Constitutional Review Committee - Tuesday, 28th May, 2024 7.00 pm
May 28, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meeting or read trancriptTranscript
Good evening Councillors and Officers of the Council and members of the public. Welcome to the meeting of the Constitutional Review Committee. Some housekeeping, fire evacuation procedure. If the fire alarm is activated, please vacate the offices via the stirrers. Please do not use the lifts. Please assemble in all the square on the green and officers will assist you and advise when it's safe to return. Filming. Does anyone intend filming the meeting? Any men in the public? No. Will everyone present please ensure their mobile phones are turned to silent and they are not used to make or receive phone calls in the chamber whilst the meeting is in progress. Please note this meeting is being live streamed for members of the public except for any items of business where exempt or confidential information is considered following the exclusion of the press and the public from the meeting. Would any member who wishes to speak under Council procedure room 20.1 please announce it now. Apologies for absence. We have apologies from Councillors Fellowes and Pugh. Are there any other apologies? Are there any declarations of interest? No. Good. Minutes of the previous meeting. I move that the minutes of the meeting held on the 27th of February 2024 be approved and signed as a correct record. Can I have a seconder please? May I ask a question please? Yes Councillor Osteen. Thank you. Under the minute on the Councillor Officer Protocol I'm concerned that there's an issue that isn't mentioned here when we're talking about officer workload and response times and so on. There was quite a discussion about the culture that we had inherited and how we were trying to change that. This is not mentioned in the minutes. As it's very important and reflected in, for example, the Independent Monitoring Officer's report, I do think it should be in there somewhere. I note your comments and can I leave that with you Mr Ewes? Yes, that's fine. We will make a note in this set of minutes. Thanks very much. Thank you Councillor Osteen's comments obviously. Councillor Scobee. Item Agenda 4. Will Ingrid Brown please present the report. Thank you Chair. This report is really to remedy an anomaly in the constitution and you'll see from the report that in part 4 of the constitution the procedure is set out for the provision of the taking of urgent decisions. However within part 3 in the scheme of delegation there is no delegated authority for anyone to take urgent decisions and so for that reason I've made these proposals, the proposed amendments and there's additional amendments because the provisions are for there to be consultation with the chair of the council, the vice chair under the previous procedural arrangements that was in the absence of either the chair or the vice chair it was to be the chief exec but I'm proposing that be the chair of the overview and scrutiny panel. So quite simple, it's really just remedying an anomaly in the constitution but I'm happy to take any questions. Does anybody want to raise any questions? No. Yes Councillor Scobee. How often has that been used in recent years? Is that something that we expect to happen regularly, infrequently, never? Really, really infrequently and certainly since I've been in post I'm not aware of a single key decision, an urgent key decision being taken and you'll see from the provisions of the constitution that in any event they always have to be reported to full council. So certainly since I've been here I'm not aware of any. And could you as a follow-up chair if I may, could you just talk us through how that would work in practice then just step by step, so a decision we're taking, how it would be reported, what the steps are in there? So the chief exec would take the view that there was some really, really pressing matter and he'd have to demonstrate urgency and discussion with myself and probably the section 151 officer and other key officers and would no doubt try and consult with a leader in practicality, make that decision and as you'll see from the proposals all kind of financial regulations, procurement rules etc. are suspended for those purposes. Once the decision is made that that's what they want to do they'd have to consult with the chair of council to confirm that the chair was satisfied, that the matter was urgent and reasonable, justified and proportionate. And then the decision could be taken and/or the vice chair or the chair of overview and scrutiny in their absence. The decision would then be taken and then it would have to be reported to full council at the next meeting of full council and obviously the grounds for urgency would need to be apparent. But that's what's required. The best example is say for example the seawall in Margate failed and the whole of the old town flooded. Then there would be an expectation that we would need to do something. We wouldn't go I'm terribly sorry we can't clean up the mess because we haven't put a decision on the forward plan 28 days in advance or it's over the key decision threshold. So it's designed for those big ticket items. It's not a thing for oh we haven't quite got the decision making right here let's use the special urgency. That's not what the intention is at all. Councillor Osteen. Can I just ask about the alternative options where we're looking at the possibility of consultation with the leader and as we've got the leader with us I'm just wondering what his thoughts were about that. I think in the real world the chief executive would consult with the leader providing that was possible but I can't guarantee as leader and I'm sure no leader could to be available 365 days a year 24 hours a day. There are circumstances when for example I might be in hospital or I might be on the other side of the world where that wouldn't be the right thing to do. So I'm more comfortable I think with the chief exec and I think that I think it being the chief exec as well chief exec being a non-political figure I think that might give council some comfort as well really that the leader isn't making political choices even if they have to be held account for on subsequently so I think it's right it should be the chief exec but I think the way these things work in practice there's a constant dialogue going on about lots of things between me and the chief exec and with cabinet so I'm sure it would be a it's very unlikely it would happen in isolation in practice. In that case any other observations could I have a purposer and a seconder please. Proposed by Councillor Britcher. Seconder. Councillor Austin. Do councillors agree. Thank you very much. Agenda item five recording of executive and non-executive decisions could I ask Ingrid Brown to present the report please. Thanks again chair. Again I've brought this report to remedy something that I think should be in the constitution in accordance with the local authorities executive arrangements meetings and access access to information regulations which provide that a decision notice must be published in respect of both well all executive decisions our constitution currently provides for specifically sets out for the provision of a decision notice in respect of executive key decisions but doesn't address the issue of the publication of a decision notice in respect of executive non-key decisions and there are obvious reasons for that because and councils when these regulations first came in really shied away from doing anything at all but that position in my view is is untenable going forward and I think this is something that you know the LGA and other councils are really picking up on and so I've and CMTA sought to define what we think distinguishes a major operational or an executive decision that's more than merely administrative and so we've set out or I set out in the report a proposal for those matters that we say these regulations should apply to and when the regulations first came out there was lots of legal debate about you know what was intended by these because it would be impossible as I said to publish every executive decision notice in relation to every executive decision and leading council certainly took the view that you know that decisions that were merely administrative should be distinguished from those that were more major operational and required the level of transparency and so what's proposed is that all decisions are officer decisions between which incur expenditure including loss of income between 140 and 250,000 should be there should be a published decision notice also decisions which have been specifically delegated to officers to conclude an agreement or contract with the