Transcript

OK, a very good afternoon to you all. Excellent turnout, so thank you very much indeed for all your attendance. Welcome to the June meeting of the Environment Overview and Scrutiny Committee. I am Councillor Ian Selby, Chairman of this committee. Please do ensure that your mobile phones are turned off or switched to silent. I have not been notified of fire alarm practice but should the alarm sound can we please move swiftly to the closest exit and make your way outside to the front of the building on the green outside located on St Peter's Hill. If you wish to ask a question or make a comment please can I request that you indicate by raising your hand. This meeting will be recorded and is recorded at this moment and also watch live stream or later via the public web website. We will now begin to work our way through the agenda. First of all though I would like to give a warm welcome to Louise Case, a new member to our Environment team. Louise, a very warm welcome here and I hope you enjoy the meeting. OK, the next thing I need to decide, ask is, and it's not a problem whatsoever, as my Vice-Chairman sent her apologies so Emma is not with us today. So I am quite happy to chair the meeting with the support of my officer. However, I am aware that the committee members here today, there is one of us, Councillor Paul Martin, have you never chaired or vice-chaired a meeting before? Would you like the opportunity if I proposed you to be my Vice-Chairman for today? I just think it would have been really nice to have someone who has never had the opportunity. I'll propose Paul. Tim, all those in favour? Thank you. Paul, come on to your seat. Keep the company. We'll just give Paul a moment. Paul, there's a gentleman called Paul. Public Speaker, we've got one question today haven't we? Would you like to come and take a position with the Public Speakers? [No response.] Okay. The first item on the agenda today is public speaking and I believe we have just one Public Speaker today, Peter Bell. Peter, would you like to ask your question please? Good afternoon everybody. I last attended this committee some months ago and the question is regarding the agenda item 8, the animal welfare policy which is on the agenda before you. You'll see in your supplementary papers some submissions I've made to the council about the current draft of the policy and I'd just like to draw your attention to page

1. In particular, obviously I'd ask you if you haven't already read through those submissions. The area I'm looking at is the bit in the policy which refers to people with previous convictions and I've asked you to consider when you're looking at this policy comparison with similar businesses and I put that on page 8 and section on similar businesses. Just to think about when you're considering this policy is whether the council would include similar restrictions and similar reporting requirements on any other business that the council was required to authorise and I've set those out on page 8 so I'm just asking you when you're looking at this item to have in mind whether you would treat somebody applying to run a business which needs a licence for that business in the same way and remember that this is for animal welfare so any additional requirements you're putting in here need to be focused on animal welfare and so that's really just my question is would you assure me that you will look at those submissions, particularly on that aspect of licensing? Peter, thank you very much indeed for taking the time to come along and for your submissions as well. I'm not an expert on licensing, it's quite a topic, it really is, so I take my advice from our council officers that have the experience and so I'm going to ask for a response. Heather, would you like to reply to the question please? I'm more than happy to reply to the question or the response to the supplementary documents, however you'd like me to progress. Good question Heather, we've got a reply written out, would you like to just take some aspects from it and as you feel best... Yep, no problem. So in response to the supplementary pack that you've received and primarily the... Sorry, is your microphone on Heather? Yeah, sorry, do you want me to move over? Is that any better? No problem. So in response to the supplementary pack that Mr Bell has provided or has been sent out of Mr Bell's responses, naturally the typos and any wording inconsistencies or omitted words to aid reading will naturally be updated and I thank Mr Bell for pointing all of them out. The corporate objectives have been updated and now is the corporate plan so of course we'll amend that. The enforcement policy is on our website, we don't include a link within the policy to avoid links changing as it does happen and then in becoming ineffectual so we won't be, I wouldn't propose to include that. The consultation with our legal advisors, that was actually legal advice after the public consultation so we haven't included them within the document. And the title of the primates legislation, it was 2003 and I do accept that since the document was produced it was updated to 2024 so yeah, that can be amended too. There is a comment about fettering our discretion by saying not normally but it would be said that we've never said that we will not so we're not fettering our discretion by saying not normally. We'll also comment that the policy needs to be read in its entirety rather than individual sections. There was a question about appointing a vet. SKDC appoint the vet and per the fees we're able to recharge the fees because under section 13 of the animal regulations it says that we may charge such fees as it's considered appropriate hence why the policy states that we'll reclaim the vet fees because we feel that's appropriate. Offering an independent vet overcomes any impartiality issues especially for horse riding establishments and there is a list, they're referred to as the vet list and that's a list held by the Royal College of Vet and Resurgence and it's a list of approved inspectors. There are a couple of other bits with regard to one, when the policy was initially drafted and consulted upon there was some effectively granddad rights to inspectors if they'd got a certain amount of experience but that expired in October 2023 so of course that can come out now and the aim of defining relevant convictions was to point towards the type of convictions in the policy. The other comment we'd make is that the policy is a local document, it's not meant to be a recital of the relevant legislation or regulations therefore where there is no material difference we're not proposing to make any changes like one of them is under the star rating there is a comment that it should say we've put rating rather than star rating. Well it's under the section 10 which clearly says it's duration of a license and star rating so we feel that that is adequate. With regard to like liable for a fine or to a fine per the legislation as I say it's not verbatim so we still don't think that's an issue and with regard to tribunals they're specialist courts so it's not an issue we don't believe that it's saying that using the word courts. With regard to the legal advice so we did take legal advice on the policy following the 13th of February environment overview and scrutiny committee and it did include Mr Bell's feedback. We're not wishing to enter into discussions regarding the reference to the Crime and Disorder Act, the Care Act and the Children's Act. Our legal advice has confirmed that they are correctly referred to as local authority or licensing authorities do have a duty to consider these so that's why they're included. There's also comment that in 2.3 that the it's that about when's when's be unreasonableness we don't believe that it's so bizarre as to be unreasonable and no other authority would have included it as can be seen if you look at other policies from other districts throughout the country they do include the same thing. The fit and proper definition is not defined in legislation which is why SKDC has stated why how it will interpret fit and proper so that there's no confusion and having other viewed other authorities definitions and their context we do believe it's in order. The data barring service reference we don't ask for anything like that in our policy so we've not considered that aspect any further. We can amend the provision regarding refused licenses but the provision clearly states the legislation that it applies to and that's in 13.5 of the critique. With regard to the Equality Impact Assessment it has been taken in line with the authority procedure whilst Mr Bell raises concerns regarding indirect sex discrimination it aims are legitimate the issue that potentially males are more likely than females to have criminal convictions there is no less discriminatory way of overcoming this as a provision within the policy and it equally applies to males and females so it's not believed that we are breaking the law in relation to that. And whilst the efforts of Mr Bell and his legal advisors have that they both that they've all gone to to critique the policy are appreciated there is this is a local policy with other policies within the and it does match other policies within the county and wider. If Mr Bell feels that there needs to be specific wording within such a policy may we're not wanting to be facetious but maybe we could suggest that he lobbies government to produce a national document rather than all the individual separate depth of guidance depending on the type of license that the person's applying for. And going forward the policy has been drafted and along with previous feedback has been subject to legal review by Legal Services Lincolnshire. We believe that with some of the minor amendments that have been outlined that this document is fit for purpose however as a committee you may want to consider that there is no statutory requirement for a local authority to adopt an animal welfare policy. We currently issue animal licenses we believe without issue and if committee feels unable to recommend the report to cabinet or the policy sorry to cabinet and approve it for their approval it could be withdrawn and not progressed further if that's how committee would like to progress. Thank you. Heather thank you very much indeed for a comprehensive reply to that question. I appreciate there's been a lot of work a lot of research going in to respond to Mr Bell. Mr Bell would you like a supplementary question? You're most welcome to one if you would. So just a couple of points arising from that I've done work elsewhere on other council policies for example public spaces protection orders and I found errors which have been duplicated across councils because they copy each other's policies and I'm sure that some of this policy was extracted from other councils policies just because other councils do it doesn't make it right and I haven't had legal advisors I am seeking legal advice from several criminal justice charities who have referred to their policy teams including copies of the policies from three other authorities which have got similar things in them. What I have looked at is the case law. I think there have been five cases decided at first tier tribunal where the judges have either accepted or rejected and if you look at the criteria the judges have set out as to why they would accept where a license has been refused why somebody would be able to overturn it is clearly set out in the case law and I would really just ask that the council looks at that and learns from those so that the policy isn't discriminatory because I say if you look at other businesses you wouldn't have put these restrictions in so why an animal licensing animal welfare policy has got these restrictions in I just don't understand what the legal basis for that is. Thank you. Okay Peter thank you very much indeed just to say with regarding that I think you've done us a good deed by raising some of the issues you have certainly given our officers some food for thought I think is probably the best way to put it but as Heather Green has stated there is no statutory requirement for a local authority to adopt an animal welfare policy and this could be withdrawn if our cabinet chooses to do so. But Peter thank you very much indeed did you want to say any further on that Heather are you happy with that? No fine thank you Heather thank you kindly and thank you for coming along Peter. I believe there's no other public questions today so we'll move on to the next item on the agenda which is apologies for absence and obviously the main one is Councillor Emma Baker my first chair vice chairman are there any others please? Thank you chairman yeah Councillor Emma Baker as you say there's also Councillor Steve Cunningham who substituted today by Councillor Tim Harrison. Thank you chairman. Okay thank you very much does agenda item number three disclosure of interests members are asked to disclose any interest in matters of consideration for today's meeting is there anything that any members wish to declare or you can do so during the meeting if there's anything you feel that you've come across that say you want to want to mention all members okay with that not many nods can have a nod all right okay okay all right we'll move on to agenda item four minutes of the joint meeting of the environmental overview and scrutiny committee and rural communities over the unscrewing committee held on the 18th of March 2024 do I have a proposer for those minutes are you happy with them as a as a correct record anybody Tim yeah thank you kindly okay there's a seconder do we have a seconder don't all shout at once no well I was I was there so um okay I'll I'll second it then it was all those in favour three all those against any abstentions so one two three four abstentions none against but Barry what was the abstention they can you can abstain your microphone on please hours sorry mr chairman what actually is the committee of the 18th of March it looks like I was I was substituting for somebody for this Mr Turner I believe Councillor Turner so you can support okay there's four four votes for them is it okay I'll take the votes get all those in favour apologies wrecking the place now all those all those against it's not against and those abstentions I believe there's four okay okay thank you right next item is the updates no sorry minutes of them from the meeting held on the 19th of March that was the following day remember it being a busy week so do I have a proposer for those minutes please thank you Councillor Tim Harrison a seconder Harish thank you kindly all those in favour of those minutes one two three four six all those against abstentions thank you mark and Barry so that was six six votes for two against and abstentions not again sorry yeah not against two abstentions okay right all good so far don't hold your breath updates from the updates from the previous meeting yes I think that's on page 27 of the agenda agenda item six and that's there's just one item on there and that was was complete is there any comments on that or we'll move that was happy good right all happy so far agenda item number seven announcements or updates from the leader of the council cabinet members or head of paid service none that I'm aware of actually any no no announcements going very well so far famous last words okay we'll move on to the animal welfare policy agenda item number eight I've just got to introduce it first Paul clarify the thing that Mr Bell mentioned what are we calling it because I know Mr Bell pointed out it says animal welfare policy then it's the animal licensing well on the agenda pool it says well all can say Paul is on the agenda it says animal welfare policy I can already read out what's in front of me does it okay well that's that's a good question well well fair enough absolutely fair enough question Heather would you like to introduce this item please yeah just to answer the question it will be the animal welfare policy that is one of the typos that I did