And welcome to the licensing panel.
We have representation from the applicant.
We have no representation of the objectors at the moment.
But for the record, we will consider, of course,
the objections that were recorded.
On the panel, you have myself, Councillor Moshinson,
Councillor Henson, and Councillor Gooden-Freeman.
As legal advisor.
My name is Alastair Cryan.
I'm the legal advisor to the panel.
And the licensing officer.
I'm Sreetal Rajani.
I'm licensing team leader.
Thank you.
First item on the agenda is the appointment of chair.
Okay.
I'm happy to propose you, Councillor Moshinson.
Are you happy to second, Councillor Henson?
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you.
I will be the chair then for this meeting.
Are there any declarations of interests?
I have a non-pecuniary interest to declare
of a commercial comms relationship with the applicants.
But there's no reasons to declare it as a pecuniary interest.
Thank you.
I will give balanced advice.
My wife was formally employed by McDonald's in the 1990s.
And I have a niece who was a manager
of a McDonald's branch in France.
But I haven't spoken to her in about two years.
And I understand she resigned about a year ago.
Thank you.
I will briefly walk you through the procedures
for this oral hearing which is also set out from page five.
The procedure will basically allow the licensing officer will
present the report that we have.
We will then have-- allow for a presentation by the applicant.
If there are any other supporting information,
we will follow with that as well.
There will be then questions by the panel if there are any.
And then we will allow for concluding statements
from the applicant and then we will--
there's another room I imagine that was organized.
We will retire for some deliberation.
Oh, we will then-- sorry, used to be different room.
We will ask you to step out while we're deliberating.
With that, I suggest that we get started.
Thank you, Chair.
The Licensing Authority has received an application
for a new premises license to be granted
for McDonald's restaurant and drive-through subs
for the South HA20HA.
This application is for the premises to remain open
to the public 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
In saying this, the applicant wishes
to serve late night refreshment, that is the provision
of both food or drink for the restaurant area between the hours
of 2300 to midnight each day and for the drive-through area
to serve late night refreshment between the hours
of 2300 to 500 the following morning.
This premises already benefits from a premises license
which is attached to this report under Appendix 5
to serve late night refreshment for the restaurant area
from 2300 to midnight each day and for the drive-through area
from 2300 to 200 the following morning each day.
The current license already contains conditions
under annex 2.
This is an increase of three hours daily
for the drive-through area.
The application has attracted two representation
from other persons, member of the public alleged that the grant
of the application may undermine one or more
of the license objectives.
The representations concern a possible increase
in antisocial behavior, the potential increase
in noise nuisance and litter.
The representations have been attached
under appendix 3 of this report.
The application states that the majority of conditions
that already appear on the current premises license have
been replicated on the application.
The premises also offers make-delivery facilities.
The applicant has worked with the police and agreed conditions
with them that appear under appendix 4 of this report.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you.
I'll invite the applicant to present.
Yeah.
We're on?
Yeah. OK.
So, my name is Ari Mavani and I am the owner
of all the McDonald's in the Harrow borough.
I'm additionally a board member of Harrow BID
and I'm also involved in local charities
within the Harrow borough, just to name a few, Remembrance Day,
Harrow Heroes and Harrow Litterpick.
I've chosen today not to bring any officials with me,
whether that's legal or any kind of--
any other type of officials because I think today is
important for you to see the businesswoman
that is behind McDonald's.
Instead, I have bought my area manager, Tom Russell,
who looks after all seven of our branches which are all
in Harrow and the Brent borough.
And then we've got Lee Brand who also works for me
and he is the restaurant manager for the South Harrow branch
which is the one we are discussing today.
So, we are seeking to operate additional hours
for the drive-through and delivery business only
with no in-store customers for additional four hours.
Currently, we trade between 6 a.m. and 2 a.m.
with the drive-through and delivery service only
after midnight, so from midnight to 2 a.m., seven days a week.
It's worth mentioning that most of 2024 under TENS license,
we have been operating 24 hours on Fridays and Saturday.
And again, this is to gather data on trade trending conditions.
In our applicant for additional four hours,
we have received no objections
from the eight responsible authorities.
That is the planning authority with planning granted
on April the 30th, 2024 with no objections or no considerations.
