Transcript

• Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this Governance and Audit Committee meeting on the 6th of June. I'm just going to take members to the first item on the agenda, please, which is the election of the chairperson. Can I take nominations, please? Councillor Martin-Hughes. Yeah, I'd like to renominate Mr Gareth Chapman, and I'll second that. Thank you very much. That's been seconded. Are there any other nominations, please? No. Is everyone in agreement? Aye. Yes. No problem. Then I officially appoint Mr Gareth Chapman as the chair for 24-25 for the Governance and Audit Committee. We'll wait a few minutes for him to take the chair position, and then he can take over the agenda. Any thanks? There we are. Thank you very much. Thank you, committee, for hopefully what will be another successful year going forward. And again, as I say, thank you very much for your support during the previous two years. Item two on the agenda is, well, before I come to that, can I just say welcome to our new members. Apologise for that, because obviously two of you sat there. Welcome to this Governance and Audit Committee. Hopefully, you'll get into the swing of things, and everyone's contribution is welcome as long as it's relevant to the matters we're discussing. So look forward to receiving your contributions in due course. Item two on the agenda is election of the vice chairperson. Do you have any nominations, please, Richard? I'll formally move on, Chair, if you'll accept it. Okay. Martin? Yes, I second that. Okay. Andrew Bagley is the other lay member. Anyone, any other nominations? Thank you. So therefore, nomination of vice chairman is Andrew Bagley. He has indicated he's prepared to accept, but I think he's given apologies for today. Can I have a vote on it, please? Everyone in favour? Thank you very much. That's carried. Apologies for absence there. Item three, apologies. Do we have any? I've got some apologies. Colin Davis has given his apologies. And I also stand Andrew Bagley's given his apologies as well. So if that could be noted. Item four on the agenda then is declarations of interest. Do we have any declarations of interest? Nope. Thank you very much. Before you move on from that, can we have a bit of latitude on that as if we come to something that we think we should through the agenda need to declare an interest? Can we do that instead of at the beginning? I'm not a legal advisor to this committee, but the advice I would give had I been a legal advisor is that members are entitled to raise during any matter that is discussing. And if it comes to light at that time, you have an interest, you raise it at that time. Clearly there may well be some matters beforehand you were aware of. Yeah. But sometimes when discussion and debate goes, gets quite involved, all of a sudden you realise you've got an interest and you are entitled in accordance with the code of conduct to raise it at that specific time. I'm happy to be corrected by the monitoring officer at Bridgend, but that's my understanding. Yes. No, you put the light on on your microphone. Is that okay? And if all else fails, keep me away. Yes. If I just could, could, could everyone introduce themselves? Because obviously with Councillor Smith and myself being new, we wouldn't know everybody. No, that's okay. Obviously most of the officers on the front row, but I'm Gareth Chapman. I'm the lay member of the committee. I'm one of three lay members. And obviously I've been appointed chair, just let you know, I was previously a chief executive at a local authority and I'd had 42 years in local government. So, um, you know, I know just a little bit, but not a great deal now, given the, given the position you are in, in local government. So that's who I am. Should we go along the front? Yes. Hello, I'm Joan Davis. I'm the deputy head of the regional internal audit service. Morning, Andrew Waughan, head of the regional internal audit service. Morning I'm Caris Lord. I'm the chief officer for finance housing and change. Good morning. I'm Deborah Exton, deputy head of finance. Good morning, Nigel Smith, the group manager, chief accountant finance. Good morning. I'm Simon Roberts. I'm the senior fraud investigator. Good morning, Mark Shepherd, chief executive. I don't know whether any people on screen you may not know. I think, uh, I think, you know, everyone else, most of them are elected representative. Oh, we've got our colleagues from audit, Wales as Samantha and David there. So they, they obviously give an input when their, uh, items come up. Um, I think that's it. Is that okay? Lovely. Okay. It's rather the remiss of me. Cause it's a bit odd. You go to this favorite sink here. Um, before I do the approval of minutes, I need to read this out. Don't I, um, can I welcome all members and officers this meeting of the governance Nordic committee, which is held as a hybrid meeting with access via the council chamber or from remote locations via Microsoft teams, the meeting is being recorded and will be available via the council's website to be viewed as soon as is practicable following the meeting. Could everyone ensure that the mobile phones are switched off or set the silent mode members will have received an electronic, electronic, electronic copy of the agenda. I will ask officers to present a summary of the key points for the record. The agenda could be viewed on the council's website in respect of cameras. I'd be grateful if members could keep their cameras on for the duration of the meeting members and officers will be speaking at various points during the meeting. I would ask that with the exception of myself as chairperson at all other times, you keep your microphone switched off as this will help to minimize any background noise and interference and to ensure the connection remains as stable as possible, whether in the chamber or remote, if any members or officers wish to raise a point or question, they should press the hands up icon on the screen at the top right hand side of the Microsoft teams window. And I will come to you in the order I receive requests, please lower your hand. Once you have finished speaking, the chat button has been disabled for the meeting. Officers from democratic services will be supporting the meeting throughout, and we'll be monitoring the use of microphones at the meeting and where necessary, we'll mute those not being used. I would also ask that officers introduce themselves as and when I invite them to speak during the course of the meeting, they too should ensure microphones are switched off when not in use. I will now proceed to the agenda business. And obviously we've dealt with some of it and I just realized here that we've got another apology from Councillor Stephen Easterbrook. So if that could be noted as well, please. Okay. Item five on the agenda then is approval of minutes. And this is for correctness only pages three to 12. Can I just raise one issue, Richard, on the first page of the of the minutes page three, it says present virtually. Obviously some of us were present. And there were others in virtual attendance. So I'm just what it's just a typographical error that if that can be amended, that's that's an amendment I'd make. Well, I'll move with the amendment then. Sure. Thank you can have someone second it please. We were having some IT difficulties in the council. So a lot of our meetings were moved virtual during that period. So I can't remember if that meeting we actually we were all virtual or not. We were all virtual, I think. Oh, sorry, then that's my apologies. So I know I stole what's normally come in, but my apologies. I was saying what I just said, ma'am, I will go back to the original. Thank you, Caris, for that. So we've had someone to move and had someone to second it. She is away. Anyone against? No, that's carried. Thank you. Item six then is the governance Nordic Committee action record. Pages 13 to 16. I'll take this one this morning. Thank you, Chair. For those new members on the committee, actually, we have a tracker for this committee, which tracks all of the recommendations, brings them back every time so that members can are kept informed of any actions that were requested and where we are in relation to delivering those actions. So this report comes to every meeting, and you'll see it for yourselves now at appendix A this morning. Those items that are shaded out have been actioned and completed, and the others are still there with a comment on them. It's been updated to reflect the position at the current time. Caris, any questions? No, I've just got one. Well, first, I thank Mark for coming along, as well as the director of education. Hopefully, if he's somewhere around, not necessarily in the chamber, I understand. Yes, he's online, so thank you very much for that. Thank you. Item number three, which is the internal audit recommendations monitoring. It says members request the heads of service provide written updates to the next meeting of the committee in respect of all the matters set out in appendix B and C, including where they are, their action plan, when the matters outline will be concluded, and if not that date. My understanding is none of those are being provided. Am I right, Andrew? Chair, we've requested that information, but we've not received anything to date, but we were hoping to get some information to feed into our next report in terms of updating committee with our progress on recommendations implemented. That's not forthcoming in this time because we've got other annual reports coming, but obviously, Mark as the chief exec is in attendance to date here. Okay, the only point I'd make, obviously, they were due today for us to consider as a committee. Clearly, they're not ready, despite what Andrew says. Can you pick that up, Mark? I don't mean is that you, but it's a sort of theme throughout. I think some people taking this committee as just, well, if they say something, we don't really have to do it, and no one will pick us up. Mark my words that we will be picking these things up now because we are a statutory committee of the authority. We're here. Our responsibility is a governance and audit committee, and if we've got officers, the authority are not prepared to play the ball, then obviously, they will be brought to account. Hopefully, my view is that some sanctions should be put. This is the second time that this has happened. People just keep ignoring what we ask for. The only thing I'd say, Mark, it's not going to go on anymore. Enough's enough. I'm grateful for your attendance today, but if it does happen again, you're likely to have to come again and account for the officers within your control as head of paid service. That's not a Christmas view at the moment, but if you could make sure that when we ask for something, it's done. Would you like me to contribute, Chair? First of all, I think probably to reassure you that corporate management board do take the committee seriously and its recommendations. I think this was raised at a recent corporate management board, and the request has been made to head to service to provide those written responses. I think something's been missing in terms of, I didn't realise it was for today's meeting, but those have been requested. But I would want to reassure you that absolutely the committee's recommendations are taken seriously and the value of the committee is recognised. I think we have a good working relationship with both Audit Wales and internal audit, and contextually, you'll see that the vast majority of recommendations are actioned and implemented. I think if you want me to comment on those that aren't, I'll be honest and say I think in some circumstances it's not good enough and we need to improve. In others, I think there needs to be a better discipline about agreeing the recommendations because what we sometimes find is that subsequently after the report's written, we then have officers saying, Well, I don't agree with that. Well, the time to have done it was before the recommendation. I think there probably needs to be greater realism sometimes in terms of the deadlines. I think sometimes people are quick to agree something and then realise that they can't do it by a particular date, so I think we need to get better at that. And I suppose I'd say that, and I don't want this to be an excuse, that contextually our other problem is that we are probably more stretched than we've ever been, not just in terms of responding to governance and audit committee, but actually responding to all sorts of things, be that scrutiny, elected member referrals, public correspondence, whatever, and increasingly our capacity, which incidentally is in our corporate risk assessment, to respond to things in a timely manner is sometimes compromised. So that's particularly the case where there's single points of failure. So at the moment I know we're struggling, for example, in parking. I know there's a particular recommendation around parking, but I know we don't have anyone in work. Things like community asset transfer, where there's a single officer and the single officers off sick, and equally in areas like corporate landlord where we've historically struggled to make appointments. I don't want those to be excuses because I think we've got to find a way around that, but I do feel, and it's something that I know all chief executives are raising with the minister and with the government and with regulators at the moment, I do think that there are unique circumstances at the moment where probably expectations and responsibilities are greater than they've ever been, and resources are probably less than they've ever been, and we've got to make that work somehow. And I suppose I'm just highlighting some of the challenges, but I want the overall message to be that we absolutely need to comply with the requests here, and we will certainly be able to provide all of that information in the next report. Yes, thank you for that, Mark. I think the issue is obviously we're at the end of the sausage machine here. We get the action plans, we get the dates agreed, as