say or alterations that I did say would be corrected yeah okay so this is the animal welfare policy and the policy covers the licensable activity of animal welfare setting out the principles the council will use with dealing with animal related matters currently the policy issues animal welfare licenses in accordance with the regulations but it does not have a policy for providing a framework to support this as we've previously mentioned and is in the report there is no statutory requirement to have such a policy it was felt to be a nice thing a good thing to have the purpose of animal licensing is to protect animals and to prefer and to ensure their well-being as well as protecting both the public and those using licensed facilities within the terms of the relevant acts and the legislative legislative guidance the policy provides a framework for officers members and the public and enables consistent decision-making and transparency during the initial presentation there was the public speaker Mr Bell and he raised various concerns and we did receive legal advice in relation to that so if you've got any further queries please ask or questions please ask okay thank you very much Heather for the introduction I'll ask if there's any any questions in relation to the the the policy that we have here in front of us today and any any further questions Councillor Wood any more no Councillor Whittington any questions Gloria Barry Councillor Barry Dobson thank you chairman yeah I'd just like to ask whether we know can you give us an idea of how many animal you know cases that would be important to this particular item on the agenda here in in SKDC would they be you know we don't do we have zoos do we you know what what is it that we're actually writing this for okay thank you Barry I appreciate you doing the committee and a warm welcome to the committee as well Heather would you like to give us a little bit yeah we have no zoos within our area so that's we have 74 in truth I don't know the exact number but we do have a register but my last count I believe which was probably about a month ago was about 74 75 licenses animal welfare licenses but it covers various descriptions so there is the as the policy does refer to there's the animal boarding establishments the horse riding establishments pet shops dangerous wild animals dog breeding keeping or training animals for exhibition and zoo licenses that help any further questions mark yeah thanks so it's a follow-up to what Heather's just said so if you weren't because you've seen them quite often these days people setting up dog walking services or dog grooming services or things like that do they have to have a do they have to have a license as well because they are sort of working closely with animals thank you Heather dog walking and dog grooming are not licensable activities so no they don't have to have a license we don't license them okay howish question just a question coming to the questions for a dog walking how it's going to speak into the microphone please the dog walking I've seen in south this is recently seems to be quite a lot of dog walkers have about six or seven dogs on each hands and these dogs are pulling and straining and I feel some of these dogs because some of the big some are small they are sort of choking in it so I think there must be some kind of regulation so how many dogs a walker can can take to a walk at any one time so we I feel some of the rights of the smaller dogs are being infringed by the bigger dogs you know I just wonder is there some kinds of regulations for that do you want me to respond yeah no there's there may be regulations but it's not something that we license so I'm not involved with it so I honestly couldn't tell you but no it's not a licenseable activity that this council has to license so I can't really comment any further sorry to set up mr chairman just as a dog walker sounds like it depends on how many leads you've got and how strong your arms are can I come back here please we are not therefore safe I mean animal welfare and that we are licensing people or we say this is the things that should be licenseable because here we are not safeguarding the welfare of the animal are we it's not controlled it's not licensed you know anybody can set up they can do any sort of cruelty because their owner is somewhere else somebody else is walking the dogs so I find this big anomaly here we are trying to discuss something for the welfare of the dog or the animals and yet we've got no control over it so you're saying there should be limits on them basically I believe a councilor respect cabinet member I think there's a scoping issue here but we're not saying that these animals have no rights any animal that had their rights infringed any cruelty that was done to the animal would be a complaint that could be raised to the police what is simply being raised here is that there is a series of actions that are licenseable there are series of actions that are not licenseable based on government regulations that supersede anything that this council makes a decision on so we are doing our due diligence and our best care for the things that we are responsible for but it would be inappropriate to try and go anything further from that if people are concerned about the welfare for animals there are a number of phone lines that they can call but they can't get into contact with the police on 101 okay how's how's business in council how's business you wanna come back oh look come on my biggest concern is mr chairman we have got in our own in stanford we've got the meadows and we got put everywhere keep your dogs on leads yeah and these people as soon as they enter the meadow areas you just let go the leads and the dogs just run around and just do their business wherever it is the thing that i'm worried is about toxic era because during a summer day and all that other families the children they're playing on on that grass on that piece of land where probably dog there may be toxic current germs that really can cause blindness in children you know so these things is when you say it is keep your dogs on leads and you know you don't let them and clean up after you people don't adhere to that so this is must be regulated we are putting dog warden i suppose yeah yes we yeah absolutely i usually would you like to respond to that i think yeah that um would come under the public space protection orders that we're going through um not it was going to go to june cabinet but it'll be july cabinet so there's a public space protection order proposed to have dogs on leads um and there's also a dog file in pspo also so that's where officers um so the dogs on leads is where it's um instructed by an authorized officer and then you've got the dog filing one which is where an officer or we get evidence to to of dog fouling and we can take enforcement action on that so that's just dog walkers in general not necessarily businesses does that answer your question harish i think but still worried about okay um are there any other questions on this although we've got two recommendations here in front of us okay the first one is to put one provides a recommendation to cabinet for approval of the updated southke steven council animal welfare policies we know this this has been to license and it's come from licensing we've debated it before and uh to approve the recommendations cabinet that the deputy chief executive in consultation with the cabinet member for corporate governance and licensing be delegated to make minor amendments to the policy such as legislative updates which may become necessary from time to time to ensure its continued accuracy but do not affect its direction or intent um i'll propose those from the chair do i have a second barry thank you um any further debate on that no okay all those in favor that's that's unanimous thank you very much indeed right moving on to agenda item number nine i believe councilor philip knolls is here today to introduce that also just to say one welcome to other members that's attended we've got councilor graham giel council ben green councilor yes is it yeah just see me on tim and we've got the leader of the council council ashford back sir and the councilor philip knolls the cabinet member and he's going to introduce this item for us today thank you philip thank you chair and thank you for your welcome uh item this item outlines cerca steven district council's performance against the corporate plan from for 2020 to 2023 it's the key performance indicators also for january to march 2024 and it presents a summary of overall performance over the lifestyle life cycle of the corporate plan remember this corporate plan finished in 2023 or april we adopted a new corporate plan taking us forward for the next three or four years and future documents of this nature will refer to that corporate plan the new one that's been adopted and will uh the kpis have been agreed by this committee for that new corporate plan um this is the last presentation therefore uh for the corporate plan 2020-23 it lists nine actions under the priority clean and sustainable environment these actions were set by the council's agenda for the life of that plan and the first round of performance reporting in 2020-21 introduced the criteria for what successful delivery would look like the criterion have been used as a yardstick to judge the council's over perform overall performance against these stated actions skdc have achieved six of the nine stated actions under that priority clean and sustainable environment in the former corporate plan um i won't say that they are irrelevant they are not because the information in front of you includes the performance in this last uh quarter as well as over the last four years uh but we have to take it in the thing that these targets were set uh four years ago and they don't really refer to what is happening with the new corporate plan one of the actions is rated there were five actions reported three of the actions were rated green they were satisfactory one of the actions was rated amber this is an action which is currently below the plan target and none of the actions were rated red one is currently awaiting data from the county council the new kpi suite was adopted by this committee in march 2024 and the first report for that will be at quarter three of this year which will be measuring against the new corporate plan thank you chair council for living also thank you very much indeed um i'm going to ask debbie roberts if she'd like to add any further comments to that there's there's one item on it that is below target i'd just like to ask debbie if she'd uh comment on that as well please thank you chairman i think you're referring to um a clean and sustainable environment number nine which is the building a new modern depot which is fit for purpose for the future um and the reason that one is amber um is purely because uh the construction and stage was uh anticipated to have started when we when we drafted the plan and as members are aware that that hasn't commenced yet and just to say as well that this agenda item around modern depot is a standard agenda item for fedco as well so they received the finance side of updates on this agenda item thank you okay thank you very much are there any comments council mark wettington yeah thanks joan just a couple the first one is on the item where we're currently awaiting the data from lcc which is around uh recycling rates and i appreciate obviously the difficulty of reporting on it if the date's not not being received i'm just wondering um when the data is received will this be reported back to this committee and also regarding the the depot uh just an update as to where we are in terms of the plan you know obviously i i think there has been a little bit of slippage on it but it would be i think interesting to know the extent of that thank you mr chairman yes absolutely fair fair fair to fair comments if you've made their mark um would anybody like to answer them can i come back on the first point and that's in the interest of transparency oh absolutely we're definitely going to get this over um i would like it to be emailed as soon as we've got it and then if there's any comments that need to be made on it we can with your permission mr chairman add it to a future meeting for debate and discussion but certainly as soon as we've got the data it needs to be out in the public domain and in front of this committee thank you and regarding the second one the depot it would have been helpful if uh if mr wiles was head oh he is sorry i didn't see you did i visit this chairman richard warm welcome to the committee thank you for inviting me if indeed you did uh so as debbie said this is a stunning item on the finance committee's agenda there'll be an update report going to the 27th of june's meeting uh but as a kind of overview if you like uh planning permissions in place the budget's in place we're currently in discussion with the awarded contractor to value engineer the price submission that was uh provided to the council to bring it back into line with the budget so that process is underway at the moment the target date for uh on-site construction is september which is as per the program that was presented to cabinet so as we see here today it's it's roughly in in line with the expectations that were set out before council so are we on target or not is the question on target against the uh timeline that's presented to cabinet yes we are okay um just anybody further comments on that um council howson thank you it's not on that it's um on the whole thing so looking on page 73 the cleanest sustainable environment um item two um deliver the big clean program maintain our high street standards no longer reported uh i've got a slight issue with that specifically in my ward um i've got um staff coming to me um telling me that they can no longer deliver on the so def rather um best practice sort of guidelines to have the streets clean to an a standard in a town centre by 8 30 a.m and they've they're telling me that now that their hours have been changed and their new start time just starting two hours later in the day that they can't achieve defra's um best practice guidelines um so i'm a little bit concerned on that and i'm wondering why why we're not reporting on that anymore um because walking around my ward quite often um sort of before 10 o'clock in the morning there is a lot of waste bags and and uh what not left around lying in the streets and quite often they're left from when the bins were put out on the thursday and they're still there on the monday morning so i'd like something discussing on that if if that's possible okay thank you for that council so is there anybody a character member or uh ashley would like to comment on that i've got to find my button uh i so obviously we want to keep the streets clean um i'm a little bit um bemused at why we're we've got an item that says deliver the big clean program no longer reported and not reported being reported to this committee uh these um priorities or these performance indicators have been agreed by the committee uh i'm i think in future iterations we need to be clear which ones are still on there because there's a few on here which are no longer reported and if they're no longer reported they shouldn't be coming to this committee however um chancellor harrison if chancellor harrison has got a specific concern about the state of the streets then obviously the first port port of call is to speak to the cabinet member responsible perhaps outside this meeting and if it becomes an ongoing issue then maybe it needs to come back here so that we put it in as an issue that wouldn't be the big clean program the big clean program was a deliberate and although it was expensive quite successful um program to really get a deep clean of streets across the district including villages and wherever and it was a high standard to maintain and the committee it would appear have chosen not not to have that as a reportable item each time um but i