Harrow and Brent trading standards, environment health
and pollution, London Fire Brigade, child safety,
public safety, the licensing authority, and the Met Police
which submitted a representation.
However, that was resolved after agreeing
to additional conditions in Appendix 4 on page 47
of this report, and therefore, the police withdrew.
We have received only two objections, but that's too,
too many in my opinion.
We've attempted to meet with Mr. Daniel O'Riden
and Ms. Artie Halligan to address their concerns.
But they have declined to meet us
and to seek resolution despite my personal attempts as well
as Tom's several times.
Nevertheless, I have endeavored to address their concerns.
Mr. O'Riden and Ms. Halligan mentioned litter.
As you are aware in condition 13, 14, and 15 of my license,
it requires strict measures regarding litter.
Additionally to my license which has 100 meters requirement
for us to clean the area, we have gone beyond this measure.
Today, I want to explain to you 'cause I thought--
I didn't submit it because I thought it was easier
to explain this, but I have a map which talks
about the three daily litter picks that we do
in Lee's Branch and my team conduct.
This goes beyond Portlook Avenue, Shaftesbury Avenue,
but into Whitmore Road and Hillside Crescent.
And just a reminder, we do do that three times a day.
Furthermore, every Wednesday, we have gone beyond
as an employee, we with counselors, local counselors
and the local Harrow pick litter team
which there is 900 members but they do a rotation
so obviously not all 900 comes, conducts a weekly litter pick.
They start at our McDonald's in Shaftesbury.
And they cover a mile-- one mile radius
which we are involved in.
We as in McDonald's dispose of this litter responsibly
at our expense and have done for many years.
We have also donated over 100 litter picks,
more than 300 litter hoops and high-vis jackets.
And more recently, we have donated graffiti remover.
The council also dropped their purple bin bags
at our South Harrow Branch which we store safely
for any local residents if they want
to collect any litter bags.
In summer, we have a comprehensive system in place
and consistently go above and beyond these measures.
As you know, the conditions need to be proportionate
to the license and I'm confident that we far exceed that.
I also understand that Ms. Halligan has raised concerns
regarding traffic, criminal activity and vandalism.
Firstly, the police and any local responsible authority have
not noted any crime or disorder.
They have not reported any public nuisance and no Chris
or CAD report has been filed since we've extended our hours
till 2 a.m. and temporarily 24 hours over the weekend.
Despite this, once again, we have gone beyond.
We have invested in over 25,000 pounds worth
of artistic fencing around our drive-through
and this has passed all noise pollution-- a noise test, sorry.
Our COD box, so this is where our staff speak out of
to take the order, is set on night mode.
So after 11 p.m., it is slightly-- it is reduced as well.
So again, we are trying to reduce noise during the night.
We also have several conditions supporting the license
as outlined on page 27 and 28.
Additionally, we have implemented CCTV, AMPR
to prevent litter and loitering from vehicles after 11 p.m.
and we also have a sophisticated number plate recognition.
Miss Halligan also expresses a safety of our staff
when travelling to work.
While I thank her for this, I believe that 24-hour operation
of my staff is actually safer because they come then
at 9 p.m. for their shift and will finish at 6 a.m.
Rather than today, they finish at 3 a.m.
when the restaurant closes at 2 p.m.-- 2 a.m., sorry.
So therefore, I believe this is a lot more safer for our staff.
Miss Halligan also expresses concerns about the protection
from children from harm.
This concern is addressed in section E on page 28
where there is no condition under the license
as there is no merit in this comment.
Furthermore, after midnight, we only operate drive-through,
customers and delivery.
Therefore, you have to be old enough
to be driving a vehicle to go through our drive-through
and delivery will be done on-premise obviously
in the residential home.
And the install will be closed.
And our drive-through will not allow pedestrian
to come through and take orders
due to health and safety regulations.
The police actually have gone and said
it's probably more safer for children
as the store will be lit up.
We have a train manager on duty every night overnight
and there will be several staff members
preventing a safe place for children or anyone in need
when the establishment is closed for emergencies only,
of course.
My final comments is the drive-through
at South Harrow restaurant serves many late night customers
including night shift workers from local nearby hospitals
and people who need a place to eat
where most establishments are closed.
Being a good neighbor in a community
is a top priority for me.