outline terms agreed by the cabinet and or a decision which is controversial and or politically sensitive in nature or is in the opinion of the director of such significance that published record of the decision making which is the only way to ensure sufficient transparency and accountability. So thank you chair I'm happy to take any questions. Chair Austin. Can I just ask under 6.2 in the additional the annex no not in the annex sorry in the main report there's a paragraph just before where the A and B are the last sentence of that doesn't make sense to me I think there may be extra words in that should have been deleted the one that starts in relation in relation to each of the aforementioned the regulations provide a written record must be produced is it provide that a written record must be produced or is it is there something because there's then something that says as soon as reasonably practical a written statement must be produced. Apologies yeah just a copying mistake yeah that's exactly what it is thank you for that yeah and in short I think there was an amended version of this actually yes I think Colin pointed out so apologies I'll make sure that's remedy. Thank you. Does anybody else wish to make any comments? In that case could I have a proposer and a seconder please? Councillors agree? Agreed. Thank you very much. Item agenda 6 the constitutional review committee work programme I ask Mr Hughes to introduce the report please. Thank you chair so in response to recommendations from both the previous working party and others we have set up a full work programme for the committee which is at paragraph 3.2 which states the list of things that we are going to look at and the dates of the meeting so they should all be hopefully in people's diaries now which should make planning meetings far easier members can obviously add things to this list if they wish they wish if they want to move things around that's also fine also at paragraph 3.4 members were asking about in previous meetings about how things get onto the work programme it's our suggestion that members come to dem services we then include them on this report which will become a standard item at all the meetings and then the panel will then decide if it wishes to commission a report and dem services would then go away to research the matter write the report and bring back options to the constitutional review working party of its next meeting and then the panel can then have an informed debate and decide whether it wants to send that on to full council or whether it wishes to keep things the same so happy to take any questions Councillor Austin can I just strongly welcome this this is a really good step forward I think and welcome the chance for members to councillors to come up with suggestions because I remember when I was first elected and I asked how how do we get items onto the agenda for the constitutional review working party I was told quite bluntly that it wasn't possible to do so so it's great to see that it is now possible to do so and that we can actually discuss some of these issues that some of us have been muttering away about under our breath for a while and I look forward to being part of those discussions thank you yeah I think I think Councillor makes a good point I mean it was very unsatisfactory really because it wasn't clear and I was constantly being told well it's up to the leader what goes on the agenda and I don't think it should be up to the leader what goes on the agenda of the meeting it's up to the meeting to decide whether it actually wants to take things forward I'm slightly I'm tempted to suggest to Mr Hugh something that he and I have discussed before about the arrangements for substitutes on licensing and licensing panels because I think different different interpretations of the law operate in different local authorities and I'd love to have some clarification on that but I don't know how much enthusiasm there is for that and we just just to explain I think how we operate here is we don't allow our substitutes on the licensing board but we do allow our substitutes on licensing panels other local authorities of my acquaintance have the opposite interpretation of the law so I just wonder whether we ought to find out we may not need to do it in this meeting but whether we can find out whether we're actually operating properly I'm happy to add it to the list of things to have a look at take that away and have a look and schedule it in will that be 2025 yes Councillor Austin are we suggesting things now or would you rather we emailed you if you've got suggestions now then we can we can take them away and one thing that our group suggested at an earlier stage that hasn't made it onto here but we'd like to be considered is the possibility of groups having joint leaders which happens in other certain other councils but it's not allowed by our constitution I understand and the other one that I'd like to remind people about although I'm sure it won't gain traction and the current circumstances is that the previous council voted before COVID that we would explore options for a committee system in order to investigate whether the cabinet system was still working for us obviously our political makeup has changed since then and I imagine that that will not gain much approval from colleagues but I would like it registered that that was something that we agreed we would explore and investigate and just talk to other councils who had different systems to check that what we have is still working best for us that was obviously derailed by COVID and everything and never taken forward thank you Councillor Scobie yeah and and couple of Councillor Austins points there sort of in in some senses triggers one of the questions I had was so are we suggesting things for this agenda or are we voting to add things because there's two different things here are we deciding what we want to look at for the next year or are we suggesting things for democratic services to go away and decide because one of those is a political point and that's as you the point you made you know there are political decisions to be made here this is a political committee one of them is an officer decision and I think you know on on overview and scrutiny I'm not clear what side of the you know when when we sort of suggest things are we suggesting them for officers to go away and assess and to come back or are we adding them to a list in the future will be explored I think certainly in this committee if well we would affect it we're short-circuiting the process somewhat by say for example if you did come with those suggestions outside of the meeting we would have brought them to the next meeting saying we've had these suggestions do you want to add them to your work program so we may as well do that now in this meeting so if there are things that you want us to go away and look at you can name them tonight and we'll go away and and look at those and add them to the work program with regards to the other panels scrutiny is a bit funny isn't it in the sense that oh yeah yeah but yeah so tonight yes if you want us to make suggestions we will add them to the work program and then we will go away and formulate proposals and bring them back if I may chair may I suggest then that just so we don't get confused on this if people put forward ideas of things they'd want to include maybe they justify that and if somebody's got an objection then we can debate it if not you know so for example I think and we've discussed this before the rules around petitions need a review I think the way that it's structured in terms of the numbers and what goes where I think would benefit from a review but that's my view and as an example I would think that if we are going to bring things into a meeting if somebody puts it forward justifies where they're coming from unless anybody has objections then it goes forward with officers if not like any other committee it would be put to about suggestion on how we can at least deal with this in a structured way otherwise we're potentially going to be butting heads on things about I don't agree with that etc so do we need to discuss what Councillor Scobie's just said at this meeting now or do we put it on the agenda for the next one I think as I say at the end of this discussion we'll have a list and then I think it's probably best if we just read the list out and then members can say yep we're happy with that list add that to the things or if there are things on that list that ideally you'd like to do via consensus but if there are people if there are things that people feel very strongly about and yet we could have a vote to say actually we don't want X on the list that's fine so that needs to be short of debating tonight what we keep on the list and what we don't yeah okay yeah Councillor Crittenden on that basis I'm just curious or questioning the appropriateness of discussing the committee system in this committee I'm not sure it fits in here I was reminding people that it was something that we that the previous council had agreed to discuss I'm not sure it's relevant anymore but it might be something for us to bear in mind yeah it's not something it's a very fair point to raise and it's true but I think it's probably outside the remit of this committee as to whether or not that's because I think as previously that's quite a political thing for officers to make a call on that's for for members to decide Councillor curry yes chair of licensing myself and the vice-chair have discussed raising the numbers on the licensing subcommittee from three to five I was wondering would that come through this committee or would it be dealt with through the with with the licensing officers I think if the numbers are specified in the constitution and off top of my head I don't know without looking but I'll check in a minute and then it would need to come back to this committee anybody Councillor Everett yeah just on a point clarification really um Councillor Austin raises an interesting point about joint leaders of groups but I assume that it's unlawful to have a joint leader of a council because of the way that the system is constructed around a strong leader I'm not aware of any councils that have joint leaders I don't know where their officers are um and presumably that is why the group structure reflects that I'm not saying whether it's a good thing or a bad thing as well so I'm just saying I'm just asking whether the whether you can actually have a joint leader of a council Councillor Austin I believe I've just read this morning about a council that has four joint leaders but I may be wrong about that I will check it up and get back to Councillor Everett but I was thinking about group leaders rather than council leaders I know there are a number of councils that permit there to be two people sharing the leadership that that would be one of the things we'd look into as to whether it was legally possible or not as part of the report has anybody else got any observations Councillor Scobee yeah so just sort of stepping back from the things that we're potentially adding can I ask Nick if you could go through the three areas that are on the agenda for discussions we've got questions speech length minutes of voting I should understand sort of the intent behind that just so when the report comes is not too much of a shock and we're going to want to go back into the group to the Labour group and I'm sure others will to get feedback then we've got the motions process and then there's the rules of debate you can just give a big bit of background on those because it may be that some of the points we might be wanting to add are already covered so I think that's a really fair point I think before I start doing that if members moving forward and certainly members of your groups if if you want to bring something to the panel I'm sorry to the committee I'd take for example petitions for example asking us to review the petitions process is okay but it would be much better if you if it was a suggestion that said I don't like this bit of the petitions because it doesn't really work rather than saying a holistic issue because that would help us focus things moving forwards but with regards to the list of stuff so questions at meetings if you remember at the December council meeting last year council got slightly muddled about what the report was about and so they referred it back to the constitutional review committee so that is bringing that back to this panel to see whether or not there's anything that they'd like the panel would like to change or whether we'd like to push it back to full council but maybe with a slightly more detailed explanation of what the the previous panel thought so that's what I'm on about speech lengths speech lengths is about the fact that currently when you're in a committee particularly accounts wise not when you can be at council for example there's a current rule that allows when you're introducing an item if you're a cabinet member or a chairman of a committee you get five minutes to introduce an item but if you're not a cabinet member or a chairman of a committee then you only get three minutes to introduce an item which seems slightly odd so it's discussing whether or not members feel that that's appropriate or if not then we change it and if we change it would we change it too and then minuting of voting we've had a number of queries from councillors regarding how we record our votes and whether or not at the moment we just say members agreed or this was not agreed whether or not we then include the numbers in a vote and saying it was members agreed ten people voted in favour four people voted against now there are implications of that with regards to whether or not that counts as a recorded vote or not that and that's not insurmountable but if if we do want to write the numbers of people who have voted either way then the constitution needs to make it very clear that that is not what this council considers to be a recorded vote so that would require a change in the in the council's constitution so motions generally yeah looking at the deadlines the clarification of the process who debates them i think our current chief executive has got it comes from a a like to use the word regime that's not the right administration practice ways of practice that are extremely different to the way that that we do those and i think as i say some of those some of the motions we've we've looked at have not run as smoothly as we may have wished from procedural point of view and i think it's just a case of checking to see whether or not our processes match up with other council's processes and whether or not we debate enough or too many and having a look at those sorts of issues and where things go after they've been debated that's another one which some councils for example will have a they'll read out the the motion and members will note it and it just simply gets pushed to cabinet irrespective of whether or not it's a a cabinet function and then you end up coming back to council because they can't agree it and all sorts of various different versions of how motions work the november meeting rules of debate number of opportunities to speak on a gender item if we're being very purist when you look at the constitution the say for example the overview and scrutiny panel the the rules of debate debate are the same as the rules of debate for full council ago theoretically you should only have one right you only have the right to speak once on an item whereas obviously some of the smaller committees so osp and planning for example is another really good example um gna you want to be able to and in fact this meeting for example you want to be able to have a dialogue between people and if you're going to rigidly enforce the rules then you can't have that ergo why if we want a dialogue why do we have rules that prevent us having a dialogue surely we'd want to have potentially two sets of rules one for full council in very formal meetings another set of rules for committees like this that allow for that dialogue um so that's what that one is about uh and then the annual report is just as say we every at the end of every year we put together a review of of what we've done as a panel um and that goes off to full council for the march meeting of the council can i just ask have we actually got a date for the november meeting because it's showing blank um i'm not sure off the top of my head but i will check thank you councilor clinton yeah i just wanted to add um because councilor scoby asked the question um that first item about the questions um at meetings i think that also a part of the recommendation that came from crwp through standards actually reduced the number of questions that were possible from backbenchers and i know councilor austin queried it at cr well she told me she queried it at crwp i queried it at standards it still went through the three-stage process um and got to full council where we had a backbench revolt from um one side and uh so um i proposed that we chucked it back at crwp but it was that part of the um of the recommendation more than anything that that caused the problem so sorry but i just thought it's worth adding that thank you councilor austin uh i found the council that uh has four leaders it's runny mead um there's a bbc runny mead borough council's new political administration has four co-leaders which has been created after no single party held the majority following local