don't know whether the cabinet member for waste or the relevant offices want to say anything about the the way that we clean grantham town centre or any of the other town centres at the moment okay thank you thank you very much for that ashley um i believe it's councilor peter mosley that was the portfolio holder at the time introducing the big cleaner funny enough i bumped into him for the first time uh last week since he'd left the council so um yeah so the work that peter did on that credit credit where it's due um that's obviously the previous administration and we've got councilor reese baker wanted to come back and comment on that and i'm going to come to harish i believe okay sure you don't speak okay then i'm going to come to you house is that okay okay race please i echo what councilor baxter said we absolutely want to keep our streets clean and it's really important that where we find that to use councilor jules phrase the ology grott spots we need to address them we are aware of a couple of places around the district where some residents have been perhaps unclear on what day they put their waste out and have taken advantage of the street scene team cleaning up after them and putting their bags out every single day of the week just as they get filled and we are looking at some communication with those groups we are looking at ultimately enforcement action if that can't be brought back under control because we don't want to see waste all over our streets we certainly don't want to have the potential for any health issues that go alongside them it's a very multi-phased approach obviously we work with aisha with the fly tipping team and where where we see that large amounts of rubbish are put out please get in contact with me and i will make sure it's cleaned up and i am in conversation with karen whitfield on a regular basis about this issue we are at the moment trying to get our communication pitched at the right level so that we are not fighting against our residents but working with them to ensure that we're all making our towns and villages as welcoming places as possible and that includes a an everybody muck in forgive the pun everybody muck in sort of approach to waste management but i'm more than happy if you what three words me or provide me the street names to follow up on individual aspects thank you thank you very much indeed for that uh harish harish next i'm also aware that debbie robbins would like to speak as well so then i'll come to debbie and then council ben green i believe wants to speak as well so then i'll come to come to you men so harish thank you mr chairman it's with regards to the big clean one of the operations was going on it was quite successful i think quite a lot our streets are in very good conditions but however most of the growth of the weeds that grows are around the pavements they were not pulled out or in any way the roots were they were just cut and left there so of course within three four months they come back again and this is the whole thing coming up they're coming again and they are back to normal they are overgrown especially in stamford you've got quite a number of streets in the town center that is overgrown with them i was going to suggest when it says here the big clean was not achieved here which part of it was actually quite a number of it was achieved but i think certain parts is paid for to give the permanence of of cleanliness of the growth of these weeds in the streets and make it look untidy and then you've got paper plastics everything gets stuck in it in there it's still there have we abandoned the big clean now because i'm not seeing anything happen happened over the last three years thank you for your comments um i'm going to come to um counsel no it's not council officer debbie roberts medical decals thank you chairman um it's just to reiterate to the committee obviously on page 69 um the appendix that we're referring to and delivering the big clean was a previous action from the last corporate plan obviously that isn't in the new corporate plan um and there is some commentary there that the program and monitoring ceased in 21 22 to assist members thank you yeah thank you debbie we have fair fair point there um it's not on the current corporate plan so the kpi's are obviously in relation to that uh counsel ben green welcome to the committee to the committee meeting today well thank you and thank you very much for your indulgence chair it's just about the depot um i just wanted to confirm that it will deliver a minimum 10 biodiversity net gain um it has been noticed that a number of trees already been felled there so there's obviously some loss in terms of biodiversity has been incurred are we going to compensate for that and at least achieve a 10 gain against that just looking for that clarification thank you thank you ben would any of our officers like to answer that question will it achieve the 10 net gain rich has given a face which means he's not quite sure um i would say as part of the planning application there is probably a biodiversity net gain um uh figuring included so the the scheme has got planning consent and it will be outlined in there what the conditions are around biodiversity net gain i would like to come back on that ben um well only really briefly i'm in my way now that that is in statute and is law so i would expect that for a live planning application but um yeah hopefully we can look forward to that to that offset then yeah thank you we'll we'll we'll keep an eye on that one then shall we went okay council graham jill uh thank you mr chairman um page 74 green bins um just just a couple of points on this did the comments at bottom well green bins and waste in general say that the commercial waste is running at maximum capacity and is unable to prospect for new business um without investment can we have a few a bit more of an explanation around that well what's happening with that how long has it been a maximum capacity what are we missing out on there uh how much income are we missing out on there what is the investment needed what's missing there also the on target to this is doing a little bit of a little bit of heavy lifting in the obviously the detail although we're on target over the four year over the four years the actual number achieved in the last year is slightly down on the last year which 36 839 is that just because we had a really good year in 22 23 and that things came off a little bit or are we going to reset our targets based on that if you can just give us a little bit of commentary as to why green bins are down over the calendar year uh green bin collections that is so just a couple of comments on that but other than that a lot of positive stuff on this report um like to congratulate everyone involved in in this report and all the the work that's been done on this thank you great thank you thank you kindly for those those closing closing ones maybe we're waiting for the expansion of the waste depot i don't know but uh councilor ashley baxley these are the council like to answer yeah thank you chair and thank you for the question i've got a little bit of deja vu because i feel like um we've we've been here before with the trade waste scheme the trade waste uh collections were something that the council implemented some time ago because uh it was felt that the the the free market wasn't delivering um so the the likes of bifer and viola and and and elsewhere weren't meeting the needs of uh trade waste customers in south kestevan therefore uh we implemented uh we we provided a trade waste service i think with the intention of disrupting the marketplace and and delivering for our residents or for our businesses what wasn't being delivered elsewhere when it says that it is at capacity it means that literally the the wagons that go out to collect the trade waste are not able to collect any more so that the next step would be to introduce another wagon we could do that but that would mean that we would be at kind of 50 50 percent of capacity and people would say well why aren't you why aren't you getting more customers our our role as a local authority is to ensure the services are delivered not to necessarily to deliver the services and i think since we're setting up of the trade way service the the marketplace has kind of upped its game a bit in order to to compete with with us so it's a success story by any measure and don't see that the fact that we are at capacity as a bad thing it's definitely a good thing because among other things it is bringing in a revenue to the council um on the green waste uh i think uh counselor baker might want to to add but i think as an absolute measure uh having lots of the the absolute number of green bins collected isn't a good measure of whether the service is working we want people to put out less waste rather than more i think the number of green even the number of green bin customers isn't a very good measure we would rather that people recycle the the green waste at home so leaving the clippings on the lawn setting up compost bins and so on so although it is a measure it's a it's an indicator of how the service is going having more bins or having more bins collected isn't necessarily a good thing and having fewer bins collected isn't necessarily a good thing this is just a measure actually thank you very much indeed for that so we still do want to come in on that as the cabinet member thank you and thank you for the question um the other issue that we've got with enhancing or extending our capacity for trade waste is of course where do we put the wagon um as has been reported to full council this committee and cabinet our current depot is completely full whilst we have licensing for one more wagon there is actually no physical space however good my misspent youth on tetris was played i wouldn't be able to get a wagon into this it's obviously something that can be reviewed when we have the additional capacity provided by the depot i think that providing our residents choice i think that providing our residents a reliable environmentally sound and sensible service is absolutely paramount but we have to work within our physical constraints and at this time it is just a physical constraint on the green waste i completely accept that numbers going up are very easy to cast as good um i take what council baxter has said and and i i echo it when we look at the conservative government's environmental policies one of the really fantastic things that they have put in is this emphasis on a reduction in waste not just looking on how it's recycled or removed but that reduction and that that's got cross-party support it's a very sensible green measure and so i do echo that that having the numbers come down is not necessarily a bad thing however we need to keep an eye on trends because we need to make sure that the bins are being priced appropriately we need to make sure that the investment that we've got in the service is appropriate and i am more than happy to keep this camp that this council this committee appraised on the trends of this as it comes up in my regular meetings with k thank you very much indeed reese for that uh and my comment at this a few moments ago about probably waiting for the new depot because unless we get this the expansion and the capacity there you know we're we're we can't deliver certain services anyway so um i said council i'm aware council would want to speak but i think council howson did you put your hand up a while ago didn't council would council poor would yeah thank you mr i must admit i didn't quite understand what councillor baxter and councillor baker said about the number of bins councillor back actually you said about it's not necessarily a good thing to collect more it's not necessarily a good thing to collect less so my question really is what is it what are we aiming for then are we just the same number of what must be named for more or less of do something i find it confusing what your answer okay well let's hope we can get some clarification for you paul uh councillor ashley baxter i'm sorry you're confused uh councillor wood uh what i'm saying is that the amount of waste that people present is going to change it might change for good reasons or it might change for bad reasons so for example a resident might put out less green waste because they've taken away their entire front garden to to cover it over with paving slabs that could be seen as a bad thing but it would result in in less waste on the other hand a resident might put out less waste because they are have created a compost bin in their garden or are leaving the the ground the the grass clippings on the lawn instead or creating their own mulch so there are there are positive reasons and negative reasons why the amount of green waste presented for collection goes up and there are positive and negative reasons why the amount presented for collection might go down and then there's also a seasonal aspect to it if it rains more we tend to get more growth and therefore there's more to be presented so as i said before this is an indicator it's indicating how much waste we are collecting but we shouldn't read too much into it actually thank you very much indeed now i'm aware we've got quite an agenda here in front of us today there's the agenda and would like to move on if any if anybody's got any further comments on the kpis the recommendations here in front of us today is one review and scrutinize the performance against the corporate key plan corporate plan key performance indicators in relation to the delivery of the corporate plan 2020 to 2023 priorities and outcomes and number two use this report to inform and support the ongoing pro work program of the committee i'll propose those recommendations seconded anyone all those in favor say unanimous you know us thank you very much indeed and thank you to our officers and philip for introducing that for us so thank you okay we'll move on to agenda item number 10 k i believe you're going to introduce this for us please oh i do apologize do apologize council reese baker uh cabinet member would you like to introduce this sorry sorry okay thank you mr chairman what i would like though after this introduction and any further discussion on that is to invite k to give an update on the battery collection that i think fits quite nicely into this agenda item on our w-e-e-e policies this report provides an update on the recent announcements from governments on the sale and disposal of disposable vapes it's a very sensible approach i believe trying to keep up with what has been a dramatic increase in our littering and waste that we've found and as it has got small batteries in there it actually does put a number of our crews at risk for the inappropriate disposal of vapes in january 2024 the government announced that all disposable vapes will be banned in england this is to be clear is disposable vapes those people who do engage in vaping will still be able to use non-disposable vapes and this was down to the growing concern over environmental impacts of disposable vapes given their hard to recycle components and as i'm sure we've all seen around our streets an increasing frequency with which these products are littered or thrown in the bin leading to harm to the environment as well as by harm to our biodiversity in december 23 the government opened a consultation on small small waste electrical items and among other themes the consultation explored the role of local authorities in collecting and disposing of this waste stream alongside other issues as creating a new category specifically for vapes at the time of writing this report no further updates have been released by government we felt it prudent to let this committee know we obviously don't expect any further updates over the next five weeks any changes which are mandated because of legislative changes may be funded by the producers so we are we believe it would be premature to introduce any significant collection changes before any funding opportunities are understood to put that