you say, by the officer teams. It's all agreed, and then it comes to us. Now I think, as you quite rightly say, there needs to be some realism put to that in some respects. If they can't do it in three months and it needs six months, tell us six months, because what will happen is if it's not dealt with within three months, they're likely to get called in to say why it has to be dealt with. And I fully understand the full support from the management team as well, and that's greatly appreciated. The only other thing I want to make, obviously you're not here most times, the person who gets it in the neck most times is the person sat by there, Caris. Caris has to take all the messages back to the management team. I feel sorry for her some days because she has it all. But, you know, given your assurance and Caris, I got to say, gives us that assurance that you as a management team are picking them up. But if they're going to slip through the net, you know, they won't slip through the net very often now. And, you know, we have started to call. I mean, as I have in all the other authorities I joined with, you know, we've got to expect we're not here to knock the officer team. We're here to make improvements, continuous improvements, and that's hopefully what your officer team should find. But, you know, but there has to be a time and a place, and if time limits are given, then they have to abide by them. Richard? Thank you, Chair. I concur with what you just said, but I wouldn't go to the six months, I'd leave it to the three months, because if something urgent comes up and we don't pick it up and it's six months and it's gone past that to the six months, then we're going to be in trouble as an audit committee for not picking it up, because we've got Wales Auditor on the line here, right? And I'm sure they would make a comment about that, so I would leave it to every three months, because it's an important issue here. We're talking a vast amount of money. You know, that's my own personal opinion, Chair. Thank you. Well, that's your rights, Richard. So, yeah, no problem. Andrew? Thank you, Chair. And I totally acknowledge what Mark has just said, and we do have a very good working relationship with Mark and CMB. But just to put it into context a little bit, in terms of our reports, when we make recommendations, we've identified a weakness in a particular control, where we would expect the strength to be, and we had assessed the risk of that weakness, and it could be a high, medium, or low identified risk. So, therefore, our recommendation is categorised as a high, medium, or low. If it's deemed a high risk, then that obviously needs to be addressed as soon as possible. Then medium, not such a urgency, low, obviously can be pushed back a little bit. So, we have to take that into context in terms of the whole report, and the accessibility of implementing those recommendations. I don't particularly want to get into the habit of discussing with operational managers that everything is pushed back, because they haven't got the resources to do it. If we do feel it's a high risk, then we'll obviously include that in the report. The manager does have some flexibility in terms of the timescales. They're the ones who put the timescales into our report and into the management action plans, and we acknowledge that and we agree that. We then follow that up to make sure it has been implemented with evidence supporting that implementation. Thank you, Andrew. Are there any other questions? I can't see any on the screen. Any comments? Samantha? Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to say that we have recently developed an organisational response form. These forms will accompany each of our reports. They'll include our recommendations and we ask officers to provide us with an update on their response initially, and then an update on progress as part of our follow-up work. In the future for this committee, our report should be accompanied with this organisational response form, which should satisfy some of these questions. Thank you for that, Samantha. Obviously, some of those relate to your own reports. These are the internal audit reports, as well, so we just need a consistent practice, really, to move this forward. Okay. If there are no other questions, then any comments? No. Someone prepared to move the recommendation, please, that we note the action? Oh, sorry, Caris. I'm just going to say that Lindsay's here, the Director of Education, who was going to just reassure you, I suppose, with the actions that he's taken in relation to the school issue that was raised at the previous meeting, if that's all right, Chair? My apologies, Lindsay. I thought we were going to deal with it later on in the report, but we're happy to deal with this now. I think it was the issues in regards to the school transport issues and the letter you'd written. Whilst members were fairly given that assurance, we were just wondering what other powers you were actually going to use if schools didn't comply with your request, because obviously, the members of the committee in April were very concerned, given there was an incident at my stake several years ago. People were, I think the impression was, treating this with a bit of, Oh, well, we'll do it when we can. Well, we're not accepting that. Again, it's just getting that reassurance from yourself. Thank you, Chair. For the purpose of recalling, I'm Lindsay Harvey. I'm Corporate Director of Education in the early years and young people. Just to reiterate, Chair, the point that the Chief Exec has made, we take recommendations from this committee extremely seriously, as we do from internal audit. Indeed, when we receive risk assurance meetings with audit bills and other regulators, so you have my full assurance there. With regard to actions, the members of this committee will be aware that I issued a letter to all schools. Clearly, this needs to be served by multiple areas of the council. Indeed, our insurance team and also fleet services, because all of these will support schools in making sure they undertake their duties safely and in line with legislation. From that, not only do we issue the letter, Chair, we also follow this up with discussions with head teachers. I'm aware that mitigating action has been taken. For example, one school has these with fleet services and on their advice there now we're complying with all of the points, particularly the weight limit of the vehicle below 3.5 tons. Again, we've been very proactive actually on this and please accept my unreserved apologies if our action has not come to this committee because we have taken the action seriously. The next part of the question, Chair, you've asked what were our actions if we see that all lack of action from schools. As you would imagine, they're multifaceted. The first one would be a promotion of key messages, representative groups that might be through the Progen Federation of Primary Headteachers, through the Progen Association Secretary Headteachers, the Executive Edutubes and Team Bridget, which is a cross phase head teacher meeting. Following that, there will be discussion with relevant officers that would be from my own director at HR Finance and Blickstirl and partners in this instance from the police. Then, if we don't see traction or compliance with that, there would then be formal meetings with senior officers to discuss concerns and agree remedial actions. And then we move on to more serious action. There would be informal schools causing concern and letters issued to the schools. This would trigger the implementation and monitoring of a formal action plan. If that's not accepted at that point, which is rare, Chair, we would then issue a formal warning notice and at this instance, Welsh Government Ministers would be informed and formal improvement timetable would be developed and implemented in accordance with the School Standards Organisation Act 2013. Following that, if that still isn't great, and this is very rare this happens, Chair, as you can imagine, there would then be formal intervention using my statutory powers as Statuary Director under the School Standards Organisation Act. So, again, this is rare this would happen. There are schools with six grounds for me to facilitate this, two of which relate to leadership, governance and management. It's very rare, Chair, this happens. It's normally nipped in the bed well before then. But again, if we don't see improvement at this stage, there are then further statutory powers available to the local authority. One, a requirement on schools to secure external advice or to collaborate with other schools to appoint additional governors. We could suspend the delegate authority to the schools governing body to manage the school's budget or appoint an interim executive board. In exceptional circumstances, Welsh Government Ministers could force the direct, sorry, the federation of a school or indeed close the school. So, sorry, Chair, I know it's a bit of a counter through, but hopefully that gives you a assurance that the actions have been taken on the recommendations of this committee and also that in direct response to your question, I've given you a comprehensive update on the actions available to the local authority and Welsh Government where we see schools failing to comply with legislation or formal recommendations. Thank you, Chair. Is anyone got any questions? Sorry, Chairs, I wanted to come in on another point on that report, so I'll probably give away to other members until we come to that, thank you. Lindsay, yeah, Richard? Just to say thank Lindsay for coming back to us with that update. And it's good to see that the director has been positive about both the recommendations that we made, Chair, and I'd just like to thank him. Councillor Martin Williams? Yeah, thank you, Chair. It's good, as Councillor Granville said, to hear that. Would it be possible for the next committee, or if not, certainly the committee after, to have a DIP test to see how compliant the schools now are? Because, obviously, that was the concern in the first place. It came from an audit that highlighted something. We've seen the intervention. I'd like to see the impact of that intervention, please. Lindsay? Thank you, Chair. I think that's an excellent idea, Councillor Williams. Happy to do that, indeed. One thing I have asked is from our insurance team for that information. So, again, we can provide formal insurance. They will be checking all of these formally. The challenge, I suppose, with this particular area is twofold. It's insurance, which clearly they need to be compliant with, but also it's a licensing issue, and that's articulated in the letter that I've sent to schools, and I know the committee have had sight to that. So, thank you, Councillor Williams. I think that's a good suggestion. I'll certainly provide that information. Thank you. Obviously, my questions were just going to follow on from what has just been raised. Firstly, thank you for the assurance, but, you know, can you guarantee me 100% that everything is in place to ensure that the school transport, the drivers, et cetera, are, you know, are in place? Secondly, you know, whilst it's an insurance matter and such like, whilst I consider those to be of concern, the major concern for me always is the safety of the pupil. That's the major concern. You know, I couldn't care less if, I don't mean this unkind, but, you know, if the safety of the pupil isn't first and foremost in everyone's mind, then we're losing the plot somewhere here, and I think that was the concern, Lindsay, from the elected members, is that people at schools were treating this as a bit of a, you know, well, you know, we'll drive the minibus and so be it. And I think, for me, it's that assurance that every, every driver is qualified to drive it. When they take the vehicle out on a Saturday, Sunday, or whatever it is, the vehicle is fit for purpose for going on the road, so they do the regular checks, you know, et cetera, et cetera. You know, if there are seatbelts in the minibuses, all the kids wear the seatbelts and things like that, so that was my major concern. And the third thing is, which you've picked up, is the warning notice, because I just wanted to know, you know, you can write as many as letters as you want to schools and, you know, keep hyping it up, but the reality is, if you issue a warning notice, actually people then take notice, and if Estyn were coming in, and having been subject to Estyn inspection, as you have, one of the first questions they ask is, How many warning notices? You've been aware of all these issues, How many warning notices have you served? And the concern I always have is, you say, Oh, well, we've written letters, we've done X, Y, and Z, but in some respects, they've got no teeth. If you get a warning notice, all of a sudden, people will stand up, and in regards to this, as you quite likely say, ground floor of the 2013 legislation provides it very specifically, it says the safety of pupils or staff at the school is threatened, and, you know, this is a clear one, so I'd just say thank you for that. Obviously, a DIP test is great, you know, and I think it's not just a one-off. We need to do these fairly frequently to make sure whoever, you know, certainly at the beginning of a new term, if you get new teachers there, et cetera, making sure they've got the right qualifications on their license and ensuring that, so hopefully that that deals with my issues, Lindsay. - Thank you, Chair. Do you want me to come back or? - Yep, yep.
