Transcript

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Good evening, members and officers. Welcome to this first meeting of the resources in delivering value scrutiny board meeting for the 2024-25 municipal year. The first item of business on the agenda is the election of chairman for this municipal year and following the annual meeting of council of the 14th of May. Are there any proposals for chairman? Thank you. Is there a second, please? Thank you, Councillor KA. Are there any other nominations? Thank you very much indeed. Mr McCarthy, would you kindly take the chair, please, thank you. [ Inaudible Remark ] Thank you. [ Silence ] Thank you. [ Silence ] Next item of business is to appoint a vice chairman for 2024-25. Do you see any nominations? I'd like to propose Councillor Delaney, please. Are there any other nominations? Nominate, Councillor Thompson. I'm sorry. Right on it. No. Sorry. Will a second, if that's okay, thank you. Right. I would like now to see a show of hands. First for Councillor Thomas. Thank you. Secondly for Councillor Delaney. Councillor Delaney is duly elected. Thank you. So next item of business is apologies for absence. Chairman, apologies for absence have been receiving Councillor Colle for whom Councillor Tomlinson is substituting. Thank you. Thank you. Congratulations, pecuniary or conflicts of interest. [ Silence ] Questions and deputations. Chairman, no questions or deputations have been submitted. Thank you. Thank you. I just thought I'd like to add before we get to the minutes. Sorry. If you're in a doubt about anything, please do ask. It's important that everyone has all of the facts in front of them. And also there's microphones that once one of you use the green when you're speaking and then cancel it when you're not. Thank you. So item six minutes from pages five to 12. These are minutes from the previous meeting. Are there any comments from those who were met part of that meeting? Thank you, Chair. Two points. In the last meeting I raised the question of the format of the minutes where we refer to a member having said something whereas rather than using the council's name. I've had a look into this and adult social care also use this form of minute taking. However, full council, economic development, children services and stronger communities all refer to cancers who contribute by name. I prefer the latter system because it makes it easier for you to look for where you have contributed to previous meetings and to ensure that your main points have been correctly recorded in the minutes. I would like to commend to this board that we changed the minute practice to record cancers who have made contributions and perhaps put that to a vote. Just ask how do the other members feel about that? I think I agree with it instead of referring to members would be good to have the individual council's name to refer to what they said. Thank you. Through you, chairman, as I'm the clerk for the board, I will respond through the chair. For members who have served at any time on this board going back through past minutes, you will see that the style and formatting for the minutes is as exactly as council occasions requesting. On the last occasion due to my availability, which has been very limited since the last meeting due to personal circumstances, I had to get the minutes out as a matter of urgency or there would have been no record on this agenda at all. So it was a case of getting a record out, but going forwards as a case noted, members will be attributed with their comments. So this was something of a one-off. I do apologise if it's caused members any distress. But rest assured, going forwards, members will have their comments attributed to them by name. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And one further point on the bottom of page six. The final paragraph starts, a member of the scrutiny board noticed that the sickness absent figures represented in the reported equated to 5% of the total of the working year. My main point that I was trying to make at that stage was that the report on human resources said that the average council employee was absent on sickness for 11.27 working days, which is two and a quarter working weeks or 5% of total work time. That costs the council, in my calculate, something like five to eight million pounds a year in direct last time. And in addition to that, you have disruption of the work of other staff, of having fellow workers away. Now, whilst there may be many cases of genuine sickness, this widespread absenteeism most likely indicates low morale in the workforce. My punchline on the 15th of April was that these figures do not so much indicate a sickly workforce as a sickness in management, I would like to return to this issue when we discuss the work program later in the agenda. Thank you. I think we do have some coverage of this area in the work plan and we can review that at that time. I'd also like to add that we do have some data on this which we can send out to all the members. Thank you. Any other questions about the minutes? There is no other than that accepted. Thank you. Item seven. This is a presentation of the cabinet portfolio holder for resources, priorities for the 2024-2025 municipal year. Councillor SLAY, would you like to proceed with that? Thank you. Thank you, Chair. I'm Councillor Bobsleigh, cabinet member for resources. And it, again, gives me the opportunity of this evening to advise you of the priorities for the portfolio going