Transcript

On Wednesday the 12th of June, 20, 24. It's nice to see everybody at the beginning of a new municipal year. I don't think we've got any new members on the committee. So I think that we all know each other. We've got a number of people in the room. We've got one councillor in the room. Everyone else is online. We have officers accompany me in the room here from education, legal and democratic services. So we will crack on with the first item on the agenda. That's apologies for absence from councillor Mike White and I'm not sure if it comes if you're on a Gordon's able to make it this evening, but we record apologies as well. If not. The second point is disclosures are personal and prejudicial interest. Do we have any? No one indicating. And the third item on the agenda is the minutes of the last two meetings. So we've got the minutes attached. So if I can ask you to check them. On page one and page two for the meeting held on Wednesday the 17th of April, and then page one page on page three for the meeting held on Thursday the 16th of May. And if you're happy to approve them committee members, then I will sign them as an accurate record on your behalf. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, bear. I can see you nodding. Okay, so we move on to the fourth item on the agenda. And that's terms of reference. Now, this is sent for information only, but it's important for us to remind ourselves of a number of of points quite briefly. So, looking at the terms of reference, we have four service transformation committee meetings that sorry service transfer transformation committees in the 2024 year. And we note the six week cycle will continue this year. Chairs are encouraged under section a point four to meet and coordinate. So, so there will be some collaboration and has been some discussion amongst chairs and cabinet members to make sure that there's no overlap. And we see that the remit and the section C is outlined with three bullet points there and we see reference to transforming a ln right schools in right places which of course the two key areas we looked at in the last year, but we may have updates as we go on officers will. And clarify as we go forward and the third point that is learner progress. So we've got those key areas listed in the terms of reference. Very important to note section D and the cabinet relationship and the work plan will be agreed in discussion with the course the cabinet member comes to Robert Smith and Helen Morgan research the director of of education. Section E relationship with scrutiny. So it's important for us to have an early sense check and awareness of work programs and again, that's just as a matter of good pro practice as we step forward. When we look at the terms of reference point five. Again, we see this discussion with the cabinet member and the director has been highlighted as important. Was that me, was that the. My phone was it. I don't apologize if that's my telephone should be off. It was me. So the 25 pound fine might be. So we oppose their terms of reference just to sort of evolve had copies of this we're all aware of the structure with a number of changes changes for this year. So we look now to a gender item number five, the work plan discussion. So we, I've got a number of comments that I'd like to make this to set the scene. Really, sorry, Helen's got a hand up Helen, please. I'm having difficulty connecting to everything. I haven't got the papers in front of me in terms of the terms of reference, but I did you mention, learn a progress and I'm just wondering where the consideration of how we have innovative approaches to tackling positive behavior in our schools has been included in the terms of reference. It's not listed in the terms of reference Helen, but it is noted in my opening comments to reflect the discussions we've had. Okay, thanks. Okay, so we turn to agenda item number five. We're planning discussion. So to kick it off and, of course, committee members are asked for their insights and comments and thoughts that my opening comments start with learner progress. So we're looking at learner progress from following on from the discussions we've had in setting up the series committee with consideration of the Swansea principles, effective practice, pupil assessment, and progress in line with the curriculum for Wales. The second item to be considered and discussed by committee is the idea as Helen mentioned supporting positive behavior in our schools. And then as we go forward, we may have some reports for information, maybe as we go forward to look at updates on specialist teaching facilities right schools, right places as we go through. I'm going to type and focus the agenda, as we did last year. Three comments for me just to kick things off and I'll be quite brief in saying this. We've got strong strategic links. We've got very strong track record of success. We've got links on an international level, UNICEF and children's rights. Not least UNESCO's Institute for lifelong learning, of course, Swansea was the city of learning and remains very closely attached to UNESCO. And as lifelong learning champion, it's important to note to those cradle to the grave links that we have. We are talking about the youngest child to the oldest adults and we are talking about education, education institution from the youngest child, all the way up to our universities, our two universities that we have in Swansea. That my second point relates to committee members pausing and reflecting like a squeaky hinge on this idea of what learner progress means. And challenge, not to think about what we've known from past, but to think with energy and enthusiasm and innovation as we look ahead, what does learner progress mean for our 93 schools and 36,000 pupils if I've got the number right. And that's a challenge in anyone's book. And importance of stepping with the curriculum for Wales, and I'm not going to go over old ground, we've all as council has been involved with the emerging curriculum for Wales for years. But we are talking about our important four purposes, areas of learning, statements of what matters and principles of progression, which runs through like a black pool rock throughout the education agenda for us in Wales. It's important in the guidance for the Welsh government, there was a note there in the guidance that refers to a pupils progression at different cases. And I think that's an important consideration. My third preliminary point, this is, and cabinet member comes to Rob Smith reminded me of this important phrase. We talk about stage, not age. It's not as a child progresses from a particular age to the next days to the next stage, and we move on chronologically through and success is noted at each stage. This is about the stages that individual pupils are at. We're not talking about round pegs into square holes, and my bug bear, if you like, which I sometimes get slightly frustrated about is the idea of, of more able than talented thinking. Sometimes in my experience as a child, more able and talented thinking, got in the way of my progress in school. And linked to this, we do have a very diverse range of children and young people in schools. Of course, we have a very strong focus on on on on a lens. And what does success look like for individual pupils? It's great to get to the GCSE year and see a string of great results. What does it mean for all pupils. And, and in that context, I noted previously an officer's no better than I do with