• Thanks, Chair. So a number of issues there. First of all, the safety of learners, obviously, part of our concern. We stress heavily the importance of health and safety and safeguarding, and obviously, as a committee would certainly recognize, it's not just learners, it's all site users, so that would be staff and visitors to school premises, so we want to make sure that all of those are safe. In addition to that, with regard to how seriously we take this issue, extremely seriously, you've alluded to, Chair, a very tragic incident that occurred in the local authority many years ago. Again, that was awful, tragic, and clearly, we want to do everything possible to keep all site users safe, and that's paramount, absolutely. With regard to assurance, I can give you assurance that we take this very seriously, I can give you assurance that we direct schools to follow all necessary legislation and compliance. Obviously, as this committee will be aware, there are certain responsibilities placed on schools and their governing bodies to monitor compliance, so again, part of that would be. So again, I'm more than happy, in line with Councillor Martin Williams' question, to dip test, in fact, provide assurance on all of the areas covered by the mini-person query, and come back to this committee with that assurance. And where we do see gaps, and they should be extremely theory from the end of the moment, obviously, we'll seek to eradicate those before we come back to the next committee. Okay, thank you. Anything else on the transport issue? The final point from me before Martin comes in on one of the other things is, Lindsay, you will be aware, and again, not saying this is you specifically, but at the last committee meeting in April, I did request a member of your staff to be present at the meeting to deal with these issues, because again, we knew they were going to come up. No one from the directorate turned up whatsoever. And again, you know, as I've just said to the chief exec, I'm not going to accept that anymore. If we make a request for someone to a turn up, then they turn up, whether it's yourself or whether it's a member of your team. What I don't like, and I'm telling you now, if I was chief exec, I wouldn't like it. I'm not chief exec for this authority. I'm chair now of governance and audit. I would not accept an officer not turning up to a meeting where there's been a request made to deal with questions. And clearly that's why you're here again, this time again, to answer these questions. So I'm just making the point. It affects you this time, but it may affect other directors in future. Do not ignore the request for sending someone along to a meeting just to answer the questions, because it will be dealt with quite forcibly. Is that okay? Lindsay? Thank you, chair. First of all, just to reiterate the formal apologies I provided for the last meeting. I couldn't attend the last meeting. I was attending a regional partnership board meeting at the same time, so I couldn't make it. One of the things you will see within the corporate risk assessment is the lean management structure this directorate has. You will be aware, chair, that currently we have four senior managers within the directorate. Again, that is challenging. There is no excuse. We do need to make sure that we get representation at that meeting, so I do apologize. But again, I would obviously note the fact that it is very difficult sometimes, especially with quite short notice, to attend certain meetings. But I accept the points you made, chair. I do apologize. I will make sure that we do better in the future. No, that's okay. But just remember, this is a statutory commission of this committee of this council. This is the thing, with all due respect, you would not turn up at an education committee if you'd been requested to turn up. So I accept the apology, but you do need to send someone of appropriate level to come and answer the question. So thank you for that. Okay, I understand you've got another meeting to go to now, Lindsay. So that's it. We're not going to ask any more questions on that. So thank you very much for coming along. Thank you, chair. Thank you. Okay, Martin. Thank you, chair. It's on item six. I think we're all aware that we've been under strength with our lay membership contingent on the committee for at least seven months. There is a process in train to recruit someone to fill the vacancy, one of four. I think I made the point previously that it's essential that we do so as soon as we can, but also have due regard for the fact that the gender balance isn't there at the moment, and we do need to encourage more women to come forward. Is it possible to have an update on the situation, please? I can confirm that that advert is now live. I've got the link to it, and I'm happy to circulate it to all members of committee. And actually, I'd encourage you to circulate it to people who you may well be interested in that appointment. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Caris. Kind of an indication of the timescale that we work into now. It's out for advert now for three weeks, and then we will be prioritizing the shortlisting and the interviewing soon after that as we can. Okay, if there are no other questions or comments on that report, the recommendation is that we note the action report, and obviously, we provided comments, and that can be minted because obviously, we've got comments from the director. I formally move, Chair. Thank you, Richard. Anyone can have a seconder, please? Thank you, Martin. Anyone against? No? Okay, thank you very much. Next item on the agenda is the Audit Wales Governance and Audit Committee reports, item 7. David or Samantha, is it? Thank you, Chair. I'll ask my colleague, David, just to provide the committee with a quick update of the financial audit work. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, all. So, this report provides an overview of our work program. I'll pick up the first section, which deals with the financial audit work. The annual audit summary for 2023 has been prepared. That's been agreed with management, and we will bring that through to the next governance and audit committee. Looking at the financial audit work, then the audit of the Council's 23/24 financial statements, our audit planning work has been commenced. We are now waiting for the draft set of financial statements from the Council, and the intention is to audit those through to the statutory deadline of the 30th of November. The same goes then for the two limited assurance reviews relating to Coy Church, Crematorium, and Porthcawl Harbour. Finally, an update on the certification of the Council's grants for 22/23. We finished our certification work there, certified the housing benefits subsidy claim, the national domestic rates claim, and the teacher's pensions return. So, all that work is complete for 22/23. At that point, I'll hand over to Sam, but I'll be happy to take any questions at the end. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, David. Thank you, Chair. So, in terms of the performance audit work, obviously this is at a point in time, at quarter four, and as usual, I'll assume that all committee members have read this particular item. So, I will provide an update on work since the last quarter. So, basically, I know David alluded to the annual audit summary. We do intend to present that at the next committee alongside the audit plan for 24/25. So, that's our plan for the next committee, and that actually summarizes all of the key findings from our performance audit work for 22/23, which is now complete. So, that will be removed from the update from future reports. So, moving on to 23/24, just to say that we are now drafting the wellbeing objective setting report. So, we are on target to issue that as a draft, hopefully by the end of this month. Just to say that the focus of the thematic review, commissioning, and contract management, that has slightly changed, and the scope of that now is focusing solely on commissioning, and we are planning on meeting the timescale stated. The thematic review on financial sustainability, we are currently drafting that report. So, again, we are on target to meet that timetable. And the local project, a review of decision-making arrangements is currently underway. So, there's nothing more I was planning to say in terms of this update, but again, Chair, more than happy to take any questions. Thank you, Sam. Do we have any questions from anyone? Martin, is it a legacy? Yeah, okay. Any questions, anyone? No, just a couple. Oh, Councillor Smith, sorry. Yeah, thank you, Chair. As a new member to this committee, I just wondered, and it's more sort of for the bench really, what mechanisms other than this committee are there to ensure that the Council implements the recommendations from Audit Wales, and how is compliance tracked and reported back to us? I'll take that one if you like, Chair. We've had that discussion actually at this committee on a number of occasions to make sure that things are dealt with in the appropriate place. So, if it's appropriate, we do try and refer them through to the relevant overview and scrutiny committee. So, if it's a particular service issue, it will go into the relevant service scrutiny committee. If it's more corporate, it will go into COSC. And then what we will be doing is reporting back here. I think it's on a six-monthly basis in relation to those recommendations, if anything has come up in any of those scrutiny committees, which you would need to be aware of. So, we have quite recently actually agreed that before recording process across all of our scrutiny committees. It's very important. It's a tracking we need from this committee to make sure recommendations are dealt with. Obviously, as Cara said, you know, we're here to ensure that assurance is being given. The committee's got a very, you know, prescribed role in looking at improving councils, you know, output in what they do and looking at new suggestions. And obviously, we as a governance and order committee just need to ensure that they are dealt with because as night follows day, if you get a reinspection, the first thing lots of the regulators do is look at previous reports. And then all of a sudden you're found wanting because you haven't dealt with a report or a recommendation, a sort of 2018 report. So, it's very important that they're dealt with, they're tracked, and then we get an outcome at the end of it. So, very important question. Thank you. Any other questions from anyone? Now, only a couple from me, Sam, in regards to the reports we get from Audit Wales where it says completed, can we have a date when the report was issued underneath? So, rather than completed, is it, is there an opportunity to say that report issued whatever date it was? You're not the first set of Audit Wales officials. I've raised that with, I raised it in the veil last week with Samantha, Samantha, Sarah. So, it's, you know, it's just get those dates so we know what's, what's going on. Second question is in regards to the governance and fire rescue service. Again, it says field work plan in Bridgend, none. Again, I raised the same issue in the veil that the governance of the fire and rescue services rests with the constituent authorities and obviously, I think Martin was the member of the fire and rescue service. So, I was just wondering what input does Martin or the council had in regards to that review. I'm told, I am told from Audit Wales from another authority that all the elected representatives on the committee were written to and asked for their comments and I believe the council's been written to as well. But it's important in my view that the council's views pour into it because obviously you pay a levy fee which is quite not in, you know, quite substantial. It's not insignificant and therefore it's for the elected representatives. So, I'm just wanting that reassurance that Martin and Mark has had that letter and the council's responded back. Martin? Yes, thank you, chair. The letter was received from the minister yesterday. So, I've only just picked that up, but it's a letter which invites comments back and some feedback. So, I will be making sure that I'll be feeding back into the process. What I would add is that's come, you know, some considerable time since we were, to use the term of the Welsh government, suspended from our activities. So, it's, you know, at least that is some positive move and for the first time, apart from receiving the P45, I've had some correspondence back. Thank you. Sam? Yes. So, first of all, in terms of the dates, that is not a problem. So, I'll make sure that that happens for future committees. And again, in terms of that assurance, I have actually spoken to some of my colleagues and basically all former members of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority and all current members of the other two Fire and Rescue Authorities were sent a survey to complete, but basically so we could obtain their perspectives on the governance arrangements. So, local members from each council would have been engaged. And we also conducted a number of interviews with some councillors who held or currently hold some specific roles on them, Fire and Rescue Authorities, such as their authority chairs and committee chairs. So, there has been, you know, that level of inclusion. Yeah. Thank you for that, Sam. You'll know that I've been beating the drum on this because I think it was important that local authorities added input into it. So, that's really good. The only other one is the Financial Constraints Discretionary Local Government Services. And again, that piece of work is not started yet and the timetable is to be confirmed. But the only comments I would make on that one is that there needs to be an understanding that whilst discretionary local government services don't have to be provided, they are discretionary. Not providing some of them can have a huge impact on lots of other budgets. So, if we look at leisure, leisure services is a discretionary function. You don't have to provide leisure services. But if you imagine, if you withdrew leisure services from, you know, not funded by a local authority, the impact that would have on health and wellbeing and the health service itself would be absolutely ginormous. And I think there needs to be a little bit of thought given there because in some respects, that should be a thematic review across the public health, you know, health board agenda because they utilise lots of leisure services to provide some of the doctors, training facilities