forward for the 2024-25. I will use the heading for each element of the report so you can identify what we're out to speaking about. Medium term financial strategy. In February 4, Councillor proved a medium term financial strategy for the period '24-25 to '26-27. This delivered a balanced budget for '24-25, but for the first time it was not balanced across all three years due to significant financial challenges that Council is facing around children's services. There is easily impact inflation and rising demand for a range of vulnerable people's services. Officers are already working through the Financial Sustainability Board on options to address the gaps in the MTFS for '25-26 onwards. In June, full cabinet will also be asked to approve the continuation of the budget strategy group to work on a new budget for '25-26 and an updated medium term financial strategy for '25-26 to '27-28. This next round of financial planning will be extremely challenging. The 23-24 statements of accounts and external audits. It was pleasing that we successfully completed the external audit sign-off of the '21-22 and '22-23 statements of accounts last year being both unqualified. Officers are now working on the 23-24 draft statements of accounts and are on track to publish these by the 31st of May 2024 in line with a statutory deadline. The audit of these accounts will begin in July 2024 and are projected to be completed by the end of September 2024. Corporate asset management. Having successfully delivered the majority of the corporate landlord model, which will become businesses used from June 2024, the focus of '24-25 will be to develop an asset strategy and master plan to ensure we are using our operations surplus assets as efficiently and effectively as we can. In the context of our difficult financial position, we need to ensure we optimise the property we are using to ensure focus service delivery while minimising operating costs, maximise commercial opportunities and to enhance capital receipts where appropriate. Through careful planning, our assets will be a valuable source of one of financing for our transformation aspirations to address the gaps in the MTFS. Town centre projects and property investments. I also highlight this scrutiny board last year that I am chair of the property investment board established by cabinets to make recommendations on property investments and acquisitions. During the last financial year, we selected Muse as our development partner for the redevelopment of MEL Square with redevelopment plans now being developed and shared. The current plan is to submit a planning submission by December '24 with a series of public engagements planned over the summer autumn to inform the submission. The programme has slipped slightly with phase one plan for November 2025 rather than summer 2025 as reported the scrutiny board last year. In addition to the redevelopment of MEL Square, I reported last year on two further major projects. The Council have site Eastgate and Westgate at the end of Homer Road. Work on Eastgate has currently been paused due to our financial position, however the Westgate site is progressing with bids into a major regional company looking to relocate and the scheme for the Westgate site looks in attractive proposition to them. If successful, this will provide a long-term stable tenant for the whole of the development of this site, making the development more valuable and sustainable. I am chair of the remuneration committee. The scrutiny board will also be aware that I continue to chair the Council's remuneration committee. The committee responsibilities include agreeing the updated pay policy statements which presented to full council for improvements on an annual basis, considering and approving severance payments, market forces payments and ensuring all provisions regarding disclosure of remuneration are fulfilled such as the trade university's time and the gender pay gap. People's strategy, building on a range of recent staffing initiatives like smart ways of working, the wide range of support available to staff around employee well-being and work, unequality, diversity and inclusion. Officer Ryan, the process of developing a new people's strategy for 2024. This will be informed by the employee survey conducted in early 2024 and will set out how we ensure strong leadership for the workforce supported to be physically and mentally resilient and an employer of choice able to retain and attract the right people. At the heart of the people's strategy, we will be ensuring a culture where people feel a sense of belonging, valued for their contribution and understand what is expected of them. Health and safety. I also have cabinet member responsibility for health and safety and work with my officers to track progress against the corporate health and safety action plan. Representatives from all directors of the council, including the trade unions, attend a corporate health and safety board that is oversight of all health and safety matters. Good progress has been made in the last year with direct reduction plans now all being in place. Most services have done health and safety, risk assessment and reviewed personal safety and loan working arrangements. The corporate warning market system being embedded, a wide range of health and safety training having been delivered, improved accidents and into importing and ensuring health and safety is integral to commission services delivery. For 24/25, the focus will continue to be on