the increase in neuro diversity issues we've seen in so on G schools, that kind of spite only over time. That mean that we've got to cut our clock to meet and evolve in cohort of children and young people. But that's it from my opening comments. I hope that they make sense. And can I pass on to Councillor Robert Smith as the cabinet member for education please. Yeah, and I think I would echo what you've just said there Chairman in terms of setting the scene. What I would say, you know, learner progress is a very broad area and covers a large number of different policy strands and what I would say. We talked about behavior separately. We've talked about an intent in attendance as well. But I think it's all, it all contributes to learner progress. You know, when we won't get the kind of programs we want, unless we get the behavior strategy, right? We won't get the learner program. We want to know as we get. So, you back now, sorry, Robert, you just went on to. I don't know what I've got. But you know, they're all, they're all interlinked. And I think what we need is a focus on the end product here. What are we looking at because there are actions for world's government to take. And there are questions about where the approach that was government has adopted is leading us on what can we do within that framework. But I think the problem we've got is that schools are now cells need to be clear about where they are going next. And I think we need to work with schools to, I'm trying to develop a local authority wide approach on all of these issues that include learner progress, but it also includes, I think, promoting strategies to promote positive behavior, making actual tendons because I think some of you have heard me say before, you know, the national behavior and attendance, we will link the two issues 20 years ago. And I certainly think that they remain twin strategies, they got to address both of those issues on those issues are crucial in terms of learner progress as well, as well as the other things that need to be considered when we in terms of how we measure learner progress. And how we support schools will do that, yeah. And that's lovely. Thank you very much, Robert. Can I ask now can I pass on to Helen, Helen, could you sort of pick up where Robert left please. Yeah, thank you, just to concur with Councillor Smith in terms of the intention here obviously we want to get it right for Swansea. We've come from an era of understanding what standards look like in our schools. And now, as a local authority, we'd really just need to understand learner progress across our schools, and what's being assessed and how schools have developed an approach, and how we can spread some of that good practice as well across the system. So I think it's really important, we consider both topics and see the interdependencies between them, where we come to behavior on the agenda. It's such an important consideration to get right into ones a and it's not just as one issue, but we know we need to adapt and innovate when it comes to our approaches with supporting schools to support positive behavior. So we do have in attendance over principal school improvement advisor, David Thomas or dies is affectionately known, who was going to provide us with a bit more detailed background in terms of where we are, where we could be in Swansea on this very topic. That's lovely lovely introduction, thank you Helen die I think the last time we saw you in this committee meeting, you were wrapped up the heating was off it was freezing cold and you had a quote done in the house I remember that keep involved. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for the help of the boom Mike was down thanks Audrey. So what I've got for you is a verbal report today chair on what I find if it's worth anything is a really useful summary sentence to provide guidance to the work of the committee and to the Swansea principles, informed by the sharing of effective practice that supports a clear view of how assessment informs progress or progression within curriculum for Wales, and supports democratic accountability, there's quite a bit in there to be fair. So, I hope that this verbal report would lead to a narrowing of that countless myths absolutely right it's a really broad topic and something that schools in Swansea, and across the board in Wales are grappling with. So making sense of that is a real priority for us in Swansea but certainly for the school improvement team in how we approach school support. I thought it'd be useful just to just to provide some definitions seek to seek some clarity. So in terms of the word accountability, you know, and I don't mean to patronize but it is the process to confirm if evaluation and improvement is happening at a school level. So it's just to confirm that, and for no other reason. So the accountability system should not drive school improvement activities, but it can contribute to it. And what I mean by that is in the past potentially accountability measures, for example, end of key stage information has driven the school improvement activity when actually it should have supported it. So it was the car before the horse, and accountability systems should identify problems that exist if they do exist and rectify them really quickly. So what does accountability look like for schools well as we all know the accountability system, the primary accountability system for schools is their governing body, and that typifies the term democratic accountability is outlined by the school improvement guidance. So it's really important that the school and its governing body have a really clear view of what assessment looks like in that setting, and therefore it's going to be very difficult to devise a really clear specific view of assessment across 94 schools and settings. However, sometimes governing bodies and schools need the support from the local authority to make sense of a principal approached guidance so that's where the school improvement team and the likes of the stakeholder engagement team come in. But then there are times when governing bodies need a little bit more, the word intervention is provided from the local authority. And then comes LA scrutiny and at the local level and then of course on to regional scrutiny. And the second layer that exists for accountability is, of course, estan, and what we'd like to think is that the inspector at aligning their work more closely with the work of schools. So, as instead of it being another layer of accountability, it's designed to be more democratic and working partnership with schools. And what we are seeing is the outcomes from inspections aligning all with how schools operate the school improvement guidance, but it's more of a developmental conversation as opposed to a judgmental one so what I am saying is the inspector is helping us feel less inspectorial and more developmental which I see as a positive. I'm just going to go on to the overall requirement that the principal that's behind the words democratic accountability. And ultimately what we're trying to achieve is overall collective responsibility for the quality of education, so that everybody involved in the party has shared ownership. So it isn't just down to the work of a school individual individual governing bodies individual local authorities or regional consortia that we share the responsibility of this quality of education. And on that basis, we actually need to understand what quality looks like. And from our