Transcript

My name is Derek Beer and I'm chairman of the licensing committee itself. A few formalities to go through first, if I may. First, we'd like to elect a chairman for the meeting. I'd like to propose Councillor Beer to chair the meeting. And seconder. Happy to second. Thank you very much indeed. If I just go through the introduction of who we've heard, no we haven't. Well, I'm Derek Beer and on my right we have... Councillor Craig Monks, Bearminster Area Water, out west. Good afternoon, I'm Councillor Emma Parker and I represent Puddletown and Lower Winterbournes. Thank you. We now go to the officers of the council. First of all, go to the committee clerk. Hello, I'm Elaine Tibble of the Democratic Services. Hello, I'm Phil Crowther, I'm the subcommittee's legal advisor and a colleague here who's just observing. Hannah, who's observing this afternoon, thank you. I'll now ask you to introduce yourselves, Elaine. Thank you, chair. My name is Eileen Powell, I'm the licensing team leader and I'm the report author. And over to you. Would you like to introduce yourselves as well? Thank you. I'm Dejane Morrow and I am one of Sounds Beautiful co-festival directors. Hello, my name is Stephen Norris and I'm also the co-founder of Sounds Beautiful director and also the license holder for the festival. Good afternoon, Gareth Gosling from Dorset Police, alcohol and licensing. Yeah, good afternoon, I'm Darren Lorraine, I'm one of the environmental health officers for Dorset Council. And I'm Vanessa Gibard, one of the environmental health officers. Thank you very much. Just to remind people that the meeting is live streamed, so it's on camera and recorded. Can everyone, if they wish to speak, speak through the chair? Everyone, without doubt, will have equal opportunity to question each other or put their point. So don't worry, we'll make everything we can to make it fair and reasonable for you. At the end of the meeting, we'll retire and consider everything we've heard and let you know our decision within five working days. There's more to tell you about that later, but that's how we'll go. Do you have any questions on the procedure at all? Anybody? No? OK, thank you. In that case... Sorry, do we have any apologies, please? We do, we have apologies from Councillors Shortell and Weller, and they're substituted by Councillors Monks and Parker. Thank you. And any urgent business? No. Sorry. Oh, absolutely, yeah. And members, do you have any declarations of interest?

• No. - No, thank you very much. Cheers, right, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. So this is a hearing to consider an application from Sounds Beautiful Limited for a new premises licence for a festival at Gaunt's House, which is close to Wimborne. The application is to cover one event per year that will happen every year in either June or July, with the first event starting in about three weeks' time on the 27th of June. The latest event management plan says there will be between 500 and 1,500 people on site. This application is for a four-day festival with live music from 11am to 11pm, and recorded music from 9am to 2am. The alcohol sales, you might note, were included twice in your report at paragraph 2.3. So just for clarification, the alcohol sales are... and I've just lost it... 12 o'clock in the morning till 2300 on a Thursday, 12 till 02 on a Friday, 12 till 02 on a Saturday, and 12 to 2200 on the Sunday. That is in your report, there's just a duplication. There have been three representations from responsible authorities stating that more information is required, and that the EMP and the NMP provided are inadequate. Updated versions were supplied on the 2nd of May and again this morning. Two of the responsible authorities are present and will update you as to whether sufficient information has now been supplied. There has been a representation from the parish council asking that all music is finished by 11pm. We have received no responses to any of these representations. I haven't attempted to put out a set of suggested conditions within the report, because normally you would take them from the operating schedule. But if you note on the operating schedule, the suggested conditions were that the event management plan would be submitted and approved by the SAG 12 weeks before the event. We are now three weeks before the event, and from the representations this has not happened and there is not sufficient time for it to happen. The hearing for this application has been delayed in order for the subcommittees to be formed by the licensing committee following the election of the new council. But this delay was minimal and under normal circumstances this hearing would have been heard about the 23rd of May, so only a couple of weeks ago. Section 7 of the report sets out the options that are available to the subcommittee after they have considered all the information contained in the report, the written representations and anything that is said at this committee. And finally I'd just like to draw your attention to paragraph 9.44 from the guidance which says that it's imperative that you ensure the factors that form the basis of your determination are limited to the consideration of the promotion of the licensing objectives and you're expected to come to your determination based on an assessment of the evidence on both the risks and benefits either for or against making the determination. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Eileen. Members, do you have any questions for Eileen? Not this time. Do you have any questions at all for Eileen on what she's presented at the moment? I don't have questions as such, but I do have comments on what was presented. So if I may, we just want to make sure that everyone's aware that we actually submitted our event management plan because we're aware that it sounds like we haven't given much time. I'm trying to find the date now. The 31st of October 2023 was when we actually submitted all our documents and we were assigned to Councillors Karen Poole and Ian who were to give us, because it's our first application for a license, we were given them to help advise us along the way and since then we've had a back and forth of documentation which is constantly needed updating and we have worked really hard to try and get these documents to the people that needed them. They haven't actually made it in quite a few cases to the places that we need and we actually personally had to send them ourselves. And what else did I want to say? The SAG meeting we have never been invited to. We weren't aware that this was supposed to happen. We've been waiting to be invited to a SAG meeting and we haven't had any such invite. So just to let you know that that's the situation we've been in. So when we were told on the 31st of October by Ian that we would be invited in due course and we haven't been since then, which was nearly many, many months ago. Thank you. Microphones, they'll catch us out all the way through the afternoon. Thank you. Thank you for that. Obviously these