Transcript

Transcript

Fazan. Thank you. You're good now. Thank you. We're live. Thank you. Welcome to this virtual licensing subcommittee meeting that is being conducted with members, officers, and members of the public at various locations, communicating via Zoom. There is also the opportunity for the public and press and listen, and view proceedings on the YouTube channel. Please note that the meeting is being livestreamed and the recording will be available following this meeting on our YouTube channel. Before the meeting starts, I would like to confirm that members and officers are in attendance and can hear and be heard. So, Councillor Ian Albert. Yes, thank you. Councillor Keith Hoskins. Yeah, here, thanks. Councillor Tim Johnson. Yes, thank you. Councillor Stephen Patmore. Yes, I can hear you. Okay, thank you. And officers, we have Melanie Gillespie. Yes, I'm here and can hear. Lovely. Thank you. Jasmine Jennings, here, present. Simio Paxi-Cato. Present. And Alina Freda. Pleasance, thank you. Okay, and then we have Alan Stone. Yeah, hi. Good afternoon. Thank you. I'm representing the premises. We have Michael Curtis and Rob Scottfield. Hello. Great. Thank you. Okay, to start off, we have it to an elected chair. Can I please request nominations for the chair of this meeting of the subcommittee? Councillor Ian Albert. Can I have a second to please? Yeah, I'll second that. Thank you. Councillor Ian Albert is there for an elected chair of this meeting and I will now hand over to them. Thank you. Thank you, Susan. Welcome, welcome everyone. So, my name is Ian. I'm chairing the meeting meeting to work today. Now, we need to just to just to agree, a reserve member that's obviously to listen and obviously participate in the hearing, just in case we have any further sort of IT problems. I'd like to propose that Councillor Stephen Patmoor's our reserve member today. Could I have a seconder for that? Yeah, happy to second to him. Thank you, please. Stephen, if you're okay with that, we'll nominate you as our reserve member for the subcommittee meeting. Thank you. Welcome, welcome, welcome everyone, as I say, if obviously if you can sort of go on on mute for unless obviously we're calling you into speak. If we could then move to the hearing procedure and if I can invite the committee clerk to outline the hearing preliminary which is detailed on page three of the agenda. The subcommittee will consist of three voting members with a fourth non participating member listening to the hearing. In the event that a voting member loses connection, the hearing will adjourn until connection can be restored. If the adjournment exceeds 10 minutes or it is apparent sooner that reconnection will not be possible, the fourth member will replace the absent member and become a voting member of the subcommittee. If a quorum of three members that have been present throughout the hearing is not possible, the hearing will be adjourned to us later date. In the event that the applicant loses connection, the hearing will adjourn until connection can be restored. If it becomes apparent that we connection will not be possible, the hearing will be adjourned to a stated date. If another person that has indicated they wish to speak loses connection, the hearing will be adjourned until connection can be restored. If it becomes apparent that we connection will not be possible, the hearing will then be adjourned to a stated date. If another person that has indicated that they will not be participating orally in the hearing loses connection, the chair may decide to continue with the hearing. The subcommittee will undertake the deliberations in private and return to announce their determination on the live stream. However, they will not wait until all parties are connected. A copy of the decision will be forwarded to all parties electronically as soon as practical. Are there any questions before we start the meeting? Okay, I will now hand back to the chair, Councillor Albert. Chair, thank you, thank you, Susan. So if we could kick off, if I could invite a legal advisor, Sir Mel Paxakato to outline the matters for consideration at the meeting. Welcome, Sir Mel. Great for Councillor Albert. So this matter today concerns an application for a standard temporary event notice on the Section 100 of the Licensing Act 2003. As a result of that, the committee has been asked to consider whatever or not following the objection. There should be any conditions imposed. The committee is obviously, and the panel is reminded in when it relates to temporary event notices. The licensing regime is a permissive one, and the panel has to consider whether if there are any conditions to impose those are conditions which effectively reflect and promote the full licensing objectives. Those objectives being the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, the prevention of public nuisance and the protection of children from harm, and that those conditions or any conditions that you might consider imposing would not be consistent, inconsistent with the Karen out devices objectives under temporary event notice. Thank you. Thank you for that. Are there any kind of questions for legal officer? If not, I can't cancel. So if I could then invite the licensing officer to present any additions or amendments to the report. Mel. You're