perspective, we judge the quality of the education offer. Not in simple terms, but through evaluate the evaluation of pupil progress and as Helen and I often make reference to what kids can and can't do. And we do lose sight of that so that's something perhaps for the committee to consider when we ask us to perhaps narrow this question further as the municipal year progresses. It's about evaluating pupil progress again what kids can and can't do. And how do we evaluate pupil progress because this is a little bit messy. Well, we evaluate people progress using a term called assessment. And we know that assessment plays a fundamental role in enabling each learner to make progress. So assessment isn't the weighing scales assessment is a process that enables learners to make progress. It's different to what we used to be what we're used to seeing assessment as. And therefore when you've made reference to this chair and Councillor Smith that actually enable each learner to make progress at an appropriate pace to them. So that's really important, but it does add a level of complexity. So I'm going to just expand a little bit on assessment for a moment assessment is holistic. And one way to describe that would be looking at a learner through the lens of the different disciplines, the AOL is the areas of learning experiences. We would be looking at a shared understanding of progression across a system so we would use professional dialogue to understand what that looks like. Assessment is an ongoing part of teaching and learning and intertwined into a school or settings curriculum and is not an add on pupils are actively involved in the process of assessment. And perhaps an example I'll give you will show us how that isn't the case often. Assessment is about the progress that learners make, not about marking their card at a particular point in time. And assessment includes a range of stakeholders, including parents, pupils and practitioners. A site to that is something called assessments and that's probably more where we're used to. So assessments, I now see we see as a list of activities, their jobs and assessments can inform a school or settings process called assessment. So the assessments that we would be used to GCSE scores at the end of a key stage, focused observations, tests, etc. They are part of an assessment regime, but they are not assessment, they are activities. So I just wanted to set the tone to our understanding of that and I got to be straight with you, not all of our schools and settings in Swansea have a clear view of that. So it's my job to get to get that message to schools in Swansea, but it's also the region's job as well and they have been doing that through part areas regional offer. In terms of developing a set of Swansea principles, I had to go back to the word principle to really understand what I'm trying to achieve here and it's a rule by sense. We're trying to get a set of rules and it's really difficult to get a set of rules for assessment, but overall assessment has three main roles. It's designed to support an individual understanding on an ongoing basis of day to day pupil progress. The second core principle core role is to identify and capture and reflect learner progress over time. And also to understand groups of learners and their progress in order to reflect on the practice, the quality of what's being provided. And when we try and pick a little bit of that day to day progress that progress over time on that group progress those three main roles. We use the word progression and we need to go back to what that means and progression is how a learner develops and improves their knowledge and skills over time. So this might be something the committee consider as in as a line of inquiry or a piece of work that we want to demonstrate. So that's one element. The progression is how a learner develops and improves their knowledge and skills over time. There's also another layer that exists, which isn't necessarily a deep understanding of individual learner progress and that's highlighted to the mandatory principles of progression. I got a little bit more on that in a second. And then another element is what we know is a shared understanding of progression, which doesn't look at individual learners. It looks at individuals. It looks at learners across a system and is more in relation to the practitioners understanding and those other stakeholders. So it's about how learners should progress through those knowledge through the knowledge and skills and experience the leadership element to it. And it draws on the principles of progression. It looks at progression across a system. So from three to 16 potentially across schools and settings. And how those expectations compare outside of a local system. So that shared understanding of progression requires us to look as a school or as an organization outside of our organization or school, not necessarily within, as we would know a cluster. So just to expand a little bit on the principles of progression, I can see a hand up chair. That's, can you carry on for a second. Yeah, sorry, of course. So the principles of progression. Are what does the Welsh government describe what progression must look like for learners. And what they do is they describe the capacities and behaviors that practitioners must seek to support. And they describe the types of learning and allow pupils to develop towards the four purposes. And one of the misconceptions that we've got in Swansea and in other local authorities is the principles of progression are going to help us really understand what I said earlier on progression. They're not going to do that because they don't describe the development of skills, knowledge and experience that children's have they are there to describe the types of learning and support practitioners to develop and describe the capacities and behaviors of pupils. And lastly, the principles of progression do allow leaders to consider holistic development. So one question I've got is, does the committee want us to focus on the principles of progression through a set of leadership investigative questions because that does provide us with a high level set of leadership investigative questions. So I have got a summary and I haven't got the answer because I'd like for the committee to guide our work if that's appropriate. What is it that we want so does the committee want us to provide a broad view of the word assessment. And ask, do we want to develop a more detailed view of how assessments inform people progress. And, or do we want a more deep understanding of the principles of progression. So, I think there's three options throughout those three options there'll be the realization that we need to find some effective practice we have got that intelligence now. And how would that looks what that looks like in terms of the Democrats accountability. So, I spoke three questions really chair that do we want that broad view of assessment. A detailed view of assessment that inform progression the skills and knowledge and experience the pupils have. How do we want to development of this, of the principles of progression. So I'll close there. And happy to feel that any questions. Okay, thank you. Can I ask you on you want to come to the jardine. Thanks chair. Okay, so. Yeah. Yes, will be the answer to David's questions or suggestions, but my question originally was. Practitioners leaders leaders keep us. Are they the same people. That's my first question. And you offered