Transcript
Can I just welcome Councillor BELL today and take this opportunity for you to introduce
yourself for the panel to introduce themselves as we do have some new members. So if you would
like to go first, Councillor BELL. Thank you. So my name is Councillor Jeannie Bell for those
that you haven't met before and I've been the Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner since January 23,
I'm forgetting the year that I am. And so this is my reappointment hearing today. Thank you.
I'm Councillor Barbra Murray from Liverpool Authority at Anne showing today's.
Good morning. I'm Councillor Shelly Powell, elected member for Hale Wood North at Nosely Council.
I'm Councillor Tricia Longston, Taliesborough Councillor representing Moss Bank Ward.
Good morning, Jeannie. My name is Councillor Tony Murphy. I'm representing Rock Valley Board
on Borough Council. Sorry, Councillor Long, you're just saying you might be aware of the Council.
So I'm going to Councillor Tony Murphy, Rock Valley Council, the 4th and Borough
Council. Councillor Muxby, the 4th and Borough Council for Halek and Malls Ward.
Councillor Dominic McNell from Manaward in Sefton. Councillor Sam Heine from Molinew
Ward in Sefton. Councillor Joanne Kennedy from Samfield Park
Ward in Liverpool. Councillor Lawrence Odorchek of Waver tree
village ward City of Liverpool. Brian Taddio, independent member.
I should have said, Councillor Barbra Murray from Utre Ward in Liverpool. Everybody else
very well done. You did that. Lovely. Thank you. We were about to do quite a few questions,
Jeannie. I think every member is going to ask one. So just take your time. If you need
us to repeat the questions, please do so. Good luck. Brian, do you want to give the
first question, please? Good morning. Could you please give us a summary of the responsibilities
and functions you were asked to carry out in the previous time as their deputy PCC.
Thank you. So over the last year, my primary role has been to support the Police and Crime
Commissioner, Emily Sporell, with the delivery of her Police and Crime Plan and part of that
is working on scrutiny to help the Chief Constable Serena Kennedy to account in terms
of the performance of the police. I've also been involved in several pieces of work and
led on the Women's Services Alliance, the Re-launched Modern Slavery Network. I've worked on neurodiversity
in the criminal justice system, so looking at how we manage custody settings, raising
awareness of neurodiversity and how it can impact people at the point of arrest, but
also within the workplace as well, so working with staff networks, so the police have a
neurodiversity staff network that I attend. I've also been doing some work with Ian Byrne,
MP and a PhD student called Jack Fitzpatrick, who is looking at neurodiversity, he's working
with the police, so we've been looking together at things that could come forward at parliamentary
level to support that. I've trained the independent custody visitors on what to look for in a
custody setting and then to be able to check that that is actually working. Also worked
quite a lot on the addictions portfolio, so we've been looking at the Combatting Drugs
Partnership, which is one aspect of it, so for those of you that may not know, I'm sure
most of you do, especially those of you who are elected members. Each of the boroughs has
a Combatting Drugs Partnership, which involves public health and community safety and lots
of other partners. My role on behalf of the Police and Crime Commissioner has been to
convene that at a Merseyside level, so we look at pulling all of the Merseyside figures
together, looking at the performance, scrutinising the performance of each CDP and then feeding
that upwards, so that's enabled me to work at a national level as well on the national
addictions portfolio with the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners, and that's
led by two other Police and Crime Commissioners, so I've been working with them. That's been
fascinating, I've absolutely loved that piece of work and it's something that I feel really
passionate about. I'm hopefully going to be moving that gambling side of that portfolio much further
this year. You will have seen Emily recently go to speech at the Beacon Trust annual gambling
conference, so we know that's going to be a key focus going forward. Then a lot of the work has
been around deputising for the Police and Crime Commissioner, so that could be at public meetings,
meeting with residents, going to official events, but also attending at kind of every
level of meetings to make sure that I'm fully briefed, so whether that's regional meetings,
whether it's the Merseyside Criminal Justice Board, or whether it's local meetings, I've kind
of embedded myself as much as I possibly can in those, so that if Emily needs me to support,
I've got that background knowledge and understanding and I can do so in the most effective way possible.