And throughout this application,
we have worked closely with local authorities
to ensure the additional hours do not cause disruption
in the area.
We continue to invest in CCTV
to maintain self and welcoming environment
for all our customers.
And additionally, the proposed extended hours
are expected to create 22 new additional jobs
for our local community,
further contributing to local employment
and economic growth.
Thanks.
- I'll invite, since I don't suppose
that the two gentlemen want to present anything?
- I just had to introduce myself.
My name's Tom Russell.
I'm an operations manager for McDonald's.
I've worked for McDonald's for 20 odd years now
in a range of different positions,
starting as a crew member
all the way up to an area manager,
managing restaurants in different parts of the UK as well.
So it's just an introduction, I suppose.
- Thank you.
With that, I will move to questions by the panel.
(muffled speaking)
- Thanks very much.
Thank you very much for the presentation.
I just wanted to go through the concerns from residents
and ask if you could address some of them, please.
So I'm very grateful for obviously the work
that you do with the Harrow Litter Pickers.
I also, you know, support the Litter Pickers,
and I think I've been to one of the picks
at Shaftesbury before.
What the concerns from Artie Halligan were,
and also from Daniel Riordan,
was regarding as well litter.
I know that obviously that you,
as you outlined, you support the Litter Pickers
with picks, hoops, jackets, and graffiti remover.
Obviously, if you extend the hours,
there is that risk of drivers throwing, you know,
rubbish out of their windows onto the floor.
Is there any work going on about trying to improve,
you know, provide some extra bins or larger bins
for drivers to be able to throw rubbish into?
Or I think coming from a resident's point of view,
the concern would be if you extend the hours,
there's more chance of litter to take place.
- So we've spoken to Louise Baxter,
who manages the bid to approach the council,
us investing in some bins
as you go along the four main roads.
The reservation from the council
was that potentially more bins would encourage
more litter in terms of people just dumping litter,
which was their concern. - Fly tipping.
- Fly tipping, which outside the charity shop
on Shaftley Circle is a big concern.
So that is something that we're more than welcome
to consider, more than welcome to speak to the council
about what we can do to help there.
But understand the resident's concern,
but I suppose it's a balance of we don't want to invest
in something that's gonna actually encourage
more fly tipping.
- But is there anything on your premises
that you're looking at doing is more my question.
So I know that obviously, I mean, I've used the,
don't know whether I have to declare it,
but I've used the McDonald's before.
Obviously, I know that when you park at the premises
to consume, there are those big bins
where you can just throw your stuff out the window.
I'm just wondering if perhaps maybe looking
at acquiring one or two more of those
or providing something extra, you know,
the vast majority of people late at night
are gonna take their food home
and eat it on the way or eat it at home.
But there may be those customers who want to park up
at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. in the morning.
I'm just wondering, is that something
perhaps you might consider?
- Yeah, absolutely.
I think we would be more than happy to put additional bins.
I mean, Lee, how many do you have at the moment?
- We've got nine external bins at the moment
around the building.
Obviously, some are in more prominent locations
where we feel footfall is higher.
But there's definitely scope for extra areas
for bins to go in.
- And we've got no objections to that.
- If you visited the restaurant,
you'll see that the bins that we've actually put on site
are target bins, which encourages customers
almost as, not like a game, but it encourages them
to throw the litter in the bin
because it's got a target for them to hit as well.
So that's different to some of the bins
that you'll see throughout different McDonald's
in the UK as well.
- Oh, hi.
I just noticed it's on page 28 about,
you've got a phone number if residents
want to make complaints, but there's no email address,
and I wondered why that was.
- There is an email address.
There's notices around the premises
with a telephone number and my email address on it.
So it's got tom.russell@uk.mcd.com.
It's also on the bottom of every receipt
that every customer gets as well
has got my direct contact details.
So anyone that were to contact the restaurant
if they had any concerns that the store
are very good at being reactive,
so if local residents were to find litter
or have a concern with litter,
we would send someone to pick that up
when and where feasible.
- And it's worth mentioning that Leigh
has had calls from residents,
and your team have gone straightaway to pick that up.
So there is both on notices throughout our drive-through,
email and phone numbers, and on the receipts.
- Yeah, could I also ask about the Uber drivers,
the delivery drivers?
- Yeah.