another way we do anticipate if this becomes mandatory and we're not already collecting we would be eligible for new burden funding whereas if we put in the collection methodology now we would not be eligible for that funding and that will put additional burden on the finances of our council and the taxpayers money that we are stewards of thank you very much yeah thank you aces obviously we're obviously better off waiting to see the outcome and we're not going to have any costs that we wouldn't normally be able to get the funding for so absolutely so thank you thank you for that introduction I'm going to ask our head of Waste Management and Market Services to give us a little bit more information on that which is Kaye Bozeman before I do just to say I've received a request from Councillor Ben Green with regarding an update on the batch of the curbside collection of batteries something I've been asking myself so we're singing from the same hymn sheet on that Ben we would both like to know what the latest is on that so I hope you're happy for it to come under this item rather than have you wait until any other business if you're okay with that and I'm going to ask Kaye if she'd just give us just if you wanted to add anything to what Councillor Baker's just said with regarding the vapes and then the curbside battery collection please thank you chair yeah so with regarding the the vapes I think it's it's quite clear that's still a bit up in the air and it's likely that under the the changes when they do come when they are announced the disposal of batteries and the wee items and the disposable vapes will be covered under the extended producer responsibility arm of the environment act so based on this we just think it's sensible to hold fire and see what comes out of it so that we can make sure that we don't make any changes which may not align and have to either change things again or miss out on that funding as Councillor Baker suggested I know it's possibly quite frustrating but we do think that's the best course of action in response to the the vapes at the minute in terms of the the battery collections so again I know that this has been delayed I think it was due to to start in March and then it was pushed back again to the summer we have had a delay in getting the licenses so for us to be able to store the batteries that are collected at our current site we have to get a variation on our permit and this takes a little bit of time to get we still don't have that but with working with our colleagues at LCC we have come up with an interim solution where they can help us take the waste at the site that's at the HWRC next to the depot so based on this we believe well we're confident we will be looking at introducing the kerbside battery collection from September this year the reason it will be September is because we had to delay the the twin stream rejections which restart shortly and I know we're going to discuss that later so I won't go into it too much now but that project will run through the summer and to avoid confusion because there's a lot of change coming we'd like to get the the twin stream up and running and really on its feet and kind of explore that with the residents making sure we do it properly before we introduce another change to our kerbside collection so based on the licenses the current projects we've got running we think that September is a good time to introduce this change to our collections and we'll be we'll be able to bring that that service kind of to fruition then I also know in the questions there was talking we were asked about kind of the communications and the plan probably in the course of the next few weeks we'll start looking into that and as soon as we've brought the plan to life as soon as we start putting some meat on the bones and fleshing that out we will of course be happy to share wherever that needs to go so that you know yourselves and and members of the public are aware that the change is coming and what it will look like okay thank you very much indeed for that I'm going to ask Councillor Ben Green if he'd like to come back on that first of all though I don't believe you have a Scottish accent do you okay because the acronym we is is actually waste electronic and electrical equipment so I just thought I'd clarify that just in thought just in case you thought okay I've got a Scottish accent there my apologies yes I'm used to all the acronyms no worries okay no need no no apology required so it's not it's not we as in little items okay so I've just explained that acronym to him Councillor Ben Green would you like to come back on on that yes thank you very much chair and indeed thank you for shunting this up the agenda to to item 10 obviously it's a fairly packed agenda so well that is hugely welcome and I indeed you know thank Kay for that update you know that that's great to hear and I would say broadly speaking there's tremendous goodwill behind this policy and this scheme I don't think there's a single councillor who opposes it you know we all understand the concept as a real no-brainer other local authorities are doing it this was originally modeled on what Rushcliffe have been doing for a number of years where they collect tons of batteries and I think we all grasp and intuitively get the the idea that we are running a gauntlet the longer this isn't introduced obviously there is that risk from bin lorry fires we've also seen at some facilities I think notably in born it was actually a scrap yard where a compressed battery detonating cause you know quite a serious fire you know from my point of view obviously representing rural communities it's quite a slog and a drive to go up to a super market and to dump your batteries there obviously if we've got bin lorries driving by people's houses makes total sense to pick up batteries in situ as and when those lorries already going by you know we're already going to people in effect so that solves half the problem so yes as I say tremendous goodwill behind all of that and I think you know that very much needs to be repaid with with this promise of the rollout conducted from September to to really be on it I think previously we were talking about March then we were talking about June now it's September I think there is some anxiety certainly on our side that we may be on shifting sands and September could could rapidly become December or even beyond that with all of the risks that that then may entail for the extended period that we aren't adopting this this policy so obviously I understand it the issue with with LCC I look forward to this being adopted in September would say obviously from from Reese's point of view there is that power of the bully pulpit they're all the soft levers that can be pulled to to really get our county council colleagues on board with with what feels like just a bureaucratic hoop actually just to jump through here there's nothing sort of physically impossible with with getting this achieved it's just it sounds to me a case of getting the the paperwork and the bureaucracy sorted out so look forward to September look forward to the communications which I think are a key part I think commencing from August if I understand correctly let's just hope it's September thank you very much indeed Ben for that just just two points if anybody is desperate to dispose of their batches supermarkets do offer a free service so so there is that option there for if anybody wishes dispose of them urgently and also just to say we had as members it will know we had one of the new the new blue bin wagon appeared outside the front of the council offices just a few weeks ago to promote prostate cancer and and while it was there I took the opportunity to speak to the manager and we discussed where would be the safest place to put you know the batteries on on the wagon and you know for safe safe safety for the for the operatives and ever so it's been it's been in conversation with myself Ben as well so so you know it's it's something we're keen to do as ASAP but as I say if if we're like myself have been collecting mine if we get that desperate I'll go to a supermarket which they do provide that that free service so this is obviously an additional service that we that we will be providing I've got Councillor Mark which is and then I'm going to come to Councillor wastebaker Mark yes thanks Mr Chairman yeah I think that's really good comment you make because we know that in the previous administration when I had the portfolio that we did have a fire in one of our bins out of Inglesby I'm not sure if he was caused by by a vape or by a by a by battery is only by one of those and yes I think I think I think I think I think as as Councillor Baker said the safety of our staff is imperative I mean they handle that particular incident really really well so but my question was actually on the vaping policy and actually after after hearing the comments of from both Councillor Baker okay I think it's entirely appropriate that we do actually wait to see you know when regulations are firmed up and obviously to see see what funding might be available under new burdens I accept the the argument that we don't really want to go too far with this because we may find that we have to incur the costs and then we're not eligible for any further funding but just an element of risk if the regulations do come in and funding is available have we got a kind of a risk mitigation if I if the funding is not enough to cover the cost of doing it or if there isn't any funding so so just a bit of reassurance around around them Mr Chairman thank you yeah thank you Mike we certainly need a plan b with with regarding the funding no way but we certainly don't want to be jumping the gun with that so absolutely all artically on board with you that Councillor East Baker if I can take those in order please I completely agree with everything Councillor Green has said not always the case but I certainly do dovetail with you quite nicely in this one Councillor all of those deadlines all of those promises that were made they were made in good conscience we we went forward saying with the best data available this is when it's going to be hit and it was other bodies beyond SKDC that came back and said actually we haven't got your paperwork through actually your site's not appropriate actually actually actually I want to see this done in September I will bully pulpit is perhaps a bit strong but I will be being very clear that we need to have this ready in September and part of our commitment to having that ready in September is that is that commitment to starting to get the education and the communication materials out ahead of it it's good policy it's good for our residents it's good for our workers it's good for the climate we're just fighting a little bit of bureaucracy as I'm glad that you acknowledge and that's just unfortunately there seems to be a lot of paperwork that goes through that with Councillor Whittington's point I completely agree that we should always have a plan B and with many of the aspects of the Environment Act that haven't quite had the flesh on the bones or have suggested right we're going to give you this funding councils have come back to the government in consultation said that is insufficient we have appealed decisions where the amount of money for example for the next roll out of food waste collection is insufficient based on an improper calculation of what Southka Stephen actually needs so we're well rehearsed we're well ready for this sort of putting our needs ahead of everything else to make sure that this council is not unduly affected either monetarily or in the policy roll out it needs to work it needs to work sensibly. Councillor Baker thank you very much Mark do you want to come back? Yes thanks Mr Chairman thanks thanks Councillor Baker I'm reassured that we have made some challenges to central governments and I welcome that thank you. Mark thank you very much indeed any further comments on this this is a report to be now just to be noted okay Councillor Philip Knowles. Yes thank you chair can I just ask a question about vaping it seems to me that nothing happened in the next five weeks about vaping and it might not be the highest priority of any new government which takes over in five weeks what happens if vaping gets put on the backburner which I think is highly likely because it won't be a priority and how long do we go on saying we'll do note and wait before we decide well we've got to do something it's likely to be a long time off I think any sensible policy and also a secondary question is will any announcement be such as a guideline government guideline on what to do on vaping but presumably that is the case they can add funds to that if it is going to be adding funds to our solutions on vaping it would have to go through a parliament and that's going to take a long time as well so I fear that vaping is not going to happen very quickly. I think the question is how long is a piece of string is it I don't know the answer to the question but I think I think you've made I think you've made a fair point there Philip I think even though it was a question is can we take it as a as a comment and a fair point because I don't think any of us know the answer to that question if truth be known okay all all those noting the report those happy to note the report yeah okay right we'll move on if that's okay we've still got quite a few items we've got we've got a the twins twins stream update make sure yes agenda item number 11 and just a note on this we've got on all members briefing this evening between 6 and 7 p.m via teams as well on this issue so who's is reese introducing this council reese baker cabinet member thank you mr chairman this is just an update on the next steps I echo again what the chairman said there is a team's briefing for all members strongly encourage everybody that can make it to make it if you miss it and want the salient points let me know and I'll send it off this report is looking at timelines for the reintroduction of the contamination monitoring process for mixed dry recycling or dry mixed recycling as part of a roll out of lwp's twin stream project south coast even started separating paper and card for collection in january the paper and card aspects I think we can all agree has been a resounding success collection data indicates that about 99% of bins presented were successfully collected and I thank all members for helping out there I've seen whatever our colour whatever our stripe we're all on message helping our residents put the right thing in the right bin there alongside the new paper and card rollout it was agreed that the contamination issue in our silver bins the dry mixed recycling bins would be addressed and this was due to the fact that our contamination rate sits at around about 30% so if you think about that another way one in three items put into the dry mixed recycling bin shouldn't be there and that contaminates the end product that we separate and process once collected due to some issues around aggression and violence towards our operatives delivering the service we're all aware that rejections that was started on monday the 19th of february were quickly paused from wednesday the 21st of february and whilst that initial rejection plan was paused it was acknowledged that the council would need to investigate the challenges adapt the original plan to ensure that it was better suited and targeted to the needs of our residents I stood up in council and I made those promises I stood up in council and said we will learn from this and we will listen this report highlights the three phased approach which has been established through a project group made up on of LCC representatives SKDC officers and cabinet representatives this is a multi-pronged multi-agency initiative that is good policy we got everybody involved this project will run throughout the summer with the aim of driving contamination down and the project group will provide feedback to this committee as required I would like to remind