things work through a process. I don't know if Eileen would like to respond to that comment. Thank you, Chair. I'm aware that the documentation was supplied back in October. I'm aware to the Safety Advisory Group and I'm aware that it was circulated. But I can't comment any further than that. I have got John Newcombe. He's available over there. He's actually the manager for the SAG. So I don't know if he wanted to make a comment. Good afternoon, Chair. Can you hear me okay? Yes. Okay, brilliant. Thank you. So I oversee the work of the Safety Advisory Group. So I'm Ian Carter's manager. Unfortunately, Ian's been off for a little over a month. He's off at the moment. He's likely to be off for another month. So I'm not entirely sure what the process has been. But Eileen's absolutely correct in as much as the documentation's been received and circulated. I believe that's primarily the basis for the representations from the Environmental Protection Team and the police in terms of missing information. So that certainly has happened. So we haven't made a representation either as a responsible authority for the licensing authority or as a Safety Advisory Group. However, I am here to answer questions and I'm available if there's any sort of queries in relation to event safety or the SAG process or suitable conditions that might safeguard or promote the four licensing objectives. So even though we haven't made a representation, I'm available as a resource to the committee should that be required. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much. Did you understand all of that? Sorry, did you hear me? I think it was the management plan that didn't get fully circulated. As far as we know, we know that a couple of people have contacted us to say that they needed it. But I think maybe the other documentation went out, maybe the application. So just to be clear. Thank you, Chair. So there are two processes at work here. So the Safety Advisory Group considers the event management plan and then the other risk assessments or any other documentation that comes in. That works kind of like in parallel with the licensing. So the licensing is done by a separate application and normally there'll be some crossover between the two, but they work separately. So the licensed application is just the application form and the plan. That is what gets sent out and that's what gets circulated. We wouldn't normally include event management plans when we send that out because there's obviously information in those event management plans about quite a lot of detail and we wouldn't want that getting out into the public domain per se. That said, all the responsible authorities had that event management plan at some point, either from November or when it was updated at the beginning of May. That is what they have based their representations on. Thank you. Members, are you okay with that? Yes. You're okay? Yep. Okay, thank you. Steve, did you need to add anything at all? No, I don't think, I think this has been a long drawn out process on all parties really. Obviously, on our part of it, we've been trying to deal with this situation since last year and dealing with certain people within the licensing team, unfortunately, they only work there a couple of days a week. So trying to get things back and forth with these advisors has been quite difficult, but we have made progress with it. We've done everything, what was needed to be dealt with. And yeah, I think we've done pretty well for what we've been up against, to be honest. And like I said, with the SAG information, we did, like I said, we received an email from Ian to say that he'll be in contact with us. And that was on the 31st or the 10th last year to say that he'll pass it around to SAG and they'll get in contact with us with a meeting. And again, we haven't heard anything from it. So yeah, I don't think there's much else that we can really add to it. If I go to, we've got Ian on screen. Would you like to say the comment at this point, Ian? Sorry, Chair. It's John Newcombe. So I'm Ian's line manager. He's off sick at the moment. So I think it's probably a good opportunity here just to set out the position of the Safety Advisory Group. So ordinarily when an event organiser comes to us, it's kind of a rubber stamp process of looking at the event management plans and feeding back in. I think it's fair to say that the plans that were presented to the SAG were not what we're used to, should we say, potentially not as comprehensive or as detailed or as explanatory as we would ordinarily expect. And the applicant's quite right. There has been quite a substantial need for assistance from the Safety Advisory Group from what I can make out. Now, I think that's partly an issue because of part-time members of staff who are obviously not available at beck and call of applicants who need an elevated assistance level, should we say. However, I am satisfied that we have fulfilled our duties in terms of giving advice to event organisers. I think if you've had the chance to review the event management plan, you'll quite easily see that it is lacking a lot of detail and it is lacking the normal level of information that we would expect to see. So there has been quite a demand on the SAG. We're not entirely convinced that this licence is safe to grant for the full capacity of 5,000. I think the event management plan does mention a cap on 1,500. We would advise that is probably quite sensible. But as we haven't made a relevant representation, I will leave that to colleagues in the noise team and the police to pick up on. But I'm satisfied that the Safety Advisory Group has assisted the applicant in as much as so far as reasonably practicable on this occasion, Chair. Thank you. Thank you very much. I ought to now come to those making representations. Do you have any questions for Aileen on the report? Now it comes over to yourselves, if you're happy, Phil. Now it comes over to yourselves to give us an outline of what you want to achieve, what you hope to achieve, and how you might hope to go about it. Tell us all as much as you can about the event, if you would. Thank you. So the capacity of the estate is actually only 3,000 max. So I don't know why it's got a 5,000 on the event management plan. So apologies for that. It would be 3,000 max. But we've actually been in negotiation with Rufus, who owns Gorns House and Richard. And it's been capped at 1,500 anyway. So that would be the maximum participants that would be allowed on site. At the moment, we've sold 300 tickets. And we have about 200 to 300 artists and crew. We have a month to go. So we expect-- capacity would not be more than 1,000 this year. We have, in detail, read the purple guide. And I think we've fully implemented all the steps. It might not be documented in such detail in the event management plan. And apologies for that, if so. But we have a professional security team on site, obviously, because there is alcohol forties protection, who are providing 24-hour security overnight. We've got up to eight security