mute at the moment. Mel. Sorry about that. I was trying to do it on the headset. They wouldn't work. Okay. So, thank you. Good afternoon. There are a couple of amendments to the report due to revision on the guidance issued under the 1.82 section of the license and act 2003 in the report in paragraph 7.1. The reference to 15 is corrected to 2.21. The reference to 16 is corrected to 2.22. Excuse me in paragraph 8.12. The reference 2.38 is corrected to 2.27. And the reference 2.233 is also corrected to 2.22. I do have a couple of comments also that relate to the hearing may I remind all parties that today's hearing and any contributions must relate specifically to relevant areas of their representation or an expansion of the points. New information not included in the representation cannot be introduced during the hearing. Discussions should relate to this premises location only. This process should determine how the use of the premises can be managed and what activities, if any, are appropriate in relation to a narrow consideration of the thought licensing objectives. Any matters not relating to the licensing objectives are not relevant to today's hearing and must not be discussed or considered. Subcommittee is reminded that it is determination today must be based on the specifics of this application. The subcommittee must assess the application operating schedule or submissions of the applicant and assess whether it believes that this applicant can adequately promote the licensing objectives. While subcommittee should have regard to the fact that this that the application has satisfied other responsible authorities, the subcommittee is entitled to make further amendments to time in conditions if it deems appropriate to promote the licensing objectives based based on the oral submissions. If the subcommittee is satisfied that there are no appropriate times or committed conditions that will be adequately promote the licensing objectives, it is entitled to refuse the application. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Thanks that, Mel. Does the responsible start in that silence don't have any points for clarification for the licensing officer? No, thank you, Chair. Thank you. And would either of the applicants, either of the applicants, Michael or Rob, if you've got any particular points of clarification at this stage for the, the licensing officer? No, thank you. That's, that's great. And then do any members have any questions at this stage for the licensing officer? No, I can see lots of shaking the heads. Thank you. Thank you for that. Um, so let's then move on to the applicant representation. So, could I, if I either Michael or, or Rob Bondi, join me to present your submission support in your application. I've, I've, I've, did you prefer Mick from the Michael? Is it. I don't really mind. Whichever. Well, thank you, but over to Mick and Rob. Well, Rob's going to speak for me. That's okay. Fantastic. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm just speaking on behalf of Mr Curtis to start with. I've prepared this submission for you today, but I'm very uncomfortable in these situations. I have masked Mr. Scott, the licensee of the industry to read my submission and also that for my wife on my behalf. I've also asked Mr. Scott to read his own submission to you to explain in detail the issue he is facing that has caused his counter notice to my temporary notice. Please be allowed to answer any of your questions on my behalf. My submission, Mr. Curtis's submission, will take about two minutes. My wife is about a minute, Mr. Scott, around 10 minutes. So, Mr. on behalf of Mr. Curtis, my wife and I approached Mr. Scott at the Irish tree some time ago about the possibility of hosting my 60th birthday party A's problem. We drink them regularly. I've been quite, to quite a few events there. We find it enjoyable, safe and well-managed problem. We asked if we could have one of our favorite bands, the Dirty Heart 100, play at the party and to make it an afternoon to early evening affair with a barbecue and lots of our friends. Despite what the name of the band may suggest, the band, or as they describe themselves, are half of your bass band playing funk, soul, rock, rhythm and blues, and well, a little bit of everything actually. They are great fun, very musical and hugely entertaining. Following Mr. Scott's agreement to provide the venue for us and also to provide food and drink, we booked the band and have invited a hundred of our friends. We were made aware at the time that Mr. Scott was still trying to agree with North Arts District Council environmental health, the allowable sound level limit to condition for his premises license, but at the time it was in hand and shouldn't be a problem. As the date the event got closer, Mr. Scott suggested that we'd have to apply for a temporary event notice, but otherwise he would not, he would be at the risk of breaking his licensing conditions regarding noise. And he made it clear that without this, we wouldn't be able to go ahead with the events outside. We really wanted to have the event in the marquee as it is such an amazing place for bands to play and exactly what we wanted from my party party. So with Mr. Scott's assistance, we went ahead with a temporary event notice application. We were devastated to