I hope that covers it and I'm not rambled too. That's a good start,
which is a sort of a supplementary question, which roles can you not,
which Commissioner or can't you function, can't you do at the Deputy PCC?
So there are certain things that I can't do, so it is Emily that decides the Police and Crime
Plan and the priorities within that, and that's something that I might support with Emily and
discuss through with Emily, but ultimately that is Emily's role. Then there are other statutory
functions around finance and disciplinary that I can't do as a Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner,
because it wouldn't be appropriate because I'm not elected into that role and that's what Emily's
elected today. That's good, thank you. Thank you.
Joanna, question two please. Hi, as you're aware, one of the key responsibilities of the Deputy
Police and Crime Commissioner's role is to assist in the development and delivery of the Police and
Crime Plan for Maisie Sides. Having been elected for a second term, she'll be obliged to have a new
plan in place within the next year. Can you give an example from your previous term of office of
how you have supported the Commissioner to deliver the current plan and how do you intend to support
the Commissioner in the development of your new plan?
So I've been involved in every area of work, really not just the work that I've been leading on in
terms of the Police and Crime Plan, but also things that I'm not leading on, but I've got an interest
in, so like hate crime and equalities. So I've tried to go to as many kind of events I've helped
with the Hate Crime Ambassador training. So in terms of the previous Police and Crime Plan,
I have been involved in the work that was already taking place. And then in terms of developing the
new plan going forward, I was really, really proud to see that Emily had included neurodiversity
specifically, as that's something that I'm quite passionate about. It's something that I've
worked in in a professional capacity and from an academic perspective, I'm from a personal
perspective, so I was really pleased to see that Emily is, you know, that was in her manifesto
commitments to something that she would take forward. And then when Emily is developing her
Police and Crime Plan, I will be able to consult on that, and I know that she will take on board
the suggestions that I'm making, because we've got a really good close work in relationship where
she values the experience that I've got and allows me to run with some of the things that
I'm really passionate about whilst making sure that she has oversight of all the back, because
obviously it's in her name. So yeah, that's how hopefully I will take it forward. I think
things that I specifically see developing from my perspective is the Women's Services Alliance,
so we've only just relaunched that. And that's quite a big piece of work, and we've had two meetings
so far. And we know from the most psych criminal justice board, some of the figures that we've
got coming through around this proportionality in the criminal justice system, and the kind of
barriers that women face that are quite specific, especially around rehabilitation and moving
forward when they come out of prison. And that's a piece of work that I really kind of want to
get hands-on with, which hopefully I will do as the chair of the Women's Services Alliance.
Please, supplementary, John. No, thank you. Question three, Sam, please.
And a key aspect of this role is to ensure that the views of the Police and Crime Commissioner
are communicated effectively, particularly to when liaising with local representatives
and partners on Merseyside. So can you give me an example of where you've done this,
and in particular, who were the stakeholders, what were the challenges and opportunities,
and how did you go about addressing those and initially identifying those challenges?
That's a really interesting question, actually, because we've come across this quite a lot.