- Because I don't live far from Shaftesbury Circle,
so I do know your McDonald's fairly well.
And there just seems to be whole rows of them
that they don't always park responsibly either.
- Yeah.
I think with that in mind,
so where they are at the front of the roundabout,
you're sort of just behind, should I say, the roundabout.
So that is adopted land, so it is on our demise, actually.
But Harrow have adopted it, but it is on our premises,
if that makes sense.
So we've allowed the council to build
on highways bus shelter, but again, that is on our demise.
One of the things we have after 11 o'clock,
we do not let them hang out on their bikes outside
after 11 p.m., and they have to come into the restaurant
and wait, they are not allowed to loiter outside.
And from the 2 a.m. license, we have already
implemented that in.
If you prefer them not to park there,
we can always move them and put another area within,
well, I suppose it's all our demise,
but within sort of where the car park demise is.
And that is something we've already spoken about internally,
if that would help residents.
So we're more than happy to move them
into sort of where their car parking facilities are.
- I think it's just important to,
these are independent drivers that work
for our delivery partners, so if we have issues
with where they're parking, we would notify
the delivery partner, so when every order is picked up,
we have an app that you can rate the driver,
so if you have any concerns about their behavior
or conduct, then we would let the free partners know.
- Yeah, and then we can also put messaging,
so if we're just the South Para,
where an app goes onto the mobile phones
to say you need to park here for this location,
so when they arrive, so we've got technology to do that.
But like I said, they will not be there after 11 p.m.,
they're not allowed to hang around on their bikes.
- I have a couple.
So I'm just, one of the things that I noticed
is that the statements regarding 100 meters, for example,
appeared in your original license,
but they don't appear in the conditions for the current one.
Is there a reason for that, or would you accept
that same condition as it is?
- Yes, we would accept it, yes.
- But that's an oversight from our licensing agents,
and then it should be in there as a condition
for the 100 meters.
- Similar oversight, perhaps, is with regards
to an email address which appeared in the original
but does not appear in the new one,
and in the previous one, there was a condition
that you would report to Uber those drivers
that are not following your conditions,
and I imagine it shouldn't be just Uber,
whoever is delivering.
- You're right, all the delivery partners,
which is Uber, Deliveroo, and Justeats,
yes, we would extend that from what it says
from, I suppose, midnight to two a.m. to five p.m.,
should we be granted the license.
- So the current posters, or the reflective signage
is all still up around the drive-through
that has my telephone number and email address on it.
- So you've been working under TENS notice 24/7
for how long?
- 24/2, so Friday and Saturday nights,
so February, March, and April.
- So we've exhausted all of them now.
- So I'm just wondering with regards
to the level of noise, et cetera,
how many cars do you experience on average in those nights,
in those four hours between two and six?
- How many do we think that we would do,
or how many did we do over that time?
- I'm not going to ask about your business predictions,
those are your own, so I'm asking about your experience.
- Yeah, so obviously it's towards the start of the night,
it's busier, and then it peters out as we go on.
You're probably looking at kind of 35 cars in one hour,
and then it'll deplete down.
It's not a high volume of traffic.
We obviously, of course,
we would love to be booming with business,
the reality is that people diminish the later you get.
So we pick up between one and two, two and three,
when residents or people come back
to the place of residency around the area
and use the drive-through facilities,
but then by two, three o'clock--
- That's hard, isn't it, 10 cars?
- Yeah, we're kind of 10, 15 between that time,
three till five is marginal, there's not much there.
- And I think it's worth mentioning,
this was done on a Friday and Saturday,
so which would be generally our most busiest time.
We'd expect the weekdays to be a lot less as well.
- Okay, thank you.
And last question for me is,
with regards to the delivery collections,
do they collect also through the drive-through
or do they go into the restaurant?
- Into the restaurant.
- Right, and they will continue to do that
in those four hours.
So the restaurant itself will be open, it just will sell.
- Yes, so we lock it, don't we?
- So obviously, we have a number of trained managers
that work throughout that day part.
We have some barricades,
so we close the restaurant area off,
the door will remain open for the couriers
and we'll let them in and out as they arrive.
Again, the courier amount will diminish
the later or the earlier we get into the morning time.
So it's not a need to have someone man the door, per se,
but obviously, people will come in and out
as we let them in and they'll wait
in the kind of waiting area in the dining area.