and that. So, it's important that's addressed. Is that what was meant by that, Sam, do you know? I will be honest, Chair, I haven't been involved in the scoping of this review, but I would say, you know, as an observation, in Bridget, that is how your leisure services have been branded as more of a preventative service to support a statutory service. So, all I can do is, you know, as you said about banging the drum for this to be understood internally and especially for those specific circumstances for Bridget. Yeah, no, that's lovely. And, you know, you never know, perhaps there could be a recommendation that health contribute a little bit more to the leisure service and not just local authority provided. So, yeah, no, that's okay. Good. Okay. Any other questions? Any comments? No. So, the recommendation is that we note the report and clearly we'll be having updates, again, as we normally do from yourself and David. Someone prepare to move, please? I'll formally move, Chair. Thank you, Richard. Seconder, Martin. Anyone against? No, that's carried. Thank you very much, Sam and David. If we go next on the agenda then is the going concern assessment. Thank you, Joe. I have purposes of recording Nigel Smith, Group Manager, Chief Accountant. The purposes of this report is to inform the Committee of the Section 1511 assessment of the Council as a going concern for the purposes of reducing the 2023-24 Statement of Accounts. This is a report that is brought annually to this Committee. The concept of a going concern assumes that local authorities, their functions and services will continue in operation for the foreseeable future. And this assumption underpins our accounts preparation, which are drawn up under the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy's Code of Practice on Local Authority Accounting. And the reason for that assumption reflects the economic and statutory environment in which all local authorities operate. The report sets out the position for Progen County Borough Council and it looks at a number of key headings are set out in paragraph 2.3 and further discussed in section 3 of the report. The recommendation, if I may, Chair, is that the Governance and Order Committee accepts the outcome of the assessment of the Council's going concern status for the purpose of preparing a 2023-24 Statement of Accounts. Thank you. Thank you. Questions? Councillor Clark. Yes, thank you. I just wanted to ask on a clarification really on 3.1.2 regarding the overspend in the current financial year. It mentions there about drawing down from earmarked reserves. Can I just understand, if it's coming from earmarked reserves, obviously those reserves are earmarked for something, so what happens to those that it's been earmarked for? Thank you. Should I take that one, Chair? I think as it's saying there, when we wrote this report, we were anticipating an overspend and we've been reporting that to you throughout the last financial year. We will have to draw down on earmarked reserves and what we do is reprioritise, really, and the assessment will be around priorities for the Council but also around risk. So some of them will be possibly about reducing some of the earmarked reserves that we have because we believe we could reduce the level in there and still not open up the Council to too much risk and others will have to be in agreement that actually balancing last year's budget is more important than the original reason for that earmarked reserve having been set up. The only other question, Nigel, in 3.5.1, it says, and again, I need to be corrected here, that the Coder-Corborough governance was updated during the financial year and approved by Cabinet in November. Did it come here? Yes, Chair. We brought it here and that led to the update and then we talked to Cabinet then. Obviously, the other question I was a little bit concerned about was 3.4.1 and obviously we don't know where we're at yet, which was the overspend of 10.932 million and obviously appreciation fully the position local government is in regards to its budget and the call on it from social care primarily, but other areas, we will only know that presumably once we get the draft accounts finalised, I assume, what the overspend was. We're finalising that now, Chair, and we will be doing a formal report into Cabinet and Council before the summer recess. Any other questions? Oh, Councilor Martin-Hughes. Yes, thank you, Chair. It's important for us to formally note our statement. That's been a going concern, of course. My question is about any feedback that we might have received probably informally at this stage from the local authorities in Wales. Can you give an indication, you know, what their positions are yet or is it too early? You mean generally around the financial position? It's too early, really. We're all at that point where we're just about closed. I would suggest, actually, Bridgette may be slightly ahead of the curve in some of that, so it's too early. We have to submit our draft accounts now through to Audit Wales by the end of June, so certainly by the end of this month, we'll have a much clearer position, really, of the position across Wales. I think, though, anecdotally, certainly the discussions on the professional networks are last year was very, very difficult for every local authority in Wales with the same level of pressures and demands that we're experiencing here being experienced elsewhere. Thank you for that, Caris. Councilor Simon Griffiths. Yes, thanks, Chair. I would be concerned on this about the clarity of the difference between this year, the previous year and the previous year. We've only really got some figures for the general fund, some figures for the overall earmarked reserves. What I can't see from this is a trend line. I can't see really a projection. My concern here is we've got 10 million overspend. We've got 10 million in the council fund, which basically blows that out. We don't seem to have identified where that money is coming from. He says we'll draw down from earmarked and all general reserves, which seems a little bit wishy-washy for this point of the cycle. I'd really much prefer to have something a little bit more projection. This is a projection about whether we are going concerned. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be absolutely right, but I would have expected something a little bit more definitive about what we think it's going to be. Also, I think a trend line on this would be good. A little graph to say this is where our earmarked reserves have been over a few years. This is where the balance on the general fund has been over the last few years, and this is where we projected we'll be at least over the next year and possibly further than that. The general fund is our major contingency across the council, and I don't see clarity or whether that being protected. I think that's certainly a relevant fact for our ongoing concern statement. I think at the time of writing this report, we're still working through those final details really, so I haven't got any particular figures to put in here for you. They will be all in that report that we bring, and we will be clear where we've drawn that money from. Your comment around the council fund, I think we have to be careful we don't raid that. In fact, my strong advice is that if we do reduce that with a mindful of, we won't reduce it by anything more than we have to on the basis that that is our running fund, if you like, for the council. So really what we will be looking at is, as I've already said, really looking back into those earmarked reserves. But when we do the full report through to Cabinet Council, we will detail exactly where we've taken that money from. If I may come back, Chair. I think what you said there is very clear, Caris. I think that would be useful to see in this report to say that that is the intent to minimize the reduction in the council fund. So I think that's an important statement as we go forward, because it actually protects our common concern position. Thanks, Simon. Councillor Smith. Thank you, Chair. Another quite broad question. But how does the council plan to enhance its governance framework on financial oversight to prevent future overspending and ensure more accurate budget forecasts in the future? We're always looking to improve and to strengthen. I think the pressures that this council and every other council is facing from a financial point of view are completely unprecedented. Therefore, we're already saying that we need to enhance what we're doing. So for instance, I've already given an undertaking that we will enhance our monitoring during this financial year. We're also, will we do more work behind the scenes on picking up variances very early so that we can take the necessary action with the relevant managers to address those variances as soon as we can. So I think just by reassurance really, Councillor Smith, we're already looking at that. I think from previous reports that you've had both from Audit Wales and from the internal audit service have always been very positive about the governance structures within Bajen, but we can always improve. So we will be putting, as I said, steps in place this year to make sure that we pick up on any variances as soon as we possibly can. Any other questions? No, any comments? I've got a couple of comments to make from what's been said. Clearly, local finance is extremely challenging. It has been for the last 10 plus years, but more recently it's been even more challenging because of the no cost uplift or very minimal settlement. And if things go as they are predicted, the next two years likely to be cash flat is the indication, which means that's going to be, you can call them efficiencies if you want, but actually they're going to be significant cuts in service delivery. I think the assurance we get in regards to the finances of the authority, whether you like it or not, is they are being managed appropriately. And that's what we require. Clearly, Caris reports together with the chief exec to council and cabinets on a regular basis in regards to where the financial position is. And when they set the budget, the council sets the budget back in whenever it was March, there is a medium term financial plan. So that will give you some indication where the council is going to be in five years' time. And I doubt in any council's plan it ends up in a surplus situation. It will always end up in a deficit, no matter what size authority you are, whether you're the biggest or the smallest. The smallest authority in Wales has got about a £13 million deficit at this moment for the next three financial years. And as you go up, you look at Caris, it's hundreds of millions per short. And I think the difficulty is, until such time as that's recognised, it's extremely challenging. And again, I'm not making any party political broker. Local authorities always get the brunt of it because they get lots of statutory requirements from Welsh government. Again, an issue which I've picked up with Audit Wales last week in a conference with no additional funding. So you've got statutory requirements to deliver ex-services, but no one gives you any money to do it. So what you have to do then, unfortunately, in my language, you rob Peter to pay Paul, with the effect that you get a detrimental service. And we're going to come on to some of that in, I think, in some of the later reports. So I think it's a keen one to keep an eye on the budget. And again, you've got unforeseen costings coming out. I know Bridgend's had issues around social care and increases in that. Every authority's got it. It's not just Bridgend. And I think it's going to end unless you get an input of finance. But it does need prudent finances. But it means politicians making bold decisions to balance the books, because you can't do everything. And there needs to be a recognition that you can't do everything nowadays. And in some respects, that's where politicians, being the ambassadors out there, need to actually give the message to say, you can't do this because we haven't got the money. It can be difficult on occasions. But the reality is, you ain't got enough money to do everything. So from my view, I think, you know, Caris and the team do an excellent job. They give us that reassurance. And again, we're at the end of this process. But mark my words, if there are issues in any of the reports that come up which should be challenged, then we will challenge them. Martin? Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Chairman. I do support everything you said there in terms of we have to cut a cloth accordingly. And, you know, if you're a politician, you know, to lead is to choose. I do think, however, whilst we do send that message, it is incredibly important that we do recognize the importance of accurate and timely forecasting. And I know this is a going concern statement, but it won't surprise Caris that I have concern, but I also would direct that towards the capital program. And when times are hard, forecasting and accuracy of forecasting is more important than ever. So whilst I support everything, I just want to reiterate my commitment to that particular hobby house of mine. Thank you, Martin. And that's what you're there for. So if there are no other comments, you see the recommendation that we accept the outcome of the assessments of the council going concern status for the purpose of preparing the 23-24 statement of council. Someone prepared to move, please. Forming move, Chair. Thank you. Can I have a seconder, please? Thank you. Anyone against? No. Thank you very much. Next item of the agenda is the corporate risk assessment. Item nine. That's me. Thank you, Chair. For the sake of the new members on this committee, we bring the corporate risk assessment into governance and audit committee at least twice a year. So the purpose of this report is to provide you with an update on the current corporate risk assessment and the level of risk that the council is currently managing. So we do consider it and update it on a regular basis. And the terms of reference of this particular committee require you to review and scrutinize those reports. So the revised corporate risk assessment is attached today at appendix A to your report. Currently, when you looked at it back in January, it was agreed there were 10 risks on the corporate risk register. And each one of these has now been reviewed by the corporate management. And all the risks are remaining in the high category. We are, however, bringing two changes to you today to consider and hopefully approve. One is the first one on the list, which was COR 2019-01, which is about the setting of a balanced budget. And it's recommended that the risk level for this one is actually raised to reflect the challenge in financial position that the council is in. So we've suggested that that gets increased to a risk of 25. And there is a new one at the end of the risk register, which is COR 2020-01. And that's about business continuity. We have a particular issue at the moment in relation to the implementation of two key corporate ICT systems, one of which is in education and the other one in social care. The risks in the social care one in particular, because we are using a platform that will go out to support. And it's about how we actually procure that and move it forward. So those two have come forward and we've put it together as one around business continuity about really the planning, implementation, and capacity to support these kind of big changes at the current time, bearing in mind what's already been said by my colleagues on the management board this morning around capacity issues within the council. So I think the overall risk level for the council and that we continue to manage is high with pressure on our finances, increased demand for help and support, workforce pressures and pressures in the economy generally, which are all impacted on the council in a number of different ways. We also have the risk of possible supplier failure and increased costs for the services that we are commissioning. So these are all reflected in the corporate risk assessment that you have in front of you this morning. And they've been taken into account in the risks that we in the scoring that we've put there. So Chair, I'd just like to take you to recommendations at section nine of the report where it's recommended that governance and audit committee do consider the corporate risk assessment and also that you consider and agree the amendments to the risks as detailed within the overall report. Thank you Chair. Thank you Charis for that. Are there any questions? Good morning Mr Chair and committee members. My observation on the corporate risk assessment is that a good job was done. But in terms of the recommendation, on the budget item which has gone to a higher level of risk, I'd mention it actually because well done in terms of the raw risk. We have rated it lower than the residual risk and that's actually an anomaly. So because the inherent risk is actually or the raw risk is meant to be higher and our actions are meant to reduce that risk. So when we have a raw risk of 20 and then having 25 as the ultimate risk after our action plan then it shows that our action plans are actually not addressing anything. So the point is either we are addressing and raising the raw risk to 25 and then making the residual risk 25 or there'll be there's something we need to do. But as it is we can actually, it's not something to be, I'm struggling to actually support that action plans is even making the risk to be worse. So I think it's something we need to, that Carries have to look at. So whether we can do it here or they're going to convert to bring something that talks to rationale and I also look at even the other ones as well. So it seems that the controls or the actions that we have for the other items are not really having any impact on the risk that we have, that we are tracking. So we're having raw risk, having the same rating as the residual risk. So I think it's something we really need to look at. It is technically an issue that the main thing we have to look at because it seems controls are not actually having any impact on the risks that we have. Thank you. Thank you very much for raising that. I think actually it's a very valid issue. What we're actually showing in the raw risk is the risk that we reported when we last came to you. So and then I think it's probably a presentational issue. I'd suggest maybe what we need to have is what the risk was last time you approved it. Review the raw risk, if you like, and then the actions and then tell you where we think or where we would recommend the risk sits now. So I think you've picked up an important issue there really. It does, if you read it logically, it doesn't make sense, does it really, that we've got a raw risk and putting actions in place and we've made the risk more difficult. So I think it's a presentational issue. I think it's a valid point and maybe that's what we need to look at for the next meeting is we can have what we reported last time to you and then we can show you what the changes is, the actions and what that means to the residual risk. I think that might help explain that but it is a valid point. Borodim? Yes, it is. I recommend that you consider sharing the residual risk theme because that's likely a risk register in there. So the risk register shows how the raw risk, not necessarily the previous thing that have been reported. And I'm happy to have a conversation outside of the call with you. I think what was done is correct in terms of what is the raw risk or the inherent risk. I think that is the residual risk that is actually a bit of a challenge. So, and if that's actually what the intention is, I would, I'll recommend that that is actually, that should be looked at. It's not really, we can have a column for what it is the last time and I'll be column for what it is now. But we need to know what the risk is in its natural state. Before we had controls or action plans and then know what's actually residual. Just wanted to first to know that. So I think it's something we probably have to speak to maybe consultants or experts on. But as it is, it shouldn't really, raw risk should be seen while we're actually presenting this sort of report. And showing the action plans as well. Thank you. I think that's a very valid comment and I will take that away and look at it for the next time that we bring it to committee. Yeah. Thanks, Caris. Are there any other questions? Richard? From each end, just to be pedantic, can we have, we've had a copy of written corporate risk assessments and I got bifocals and I can't even see them in my bifocals. Can we have them a bit bigger than the writing because we can't read it. I will send you the spreadsheet and then you can blow it up on screen as you like. I'll do that. Thanks, Caris. Any other, Kelsa Smith? Yeah, just a quick one regarding Core 2024/01. And it may be that no one here is able to answer, but it was just about the business continuity due to the changes in the ICT systems and wondering if there are any contingency plans in place if the procurement or implementation of these systems are delayed or the technical issues that arise. There is a lot of contingency work going on in relation to the social care one. This is being dealt with actually on a regional basis so that because the system will hopefully operate across social care, but also across health. So we are dealing this with our other colleagues, Rondekanetaf and Murtha and Krumtaf-Morganug on this. So there is a lot of contingency planning going on at the moment around this particular issue. I think the reason it has come on the risk assessment really is that the consequences of us not implementing this correctly are significant because of safeguarding issues and the quantity and detail of information that we hold in order to manage those risks. So that is why it has come up onto the risk assessment. Richard? Thank you, Chair. Very quickly, can I just pick up the point from Krumtaf-Morganug? And that is a bit of a hairy reading where they are saying that people are in hospital and they are waiting for beds outside, but people are dying. So I don't know what we can do about that as a local authority. I think, you know, we are working closely with them. We have got a committee meeting tomorrow, but it is just harrowing to read what is on you. You know what I mean? I don't know how we get around that. I don't know perhaps if Caris or somebody wants to comment on that. I think, again, that is the one where actually there is an awful lot of work going on, I would say, on a daily basis with work between the health board and ourselves with regards to how we assist the flow of people out of hospital in a timely manner. And I know that colleagues in social care spend an awful lot of time planning on that. There will always be instances where that is difficult. And I think the services reported previously to you issues around capacity within things like the domiciliary care market and the ability to purchase the care. But I know that the social care teams work very hard with health to minimise the impact of that as much as they possibly can. Thank you for that response. But, Caris, do we know from the CUMM staff, are they working with developers to assess where appropriate buildings like surgeries or hospitals are built pre-planning? Because I think things need to be looked at further down the line for accommodation and stuff like that. So if they are not dealing with people that are planning to put planning applications in on ground, so there is a problem here, right, because I've got a question to ask tomorrow regarding that issue. And I think we need to strengthen that up. I don't know which way we can get them to do it, but they're not engaging, right? They're saying they are, but they're not. So I don't know how we can deal with that. The problem is, Richard, that there's a bit outside this provision of this. Clearly, maybe those questions should be posed to the Social Services Committee or the Social Services Scrutiny Committee because the real issues, if you raise there, are correct. Quite disturbing, really. And I think, surely, I would have thought you would do your justice tomorrow and raise the question again. But maybe it's a question that needs to be posed somewhere else, and maybe Mark or Caris could raise it with the Director of Social Services to see what can be done. Any other questions? No. I've got a comment, unless there are any other comments. My comment is in regards to WICIS. Clearly, as you quite rightly say, WICIS is extremely important. My understanding is it's not going to be supported beyond December
• And clearly, most authorities in Wales are working to resolve it because my understanding is only 14 authorities in Wales utilise it with some of the health boards. But for me, to reduce it to a 20 risk is not on. It should be a 25 risk because it is a real risk to these authorities and partners. The narrative says people are working with Welsh government now. There's funding in place. And whilst funding is placed now, we've got to go out for a system to be introduced. So that's got to be procured. In reality, you're only 18 months away now to it falling over. And again, even once you get into the procurement process, you've got to buy the system and then every authority that is going to join it, be it health or local government, needing to get on board. And again, the concern I've got in regards to regional proposals is whatever proposal there is, I don't know whether there's one or two systems out there on the market, is whichever one is bought, they actually speak to one another because young people and adults actually cross borders. So what you don't want is a system in Nairn Bevan, which doesn't speak to the system in Cum Taf, that doesn't speak to the system in Cardiff and the Vale. And all of a sudden you get major chaos. So that's what concerns me. I'm just uncertain about whether the score should be 20 or 25 carats. I would ask that it be reconsidered. As I said, you've only got 18 months left. Whatever happens, you're going to run two systems in tandem. You've got a data match and you've got all that to happen as well. I'm not an IT expert, but 18 months ago, knowing that whilst you may have funding in place, getting it all up and running is going to take a long time. Is that risk a really high risk for the authority and your partners? So can I ask it be reconsidered to go back to 25? Because for me, it's a real issue. It is an issue for the authority and that's why it's what we're suggesting. It comes on to the corporate risk assessment at this point. If I may, Chair, maybe I could take it away and I can talk to the relevant directors and have that discussion. And if committee are happy and they think your point is well made and we increase it, if committee are happy, therefore that I then increase it after I've had those discussions. I don't think I need to declare an interest, but this issue is on Newports and it is on the veils where I chair. Newports has currently put it on this register exactly the same as BridgeEnd has done. It's put it on a score with 20. They believe it's a potential risk, but they did agree with me at the committee meeting last week that it's a real risk and therefore they're going to look at putting up the 25. BridgeEnd has got it as 25 at the moment. I think everyone's in the same boat in South East Wales in reality and it does need to be because the impact on the service clients will be immense. If we get it wrong, again it will be immense and if you could, that's great. Thank you very much. Are there any other comments? No, we see the recommendations that we consider corporate risk assessment, so I think we note the corporate risk assessment and we agree the amendments to the risk details in paragraph 3.2. Someone prepared to move please? I'll formally move that chair. Richard, can I have a seconder? Thank you Martin. Anyone against? Nope, thank you. Next item on the agenda is the audit of Wales audit inquiries to those charged with