Transcript

So the recording has restarted. Thank you. Thank you and thank you for your patience. Thank you for your patience. The whole of this afternoon probably I should say, but thank you for your patience just while the panel deliberated. I can say we have reached the following conclusion, so I will read out what the panel have agreed this afternoon following what we've heard from all parties. So number one is the live music to be restricted to the inside of the premises only after 8pm. Number two, no alcohol to be sold in the outside area after 8pm. Number three was no alcohol to be consumed outside after 8pm. And regarding the New Year's Eve, it was agreed by the panel the sale of the alcohol to cease at 12 midnight, music to cease at 12.30am and the premises to be closed by 1am. That was because there was a specific separate line regarding New Year's Eve, so hopefully those are clear. That is regarding New Year's Eve only. And just to note really that we did note the concerns with the ejector regarding the noise and obviously soundproofing the hall is not something that's within this panel's remit, but it may be something that the committee may wish to address in future, but obviously that's funding permitting, but that's not within our gift to suggest you may do that. So all the conclusions will be forwarded to you in writing and along with the information of how you may wish to appeal, because obviously you can if you wish to do so, but that will all be sent to you in writing from Rachel and that leaves me to thank you all for attending this afternoon and to conclude the hearing. Rachel is that everything in order? It is chair, yes. I will follow up in writing as soon as possible. Thank you. So thank you everyone for your patience and I apologise to those that had to join later and it wasn't live, but we got there in the end, so thank you to everyone who joined us. So we'll formally close the meeting now. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you chair. Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO]

Transcript

Transcript

chair the meeting has now started. Lovely, thank you Carol. Thank you and thank you for your patience. It gives me great delight to welcome you all finally to this meeting. So apologies to those people that were watching live on the webcast at home or wherever you may have been. Unfortunately due to a technical hitch we were unable to broadcast the meeting live so we've entered a Teams meeting that is being recorded and will be uploaded simultaneously as soon as this meeting finishes it will be available to view so hopefully that will be acceptable to everyone. So first it gives me a great pleasure to welcome you all officially to the application for a variation of premises licensed at the St Mary's Church Hall, the Parish Hall in Lion Street Hay and Wye. And our first job would be for me to introduce myself as chair of this meeting. So I'm Councillor Beverley-Bainham. I actually represent the Prestine Ward in Paris County Council and I am a member of the Licensing Committee and I will be chairing this hearing this afternoon. So I will go around us all one at a time if that's okay and then just allow you to introduce yourselves and I will do it in the order of my list. So first on my list I've got Councillor Adrian. Hello I'm Councillor Adrian Jones from the Bayview and Castle Coronion Ward. Thank you. Thank you Adrian. Councillor Hugh. Yes I'm Councillor Hugh Williams. I represent the Estragonalles part of Paris. Thank you. And then I've got Josh so I believe if you introduce yourself one at a time would be lovely. Yes I'm Josh Boyd-Greene. I look after the Parish Hall on a kind of day-to-day basis. Thank you. And I'm Stuart Pritchard. I'm a church warden at St Mary's and have a certain amount of control over the Parish Hall. Lovely, thank you both. Then I've got Rosemary. Hi I'm Rosemary Furman. I live opposite the Parish Hall and I'm here representing my husband Roger as well as myself. Thank you Rosemary. Martin. Hi everybody, Martin Phillips, Paris County Council Licensing Officer. Thank you Martin. Rachel. Good afternoon yes Rachel Miles-Lister and I'm Clark to this review here in this afternoon. And Carol would you like to introduce yourself as well? It's muted and unmuted I think. You've gone back on mute Carol. Sorry Carol Johnson, Democratic Services Officer. Thank you and thank you Carol for your perseverance and getting us all into this meeting this afternoon. So welcome everybody once again. Thank you for the introductions. I think at this moment it would be appropriate if I hand over to Rachel and she will explain the procedure of the meeting at the hearing. Thank you Rachel. Thank you Chair. Yes hopefully you will have all received the Order of the Hearing this afternoon. But I will just run through that for clarity for everyone. So first of all Mr Phillips as the Council's representative will present the report to the hearing today and the panel can raise any questions they want arising from that. The applicant will then have the opportunity to put their case forward and the panel and objector can raise any questions based on that. It's then the objectors opportunity to put forward their objections their case and then the Chair will invite concluding remarks from all parties. Thereafter the panel together with myself will withdraw from this room, enter a separate room to deliberate. Once the decision has been reached we will return to this room. The decision will be delivered together with the reasonings and I will confirm at this stage as soon as possible thereafter I