guards working at any one time. Plus, we have a steward team of about three or four or five people at any one time assisting them. We have IHCD ambulance tax to Steve Pye and John and a paramedic Raj, who will be on site. They have a bed, an ECG machine, first aid kits, two refibs, two oxygen resuscitation units, and a trauma kit. So everything that will be possibly needed in any event of any first aid given. We have a fire protection officer, and we've done a detailed fire risk assessment of the site. We've got public liability insurance, which we've taken out, which you're welcome to have a look at, which fully covers us for the events and any injury to any public during the course of that event. We've been in negotiation with Paul from the ambulance service regarding emergency routes and have been backwards and forwards to him to make sure that our emergency route is safe and accessible and quick, and we've allocated fire assembly points in negotiation with him. We have responded to, I think there was only one objection to noise that we had. That was the only objection where we had queries, but the only one we're aware of is the noise objection, which was given to us on the requirement that we respond to the questions that were asked, which we have done. We do have a noise monitor. Andy from ARD Audio, our professional sound technician, is as well used to using noise monitoring equipment, and we have offered to set up a Google noise sheet where he will monitor noise after hours, every hour, and we have a recommended, which I think is a level that has been accepted in the past on this site, which is 40 DBA at the nearest residential property, which we're quite happy to adhere to. We fully understand that two o'clock in the morning is very late. We are open to negotiation on that. Our request, I don't know, we're not used to the formalities of this meeting, so I don't know what is possible to request in this setup, but we really do request, if possible, to carry on till two on the Friday, because we have engaged a DJ who we've spent money on, who we'd very much like to have, and we will be very careful not to overstep noise limits on that night. But the Saturday night, just to be clear, it was just the Friday and Saturday we were asking till 2 a.m., but we are happy to negotiate on the Saturday if the council feel that that is too noisy, as we do understand that we do not want to annoy the public. It's not our intention, and we've gone to great effort to make the noise as contained, it's between two woodlands, as possible, so as not to disturb the public too much. Thank you very much Steve, would you like to add to that? I think Wendy-Jane's actually explained quite a lot about how we are implementing stuff around the site for our attendees and also the general public as well. I don't think there's much else I could add to that really, she's gone in quite detail with it. I think the main thing for us really is the obviously late night issue is an issue, two o'clock is quite late, but as we said we don't mind negotiating with regards to timings on the Saturday. But I believe that everything is in place, everything's ready, and whatever anyone needs or if they'd like to speak to us whenever they want, we're quite happy to talk to anyone and everyone and try and get this moving forward so we can get the agreed to go ahead. Thank you very much members, have you got any questions of what we've just heard? Sorry, I can't quite see your colleagues in the way. You made reference to the information you provided, you made reference to a few points that have been highlighted within a report submitted around numbers and safety access and things like that. I guess my question is an open one to anyone who can help me because I was not quite in line with some of the information that we've looked at, so I wonder if there's anybody who can elaborate on that from, I keep looking at the police or members that maybe help us with this, and I wonder if there's maybe a bit of time might be useful to you to clarify that amongst the people here. Thank you. Should we address that at the moment? You can start with me if you like. The only numbers that we've had available are the 500 up to 1,500 within the event management plan, that's the only, there's no mention numbers in the application form. The only time we tend to look at numbers in licensing would be if it goes over 5,000 and that's because there's different fee structures and everything, but the reason that there is this slight confusion is because it hasn't been written down anywhere yet. Okay, thank you. Just to ask about the timing on the Saturday, obviously you said you're happy for negotiation, what time would you change that timing to? I mean we would request a cut-off point of midnight, if possible. Can I just ask with some, just for sort of past history of both yourselves, have you both got experience of running an event like this? I am a musician, so I'm involved in many festivals and events, so I run choirs as well, I run a choir for people with cancer, and I organize many public events, yeah, in the past. Not to this scale though, I must add, this is the first time to this scale. Yeah, so I've also organized things in the past, I'm also a DJ as well, so I have DJs at nightclubs, so yeah, I think we both had quite a bit of experience with organizing certain situations, but again, this is the next step for us, but hence why it's like a learning process for everyone, hence we didn't know what we were coming into today, to be honest, but yeah, we've got quite an extensive knowledge of other events of what we dealt with in the past. But you can appreciate the concerns around the more detail in the noise management plans and the event management plans that are needed. Yeah, like again, it's lessons learned, so with regards to the noise management side of things, yeah, we've definitely learned some lessons along the way, but moving forward for the years after, we've learned these lessons, so we know what we're doing now for the future. Thank you very much. Thank you, just in case you're wondering what's going on, the school's educational visits today, so we hope you don't mind that's the case. Obviously those making representations have the chance to put your case in a moment, has anybody else on the legal team have any questions on what we've heard? No, do you have any questions on what you've heard from the applicants? Sorry, just slightly building upon a question raised by Councillor Parker just now, in respect of your experience coming into this, because I think that's potentially really at the heart of what we're talking about today. I'll come to the question shortly, but the reason it is such at the heart is that we encourage and work to support events, but naturally where there's learning to take place around things to do with safety, we have to make sure that we achieve a minimum standard. My question is, have you considered or had you considered employing any sort of support with regards to operations, so you know sort of an