elections this month the runny mead council allowance will be led by independent labor greens and liberal democrats thank you i've got to say is that written on the magna carter if it's in runny mead councilor scoby thank you chair um and thank you nick for that i think um in addition to sort of uh raising that we discuss petitions and i think specifically the petitions section i'd like to look at is what happens to petitions in between meetings because you've got residents who gather a lot of signatures and because of quirks of the diary it could be weeks if not months before they get an adequate response and i think we need to more clearly flesh that out so it goes to an appropriate decision making body quickly so those residents feel like they've been heard and i think nick and democratic services do lots of good work to make sure petitions are heard but not by the constitutional rules at the moment um and then the second one um which is already sort of covered in that first meeting under speech lengths i do think we need to have discussion about the chair's discretion on um speeches that overrun um because particularly to your point around um somebody who's a cabinet member or committee chair introducing a motion um or a an item particularly when there's time limited debate so for example on a motion if somebody is introducing an item and then gets to speak at the end of it to close the debate and then they overrun they could be speaking for half of the allocated time for um a debate and from my perspective even though from benches obviously have a lot of really really good stuff to say i'm not sure um chairs discretion is necessarily the correct way to cover that and i'm not saying i've got views or ideas on how we deal with that but i think there needs to be better understanding of that because they've been in the last year two very sensitive debates where you would not want to cut people off on their discussion but it did mean that those debates went on for well over an hour uh and under the constitution maybe it wasn't really covered so i think it's worth a discussion so those those would be the two things i would ask to be added anybody else got a council richer uh yes um thanks chair at a previous meeting um there was definitely a discussion of how many steps were needed for constitutional changes from three i think it was we're currently a three step and some place the two step um is that something that can be added we we just changed it to two yes yes yeah it was changed at the last meeting does anybody else have any observations to make um um sorry um obviously we've already got quite an extensive work program um there is we're quite a small team um so uh we will put these um so the speech length overruns will include on the next agenda because we're already talking about that the other one two three things we will add later on in the year if that's okay with yeah so um just to clear so we're going to look at and say if you're not agreed i'll read them out one at a time so licensing subs which way around is it which do uh substitutions do we allow substitutions on the board or on the commit on subcommittees everyone agree cool uh petitions what happens between the meetings and in the in the way that that works everybody agreed on that yep um speech length overruns we'll add that into the next one with that and uh joint leaders for political groups we can have a look and see whether or not that works i'm just gonna show it is everybody in agreement with that list for the next agenda well for the for the work program yeah for the work program sorry yeah not for the next agenda work program council scobey i'm happy to propose that we add those four items sorry the committee instructions are thought if there are any amendments the post topics covered in the ensuring you otherwise councillors are asked to note the report could i please have a proposal council scobey thank you and a seconder as lost in the council's agree concludes the business of the meeting oh just to say that we did receive um apologies from councillor scott just for the record before we close the meeting class should we have a an aob at the end of the this sort of meeting or not no no no no no no just just just just to clarify i've just received apologies from councillor green for tonight okay
Transcript
Good evening Councillors and Officers of the Council and members of the public. Welcome to the meeting of the Constitutional Review Committee. Some housekeeping, fire evacuation procedure. If the fire alarm is activated, please vacate the offices via the stirrers. Please do not use the lifts. Please assemble in all the square on the green and officers will assist you and advise when it's safe to return. Filming. Does anyone intend filming the meeting? Any men in the public? No. Will everyone present please ensure their mobile phones are turned to silent and they are not used to make or receive phone calls in the chamber whilst the meeting is in progress. Please note this meeting is being live streamed for members of the public except for any items of business where exempt or confidential information is considered following the exclusion of the press and the public from the meeting. Would any member who wishes to speak under Council procedure room 20.1 please announce it now. Apologies for absence. We have apologies from Councillors Fellowes and Pugh. Are there any other apologies? Are there any declarations of interest? No. Good. Minutes of the previous meeting. I move that the minutes of the meeting held on the 27th of February 2024 be approved and signed as a correct record. Can I have a seconder please? May I ask a question please? Yes Councillor Osteen. Thank you. Under the minute on the Councillor Officer Protocol I'm concerned that there's an issue that isn't mentioned here when we're talking about officer workload and response times and so on. There was quite a discussion about the culture that we had inherited and how we were trying to change that. This is not mentioned in the minutes. As it's very important and reflected in, for example, the Independent Monitoring Officer's report, I do think it should be in there somewhere. I note your comments and can I leave that with you Mr Ewes? Yes, that's fine. We will make a note in this set of minutes. Thanks very much. Thank you Councillor Osteen's comments obviously. Councillor Scobee. Item Agenda 4. Will Ingrid Brown please present the report. Thank you Chair. This report is really to remedy an anomaly in the constitution and you'll see from the report that in part 4 of the constitution the procedure is set out for the provision of the taking of urgent decisions. However within part 3 in the scheme of delegation there is no delegated authority for anyone to take urgent decisions and so for that reason I've made these proposals, the proposed amendments and there's additional amendments because the provisions are for there to be consultation with the chair of the council, the vice chair under the previous procedural arrangements that was in the absence of either the chair or the vice chair it was to be the chief exec but I'm proposing that be the chair of the overview and scrutiny panel. So quite simple, it's really just remedying an anomaly in the constitution but I'm happy to take any questions. Does anybody want to raise any questions? No. Yes Councillor Scobee. How often has that been used in recent years? Is that something that we expect to happen regularly, infrequently, never? Really, really infrequently and certainly since I've been in post I'm not aware of a single key decision, an urgent key decision being taken and you'll see from the provisions of the constitution that in any event they always have to be reported to full council. So certainly since I've been here I'm not aware of any. And could you as a follow-up chair if I may, could you just talk us through how that would work in practice then just step by step, so a decision we're taking, how it would be reported, what the steps are in there? So the chief exec would take the view that there was some really, really pressing matter and he'd have to demonstrate urgency and discussion with myself and probably the section 151 officer and other key officers and would no doubt try and consult with a leader in practicality, make that decision and as you'll see from the proposals all kind of financial regulations, procurement rules etc. are suspended for those purposes. Once the decision is made that that's what they want to do they'd have to consult with the chair of council to confirm that the chair was satisfied, that the matter was urgent and reasonable, justified and proportionate. And then the decision could be taken and/or the vice chair or the chair of overview and scrutiny in