- Thank you, any other questions?
- Just some other things that come to mind.
So I know that you were saying
about all of the other premises across Brent and Harrow.
How many are they, are also 24/7
or are going through the process to come 24/7
and have you had any similar objections
or what have you done in those circumstances?
Just be good to know sort of the wider picture as well.
- So of the ones that I own,
we've got one on Alberton off Hanger Lane.
That's 24 hours, has been since I've owned it
for the last six years and that's in-store
as well as drive-through and delivery.
We also have the one in Brent Park,
so that is opposite where the North Circular IKEA Wembley is.
That's 24 hours in-store, drive-through and delivery.
We also have Wembley Asda in Wembley Park
that I've got the 24-hour license as of three years ago.
I haven't done, I haven't completed 24 hours.
However, this from next week?
- 10th of June.
- 10th of June, we are gonna start to trade 24 hours,
but the license was granted three years ago.
I think that's it and the rest of them are what,
3 a.m. closes?
- Yeah, I think for South Harrow,
we've been mindful of listening to residents.
We understand it's in a residential area.
So unlike Alberton and Brent Park,
which Brent Park is more on a residential area,
which is open inside as well,
where we're conscious that South Harrow
is in the middle of a residential area,
so we don't want to cause any issues
with people loitering around their premises,
which is why we've done drive-through only.
And that's come from consultation with the police
and talking to residents, et cetera,
around what they feel is right as well.
- I mean, I'm very grateful for that
because I certainly think getting that wider context
of this isn't the first one,
it's more of a regular thing now
and the more widespread is important.
And I really respect the way in which you said
that you've been doing this with residents in mind.
'Cause I know if you look at the map,
obviously you've got the school directly behind you,
but you also do have that stretch of properties
right next door.
So certainly when you were saying earlier
about where perhaps the bikes could be parked
whilst they come in to get their couriers,
that might be a really good way to sort of try
work with the community to direct it away from households.
I think that's really, really valuable.
As you said about working with the police,
the only other question I had was about the CCTV.
There's, if you compare what you're applying for
and compare what you've got,
there's a slight difference between the standards
that you're going with, it might just be an oversight,
but in what you're applying for,
it says the standards advised by the home office,
but in the original it says to the satisfaction
of the Metropolitan Police, is that just an oversight
or is it both or is there a specific reason
why we have 31 days of full recording of CCTV
across a whole scope of the restaurant?
- And it's certified as well.
It's far more than the requirement is.
It's so good, in fact, the police do use it often.
So it does stretch out onto the main part of Shaftesbury.
So recently, I think there was a girl crossing the road
and unfortunately got hit by a car
and the police will regularly come and say,
Look, this is your CCTV,
because of the technology we've got,
McDonald's is standard for us,
franchisees is far higher than any other establishment.
So it's quite clear, we can zoom in through number plates.
So it's the top standards you can get.
- Yeah, okay.
- Just following up from that,
there was also, in the original license,
a statement that you would provide footage to the police.
That was rephrased as images,
which suggests that it'd be still images and not footage.
Is that an oversight?
- Yeah, sorry, yeah, it'll be footage.
So it's recorded rather than still images.
- Okay.
Just out of interest,
why apply for a new license and not for a variation
of the existing one?
- It was the advice from the gentleman that did our license
to apply for a new one.
- Okay.
Are there any other questions?
- Yeah, the only final question I've got is,
obviously, you did receive two,
well, we received two objections to this.
What work are you planning to do after tonight
to go back, reassure them,
but also to reassure residents around the area of,
like what you said about the acoustic fencing.
I didn't know that, I hadn't noticed that,
but I think that's a really valid thing
to communicate to local residents.
So I'm just wondering what sort of outward-looking work
might there be that you could do,
maybe like a letter through people's doors
or just something on the premises to say,
Look, we've heard you, this is what we're doing.
'Cause I think it's really important working together.
- I think one of the reasons
that we've been highly involved in the litter picking group
is 'cause that's a direct chance
to speak to local residents.
They are local residents.
We walk with them every Wednesday
and they have breakfast in our establishment.
They'll sit there for an hour
and that's to listen to their concerns,
what challenges they have,
what more we can do to help support them.