to explain. Well, that we could look at in more detailed progression. So, I'll just leave it with the one question because I was getting a little bit. Assess assessments on assessment. You know, that they're actually. Thank you. Sorry. I'm not sure. I'm just asking Dave. Did you die. Did you get the question. So, I'm. Chanting thanks for your question. So you broke up a little bit. And I think it might have been to do with the sound. Maybe my end. I'm not sure. I get there is a difference between assessment. Okay, because that's an overall process by which we understand people progress and assessments or activities. So I wanted to understand that. So there's the difference in terms of. I suppose I think what I'm getting at. I think what you're getting at is. You'd like to know more about those three things I'm trying to understand which one should we focus on because if we were to go for a broad view of assessment and you want to get some effective practice we're going to get a really broad. View of that across ones. I don't know how helpful that might be. If we were to look at progression that would ask me and other officers to look at how schools understand the development of pupils skills knowledge and experience. And that's quite specific and we would be able to sort of seek effective practice and share how governing bodies and practitioners are doing work in towards that understanding. That's lovely is that okay you've on. Yeah, that's fine. But my other question was leadership practitioners. Are they what we know called teachers? Yeah, really good. Really good question. Yeah, but we don't we don't just use the word teachers. If on because practitioners describe the workforce that are alongside in front of next to children, because there's teaching assistants. There's coaches there's mentors there's teachers as we know them. So we use the word practitioners to describe the wealth and then leaders. We are talking about in broad sense senior leaders that drive the system of assessment in the school. Okay. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. That's lovely. Thank you. We want Councillor Robert Smith. Do you want to call Helen in first gen then because I think I want to come in afterwards if I can. Certainly Helen. Yeah, I'm just wondering if coach Smith and I are going to say the same thing. But it's in relation to a very complex landscape that we've just heard about. And I think the committee's role here would be to clarify and simplify that landscape. So that schools potentially have a product with a swanzy stamp on it at the end of this. Process where the committee really has fed into that process where we've been able to unpack what all of this means really in a very helpful practical way because we know the professionals we've been discussing today are very much. You know, wanting to understand and unpack and have this clarified to them. And I think there's a role for the local authority to do that and for the committee to provide that clarity and simplification across the range of elements that I described to the committee. So that's something to consider in terms of the final product. And that's lovely. Thank you very much, Helen. The two hands up now. So, so I go back to Council Robert Smith. Yeah, I was going to echo something what Helen said because I think we need something focused. We need something that's useful to schools because there's two things I want to bear in mind here. There's the existing burden on schools and we're all too familiar with schools and school leaders in particular, but all our school practitioners are feeling the burden of work at the moment. There's a huge amount of expectation of them, and we need to be doing something that's going to assist and take some of that heavy lifting away from them, rather than for this to become yet another burden sometimes we don't know how to the task to schools. It's going to take their life easier if we can get within a possible diet. I thought that was an excellent one. I think, you know, the distinction between assessment and assessments is crucial. I wish there was a little bit more clarity and a little bit more leadership at Welsh government level on this to be honest with you. I would say, of course, is that we need to bear in mind the purpose of assessment. Primarily, it's assessment for learning. It's about identifying where learners are at, what, what they're able to do, but also what are the next steps and how do, how do we tailor our teaching and learning to ensure that every child is able to fulfill his or her potential. The assessment evidence we've got shows what they're able to do and what the gaps are for a better word, and how that can be addressed. So it's about meeting learners neither. There's another issue. And again, I don't think national policy has got this right yet. I think, you know, it needs to think about it with you the whole accountability regime. I mean, I'm the last person that would want to go back to measuring rigidly. What's what each pupil is doing at school level so that we can compare schools and then what what the end of the day, what does that achieve but that said there is a need for some kind of accountability. We can't have a system that operates without any evidence of where schools are, are right. And I think marring the two things or other the two things are separate because there's a lot of resistance using evidence that's used for assessment for learning. And accountability purposes and I think there's, there are issues there, but the two things need to be, maybe don't need to be locked up. But I think primarily I would, I feel I know how others feel we'll probably be talking about the former the assessment for learning element here more than the accountability element. Lovely. Thank you very much, Robert. I'm Angela Hopkins, Ben. Yeah, I totally agree with everything that Helen and Robert have just said, and thank you very much David for that presentation. It was very useful. I do worry about the burden that is on schools at the moment with everything, even if it's, it's just juggling finances without everything else they have to do which is really hard. I like the idea of the fact that you're involving and want to get a more on board the governing bodies because they do play an important role. And to take them and to get them a understanding of what these assessments are. I totally agree with the way that they're going forward. And as you are right, it's not all schools are the same, and it is, it is, it's a better way of us not comparing and saying this school is better than that school, because every school has a quality of the area is different. Every school in Swansea has a different approach. You know, people are sitting different governing bodies will see that. So I totally agree with what the way they're going forward and I'd support it at whatever your suggestion is you to make things easier for the process for the schools to carry on. Lovely. Thank you very much. There's a couple of comments from me just to reinforce please put your hands up indicate if you want value committee members. There's a lot in there. There's a lot of comments in there. A couple of comments in and I'll sort of run round off hopefully what other members have said and Robert and Helen. I'm going to say I haven't seen that in my own experience and I pray for the day that that happens where the inspectors step with the school and in an encouraging and supportive way. I'm going to ask a question. I'm