training delivery, but also the completion of an organization level stress risk assessment and a security-based assessment of the corporate buildings, income and awards. We have continued to take a sympathetic approach to debt recovery in response to the cost of living impacts. Our income collection levels for invoices raised in 23/24 was once again good compared to our neighbouring authorities. But our overall outstanding debt levels, particularly in respect of adult social care, have risen in 23/24. I've asked officers for some focus work to understand the age debt profile better to start a tackle and reduce our level of debt particularly. I will continue to receive quarterly reports on income collection and make sure that we have support mechanisms in place for those that find it difficult to pay their bills. There are also a couple of significant changes for 24/25 that income and awards will be managing. A review of the local tax reduction scheme to move from a single fixed percentage to a banded scheme which will require a statutory public consultation and a national move to universal credit starts with solely already residents this year and requires us to support elements of the managed migration. Discretionary rate relief. Throughout the year I will consider applications for discretionary rate relief from small organisations within the borough. As in previous years, this seems to be based on the extent to which the relief would make a significant difference to the organisation's finances. Digital strategy. We have a comprehensive strategy in place which aims to expand the range of digital service and channels to our residents. Working with officers, I will look to ensure that the strategy and underlying road map are further progressed during 24/25. ICT projects, the previous arrangement for improving IT projects will continue into 24/25 in that no spend on the major ICT project can be incurred without first presenting a report to one of my decision sessions for approval. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Councillor SRI. Members, any questions? Okay, let's start with Councillor KA. Thank you, Chair. On health and safety, you mentioned loan working. Can I just confirm that that includes employees working from home that we can check that their working conditions, time at screen time and personal work stations or satisfaction will avoid repetitive strain injuries and the similar? I can have to say that one. So there's an expectation that all employees do display screen equipment assessments and they have to do it for both their office base and for their home working if they are home working. So we've got quite a bit of a compliance rate with those. I think we're in 18-90% around those currently and those are ongoing and they have to do one of those each year just to make sure they remain for purpose. If they identify anything in that that's required, then they have a conversation with their line manager about what adjustments are made or whether there's any particular equipment that we need to get to make sure that there are no issues in their home setup, basically. So it's less about loan working more about display screen equipment. The loan working is more about the risks to employees when they are working alone in higher situations, so they might be visiting addresses or working in buildings where they're sort of the last person to leave and making sure that they're safe in that environment if they're working alone in that sort of environment. Councillor Thomas. Yeah. Can I just firstly confirm at the beginning of your speech, you said that the deficit in the medium-term financial strategy was all due to children's services. Now, as I recall, the deficit was around 26.1 million, but the investment going into children's services was only around 9 million this year. Can I confirm that I've understood that correctly? No, you haven't. What I said was that the council is facing around children's services, residual impact of inflation and rising demand for a range of vulnerable people's services, so it's cost more than just children's services, but thanks for the question. Okay, and I suppose a second question following up from that is what is the plan for addressing that position, so we get to a balanced budget for the forthcoming three years this year, and when can we start to expect to see details of that plan being shared with us? As it's said in my report, in June fall cabinet will be asked to approve the continuation of the budget strategy group to work on the new budget for 2526 and the updated medium-term financial strategy for 2526 to 2728. The next round of financial planning in that context will be extremely challenging, so that matter is reserved for the budget strategy group to deal with that. We've set a budget for the one year. Do you want to come in? Sorry, I was just going to say the question was actually more aimed around this new operating model rather than the budget tree planning process. I'm afraid I can't answer that. This is a work program for this coming year, and those are the items I'll be focusing on. As is the case, this scrutiny board can also ask for any matter which is to be brought to the scrutiny board to equally scrutinise. These are my priorities, but at this point in time it's the forward work program. Thanks. Councillor SRI. Thank you, Chair. I think I remember asking this question in the previous municipal year about what is the status of the CHEMslywood town centre plan or regeneration