everybody those listening at home everybody here I think will already take this as read that our waste operatives are well trained they're out doing their job in all weathers and all conditions it is not a particular legally safe job and they work very very hard for our district I speak for all of us I'm certain that we do not wish to see repeated the abusive behaviour we saw in February it was completely unacceptable we take the well-being of our staff incredibly seriously and we will take any and all appropriate steps to protect our staff through from any instances of abuse please give them a smile and a wave ask questions if you need treat them with the respect they deserve and that's a message for everybody in SKDC these guys and girls do a fantastic job that we are very grateful for happy to give more information and just one final plug for that team's meeting this evening thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you very much indeed and now before we go to the committee members I'm just going to ask if Kay would like to add any further comments to that or are you okay with with with the introduction then I want to come to Paul, Councillor Ford, then Councillor Mark Whittington. Thank you chair no I think Rhys has covered it all quite nicely and just really to reiterate about the briefing this afternoon we will be we'll be going to it in quite in depth and Rachel from LCC will be there as well she can answer a lot of the technical questions so just that encouragement to to attend really. Okay thank you I'd just like to thank Rhys for regarding the comments you know for our staff absolutely you're absolutely spot on there so thank you for those. Councillor Paul Wood. Thank you Mr Chairman I fully understand the need for recycling I fully understand the need to cut down on contamination of the bins but I think Councillor Baker I can't agree with Councillor Baker when he says it's been a resounding success yes we might have done some of those things but at the expense of upsetting a lot of the residents I mean I think a lot of us have had. So Paul just one second what would you point of information here? I think I was quite clear that I said the purple lidded bins were a resounding success I acknowledge the challenges that these silver bins brought forward I'm not saying that the silver bins were an unmitigated success. Okay thank you thank you for that clarification Paul Wood. Well I'm pleased that Councillor Baker says that because it doesn't but I do think we are a scrutiny committee so I think it is our job to scrutinise it how well did it go what could be done better my question for you Councillor Baker really is now you've accepted it wasn't a resounding success what things have we learnt now I'm pleased that we altered the original because we got loads of complaints loads of bins that were rejected and now we've gone back to a more conciliatory way of looking at the bins and tagging them which is good but I still think the way went about it will Councillor Baker actually agree that we did go about it we launched in too much we didn't consult enough and we did upset a lot of the residents a lot of my residents I also think there's a bit of a problem still with what's put in the bins and I was given a bit theatrical but I was given this box which is the Marks and Spencer's food package Paul can you speak into your microphone please right it says it's fully recyclable but apart from putting it do I put that in the black bin they only think it's a cardboard box assume there's no food but there is a plastic front on them and a lot of food boxes do have that does that have to go in the black bin or can that go in the paper and cardboard even though it's got a plastic front on it so I think I was confused about where to put it I mean try and be nice Councillor Baker and tell me where to put it not in a sensible way but I would ask Councillor Baker if he accepts those problems does he accepts how we went about it wrong we upset a lot of people and please we've made steps to put that right but what are the lessons learnt from that and tell me where to put this please but Paul I think you've made very fair points now that that little bit of plastic you bit on the front quite a lot of sandwiches and things like that food packages if they're not contaminated mainly cardboard but with a plastic thing on the front and it does say quite clearly on it recyclable yeah fair point Paul I actually personally if I get something like that I'll take the little bit of plastic off I'll rip it off and I'll put it in I'll put that in the black I know I guess those I go to those eggs to do it though Paul and I actually put that plastic a bit there you go I want that odd come on blimey yeah then I'll put that in the in the black bin and the paper in the cardboard or you know so that's what I personally do I wouldn't say all of it but I don't know I'm okay you can answer that for us technically yes I just took her in on that as a technical answer you can put all of that in your your purple lidded bin and the process will remove that you also have the option of taking the the plastic out and disposing of it in your residual wasting but the process is designed to take into account that packaging does come like that so if you have a paper or card envelope box you can put that in your bin and we will take it and the process will sort that however I do believe that's if it's food waste and it's got food potentially contaminating the cardboard that could be that could be more of an issue than the plastic window but I appreciate that it is complex and there are always going to be areas you know where you are unsure please feel free if it's if it's a slightly odd one to send it over and me and the team will will provide some clarification on it thank you for that Kate Paul thank you for bringing your lunch pack with you and sharing it with us I mean just on the on the I'm going to come to Mark in a moment I mean personally I wasn't aware that that black plastic is one of those things that you can't resolve and that has to go into your black bin I think brown brown plastic as well that's and that's another item so you know it's a learning curve for us all and personally you know I would just like a little bit more specifics on when when somebody does put something in a bin and it gets rejected I just want to know all the one is exactly which item it is so then the you know the the the won't repeat the the mistake I've got to come sorry sorry so I'm going to come to Councillor Mike Whittington on that particular point okay okay fine thank you Mr Chairman because then I'll be able to come back on Councillor Whittington's point I don't want to miss anything out and these are all very sensible questions regarding what we've learnt it's contained within the pages of the report and as regarding an apology I stood up in front of this entire council and made a very public apology listing what I thought were the failings of my role within this rollout in February the text of which is still on the SKDC website the text of which was shared with every Councillor and I further asked for Councillors to share that text with the parishes I of course take my own role in this very responsibly and very seriously because it's not the mistakes you make it is how you respond to them that is the making of a person as far as Councillor Wood's comments on fully recyclable what he's hit on is the tip of an iceberg the legislative requirements around our package labeling are very vague and very nebulous what the phrase fully recyclable means is that somewhere in Europe there is a plant that could convert that material into virgin material to be used for other projects not that it could be done within equitable and economical distance of this council for example toothpaste tubes cannot be recycled except for one site I believe it's in Suffolk so this is where our supermarkets come in with our soft plastics they collect a huge amount of soft plastic and send it off to the two or three processing plants for recycling it doesn't mean it could be handled by our processing plant we have got a full A to Z on our website for what goes into what bin that is regularly updated Kay's not joking when she says send me I don't think we need a FedEx box of your bin but if you take some photos we're more than happy to look at that and get them onto the A to Z a lot of the information is on the right thing right bin leaflet which our operatives will be taking round with them next week as we start those rejections but my big message and it feels paradoxical it feels counterintuitive and I get that if you're not sure put it in your black bin that is better for the environment than risking contaminating your silver stream put it in the black bin a small increase in black bin waste mass is more than offset by getting that 30% that one in three items that shouldn't be in our mixed dry recycling into the correct stream oh and sorry sorry Mr Chairman there was a point that you made on you want to know what is in the bin if your bin gets rejected I'm pleased to tell everybody and again it's in the body of the report that where bins are rejected from next week there will be a comprehensive rejection tag that is added onto the bin letting people know exactly what's there but just common sense supplies nappies clothes pizza boxes food waste that sort of stuff has never been acceptable thank you yeah thank you race and thank you for the apology that you gave because the members of the public felt that it was a heavy handed response that you know to to this issue and you know they are our customers you know they're our constituents you know I personally believe in treating people how I like to be treated myself so no thank you thank you indeed for that I dare say that this evening you may have to repeat a lot of your comments you know for the members briefing and there's something else I was going to ask as well which is just slipped my mind um which I'll probably come back to in a moment ah Councillor Mark Whittington I think you're next on the list yeah I mean first of all I think Councillor Baker and your sovereignty chair made a very very good point about our our staff you know they do a fantastic job I mean um during Covid for instance we provided a bin collection service right through our Covid a lot of some local authorities didn't do that so it's testament to our staff that we did that and when I had the portfolio we had the really hot summer of two years ago and we took special precautions to make sure our staff were actually protected and they went out in 40 degree heat they go out in snow they go out in pouring rain they do a fantastic job and it's completely unacceptable that they are subjected to any form of intimidation or violence or threats when they're um you know undertaking their role so so I think that we'll have the support of every Councillor I think that there has to be a no tolerance given to anybody who who treats our staff in such a way going through the report um I actually think that lessons have been learned because if you're going through the phase policy that I see before me it seems to be happening over a longer time there's things like the first phase the tags will be oops tags so that's a kind of I think a nice friendly gentle gentle reminder um and then you can see how it's then going to be you know increased in its intensity but there's still going to be an element of um education because I think that's really important I used to have this portfolio on the first day of the purple bin I got a rejection tag so and I should have and I should have known that what I was putting in I got a tag anyway um so and it is a learning curve for everybody but what I'm pleased to see throughout here is the comments like additional staff training has been arranged training will continue to ensure consistency additional resources will be focused so so I think there is a acknowledgement that potentially the mistakes were made but I think it is important that we do learn from those um I think so so so all I would say is that I think there is a lot that we can do as members to to support this but I also accept there are some grey areas potentially where you may not be entirely sure what goes in in what bin but I've been telling my residents the same message the council baker if in doubt put it in the black now we know that I think our use up we've had about we've seen about three percent increase in our black in our black bin waste this quarter that's comparable quarter last year I suspect that's probably an element of that but of course it's worth remembering that all the black bin waste in Lincolnshire doesn't go to landfill it goes to the energy from waste plant to link and it's converted into electricity and I think last year only about one percent of our actual black bin waste in Lincolnshire did go to landfill and that tends to go either way and that mainly goes with energy from waste plants got an issue and it's and it's and it's offline so even if it does go in the black it will be it will go to some use because because it will be converted converted into into electricity so I think lessons have been learned I think obviously educating both our staff and and the the members of the public is important obviously this is this is going live next week is next week so so no no no it is live already isn't it it is really live yeah so so so so so so I think that it seems to me that a more sensible graduated approach is now being taken to all of this which I think is it's a question of you know learning learning from mistakes the only real question I would have is that at some point could we have this committee have an update as to how it went because obviously it's important for us we can all do our bit and we can scrutinize but I think it's interesting to then get the feedback to then see how the plan has then been received you know thank you Mr Chairman. Well thank you very much indeed for those comments lessons have been learned and I hope we're not counting our chickens counting our chickens in another month's time we're coming back and saying this this this and that and then we got the purple lidded bin I only had mine empty for the first time I think it was last week when they came around I missed the previous occasion but it simply took me ages to fill the the purple lidded bin and I do live on my own though so maybe that's why but you know I've been quite to quite to yeah key to get that one emptied the question that that had slipped me in mind before was something that I hope will happen I hope we can answer this question for me with the teams that are going around putting the stickers on and everything you know when you when you get just to a bin and there's just probably one item in it that's causing the contamination it would be nice if if the if the member of the public has got an opportunity and the staff are going ahead of the bin wagons collection you know maybe 20 minutes half an hour before and at least give if they could give the resident an opportunity to just to remove that one item and then the bin can be emptied it would be nice if if just a little bit of cooperation with our residents like that that that that could happen so I'm going to come to I'm going to come to Barry I've got Ben would like to speak and then I'll ask our officers if they'd like to any further comments so thank you Chairman yes I just wonder how much time that's good that would cost to ask them to come here I know what you mean but I think also I would like to know and if anyone would tell me the recycling trucks so when they come to grant them to pick up the the paper waste and take it over to a paper mill in Kingsley is that run by them or do we pay for that is it our trucks or perhaps someone to help me on that one please I don't know the answer but we'll come to one of our officers to see oh do you want to I think it's easier than that we'll take the simply come back on the questions if you've got any more questions yeah then I've got all that now yeah but the