So I think one of the things I always found really frustrating, especially during the election
period, is people saying, you know, we don't know what the Police and Crime Commissioner does,
and you hear that from certain people. But actually, when you go on the website, there is a raft of
information. The social media comms going out all of the time showcasing what Emily is doing,
what the Police and Crime Plan is. But we do appreciate that that message isn't still fully
getting across. So that's something that we're going to look at this term going forward in,
is how we're communicating, not just to the professionals that we work with, because I think
that's well embedded, but actually how are we communicating it with the general public so they
can see that there is a value for money aspect, and that actually Emily is generating quite a
substantial amount of income in terms of tackling crime in local communities. So how do we make
sure that's effective? So in terms of an example, I suppose probably best example is the modern
slavery network. So when we launched that, it was my job to help set that up, to get the right
partners around the table, to get buy-in and engagement, but also to make sure that it hit the
needs of Emily's Police and Crime Plan. So it feeds into the violence against women and girls
document, but also we know that modern slavery goes much wider than that, and it impacts right
across society, and men obviously are a part of that as well. So I think one of Emily's focus
areas was how is it impacting young people? And that was quite a tricky conversation to have with
a lot of partners, because the image of modern slavery is that it mainly happens, people are
trafficked into this country, and one of the things that Emily was quite keen to look at was, okay,
well, cuckooing, although in its own right is an issue, it is actually a form of modern slavery,
but also county lines, and this is where it became a little bit tricky, because county lines is
it's kind of a crime group in its own, tends to involve young people who are taking drugs,
could be within the area or out of the area, and Emily very much wanted that to form part of our
modern slavery network plan going forward. So we had a lot of discussions with partners who
were sat around that table, we had about 15, 50 different partners, it's been really successful,
and having that conversation of, you know, we want this to be on the agenda, and we talked it through,
we had, so a key part of that team that we've got together is two police officers, one from the
modern slavery team, and one who deals with county lines, and they came to talk about the two different
roles, but how they intersect, so that everybody could understand that there was an intersection
between the two, and we talked to survivors, we have the third sector on there, but not necessarily
third sector groups that represent young people that are involved in county lines, so it was
bringing them on board as well, and we did that, and we managed to do it really successfully in the
end, and it was a long process, so we've had like 12 months of setting the modern slavery
network up, getting the targets together, making sure we were measurable, and we managed to get
county lines into that as one of our target areas, which, you know, really proud of, but more than
that, it's not just a line and a document, we got full buy-in from that, so all of the partners
bought into that, and we actually had a victim who spoke at the launch of the strategy, who'd
been a victim of county lines, and talk about his experience and how, and I think it's one of
the difficulty with county lines at the time when he was a young teenager, he didn't see that,
he was like, he was willingly engaging it, he didn't see that he'd been groomed into that lifestyle,
and that it had a profound effect on him, that he'd been targeted specifically because of his needs,
so, and it crosses into neurodiversity and addiction, and so it's been a really successful
piece of work, and I think that was very much me making sure that Emily's priorities were heard,
were reflected, and were discussed, but also bringing people along with that journey so that
they understood why it was important too. Thank you, Juni. Okay, very good, very full answer, thank you.
Question five, Dominic, please. Yes, morning, slightly different subject, but as deputy police
and crime commissioner, you're expected to work with the commissioner to hold a cheap
constable to account. How did you fulfill this element to the role in your previous term of
office and last trial, and so if you've got any examples of that? So I actually kind of jumped
straight into the deep end of this, I think I was only about a month into office when I
chaired the first full screwing meeting myself, and we didn't have the independent screwing
here at the time, so it was literally just me and the chief constable on the top team,
and it's about if you've ever watched it online, I really recommend that you do, because it is
really insightful. It was about a three-hour meeting where I had to kind of digest, dig into it all,
and then provide challenge and feedback, but also support, and I think one of the things that we
sometimes forget about scrutiny is that, yes, it is about making sure that the functions are being
upheld, that things are working, suggesting improvements, and holding people to account,
but a big part of it as well is about highlighting good practice, because actually it's a lot of good
practice, and the public don't always see that, so the way that I do scrutiny is I like to do the
challenge, but I also like to draw out the good practice and make it a balance of, you know,
you are doing this fantastically, but actually, let's have a little look at this bit, where you're
not performing quite as we need to. Some of that has been around, and some we did some challenge
around the call waiting times, for 999 and 101, what I wanted to make sure that I fully understood
what was happening, so we went for a visit to the emergency call centre, so that we could spend a
few hours with the staff, looking at how the calls are managed, how they're prioritised,
was able to sit in and listen to a few of the calls to see how they were dealt with,
that gave me a really good understanding when it came to scrutiny of how I could then challenge
the chief constable on how to improve those call waiting times, and that's important as well, so,
you know, they'll say, you know, swan it around and looking at, you know, horses or looking at
different areas of police, but actually, this is really vital, it's vital that we understand
what's happening at the ground level, so that we can then scrutinise effectively at the highest
level of policing. Thank you.