program, and I've got our response there. However, now that we're having the new municipal year in place and the work programs to be considered, I'm just going to ask that question again. What is the current status of the CHEMslywood town centre plan or the program and whether it will be included? This municipality, or do we have to wait for next year? Thank you. Well, as I said to the previous question, it's entirely up to the scrutiny board to decide what's in its work program. And of course, if you want to review CHEMslywood town centre, you're quite a liberty to do so. Councillor SRI. Councillor SRI, the town centre property investment board here in Sully Hall. What constructive approach would you recommend the scrutiny board adopts to assist in this matter? I think that's a really important point. In essence, we have established a town centre steering group made up of local members who actually serve this locality. And I think the first meeting of that was very successful to outline to them what the proposals currently were with regard to town centre redevelopment. And as my report says, all the developers are proposing to prepare a planning application later in the year. Or any next, I'll have to refer to my notes. And of course, it's entirely a matter of the scrutiny board again if they want to be engaged in that process. It will, of course, go through planning. So the real opportunity, both for the public to be engaged. And as I said within the report, the developers will be undertaking substantial public consultation with regard to the proposals that come through for MEL Square particularly. But obviously the whole of the town centre going forward. I think as we're all aware, it's a fairly long term program. Phase one is the first part of that phase. And then we'll start to see how the thing emerges as time progresses. But I think it's very legitimate for the scrutiny board to give consideration to ensure that they understand what those plans are going forward from the Council and the developers particularly. The reason I asked the question is that I think we're scheduling just one specific consideration of that. And I'm just wondering whether we need to be more dynamic and more agile in terms of how we look at it as scrutiny. Because I think it will be a very important aspect of our future. And something I personally would be very keen to keep a close eye on. I don't disagree. I mean, this is an important development for us as we're all very, very aware. So it's a matter of the scrutiny board if they wanted to take further look, I think that's where I am. Councillor Thomas. Yeah. As you've just mentioned about the town centre development, it is really, really key. I know that you mentioned that a steering committee's been set up consisting of presumably the local war's councillors. Because the town centre affects all of us, do you think it would not be appropriate to also involve a member from each of the opposition groups and said boards so that we're getting around it for you and not just one from the St Alfred's councillors? I didn't establish the group. That's a matter you will have to take up with people who did establish the group, I didn't establish it. I would point out that we have done these previously. We did them at Shirley, with the Shirley developments some years ago. And I think the officer will take that away and see how that goes. Any further questions? Are members content to accept those priorities? Thank you. Thank you, Councillor SRI. [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] That brings us to item eight, final item, which is a work plan for 2020-24-25, which is available from page 17. Members have had chance to digest this work plan. And my comments would be that we have a number of things to add to this, which combined authority will come to us through maybe three times. I suspect three is what they would like. So we may fit those in as and when they can confirm they're ready for that. Members, any other additions or comments? Councillor JOHNSTON. I'm aware Councillor SRI was denying all knowledge of this. But I think it is on the list, but the development of the Council's new operating model I think is so key to balancing our budget next year because it's going to be what balances it or not. And I do think we need to get that probably on at least quarterly as a regular review item because it's probably our biggest single priority for the year. [BLANKAUDIO] How would this differ from the quarterly financial performance update report? So the quarterly financial performance update is, I suppose, related to the current state of the Council's finances. So our performance in the quarter previously, the new operating model will shape the design of the services that the Council offers going forward and in effect shape the finances going forward. Have I explained that? Councillor interjecting. Yeah, forwards and backwards difference. Now, you heard Councillor SLAY's response to your question. Yes, I'm home. So I am, but I'm aware having sat in the Budget Strategy Group. The problem is that with the Budget Strategy Group is that you don't really get the chance to have an in-depth scrutinisation because you get all the portfolios in one session. At best you get about 10 minutes on each portfolio, maybe. You might get a little bit extra on children. Sometimes it comes back in a separate session. But there really isn't the information and it's all focused around the financials. The problem with this