receive the counter notice as we desperately want this party to go ahead with our friends and our favorite band in that marketing garden. It's so much better than being inside. I ask you therefore to please carefully consider this and the statements from both my wife, Jonah, and Mr. Scott himself, and allow us to go ahead and enjoy the dirty, heartlanded, and my 60th birthday party. The first party I've ever hosted, even at my right, the old age. That's the end of Mr. Curtis's submission. I'll now go on to the submission by his wife Fiona. I will say the second half of this submission is kind of circumstantial stuff about other pubs. I don't think it's relevant, so I'm not going to state it if that's okay. That would be helpful because, yes, it's not relevant to this, to this series. We're already specifically looking at this application and this premises. Correct. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, Mrs. Curtis has said as follows, the point about the party. It's the 60th birthday party, the majority of the guests are over the age of 50. A very much family and very close friends party and outside the area would be restricted to just those invited. The younger people attending are relatives of mine, some bringing their children, and are all responsible parents. I have lived in Baller for 32 years. This is the first party I've had in the venue since moving to Baller. In particular, the orange tree is a venue due to the size and security of the garden. I sometimes go to the orange tree at weekends, and I'm very impressed by the control of the garden that we get to later in the evening. I've never witnessed any antisocial paper, so that's what she had said. In regards to the music, the event has been held on a Saturday, typically on a working day for most, and we have stipulated on the invites, that the closure of the party is 9.30pm to ensure people are out of the garden, and the music is stopped at this point. The music is intended to be in the market and not directly outside, which should usually join the neighbours. I don't think we need to say anything else because the rest I don't think is relevant. And now, over to me, I guess, this is my submission. Mr Curtis has already covered why this temporary event notice has been submitted, but I just wanted to add the detail of how we got here and the challenge I personally face. At a full license hearing in January 2021, some conditions were attached to the premises license to the orange tree regarding the use of the garden, and marquee, for regulated entertainment, specifically live and recorded music events. The relevant sections in these conditions are summarised as follows. Number one, the installed sound limiter in the marquee needs to be commissioned and agreed with North African District Council in Environmental Health, prior to any outside events taking place. And number two, the designated premises supervisor, myself, will door up and implement an entertainment management plan. The plan will set out what measures will need to be in place to ensure that entertainment will not cause public nuisance to residents in the immediate vicinity of the premises. I've been trying to get three-way agreement between ourselves, our neighbours and North African District Council for three years on what an acceptable sound level is, but despite writing to the neighbours, holding surveys, running test events and taking many readings at them, and also inviting North African District Council to attend the event to help us find this level, I've been able to make much progress. I even had Councillor Aleister Willoughby talking to those neighbours to get their views on weekend. He's only recently, with the arrival of a new Environmental Health Officer Mr Stone, who is present, that North African District Council has more become more responsive to this issue, which is welcomed. He's the first, for instance, to meet our request as part of the process to come and take readings at a recent Bullock Festival event, to country routes at Bullock Boots on the 5th of May this year, which incidentally was also covered by an opposed to temporary event notice. The result of Mr Stone's video will be discussed later in my submission. So as we stand here today, North African District Council of Environment Health and I have not been able to agree on what decibel level our events should not exceed, so we can then set the sound perimeter and light up other sound sources during performance, so that from the Environmental Health point of view, it is not too high to cause a potential disturbance nuisance to our neighbours, and from our point of view, that we can successfully hold a live music event with a full band without the level so low that it negatively impacts the performance of the band or the expense of the audience. There are two things that do not help us in this matter, and it's not as simple as it seems to get to a point in determining what this decibel level should actually be. The first is, in my opinion, there do not appear to be any clearly defined sound levels in any appropriate documented guidelines used by Environmental Health. Not just it was seen by North African District Council, but from what I have researched by any council, and it is not North African District Council's fault, because as I'm about to explain, this is