You might have noticed, Jeanne, these are the professional competence questions, because
there are two types of those and their personal independence, and Trisha's going to ask question
six, which is the last of the professional competence. Thanks, Chair. As Deputy Police and Crime
Commissioner, you're required to support the Police and Crime Commissioner in ensuring that
community needs are understood and being taken into account. Can you provide an example of how
you have translated these needs into tangible actions and outcomes, and secondly, how you've
dealt with any barriers or blockages? Okay, that's a hefty question, so if I get, if I miss
anything, please tell me that I've missed it and I'll come back to it. So, in terms of engaging
with community leaders, if we're talking elected members, I have tried to get out and meet as many
elected members as I've been able to, whether that's at community walkabouts, whether it's
at the hate crime training, I've attended meetings with Council leaders, and any ward
Councillors, the offer is out there to meet with me and sit and have a chat, and I've done that
quite a few times this year. Some of that has been in terms of issues that they're facing in their
own ward. I recently had a meeting with one of our Council leaders who was taking forward a motion
to their Council around the treatment of women in politics and the barriers that women in politics
face in terms of online targeting, abuse and harassment, and I went out to visit that Council
leader, and we chatted that through and looked at how I could support that, which I did wholeheartedly,
and because Emily does, you know, it's a real passion of Emily, so of course we would support that.
So, I suppose in terms of specific examples, Emily will deal with a lot of the high level
relationship building, because that's what she is elected to do, and I will do some of the kind of
more informal low level relationship building, and I know I've seen many of you out in the
community around and about. Sorry, if I've missed anything, please let me know, or I was trying to
scribble notes, but I don't know if I've talked them properly. No, you've answered nearly all of it.
The last part is how you've dealt with any barriers or blockages in terms of ensuring that community
needs are understood and taken into account.
Yeah, so I think that there are lots of barriers for different groups within the community,
and some of that is just by being a politician, can be a barrier, or seen as a political figure,
can be a barrier, and it's always quite a unique role, I think, for the Police and Crime Commissioner,
and for myself as Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner, because we are seen as being politically
affiliated, and that can be a barrier to engaging with politicians who are perhaps from different
parties. What I've tried to do, and what I have done, is make sure that I will deal with any
politician from any party in exactly the same way as I would at politician in my own party,
and I have done that this year, so I had an opposition councillor who came to me with issues
around crime and social behaviour in their ward. We organised a walkabout, Emily went along,
the MP went down, we looked at what could be improved in their local area, and I had some
lovely feedback, and I wouldn't expect them to, you know, publicly say, well, a Labour,
definitely some crime commissioner did that, but it was a nice working relationship,
and I deep pride myself on the fact that I tried to have good working relationships with
every single councillor, regardless of their political affiliation, because at the end of the day,
none of us would do the job of a local councillor if we weren't passionate about our communities,
and regardless of the colour that we stand under, we all want the best for our communities. We might
have different views about how that can happen, but actually we all do, and it's a common ground
that we have. I work at a national level with the local government association, on the safest,
stronger community board, that is a cross-party board that represents local government,
I work really closely with my conservative lead, my liberal democrat lead, and my independent lead,
and the four of us work brilliantly together again, because even at that national level,
we all want the best for our communities, so that's an example, but there are other examples
around how to reach communities, and that's just about pushing forward and making those
connections and trying to engage in the neurodiverse community, being a big part of that,
there often is a fear of figures of authority, so you have to be a little bit vulnerable when you
open yourself up to people and say well actually, I am a safe person to talk to, and I'm a safe
person because I know what you're going through, and I will keep your confidentiality and I will
give you respect, and I've worked with lots of neurodiverse officers who've come to me for
support and advice, I've worked with lots of neurodiverse members of the community for the same.