just asking question, not really one or two of these might be rhetorical. Is it any move a foot for 360 degree feedback of Western inspectors. That would be interesting for me so that they come in, they do the inspection go away, but what about the community? What about the governing bodies? What about the school staff or what about the children's perspective of their own school environment, and the inspection process that would be interesting for me. What about the focus on assessment or assessment so get the distinction between the two and the key has got to be the practical reality of the child's experience so not on a theoretical philosophical discussion about the terminology, etc. But I think the drive, I think for this committee needs to be about the Swansea way and the distance traveled in the practical real world of governing bodies and the teams who run the schools. Question about this idea of principles day. Are we talking about rules or are we talking about ways of working and culture. How we do things around here. How we do things in Swansea. What is the hallmark, the stamp of the Swansea way. Rather than rules, you will obey, you will adhere to this rule. That's is it a distinction to draw there's a question to think about people on a page when we had in previous versions of this committee information from. So we could see a holistic summary of the child's progress where the child was and any barriers or blocks likely blocks in the progress of that individual and that was I think really quite interested. The overarching comment based on your three questions, a broad view of assessment, looking at assessments and principles of progression. Not in theory, but rooted in effective practice. What works for the child, the child, I mean, all the broad scope of children. And what does success look like, what works for specific children in specific environments. Absolutely echo what Councillor Hobkin says, all schools have great value. All schools have different cohorts, they have different communities, they have different challenges. It's like an old graphic equalizer, you know, some have to turn this up high, some have to turn that down high, so we have to be flexible and meet in the needs. But what works, what is effective and sharing that best practice. So I do understand the powerful role of the Welsh government and guidance and all the rest of it, but but less invert the triangle. What's most important for the frontline for us in Swansea and where do we see success that needs to be applauded and learned from so that peer support as we look to to promote excellence and effective best practice. I would suggest would be more of the emphasis rather than on less practical realities. I don't know if that makes sense does it? Hopefully it does, but thank you for a very thorough and challenging introduction in this very important area. Do we have any other comments before we move forward. Okay, well, thank you very much for that diet is very helpful, and I don't think that anybody's in the business of overburden in the overburden. We do send the bureaucracy is of critical importance, and if in the process of change as we go forward, we can take something off the workload of schools, where well let's take it off. I'm back to the burning of the bonfire of bureaucracy in my own thinking or do less be more effective. Can we show that we have more happy children in Swansea schools in future than we do today. How do we measure that? I don't care, but let's see if we can. Councillor Robert Smith. Yeah, I think in terms of moving things forward chair, but what I would suggest then is that we ask. Perhaps you myself, Helen and I can meet before the next meeting and reflect on the comments that have been made. In the meeting this afternoon. I'll come up with a proposal for the committee in terms of where we take things forward based on what Dyer said this afternoon, the presentation is given. And as I said earlier, I think that was a, you know, a really run through. Of a very complex issue. So I think that there are things we need to take on board and perhaps we can come back then to the July meeting with a focus proposal of where the committee could go with this moving forward over the next. All this next to them. Yeah, good sensible. A suggestion there fully in support of that committee members, thumbs up in agreement with that contentment. Lovely. If the committee are happy, then we can ask officers to schedule a meeting for the full of us within the next few weeks if that's okay. Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to it very much. The last question, the last point I wrote on you, I'm going to assess in who's being assessed and why. What the purpose is, and what about the people engagement with the process of assessment of the schooling in the round. In the children's rights agenda. So can they assess the teachers? Can they have more contact with the school in the round and have their own view echoed and in the process of change. Well, again, chair, you know, we talk about involvement of pupils within the assessment. That's one of the things that the OECD has highlighted as a common feature of high performing systems across the world. And I think, you know, it does mean it's part of learner voice, but it's about engaging learners in understanding their strengths on understanding where they need to go. And the areas would develop and so I think, you know, that again, fits in with our. He thought as a local authority, what we've committed was as a council in terms of the UN CRC and so on. So I think again, we're in line with international good practice, but the key thing here again is about implementation and how do we make that a reality. Excellent. Thank you very much for that, Robert. So are we content committee? I think we are. I can't see anybody indicating. I'm looking around the rules, no counselors in the room. I don't know why I'm doing that. But you see, you see more in agreement and content. So on that point, can we move forward to look at behavior next? Does anyone want to introduce this? It comes to Smith or Helen. I'm happy to start chair. Happy. Happy if you want to say a few words. Yes, absolutely. Yes, carry on. Yeah, so obviously when we started to explore themes for this municipal year, we know that we needed to do a piece of work to help schools with people progress, but very, not very recently, but during the last academic year. We can see that some of our approaches to supporting positive behavior in schools probably would benefit from some oversight by this committee as well, because we know behavior of papers needs a lot of attention and we need to have different tactics potentially to support our schools and more importantly to support the learners themselves. So I think this is a really important topic. And yes, it's linked to the one on people progression inevitably, you know, we need both to be in the right, but I think this is a discernible work stream that we can work together as a committee with you as a committee. And we've got to think Kate in the room there with you Kate had a wonderful owners and Helen, how was team manager for people support to guide you through the background really why this is such an important topic now. Thank you Helen is Helen Helen how well is online. She's not a lot of Helen is not in the room. Helen, you're just kidding. Brilliant, thank you. So on that point over to Kate Phillips thank you Kate. Thank you, thanks. I just shared a presentation so