idea of a new operating model is that, yes, there'll be a financial impact, but potentially there's also going to be a services impact. The one I'm particularly nervous of is the trying to get more send children into mainstream schools because of some of the case work I've had to handle recently and just seeing how damaging that can be. So I feel that there needs to be a lot of scrutiny and overview to make sure that we are making the right decisions, not just from a financial point of view, but also for the people of Solly Hill. And that's why I feel that it's so key that we do focus on this and not just let it go through budget strategy group. Yeah, when we heard Councillor SLAY's comments, this is ongoing work and it will mature and during the previous year we have as new operating stuff becomes available. Once it's mature it will come to us as and when it's available. It's very difficult to say when this is going to be available. But as Councillor SLAY said, as it matures, I don't know whether Andrew, you have any comment on that? So currently there is a financial sustainability board which is officers seeing the officers in the organisation that's looking at how do we address the gaps in the MTFS. I wouldn't say here and claim at the moment that there is a specific piece of work going on around a new operating model for the Council in line with that because I think we're seeing can we address the gap without necessarily throwing the Council up in the air and doing something different at this point in time. I'm not saying that's off the cards completely related. There's not a specific piece of work around that at this point in time. We're exploring other options at this stage. It may progress to that but we're not there at the moment. If we do develop to that then obviously there will be something that would then be available that can be brought forward. Obviously that's not what was in the financial papers that were presented to the Council and the Budget Strategy Group in the lead up to this year's budget but if we can avoid that step obviously that's a good thing but I do think it's important that we as a scrutiny board get regular updates of that whether it's a new operating model, whether it's selling off a load of the Council's assets as was mentioned in the thing so that we can really make sure that the right decisions for the people of Solly Hill are being made. Thank you for that. As I said, as and when things become available and reports are mature, they can be brought to us and it gives both officers and members who are developing these things a fair chance of having mature work for us to see. I should just keep seeing it and seeing it. Okay, so those will be in the work plan as they become available. Councillor SRI. Very quickly, as we all appreciate the leadership at WMC has changed. Was there any indications already that any change of the representations, the meetings that were conducted in our office is going to be changed in any way or is it going to be the same process? Did I ask that right? Sorry, I'm a question. As we all understand it is changing leadership in the WMC, like the new mayor. So was there any indication from that office that the way that we conduct the meetings with the WMC is going to change or is it going to be the same process as we have been following all the period of time? As far as I'm aware from the office's side of things, the office's percent not the political leadership, I'm not aware there's any changes at this stage, but then I don't think any of us know yet in terms of how the new mayor wants to conduct the office of the mayor. So that may or may not change things. I'm not sensing there's any desire to change that from the office's side of things at this stage. So I can't say anything on that. Any further questions? Councillor Cai. Thank you. I share the concerns expressed about the change of the mayor, which could have a significant impact on Solihull, but we wait to see. So I would certainly welcome the proposed three reports from the combined authority. And I also agree that our own budgets are a matter of singular concern to this board. So regarding the proposal in 3.3 to reduce our number of meetings to buy monthly, my preference would be to keep the meeting scheduled as it is because some of these topics are going to be quite meaty, and I don't wish that we should be extending our meetings too late into the evenings. I think perhaps our April meeting would have been more convenient had we not had it during the election process, but that doesn't apply during the current year, although maybe in 26 we may consider whether we actually need a meeting in April. So those are my main points, and I would like to have a decision on the meetings. I have got some further points, but I'm happy to give away to others in the meantime. Thank you. As in previous years, the actual cadence of this plan and the availability of material reports in time for the members to digest them in time for a schedule meeting, depending upon the reports being available, and that can sometimes be affected by internal factors. We've had it previously, and it may well affect us again, which can cause what we would call a fixture pile up from time to time. But that's very difficult to avoid if we're going to get through the work during the year. Councillor CAY, what did you want to add next? Sorry. We had a report on the corporate properties during the year. And the asset master plan, which I felt was a rather lightweight