a very complex issue. North African District Council, Environmental Health and others have been referring to two documents during this process. The first is the Code of Practice on Environmental Noise at Concerts, which was put together by the now defunct Noise Council in the 1990s. Whilst this document does contain advisory decibel limits, for instance, that music noise levels should not exceed 75 decibels average over a 15-minute period for 1-3 concert days per year, for urban stadium or arenas, or 65 decibels in rural venues, and for all venues, the 4-12 days in not exceeding the background noise level by more than 15 decibels. But also, it is stated on the fourth paragraph of the introduction to the code that this code is not designed to address the question of Environmental Noise, and how it applies for disco techs, clubs, and public houses. I reiterate, the Code of Practice clearly says it is not designed for use in this scenario. The second document supplied by North African District Council of Environmental Health is the good practice guide to the control of noise from clubs and clubs stated March 2003, and from the Institute of Acoustics. This document also does not contain any specific recommended decibel levels for us to work to. But it does contain a passage in the scope section that hopefully underlines why this is such a difficult task, it says. The original intention was to include objective noise criteria in this document that could have been used to access and control noise from all the main sources of noise that can be present at clubs and similar premises. However, it has not been possible to subject the new criteria that have been developed and proposed by the Working Party to a satisfactory validation process. And it goes on to say, until such criteria are developed, it is recommended that local authorities and others should devise and apply policies in regard to this guide and taking into account local circumstances and existing licensing and planning policies. So here we are. I have to submit an event management plan to be compliant with additions on my license, something I am extremely aware of the importance of, by the way. But without agreeing the level for the noise limit to be set up, I cannot complete it. Mr. Stone's view is that by using the limits described in the code of practice on environmental knowledge of concepts, that the noise level should be limited to a mere 58 decibels in our neighbours garden. It is my view that regardless of it being what I believe to make excessively strict on fair, it simply isn't practical for us to have a live performance with such a restriction, and I will now explain why. The challenge that a sound engineer faces when we host live music outside, either in the market or in the garden itself, is the nature of the instruments used themselves before any electrical amplification is used. Since the process to try and agree as the levels began, I have been diligently recording sound levels, tweaking the locations of our speakers and analysing the way our sound system works to try and find a balance between given the best musical experience, whilst having the most compliant setup. The sound engineer's biggest issue is managing the sound that emanates from the one instrument in a live band that you have little control over the drum kit. I have been a sound engineer mixing bands for only 15 years, and have lots of experience in these matters when it comes to small scale venues. Without wishing to state what you probably already know, when a sound engineer balances the set for a gig with a live band, they start by balancing the drum kit to the bass guitar. These provide the glue that binds the live band together, and when the engineer or then the engineer will bring in other instruments in the back line, usually a lead or rhythm guitar and sometimes an electronic keyboard. Once these elements are balanced correctly, the engineer will then bring in the front of house, microphones, lead, backing vocals, and any other mic to acoustic instruments such as wind or brass, to a level that marries them with the rest of the back line to complete the setup. So any starting point for sound is there for always the drum kit, and although it is possible to use sound limiting pads on the drum skins, is invariably very difficult to do anything more to reduce the sound generated by a drummer. I quote, a standard drum set ranges between 90 decibels and 130 decibels. This is incredibly loud compared to non amplified instruments like acoustic guitars and pianos. If you play an acoustic guitar as hard as possible, you may be able to get it up to 75 decibels, and a standard upright piano is only around 70 decibels at its loudest. With drums, the smaller drums in a kit can be as quiet as 80 decibels, while loud symbols such as the crash, maybe up to 130 decibels which strike it very hard. At the orange tree, we reduce the drum sound outdoors by placing the kit inside one of our booths in the market as opposed to having it out on the stage. This reduces noise radiating from the sides, back, and above the kit, and it also helps reduce those peak generated by the symbols. At the Country Roots Board, Country Roots Board of Boots event that I mentioned before, the Heartland Roots Band, I don't know why they made them like this, the Heartland