that's okay chair I'll just talk through the key points. So the purpose really of the presentation is to set a bit of context to highlight the current issues and to consider some next steps and potential actions. So I thought it was probably important in the first instance to offer a definition of behavior and we've talked this afternoon about how important it is in terms of the potential impact. But I think understanding exactly what that means is it would be helpful. So it's described as the way in which one conducts oneself especially towards others, but importantly, I think for the work that we're looking to do. It's around the way in which a person behaves in response to a particular situation or stimulus. I think that's really important as part of the discussions, and that there's always a reason for the ways in which people behave, whether that's positively negatively or neutrally. And so considering those broader environmental factors are really important. In terms of the approach that we've advocated in Swansea over a period of time, we have that we believe that we have a very learner centered approach to supporting positive behavior. Our inclusion strategy is a key document that outlines our approaches, and that really hangs around supporting emotional health and psychological well being on making sure that we have the appropriate support for learners with additional learning needs. And making sure that that support is a needs led approach, so that we can respond to individuals needs as and when they arise. And we also look to consider our learning environment. And those are really important principles for us, but we also know that our current position is impacted by a number of factors and we've got a challenging position at the moment. So there's some information here to detail the current position in relation to exclusions. It's a blunt measure in some ways in terms of behavior, but it does. I think it's really important because there's a raft of research into the impact of exclusions, particularly in relation to later life in relation to the impact on adults. And so we can see from this diagram here, but in exclusions, both fixed term and permanent have steadily increased in Swansea over the last five years. And that's not a position that we want to be in. We also know that we are seeing an increased number of learners who are on reduced timetables and attendance is lower than we would like it to be at Swansea schools. And I think that that's really important because there are reasons behind that that we need to am pick to understand why our children and young people are not able to attend school in the way that we would hope that they would when we talk about issues of learner progress and the children have to be there in order to make any progress at all. And we need to make sure that we support attendance as an inclusion matter. We also know that we've got a high demand on our specialist places and there's separate work, which this committee has helped us consider around supporting sufficient specialist places. And when we talk about the importance of environment and providing the right setting for children and young people developing our specialist provision is really important to support children with their progression and with their behaviors. We know if we don't get it right that there are increased costs to the education director and also increased costs to the council, because these can be challenging situations where we need to sort independent solutions. But also what's really important is if we don't get these matters right. There's reduced life chances for children and young people. So every day at school is an important day and we need to maximize the opportunities for children and young people to have access to education. In terms of the reason, sort of understanding some of the reasons why we're in this difficult situation. There's a lot of research and, you know, they're identified potential reasons for behavior. So what we've seen as an increase in both additional learning needs and in neuro diversity. That's not for any moment to suggest that children with A.L.N. or children who are neurologically diverse, have challenging behaviors, but what it does mean is that we don't get our environments in schools right, which we talked about the beginning about the importance of responding to an environment appropriately. If those environments aren't right, aren't need led and aren't appropriate, then children will find it difficult to access education in those environments. And we do know that there is a correlation between additional learning needs and exclusions, and that potentially tells us that our environments for children with additional learning needs are not always as they should be. So we need to consider different approaches. We do know as well that there is some inconsistency in terms of ethos and approaches across our different education settings. We've seen some we know that there's some really excellent practice which we would like to identify to share and to celebrate and perhaps to use to support those who may find it a little bit more difficult to manage the school environments to upskill and develop that capacity and resilience. We know that there's been an impact post pandemic on a raft of issues, emotional health and wellbeing, attendance, and it's not that we can entirely lay that those issues at the, as the outcome of the pandemic, but I think we have seen a very different changing landscape since the return to school full time from COVID closures. And some of these difficulties have led to some challenges in terms of recruitment. And there's a lot of evidence coming through that there are difficulties in recruiting teachers, teaching assistants, educational psychologists and specialist teachers. And that is, is a difficulty for schools, and we know how hard it is to manage if you haven't got appropriate staffing. We also know that for children and young people. They'll be always perhaps influenced by the adults in their lives those those people are key to supporting young people with their emotional health and wellbeing and if they themselves have some anxieties and some concerns then that creates anxiety within a system. And there are also elements I think that we have to be aware of within society that make the situation quite challenging. We know that there's a cost of living crisis and that we have high instances of poverty. And there's a social media, I think is children seem to understand it in many ways better than we do and that's a difficulty. There's a gap between our understanding of the use of social media and screens and children's young people and it's a really important element of their lives, but can have some, some negative as well as sometimes positive consequences too. There are issues with fapes use of drugs and alcohol, and we will have seen it's very prevalent in the press increase in society in terms of violent crimes. And I think that those are elements that are often reflected then in schools schools become a microcosm of society so we did something that we should be aware of and, you know, concerned by. I just wanted to share almost to conclude really on some of the challenges and infographic which really highlights to me I think the reason why that the correlation between additional learning needs and correct environments is so important. And so this is something that has come in relation to speech and language and communication. And what it tells