report, which didn't particularly add anything to the information that this board had been told in the previous year. I would hope that when we look at it in this year's scrutiny board that we have quite a bit more granularity regarding specific properties. We've already heard mention of various town centres and development properties in progress. And I think we need to be looking in to ensure that the council taxpayers' investment in these various properties are properly protected. And also I would like to look at the community buildings, the halls, the libraries and parks as well to make sure that we're maximizing the use of these various properties for the public benefit and our strategy for advertising sort of booking slots and all that sort of stuff. Thank you. I'm sure the office is producing that report. We'll be aware of aspirations for it and also gives you opportunity to frame detailed questions on the evening concerned. Any further questions? A couple more, if I may. We'll again have a look at the digital strategy. If you look at our terms of reference, it was more to do with the implementation of the new changes. But now I feel that our terms of reference shift slightly more to the actual delivery business of usual side of these things. The terms of reference refer to changes to the website where I feel there's still quite a lot further to go. I noticed that Manchester City Council won an award for their website and looking at their website, it is quite clean with an index page which is a grid of all the sort of things that you might want to look into the huge complexity of a council. But it's all delivered more or less on the index page whereby one click you can get to areas that you're looking into. I think that maybe some work needs to be done to analyse the progress of the website development and where we see that going. Yes, this is one of the valuable parts of this session is that authors of that digital strategy report will be aware of that and what you've had to say and also that questions on those items may be tabled which gives us a good outlook for the review when it comes up on the work plan. Thank you. And on page 25 there's some suggested items for inclusion in the work programme. The top item is the development of the council's new operating model. I'm not sure whether that's going to be to do with the solid hall community housing. But I suspect that there'll be quite a bit of interest to this board with the new operating model. So I would definitely like to see that included in the work programme. As far as the work force report is concerned that I found very interesting at the end of last year. And I would certainly like to see a similar report at the end of this year which might give ideas going forward for the following year work programme. To me the biggest issue on the work force report was the information that on average there's 11.27 days taken per year of sickness with children's services at 12.9 days and adult social care at 19.5 days per year. In comparison the Chartered Institute of Personnel Survey reported on average 7.8 days across all employers. Whereas public civil service figures show an average of 7.9 days across the year. And I would iterate that those are averages and not targets. So I feel that we do have a problem with sickness that we need to look into. In Solihull particularly in adult social care and children's services. I feel that these figures indicate a low morale in the work force. Where people are waking up on a Monday morning and not feeling that they particularly want to go to work. Or when they come to work that they do not feel their contribution is valued or appreciated. That's my personal view obviously. I would like to deep dive into the management training that we may have in place to encourage teamwork and to ensure that our workforce remain motivated, focused and appreciated. I would like to review the content of the training and to ensure that it's effective and implemented. In view of the recent disturbing internal audit report about HR problems at Solihull community housing and the possibility of structural changes in the council. I think that the HR at SCH should also be brought into scope. I think we are getting a bit into the detail of the work itself here. My proposal is that we should have an early work program on this specific topic or it may even be better to set up a task and finish group to approach the issue. Thank you. Councillor CASSIDY. Councillor JOHNSTON. I just wanted to say mostly to Councillor KA that I think you've made a lot of assumptions there without any information and that you may or may not be barking down the wrong tree but I think to ask for a deep dive into the management training program of the back of absent stats is probably making some assumptions there and I think if you really wanted to do that, probably we just reviewed the absent stats with the workforce report and maybe get some feedback on what people said during return to work interviews as to why they were absent and that might lead us into further roots of questioning but I think to assume that it's directly a management problem is probably making an assumption at the moment with the information that we've been given. Yeah, most of these questions are on the table for when the relevant piece of work comes forward on workforce report. It's already a proposed item and it will come up. We will insert that as a piece of work and then we can work on that on the evening when office