most confusion is now putting in the silver bin because we've been used I think all the residents have been happy to put paper you know plastic what have you in the silver bin and it's just educating them you know I had a dear old lady phoned me up and she said well what do I do she said I don't really know what I'm putting in the silver bin now so I said well put it in the black bin first if you're not sure but also there are others and we had the annual parish meeting and in my ward on two parishes and they're all quite happy about this and they were just really now wondering how they can get all the paper into the purple it had been you know the cardboard and everything I was probably the only got customers of one of those American companies that send out you order it an hour later it's at your doorstep sort of thing but there there is a lot of cardboard and good recycling material going into those purple bins and I know the first one a lot of them phoned me up and complained that the you know they had left bits and pieces on the street and they sent me photographs and I said well if you look at that they shouldn't be in the purple bin I think it's been a learning curve for a lot of residents but I think the main thing is I think to make and I think we brought out a new leaflet there was a leaflet to show what goes in which bin and I think that could possibly be a little clearer but I think it is quite clear to most people and I think that the silver bin is I got a yellow tag last week for putting something in there and I believe it was paper that I put in there by accident what may not have been me it might have been the wife so I put that on her sheet but I think it's going really well and I think that we must remember that the black bin can take lots of things but we don't necessarily want to put them in there if they can go one of the recycling bins. I think the other thing that Mark was just saying Councillor Whitting was just saying is that I mean if you get the chance to go to the where we send our waste to burn that is a very interesting site to visit and it's well worth taking that opportunity to go up and see that. Thank you that's about it. Thank you very much indeed for that. They do do open days of the energy from waste plants and they are advertised so it would be it is a very fascinating trip. Yes they do Mark thank you thank you for that. A few years ago when we first started the recycling the council produced one of these I don't know whether you can see it. It's like a little wheel and it's got an indicator of what you put in in your recycling what you put in your waste what you know but I think something like this probably might not be cheap to reproduce again but it was just I keep all sorts of memorabilia but that was just one thing that I kept that I just found that but things have certainly changed since this was this was produced things are changing all the time but you know it's been a learning curve for us all but I think once we once we do get to grips with this I'm sure I'm sure residents will I know there's issues with with space for bins you know when you live in the town centres and things like that but issues like that that are are are overcome right we've also got was it was it it's been next yes sir Barry I'm going to come to Ben and I'm going to come to our officers to sum up and hopefully they'll pick up any points following that if you're okay with that Barry yeah Councillor Green yes thank you very much sir so we can be quite definite about how this is is working out I mean we we do know and I think Councillor Whitson already alluded to it but in terms of the black bin waste for the first quarter of this year in contrast doing a year-on-year comparison of the first quarter of 2023 we know that we are up for sure over 200 tons and that's obviously that's quite a lot that's there's the website the measure of things where you can compare weights you know that's over three times the weight of the Space Shuttle believe it or not I just want to seek reassurance from Councillor Baker that that he's comfortable with that predominantly and in the main going off for incineration I think that first blush that doesn't feel environmentally friendly to me and then I think the other aspect is of course the the remedial bin collections you know where we have gotten it wrong we've sent out the bin lorries again obviously that's got a direct financial cost to the taxpayer that's got an environmental cost as well in terms of emissions and carbon I think these are diesel bin lorries if I'm right and I suppose just a broader comment is just you know if the private sector you know was actually tackling this issue the last thing it would do was actually to make the service more difficult for its customers because they would just move to another service where it was simpler I think rather than it being top-down state-driven in that kind of ideal world so to speak what you'd be seeing ideally is rather than this profusion of different coloured bins you'd have one bin and innovation technological progress would actually sort out the filtering at the other end and the separation and I suppose really it's just to reflect on the fact that you know bins as a topic certainly you know during that whole spell of the previous previous administration Councillor Dobson remembers it well you know bins were very rarely mentioned I think and certainly not missed bin collections either I mean certainly we do seem to be talking about it rather a lot now thank you. Yes I think you're quite right I think it was inevitable Ben that black bin waste was going to increase it does seem a shame to hear that you know if in doubt juggle it in the black bin you know when we're trying to increase the recycling rates as well so you know but you say with the learning curve and knowing what we're going to be able to educate the public saying what can you put in what bin hopefully the waste in the black bins won't be quite as high as what you know potentially could be. Councillor Rhys Baker. Thank you Chairman I think I can come back on all but one of the questions that have been asked and I also I'm sat here listening to the conversation and I'm remembering the anniversary event that was held the other week and looking at some of the newspaper clippings up around about the original roll out of recycling I've snapped a few photos of those there are some ironic parallels to what we're going through today so I think I've got all these questions can this come back to committee to scrutinise how it went absolutely I think that is a key part of what this committee does there is no policy within environment that will ever be finished I don't think we need to constantly review and see how we can improve it there was a question I think from yourself Mr Chairman what will we do around one or two items of contamination will there be opportunities to remove that one item to allow the bin to be emptied we are taking a common sense approach we are not going to penalise our residents on well meaning mistakes that don't materially impact the contents of the bin obviously that's not going to extend to things like nappies clothes food waste that it can't that is much more significant contamination if there's a couple of crisp packets in an otherwise good bin I see no reason why that should cause the rejection of an entire bin for much met for some of the reasons that Councillor Green has alluded to we don't want to send those wagons out it's a waste of operative time it's a waste of diesel it's a waste of carbon emissions the one question I can't answer is Councillor Dobson's first question but I'm pretty certain Kay will be able to get to that just as I come back Councillor Dobson's second question or statement wish cycling does need re-educating absolutely there's a lot of people who are doing their best they want to recycle and a lot of stuff that ends up in our mixed dry recycling is simply this is plastic it shouldn't go in bin black bin bad silver bin good and they're doing it for the best reasons however there are certain types of plastic because plastic degrades as you recycle it if it's already a very low quality plastic it cannot be recycled the general rule of thumb that I would go for if you can easily scrunch it up in one hand stick it in the black bin yes you might pick up one or two bits that technically could have gone into the silver bin but you're doing better by our waste streams to put the majority of stuff that you can screw up easily in one hand into the bin and as Councillor Baxter has said we have got leaflets coming through there are also further stickers coming along for certain groups who perhaps are struggling with this more than others pushing that re-education these indexes these indices I think is the plural of what goes in what bin and they can get stuck under the bin lid we do not want to penalise residents who are trying their best to follow the rules this is not a zero tolerance approach and I'm glad that Councillor Whittington has noticed a gradual ratchet we are slowly improving over cycles we're not taking that big two-footed leap space for bins is being constantly reviewed that is something that we are in constant contact with the Lincolnshire Waste Partnership about I'm also in contact with people like Councillor Morgan to find bespoke solutions in certain areas I know in one area around Bourn I've managed to secure a massive great big purple lidded bin because it was a block of flats they had space that they could put a large purple lidded bin for all of the residents rather than 35 purple lidded bins so if you are aware of these issues in your wards please let me know every case is reviewed on its merits 200 tonnes of additional waste when you think of the thousands of tonnes that we collect I prefer to talk in terms of percentages it's more of a sensible approach rather than raw figures and I would point out that this is being diverted from our recyclable waste contaminated waste if an entire wagon load gets contaminated it can be rejected at the transfer station or rejected at the recycling plant and then it goes and gets sent off for incineration anyway a small increase in our residual waste stream is anticipated because people are putting things in the right bin that waste should always have been in that black bin it's just we haven't enforced that rules over years and years and years I don't believe the private sector comparison is applicable simply because this is an obligation based on national legislation we don't operate as a profit making company this council has at times tried to and it hasn't worked out very well I would say that we are meeting our standards on our obligations rather than on ease of use we've already accepted that this is more tricky you've heard Kay say that it is more tricky we accept that that's why we're putting money and time and people into education yes we do seem to be talking about missed bins a lot our success rate our emptying rate is in excess of 99% I wasn't here before May last year I can't comment on how it was discussed or not before but I accept the point that certain people are talking about it a lot thank you very much what I find about frustrating with the space for the bins is is that when this came forward with the County Council were bringing this forward for us places like Cherry Willingham it's got small bins half the size of the bins that we have I asked the question about you know why can't we have them for our residents we're told we couldn't so you know I just I just find that sort of thing frustrating you know how other other councils can have those smaller bins and yeah yeah please do yeah because I know because I've seen that I've seen the bins at Cherry Willingham the you know the practically half the size that that we have anyway I'm aware that we've had a good debate on this item I knew it was going to be probably the one on the on the agenda that would we would have the most debate on so I'm going to come to Kate to sum up if you would I've just before you do Kate just one last one last any any other comments no okay please thank you just to answer the question about the paper and its its destination when it goes to the mill so it's taken to a transfer station our crews take it to the transfer station where it's deposited and it's then booked and hauled and that process is paid for and organised by Lincolnshire County Council so I was trying to find it while we were talking they have provided me some information on it before about how that process is more kind of economically viable and how it's better for the environment but I can't find them at the minute so what I'll do is I'll speak to Rachel and see if she can get some more information for tonight's briefing if that's okay just on the specifics of that but they they take responsibility for it and organise it but the bulking and hauling is is a better way of doing it and that process of taking it to the mill it's just cleaner recycling it means that the products that that's created at the end of it are much better they can be recycled again and again and and overall it's a much cleaner better recycling process but I'll try and get you the specifics and get them found out for you okay thank you very much indeed Graham just was a very very quick comment yeah quick quick question actually and I welcome the the comments and the answers that we've had I thought that was very interesting debate actually so obviously we'll see what happens in June just a quick technical question though which a resident asked me to to to raise we used to offer larger bins for households of five and above given that more and more is going into the black bin are we going to again I mean we used to really discourage people from taking a larger black bin but it seems to me that that might be quite useful these days given that more and more people are being told in defaults stick things in the black bin is that practice that we still discourage or are we or are we acknowledging the fact that more is going into the black bin and obviously larger households generate larger waste particularly if they've got children etc etc yeah just a quick technical question thanks okay was your answer thank you I think kind of twofold answer to that firstly in terms of the household size if you have a large household we do have a process in place where we can work through that we can look at your household we can look at your bin capacity and we can offer that based on your household size so if there's too many people and you feel that any of your bins aren't enough we you can contact us about that and we will work with you on a individual basis to assess your household needs we want you to have the right capacity to dispose of your waste and so if there's any specific issues around that please let us know and we'll address it in terms of offering more residual that that black bin space we actively would discourage that we really want you to firstly be reducing the waste that you produce and then secondly you know if you are producing it we want it to be able to be recycled so again I put the same offer in if you've got households who are specifically struggling with capacity and that black bin we have a whole team of waste advisors who can work with those households to to help them understand if it's a capacity issue if it's you know if it's a specific issue to the type of waste that they're producing and there's always going to be there's always going to be cases where they may need a specific bin they may need bigger bins more capacity but as opposed to a one size fits all approach I would say that we would look at that on a household basis because ideally we want to encourage and educate and work with our residents to to be producing as little waste as possible especially in that residual vein but I don't think there's a one size fits all approach to that and if people are struggling we need to to really look at why but if they do really genuinely need that capacity and there's potentially a medical need a really large