governance and management for 23/24 audit. Is that you, David? I'd probably take this one. Nigel, sorry. Nigel, sorry, my apologies. No problem, thanks chair. The purpose of the report is to provide the committee with Audit Wales' audit inquiries to those charged with governance and management letter which has been attached at appendix A to the report and ask the committee to consider the responses that have been put forward. The appendices to the letter set out a number of questions to management and those charged with governance and this is a letter that we receive annually as part of the audit planning towards the statement of accounts audit. Audit Wales have requested that the completed responses be returned to them by the end of this month, 30th of June and the committee is asked to consider and approve the responses. So if I were to take you to the recommendation, it'd be recommended that the committee agrees the responses in the letter as attached at the appendix. Thank you. Thank you, Nigel. Are there any questions? Nope, any comments? I've got one comment to make and this is being very pedantic now and this is not for you. This is for Audit Wales. In question 23 and 28 it says how does the audit committee in your role as since 2022 local authorities have not had audit committees. They've now been reconfigured as governance and audit committees so the question is actually wrong. So I'm just wondering whether someone could just address that David in Audit Wales to pick up that we are now governance and audit and not an audit committee. We're not going back three years or whatever. I would be extremely grateful. Your point is noted chair and I will feed that back to our teams. Thank you for that. Martin. Yes, thank you chairs. Just picking up on your initial comments at the start of the meeting and acknowledging that there has been a churn in membership of this committee as well, quite substantial mid-term and it's important that we as members you know kept up to speed on the particulars of the subject area. So it might mean some additional training required or extra briefings so that we're all as one and up to speed. Thanks. Thank you for that Martin. We did discuss it, Karis and I, in a different place when we had an Audit Wales sort of seminar so I think it continues in continuous training is very important even for us who've been on it a long time just to keep us up to speed as with treasury management on all the rest. So it may be useful for the new members if you wish to attend that'd be great. There is a training session next week on the 13th of June with DWP because there were some questions come from this committee some time ago last year I think it was in regards to DWP so hopefully if you've not already got that request there is a training session in June and we can I'm sure get you sent that out if you haven't got it already. Okay any other comments? No. You see the recommendation then that we agree the responses to the Audit Wales audit inquiries as per the letter of tax. Someone please move. Thank you Martin. Can I have a seconder? Thank you. Anyone against? Nope. Thank you very much. We've got item 11 then is the annual internal audit report 23/24. Thank you. Thank you chair Andrew Wathen head of the regional internal service. This is one of the key reports we're bringing to committee on an annual basis and the purpose of it is to provide governance committee with my annual opinion on the council's control environment in terms of governance risk management and internal control and to outline the work we've undertaken during the year and the performance of the team. The headlines are positive in that overall there is a reasonable level of assurance across the organization in terms of the internal control environment governance arrangements and risk management process which is which are in place and also good news is that we've covered 90 percent of our audit plan so I'll come into that in a little bit more detail but the one of the main reasons for the report is also to comply with the public sector internal standards where I'm required to provide an annual report and updates committee in terms of the effectiveness of the council's framework for governance risk management internal control present the summary of the work we've undertaken we do provide a quarterly update on that as well so members should be familiar with the work that we're bringing to you this is a conclusion of all work we've undertaken in 23 24 identify any issues we do so when we provide limited assurance to committee and a summary of why we felt they were limited assurance and make ensure that we are compliant with public sector internal audit standards. So in terms of the the report itself chair I'm not going to go through it in detail but I will give a brief overview if I may and to provide members with a bit of background in terms of how your internal audit is provided at the end and we are internal to the organization but we are running a regional internal audit service it was developed in 2019 with four partners and hosted by the Vale of Glamorgan that's continued and it's due for a it's five year renewal as of now 2024. Just to give members a heads up that RCT have formally given notice that they do not wish to continue the partnership and have gone back to an in-house provision for their internal service so from 24 25 we will be adopting a three-partner model. So overall I have to give an opinion on the adequacy of the control environment within the organization and we do that by undertaking individual audit jobs as outlined by the agreed plan by this committee. We provide an opinion which is substantial reasonable limited or no assurance and the definition of that is set out at 2.2. For 23 24 in table two there's an outline of the opinions which we have issued so 41 opinions issued overall broken down into substantial reasonable limited but with no no assurance so again a positive place to be. You'll see from that table that 85 percent of your opinions issued are positive. In terms of the limited assurances I'll come to those in a bit more detail later in the report here. From figure one the pie chart graph indicates that there is a positive level of assurance across the organization in terms of there are a lot more reasonables and substantials than any other opinions. For comparison purposes we've also included the details for 22 23 set out in table three. It's very much of a muchness and there's an increase in terms of the opinions we've issued albeit a slight decrease in the positive opinions which we've issued. In terms of coverage of the audit plan the agreed audit plan which was agreed by committee that set out in 2.6 and we've put a table in there to demonstrate that of the opinion work we've undertaken we've completed 80 percent of the work as intended. Overall including non-opinion work we've achieved 90 percent of that plan. 41 opinion related jobs have gone to either final or draft report as at the end of March. There was some work that we started but didn't quite achieve an opinion so that will be carried forward into 24 25 and there were some audit jobs in the 23 24 plan which were not started and they will be carried forward into 24 25 plan as well. A report which will be coming to committee later this morning. In terms of the limited reports most of these have already been presented into committee during the year in our quarterly updates chair but we we covered school vehicles, security access to council buildings, adult placement and shared services, St Mary's catholic school, procurement tender evaluation and award and recycling and waste management. So those are where we had identified greater weaknesses and strengths. We felt that the risk was outweighed the positive elements of the control in place and therefore have got an action plan agreed with the operational manager to make the improvements and we will be reporting our updates and progress against implementation of recommendation as we progress through the year. When we have limited opinions chair we will follow that up as well within a six-month period. So any limiteds within 23 24 if they haven't already been done so will be incorporated in our 24 25 plan and will be followed up and reported back into committee accordingly. As part of our reporting process we identify recommendations. As mentioned already today we determine whether they are high, medium or low in terms of implementation of an action to address the weaknesses which we've identified. Table five sets out all the recommendations we've made in 23 24. High, medium and low total of 230 and split over a range of different activities. In terms of the follow-up situations here we will follow up high and medium recommendations throughout the year and report on progress and as I said any limited assurance opinions we will go back and do a follow-up audit specifically. With low recommendations we leave that the owners on to operational managers and we for them to implement as agreed in their action plans. We do get involved in counter forward work and we work very closely with the council's senior fraud investigator so there's some information around the aspects of fraud in paragraph five and we do coordinate the national fraud initiative which is a national national initiative covering 1200 organisations across the UK. It's a data matching exercise and we can provide further information in due course in year if required. There will be a separate annual corporate fraud report presented into committee later in the year and that will be coordinated by Simon's the senior fraud investigator and ourselves into an audit. In terms of key performance measures and client satisfaction surveys we do send out to our auditees a questionnaire as to whether they've been satisfied with the service or not and quite surprisingly we get a positive response considering that we're not always given a positive opinion. Unfortunately the return rate wasn't brilliant being 46 percent in 23/24 lower than 22/23 but overall it was a 95 percent satisfaction rate and we've just put some comments down there in terms of the feedback we get. We invite the auditees to provide us with comments of how well they felt the audit went or didn't go and we'll take that on board and help in terms of any improvements which we need to make. We take on board positive and negative comments. In terms of delivering an internal service we need to maintain a professional and competent service and we encourage all our staff to go through professional training. We've got two graduate auditors on board and they go through a professional qualification which is SIPFA and just for the information shared we've had five requests from current members of the team to pursue professional training into 24/25 and we would always encourage and support CPD for our staff to do that. We also have enable them to do internal training and there's a list of some of the training which has been attended during the year. At the outset I mentioned that we'd achieved 90 percent of the audit plan that's set out in table 6 paragraph 8.1. 90 percent of the plan completed, significantly better and improved on last year's performance of 79 and significantly higher than the Welsh average. Recommendations accepted, this is made, are 100 percent in which end against an average of 98 percent. The trick is there to get those recommendations implemented and that's why we do the follow-up process as outlined previously. Again we'll be reporting back into committee our progress of that in due course and I've already mentioned that the auditee is being satisfied with our level of audit service. Some information, background information about public sector internal audit standards here, we need to comply with those. They are important, it's the way we operate, it's the way that all internal audit teams across the public sector in the UK must operate and we need to demonstrate we are compliant. We do an annual internal assessment to make sure we are compliant and every five years we're required to undertake an external assessment with a peer review within the Welsh G4O group and just for information that was undertaken and finalised in 23/24 by our peer colleague and provided assurance that the regional internal audit service and internal audit from Agend is fully conformant with the standards and that report was presented to all of our partner governance and audit committees in 2023/24. As a regional internal service we need to be professional, approachable, flexible, independent, albeit we are internal to the organisation and objective as we need to maintain our critical friend status. So we go through a recruitment process as and when there's vacancies and we're supported by external support as and when required but we will try and minimise that in 24/25. So that all of that feeds into my annual statement which is in section 11 and we've split that over the three elements, risk management, governance arrangements and internal control. As members will see all three have been given a reasonable level of assurance based on the work we've undertaken to in 23/24. That accumulates into the overall opinion which is set out on page 96 of your papers which identifies that that is my opinion and I'm given a reasonable level of assurance with the appropriate definition for Progen Council. Annex 1 of the report identifies the work we've undertaken and the opinions we've issued during the year along with a number of recommendations per individual report. Annex 2 identifies progress against the plan so that is the actual plan that was agreed by committee. The status of whether it's complete or in progress or carried forward with the appropriate opinion and again the recommendations noted. That also includes the non-opinion work we've undertaken during the year. Moving then on to a bit more detail around the recommendation monitoring report. Members will hopefully be familiar with this format of reporting. It's one of the regular reports we're reporting on a quarterly basis of the number of recommendations made, number