experienced operations manager perhaps with a background in events and certainly to do with the operational aspect of things? We have a few people involved, for example Roz, who is in charge of traders, runs Purify Festival and has run that for several years running, so she is someone that's had plenty of experience of running festivals, I think that's near Wimborne actually, it's for MIND. So but not, I mean a designated event manager that's had previous experience, no we haven't, so I think this is something that we've wanted to do for ourselves professionally and personally as well. So and we've certainly taken advice from Rufus and also Rowan who is at Gaunt's house as an administrator, is one of my dear friends and has run Colourfest for the past seven years, well quite a while ago he ran Colourfest at Gaunt's house for seven years and he has been a great asset to us and advising, we've actually taken on their lock up and he has given us all the pitfalls around this. So I mean formally employed, no, but taken advice certainly in detail, yes. Are you content with that response? Yes, thank you for that one. I do have a couple of other questions. So in respect to your SIA amount, naturally from a police perspective my biggest interest is to do with crime disorder and public safety. I noticed from your event management plan, and I do apologise I have not read any amendments to today's, that for me was probably a bit tight for us to have been able to take into consideration today, but from the most recent copy that I saw, it's alluded to, and you've confirmed it today, you've alluded to eight SIA at certain peak periods. I think questions could be asked around the reduction towards I think beyond 10.30 through to two o'clock I think on certain times from memory. But how did you arrive at eight being an appropriate amount to manage the whole event? Yeah, so I mean we've got a number of other volunteers who are going to be helping the team or the security. The actual security company recommended that to us on these numbers, so we've run with them on what they've suggested to us. So yeah, we've got eight on the Friday, but there will be a number of other people helping those security team out as well. And obviously they'll all be in contact with each other on a separate channel as well. Okay, can I just ask, am I correct in my understanding from, again, taking it from your EMP, that the SIA were responsible for bag searches as well as a degree of walking the grounds that was mentioned, presence within the festival, and then presumably to deal with any, and there was a mention, sorry, of the bars. That was a key area for them. And then presumably there's going to be an element of perimeter as well. How are you going to spread them out that much? I believe that with the original documentation that we were sent across, there was two bars, but there's not. There's only going to be one bar, so that's a reduction. Obviously with the amount of tickets that have been sold, there's no need to have two bars, that's for sure. And then with regards to the perimeters and the bag searches and all things like that, again, this is, we actually took the security company to the site on a number of occasions so that they were able to get the layer of the land. And we also sent them our event management plan as well. We sent them all the documentation as possible. And again, this is what they've suggested to us, that this is what they can do for us. Yeah, I mean, that's all we can suggest to you that really. They're a well capable company. They've been running for quite a while. And at the same time, they also do a lot of other festivals as well. So again, we've took their advice because they are the people within the knowledge and the know of the industry. Okay, thank you. Just two more, Chair. Otherwise, I could keep going and going, but I won't. Absolutely. Okay, so let's, can I just turn to the issue of under 16s now? So I know that there is mention within the EMP around unoccupied under 16s. Is that right? And could you elaborate on why 16 year olds are allowed in, but under 16s then have to be with somebody who's aged over 21? I believe, isn't it under 18? It's under 18. I'm sorry if that hasn't been relayed across by us, but we've got three tier tickets. So we've got under 12s, 12 and unders, which are free. We've got 18s, under 18, which must be accompanied, or everyone under 18 must be accompanied by an adult. And we have actually followed up, we've had two tickets that were bought online, which were just child tickets or a teen ticket. And I have actually personally phoned up those people to check that they weren't unaccompanied. And in one case, it was a mother just adding a child, she was going to be there. And then in another case, it was an adult trying to get in at cut price, and we cancelled his ticket. But we do follow through if there are any child tickets bought without an adult ticket with them. Everyone under the age of 18 must be accompanied by an adult could really be a 19-year-old? Technically speaking, but we would assume that they would come with their parents and not by themselves. I mean, that's something we would need advice on how to police, how would you stop a 19-year-old accompanying an 18-year-old in that situation. That's something I wouldn't have experience of, so. No problem. I think just very quickly, whilst it's my opportunity to answer questions, I think in answer to that query, I think it's really difficult, and I've not seen it done before trying to do that. I think it'd be really quite tough. Just one more, and it's not strictly related to police, but you mentioned earlier in relation to routes to hospital. Can I just ask how and who is intending to convey people, patients, potentially, to hospital? Oh, sorry. That would be our, I have to pronounce it properly, IHCD paramedic team would be there, and we have vehicles on site allocated for that task if need be. And obviously, they would gauge whether it was necessary to call an ambulance out. Okay, not strictly a question, but those vehicles, and I won't ask whether they are or not, but those vehicles would need to be CQC-accredited contractors, so it can't be any vehicle. So just be really careful on that. Get further advice from SWAST. Thank you, Chair. Nothing else. No, no questions. Thank you. [ Pause ] Because of the, some perhaps misunderstandings or whatever that have gone on over the notice, would all those involved appreciate perhaps a half-hour adjournment so you could sit together and discuss a way forward to discuss conditions or whatever that might suit all parties, or would you or is that not, are we too late for that? Would you like that opportunity to sit together and have a negotiation with us out of the room to see if you can come up with conditions that would suit all parties? It's absolutely, we'd be amenable to that. Yeah. Always more than happy to engage and support, as I stipulated earlier. I just, I don't think we would achieve it in that amount of time. I don't think we would get to a