Roots Band used a drum kit to on their sets from 6.15 to 7.30pm. Although Mr. Stein wasn't at the neighbors property during that time, we'd have his later readings to use as a reference. I mixed this particular set as low as I could to match the drums, with only the kick drum being miked up so that it could be relayed back through the monitor or foldback speakers. These are speakers that are facing musicians to help them amongst other things to perform in time. As is usually always the case, the band had bought their own bass and guitar amplifiers. It is very difficult to convince guitarists that house amplifiers to use house amplifiers for their guitars, as they almost always insistant that the sound and feel from their specific amplifiers critical to the overall sound of the performance. We do provide some small 25 watt and 35 watt orange amplifiers, which we can mike up and put through the PA to give better control of the levels. But again, guitarists seem only to be comfortable with their own amplifier being behind them on stage to play play. We do possess an electronic drum kit, which obviously can be set to very low levels if necessary, but our experience from the early days of music in the marquee is that drummers simply refuse to use it to the point that the band would just not play the gig. At all, if their drummer was forced to do so. We place the main front of house PA speakers to the front left and right of the marquee stage. Speakers must be in front of the band and especially focused for our PA system to avoid feedback from the vocal and other microphones. And we put two small slave speakers at the corners of the outer wall of the markings to convey those vocals further into the audience, which negates the need to have the vocals louder in the main stage PA speakers. When marching the sound levels during the preparation for the live performances, we use a point in the middle of the furthest distance from the stage that is still covered by the apex roof of the marquee. We use a hand held sound meter, this one, to take readings at 1.2 metres from the floor. From that position, I took readings during their performance, all of which show around but not over the 100 decibel mark. I also took a video of me walking, taking readings around sycamores, which is the back of the line stream and marquee, whilst the band were playing, giving me readings around 60 decibels outside numbers 38 and 39 are sycamores, where our most vocal complainers reside. Obviously, I was unable to measure the levels inside their gardens. Mr Stone was present outside the orange stream presumably in the neighbour's garden during the later performance from the Wild Wild West show, comprising of a singer with backing tracks and dances. This took place between 8 and 9pm. My readings during the show, when Mr Stone was also taking readings, were also at 100 decibels inside, it created an average of 69 decibels as reported on Mr Stone's device. My view is that an average level of 69 decibels for a performance, sorry Mr Stone's view, is that an average level of 69 decibels is too high, and this is where we'd have an issue. If I can put this into context, 75 decibels is the sound of a toilet flushing. 70 decibels is about the same noise level you would hear in a normal conversation with another person. I am currently talking at about 79 decibels now. 60 to 65 decibels is the sound of a general hubbub in a restaurant or office, and 55 decibels is the sound of a normal household fridge. I did as much as I could to keep the levels down to Max the drums, but that 100 decibels reading on my meter, equating to what I expect to be the 69 decibels reading on Mr Stone's equipment in the name of the garden, was about as low as I could go to give a reasonable sound from the band. Any less than the P and the guitars would have been just too quiet, and trying to achieve or give a 58 decibels limit level on Mr Stone's equipment will mean a low level of about below 80 decibels, but our measuring point, which with the drum kit, it would exceed every time. It is simply neither achievable nor practical. Another problem is that we can find a compromise here that is acceptable to all, and it is my belief that a level of no more than 70 decibels in neighbors garden which are created to 100 decibels in the marquee at our measuring point will allow the music and vocals to be sufficiently high enough, not only for sound engineering to marry the rest of the vocals and instruments to a drum kit, but for the sound levels inside the marquee to be loud enough to give an enjoyable experience from the audience. I believe it impossible to get the sound levels any lower when a live band with a drum kit is playing at any level of quality in the marquee without significant structural sound proofing work. This is something I simply cannot afford. I suggest that 70 decibels will sound in our neighbors garden, again, about the same noise as normal conversation between two people seems more than fair and reasonable. I would like to finish by asking you to please allow us to go ahead to this event so that we at the Orange Street can use it as a test case to help us find a compromise with North West District Council are sound limits. If we can find the noise level at our proposed limit of 70 decibels is not unreasonable for the