us is that 32% of children with speech language and communication needs live in areas of high social disadvantage. And just under 5% of school children in Wales will have a speech and language communication need. Why that's important is that it means that 30% of children in Wales with additional learning needs who have that speech language and communication are in our schools today and we need to really find ways to support them. Of those children with social emotional behavior difficulties, 81% of them have communication needs that haven't been previously identified. And when we consider then the impact on learner progress. So 61% of children with speech language and communication needs did not meet their expected levels across core subjects at the end of key stage three, and children with lower vocabulary scores age five or twice as likely to experience periods of unemployment in adulthood. So when we think of our commitments under well being a future generations really critical that we address these important issues now. This 90% of our care levers have below average language ability and none of those young people had previously been diagnosed with speech language and communication needs so having that awareness is really critical. And the most powerful statistic really I think is that 71% of children sentenced in the youth justice system in England and Wales had speech language and communication needs so we see that direct correlation between our critical role really in supporting the language learning environments and needs led approach in terms of preventing escalation for, you know, challenging situations. So, you know, in terms of some kind of recommendations along the end in that orange column around what we can do potentially to help prevent this situation, supporting families from any background to provide a positive communication environment to help the language development respond to children's actions and words is key to their speech and language and communication development. And just modest investment into training. Early years practitioners can have a really high impact on children's speech language and communication outcomes so it's, you know, it's specific to a particular area but I think it really evidences the correlation between our support for learners needs and how that can be a positive impact if we get it right, but negative, if we don't. So, just to conclude. Okay, so if we just consider as local authority, what our obligations are. The local authority has got a duty to promote high standards of education and that's in accordance with section five of the school standards and framework. So this is something that that is our legal obligation as well as a moral obligation. And Swansea Council have got a behavior policy for schools. So I think that, you know, we know that it's probably time to review that now given the changing landscape, both in terms of education and society. I mentioned the inclusion strategy earlier and that really underpins our kind of thinking any thoughts and approach in terms of behavior, but it's about how we reflect that now in the policy and strategy that we have in place. We want to also support schools and governing bodies to meet their obligations. And I talked about the long term impact, what they can have on learner progress, and I think in considering our obligations against the well being a future generations that really evidences that this is a critical area to work on. So the current position really indicates that a change is needed for policy. So in terms of our next step, how we would propose to do that, but would welcome really feedback from the committee in terms of whether this feels like the right approach. And if there's a willingness to support us with this, we would be looking at partnership work. I don't think given the impact of the broader elements of society that we can do this alone. We need impact from our partners across relevant agencies. So we would look to review our policy, particularly around identifying good practice and promoting that and potentially looking at a working group to take that work forward, potentially with feedback and input from this committee if you consider it appropriate. That's that. I can't see anyone indicating, please indicate colleagues, Kate, that that was full of meat and fascination. I've got to say that I found that very, very engaging indeed. Are we going to hand up your can I see I can see him die. Go on, please. Sorry chair. Just to somebody's mentioned it earlier on, but Kate and I, the two service areas are trying our best to collaborate. And ultimately, I don't think we can remove the barriers that exist to people progress from the work that Kate has described. So I wonder if there's an opportunity to think a little bit more smartly when we present outcomes and findings in the future. Yeah, Joe, so that we can link the work of the two items together potentially in some way if that would streamline things slightly. Thank you. Really great. The collaboration. Can I, did you say you can't remove the barriers? Did you say that? Sorry. No, you, they're linked on day. We can't, we can't, you know, disaggregate the fact that people might not make progress from the work that Kate has described, you know, they're, they're being there, ask you to learn and their behavior is going to impact, you know, severely on their ability to make progress. So it makes sense for the two pieces of work to be clearly linked in some way. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Can I just say to the absolutely agree with that collaboration is essential and the program of efforts and what progress we are looking for depending on the child. Every child has got potential and we've got to be smarter in identifying that potential. Maybe a little steps for us, huge strides for the individual child. Sorry, comes to Rob Smith, please. No, no, no, just to echo what what I have said, because I think in terms of focusing on the end product, the output, which we're looking at from the committee's work, you know, the two things. It's like the legs of the same table and they tenders behavior and outcomes, they're all, and then if they're all tied up together, and you can't have one with the others and endorse and entirely what, what are you saying that. Lovely. Thank you, Robert. I can't see anyone indicating, but please do indicate as I tried to summarize some of my perspectives of this. And partnership Kate, one of the closing points there absolutely opened this up quite widely partners for me crucial for us to understand the impact of alcohol and substance misuse on the life of the family and the life of the child. So I strongly suggest that we work closely with South Wales police, and we do anyway, but engage with South Wales police. I know some of my colleagues in South Wales police have done a lot of work and engage in substance misuse users to try to see things from the substance misuse users perspective, and that's super intended I'm sure would be happy to help us with his work, but chase me up after so I can let you know, but on the substance misuse agency does fantastic work in Swansea. And of course, colleagues from child and family social services. They almost need not be said because a partnership is so close with them. So, so that partnership. And what would be fantastic. Is it a sense of predictability year, my thoughts go back to 1957 I'm not that old before anyone says it, but in 1957, the level of gang violence and