of concern is here to answer the questions. Certainly if we don't have to ask the question we're not going to know the answer and my feeling is that the scale of this problem justifies some special work to be done on it. Councillor HAWAN. Thank you so much Chair. Well I have been away from here have I not. So I'm just sitting here thinking one of the reasons we're sort of looking at the work program and I'm right in saying this is when we're deciding whether you have 12 or 6 meetings and a few seconds ago and I think it was suggested. We just wait and see how the work goes. I think we've had some very interesting details. The facts given to us today and I certainly have been enjoying picking it all up and it's not always easy as I say I've been out for 12 months to pick it all up but I think it's important that we do have these meetings and we can always cut back if we need to because I think we just said April April from now onwards next year may not that's another thing but we depend how we're all feeling then but the Councillors have pointed out quite a few in-depth important remarks and I've enjoyed hearing from them. Thank you. So I think we should keep your meetings as they are and we'll see how it goes Chairman. Up with them now. Suggest them. Indeed is our practice to recall specific pieces of work when we believe there's a case to do so. So. That's fine. I suggested the two monthly to align with the screening committee's last time. I have to keep it as it is at the moment given the work programme if you want to do that so it's not an issue from that point. Just coming back on the absence stuff so I wouldn't sit here and defend the absence figures being good compared to the national averages and that sort of thing although probably just need to understand when those national averages relate to so we're talking about the same years because a lot of organisations are starting to see rising in particular long-term sickness because of generally the state of the treatment people are getting or not getting for a lot of long-term conditions which is then leading to people being off on long-term sickness when they perhaps otherwise wouldn't have been pre-COVID when those backlogs weren't there. Also there's quite a lot of stress related sickness as you saw from the stats last time. A large proportion of that is linked to personal issues that people are experiencing on work-related stress so there's a range of reasons which actually just managing the situation to try and make people come back to work won't necessarily address from that point of view. I've recently done two weeks ago the absence training is part of my induction process for the organisation and it covered all of the things you would expect to do from a training point of view and all of the new managers and even some existing managers were on that course so I'm not convinced there is a training problem. I think there is a general issue in terms of the state of health of this country. I think this is one and half to two million people with long-term illnesses currently off work that weren't previously in that position pre-COVID. So there is a national issue around sickness whether that's translated through into all organisations, whether some organisations in the private sector deal within a different way in terms of how they support people. I don't know but as a public sector body we have certain duties and expectations around how we manage that. That said those levels are probably still higher than they need to be and so there is some valid scrutiny around that from this committee in terms of moving forward. I wouldn't argue with that. Members, any further anything else? At the end of the day this work plan across the area is somewhat of a movable feast. When things come up we need to talk about officers getting them added to the plan because they are on grounds of urgency and that the piece of work is mature and complete which gives us a quality piece of work which means that when we do review it we get a more mature set of questions and answers. Ending else? Councillor KA. Yeah, I'd just like to pin that one down a little bit more. The HR report is scheduled for the end of the year. We are likely to get response from the employee survey within a very few months I suppose. I wonder whether we ought to have an interim report specifically on any outcomes of the employee survey and an update on the sickness absence, perhaps mid to mid year. I'd ask the officers if such a thing is feasible to produce and mature a piece of work on that to set the scene but it would be quite brief I suspect. Mike, I'm sorry. So we're actually talking to Paul Johnson tomorrow around the initial organisational level feedback from the employee survey. So I can guess the different Paul in terms of how we take that through and then what we feel screwly can have in that at the right time in terms of the results coming out. Obviously the officers haven't seen all those results yet, directors haven't had a chance to consider the results yet so I'd want to go through that process first before then reporting something into a member space which obviously would be appropriate. That's it. That being the last item. So work plan comes up. Most meetings anyway so if anything does occur that becomes urgent we can add that in. So thank you everyone for joining us tonight for that and setting up the committee for this year and with that I'll close the meeting.

• Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO]