Transcript

All right, okay, Chairman, we are live. Okay, thank you very much. And good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Buckinghamshire Council's licensing subcommittee. This hearing's for a variation to premises license located at the Bricklayers Arms 19 Walton Terrace, Aylersbury, HP-217QY. As per the licensing Act 2003, and regulations made their under, licensing subcommittees are not precluded from holding remote meetings, as they are unaffected by the requirements relating to the Local Government Act 1972, and can therefore, for meetings may be conducted online and attended remotely by members and officers. The public and press can still see and hear the meetings through the live webcast, members of the public have been allowed into the virtual meeting to speak where they have registered to do so. I'd firstly like to invite Councillors to introduce themselves. I am Councillor Tony Green, and I represent the Terriers and Amisham Hill Ward, if my two colleagues would like to introduce themselves. I'm Jocelyn flanz, and I represent the Flakkohith Little Marlowe and Marlowe South East Ward. I am Jocelyn Zundrush, and I represent Javel Fonsen-Bieder. Thank you. I'd also like to introduce you to the officers here in attendance. Ms Kerry Ann Ashton is the licensing officer responsible for administering this application and collating the report. She will present the report and provide advice on any matters relating to licensing policy, guidance and practice. Ms Alica Tomlinson is a solicitor in the Council's legal department. She is here to advise me on licensing and local government law. That is to ensure that when the committee makes a decision, it is both within its powers and legally sound. This is Liz Hornby is a Democratic Services Officer supporting this meeting and is able to advise on Council procedures. Also in attendance are the following who will be involved in the meeting at various stages of discussion on the application. You have Desmond Power, the applicant, and you have Ms Hill with you as well. Sorry, she's not on my list, but welcome. And Andrew Goldman, who is the Council's Environmental Health Officer. I can confirm that if a party is not present, their representations will have been read and will be considered when reaching a decision. I would also ask that nobody apart from panel members and officers uses the chat function. We move on to the formal part of the meeting and the gender item two is apologies for absence which Liz, we have none. No apologies, Chairman. And gender item three is the declarations of interest under the Council's Code of Conduct and this just applies to the members of the panel. Do any members have any declarations of interest which they wish to bring to the attention of the subcommittee? No, thank you, so there's none. And then a gender item four, we have the Virtual Licensing Subcommittee Hearing procedural rules which are appended to the agenda pack for information. Could all of the parties in attendance confirm that they have seen and understood the procedure to be followed at the hearing? Great. Excellent. Thank you very much. Is everyone in attendance happy for the hearing to proceed? Great, thank you. The purpose of the hearing should be borne in mind at all times to enable those who have a right to appear to advance their point of view and their point of view and concerns to test the case of their opponents and to assist the subcommittee to gather evidence and understand the relevant issues. Please be reminded that the party should only address the subcommittee in relation to matters previously raised and submitted. The subcommittee may depart from this procedure if it considers it necessary and/or equitable to do so. Do we have any preliminary issues? Licensing Officer? No, thank you, Chair. We don't have any. Thank you very much. In which case we now move on to agenda item five, the substantive item which we will move to consider the Office of Report being presented this afternoon in respect of an application for a variation to a license, to a premises license, located at the Brick Lairs Arms 19 Walton Terrace, Alesbury HP-21-7-Q-Y. Please note that you should only address the subcommittee in relation to matters previously raised. Any late evidence will only be considered with the consent of all parties present. And I would now like to invite the licensing officer Ms. Ashton to present the report outlining the details of the application and representations received. Ms. Ashton. Thank you, Chair. This application has been submitted by Desmond Power in respect to the Brick Lairs Arms Alesbury Buckinghamshire. The premises is located within the town of Alesbury in a mixed area of commercial and residential premises. The premises consists of a, with a beer garden, to the rear of the premises and beyond that car parking for a number of cars. One plan showing the premises is attached to the report marked as Appendix 1, and the current license layout plan is attached as Appendix 2. The original premises license was granted in 2005 as a conversion application and authorized a sale of alcohol, both on and off, between the hours of 10 a.m. and 11 p.m., Monday to Saturday, and 12 p.m. to 10.30 p.m. on a Sunday. This license was granted under delegated powers, and the conditions on page 35 of the current license are just as a result of the conversion of a justice on license. The license was transferred in 2014 to Michelle Montney and Desmond Power. The license was transferred again in 2019 to solely to Desmond Power. The premises applied for a variation of the premises license in January 2015. The variation was to extend the hours to a 1 a.m. Friday and Saturday for the sale of alcohol, add regulated entertainment on a Friday and Saturday from 9 a.m. until midnight, and extend to 2 a.m. on Friday, Saturday and Sunday of bank holidays. During that consultation period, the license was modified, and the granted license was as follows, sale of alcohol, Sunday to Thursday, 12 to 11 p.m. and 12 midday to 1 a.m. Friday to Saturday. Life music, Sunday to Thursday, 9 to 11, Friday to Saturday, 9 to midnight, and recorded music was Sunday to Thursday, 9 a.m. until 11 p.m., and Friday to Saturday was 9 a.m. until midnight 30, and the opening hours, Sunday to Thursday, 9 a.m. until 11 30, and Friday to Saturday, 9 a.m. until 1 30, and a copy of the current license is attached to Appendix 3, which details the current license conditions. This application is for a variation of the current premises license to take immediate effect. A copy of the application form is attached to the report as Appendix 4. The variation sought is to extend the hours for recorded music and for it to be permitted outdoors in the garden, and to remove a condition on the license that states the use of the beer garden will stop at 11. In terms of the proposed activities, there's no proposed change to the sale of alcohol hours. In relation to live music, the hours applied for on the variation are actually less than the current license permits, which is Saturday, 7 p.m. until 10 p.m. and Sunday, 1 p.m. until 8 p.m., and in terms of recorded music, this will add the addition of being outside after 11 o'clock, so Monday to Thursday, 3 p.m. until 11 p.m., Friday, 3 p.m. until 1 a.m., Saturday, 12 p.m., until 1 a.m., and Sunday, 12 p.m., until 11, and no change to the current opening hours. The steps the applicant intends to take to promote the licensing objectives are set out in their operating schedule, see Appendix 4. During the consultation period, in terms of responsible authorities, the local environmental health authorities submitted a representation during the consultation period. A copy of the representation is attached as Appendix 5, and Mr. Government is here today. In terms of representation from other persons, since the report was first published, the representation has been withdrawn. I would draw members' attention to the provision in the licensing act under the deregulation act that amplified live or recorded music does not require authorization when playing on licensed premises that are authorized and open for the sale of alcohol on the premises for audience up to 500 between the hours of 8 a.m. and 11 p.m. In addition to the mandatory conditions, we're together with the conditions proposed by the applicant and the responsible authorities are considered appropriate for recommendation to the licensing committee to address any concerns raised in the objections if a premises license is granted. In terms of policy considerations, regard must be given to the Council's licensing statement policy, which was published in March 2022 when determining this application. Part C promoting the licensing objectives states the licensing authorities seeks to encourage the highest standards of management in licensed premises and expects this to be demonstrated through their operating schedules. In preparing their application, applicants are strongly encouraged to consider the terms of this policy in general and this chapter in particular. In considering applications, the licensing authority will also take this policy as a starting point. In considering variation applications, decisions concerning conditions will be confined to subject matter of the application as per case law. In practice, this means that conditions will not be imposed in response to a variation application that does not relate to the application sought. In relation to the prevention of public nuisance licensing objective, section 3.36 states the licensing authority will consider whether the measures proposed to deal with the potential for public nuisance having regard to all circumstances of the application are adequate. Much weight will be placed on the recommendations made by environmental health in terms of preventing public nuisance. Particular measures include measures to deal with noise escape, smokers, customers, departures, outside areas. Regard must also be had to the National Guidance issued by the Home Office under section 182 of the Licensing Act. In relation to prevention of public nuisance, the statutory guidance states, the 2003 Act enables licensing authorities and response authorities to consider what constitutes public nuisance and what is appropriate to prevent it in terms of conditions attached to specific premises licenses. It is therefore important that in considering the promotion of this licensing objective, licensing authorities and responsible authorities focus on the effect of the licenseable activities at the specific premises on persons living and working in the area around the premises, which may be disproportionate or unreasonable. Public nuisance is given a statutory meaning in many pieces of legislation. It is however not narrowly defined in the 2003 Act and does retain its broad common law meaning. Conditions relating to noise nuisance will normally concern steps appropriate to control the levels of noise emanating from premises. Any conditions appropriate to the promotion to promote the prevention of public nuisance should be tailored to the type, nature and characteristics of the specific premises and licenseable activities. Where applications have given rise to representations, any appropriate conditions should normally focus on the most sensitive periods and certain circumstances conditions relating to noise emanating from the premises may also be appropriate to address any disturbances anticipated as customers enter and leave. Beyond the immediate area surrounding the premises, these are matters for the personal responsibility of individuals under the law. Any individual who engages in antisocial behaviour is accountable in their own right. However, it would be perfectly reasonable for a licensing authority to impose a condition following relevant representations that require a license holder to place signs at the exits from buildings encouraging patients to be quiet until they leave the area. In terms of determination by the licensing subcommittee, the subcommittee is obliged to determine applications in light of the above and any other material considerations with a view to promoting the four licensing objectives. Regard must be head to the council's licensing policy, home office guidance issued under section 1-8-2 of the licensing act. Any relevant representations received and the evidence presented at the hearing, each application must be considered on its own merit and any conditions attached to the premises license must be tailored to the individual style and characteristics of the premises. The following options are available to the licensing subcommittee to grant the variation application in full or part to reject the whole of the variation application, to grant the variation application subject to different conditions. In terms of the operating schedule of conditions, I have drafted some conditions on page 22 of the report and what I'd like to determine today is are the conditions being offered on page 47 of the application form? Are they conditions to update the current license conditions or are they just specifically in relation to the variation application? Finally, there's a condition in the applicant's application form on page 47 that states no children on the premises after 7pm and a question to clarify with the applicant is did they intend for that to be a condition of the license? You need me to go through any conditions, Chairman, I can do that now or later, but that's the end of my report. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much for that report. When I ask the applicant if they have any questions for you, Mr. Powell, have you got any questions for the licensing officer? Sorry, is that a no, okay, thanks. Mr. Goldman, have you got any questions for the licensing officer? No, thanks. And members of any questions for the licensing officer? Councillor TOWNS? Yes, I just wondered, it's said that required legal sound levels would be met, but what are they? Because I'm not sure what legal sound levels are. Where's that? Sorry, referred to in the, is that? I didn't make a note of which page it was on. If I can assist, it's in page 47, it's under the operating schedule, Kerry Ann, and there's reference to sound level metering there and in the additional page of communications from the applicant. Thank you, Alika. Yes, so obviously the applicant is keen to remain within any statutory recommendations for noise limits. Mr. Goldman's probably the best person to respond in terms of are there any statutory recommendations that they should be adhering to? Yes, and how would they be monitored and recorded? I think it might be better to wait for Mr. Goldman's presentation and then he can detail it in terms of the noise, nuisance kind of elements of that, if that's OK, Chair. So, I'm sorry, Chair, I'm only. Thank you. Any further questions, Councillor TOWNS, at the moment? Last at the moment. OK, Councillor RUSH, any questions for the licensing officer? Yes, Tony, I have. In Kerry, you cite quite serious anti-social behaviour, but if there is a non-objection, why do the matter is? Sorry, I'm not quite sure I caught all the question. Sorry. There's some fuzzy feedback on the... I did. And the police are not objecting, but you've cited quite serious ASB. Yes, so the police have not objected to this application, obviously, as previously discussed, we did have a representation from another party. No, that's been withdrawn, sorry, you can't refer to that. Yes, so I think that's what Mr. Councillor RUSH is referring to in my report in terms of the ASB issues that were obviously raised, which have been withdrawn from the hearing. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor RUSH, and on the subject of complaints, have the licensing department received any previous complaints? I mean, I understand this pub has traded for probably a few hundred years, but certainly quite a long time. Have we got any recorded complaints regarding noise or problems with licensing for this license? Yes, Chair. There was a complaint that I dealt with back in 2022 with regards to the premises. It was with regard to a live band, but I believe they were actually operating under a 10 for that event, but there was a complaint received about that, but other than that, I don't have any other recorded complaints on the system. Okay, thank you very much. Members got any other questions? No. In which case, we'll move on to the applicant. I'd like to invite the applicant, Mr. Powell, to present his case, call any witnesses if required, so would you now like to address the committee? Thank you very much. We can't hear you. I don't know if you're on mute. I still can't hear. Can anyone else hear? Sorry, we seem to… So can I check, Mr. Powell, what device are you using in relation to, you're not going to be able to tell me, are you using a phone? Or are you using a laptop? A laptop? Are you on… so you're on teams on the laptop. Okay, when you look at the screen in front of you, on the top right-hand side, you have the red button for leave, you have the button for share, and then you have the microphone picture. To the right of the microphone picture is a drop-down, is an arrow to drop-down. If you click on that, you have in front of you, it should say speaker, and then it's got headphones and various buttons, and I'm assuming your blue button will be on speakers. For microphone, is it on headset, or is it on microphone, mind says microphone array audio? So have you changed it from headset to audio, because we still can't… So then, okay, so then if you go to the bottom of the screen, and you click on hidden icons, you will have your image of the speaker. Do you want to look at what volume that's on, and use the slide bar to increase the volume, see if that makes any difference? No. And they rejoin. Yeah. Yeah, if we kind of adjourn for a minute while they log off and log back in again, I think that. I'll give us a more cup for you. Okay, we've restarted, Chairman. Lovely. Thank you very much. In which case would the applicant now like to make their presentation? Thank you. Well, basically since COVID, as most businesses in this industry are struggling, and we need to utilise what we have, and we have more garden than we have pub. So it's a case of trying to attract more people in, especially younger people, and the pub itself is three small areas. So having sort of bands or music in the bar is very difficult. So the other option was in the garden, so we pretended maybe to put a stretch tent over the garden to be able to have music and people outside till one o'clock in the morning over the weekends. Now, we're not playing thrash metal, it will be just like chilled music, you know, we're quite aware of the noise levels, we have noise metres to make sure everything is kept to the legal limits. Speakers will be facing away from the houses to try and stop the noise going towards the surrounding people. So there's any sort of five or six houses behind us, that they have their gardens as well, that they have a backyard and fully get to their houses. The people to the back of us, there's quite a distance between us and them, because the case of just me hopefully trying to keep the business going really and struggling signs. We do appreciate, you know, we haven't, so we've had that one issue back in 2002, but that was a private party for a friend of mine as a birthday, but we won't be playing that sort of music. That was more of a rock band, we won't be playing rock music at time and night, it will be sort of chilled recording music. Basically it really, I say as a business, you need to do something to make sure we can carry on, and the garden is our only option really. Okay, thank you for that, see if there's any questions for you. Mr Ashton, have you got any questions for the applicant? No questions at the moment, thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Government, have you got any questions for the applicant? Yes, I do, Chair, so if I can just crack on with a few of those, that's okay. So apologies for the power, we haven't met, we have spoken on the phone, haven't we, that was a couple of weeks ago in the run-up to a discussion really about representation regarding your application. So if I can just touch on a few points, and one of these probably is going to cover off the question asked by Councillor Towns, is that in your application in terms of control of public nuisance or prevention of public nuisance, and in addition to your letter that came in, I think, last week, you've mentioned on a couple of occasions about music being kept at correct or legal levels, could you disaspaint to the panel what they are? So the internet tells us that we shouldn't have music playing louder than 87 festivals at a maximum time, that we have a sound meter that we can use in the garden, and so we can monitor how loud our music is to make sure it isn't going over that number. The only information we have is what we find online, and that kind of is consistent with what we find. So that's the limit we stick to here. Right, so what's that information related to, is it a British standard or some case law? Yes, the law, it says that UK laws of the outside music should not exceed 87 festivals in public areas, so that's what we try and keep up. We keep our music hands up. Right. I must advise the panel, I'm not aware of that guidance at all, so if you could provide me some reference to the panel, I think that would be quite useful because there's a number of published documents and British standards to do with control with noise from events, and I'm a little bit interested by that figure of 87 because it's not a figure I'm familiar with. Okay, it's on our website called, the website information I use is called Health and Safety Executive, and it says employees' responsibilities and legal duties, and it says the control of noise at work regulation requires employees to prevent noise under 87 festivals. Okay. So that's just the information that we've used with it. All right, so just for the avoidance of doubt, that's from a health and safety executive to do a noise at the workplace. We have noise levels, yeah, and does that make any reference to public nuisance? It doesn't specify, it just says, it says these are the levels that should not be exceeded, and that's daily and weekly, so I presume if it was, we just kind of presumed it would be the same. There's nothing really set in stone anywhere that says how loud your outside music needs to be, but we try to be respectful to people that are surrounding us, so keeping it within levels that are suitable for our employees, keeping it relevant to that. Okay. All right. The next point you kind of touched on a little bit is you use a sound level meter. Can you just explain to the panel because obviously it's a control measure, you're offering it, I'm not, you're offering it, how would you use a sound level meter? It's just what is, it just looks like a microphone, yes, and you can make it to different parts of your premises, and it registers the sound level, so you know whether it's too loud or how loud it is at a certain point in your premises. So inside is not so much outside, so the closer you get to people's properties, the better it is of knowing how loud it is. So you've mentioned the user sound level meter, so how long would you take a measurement over? So what we would say is that usually with music it wouldn't change, the volume wouldn't, it would be kind of set because it's not, it's just coming from speakers, so once you have a reading of it, you know what it is, so we wouldn't expect it to go any louder than the maximum if that makes sense, so it wouldn't need to be done throughout the night because the music level wouldn't change. How would it measure the change in the content of the music? In what respect? Well if you go from a piece of music, if a low-based content to a higher-based content, how would you manage that? Oh, so we could add something in our procedures that say we would take readings hourly or half hourly if that was sufficient, if that's what people wanted. I mean we try and kind of keep everybody happy, we're trying to be respectful, we're trying to bring in business, we're trying to keep everybody, so if that was something that was expected of us then that's something that we would meet, because if same as using security staff, bringing them in to keep people safe, if that was something that was suggested to us and that was something that was recommended to us then it's something that we would comply with. Well, just from my point of view, obviously it's you who are proposing this license variation and you're putting forward this as a control measure, so I imagine the panel will be interested is what you precisely mean by that and how reliable it is because it is a prevention of public nuisance objectives. Yes, right now it's obviously something we don't need to worry about right now because we don't have music outside very late now, so it's something that we are trying, we're happy to introduce, so it's a bit of a trial and error thing for us now, but yes that's what we propose, use a sound meter to keep a track throughout the evenings, one of the ideas has the evening of our music. If I just move on to the next question, mention is made of a stretch ten and in the letter that came in I think last week, unfortunately the letter isn't dated, so I can't refer to that, but the type letter coming in, mention reference to the stretch and will contain a certain amount of sound inside the tent, so you mentioned the word certain, what would that be? So certain parts of the tent would come from the ground, so it would be, it wouldn't be open around all areas of the tent, obviously where people come in and out, but there will be some level of dips in the tent where it's pinned to the ground, so it wouldn't be completely open. Do you think is that it? I suppose while I was getting it, the phrase it was used, certain amount of sound, not amount of ten, amount of sound, so what would be the amount of sound that would be kept in the tent as a concert? I'd mean maybe potentially to mean that, but it's not going to be open, so the sound isn't going to be going out completely from the tent, the tent's going to cover the garden as almost like a roof, but not obviously a sealed roof. So the music would stay, obviously not inside the tent, but I would expect it to muffle, to some degree. Okay, so when you win that letter and it said certain amount, it's not a certain amount, you believe it is something, but you don't know how much, is that right? No, it's not. We don't know, because it looks like it goes up. It would be something, it's not going to be nothing, again we can't, we can't be exact on that, because every weekend as well the music that we present will be the same, like you said about monitoring the level of the bass on a different, each song is different, so it's something that we don't intend, it's not going to be an open, it's not open, it is going to be covered, and the fences around the gardens are high anyway, so it's not like we're in a flat, a low area where, you know, there is no privacy at all. Okay, and my final question, I'm sure people you have to hear that, Ms Ashton mentioned that applications are advised to have regard for Council's licensing policy, and I think in particular you mentioned prevention and public nuisance provisions within the policy, how's your application had regard to those? It would be door staff. Right. And we have signage up asking, we've always had signage up asking our customers to be respectful when to leave the premises quietly. I also remember that there is another three pubs around this area, so you know, we can look after, if there is noise, it doesn't always say it's just coming from the brick by his arms, we have to rent one of the three pubs, there is, you know, it's a public road. So we will do our best to keep our customers behaving themselves. I mean, we do try, I mean, taxis do tend to come to the back of the pub anyway, they don't stop out the front on the main roads, that's something that they're not, I don't think actually they're allowed to stop out there, so, you know, the area that people leave that in their taxis is the same, and that's actually in our car park, so that's not out the front and that's, that won't cause any nuisance or disturbance at the front of the pub. But like I said, we do tend to use door staff and security measures to make sure that, you know, our customers are behaving as they should. Right. Thank you very much for that, that's me, don't you? Thank you very much. Now members turn, have any, members got any questions for the applicant? Councillors, how do you keep an eye on what's going on in the, in the pub and in the garden, do you have CTT? CTT, yeah. And does that go into the garden? Into the garden and if you get the application, it will be under the tent as well, so we'll have, we'll have all over visual contact, we'll see what's going on. Okay. Thank you. So, Councillor Rush, have you any questions? Yes, thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Power, how many pubs are close to you? You said there are three pubs, how close are they? One is literally across the road. One is 300 yards up the road and the other one is probably 500 yards up the road. And do they have, do they have beer gardens? Two of them, well, two have gardeners and one has a courtyard. And do they have beerers in the outside? Broadly, yes, they all do. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you. I have a number of questions for you, Mr. Power. Firstly, do you know any, roughly, how long your premises has been a pub? We know it's an old building. We looked back at years ago, it was originally called the White Lion, it's alleged in the second old, it's now, it's been so 500 years. So, it predates the residents around, quite clearly. It predates most places in Hillsbury. Yeah. Okay, thank you. On the sound meter you have, do you currently have music in the garden? I understand. But only up to 11 o'clock, is that correct? It is, yes. And do you monitor that with the sound meter? No, but it's fairly low. Well, it's really important, we should probably actually try it. We've never had any issues, apart from that one party a few years back, we've never had an issue with the neighbours. Okay, but you said that's fairly low. Is your intention then to, if you have later music, to have it louder? We say we're not talking, we're not playing a motorhead, it's going to be sort of chill music, it will be, it will be, it will be a louder, and we're not talking, you know, blowing the roof off. Now, we have, we have chills in our own here, so you know, it's, it's a bit respectful to everybody. Okay, no, I'm just trying to judge what the level, so are you, I mean, the same levels of music, but later in the evening, or, all right, I'm a little bit louder, later in the evening. Okay, why would you turn the music up louder once it went past the 11 o'clock? We'll just wait a minute, there'll be more speakers. At the moment, we only have like sort of small speakers that died round, whereas you'll have sort of bigger speakers. Just the, a lot of the music we predominantly have had, I've been bands that we've brought into the garden and who play their, their music their way, whereas we, we plan to have maybe DJ, a DJ or something like frequently on a Friday and Saturday night, that kind of music, so it's not necessarily bands every single weekend, which is where it'll be the different, where the difference is. Oh, sorry, that's what I'm trying to establish. You're saying about speakers, are they going to be fixed speakers? So music will be paid through a PA system that you control, or are they bands that come in and bring their own PA systems with them? Oh, the music will be, the bands will, there'll be no bands going past 11 o'clock anyway. The bands will not be going on late at night. It's mainly just, it'll be like partner in like DJ music. There'll be no, there'll be no bands past 11 o'clock. Okay, I mean DJ, up to one o'clock. I mean DJ music can, can, all to completely, depending on who's playing music and what it is. We wouldn't let it. It's just not really our, to our style really, the kind of part and the customers that we have. It's not, we don't expect to have drum and bass every single weekend. But that is not that kind of, it's not what we bring here. So the bands that will come, the bands that will come along will play their music, how they play. But with the, with the DJ in their speakers, will be fixed speakers, but we don't intend it to be loud and heavy. You're mute, Tony. Can't hear you. He's on mute. Sorry. You know, from my own experience, you know, if you're measuring with a sound meter, the, the decibel reading can alter quite dramatically on a single set, depending on what particular bit of the music the band's playing. So, you've actually said the bands, the bands will not be on a Friday and Saturday night. Most bands we've had are on a Sunday afternoon, there will be no bands on a Friday night or a Saturday night after 11 o'clock. I wouldn't, it would be half past 11 o'clock would be the latest a band would go to. It's mainly for DJ music. Yeah. But the variation you're, your requesting would allow bands to play after 11 o'clock as I understand. You wouldn't do that. This is not really for bands. This is mainly for DJ music. So you'd be happy to have it restricted to just recorded music after 11 o'clock. If it was just recorded, that would be fine. So if we had bands, the bands wouldn't go past 11 o'clock anyway, because as you say, that would be too loud. That's, you know, more respectful. Okay. No, that's, that's a helpful clarification. If you're now saying you'll be happy with the condition that restricted to music after 11 o'clock just to be recorded. Yeah. Yeah. I just have one more question if I may. So, Councillor Russell, I'll allow you to come in. Thank you very much, Mr. Power, I am a bit of a downer, so what is chilled music? Chilled music? Well, we'd probably probably sort of, so yes, we're not, we're not talking mode ahead, you know, slick not, not things like that. Not heavy rock music, just sort of just chilled, or easy listening sort of music. Okay. Fine. Thank you. Radio two type music, I think you mean, dude. Yes, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. We are a member of the pub watch scheme as well, so, you know, we try to do our best to keep everything, you know, it's a pub. We know one hassle. We're part of the pub watch, you know, looking after people, make sure everything is done properly. Okay. I'll just, a final question on the sound thing. You say you monitor it with a sound level meter. Would you be willing to have a sound limiter installed that controlled the outside music? That would cut it off if it went over a certain preset limit? We would do, but I don't know how that would, how that would work. It, it, just if a certain decibel level is reached, it cuts off the electricity to whatever is playing the music. It would cut off with a load of people, you know, that could be a bit dangerous. No, they're not the whole of it, just to the sound system. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can look at yes, yes. Okay, because you, you're saying about this tent you're talking about. I mean, presumably that's not going to be made of acoustic material, it's just going to be an ordinary tent, so. It will, it will keep, you know, it will keep some noise in because it's, it's, it's still a covering, you know, we are surrounded by a, we have a, we have a pencil all the way around. It's not as if it's open to the public, you know, it's open, it's open air, the music is just blasting out. It will keep a, some sound in the tent. And say, okay, we'll be pointing it away from the residents in, if it's, we'll talk towards the town. Yeah. It'll, it'll, it'll all best, you know, keep everyone happy. And we'll, sorry, will the speakers be fixed then? So, they're always. No, no, no, no. They'll be there, they'll do you, I'll bring his own speakers in and out. You will instruct him how to position them. Oh yeah, let's, yeah. Okay. No, thank you very much. I haven't got any more questions to Councillor Towns or Rush, have you got any additional questions? No, not me. Okay. Well. Can I just, sorry to, can I just clarify, um, Carrie Anne, as part of her presentation, I've made, asked a couple of questions. Just about your application and the operating schedule, are the proposals that you've put in the operating schedule intended as, uh, conditions to update the license? Or are they conditions that you're proposing as part of your wider variation? Is there two separate things, sorry, Miss Hall, I can see you're looking puzzled. I'm not sure who the questions do. Is it to ask or is it to get me? It's no. It's, yeah, it's your application. Yes. Sorry, so what did you ask? Sorry. The question that I have is, in, as part of your application, you've put in a node of, there are various observations made at page 47, which is, uh, under section 16 to 18 licensing objectives and how you propose to promote the licensing objectives. Are you intending that those, uh, suggestions are included as a simple update of the conditions of your license or are you putting forward those, uh, conditions as part of your variation application, i.e., if you grant us the, um, access to the garden and the extended ads for the music, we would include these conditions as part of that variation application, or are they two separate things? Do you understand the point I'm asking? No, I don't understand. I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure. I know. We were just, we're just wanting to. Just basically like extend our license to 11 to 11. To allow us to use the garden. Right. So what? You've put in. Okay. If you look at your application, you have put in under the four licensing objectives. For example, the prevention of crime and disorder, the CCTV system shall continually record and it gives a whole load of, it gives information about the CCTV system. Are they just comments in support of your application to extend the, um, use of the garden, basically? So we, I think what it was, is that we added some bits to say that if we got the license, we would happily comply with those conditions too. So you can, we're happy to add it. Right. But if you mean, so, right. So that, okay, we're getting there. So, so just to be absolutely clear, um, Ms. Hel, so what you're saying is you put those in as additional conditions that you would be happy to comply with if you had the extended use of the garden. Yes. That's correct. It's not simply merely updating your conditions, even if you didn't get the extended use of the garden. So it's probably just, some of them are probably not overly necessary, but I mean, we, we're happy to look into it if we need to, but yes, it was, is it was to. Yeah. If we got the. In support of your application. Yes. Right. Yes. Right. A recession. Does that clarify for you the point, um, that you were asking on that the purpose of those conditions? Yes. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Um, under protection from children from harm, you've put no children on the premises from seven p.m. So were you offering up as condition that there will be no children admitted to the licensed premises? Um, no children present on the premises from seven p.m. onwards. Just on Fridays and Saturdays when the music license extended and the garden, the use of the garden was go on, keep going, just so the garden was still one a.m. We would, we'd ask children to leave by seven p.m. Okay. So it's again, only if the, um, your wider, so we do have, because we have a small function room inside the pub, um, that we do use, um, for parties, people hire it for christmas for, um, that kind of thing where we do allow children in for them kind of things. It's not something we, we have in the pub regularly. We don't have children, but the, the amount of children we have in the pub, but generally, um, we, yeah, we are happy if, if necessary to have children not in the garden from seven p.m. Well, if the license is extended and we are having music out there, or the finance that's the evening. Yes. Okay. So if, so just to be absolutely clear, because I just need to make a note of it, you're saying that you are agreeable if they're, if the use of the garden is extended for, you know, what I mean, um, that there will be no children, uh, admitted to the premises from seven p.m. Yeah. Or present on the premises, I guess it would be, wouldn't it, Ms. Ashton. So there'll be no children present on the premises from seven p.m. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that all right? Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you. Um, if there's no more questions to the applicant, uh, I know I asked the question. I asked Mr. Gopman to, uh, speak to you, the committee. Mr. Gopman. Thank you, Chairman. Um, I think my representation is fairly straightforward. My written rep and it just explains really that, uh, the guidance that this surrounds use of beer guards and external entertainment areas, uh, is really quite clear and it points out the reasons why it has to be quite clear is that the ability to control noise outdoors is very limited. And that's why it plays like nightclubs and so forth or indoors and not outdoors. Uh, I think it's pretty worth pointing out that my concerns are not, and that's been an awful lot of discussion about the music, but very little about patron noise. And so issues about, uh, noise limiters and so forth would not offer any control about patrons. And my experience as an environmental health officer is we do get quite a lot of complaints about how patrons conduct themselves off. They've had a few drinks and then the noise that they make so it's quite separate from the entertainment side of things, but it is linked to the application because they're already in that garden or would be in that garden if the application was granted by virtue of the license. So I just sort of make that point really, um, I think, you know, my representation was before obviously the hearing and so that perhaps I just touched upon some of the questions and the answers I received earlier on this afternoon. So just cap off in the order to ask them really was about the noise levels with the figure that was cited 87 decibels. The reason why I was a little bit bemused by that is because it's got nothing to do with environmental noise limits. It comes from the noise at work regulations through deafness. So the level that's been cited is such is to protect people from permanent hearing damage. This is nothing to do with noise relating to an urban environment that disturbs sleep. So I think that I've got concerns about when an application makes reference to a limit and that limit has got no grounding in this kind of situation. I'm kind of concerned about that. Then it's about the sound level meter is that in a several level meters are easy to acquire but they are difficult to operate and to understand that appropriately and I've done with to be unkind but the information I've received this afternoon is that I'm not confident that a sound level meter would be used to be able to effectively control noise and I think that's what we're looking at in an application like this is, is there a risk associated with the proposed course of action, i.e. regulated entertainment and patrons using the garden beyond 11 p.m. that's beyond 11 o'clock watershed for sleep protection purposes. And are the communication measures enough to control that risk? And I have obviously concerns about that in terms of the level of being cited is inappropriate, I'm not sure sound level meter, how that would be used, particularly regarding changes in music, changes in the frequency content that it's a movement to a higher base level of music would change its impact and I'm not sure how that would be picked up in terms of the control measures that have been offered. Turning to the issue about the stretch 10, I mean, generally speaking and as the Institute of Acoustics guidance sets out is that Marquis and tents of that nature do not restrict the propagation of sound in any meaningful way. So it might technically make an impact of one or two decibels or something like that but not be material in that sense. So I'm concerned about any proposal or proposed suggestion that the stretch is a mitigation measure in terms of noise, I don't believe that it is. So going back to my main sort of points really is that guidance would suggest 11 o'clock actually earlier, but 11 o'clock I think is out in the current license, I was concerned when I wrote the representation about the impact that would have on the local residents. I think I heard this afternoon, I'm even more concerned about that and so I can't propose a control measure that might be of use to the panel because I don't know how it would work in practice. I mean, with noise is created outdoors and there is no meaningful pathway block to that in terms of a building, then it's very likely given the proximity of those properties that local residents would be as first the noise that would interfere their sleep. Because there's a number of premises, residential premises in the area, I believe that meets the public nuisance tests out in common law. So I think not only would it affect a reasonable number of people, it would fit them materially and the control measures that have been proposed I don't think are adequate and I can't think of any and that's what I put in my, well I spoke to Mr. Power but when I said about any further controls coming forward, I haven't heard anything yet that makes me feel there are any more control measures that can either be put forward by the applicant and I can't think of any either and that's why I've suggested that the extension will relaxation if we can put it in terms of use of the garden is not limited because that's me done. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much for that. Has the applicant got any questions for Mr. Goldman? One thing that I wanted to just add to what we said was that you mentioned about the noise of the customers, our customers leave in the pub if we were to have a later garden license. I mean, we already are allowed to serve alcohol until that time anyway so our customers already leave the premises at that time and we don't have an issue currently with public nuisance or noise disruption when our customers leave here at that late. That's something I want to say that we definitely don't, I don't feel we have that issue. The other thing would be difficult to answer that point if it's a question, sorry, because I believe it's a question. I didn't mention any reference about patrons accessing or egressing the site, I talked about patrons in the beer garden. Also, this pub has been in for 500 years. We've put all the notices up and no one has put an issue in against it. All the residents know we're not one person objector to it. You buy close to a pub, you've got to expect some sort of noise, 500 years this pub's been here, then the house has been here a couple of hundred years. Not one of them has made a complaint against this application, apart from you. If I can answer that, if I believe that is another question. I think it was a statement, but yeah, I'll take it to that point. I think the current understanding of nuisance law as clarified by the Tate Modern case, which went into Supreme Court last year, was that the idea about who came first as an irrelevant concept, where it comes to nuisance, is about whether one person's land use is causing unreasonable interference with another. So, who came first is not an illegally accepted principle with regards to nuisance. With regards to other people making representations or not, I'm not able to comment on that. I am talking to the prevention of public nuisance license objective, and that's what I'm concerned about. And of course, any reference to whether there's been any complaints about use of the beer garden, well, I would argue there haven't been any cause for complaints because of the existence of the existing condition regarding vacation at 11pm. So, I don't see how it could be evidence to say that, or one, you've been used to hours later than that. Have you any further questions for Mr Gopman? No. Members, any questions for Mr Gopman? Councillor Towns. No, I don't think I have. Councillor Russ. Thank you, Chairman. Mr Gopman, did you say it was impossible to measure accurately the nuisance level of sound outside? I don't believe I actually said that. However, what I will clarify at that point is that English law in terms of nuisance has never adopted an absolute sound pressure level of this metric, and that's why I was interested by the application to say it is complying with legal limits is there is no prescribed legal limit in terms of noise. And so the Environmental Protection Act, for example, talking about statute noise nuisance is it doesn't mention sound decibels or sound pressure levels at all. So it is about the level of interference and whether it's reasonable or not. So this idea about sound level meat is, I think, could be potentially a bit of a red herring because it implies that we govern noise in this country in terms of nuisance with direct reference to sound level meat is that they are not the arbiter with the Gaston nuisance law without it. So what is the arbiter? Well, it's a judgment about whether levels of interference are reasonable or not. Thank you. Thank you. And I have some questions. You said that you haven't had any complaints from this premise or about this premise with sound levels or disturbance from residents departing when the pub shuts, is that correct? I think that made the point that my representation related to that patron noise on the premises. And then there was a suggestion that I made that connection with patrons coming or going and I haven't made any comment about that. No, but I've asked you whether you've had any complaints about noise created by patrons coming and going. No, we haven't. Not to do with patrons coming or going to the premises, no. But my understanding from the site plan is that if patrons are parked in the car park to access or leave the premises, they will go through the beer garden at the rear. And therefore, any noise they make going in that will come from that area. Is your understanding the same? Well, well, quite possibly. I mean, obviously, how patrons come and go is one thing is how they conduct themselves whilst they do that. But obviously, if patrons are accessing the beer beer garden and going out that way, then that could be an additional point of source of noise. But that wasn't something that was in the forefront of my mind, I have to say. It was when the patrons were in the beer garden late at night. But you're making that a major point of your objection, the fact that the noise from patrons, I think you said it, rather than actually the music. Now, if patrons are already using that site after 11 o'clock, which they will do to leave the pub at night to access their cars in the car park and go home, and you haven't had any complaints, is that a reasonable supposition on your part? Because it is just a supposition, isn't it? Well, yes, I mean, obviously, the prevention of public nuisance is all about prevention, and then it's all about estimation, about where it's like to be a problem. What I would say is that we have extensive experience of doing with noise from patrons in beer gardens and external entities and spaces. And also, if patrons come in going from premises, but I'm not sure that, I mean, my representation is relating to the music and also patrons being in the garden. So I just want to be clear about that. There is discussion about whether it's a relationship for patrons coming or going, but as far as I know, patrons come and go relatively quickly, whether this is talking about or proposal is to have people in a beer garden for several hours after 11 o'clock when local residents have a reasonable expectation of sleep, so it's that long, concentrate long. Okay, I mean, I would disagree, actually, about residents, the customers tend to go relatively quickly. In my experience, people kind of hang around as they're leaving and chatter on their way out and do generate some noise, but you have your view on that. I have to say, I am surprised that you are concerned, I mean, I understand you have these concerns, but you have no previous evidence of any noise complaints from this premise, and no other statutory authority has objected. If I would have thought licensing would have raised concerns from what you're saying, on your concern with the level of noise that you think will be generated by patrons being in the beer garden, and are you not surprised that no local residents who you think will be seriously affected by this have raised the concern to this committee in respect of this licensing variation application? Well, in answer to the earlier question, I can't really explain why other responsible authorities have why they've made a rep or not made a rep. I think it's fair to say that the responsible authority that I represent has a very long health scene as being the main responsible authority, regardless of the public use of it's license and objective, so I thought police would have concentrated the matters on public safety and the like, and so I wouldn't necessarily expect the police, in fact, they rarely comment on matters of noise because it's not their main area of competence, if I can say it like that. With regards to the local residents, again, I can't explain why they might or might not make a representation. I mean, obviously, there was a representation, but that's withdrawn, but I can't explain why they might or might not move forward for their comments about that. Okay, thank you, I have no more questions for you, thank you very much. And we now, if there's no further questions for anyone, we move on to the closing submissions, and these will be in the following order, first the licensing officer, then the applicant and then the other interest party, which is Mr. Goldman, on behalf of Environmental Health. So can the licensing officer, Ms. Ashton, give her closing submission? Thank you, Chair. Thank you. I just wanted just to make a point of clarity in terms of license of activities and deregulated entertainment. Obviously, the premises already has permission to have live music indoors after 11 o'clock and recorded music indoors after 11 o'clock. In terms of live music, the hours that they've put on the application form is actually less than the deregulation permits, so they would be permitted live music in the garden between 8 a.m. and 11 p.m. But I just, there was just a point during the applicant's submission that he mentioned bands after 11 o'clock, and obviously I just wanted to make that point of clarity that they haven't actually applied for live music in the garden after 11 o'clock. And just some clarification with regards to DJs, obviously they are permitted, they've applied for recorded music in the garden after 11 o'clock, and obviously there's some differences between a performing DJ who comes and does live mixes, and then a DJ that just comes and plays some tracks, and obviously just as the applicant's referring to having DJs in the garden obviously I would just clarify that that would be under recorded music, revision, and not live music, and I think that was everything that I wanted to cover, sorry, thank you, Chair. Okay, thank you very much. In the applicant, Mr. Powell, would you like to give a closing submission? Just me, what I've already said to, which is we're a small business, just try and make the best of what we've got, and say since COVID, things are a struggle, so for us to go forward this, we're taking this big gamble for us, it's a lot of money, we want to make sure it's done properly, and we don't want to have poles that are neighbours or with any authorities, so we will do our best to keep everything as it should be, we're just trying to keep another pub open. Right, thank you very much. We've had no complaints from the residents around here, none of them have complained, so I think that's the problem, but there we go. Okay, thank you, and finally, Mr. Kaufman, would you like to give a closing submission? I have really nothing more to add, I mean I think I've explained the position of the responsible authority regarding this, and I'll leave it at that. Okay, thank you very much. Can I ask if everyone feels that they have had a fair hearing on this matter? Yes, thank you very much. Lovely, thank you very much. In which case the subcommittee will now retire together with the legal adviser and democratic services officer for the matter to be determined. The subcommittee will come to a decision which will be sent to the applicant and all other parties who submitted relevant representations within the time limit set out in the regulations, together with details of the right of appeal. Please could parties other than the members, the legal adviser and the democratic services officer now leave the virtual meeting? And can I thank you all for your attendance and input into the meeting, thank you. Thank you, Chair. And the webcast is gone, this is it. (sighs)

Transcript