point where we could be satisfied and come to you with any degree of confidence, I think, that the licensing objectives would be met across the board in every aspect. Of the event. I don't think we could achieve that. I'll leave it to my environmental health colleagues to provide there. Would you see an advantage in having a half-an-hour chat or discussion to achieve a way forward regarding conditions? I think we would struggle to find some conditions with three weeks left of the event that would probably be appropriate at this late time. Okay, thank you very much. So perhaps not, Phil. I mean, Chair, it's obviously the committee's decision whether to adjourn to allow that to happen. You've heard the applicant say that they would appreciate that opportunity. I think Sergeant Gosling indicated he'd be willing to engage in that conversation, but had a concern about how productive that would be. It's a matter for you now to consider whether you think, sorry, whether you think that adjournment would be productive or not. My advice would be, given the applicant thinks it might be, that we ought to at least, you ought to give serious consideration to allowing that to at least be attempted. Thank you. Members, what do you feel? Well, with the applicant wishing to take the time, I see no harm in finding half an hour to see if a conversation can take place. I support that. Being that this has been in the pipeline now for quite some time, I think a lot of the issues that we have and the detail that were needed, there's been ample time to put all of that information in. So I wouldn't, I don't think it would be worth it. I don't think they're going to come to, I don't think a decision could be made. I just think that the period of time is just too short. Okay, thank you. I think in the interests of everybody feeling content that they've had a fair go, I totally understand the time is very short and the decision will be difficult. We don't know which way that will go, but perhaps take half an hour just to chat between yourselves and see what we can do over the grey areas and see where we can go forward. I would say with your permission, I would suggest we take a half an hour adjournment and we return at 3.15. Yeah, from my perspective and perhaps to build on the points raised by Councillor Parker just then, really this boils down to having a set of licensed conditions that would be, as Aline alluded to in the initial presentation, there needs to be a comprehensive set of conditions that reflect the event and everything to do with the event. And including that within an EMP is one option and it's been used before, but unfortunately on this occasion when it's been used, we're slipping into what we have done in the past and fallen short on, which is where the conditions are effectively deferred to an EMP. The danger with that being, I'm going to give you a plan in the future and then that plan doesn't either materialise as being appropriate to the event or doesn't meet the needs of the responsible authorities in the form of promoting licensing objectives. It does also reflect the experience of the operators and I think that's something that will be very difficult to deal with in half an hour. So if you're anticipating achieving a mediated outcome, I don't think we would do that in half an hour or potentially even today. Okay, thank you for that. In that case on balance, I think we'll continue with the hearing if that's okay. Yeah, we won't adjourn, we'll continue. Thank you. So now we come to the other responsible... No, there's any questions, wasn't it before? Would you like to put your broader case at this moment? We've done questions, haven't we? Would you like to make your presentation now? Yeah. So it's probably of relevance that there's quite a few events at the same location and I personally and some of my colleagues have been out to those events to monitor for the noise at various times. The events have generally, if not all, been smaller than the event that's proposed on this occasion. They have led to a number of noise complaints, events at this site. So I think the timescales is what's important here really. We were consulted back on the application. The application is confusing and I think it would be useful to clear up some of the timeframes here. I've got an email from October where I think the applicants possibly submitted three separate 10s to run the event and were probably given advice from Ian that it was better to put a premises license application in. And then a long time elapsed. I'm not entirely sure, so I'll stop there and carry on. But what happened was in end of March, we received the consultation or the application which we were consulted on, we emailed, contacted the applicants and asked for specific details related to noise and the noise management plan. We detailed some of the information that would be required in that noise management plan and suggested that if it didn't come back to us in time, we would probably make a representation and object to the application. They did write back to us and give us some more detail but not all the information that we required at the time and so we maintained our objection. The types of information that was missing which we did ask for was the experience and qualifications of the noise consultant that would be used for an event of this size. I've heard a name today but that's the first time I've heard the name. For an event of this size, we probably need someone to be a member of the Institute of Acoustics so they could give advice to the applicants on how the noise could be managed. It's not really for the Council's Environmental Health team to be advising on how the event should be run. We're here to look at what's proposed and comment on that, as you know. For example, the map showing the nearest noise-sensitive properties was incorrect. There's houses in between where they said was the nearest noise-sensitive property. There's some closer. It didn't look at some that were in different directions. If the wind's blowing from the north, then just because it's 50 metres further away but it's the other direction, it's worth noting. It just didn't give us any confidence. It mentioned 40 decibels at the nearest noise-sensitive property but didn't give a time on that. 40 decibels at 8, 9, 10 pm might be okay but at two o'clock in the morning, 40 decibels certainly wouldn't be okay. There was no time mentioned on the plan. It was just various details that were lacking from the plan that just didn't give us any confidence and so we maintained our objection. I'm aware because I saw some more detail put to that noise management plan which I got today and I haven't had an opportunity to read it for this meeting. So that's why we've maintained our objection. We just don't really have the confidence with the detail that's been offered in the noise management plan that this event couldn't be run and could still potentially cause a public nuisance. So we've maintained our objection. Thank you. Thank you. Members, do you have any questions? Thank you. You said that there's been events at those premises before. I assume that they were run under temporary events notices? Bimbul Bandada, that was run under temporary events. It was less than 500 people so yeah they were run under temporary event notices. This one was of more concern because it was more than 500 and not on a 10 on premises license. So yes. I believe that that's incorrect. Sorry. Okay. And was it at that event that you received the complaints around the noise? Yeah, in previous years we received complaints about that particular event. So the year later when that event was re-run, I'm not sure under what type of license, that's when we visited. Still, so on two consecutive years. Firstly we didn't visit, the second year we did visit and there was complaints of both. Does that answer your question? It does. I don't suppose you recall what the timings were for that particular event. It might need to be something I can go back to Aline with because Aline will have a note of the temporary events notices. I was certainly there at 1 30 in the morning. Would you like a few minutes to look that up, Aline? So Bimbo Bandada, I can never say that one. That's actually got premises license there now. I think it was 10s before that. So the timings that that runs to see live music till midnight, recorded music is also supposed to be just till midnight. Oh no, they've got 24 hours of Dubuque, pardon. They go so they could go up to any time in the morning for recorded music. The live music is also slightly 24 hours as well. Did I feel you had a point to raise or a question on what was brought for us? I'm sorry, I was just going to intervene to say that they do actually have a premise license now because we've spoken to Rufus about it and just to mention that they are 3 000 capacity. They are much larger than we would be, much, much larger. Are you happy with that response? Yeah, of course. Sorry, I didn't know the detail. That event had been running for a number of years and built experience over time and learned from previous years and did noise monitoring and provided a noise management plan to a much higher degree than I have in front of us today. Thank you. Any more questions, members? No? Sorry, did you? Yeah, please. Can I also respond to a couple of things as well? Okay, so with the regards to the site map and where the points are for sound monitoring, we actually did a point at the stage of the dance stage from there to the nearest property and that was using Google Earth and that was mapping out where the nearest property was and the property that we marked out was actually closer to where the stage and where the sound was coming from. If the stage had been a bit further back or if it would have gone to a different area, yes, there are other houses which would have been directly for that. So that's in response to that one. What else was there? With regards to our experience, as the gentleman said just a minute ago, the festival that we were talking about just a minute ago, they've been running for a number of years which means they've built up their experience or we would like to do the same. We would like to run for a number of years and build up our experience. But the only way that we're able to do this is by negotiating and talking to each individual and moving forward so we can actually get this up and running really, understand what their points are and then we can deal with those points and move forward with it. We're not the sort of people what will take information on and not deal with it. We're the sort of people that if you tell us something, what needs to happen, then that's what needs to happen. And then just to move forward so that we can build on our experience and to get to know you guys with regards to what you do and how you work. A lot of the questions and doubt has been over the quality of the documentation which has come in. And obviously all of us learn day by day about how to achieve things in life. Do you feel then that perhaps with negotiation you could actually dot the i's and cross the t's and what you put in perhaps? Yeah of course, yeah 100%. I mean myself, I'm dyslexic. So when it comes to paperwork, I'm not that great on certain points. But yes, if they've got certain points that need to be put into that documentation, 100%, we can get that in the documentation and we will abide by those rules and regulations of what needs to happen to get the event going. Any more comments from anybody? No? Sorry, yeah, please. Yeah. No questions from Environmental Protection. I do. Am I allowed to ask a couple of questions? Yeah? Okay, so the gentleman over there with regards to the sound. And what would you recommend to us for the sounds as the decibels themselves? Obviously we put it down as 40 on the understanding, on our understanding, that we were going to be coming to discuss the sounds and the levels of it. So then we could go back and update the management plan itself so then we can move forwards. So obviously you've been to the site, you understand it, and you also have an idea of what the level should be. So what would that level be? I'd be bad to say that the level should be a level that doesn't cause a public nuisance. The problem is the weather changes, that I don't know anything about your music system, what type, the genre of music, how bassy is the music. I can't sit here and give you a figure now. Perhaps if you asked me 12 weeks ago when the SAG gave you a deadline for submitting the information, I might have been able to provide that information. Okay you said you had two questions, any more? To be honest it's quite clear to us that with regards to the comments that are being made, there's obviously no negotiation on that side, even though we're willing to and we're wanting to to get this up and running. It's quite clear that there's a barrier there from their side. If he doesn't know what music that we're playing, he doesn't know any how bassy it is, then realistically how do you know that what we've set our limits to be correct or incorrect? There is exactly, it's been quite, it's written down that there is a timetable and a program for how these things work and I think we've gone beyond that but this afternoon we're trying to find out, we're trying to find a way forward for everybody but I don't think anybody's been particularly difficult. What they're doing, everybody in the room has rules to deal with and they're working within those rules and those guidelines for the protection of you and the public and indeed the event. So I wouldn't say it was people being unobstructed or unkind, it's basically, there are guidelines we all work to and rules and a timetable we all work to and that's where we are. We're trying to find a way forward to make it, to accommodate everything that's being spoken about but it's, as I say, there has been a timetable laid down. Maybe there might have been misunderstandings along the way but we'll just see how we go for the rest of the afternoon and work forward if that's okay. I appreciate