not agreed and you'll see that there are then which is positive, the number which have been implemented, number which are overdue, very minimal and the number with a future date and we will check that in terms of our monitoring progress as we work through the year. Lastly here Annex 4 is the copy of the questionnaire which we send out to our oddities just for information. So if I could take members back to the recommendation it's for members to consider and note the annual internal audit report for 23-24 including the head of internal audits annual opinion on the adequacy of the effectiveness of the council's framework for governance, risk management and internal control. Happy to take any questions here. Thank you for that Andrew taking us through that report, very comprehensive. Questions Councillor Hughes. Yes thank you chair there's lots of information and there are some issues of concern perhaps so we might want to return to as part of the discussion in terms of questions. If I could ask Andrew to in reference to table six there's an entry in the top sorry the bottom right hand corner where average performance overall for the welsh chief auditors group is shown as 100 percent of clients responses at least satisfied. Our own performance was I forgot this right 94 percent if that's an average of ourselves and other local authorities surely that shouldn't be 100 percent so could we just check that percentage. Thanks Councillor. Yeah that's the information that's collected by the group I think the date at the top might be incorrect but we will check that because it's performance we've reported in Bajen is for 23-24 which is 95 percent the average for 22-23 is 100 percent so different financial years but we will we will check the maths on that. Other questions anyone. Oh Bayadin. Thank you chair. On the on the review that were done for procurement and evaluation on board the outcome is going limited right which is actually not a very or maybe by the metrics maybe I go wrong it's not really a very comforting outcome that we have there and if I take it also to recycle and waste management where income was not recognized and we're actually in a period of austerity it would be a good one actually to know what exactly the the core issues were to the extent that the audit turnouts not so good as expected and I think that yeah I think the details also what it is that has happened or what what are the factors that led to that it's particularly very very good that they are shared with us and we know the exact action plans to make sure that this doesn't occur again and we can address the issues. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Bayadin. I think we've included the summary of why we felt it was a limited opinion as I mentioned already the limited opinions are where we've identified more weaknesses and strengths when we check the the actual control environment the key control objectives in this particular audit so that's why we felt it was a less positive opinion. We do agree the action plan with the operational manager and to take that forward and when the report is then finalized the head of service and director also gets a copy of that as it was limited we will be following this up as a as a second audit and not just relying on management providing us with information to say that they've implemented the recommendations and we'll be reporting back into committee accordingly if there are any issues obviously we'll bring that the attention of committee chair. Yes thanks Andrew. I'm sorry Mr Chair right I think for those sort of audits we need to actually have more details than just the statistics that shows what has been done. I think we should actually get into more details not not the management details not the management details but actually what are the issues so that we can know what exactly is driving those sort of reception and that might not be necessary for you as auditor but I think that the the management or leadership of the council should should provide that to us maybe only separately besides tracking that's been done not not necessary for us to be tracking separately but what to have the details of what exactly has happened and see the actual action plans from mitigating such audit outcome. Thank you. Thanks again for that Biden. Yes our reports are written for the serious managers and directors from an internal perspective and that's why we provide a summary into committee in terms of making sure that the process is in place to address those weaknesses. If members are concerned then we can provide the the agreed action plan into committee next time around and I'll make sure we do that too. Councillor Smith. Thank you Chair yeah I note that the report states 100% of the recommendations have been accepted by management which is great but I wonder if you could tell me what metrics or KPIs are used to measure the impact of these recommendations? In our report, thank you Councillor for the question. In our reports we identify whether there's a weakness or a strength in the in the particular control environment so we're providing a balanced view I think in terms of the overall control environment in a particular area which we're auditing. We identify a risk to that weakness because that exposes the authority to a risk if there's a gap in the controls or a weakness in the controls and we determine whether that's high, medium or low and that is subjective and I agree that and I appreciate that but that is the case for all auditing across the UK within the public sector. We also the risk is it includes the potential impact of not addressing that particular issue and that is then accepted by the serious manager and awareness is given to the head of service and director when we issue the final report. That's as far as we go in terms of the the matrix of defining that particular risk but we do follow it up with evidence to support that recommendation has been implemented to either minimize or eradicate that particular risk. Any other questions? Any comments? I'll make a couple of comments. Firstly Andrew thank you for the report. I think you know we're making good progress you know when you look at 60 audit assignments being completed you know which is a great achievement really considering where we were last year with rejection in staff and and such like so I think the team needs to be complemented there and if you could convey that please. In regards to section three of your reports which sets out the limited reports and the errors that basically are found there I think if we go back to the very beginning of the committee meeting I think Mark those are the areas where committee wanted the heads of service to actually provide their comments on it. Obviously Lindsay has dealt with school vehicles but you've still got issues around the security adult placements Saint Mary's Catholic school the procurement and energy valuation and recycling so it was ensuring that we had an update on those to assure ourselves that matters were being dealt with and obviously if if we're not with the action plans obviously but if we're not then we would call in that the relevant head to service so those are the ones you we really need to chase now for for next committee so that we can look at those very specifically because lots of those are limited and they've been outstanding for some some time. In regards to I think this may be a typographical error Andrew in in 3.8 you've got four in the board that's undertaken unless this is a general statement you've got it is pleasing to note that the audit I've taken in Abakad in primary school do you think that demonstrated improvements should that be in there that's okay that's all right that's a general that's okay I thought it was in relation to recycling and waste management so no that's okay but apart from that I think you know and we're going to go on to where you're going to go for next year's plan and just to mention I think you've got 50 audits set out there and given you done 60 this year but clearly they're they're a lot larger and a bit more complex I think you know your team and the internal teams need to be congratulated on that so thank you for that if there are no other comments then can I move to the recommendations and can I suggest that we note the the annual internal audit report for 23 24 and note the head of internal audits annual opinion how formally moved chair thank you Richard can I second thank you anyone against nope thank you very much next item then is the internal audit strategy risk-based plan for 24 25 Joan thank you thank you chair got their patience thank you good morning I'm Joan Davis deputy head of the regional internal audit service so again this is another annual report the purpose of which is to provide members of the governance and audit committee with the annual internal audit strategy and risk-based plan for 24 25 for approval the internal audit strategy is attached to appendix a members will see that strategy recognizes that for 24 25 the regional internal audit service is a three-partner model and the plan therefore takes into account the resources available during 24 25 on that basis the strategy sets out the requirements of the internal audit as per the public sector internal audit standards and the accounts for audit wales regulations the strategy includes the definition of internal audit as per the standards the section 151 officer responsibility and the information to be provided to this committee it also outlines the methodology used to develop the risk-based audit plan and the approach taken when the team undertake audits moving on from that appendix b is the annual risk-based plan for 24 25 the plan provides this committee with an overview of the work to be undertaken which will offer sufficient coverage to provide an overall annual opinion at the year end the governance and audit committee will receive regular updates on the progress of the plan and any changes that may be required during the year this plan has been shared with cmb who has the who have had the opportunity to comment the plan provides this committee um sorry the plan provides this committee with the audit areas to be reviewed a proposed outline scope for each and a priority rating the plan includes the four audits that were ongoing at year end which have been carried forward and the two audits that were not started in the 23 24 plan there are currently 50 items listed at appendix b 37 opinion related audits and 13 which will not necessarily provide an audit opinion and that's from item 38 onwards on the appendices you will note that provision is in the plan for follow-up work which is item one that is to undertake audits that have previously been given only limited assurance as we've previously discussed school coverage is shown as item 28 financial systems item 12 and ict audits item 18 these programs will be developed during the year and audits completed under these headings will be reported as they progress individually therefore we are happy that the proposed audit plan will provide sufficient coverage to provide an overall annual audit opinion at year end whilst being flexible to allow for changing circumstances and events as they may occur such as requests to respond to new issues as they emerge that's all i'd like to say chair but i'm happy to take any questions thank you thank you joan are there any questions no i've only got a quite i've got a question the two which are carried over from this year into from last year into this year were they carried over from the previous year or are they new ones they're not sort of ones which were being carried over carried over and carried over are they if i go back to the appendices chair um no um one is the payment um card industry data security standards so no that's that's one that was was new and the other one is quality assurance no neither of those were no i think one of the carry forwards was but the other ones no that's okay that's great uh and the other comment i'd make uh well i'll make some comments in a minute sorry if there are no other questions any comments nope the only comments i make obviously it's preferable to get the high priority audits done first before you uh start uh the sort of medium ones if you can uh clearly in in moving uh the project for uh the project plan forward uh and uh you know keep us updated on the follow-up reports that you do because obviously they will be carried over from the limited ones we've had before and such like uh are there any other comments no if we got the recommendation then that the recommendation is that we approve the draft internal audit strategy appendix a and the draft annual risk-based audit plan for 24 25 so i'm prepared to move please thank you marlin can have a seconder thank you richard anyone against nope thank you item 13 is the regional internal audit service charter 24 25. thank you andrew watson the head of the regional internal service and this the purpose of this report is to present to members of committee and out the regional internal service charter for 24 25 and we do so in accordance with the public sector internal standards um so it's a requirement that we need to do this on an annual basis we review updates and reporting accordingly um for 24 25 there are no significant changes from the 23 24 charter chair um but just to outline the fact that the charter is in place to ensure that we do comply with the public sector internal standards sets out how we operate as an internal audit team uh sets out our relationships with various members of the hierarchy within the organization and also our access rights across the board in terms of documentation and personnel the chart is split into four sections purpose authority and responsibility independence and objectivity how we demonstrate we do that proficiency and do professional care along with our quality assurance and improvement program um but what i've done in future is to just outline the updates we've made uh and that is shown on um paragraph three onwards we've updated updated it to ensure that it now covers the three partner