Yeah, thank you. I think you've covered it all. Tony, your question, please.
Oh, thank you, Anthony. First of all, I'm glad some of the issues around personal independence
have demonstrated by, for example, the political aspect that you've had the party, political aspect,
and so on, and I was just wondering about the, I think someone who's raised critical friend,
I mean, are the times when you've been able to say, I'm going to say to differ with, with Emily,
and kind of come to a compromise about certain things, and perhaps if you give us an example of how
of that? Oh, you're asking me to say that I fell out with my bar?
So, yeah, Emily, so I very much see myself, and I think Emily does as a critical friend,
and I think that was why I was first appointed to the role, because I am quite confident and vocal
and given my opinions. I'm not shy about coming forward, and there have been things that we've
not, I wouldn't say that we've been disagreed on, but that we've talked through. So, you know, Emily
has to be okay, well, tell me why, you know, why do you think that, because that's different to
how I think, and we'll talk it through together. And yeah, there are times when we will agree to
disagree, but I actually think that's healthy, but ultimately Emily is the police and crime
commissioner. So, you know, she has that final say on how things move forward, but I feel comfortable
that I am listened to, and that I'm heard even if, you know, it's not always taken forward. I do
feel confident that I'm listened to, and I'm heard, and I probably wouldn't be in the role if I wasn't
for those that have come across me in other capacities. Can be quite stubborn.
Thanks, Jim. The next question is Max, please. Thank you.
Thank you, Chair. Morning, Councillor Bell. My question is so that your role as deputy PCC,
you have delegated authority for day-to-day problem-solving decisions for various
work streams and policies. How would you ensure the transparency of your personal decision-making
process over the next 12 months? So, all decisions, all key decisions are reported on the website
for the police and crime commissioner's website. So, all key decisions go through that, and you'll
be able to see whether I've signed that or what Emily has signed it. I haven't had to do very much
of that until recently when Emily has taken a bit of leave from eternity, and I've done some of that.
This forum is how you will hold me to account on the decisions that I've made,
and you will provide that challenge to me of, or why have you taken that direction and why have you
made that decision to include that or not include that. I'm always willing to attend community meetings,
always willing to engage with the public and happy for the challenge, because I think
the minute you think you know everything, it's that moment when you really don't.
And you'll be pleased to know the last question, I think, as long as? No? Oh, there's one more
after that, sorry. There are two more questions. As usual, I'm causing a lot of confusion.
Lauren, so you're ready with your question? Hi, thank you. Given the independence required
of this role, what examples can you give of how you have had to be personally
accountable for the delivery of a particular piece of work?
So the best example of that is definitely the combatting drugs partnership. So that is closely
monitored at a national level, because there's a lot of public money involved, so that has to
be reported into a national level as to what we're doing, how we're doing it, why have we made
the decision to run it the way that we do, because different areas are running it slightly differently.
So the tiered approach that we have where we have the local CDPs feeding into the meeting that I chair,
which is the regional level, and then moving up, that's not adopted by everybody. So we were asked
at a national level to kind of talk that through and explain why we chose to do it that way,
and actually it was held up as an example of good practice, and the reason that I chose to do it
that way was because I think because I come from a local authority background, I know the burdens
that are placed on local authorities, and for me to attend every combatting drugs partnership
would have been burdensome for them, because there would have been having to provide additional
papers for every partner to then be invited to the regional combatting drugs partnership,
it would have been an additional layer of meetings that actually officers just at the moment in local
government, it's hard to function as it is, but to then expect them to be come into regional meetings,
all of them, it would have just been so cumbersome, and what we find that working with just the
DPH, so the Director of Public Health at a regional level, has streamlined that process,
but still enabled us to get the right amount of information, to have the right oversight,
and to be able to challenge and monitor any standards that are not falling. That then feeds
up higher into that kind of the next level, which is what Emily chose, and that then, which is the
Community Justice Board, and then they have the opportunity from a wider partnership perspective
to ask questions about combatting drugs partnership at a regional level to look at what they're doing,
so there are several layers of accountability. I made the decision to set up the CDP that way,
I felt that it was the right thing to do, and it was agreed that it was a model of good practice,
and I'm really proud of that piece of work.