that. No, I've got nothing else to add, thank you. If everyone's clear with questions, is there more questions for anybody? Oh yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah, I thought you'd done that, sorry. Yes, no problem. Thank you very much. Lots already been discussed and I'm not going to repeat either what's been discussed today or what I've already included in my report that hopefully everybody has had sight of completed a short time after we received the application and submitted the objection. I'm just going to, just for the benefit of everybody in the room, I'm just going to explain a little bit about how my team works and a little bit about how other teams work as well because it's very, very similar. So, as a responsible authority, we are there to make sure that the licensing objectives are consistently promoted and it's across anything to do with alcohol and other licensable activities. So, it can include nightclubs through to small convenience stores, supermarkets, hotels and events of all different sizes. And to give you some context as to how much my very small team has to oversee, throughout Dorset we have in excess of three and a half thousand, in fact it's more, it's closer now to four thousand premises that have licenses throughout Dorset. And in addition to that, we can also manage up to six hundred temporary event notices a month that come through that require our scrutiny. And the reason I bring that to your attention, to the attention of the committee, is that whilst we are there and I was clear at the start that we are there to support event organizers and licensees to promote the licensing objectives, we have to be clear that we're not there to coach, we're not there to manage events, we're not there to put forward conditions. If there are tweaking, if there's tweaking to be made, then we will help with that. If we feel that there are some gaps, we can help with that. That's what we're there to do. We'll draw upon our experience of other similar events and our qualifications as well. But bringing it back to this particular application, it is in a location that has had other events take place, but as alluded to by my colleague from Environmental Protection, the application that's been served on us for consideration isn't to the standard that we would require to give us the confidence that the licensing objectives will be met. So just a couple of examples within the actual application, a copy of which we've got here. There's a mention here under public safety, the protection of public nuisance, that we will not serve to anyone who appears to be under the influence of alcohol to a degree where it might cause harm to either themselves or those around them. I think that's quite pertinent because it shouldn't be serving alcohol to anyone who's intoxicated full stop, and that's within the schedule, the first schedule of conditions, the mandatory ones. And we talked earlier about the under 16s and that being a mistake, but it's mentioned three times within the protection of children from harm that it's 16 that must be accompanied. I could talk forever about what's not there, but I won't. Most crucially, it's not a complete application that will give us the confidence that certainly the objectives of preventing crime disorder and public safety will be met. There is just not enough detail within the EMPs that we can be satisfied they'll be met. And just a little point on that with regards to the EMP, and I know that John Newcombe has mentioned it and Aileen alluded to it earlier as well, but we have to be really clear in that we distinguish the purpose of an EMP and the purpose of a license. The license and the content within that license is what we can enforce. If that's not met, that's a breach of that license. It's very difficult when everything is deferred to an EMP because it's really, if you like, deferring what will be met. And it also places another layer upon our enforcement because we're trying to enforce something that isn't actually part of the license, which is very, very difficult. There is a place for EMPs with regards to variable factors of an event, but when it comes to absolute certainties, based upon the experience of the event and what it is that's intended to be delivered, that needs to be within the license. And I think at the moment, we are none the wiser as to what this event intends to be only today learning about the likely numbers of attendees, et cetera. There are examples within the EMP where it then refers to other plans. There will be other things in place. There's various examples throughout. There will be an evacuation plan in place. We don't know what that evacuation plan is. Entry won't be a problem, but then there's no details mention of traffic management, certainly off the main Cranbourne Road. It mentions there about code words being used for certain events and emergency plans will be in place. But again, we don't know what those are. Yes, the positive side is that the website is very good. There's lots of detail on there around the events and clearly the applicants and those responsible for operating the events are very good at promoting the event and I think that's really, really good. The only issue that I picked up with regards to the website was around a mention of the fact that the police will only be on site where a crime has been reported or something similar to that. I'd just like to clarify for the benefit of everybody that there are powers under the licensing act for constables to be on site and authorized persons whenever the license activity is believed to be taking place. So, that will need amendment. I have nothing further to add. Thank you very much. Thank you. Members, any questions? And applicants, have you got any questions on what has just been put? I've got a few answers. I'm not too sure about the questions. I mean, with regards to the security codes, that was, for example, if a child gets lost, we would actually be put in on their wristbands underneath a code so that if a parent phones or a child gets lost, it would have their phone number so that we know that we're giving that child back to the correct person as regards to the code. When did you want to say a few further pieces? I think I just want to appeal to, I can see that as our first application, the detail in the event management plan hasn't been up to standard, and we apologize for that, but I just want to reiterate that we have spent a year 24/7 putting every single effort that we have into promoting and getting this event running with great love and care and money and time that we have not been paid for. So, please, I'll just ask you to take that into consideration that we have tried our best, and I'm sorry, it was, you know, I think the event management plan to hinge, I know that you have rules and regulations, but to hinge that licensing on the written plan itself is, and I know that you only have that to go by, but I would urge you just to hear us as humans and encourage you to know that we have great care for the public