their absence. The decision would then be taken and then it would have to be reported to full council at the next meeting of full council and obviously the grounds for urgency would need to be apparent. But that's what's required. The best example is say for example the seawall in Margate failed and the whole of the old town flooded. Then there would be an expectation that we would need to do something. We wouldn't go I'm terribly sorry we can't clean up the mess because we haven't put a decision on the forward plan 28 days in advance or it's over the key decision threshold. So it's designed for those big ticket items. It's not a thing for oh we haven't quite got the decision making right here let's use the special urgency. That's not what the intention is at all. Councillor Osteen. Can I just ask about the alternative options where we're looking at the possibility of consultation with the leader and as we've got the leader with us I'm just wondering what his thoughts were about that. I think in the real world the chief executive would consult with the leader providing that was possible but I can't guarantee as leader and I'm sure no leader could to be available 365 days a year 24 hours a day. There are circumstances when for example I might be in hospital or I might be on the other side of the world where that wouldn't be the right thing to do. So I'm more comfortable I think with the chief exec and I think that I think it being the chief exec as well chief exec being a non-political figure I think that might give council some comfort as well really that the leader isn't making political choices even if they have to be held account for on subsequently so I think it's right it should be the chief exec but I think the way these things work in practice there's a constant dialogue going on about lots of things between me and the chief exec and with cabinet so I'm sure it would be a it's very unlikely it would happen in isolation in practice. In that case any other observations could I have a purposer and a seconder please. Proposed by Councillor Britcher. Seconder. Councillor Austin. Do councillors agree. Thank you very much. Agenda item five recording of executive and non-executive decisions could I ask Ingrid Brown to present the report please. Thanks again chair. Again I've brought this report to remedy something that I think should be in the constitution in accordance with the local authorities executive arrangements meetings and access access to information regulations which provide that a decision notice must be published in respect of both well all executive decisions our constitution currently provides for specifically sets out for the provision of a decision notice in respect of executive key decisions but doesn't address the issue of the publication of a decision notice in respect of executive non-key decisions and there are obvious reasons for that because and councils when these regulations first came in really shied away from doing anything at all but that position in my view is is untenable going forward and I think this is something that you know the LGA and other councils are really picking up on and so I've and CMTA sought to define what we think distinguishes a major operational or an executive decision that's more than merely administrative and so we've set out or I set out in the report a proposal for those matters that we say these regulations should apply to and when the regulations first came out there was lots of legal debate about you know what was intended by these because it would be impossible as I said to publish every executive decision notice in relation to every executive decision and leading council certainly took the view that you know that decisions that were merely administrative should be distinguished from those that were more major operational and required the level of transparency and so what's proposed is that all decisions are officer decisions between which incur expenditure including loss of income between 140 and 250,000 should be there should be a published decision notice also decisions which have been specifically delegated to officers to conclude an agreement or contract with the outline terms agreed by the cabinet and or a decision which is controversial and or politically sensitive in nature or is in the opinion of the director of such significance that published record of the decision making which is the only way to ensure sufficient transparency and accountability. So thank you chair I'm happy to take any questions. Chair Austin. Can I just ask under 6.2 in the additional the annex no not in the annex sorry in the main report there's a paragraph just before where the A and B are the last sentence of that doesn't make sense to me I think there may be extra words in that should have been deleted the one that starts in relation in relation to each of the aforementioned the regulations provide a written record must be produced is it provide that a written record must be produced or is it is there something because there's then something that says as soon as reasonably practical a written statement must be produced. Apologies yeah just a copying mistake yeah that's exactly what it is thank you for that yeah and in short I think there was an amended version of this actually yes I think Colin pointed out so apologies I'll make sure that's remedy. Thank you. Does anybody else wish to make any comments? In that case could I have a proposer and a seconder please? Councillors agree? Agreed. Thank you very much. Item agenda 6 the constitutional review committee work programme I ask Mr Hughes to introduce the report please. Thank you chair so in response to recommendations from both the previous working party and others we have set up a full work programme for the committee which is at paragraph 3.2 which states the list of things that we are going to look at and the dates of the meeting so they should all be hopefully in people's diaries now which should make planning meetings far easier members can obviously add things to this list if they wish they wish if they want to move things around that's also fine also at paragraph 3.4 members were asking about in previous meetings about how things get onto the work programme it's our suggestion that members come to dem services we then include them on this report which will become a standard item at all the meetings and then the panel will then decide if it wishes to commission a report and dem services would then go away to research the matter write the report and bring back options to the constitutional review working party of its next meeting and then the panel can then have an informed debate and decide whether it wants to send that on to full council or whether it wishes to keep things the same so happy to take any questions Councillor Austin can I just strongly welcome this this is a really good step forward I think and welcome the chance for members to councillors to come up with suggestions because I remember when I was first elected and I asked how how do we get items onto the agenda for the constitutional review working party I was told quite bluntly that it wasn't possible to do so so it's great to see that it is now possible to do so and that we can actually discuss some of these issues that some of us have been muttering away about under our breath for a while and I look forward to being part of those discussions thank you yeah I think I think Councillor makes a good point I mean it was very unsatisfactory really because it wasn't clear and I was constantly being told well it's up to the leader what goes on the agenda and I don't think it should be up to the leader what goes on the agenda of the meeting it's up to the meeting to decide whether it actually wants to take things forward I'm slightly I'm tempted to suggest to Mr Hugh something that he and I have discussed before about the arrangements for substitutes on licensing and licensing panels because I think different different interpretations of the law operate in different local authorities and I'd love to have some clarification on that but I don't know how much enthusiasm there is for that and we just just to explain I think how we operate here is we don't allow our substitutes on the licensing board but we do allow our substitutes on licensing panels other local authorities of my acquaintance have the opposite interpretation of the law so I just wonder whether we ought to find out we may not need to do it in this meeting but whether we can find out whether we're actually operating properly I'm happy to add it to the list of things to have a look at take that away and have a look and schedule it in will that be 2025 yes Councillor Austin are we suggesting things now or would you rather we emailed you if you've got suggestions