family we'll take that into account and we will provide the capacity that is required for that size of household. Okay thank you very much indeed for that now I did want to move on Harish has indicated he wishes to speak just to reiterate that there is an all members brief in the ceiling between six and seven pm so another opportunity there for asking a quick question as well I think I'm going to give Harish the very very last word on this and then we're going to move on Harish. Thank you Mr Chairman it's just a request Mr Chairman as there will be a list of some kind of leaflet produced for what goes on in each of the bin remember in Stanford or probably some in other places as well we have got pink bin that is a bag that are being used instead of black bins yeah can we make one especially if we've got quite a lot of residents living on their own and have got those pink bags so that they get to exactly what to put in those pink bags. Rhys did you want to come on that point or not? But then Harish doesn't have the last word Mr Chairman I believe literature already exists only it was part of our targeted messaging system so yes we appreciate that non bin collections exist thank you. Sorry Harish you didn't get the last word in mate alright ok well the recommendation is to know the contents of the report and the revised action plan for the introduction of the contaminated monitoring process for the dry mixed recycling waste stream. All those know the report? Now then folks before we go on to agenda I number 12 just looking at the time would you like a quick 5 minute comfort break I think we've got time to the way that we've got the we've just got the twin stream one done which I thought would be the time consuming one a quick 5 minute comfort break are you all ok with that happy with that yeah ok or back here by a couple of minutes to 4 back here 5 past 4 is that ok ok right we'll make a start back then if that's ok right well have you had a good comfort break and we're going to move on to agenda item number 12 which is the environment act 2021 update and I believe that's Councillor Reece Baker cabinet member is going to introduce that. Thank you Mr Chairman another holding report I'm afraid a few updates but obviously time scales could shift time scales could slip and these 5 weeks won't provide us any further clarity we are looking at the implementation of aspects of the environment act 2021 we had one recently that members will be aware of it made the national news called simpler recycling which wasn't quite as simple when you dug into the service extended product responsibility and the deposit return schemes in 2023 in July Defra announced that the extended product extended producer responsibility payments would be deferred from October 2024 to October 2025 there have been no further notable EPR updates since this announcement and this refers to manufacturers of waste becoming responsible for it in a more circular fashion the deposit return scheme which apparently my dad remembers returning bottles back for a couple of pence back in the day has received a more recent announcement which came in April 2024 when Defra announced that the introduction of the deposit return scheme would be delayed from an original start date of October 2025 to a revised go live date of October 2027 and this proposed plan revolves around a three phased approach which includes establishing the deposit management organisation because we need another acronym the DMO and a graduated roll out of the scheme so as we can see that just time frames are being moved based on the complexity and the ambition of what's been announced the most significant area of change was announced by Defra on the 9th of May it confirmed the details of the simpler recycling reforms key areas of change included the introduction of a mandatory weekly food waste collection for commercial and domestic premises a core set of standard recyclables collected at curbside and the introduction of soft plastic and micro film collections timelines vary for this with commercial food waste collections mandated from the 31st of March 2025 domestic food waste collections and core recycling collections mandated by 31st of March 2026 and soft plastics and microfilms by 31st of March 2027 so a key area of this change is that commercial food waste collections all non household premises will be required to present food waste residual waste and dry recyclables separately by the 31st of March 2025 SKDC's commercial waste service already offers separate residual and dry recycling collections the mandated food waste collections cover businesses with 10 or more full time equivalent staff and they do include schools and hospitals micro firms defined as those of having less than fewer than 10 employees will be required to conform to the changes by the 31st of March 2027 and our initial analysis has indicated that less than 4% of the current customer base meets the criteria for 2025 food waste collection deadline as our customers are predominantly micro firms the report contains a synopsis of the timelines for the various projects highlights key deadlines for changes as they're laid out I do want to put on the record that we are not anticipating yet another bin I've seen a lot of stuff of that and residents are quite rightly concerned that there will be yet another 240 litre bin that they need to find space for that is not the case as Peterborough City Council have rolled out quite successfully you have a couple of caddies I can show members photos of those if they are interested and it's been rolled out in a lot of different regions across the country for a long long time as I've already given members a full breakdown on some of the information about Simpler Recycling I would ask that you refer to those for any specific technical questions but I'm happy to take any questions that you have with the rest of the report thank you Mr Chairman. Bruce thank you very much indeed and there's a lot of information in this report if members want to refer to it the deposit return scheme well that's how I got my pocket money when I was a little lad taking my dad's beer bottles back to the pub yeah he used to keep me going in sweets for for quite a while maybe not that my dad used to drink a lot mind of course okay any any comments on this Gloria yeah showing your age one commenter will make in Birmingham where my son lives instead of having an extra caddy they have a half insert in the top of the bin maybe that might be something that we as a council could look at rather than an extra caddy or something like that it's just an insert like you have in your freezer baskets and things like that so that might be something to look into yeah please please do raise that again in the in the future at gloria you know near the time Mark thanks thanks chairman and I can also remember when we were lads and skilling together we used to go in the hedgerows and pick up all the bottles you might not remember that Mr Chen but I do I mean to go up to the shop in Skellington didn't we anyway but that shows out that does show our age but that is the deposit positive return scheme looking at the report the one thing that I'm really really pleased about is the on garden waste it won't be a free service because that was always massive elements of risk that we had was potentially that could cost us millions of pounds a year as a council if we had to do that so I'm really pleased that we'll still be able to charge for that in terms of in terms of the curbside waste collections I know we did a pilot project for this a number of years ago and I think we had a couple of vehicles and we own I think we did about was it about five six percent of the whole district and that's really my question because on the numbers on table one on page one hundred it's looking like you know if we did have this to do this service potentially this is this talks about one vehicle and I'm just wondering if one vehicle is going to be enough based on the fact that when we did the trial we had two vehicles doing a smaller percentage of the whole district and we were at capacity so it's just some it's just it's just those numbers I think we might need because actually thinking that we're going to do a weekly collection across the whole district I don't is one vehicle going to be enough thank you okay thank you for that I'm going to come to Kay and then I've got Paul on me on my list as well so Kay would you like to come back on that thank you just just a point of clarification on that table one it only it only relates to commercial food waste so we're just looking at the the deadline so around commercial it's it's due to come in next year for the the firms that aren't the micro firms but I think the summary is kind of saying that we won't even though it's only one vehicle we don't actually have any space at the depot at the minute till the new depot is for the domestic side I think we estimated around 13 vehicles yeah okay thank you very much sir and again Mr Chair and I'm guessing again the issue is going to be the depot because at the moment I know the depots full and Council Bacon knows the depots full and if we could have another yeah so so everything now potentially could predicate on getting in the depot there because without the depot potentially we're stuck with a capacity issue yeah thank you Mark. Council Paul Ward thank you well first of all I'm far too young to remember returning bottles we did the trials on the food waste a few years ago I mean it's probably they probably the caddies have been lost I've still got my caddies actually but I suppose we'd still have to issue new ones because I suppose most people would have lost them but we did quite extensive trials didn't we and we issued the caddies then I mean I've still got mine but I would imagine most people probably haven't so we'd probably still have to issue new caddies yeah but so it's not really a question sorry those caddies weren't they like a green bin oh they are okay I'm getting mixed up with the green bins which the small green bins were because I've got I've got a couple of spuds in that we're ready for our spud in the pot competition which is actually is a how we United on the on the 13th of July if anybody would like to come on I'll just a quick look for that one well I've got the opportunity okay is there any further comments on that before we move on to the next item is nothing to be noted all those won't note the report okay we'll swiftly move on we've still got some items to discuss so thank you for that and thank you thank you for who we put k for producing that report for us k thank you kindly agenda item number 13 which is a verbal report from reese and it is for the rewilding process so a verbal report please councillor reese baker thank you mr chairman with any luck this will be the last time you have to hear from me today I know you're all bored of my voice in may before I move on with the ideal direction of travel I do want to put on records an apology that this council has made and reiterates today in may a community wildflower meadow at douglas road in market deeping was in error cut by our street scene operatives the area had been developed and maintained by the local lions club following this error and sincere in sincere apology has been issued to the lions for the distress that this has caused both their organization and the wider community by way of apology our street scene manager met with the president of the lions club at douglas road in order to agree remedial actions as a result he arranged for our team to clear away the clippings to ensure that the wildflower meadow has the best chance of re-establishing itself a commitment remains to further provide any assistance which may be required in the future to ensure that this area is fully restored to its natural glory in the shortest possible time frame council officers have investigated the circumstances around this unfortunate incident and as a result we have tightened up our internal procedures to prevent further mistakes like this happening again both myself and councilor baxter immediately called the the lions and offered our own personal apologies and we are remaining committed to any any further steps that we need to do to put this right we remain committed to moving on for our future rewilding ambitions i would like to take this opportunity to provide just a brief update on the council's wider vision for rewilding across the district we've already got some fantastic examples of biodiversity projects being run both by parish councils town councils local charities and as portfolio holder one of the things i've been very keen on is that our ground maintenance plans and our ground maintenance teams include a wide range of interventions that will help us fight the impacts of climate change mitigate changes in weather conditions reverse biodiversity loss but also strengthen our communities give us nice places to sit give us nice places to just be rewilding appropriate and i want to emphasize that appropriate areas this is not me going around with 50 000 poppy seeds and chucking them out of my car window rewilding appropriate areas of our open spaces is one initiative which i believe will go a long way to help we're at an early point in this journey but we have established a working group to identify further opportunities for rewilding on council owned land with two new areas identified in born it's important that this work is started in earnest now we've got to get these seeds in ahead of growing season for next year and i also need to make sure that we've got the council resources equipment and staffing in place to make sure that any scheme can be maintained appropriately it's no good chucking stuff on the floor and just hoping that it stays until kingdom come we need to make sure that any intervention we put in is ecologically and economically sustainable we want to make sure that these plants have the best opportunity to thrive and we want to make sure that the areas that we've selected with good communication good openness and transparency are actually appropriate for the communities that they are in we're not talking about taking away municipal land or amenity land that kids play football on these are corners tucked out of the way that are at the moment not meeting their true potential any impact on the council's budget decision will need to be fed into our budget setting process for the next financial year and it is envisaged at this time that the initial seed money forgive the pun will be met from the climate action fund i hope that the committee will support myself and officers in these endeavors i look forward to bringing a formal update in the near future once we've got a little born meat on the bones thank you mr chairman councilor racemaker thank you very much indeed for all your comments the the apology that you've that you've made on with regarding that item i know you said that was the last possibly last time you might be speaking that today time permitting race i'm just thinking under any other other business would you like the opportunity to to um just to give a mention about the action group that from last week if you will do that under any other business time permitting though that is that is race okay um any comments or questions on this item councilor ben green yes thank you very much i was just wondering where no mo may sits in all of this obviously um sorry ben i misheard that yes i was just wondering where no mo may as an initiative sits with all of this is this something that we're thinking about incorporating at some future date some future may obviously we've just had a may that's been and gone um so it's a bit bit difficult in may 23 when we were concluding the shape of the council to come to to think about not mowing the lawns um in an organized way but is that something on the radar is that something that's being considered by the administration just want to hear a bit more on that thank you councilor baker we may sorry sorry i saw an opportunity and i took it um no mo may is actually more complicated than i ever ever ever envisaged and i've sat down and had two three hour long meetings with karen whitfield about this um it is an ambition of mine to get no mo may working in the district in a way that is appropriate for the district the challenges that we face are firstly south castilian district council is not actually responsible for as much green space as you would initially think a lot of our mowing is done on behalf of Lincolnshire and we we mow on their schedule and a lot of our mowing is in in small little packets and bits and pieces to one side the second point is that where we do own larger parcels of land places like Wyndham Park obviously we have to have a appropriate mowing regime for the variety of people who will use that amenity we need to make sure dog walkers can use it we need to make sure that kids can run around in it we need to make sure that our bees are supported and that's not to say that there's no ambition to put these sections in there but it would be properly signed properly outlined and smaller areas of them thirdly actually no mo may is the easy bit it's first mo June that's the problem and having a series of equipment that can actually handle the vastly increased biomass that we would need to deal with it's not an insurmountable problem and particularly if we are very targeted in our areas and rewilding does feed into this it's certainly an ambition of this council to do something appropriate but some council simply can't do it there was a council up in Scotland and forgive me I can't remember which of the Shires it was but they found that no mo may actually added nine hundred thousand pounds onto their budget for mowing simply because with that amount of sun with that amount of of rain the further equipment that they would need was extremely high and I'm not saying that that would necessarily be a barrier here but as I've said in in the verbal updates the budgets considerations have to be taken well in advance we are looking at this and it remains my ambition to have it in an appropriate form around SK but this will not be taking people's football pitches from them it will not be taking Wyndham Park from them it will not be all of the verges because we're simply not responsible for them. Yeah thank you very much for that Rhys. Another problem is probably a litter if litter is not picked regularly in the long grass it gets lost in the long grass then when you cut it get any coke cans in there you shred it the mows will shred it and then you know there's of course a lot of razor blades. Just to clarify that our mowing regime our policy does state that the area should be litter picked before anything was cut and it's mainly a health and safety issue if you go over a coke can other brands are available with a mower and then a child pulls a slide tackle in the same area they're going to slice that leg right open so we do endeavor to pick litter pick first. Absolutely but what I'm saying is you when you've got long grass you don't always you don't always see all the litter and all the coke cans and they say when a coke can gets shredded you know it's like razor blades for the kiddies and it's just you know it's just something that Wyndham's a safe cover. Gloria you wanted speed didn't you? Just a question will local councils be consulted when you do this perhaps work together with areas? Castle Baker. More than consulted I am encouraging them to take part because most of our green space isn't owned by SK it's often owned by the parishes or local charities that's certainly the case in Bourne there aren't many parcels of land at all. We are encouraging our parish and town councils to mimic this policy we can't enforce it we can't direct them to but we would provide expertise we would provide equipment and again climate action fund could provide proper seed money for that to be moved forward where we are committing to rewilding land in a parish or in a town so alluding to the Bourne sites that we've identified we will of course be speaking with the town and parish councils first we're also going to have a large consultation event we're going to have communication going out to local residents not only so that they know what's going on but they might want to get involved there's a lot of people and it's great for kids getting them planting bushes cacti hedges planting trees planting flowers tilling the soil getting their hands mucky it's certainly something I remember as a child and we want to turn this into a community event not just a pretty little ornament to look at from afar. OK thank you. Deputy Vice Chairman Paul Martin. Thank you just as a point I have six unadopted open spaces parcels of land in my ward they're actually owned essentially by developers and we don't as a policy take these parcels of land on now obviously due to maintenance costs and such like so it's left to the developers to maintain them cut them and etc if you were going to do this kind of thing in my area it's an orthogram from you would need to talk to the developers and that's something I'd highly recommend you know they seem bizarrely for a developer they seem quite helpful when it comes to these areas I'm sure you know if you spoke to them we could do something with that some of these parcels of land are quite large. Paul thank you do you want to come back on that please. One of the parcels of land that we've identified in Bourn is exactly as you describe we're trying to figure out who in lots of deed transfers now finally owns it but you're absolutely right and it helps these developers contribute to the biodiversity net gain targets so it is a win-win-win situation which is so rare in British politics completely take that on board thank you. OK we'll take one more comment from Councillor Ben Green and then we'll move on to the next ask so Ben. Yeah thank you very much chair I suppose you know there's one aspect to this where we're trying to beautify areas you know with nice wildflowers etc I mean what I would say is that there's an enormous value just in scrub and very rapidly you see an effect where you'll have hawthorn returning and then oaks bursting through the hawthorn and very rapidly then after that nightingales etc so you get a real wealth of wildlife just from actually what looked like quite superficially messy areas so that's well worth bearing in mind and then it's more about actually fencing those areas off and predominantly safeguarding against deer intrusion amongst others other species that can cause real chaos and mayhem for any small saplings so I think that should also be part of the puzzle more comment than anything thank you. Thanks for that Ben all those in favour of noting and thanking Rhys for the verbal report thank you kindly the unanimous. OK we'll move on to the next item item number 14 update on the public sector decarbonisation scheme phase 3c and the sustainability and climate change manager Serena Brown to introduce first please. Thank you chair I thought I'd give our cabinet member a little rest of his voice and introduce this item. So following the announcement made at cabinet on 14th of May I'm happy to share the news with the committee of our successful bid into the public sector decarbonisation scheme phase 3c environment committee have requested a written report with some further details. I will state that this is right at the the beginning stages of our of our project with the intention to complete our final system and have it installed by March 2026. Some key details the grant funding offer is for a total of 3 million 587 and 500 pounds which including the council's co-funding contribution brings the project total to just over 4 million pounds. The centre obviously is very energy hungry and last year had extremely significant utility costs of over 770k for gas and electricity so any efforts that can be made to reduce that should be made. We have made some significant investments already to reduce energy consumption on site so new pool covers have recently been installed. We've also completed a number of lighting projects to upgrade lighting to LED and all of which will bring down the energy consumption of the building. Our intention for this project is to install a new low carbon heating system that will replace the existing heating system which is a number of boilers and combined heat and power units and this is quite a significant investment in the centre which will significantly reduce the energy that is used and help to stabilise utility costs. It will also by switching the energy stream from gas to electricity significantly reduce the carbon emissions from the centre and putting the centre on a track to be a net zero building and providing an extremely significant contribution to our council net zero targets as well which are, as the committee is aware I'm sure, at least 30% by 2030. So as I've said the project is very much at the beginning stages but we are working very hard on the background to get things moving on it. We've got a number of agreed milestones that we are required to meet as a term and condition for the funding and the aim is to have the upgraded system in place for March 2026. I believe that provides a little bit of a synopsis of the project but if any of the committee have any further questions I'd be happy to answer them or direct them to the cabinet member as appropriate. Thank you. Thank you for that Serena. I believe that yourself and also one or two other officers went to great lengths to secure that funding for us didn't you? I'd love to say thank you to yourself and your colleagues that actually managed to achieve that because it really was something special that you've done for us. A big, big thank you for that and say to your colleagues. I can't remember who the colleagues were but thank you to you all. Any questions please. Councillor Whittington, Mark Whittington. Just the wrong one. Yeah again, yes thank you. I'd like to reiterate your congratulations to Serena and the team. This is fantastic. I mean when you actually sort of look at the impact it's going to have on our, you know, going to help us to achieve a quarter of our 30% reduction. That's quite a big chunk towards us. So I very much welcome this and just many congratulations to everybody concerned. Thank you for adding that. No further comments. Can we, recommendations that the committee notes through the updates on the public sector decarbonisation scheme phase 3c grant funding offer to update the existing heating systems at Grantham Mills Leisure Centre. All those, note the report. Thank you Godly, you and Annals. Serena, thank you very much indeed. Ok, that's item number 14. Just two to go. The work programme that you have there in front of you. The work programme as you'll see for the next meeting which is on the schedule for the 7th of October. It's starting to get lengthy. There's going to be one or two items to squeeze into it. I think Kay did you want to add, or was it Serena, sorry, I'd like to add an item to that. Thank you Chair. Hot off the last agenda item. We'd like to propose our annual carbon emissions report is included in the agenda. That should be ready by October and we'd be happy to bring that to the committee and discuss that in more detail. Major note to that Serena, thank you very much. It should be hopefully in a minute so we'll include that on. Any members, anything they want to put on the agenda, just God let me know, ok. Somehow we'll get something on the agenda. We've done it before, we'll do it again if you so wish. Harish, yes. Can I suggest something Mr Chairman? I believe with regards to the developers, you know, after they finish with the building sites and looking after the open spaces, I believe they are obliged to look after the estate, the open spaces in that for 10 years. Then after that they do hand over to the district council or the county councils, together with the roads, so that the roads become adopted. I wonder if you can look into that, is that still valid or is it still in operation? I'm talking about 20 years ago. I don't know the answer to your question Harish. I don't quite know how we would put that on an agenda item. Maybe it's a question that we could ask somebody to get back here to give you the answer. Would that be ok? That would be fine if one of the officers could find out about it because I believe they have got certain obligations to look after the site for 10 years. Can I ask Councillor Baker if you'd look into that and get back? Is that ok? I'll explore whether it sits within the portfolio here or if it's more a planning issue under the enforcement group. I think it's the latter but I will explore. That's excellent. Thank you very much. Ok with that Harish? Thank you very much. Right ok if there's no other items on that, any other business. As I mentioned to Rhys a few moments ago we've got time for Rhys to give us his thoughts and his updates on the action group that we held last week via Teams. I just think it might be helpful Rhys for the committee and if anybody wants to contribute to it in any way so you have an opportunity now to raise that item under any other business. Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you colleagues. I won't keep you long. The climate action group is exactly what it says on the tin. It is an action focused group whereby we're not navel gazing, we're not criticising policy, we're not coming up with new motions, we're getting out into our communities with things that matter. A group of about 12 of us, a number of people provided apologies and I'm thankful for that, discussed things as wide ranging as the financing of drainage boards, communications with drainage boards and environmental festival, canal society reports, pollution levels in Grantham, structures to encourage children to walk to school, Active England, Active Travel, Sport England, Cycling and Cycleways, Kids Cycle Safety Week and even prompted the leader of the council to remind us all that there is an opportunity for those with the appropriate lycra to sign up to a bike ride from Grantham to Belton House which I will send any interested member or any member with a camera and a sense of humour details on at their request. It is an opportunity for us to be a doing council. We agree on so much and this is an opportunity to come together and go do you know what, how can we get this done for the good of our residents. Membership is completely open, if you wish to be included on the next one let me know. I will forward minutes as a matter of course to the Environment Committee if they so wish. The next minutes are currently being written up and sorted from my shorthand. If there's any questions happy to take them but I think Mr Chairman I'll take them after the meeting so that those who wish to go can. That's absolutely okay so if anyone wants to put any questions to Rhys on that please do contact him after the meeting and before I close the meeting can I just say thank you to our officers, fabulous efforts, we always get beyond the environments and really really appreciate it. A big big thank you and as I say a warm welcome to Louise again to our team, nice to have you on board. Just also want to say to the members that have come along today, thank you for doing this in a really really good spirit and it has been today so I'm really really grateful for that. You know I've always said that the overview and scrutiny committee is here, it's our committee, it's not my committee it's your committee. You know it's a committee where we can all get together hopefully in a comradery manner, you know that we can raise issues. If you want to know anything about this committee, if you want to put anything on to you, just contact me, it's all you've got to do okay, it's as simple as that. So a big big thank you all for your contributions today. Thanks to my Deputy Vice Chairman today, I hope you've enjoyed being up here keeping with your company Paul, so a big thank you for that. And thank you to all and I'll close the meeting at 20 minutes to 5. Thank you very much indeed. [BLANK_AUDIO]