neighbors. We could work with Mr Stone to get some real benchmark data inside the marquee as well as in the neighbors gardens at the same time to assist us in correctly setting the devices and levels to keep the sound generated in those limits. This exercise would help to solve more issues, or at least give us both something to work on when discussing with the neighbors, who at the end of the day are the ones we need to appease. I would therefore ask this committee that you allow this event to go ahead, you allow us to use a maximum level of 100 decibels at the measurement point inside the marquee so I can configure a noise limit appropriately and thoroughly test it in a real time live environment. I can then complete and just to meet my event managing plan, which I hope the proposed platform is in your packs today. We think this is a fair, reasonable proportionate and most importantly practical and achievable proposal that meets our desire to make Mr Curtis his birthday party, all he wanted to be, whilst being totally respectful of our neighbors and helping us to go forward to achieve compliance to the conditions that are on your own shoes premises license. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that submission. That's really appreciate that. So first of first of all, this does the responsible starting to have any points of clarification at this stage for the applicant Alan. Yes, please, Chair. Thank you. Mr scale, you mentioned a lot of stuff that a lot of it was to do with desk levels inside the marquee and what I measured. I've got the permanent acoustics, I've been measuring noise from events such as this for many years. And your figures didn't make much sense because you didn't give a time period over which you were measuring can you just explain to what the time period was please. The time period would have been between every 10 or 15 minutes, I took them all the way through the day. So, during the, when the band were playing the whatever their name was, it would have been about every 15 minutes. And they say it came, it was generally between 95 and 100 disables at that point. Sorry, I'll be more sorry, I'll be more clear on question. Was it an an alley queue, was it an instantaneous size level. It's instantaneous. So we use this device, and we stand and we look at it, and then we record what it is on average. So that's not an accepted way of measuring noise, we normally imagine noise over period of time. So, for example, my measurements. That's not that's a, this is not a point of clarification you can certainly make that point Alan when you come to your presentation I think I think if you've got this is really a question rather than a statement of what is or isn't the case so if you've got a further question, please, please ask it. I was asking the question of publication on the noise levels, because I think they're misleading. I don't think that's a very much because I'll wait. That's a that's a statement, that's not a question for, but if you could, if you could try and ask a question I'll happily allow it but but you need to ask this question not as a, not as a statement. I guess I'll wait to do my institution address all my points. Yeah, cool. Right. Right. Members. Any questions from their phone? Look around. Councillor Johnson, any questions from you. You're mute at the moment, Tim. To come up mute. Sorry press the wrong button apologies. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Yes. Rob, thanks for that. It was very detailed. Very interesting actually. Just one question. I'll take the point about the electronic drum kit. Have you specifically asked this for this event for the group to use the electronic drum kit? Not for this event now. Okay. Thank you. That's right. They all say we like to bring our own drum kit and my experiences, it's just not worth arguing with them. Yeah, but you have a point taken, but you haven't asked yet. No. Okay, thanks. Thank you. Councillor Patmore, Stephen, any questions from. No question. Okay. Thank you. And Councillors, Keith, any questions from. Yeah, thanks Ian. Hi guys. So, so when the band books in, do you explain to them that you may have a problem with. The drum kit. Yeah, whenever we do music outside, we always explain that we have to be cognizant of the effect has on the neighbours. I explained that we are working with North us to shoot Council on those limits. And I also explained that we have a HAPS limit of 100 dB inside. And should they at any point go over that, we will turn it off. We won't just warn them. And we haven't had an issue yet with any band. They've all been, they've all been quite, they're quite cognizant of the fact that we are trying to do it properly here. So, that's what they all get briefed beforehand. And we also tell them that if it's going to be too loud, they won't be able to play. And how often do you do live music outside? Yeah. So, we have, we have a restriction on our license, which I didn't bring up today, but I'm happy to talk about, talk, talk if you like. We're allowed to do six events a year. And so, there's a bit of confusion about what an event actually is, whether it's 96 hours or it's one day, but that's something we resolve as part of this process going forward. But last year, for instance, I think we had, I think we had four days of events, so not