talked to you about a piece of work they're doing with children in temporary housing and the impact of that at the moment. You asked them around the three to 19 schools model and you heard that it was not an issue that they ruled out, but they're waiting for more data and evidence on the impact of that. You asked around carbon reduction and then you talked around equity and equality and about the mapping of needs within areas. Again, that kind of took you back to discussions on willows as well. Then finally then, you talked around the impact of the LDP on this as well. I'll throw it back over to you to let me know what you want to go in the letter. Thank you. Talking about measuring things actually, going through the draft strategy in the supplementary papers, there's quite a few bullet points of what will success look like. I think it's important that we request that when the, because Richard was also talking about coming back out on an annual basis with an annual report, that they are essentially turned into KPIs and that where you can measure the progress they've made against an annual basis. I hope there's a support for that. I think we probably all feel reasonably comfortable with the principles and the aspirations behind the strategy. I think it would be helpful in the letter if we could highlight the particular points that you run through Alison there, that were questions and some concerns and need reassurance on certain things. Then I think, as the programme develops, I'm assuming that officers and the Cabinet Member will bring particular proposals to the committee at a point to be for decisions are final so that they can be scrutinised properly. There is some unease about some elements of the proposals. The question about Willow's High School, I think, is a pertinent one because even though you could argue, well, is it in campus within what is referred to on this slide here as community focus schools provision? It's not clear from this list of projects here where Willow sits in it and I thought the completion date for Willow's was 2026. I think there is a relationship between Kate's High School and Willow's High School. The reference to Willow's being able to be expanded beyond eight forms of entry. I think we would probably need to have more insight into how that would work because the building will be built. I'm not quite sure what the add-ons would look like or when they would appear. I think we need a bit more insight into that. I think Grace's points about post-16 provision again as well and the local community perceptions a bit. I think the problem here is Kate's is at the size it is because parents are preferring to send their children there. In some cases when they don't get a place at their first preference school but in other cases it's their first preference. I take the point that it's positioned strategically in the centre of the city and they can soak up a need for places elsewhere but I think all of that mixed probably needs a little bit more challenge and scrutiny for it to be completely convincing. I think the issue for Willow's is that all of the secondary schools around it will have post-16 provision and if parents are thinking what I want continuity I'm not sure when the school has had difficulty in the past in retaining its children. Whether or not you know that is underestimated as a factor. Anybody else? Follow on really. I mean I mentioned school appeals and I can assure you that the last school that is acceptable to parents currently is willows and I know I'm only speaking anecdotally but that's the reality that I've been seeing and I think it's I think too that the post-16 is a mistake not to have something there because you're trying to promote the profile of willows and yet you're not giving them a sixth form. So what message are you sending out? So how if they don't want to put a sixth form, what else could they be doing with Vince Allen maybe or you know to have some sort of joint thing going on. I know in the Catholics sector for instance the sixth forms were all taken away and St David's College was put into existence which is great but I still think that the sixth forms were missed and are missed because they provide something to reach for when they see sixth formers and I think it's you know that aspect is important as well. I would endorse that because I think that young people coming into school at year seven they want to stay with their mates and at year 16 then they told that they've got if they want to do further education then they've got a move and very often they move on their own because they go you know they can go to Bali College or whatever and it certainly makes sense to have sixth forms in school. I know that there are problems because some sixth forms are bigger than others but then again federation could come into this too so they can share subjects so if that particular school can't do a particular subject, a neighboring school like Fitz Allen could do that subject but it's important I think that the children can go through and have the same continuity with teachers. Just as we seem to be having a debate about post-16 education which I'm sure we don't want to extend unnecessarily but there are, yeah I'm not a diet in the world traditionalist when it comes to post-16 provision in schools. I'm not entirely convinced that having a sixth form is necessarily the answer to every child's needs actually. Some children need more flexible provision, some children need more vocational provision which a traditional sixth form doesn't always provide. I think the problem in this case though is that parents will be looking around them and seeing a difference in the provisions in nearby schools and it's more that's the issue I think. If we were all tertiary we'd all be tertiary but we're not all tertiary and that is a factor in how parents think about it I think. Any other comments? No, okay, so what I'll do then, I mean if members are happy that we'll maybe flag up about the annual report containing some kind of KPIs or some kind of measurement that you're able to scrutinise going forward and also I'll pick up by the webcast the issues you've picked up regarding willows and maybe some of the issues that maybe you would like to put forward in the maybe reviewing, I don't know, you know, reviewing that particular proposal or you know think about some of the things that were mentioned at today's meeting with that scene. Sorry, I mean on the presentation and their explanation of the willows what they think but as a committee we can ask that what is the reason behind it like I think you know every school needs a sixth form you know and there is a wise objection and why is that they're thinking of as a local authority so I think you should mention that. I think it's me, I think it's me, I think on willows it sort of feels a bit like it's will build a mini school but possibly status quo in terms of what they've got. There is work to do on its reputation, I've seen because I live in the area and children go to it, I've seen the difference that it's made that one of our primary schools had that half the school had to be cited there for the whole of the academic year last year and the relationships that that built up between the primary school and the high school means that there are now an awful lot more children from that school who've put willows as a first preference and are going very happily so I do wonder if we need to bring back the willows decision and in some capacity and say can we have it back please because actually we need some answers to this as to we've all we're all saying this very independently each other and since we are saying it what are we doing to amend our thinking on this build? Yeah I think the risk here is that you create in parents minds rightly or wrongly a hierarchy of schools and it's one of the reasons why in the task and finish group we asked Richard if he could avoid using the term super school for some of the new builds because that also risks creating in people's minds rightly or wrongly a hierarchy of schools. On the point on the measurements just to be clear I think it's important that the KPIs are those points they identified in the initial stretch or the final stretch and it's the last after the moment because that is what they said from the outset they'd be doing so just to make sure that that fits clear. Okay thank you thank you all just to let you know that cabinet is Thursday so what are oh we've got one more sorry sorry Councillor HOPK. Okay no this is outside of this actually Alice it's just the point we raised in the pre-meeting about we haven't had a response yet to the collaboration and federation letter and a question but whether at some point they're not too distant future when it's most appropriate that we get an update on school budgets. Great okay thank you Councillor HOPK. So cabinet is Thursday so I'll be putting this letter together in the morning so if you want to comment on it please keep an eye out of your inboxes tomorrow because you'll have to begin with the cabinet on Thursday morning so that's it from me Chair back to you. Thank you very much so the next agenda item is agenda item number seven date of the next meeting I want to thank you all for your attendance today and making my first meeting a very good one so I formally close this meeting the provisional date of the next meeting is Tuesday the 11th of June 2024 from 4.30pm and thank you very much and I'll look forward to seeing you then take care. [BLANK_AUDIO]