knife crime in Swansea around Swansea's places of public entertainment was such that the home office created a by law for those places of public entertainment, because people who are now 80 couldn't stop themselves fighting each other, while they were rocking around the clock and stabbing each other. That's truth. That's factual. Right. So, so we got these issues in every kind of generation as we go forward. Now, the great right that Jonathan hate H I D T published a book this year called the anxious generation. And Jonathan Jonathan points out in the last 15 years, we've seen significant downward trends in behavior of children internationally. And he says, there's two reasons for this and there are clear ways forward for him. He says that there's been a decline in free play and a hypning of parental anxiety about kids going outside stranger danger. Watch out. So kids live under the helicopter of the family protection far too long compared to what we used to. And the second point is the increase use of smartphones as an evil in society backed up with raw bust data. So these are some of the issues. I think that that could come to me as we went forward. And that heightened anxiety. The world is a dangerous place. I'm a fragile young person and I'm terrified. And my nervousness knows no bounds. So it's such an important area for us. Do we understand what we mean when we talk about challenging behavior. I remember the case that ended up very well publicized going to the high court when there was a case. Quite locally of the child being excluded all the rest of it. Do we understand challenging behavior? Do we understand how teachers are trained to cope with their behavior in schools? How are teachers trained? Do they have, for example, prevention and management of violence and aggression training? Do they have experience of working with those challenging young people? So if you're a young teacher, have you worked with the justice team in a children's home? Have you worked in behavioral support? Have you done that? Have you seen extreme behaviors from young people? Because if you have, and then you see it for the first time, it's terrifying. And you don't know what to do. So it's critical that we look at this in an open and transparent way. I'd suggest. And in the same way, understanding neurodiversity. Let's unpick the key terms here. Why have we seen an increase? Have we seen an increase due to societal differences that he will lose to increasing amounts of alcohol abuse, substance abuse, fetal origins. And this data is available, adverse childhood experiences. So we can really try to drill down to unpack the layers of the deprivation and neon, if you like, to understand these issues. And then critically, the whole thing comes together. I think, as you alluded to again, Kate, with this focus on adult influence of their children and how we try it. We, that's the royal, we know, we don't knit together. How are we engaging with parents and carers of children right across Swansea? And how are we engaging with communities to try to identify and look for solutions to the problems we face? So again, exclusions, why the spiral, spiraling of exclusions and how is it, and it's very different. We can't compare. Child and family social services with the education contest, but we can't exclude children in the child and family social service context. We don't. We can't, regardless of the behavior of children. So what learning techniques, what tools do we see used in child and family social services to engage the disengaged to bring that child and the young person back on board and to see a reduction in their extreme, sometimes extreme behavior patterns. So I'm going to just stop with those comments. It is such an important area. And just to finish off on Dye's point backed up by cabinet member Robert Smith. This is such an important area. Collaboration is key. And the challenge is looking at the barriers and looking at the blockers. So the bad, what are the barriers that are in the way of the child's learning and the child's attendance or the child's progress and who can help to remove them. And sometimes that's not counselors. It's not governing bodies, chairs and members. It's not teachers or practitioners in school. They take your point very well there. It's not those people. It's someone who went to school with the disruptive father, who lives around the corner. Who can have an open and honest conversation that that person will listen to in a way that he won't listen to from anyone else, especially not the police or anyone perceived to be in a position of authority. So let's be imaginative in seeing how we put this together. And I would wholeheartedly support the idea of a workshop or Kate or some detailed focus to see how we can take this together. And I'm very conscious that we suddenly need 18 committee meetings following on from these two brilliant reports. So we've got six or seven. So on that point, I would ask for any concluding comments for committee members, any thoughts, any perspectives. Are we in agreement or stepping with Kate in the way that she has proposed? Are we content? Well, again, Jan, not for me, as a cabinet member determine what the committee is doing, but what I would say is, as we agreed, in relation to the previous item, I think if if it could join our discussion with you, myself. And then we can focus on the proposal for the committee for the next meeting. If that's agreeable. Thank you, Robert. It does make sense. But what I'd like committee members to think about. And I'll ask you in a separate email, whether you think that a workshop included in the committee members would be beneficial to some of these areas are broad and quite complex. Would the workshop have, I'm content for us to come together to, to, you know, you and I meant as a separate, sorry, as a separate piece of work. Sorry. Right, right. There we go. Okay, so I think that we've got a clear way forward. I can't see anybody indicating. And again, thank you, Kate, and thank you, Diane, for two hugely important reports that I look forward to seeing develop in the, in the municipal year. And hopefully to be as fruitful as last year's seat as a meeting was. No one indicated. There's no one indicated. Is there a goal? Right. Okay. It's quite small on my screen. That's why I'm squinting away here. Okay, so that is excellent. Thank you very much indeed for that. So we can move on now to agenda item number six. And that's the date and time of meetings. Now we are proposing. We've got all the dates in front of us there. At six week intervals and we propose in that all the meetings will be held on a Wednesday afternoon at four o'clock. So, hopefully that won't prove too contentious for everyone. Are we in agreement? Can I see thumbs up, nodded heads committee members? Are we content? Okay. Thank you, Linda. No one disagreeing. So I'm assuming that we're all happy with that. Okay. Wow. That was a full and detailed meeting. I've got a buzz of excitement. The adrenaline is kicking through me, honestly, this is genuinely exciting work that we've got ahead of us on that point. I can see no one else indicating. Can I thank everybody for their contribution committee members and officers today and how you like the fact that our next meeting is Wednesday the 24th of July at four o'clock. And on that point, I will close the meeting. Thank you all very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO]

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