module as explained previously this morning there's a reference to the new global internal audit standards paragraph 2.14 they've been revised completely and the public sector internal standards board for the uk is currently reviewing those to see if there's any impact on the actual public sector internal standards so no news yet and there's an intention of getting any updates out to be effective from april 25 so as and when they come through chair i can report those into committee there's a reference in now in the charter to the anti-forward bribery and corruption policy which was made as a recommendation of our external assessment and the public sector internal standards and the also refers to the fact that we've had an external assessment and we are completely conforming to public sector internal standards and that matter has been reported to all partners within the regional service so the recommendation chair is for members to consider and approve the regional internal service charter for 24 25 happy to take any questions thank you andrew any questions anyone starting yes thank you chair i think the point that i did did raise last year is on point 212 the importance of elected members and lay members together with head of internal audit having the sound working relationship apart from these meetings isn't these are the only opportunities we have to to meet each other and to discuss matters of concern is there anything that we can do outside of these meetings to try to foster those relationships for example animal briefing or an away day or something like that because i note also that it would need to involve the scrutiny chairs as well any thoughts i i think that could be quite worthwhile in some respects because karis and i attended the audit wales seminar there's also another seminar going on in october andrew i think for chairs and vice chairs yet again the professional group didn't take up my suggestion that they should include all governance and all the committee members because we are as one we're not just a chair and vice chair so but i think that may be worthwhile maybe on an annual basis having you know maybe a morning session to pick up some of these issues can you think about that andrew and you know just put put in a short sort of couple of hour training package together suny chair yeah and thanks council for the question i think i'll work with karst and the team to see if we can support that good okay uh are there any other questions uh any comments no so the recommendation let me finger in the recommendation just that i was looking at the paragraph mark that was referred to um i think it's uh that we uh we approve so we've considered so we approve the regional into the audit service charter for 24 25 attached in appendix a to this report which is recommendation 9.1 and i suggest the recommendation 9.2 to look at setting up a an annual training session with those elected representatives and lay members as uh as proposed to deal with any sort of um outcomes of reviews or good practice in regards to governance and audit and scrutiny yep so i'm prepared to move please i'll formally move that chair hi richard can i second uh thank you martin anyone against no okay thank you that's carried our next one is the forward work program 24 25 deb yes thank you chair for the recording i'm deborah exon deputy head of finance and the purpose of this report is to seek approval for the updated forward work program for the 2024-25 year and the reason for this is to enable the governance and audit committee to make sure that they are actually undertaking all the responsibilities of the committee a number of which are set out in paragraph 2.1 so what we have is in table three point in the table in 3.2 we've got a list of the agenda items that are currently proposed to be brought to the next meeting of committee which is on the 19th of july and in appendix a we've got a full breakdown of all the reports for the remainder of the year and the recommendation is for committee to consider these and to see if there's anything else that they want to bring forward to committee at some point during the year or whether there are any additional officers that they may want to invite so it just takes you to the recommendation chair thank you any questions anyone thank you chair could i just ask deborah we have spoke about this before chair can we perhaps go one this year just one can we go into a bit of a more of a depth of one to have a bit more of an understanding of a service provider as us like um i don't know i don't know treasury management out turn reports or something like that so we just go a little bit deeper to understand how they come to the conclusions that they come into to a better understand it so we can make a better observations on things like that that's up to officers obviously if they fail we can't we can't but i just think sometimes it sometimes helps are you are you talking about training in respect to some of these areas yes we have provided training in the past but obviously as we've mentioned today there are a number of new members yeah um new elected members and we also will be having a new lay member so i think yeah we will look to refresh some of the training that we've provided i mean there are a number of technical areas on here we've got the statement of accounts coming up which we would look to provide you know an overview and some more detailed training nigel's done a number of these in the past and i'm sure you'd be quite happy to to do them again um treasury management training as well i mean treasury management doesn't just come to this committee it also goes to to cabinet and council so that would do our opportunities then for some of these to be opened uh you know more widely then so we can we can look at dates for that going forward thank you for that deborah but i what i'm that's great but i'm just getting that it's better to understand that the process how the budget works within in this you know in the in the council right that's what i'm trying to get at here so if you have a better feeling for it especially with new members on this committee they'll understand it more better so they can ask prudent questions when we're going through these reports yeah i think uh the update training is very important setting the budget obviously is uh is a little bit more complex because the officers don't set the budget you elected members set the budget um so yeah i think that would be useful you know uh nigel doing his treasury management and master of the dark arts finance thing i didn't know whether to call him professor snape but you know what finance is it is fairly complex it's not an easy subject to get your head around and i agree with that i think that would be very useful so uh get your potions out nigel and do something for us uh but i did yeah thank you i just wanted to check in note in the program of work where is icc and cyber security covered and i'm asking this question based on the the last presentation the presentation made the last time by the i think the head of it where the processes were brought and there were some action items around how do we track that we're doing well we on on on on cyber and i think cyber is an issue that was built importance to us as um as a governance committee so so thank you just wanted to know thank you yeah thanks by it and obviously carris has got an action to report back to us because it was one of the uh i think it was a limited wasn't it uh um assurance so carris do you want to update there i was to say we we did have that um internal audit report and actually we've bought two separate reports subsequently into governance and audit committee to um i hope relay any concerns that members have got i suppose just to reassure you that it remains a high issue for us obviously and we're always looking at it and how we can do it better i suppose it it we it came to you via the corporate risk assessment as well where we were asked for particular um information on that which is why you then had those two reports it still sits there within the corporate risk assessment really um i have no problems in us maybe coming back to governance and audit on a 12 monthly cycle if because it is a particular issue i understand so if members wanted that we could certainly look as to when we can put that back into the forward work program yes uh councilman williams thank you chair um building on what i said earlier um i don't see anything in here about our management of the capital program and i did say that was my hobby horse and i i do i do recognize that these are some of our statutory uh sort of reports that we need to look at but i i still have concerns about our our management of the capital program and i did raise this a few few months ago when the i think the capital management board was formed and you know how was that going and how could it potentially um evolve to become an improving body and so forth so on and so forth so i would like to see on here within the next quarter a good review of how we manage our capital program uh given that it's now under you know it's under far more stress perhaps than it has been in the past i'm actually happy to bring a report just on an update as to you know obviously as a matter of a council to set the capital program um but maybe just the update given the assurance sorry chair what i mean is yes of course it's about for council to set the capital program but i'm still not convinced that the way we govern it the way it's developed the way it's forecast the way it's changed uh the way projects are you know the the capital envelope for projects the risk provision within projects i'm not i haven't got a clear line of sight of how that works and if i haven't got a clear line of sight of how that works i don't know that it does work effectively and i'd really like to have a deep dive into the capital program to to see that you know give me assurance that we are doing it properly and and and and that we have an opportunity to to improve and make it more effective i don't know whether that should actually be referred to scrutiny and then to bravo yeah yeah is that scrutiny committee yeah sorry yeah it should go to scrutiny i think for them to do the work rather than i would say we could we could do that chair i mean the the way it's supposed to be managed is outlined in our capital strategy which is approved um annually by council as part of our suite of papers in in march or april um so we can certainly go into that in more depth there are a number of projects on the capital program where we have undertaken to do a review on completion of those projects and i wonder whether the way into the issue that council williams is talking about is maybe to take one of those reviews into the scrutiny committee process so that we can learn the lessons then so we know what it is we're supposed to be doing and how it's supposed to run but maybe after we've done one of those reviews we could use that as a case study to say well did that happen in this instance is the way in which we um continue to manage the capital program right or are there any lessons that we can learn can i come back chen and i'll leave it there yeah that's i see i feel like i'm i feel like i'm in a parallel universe here because i'm talking about something that i understand quite well and it seems i'm not able to articulate this i i'm not concerned uh well i am concerned but this isn't concerning the the governance of individual projects it's how we how we form the capital program how things get into the capital program how that capital program is forecast how for example can it be that has happened in my term as a counselor we've seen 40 slippage in the capital program within a three-month period how is this properly forecast and how do we have assurance that we have robust process around the management of the capital program not individual projects the thing as a whole and we we have the mtfs for for our revenue and and we we know whether we like it or not we have robust controls around that i don't see that for the capital program so either i'm blind to it in which case my eyes need to be opened or there is something missing and i need to have the assurance and i need to give those members my colleagues who aren't on this committee that assures that it's being robustly managed i more importantly we need to give the public that assurance because they would expect us to manage our capital fund and our capital program you know as robustly as our revenue so that's my last point but that's that's what i'm trying to get across not individual projects you've articulated that slightly differently to the way i've heard it before Councillor Williams can i take it away and give some thought as to the best way that we can work to actually address the concerns that you're raising and then having done that where it's best place whether it comes into this committee or where whether it needs to go into COSC and and then we'll do something to try and address that concern is that all right Councillor Williams it is what it is thank you Gary. Thank you Councillor Williams. Okay are there any other comments? No okay so clearly the recommendation is that we approve the updated forward work program for 24-25. Given the comments made obviously next committee we've got the heads of service reports also need to come on there in regards to those areas that were set out in Andrew's plan which should have come here but will now come we may need a covering report Andrew just to to deal with them but apart from that so i'm prepared to move please the forward program i'll formally move chair thank you Richard can have a seconder thank you Martin thank you anyone against no thank you well item 15 is urgent items there are no urgent items today obviously can i thank everyone for their contribution today i think it's been a an interesting meeting again with some very valid points being made and look forward to seeing you all on the 19th of July is it 19th of July is the next meeting and thank you very much everyone thank you very much