will follow that up in writing to both the applicant and objector the decision together with the reasonings. Thank you Chair. Thank you Rachel. I hope that's clear for everyone but anyway as Rachel said you have got an agenda in your pack which hopefully you've all had time to review. So we'll move on then and I will invite Martin Phillips as the Council's representative to present the report on on their behalf. Thank you Martin. Thank you. The report in front of you this afternoon is an application to vary a premises license for the Parish Hall Lion Street Hay on Wye. On the 9th of April 2024 a variation application was received to vary the current premises license at the Hay Parish Hall submitted by the Church Council for St Mary's Church Hay on Wye. Location map of the premises is set out at Annex A and a copy of the application and the plan of the premises are reproduced at Annex B. Hay Parish currently holds a premises license for entertainment and has held that license since 2006 January 2006. In the intervening years they have held events with alcohol was sold by serving temporary event notice notifications. These events have been run without any problems and no complaints have been received. The applicant and the licensing authority satisfied the procedural obligations by consulting the responsible authorities and advertising the application. The applicant has applied to vary the current premises license to include the sale of alcohol and to extend the licensable area to include the forecourt as indicated on the plan and to extend the licensing hours for New Year's Eve. Representations we the responsible authorities the Environmental Protection Office had requested that the licensing hours for the outside be restricted and end at 2300 hours which the applicants have agreed to. We had a number two representations which are attached at Annex C from members of the public making representations. The options before you this afternoon in determining the application for the premises license the subcommittee must take such steps as considered appropriate to promote the licensing objectives which are the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, the prevention of public nuisance and the protection of children from harm. If appropriate make reference to the Licensing Act 2003 guidance and the licensing policy if it relates to any of the points raised by the objectives. The options are to grant the licenses submitted by the applicant without modification with the exception of the inclusion of mandatory conditions made under section 19 of the Licensing Act supply of alcohol or grant the license with modified conditions or to reject the whole or part of the application. The determination the licensing subcommittee is requested to determine this application. Thank you Martin. Is there anything anyone on the panel that wants to ask a question and Martin at this stage? Thanks for Hugh. Yes thank you chair. The parish hall has held a license since 2006 and during that time some temporary events have been held. Would you have any idea is that a weekly event or how regular do you think those are? No the events held on temporary event notifications are limited to the number of events that can be held in a premises over a year that's what restricts the number of things that can take place. So in total they could have up to 21 days over a period of 12 months or they could hold events over a number of days for instance you can hold an event up to a maximum of seven days on one temporary event notice but these have to be applied for well enough in advance and obviously it's a cost of 21 pounds every time you submit one. Yeah through the chair the point is if they've been asked to happen a regular week is an indication really that there still haven't been any complaints so it sort of suggests that they're well managed so that is the point of my question really in how often do you think those temporary events have been held. Thank you, thank you Councillor Hugh. Is there anyone else that wants to raise a question on what they've heard from Martin at this stage? I can't see anyone so we will move on now to the applicant. I'm not sure Stuart you are officially the applicant but Josh is I'm not sure which one of you is representing during the I think Stuart's going to do the most that he put the application in. I'll do any kind of supplementary stuff and also I'm kind of probably because I do it on a day-to-day basis more likely to answer any questions that you will raise. Understood thank you so over to you Stuart to put forward your applicant application. Yes this is really just to make the parish hall more appealing to people who are running events. We did this a number of years ago at St Mary's church where we have a license and we serve wine at concerts and such like and it all works very well. To do it down here in the parish hall slightly different premises because it's not an actual church but nonetheless it's a large and very useful building we want to see used to the maximum. It is also about at the moment possibly the only place in town of this nature. I'm just representing the church the church council we all agree on this that it would be a good idea. Now if this meeting this appeal has to be tweaked well it'll have to be tweaked but we don't think we put in for too much. Josh knows day-to-day precisely how this goes on here and as far as I'm aware we've not had any trouble at all. I think we've not had any particular trouble. I think we had five events last week because it was hay festival and it's quite a unique time. There were