And I think it's really important
that we kind of keep that narrative.
On top of that,
we hold quarterly Love Where You Live events,
so that's much larger scowled events
where we'll get staff from all of our restaurants
to trash walk on a bigger scow.
Previously, we've worked with local schools
when we've done that to try and encourage litter
or to try and educate children
on where to dispose of litter,
work with what they can do more to recycle.
We've given coffee beans
to local gardening centers, et cetera, to help.
So I think it's really important that you listen to residents
because they come up with some really good ideas
that actually we're really keen to get behind and work with.
- And I think an answer to your question in communication,
of course, if we're granted,
we would absolutely go and do leaflet drop-offs.
One of the things we've already talked about in turn
is to offer discount for anyone
within sort of a half a mile radius
as well to our restaurant.
But the other thing we also do is we do open days
where we, not just children, but adults,
where we show them behind the scenes
of the recycling programs we have,
environmental, et cetera,
and would open that up to residents
so they can see the artistic fencing that we've invested.
People think it's just a fence around it,
but there is some things that are much more
if you look at the padding and what we've put in there.
But actually, just to talk behind the scenes,
one of the small things people don't know that our oil,
we recycle used oil, and it basically goes to biodiesel,
and the people who deliver all our supplies and food,
it goes back into those trucks.
And how we do that, how do we do the recycling of rubbish?
And there's all these things behind the scenes,
but again, why not open it to the residents?
'Cause right now I've opened it up to,
I've had a lot of people from, what's it called,
John Lyon School, who I've worked a lot with,
and they've come down, they're sixth formers to understand,
but why not do the lethal drop if we're granted,
open it up, as well as talk them through everything
that we do in the local area.
And absolutely, again, if we're granted,
we would go back again to both the objectors,
again, to try and meet with us and have a discussion.
- Okay, thank you very much.
I invite you to make any concluding statements, if you like.
- Sure, thank you.
So I think, just a reminder, look,
it is two a.m. drive-through to midnight.
We have applied for the temporary license,
which we mentioned before.
We've not had aware of any issues
raised by local authorities and the residents.
As you heard, we do conduct local litter picks,
and we have done for many years,
as well as we want to invest in the local economy
by providing additional jobs.
We comply with all requirements
from eight responsible authorities,
and we've offered several conditions
as control measures to support the licensing objective,
specifically addressing crime disorder
and the prevention of public nuisance.
And we've engaged in the license authority
within the Met Police prior to submitting the application
to identify any local issues.
And as you would see, in conclusion,
in appendix one, section five, 5.1, 5.2,
we sought, advised, revised our license,
and we've consulted with Harrah Council, Met Police,
to service, to understand relevant issues in the local area
and formulate conditions to support the licensing objective.
And we hope that the license is granted
and look forward to the outcome.
- Thank you very much.
I'll ask you at this stage,
if you don't mind, to step outside.
Thank you.
(lips smacking)
All right, for the benefit of the recording,
we've just called you in just for one small clarification.
If you don't mind, that will take,
that'll be very quick,
and then we'll be able to complete the discussion, so.
- Do you want me to?
- Councilor Goodwin, for--
- So, just a very quick clarification.
On condition 10, you described the Alfresco area.
Are we correct in thinking that is the outdoor seating area?
- Yes. - Yeah.
- That's where the Playland is.
- Where the Playland, the outdoor area, that's that.
So just to be clear, cool.
'Cause we were just, wanted to clarify
exactly what that referred to.
- Yeah. - Brilliant.
- And you have no objection, sorry, sorry.
If in the conditions, we would define it as such,
as the outdoor seating area.
- Absolutely, yeah.
- Thank you very much.
- Thanks.
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- Thank you.
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- As considered the license,
we've decided to grant the license
for late night refreshments in the drive-through
for 24 hours, in the restaurant until midnight,
as stated in your conditions.
All this is subject to the amendments of the conditions,
as we discussed in the oral submissions earlier,
and we will be sending those amended conditions to you
within the next five days.
- Thank you. - Thank you very much,
everybody, that--
- I should clarify, it's late night refreshment
until 5 a.m., not late night refreshment for 24 hours.
- Thank you for that.
With that, I think we can close the panel.
Thank you very much.
- Thank you very much. - Thank you.
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