Happy with that, Ansel Lawrence.
No, no more questions. Sorry.
Thank you.
And the last question today for you is from Councillor Pound Shelley.
Thanks Barbara. Jeannie, given your continued position as an elected member in St.
Telling's Board of Council, were there any conflicts of interest during your previous term
of office as Deputy Commissioner, and if there have been any, how were these managed?
So this is something I'm really conscious about. So when I took on the role as Deputy
Police and Crown Commission, I immediately stepped down as cabinet member for community safety,
because obviously there's a direct conflict of interest, but I also declined the offer to stay
as a cabinet member in another role that didn't link to the PCC's office, and the reason that
I did that is because I believe at a cabinet level the work that Emily does will touch every area,
so whether that's adult health and social care, whether you're looking at environment,
where you've got, you know, street safety, street scene safety, even things like licensing,
I love licensing, it's one of the areas that I absolutely adore. But, you know, licensing will
conflict with the work that happens in the PCC office, so I immediately removed myself from
cabinet for that reason to make sure that there was no conflict of interest. There have been some,
I wouldn't say issues, but there have been things that have been caught up when there's been votes.
So, for example, when you vote in on the pre-sapting council, because I work for the Police and Crown
Commission and the Police and Crown Commission is that's the pre-sapt, I have to make sure that
my monitoring officer is aware of that declaration of interest, and then I will not vote in that vote,
because it wouldn't be appropriate. I always think the advice of my monitoring officer at my local
authority to make sure that those boundaries are cleared. There have been a couple of other things
where I've had local councillors in my area who've come to me, and they've emailed me on my
councilor email about PCC work, and I've had to go back to them and say, I don't want to sound
awkward, but you need to send this through the Police and Crown Commission email,
because
there needs to be a level of transparency of where that communication is happening,
and how it's happening. So, I'm very, very clear on the boundaries. I wouldn't say it's caused any
major issues at all, I think, because I'm very aware of where the issues can arise and protect
myself as well as other people. Thank you very much. I thought that was a good answer. Thank you,
Juni. That was the last question. Thank you for the questions and the responses today. This concludes
the lines of questioning, but I would like to offer you, Juni, the opportunity to ask us for any
questions or anything you need, clarify. Thank you. I suppose the only thing I would want to add
is that it's been an absolute privilege to do this role since last year. I have learned an awful
lot. Sometimes it has been a baptism by fire, and I've had to think I'm laughing pretty quickly,
but I would say it's one of the most rewarding roles that I've ever done, and yeah, thank you very
much for all of your questions today. It's been a nice opportunity to talk about the things that
I've done. Thank you. Thanks, Chair. You'll have seen that the agenda's in two parts.
So, this is the public part where the questions have been asked in public, and shortly the members
will move the appropriate resolution and exclude yourself and anyone in the public
gallery from the meeting, and they'll go into private session to deliberate on their findings.
The members are aware of their obligation to submit a report within 21 days, but
they are also conscious of the need to respond at the earliest opportunity in relation to this.
You won't be expected to stay to hear the outcome, but that outcome will be communicated at the
earliest opportunity, if that is okay. Thank you. If there are no fair questions, can I thank
Councillor Bell for participating in the confirmation hearing? You are now free to leave this meeting.
As I have no items of urgent nature, I intend to move shortly to part two of the agenda.
To do so, can I ask members to support me in moving the appropriate resolution
to exclude press and public? Is that agreed? Thank you, everybody.