five events over an 11-day period so a week and a half so that is very unusual but that is because the festival was on. Usually we don't have anywhere near that level in fact we probably do less than one a month. We would still as I mean myself I do the bookings I would under normal circumstances we're not looking to greatly increase the amount of like loud events that are on as in like I know there was some concern initially someone approached me and thought we were going to be open every day with a like a pub and because it was a permanent license and that's obviously not the case. It's more to make it just simpler for the people using it and for ourselves more appealing definitely and the other side of it is we possibly need to do you know maybe one a month or something like that to do some to do some fundraisers because the whole currently loses money. We would like it to make money. Thank you, sorry Stuart carry on. It's all right just one other thing that suddenly occurred to me. Sometime last year we had an exceptionally bad hurricane type weather on a Thursday which is market day in town and it was difficult for the market authorities to move some of the stalls inside which they wanted to do because there was no license on the premises whereas if we have a license for the premises here we're in a position then for any short notice events to be moved in legitimately. Thank you, thank you both. I just need to ask is there anyone on the panel that would like to ask a question? Councillor Adrian. Thank you chair. I just want to delve into the outside space part of the application please because I understand you don't have many events a year. So how important is the outside space to serving alcohol and having live music because I can imagine that might be something that's quite important to the objectors for example. So how do you envisage the use of that in the future? I mean we think there's a two-fold answer to that really. The first one is for something like like Stuart said so for something that's like a pop-up market obviously being able to have stalls at the front as well positive but it does you know for something like an evening event obviously it wouldn't be the sale of alcohol outside but people taking their alcohol outside rather than keeping it completely inside. How important is that? If that was the major objection I personally wouldn't be opposed to that being removed because it is I mean I live as Rosemary will know I live five four doors away from the parachute and you know I have a two-year-old I do not want it to be particularly loud but so it if that was the major objection I wouldn't be opposed to it to it being removed. My I suppose the reason we we put it in was because that particularly for for kind of something like a like a birthday party a grown-up's birthday party or like a kind of wedding reception or such things that have been held here that ability to move that partially outside is really positive but I agree that that has the potential then for it to be 11 pm and people drinking outside and that's that's a different thing I don't know if you can vary it so you could have a day license for outside and not an evening license I don't know how quite how this works but I can see why that would be a concern. The other option is that we could simply not tell you know like say that's not part of the the booking for evening evening bookers but for things like a birthday party a wedding particularly a kind of summary event there was largely day or early evening based and for things like markets I think I think it there's a real positive to that but it comes with this potential issue. Of course thank you it's not just the alcohol I mean it's the live music as well potentially you could have a festival I don't know a band outside right and I think that might just be a concern to residents. We've got no intention sorry we've got no intention of doing that absolutely not I don't think do we unless Stuart's planning a no I'm not a rave he's not told me about but no that it wasn't really for that it was more in terms of something like a market. I understand okay. Yeah we've got no no plans to put any kind of music outside and that would be in the kind of booking process if someone approached me for that I would say no it's it's it's just just inside but yeah sorry I hadn't I hadn't really clocked that could be part of the concept. Thank you. Councillor Hugh did you have a question? Yeah just so these groups would be self-restricting in a way that this license and this extension is it's not an open access bar as such it is restricted to the group that that hires the parish hall is that's the way you want it submitted and so there's no open access? Yes and no I mean a lot of times it's something like you know it's something like that's a party that's booked the whole it's it's it as you say it's kind of inclusive but there are events running here for example if we've done fundraisers or last week there were there were a couple of music events that are kind of open events they booked the hall to put you know a band played last week and and people came and on a tens license they they you know they bought bought alcohol so mostly they're kind of yeah they're kind of restricted to the group that is putting the event on but there are some kind of open to the public events yes. And chair can I follow that up so there were events last week how were those received locally? Yeah I mean in terms of no one no one came to to me with any complaints but I think on one of the nights of the five one person did come over to the hall and and and say that it was it was too loud I don't know that they obviously didn't come to me after that but I mean so there were there was there was one that was on a noise I don't know if it was noise I think it was noise of the music rather than noise of people but that that you know to be perfectly upfront and honest that one of the five events was there was one person came across. Thank you chair. Thank you both so Rosemary as the ejector you are allowed to ask a question of of what you've just heard if you have one. I don't have any questions but I obviously would like to present yes no objections no that's fine we will move on at that point then to to yourself if you want to present whatever you'd like to say to us and you proceed thanks. Thank you very much indeed Councillor Bavelew and everyone else who's here for for agreeing to listen to our conversation on this matter. I'd like to say by saying we think the Parish Hall is a great community asset and absolutely support its increased use and including to the sale of alcohol and we do not object to the extension the variation to allow the sale of alcohol all the time so we're not asking for the rejection of this proposal but rather for some of the conditions in it to be modified because we believe that if it stays as it stands now there is the likelihood of causing a public nuisance and potential harm to children from a sleep deprivation. I'm not sure if everyone knows the Parish Hall that well but you should know that it's on in a built-up residential area and both adjacent to it on both sides and opposite are small terraced houses it is a single carriage one-way street and all the houses open straight onto the pavement so at the most at the midpoint of the hall it's about 19 metres between the very front of the building and the front of the houses opposite and 12 metres from the edge of the forecourt to the houses opposite. Now there are also no our main objection is because of noise I have to say that you should note that the hall is not double glazed and from observation I can say that people hiring it hardly ever close the door and closing the door makes a huge difference to the sound that's coming out of the building and at the moment if there is amplified loud music inside and I would say amplified loud music of a reasonable volume for a concert you can hear it in the buildings opposite. So we think that as it stands the main thing we object to is extending the light and simple area to the forecourt because of bringing both potentially the music and the sale of alcohol out onto the forecourt which is virtually out into the street there's you know so close and also the sheer volume of music now I have one example of this and Josh has already referred to the what's called the Alt Hay Festival that took place in the hall last week and in particular there was one very loud event last Friday evening the 31st of May which was a group called the Breaks and Friends this was amplified very loud music mostly instrumental it was extraordinarily loud I have to say and at 10 30 in the evening the doors were open there were groups of people in the forecourt talking and groups also on the street chatting they were very well behaved but the sheer volume of noise was absolutely astonishing we could hear it clearly in every room in our house and we don't think this is acceptable we think this is the creation of a public nuisance it didn't actually make any formal complaint but I would do in future if that were to happen again so we would like to I know the hall is does not have funds but I think there are some things that could be done to try and mitigate the volume of sound escaping from the hall and one is to require when music is being played amplified music is to keep the door and windows closed it's very simple and it makes a huge difference but having the door open means that all this sound is is just coming out into the street and it was incredibly loud on Friday night ideally one would want in a building of this age anyway to replace the windows and put in double glazing and keeping the door closed and having double glazing would also obviously help with the amount of money that must be spent on heating in the winter when people are hiring the hall and keeping the door open as commonly happens so it's a good thing all around and something I think that should be aspired to and perhaps done progressively there are other things that can be done too there's no sound system in the hall at the moment so everybody has to bring their own in and I doubt there's any regulation of of what is brought in or is anyone checking this is another thing did any member of the church committee attend this event on Friday and did they actually realize just how loud it was so I'd like to ask that there's a reconsideration that the application is accepted but with modifications of not extending the licenseable area to the forecourt during the day for markets such as josh explained absolutely fine but as it stands that could allow someone to bring amplified music onto the forecourt until 11 o'clock at night just not appropriate for this type of area I think also to impose a policy of not allowing people to take drinks outside which I think is a common mitigation factor on premises so that the noise is kept inside as much as possible and to require the windows and doors to be kept closed and so that's what we would like to look forward thank you very much thank you rosemary at this point josh or stewart you have an opportunity to ask a question of the objector it's not for comments it is a question if you have a question from from anything you've just heard yeah no I just just thank thanks for that and that was really nicely put yeah I just ask about the the if if the outside element was made much earlier rather than 11 11 pm but was more of a kind of daytime only thing the alcohol would that be more acceptable and um also I I there's there's a complicating factor because well I can say I would never allow someone to have amplified music outside obviously if it's within the rules you know what happens if I stop being the person who looks after the parish hall and someone else takes over and they're like yeah amplified music I can understand it needs to be absolutely official so um it would be kind of I I can just say um if there's a way of kind of keeping the amplified music inside with you know as much mitigation as possible and the alcohol sales outside only as a daytime um activity would that be acceptable yes I think it would and it seems to me extremely reasonable to be able to have a market type thing outside on the forecourt during the day and sell bottles of alcohol and just just just to follow up quickly and what if that was something like a kind of um like a kind of wedding breakfast kind of event where there was some tables set up outside but there was had a daytime ending time so it was likely to be noisier than a market but it was a daytime only event yes again I don't think that could be taken as causing a public nuisance yeah because I think I think we're getting a bit now into a bit a bit complicated here as to we've got the application in front of us and we've heard from you both so I think it's all we could be here too inferring and debating about what would be acceptable and what wouldn't or for for the next hour so I think I think that's understood I think if that's okay Josh and Rosemary thank you yeah no I think I think we understood so referring back to my agenda panel so Councillor Adrian and Councillor Hugh do you have any questions of Rosemary as the objector no no thank you both thank you so at this point I'm going to invite Josh or Stuart one or the other I don't know who wants to but if you want to just summarise your points very briefly so just maybe two or three minutes just to summarise your points and make a final statement I don't know would you Stuart or Josh whichever you would I'm happy to do that yeah I guess our points that are that the the change in the license is largely to make easier what's happening in the hall already rather than you know change the activities that that are happening in the hall we certainly we're both very local to the hall and that we certainly don't want to increase the the kind of the noise calls from it whilst we do want to make the hall yeah more more appealing to to kind of a wider variety of events thank you yeah no I think that's understood thank you for being clear and concise that's thank you now I just need to check if everyone has had an opportunity to put across their comments anything that anyone feels that they haven't said I just want to make sure that everyone's had an opportunity there's no problem oh thanks to Hugh did you want to yes chair can I ask when there is an event in the hall is there a member of the parish hall committee on site or on call if somebody did complain for instance that the music was too loud is this a person that's contactable during that event yeah um there's not someone on site for every event because I might go mad but um um but um I that every organizer of every event has my contact details so I I am the contactable person if it wasn't me for some reason for example if I was away I would make sure they had someone else's uh contact contact details so so yes is the simple answer sorry that was a really long-winded answer okay thank you chair thank you um anything further that um anyone wants to add no uh Councillor Adrian go on thank you is this getting back to the alcohol licensing aspect surely somebody is named as the license hall there's just not a committee is it is that right Rachel um so somebody would be responsible and be a designated person no okay do you want to to clarify that for Adrian yeah the application for parish halls um they can apply to disapply the responsibility for having an individual which they did at the same time as applying for the license okay so what that does it makes it similar to a member's club yeah and that the responsibility falls on the whole committee to ensure that the alcohol sales are done responsibly okay thank you that's fine thank you chair that was most useful thank you um Rachel can I just check with you that we've covered everything there's nothing no aspect we've missed just for that's correct no just to just to double check so um we will um break out now into um uh a different meeting to have our deliberation as uh and um so I don't know if you want to just sort of put yourself on mute or or um turn your camera off possibly or in and but you're very welcome to leave it on if you want to also um and we will um adjourn this part of the meeting for deliberations and we will come back to you I'm sorry I can't give you a timeline so um you need to just sort of hang hang around there uh so you're in earshot of your computer or phone um and we will be back to you as soon as we can but obviously we do just need to have a conversation so um members of the panel if you want to leave this meeting and then um re uh join the um the separate meeting and then we will rejoin here afterwards and cheer I will I can pause the recording oh good thank you so I'll do that now thank you Carol that's great