now then we can we can take them away and one thing that our group suggested at an earlier stage that hasn't made it onto here but we'd like to be considered is the possibility of groups having joint leaders which happens in other certain other councils but it's not allowed by our constitution I understand and the other one that I'd like to remind people about although I'm sure it won't gain traction and the current circumstances is that the previous council voted before COVID that we would explore options for a committee system in order to investigate whether the cabinet system was still working for us obviously our political makeup has changed since then and I imagine that that will not gain much approval from colleagues but I would like it registered that that was something that we agreed we would explore and investigate and just talk to other councils who had different systems to check that what we have is still working best for us that was obviously derailed by COVID and everything and never taken forward thank you Councillor Scobie yeah and and couple of Councillor Austins points there sort of in in some senses triggers one of the questions I had was so are we suggesting things for this agenda or are we voting to add things because there's two different things here are we deciding what we want to look at for the next year or are we suggesting things for democratic services to go away and decide because one of those is a political point and that's as you the point you made you know there are political decisions to be made here this is a political committee one of them is an officer decision and I think you know on on overview and scrutiny I'm not clear what side of the you know when when we sort of suggest things are we suggesting them for officers to go away and assess and to come back or are we adding them to a list in the future will be explored I think certainly in this committee if well we would affect it we're short-circuiting the process somewhat by say for example if you did come with those suggestions outside of the meeting we would have brought them to the next meeting saying we've had these suggestions do you want to add them to your work program so we may as well do that now in this meeting so if there are things that you want us to go away and look at you can name them tonight and we'll go away and and look at those and add them to the work program with regards to the other panels scrutiny is a bit funny isn't it in the sense that oh yeah yeah but yeah so tonight yes if you want us to make suggestions we will add them to the work program and then we will go away and formulate proposals and bring them back if I may chair may I suggest then that just so we don't get confused on this if people put forward ideas of things they'd want to include maybe they justify that and if somebody's got an objection then we can debate it if not you know so for example I think and we've discussed this before the rules around petitions need a review I think the way that it's structured in terms of the numbers and what goes where I think would benefit from a review but that's my view and as an example I would think that if we are going to bring things into a meeting if somebody puts it forward justifies where they're coming from unless anybody has objections then it goes forward with officers if not like any other committee it would be put to about suggestion on how we can at least deal with this in a structured way otherwise we're potentially going to be butting heads on things about I don't agree with that etc so do we need to discuss what Councillor Scobie's just said at this meeting now or do we put it on the agenda for the next one I think as I say at the end of this discussion we'll have a list and then I think it's probably best if we just read the list out and then members can say yep we're happy with that list add that to the things or if there are things on that list that ideally you'd like to do via consensus but if there are people if there are things that people feel very strongly about and yet we could have a vote to say actually we don't want X on the list that's fine so that needs to be short of debating tonight what we keep on the list and what we don't yeah okay yeah Councillor Crittenden on that basis I'm just curious or questioning the appropriateness of discussing the committee system in this committee I'm not sure it fits in here I was reminding people that it was something that we that the previous council had agreed to discuss I'm not sure it's relevant anymore but it might be something for us to bear in mind yeah it's not something it's a very fair point to raise and it's true but I think it's probably outside the remit of this committee as to whether or not that's because I think as previously that's quite a political thing for officers to make a call on that's for for members to decide Councillor curry yes chair of licensing myself and the vice-chair have discussed raising the numbers on the licensing subcommittee from three to five I was wondering would that come through this committee or would it be dealt with through the with with the licensing officers I think if the numbers are specified in the constitution and off top of my head I don't know without looking but I'll check in a minute and then it would need to come back to this committee anybody Councillor Everett yeah just on a point clarification really um Councillor Austin raises an interesting point about joint leaders of groups but I assume that it's unlawful to have a joint leader of a council because of the way that the system is constructed around a strong leader I'm not aware of any councils that have joint leaders I don't know where their officers are um and presumably that is why the group structure reflects that I'm not saying whether it's a good thing or a bad thing as well so I'm just saying I'm just asking whether the whether you can actually have a joint leader of a council Councillor Austin I believe I've just read this morning about a council that has four joint leaders but I may be wrong about that I will check it up and get back to Councillor Everett but I was thinking about group leaders rather than council leaders I know there are a number of councils that permit there to be two people sharing the leadership that that would be one of the things we'd look into as to whether it was legally possible or not as part of the report has anybody else got any observations Councillor Scobee yeah so just sort of stepping back from the things that we're potentially adding can I ask Nick if you could go through the three areas that are on the agenda for discussions we've got questions speech length minutes of voting I should understand sort of the intent behind that just so when the report comes is not too much of a shock and we're going to want to go back into the group to the Labour group and I'm sure others will to get feedback then we've got the motions process and then there's the rules of debate you can just give a big bit of background on those because it may be that some of the points we might be wanting to add are already covered so I think that's a really fair point I think before I start doing that if members moving forward and certainly members of your groups if if you want to bring something to the panel I'm sorry to the committee I'd take for example petitions for example asking us to review the petitions process is okay but it would be much better if you if it was a suggestion that said I don't like this bit of the petitions because it doesn't really work rather than saying a holistic issue because that would help us focus things moving forwards but with regards to the list of stuff so questions at meetings if you remember at the December council meeting last year council got slightly muddled about what the report was about and so they referred it back to the constitutional review committee so that is bringing that back to this panel to see whether or not there's anything that they'd like the panel would like to change or whether we'd like to push it back to full council but maybe with a slightly more detailed explanation of what the the previous panel thought so that's what I'm on about speech lengths speech lengths is about the fact that currently when you're in a committee particularly accounts wise not when you can be at council for example there's a current rule that allows when you're introducing an item if you're a cabinet member or a chairman of a committee you get five minutes to introduce an item but if you're not a cabinet member or a chairman of a committee then you only get three minutes to introduce an item which seems slightly odd so it's discussing whether or not members feel that that's appropriate or if not then we change it and if we change it would we change it too and then minuting of voting we've had a number of queries from councillors regarding how we record our votes and whether or not at the moment we just say members agreed or this was not agreed whether or not we then include the numbers in a vote and saying it was members agreed ten people voted in favour four people voted against now there are implications of that with regards to whether or not that counts as a recorded vote or not that and that's not insurmountable but if if we do want to write the numbers of people who have voted either way then the constitution needs to make it very clear that that is not what this council considers to be a recorded vote so that would require a change in the in the council's constitution so motions generally yeah looking at the deadlines the clarification of the process who debates them i think our current chief executive has got it comes from a a like to use the word regime that's not the right administration practice ways of practice that are extremely different to the way that that we do those and i think as i say some of those some of the motions we've we've looked at have not run as smoothly as we may have wished from procedural point of view and i think it's just a case of checking to see whether or not our processes match up with other council's processes and whether or not we debate enough or too many and having a look at those sorts of issues and where things go after they've been debated that's another one which some councils for example will have a they'll read out the the motion and members will note it and it just simply gets pushed to cabinet irrespective of whether or not it's a a cabinet function and then you end up coming back to council because they can't agree it and all sorts of various different versions of how motions work the november meeting rules of debate number of opportunities to speak on a gender item if we're being very purist when you look at the constitution the say for example the overview and scrutiny panel the the rules of debate debate are the same as the rules of debate for full council ago theoretically you should only have one right you only have the right to speak once on an item whereas obviously some of the smaller committees so osp and planning for example is another really good example um gna you want to be able to and in fact this meeting for example you want to be able to have a dialogue between people and if you're going to rigidly enforce the rules then you can't have that ergo why if we want a dialogue why do we have rules that prevent us having a dialogue surely we'd want to have potentially two sets of rules one for full council in very formal meetings another set of rules for committees like this that allow for that dialogue um so that's what that one is about uh and then the annual report is just as say we every at the end of every year we put together a review of of what we've done as a panel um and that goes off to full council for the march meeting of the council can i just ask have we actually got a date for the november meeting because it's showing blank um i'm not sure off the top of my head but i will check thank you councilor clinton yeah i just wanted to add um because councilor scoby asked the question um that first item about the questions um at meetings i think that also a part of the recommendation that came from crwp through standards actually reduced the number of questions that were possible from backbenchers and i know councilor austin queried it at cr well she told me she queried it at crwp i queried it at standards it still went through the three-stage process um and got to full council where we had a backbench revolt from um one side and uh so um i proposed that we chucked it back at crwp but it was that part of the um of the recommendation more than anything that that caused the problem so sorry but i just thought it's worth adding that thank you councilor austin uh i found the council that uh has four leaders it's runny mead um there's a bbc runny mead borough council's new political administration has four co-leaders which has been created after no single party held the majority following local elections this month the runny mead council allowance will be led by independent labor greens and liberal democrats thank you i've got to say is that written on the magna carter if it's in runny mead councilor scoby thank you chair um and thank you nick for that i think um in addition to sort of uh raising that we discuss petitions and i think specifically the petitions section i'd like to look at is what happens to petitions in between meetings because you've got residents who gather a lot of signatures and because of quirks of the diary it could be weeks if not months before they get an adequate response and i think we need to more clearly flesh that out so it goes to an appropriate decision making body quickly so those residents feel like they've been heard and i think nick and democratic services do lots of good work to make sure petitions are heard but not by the constitutional rules at the moment um and then the second one um which is already sort of covered in that first meeting under speech lengths i do think we need to have discussion about the chair's discretion on um speeches that overrun um because particularly to your point around um somebody who's a cabinet member or committee chair introducing a motion um or a an item particularly when there's time limited debate so for example on a motion if somebody is introducing an item and then gets to speak at the end of it to close the debate and then they overrun they could be speaking for half of the allocated time for um a debate and from my perspective even though from benches obviously have a lot of really really good stuff to say i'm not sure um chairs discretion is necessarily the correct way to cover that and i'm not saying i've got views or ideas on how we deal with that but i think there needs to be better understanding of that because they've been in the last year two very sensitive debates where you would not want to cut people off on their discussion but it did mean that those debates went on for well over an hour uh and under the constitution maybe it wasn't really covered so i think it's worth a discussion so those those would be the two things i would ask to be added anybody else got a council richer uh yes um thanks chair at a previous meeting um there was definitely a discussion of how many steps were needed for constitutional changes from three i think it was we're currently a three step and some place the two step um is that something that can be added we we just changed it to two yes yes yeah it was changed at the last meeting does anybody else have any observations to make um um sorry um obviously we've already got quite an extensive work program um there is we're quite a small team um so uh we will put these um so the speech length overruns will include on the next agenda because we're already talking about that the other one two three things we will add later on in the year if that's okay with yeah so um just to clear so we're going to look at and say if you're not agreed i'll read them out one at a time so licensing subs which way around is it which do uh substitutions do we allow substitutions on the board or on the commit on subcommittees everyone agree cool uh petitions what happens between the meetings and in the in the way that that works everybody agreed on that yep um speech length overruns we'll add that into the next one with that and uh joint leaders for political groups we can have a look and see whether or not that works i'm just gonna show it is everybody in agreement with that list for the next agenda well for the for the work program yeah for the work program sorry yeah not for the next agenda work program council scobey i'm happy to propose that we add those four items sorry the committee instructions are thought if there are any amendments the post topics covered in the ensuring you otherwise councillors are asked to note the report could i please have a proposal council scobey thank you and a seconder as lost in the council's agree concludes the business of the meeting oh just to say that we did receive um apologies from councillor scott just for the record before we close the meeting class should we have a an aob at the end of the this sort of meeting or not no no no no no no just just just just to clarify i've just received apologies from councillor green for tonight okay
Summary
The meeting focused on reviewing and amending the council's constitution to address various procedural issues. Key topics included the delegation of authority for urgent decisions, the publication of decision notices, and the work program for the Constitutional Review Committee.
Delegation of Authority for Urgent Decisions
Ingrid Brown presented a report to address an anomaly in the council's constitution. Part 4 of the constitution outlines the procedure for urgent decisions, but Part 3 lacks delegated authority for anyone to take such decisions. Brown proposed amendments to remedy this, including consultation with the chair of the council and the vice-chair, or in their absence, the chair of the overview and scrutiny panel. The amendments were approved after a discussion on their infrequent use and the practical steps involved.
Publication of Decision Notices
Ingrid Brown also presented a report to ensure compliance with the Local Authorities Executive Arrangements, Meetings, and Access to Information Regulations. The current constitution specifies the publication of decision notices for executive key decisions but not for non-key decisions. Brown proposed that decision notices should be published for all executive decisions involving expenditure between £140,000 and £250,000, or those that are controversial or politically sensitive. The proposal was approved after addressing a minor error in the report.
Work Program for the Constitutional Review Committee
Mr. Hughes introduced the work program for the committee, outlining the topics to be discussed in future meetings. These include questions at meetings, speech lengths, minuting of voting, the motions process, and rules of debate. Members were invited to suggest additional topics, which led to a discussion on various procedural issues such as the rules around petitions, the possibility of joint leaders for political groups, and the number of steps required for constitutional changes.
Additional Topics Suggested
- Petitions: Councillor Scobey suggested reviewing what happens to petitions between meetings to ensure timely responses.
- Speech Length Overruns: Councillor Scobey also raised the issue of chair's discretion on speeches that overrun, particularly in time-limited debates.
- Licensing Substitutes: Councillor Curry proposed increasing the number of members on the licensing subcommittee from three to five.
- Joint Leaders for Political Groups: Councillor Austin suggested exploring the possibility of allowing joint leaders for political groups, citing Runnymede Borough Council as an example.
The meeting concluded with the approval of the proposed work program and the additional topics suggested by the members. The meeting of the Constitutional Review Committee focused on several key issues, including amendments to the council's constitution, the recording of decisions, and the committee's work programme. The committee also discussed the need for clearer rules on petitions and speech lengths during meetings.
Amendments to the Constitution
Ingrid Brown presented a report to address an anomaly in the constitution regarding the delegation of authority for urgent decisions. The current constitution lacks provisions in part 3 for anyone to take urgent decisions, although part 4 outlines the procedure for such decisions. Brown proposed amendments to include the chair of the overview and scrutiny panel in the decision-making process. This proposal was discussed and approved by the committee.
Recording of Executive and Non-Executive Decisions
Ingrid Brown also presented a report on the need to publish decision notices for both executive and non-executive decisions. The current constitution only specifies the publication of decision notices for executive key decisions. Brown proposed that decisions incurring expenditure between £140,000 and £250,000, those delegated to officers, and those that are controversial or politically sensitive should also require published decision notices. This proposal was discussed and approved by the committee.
Committee Work Programme
Mr. Hughes introduced the committee's work programme, which includes a list of topics to be discussed in future meetings. Councillors were encouraged to suggest additional items for the work programme. Councillor Austin suggested reviewing the rules around petitions and the possibility of having joint leaders for political groups. Councillor Scobey suggested reviewing the rules on speech lengths and the chair's discretion during debates. These suggestions were noted and will be added to the work programme.
Other Discussions
- Councillor Osteen raised a concern about the minutes of the previous meeting, specifically regarding the discussion on officer workload and response times. This issue will be noted in the current set of minutes.
- Councillor Curry discussed the possibility of increasing the number of members on the licensing subcommittee from three to five. This will be reviewed to see if it requires a constitutional amendment.
- Councillor Everett questioned the legality of having joint leaders for a council, which will be investigated further.
The meeting concluded with the committee agreeing on the proposed amendments and additions to the work programme.
Documents
- Special Urgency Provisions
- Supplementary Agenda 28th-May-2024 19.00 Constitutional Review Committee agenda
- Recording of Executive Decisions
- DoI advice
- Minutes 27022024 Constitutional Review Committee
- Annex 1
- CRC work planning
- Printed minutes 28th-May-2024 19.00 Constitutional Review Committee minutes
- Agenda frontsheet 28th-May-2024 19.00 Constitutional Review Committee agenda