real. And we're proposing, again, that we've actually got a list in our event plan of all the events that we'll be holding in the year to distribute to the neighbours, and to the environment of health as well. And it will be no more than six cents. Sure. Okay. Thank you. And then just, just for a second, please ask one of the questions just to understand the number of events you've had. And what, what complaints from directly, if you had from, from neighbours in, in terms of any recent events that you've held like, like the ones that you, you mentioned in your, your submission. We've only had more event this year, and that was, no, we have two contributes, but we hadn't done any complaints. You know, the neighbours know to ring us up. We asked them to ring us up. If they ring us up, we follow the process, which is we have a log of the details. If they give us their details, where we'll knock them. But we haven't had any. What the process is, if they ring up, obviously apart from logging everything, is to, is to try and investigate why it's so loud and sort it out, quite frankly. But as I say, we haven't had any complaints. What does tend to happen with two of our, two of our neighbours? And I should say a majority of those are quite happy is they will, they will log directly with the council. Thank you. I haven't got any further questions. Yeah. Can I, can I ask one more? Sorry. Yeah, by all means, by all means, Councillor JOHNSTON. Rob, I'm sorry if it sounds like a deaf question, but I'll take it. The kit isn't mic'd up then generally, because the outside concerts I've been to at this sort of level, you would have, you know, maybe a boom mic over the top or on the bass drum. Are you talking about purely like an acoustic sound drum good? Yeah. The only, the only bit we tend to mic up will be the kick drum, the bass drum, the big one. And the reason we do that is it musicians tend to like that being put through the fold back speakers, which goes back at them, not into the audience, so that they can keep the rhythm going. The rest of it, if you're in a big concert, obviously, you'd mic them up because they wouldn't be loud enough. But for us, they are plenty loud enough. And are you confident you can regulate that term? I mean, again, sorry, it's deaf question. I know you can turn it down, but is that not a possibility to have that drum bass mic down sufficiently? Well, it's not loud. As I say, the only reason it's mic'd up is it gets folded back into the, into the face of the performance. So that noise doesn't go forward into the audience. So, and it doesn't need to be loud. It just to be enough so they can hear it. So it's not loud. That's not the issue. It's the actual issue from, from the toms and from the, you know, from the snare and the cymbals. That's where all the noise tends to come from. And the cymbals tend to get soaked up quite well in that booth. It's just the, it's the toms and the snare drums that, that's all the racket, to be honest. In a beautiful way. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Thanks, Jim. Thank you. Thank you for that. I think it's on that basis. Thanks for that. And on those, and those answers you, you've provided, make a rub. Let's then move over to Alan to present your submission to application. Obviously we've seen the objection, but Alan, over to you. Thank you, chair. Yeah. Yeah, as I had to do a quick play see some of the things while Rob said that the premises license for the orange tree was reviewed in 2021. By a member of the public complainant, who was concerned about and launched from previous events. That was before my time. But as a result of that committee decided to place a number of conditions, which Rob's mentioned on the premises license, including an environmental management plan. And that's one which we have to agree, those levels. So in pursuit of that, when I arrived at the council, a meeting was held in the 2023. With a view to me offering my assistance in setting the levels with the premises. And I followed this up in an email in January of 2024, reiterating that offer of assistance, but it was never taken up now. And the event was held this year on the 5th of May under the temporary event notice, which wasn't objected to by by me. However, what I did do was did some measurements to try and stop process of agreeing those levels. And those levels in situations like this are concerts are dealt with. I remember my local authorities and other events like festivals and such like the Dakota practice on the most controlled at concerts. Which Rob's going to be alluded to. And in there, it's grades events based on the number of event days per year, and gives a level for them. For example, one to three days is a less stringent target than more than three days. Rob's alluded to the license that he wanted six events. That means it goes to the third level, which is 15 dB above the background level. I measured the background level in one of the complements. Gardens is 43, which means the level that I've suggested was 58. Clearly, when I measured this event at the complainant's house in accordance with that guidance, it was 69, which means it's 10 or 11 dB above where we need to be in terms of that guidance. Which I've tried to explain to Rob and I think he gets it, but quite clearly, if we're having a life band