that are coming to this event and having every intention of ensuring their welfare and their safeguarding, and especially the children. I'm a teacher, I would, yeah, we've got lots of DBS people and nurses and everyone will be taking care of each other. So, just wanted to reiterate that, really. We will give you chance to properly sum up in a moment, anyway, okay, thank you. Would you like to present your case, sorry. Environmental health, would you like to present your case now? You have, yeah, anything more to add? Indeed, yes, quite, yeah, sorry, thank you. No, I haven't got any questions for Gareth, thank you. And you've nothing else to add to what you put already? Okay, thank you. So, would you like to sum up now? Yes, of course. I completely believe that the applicants are well-intended people. I believe that they want to deliver a safe and compliant event. I absolutely don't doubt that in one way. I think the problem that we have is that the only thing that we have to go on is paperwork. There are people out there that are contractors and experienced people that can help with that. And perhaps had they been on board earlier, I think a lot of the intentions could have materialized into policies and plans that will have satisfied myself and other responsible authorities. But unfortunately, we are where we are and we have to assess the event and the safety of the event based upon what's in front of us. And we have two aspects of that and one being the important thing today is the premises license application. And that in itself should stand alone. It can be supported by other documents such as the EMP, but it should in itself give that confidence that the licensing objectives will be met. And unfortunately, I'm not satisfied and I would invite yourselves not to be satisfied with what's contained within that application. Secondly, the event management plan often used to supplement, as I've already said. And again, unfortunately, I feel that that falls short. So where we are as Dorset Police as it stands is that we don't have the confidence that the licensing objectives will be met. But I go back to what I said at the start where I do believe that the individuals concerned in the application are well-intended people. They intend to do it, but unfortunately, I don't have the confidence that it will be delivered and that if something does go wrong, there will be appropriate measures in place to manage that. Thank you very much. And now come to Environmental Health. Would you like to sum up, please? Similar to Gareth, really. I'm sure the applicants have tried the best and got good intentions and could run a good event. It's just we as a council, you know, we see many events like this and we offer support all the way through from start to finish as much as we can. It's just the time scales that have run out here and with the level of paperwork, especially the noise management plan provided to us, just really don't have the confidence and now the time to feel that this feel that this event could be run without the potential of causing the public nuisance. Okay, thank you very much. It's now over to your good selves to sum up, if you would, please. Thank you. Yeah, I would like to go back to everything what everyone said. With regards to our event management plan, again, apologies that it's not come to their standards of what they're used to or what they've seen. It's something that we'll definitely be working on for future reference, 100%. With regards to the event itself, I mean, we've got team members within our event that are highly qualified, a lot more qualified than most events, due to the fact that this is going to be our first national event. With regards to our security team, they run a number of festivals and they are highly clued up on what they're doing. With regards to the first aid side of things, again, the guys are paramedics and all the equipment that they're bringing with them. We had a conversation with him today and he said that the equipment and the knowledge of what is coming to our festival is second to none. He hasn't even seen some of the larger events in Bulma. With regards to the sound monitoring, again, it may not be wrote down on a document. Again, we were under the impression that when we came here, that's something what we would be talking about. We didn't realize it was going to be so in-depth, so hopefully we've given as much information as possible on our side of things. But when it comes to the sound side of things, again, we've got a company which has been doing this for a number of years and has been dealing with sounds. They deal with Boomtown, which is a massive festival, and they are going to be dealing with the monitoring side of things as well. So in place, in the actual festival itself, we've got a number of people who have been within the industries for a number of years and have the qualifications and the understanding of how a festival should feel and be safe, secure for not just people inside the festival, but also outsiders, the general public as well. I can just, again, apologize for the paperwork side of things. That's something which we will definitely look into. But in the meantime, I just hope that you can take on board that it's not just us that are going to be dealing with this festival. It's actually a whole team of people dealing with the festival, and those people within the team are highly qualified. Thank you very much. Wendy, would you like to add anything? I just reiterate what Steve said, really. I think that's all we could do today is just to help you understand the things that we have actually put in place. I think we've gone into quite depth today at the different organizations, professional organizations we've engaged, and I don't think we can do any more than that, really. So thank you for your time. Well, thank you very much, and thank you for what you've gone through. I realize from what you've said, it's sort of different to what you expected. Oh, yeah. Sorry, Eileen, did you want to sum up? Sorry, forgive me. Thank you, Chair. The only thing I would say to you is that the guidance says you must look to your responsible authorities as your expert on matters, and that's all I'd like to remind you of when you're taking your decision. Thank you. Yeah, sorry, Eileen. I missed you there. Yeah, so thank you, everybody, for attending this afternoon. We'll go away, take on board everything we've heard from all parties. We hope that everybody feels it's been a fair and reasonable hearing. The outcome will be delivered to all parties within five working days. That's the intention. Should anyone not agree with the outcome, then you do have right of appeal to the Weymouth Magistrates Court within 21 days. So thank you very much for your time. Thank you for coming. So we've all learned every day. We all learn something, don't we? I know there's not much help, but we learn as we go through life. But thank you very much. We will now retire with the legal officer, and we'll reach our decision in private. Thank you very much.