in that garden, we're going to be struggling to meet him. Certainly with the drum kit. Now, the office is still open to greet these nose limits. However, a license and a put this in an email on 22 May to Mr. Scalehill setting out what we need to see in terms of discharging these conditions. But shortly after that email, the next day, in fact, 10 application list and application was received. And because we've got no further in terms of agreeing the nose limits, I raised an objection. I raised an objection on that I can't be confident that the license and objective prevention of public nuisance is going to be upheld in this instance. To me, it feels like the 10 application routes is being used to circumvent the green of these conditions, such that the applicant can have not the applicant, sorry, DPS can have events without sticking to any noise limits that we've agreed. Just like to raise a couple of points that were raised at last healing, one of which was by Mr. Scalehill self which he said, I've written it down from the from the trend I've transcripted this from the meeting he said that he knows fully, he knew pretty early doors. They're having a full band playing the drums, and so on was just not going to be acceptable. I totally agree with that. I don't think this location is suitable for such events with I'm happy to try and assess that in the future but that's my gut feeling at the moment. The hat, the putt garden, the marquee is surrounded on at least two or three sides by houses it's in the middle of a residential area. The closest of which is two complaints that I have, who I've spoken to this year are concerned about the noise and wish to pursue some kind of controls on the event which is what we've been trying to do. So that's it really for me. The point I'm trying to get to is to agree controls on the premises which at the moment we haven't done. So these conditions need to address me for any further events I held at the premises in my opinion. We needed this by some kind of propagation test, not a live event so we need to perhaps play some music in a time when there's not people waiting to hear music so that's quite intrusive in terms of an event. And we need to try and ensure that the prevention of public nuisance, the license and get to the prevention of a new since that upheld by getting to the bottom of this agreement to the levels. So I'm happy to answer any questions of clarification. Thank you. Thank you for that. Right. Over really obviously to to make a rub if you've got any specific points of clarification from Mr Stein. Yeah, I have, I have a couple. I mean the first one is, I did talk about it in my submission, the document he's referring to states it's specifically not to be used for public houses why, why does he think that therefore the levels in that document. This should be constant of, especially bearing in mind the second document that I mentioned, where it talks about the fact that they couldn't agree detailed decibel levels in their either because of the complexity of this issue. Alan. Yeah. Well, that's a point one point four in that document Rob's referring to the statement which says this code is not designed to invest the question of environmental noise arising from disconnects pubs and public houses. Yes, that the key word in there is environmental so the document that Rob is talking about is the control of noise and pubs guidance. And that refers to the noise the environmental noise that it doesn't deal with, which is the main sources in that document are music internal music singing public address children's play areas beer gardens people in general car parks and access roads deliveries collections to us handling. That's environmental noise, not knows it concerts in this document well the good the control of noise from pubs and clubs guide at point 2.6. Actually says this guy that should not be used to determine or enforce noise standards for occasional music events as a type covered by the code of practice and environmental music concerts. I go back to that previous document the one that I think is appropriate and we use all the time for defense of this nature. I go back to that document. That point, in that there's a glossary in that in that some definition sorry up section two, one of which is it disguised me music events. The music event is described as a constant or similar event that live or recording music is performed by a solo or group of artists before an audience. And that's really a life band in a garden is exactly what it's for. And even in a public house and that's the document that Robert referring to point them in that direction. So my main 10. That's the right document to use. And then we'll make just a statement here that obviously it would be fair to say that the and this is for the applicant and obviously for the year and now the panel here I've not seen any of these documents you've not cited them in. No one has actually provided this information from from so that may seem quite difficult and this is, this feels a bit like. I think she's soon I can keep a storm in throwing in throwing numbers and paragraphs around which which is quite hard for us to, to be able to determine because we've not seen any of this. I just I'll leave that on the table for the moment, but I will maybe come back to that, but I'll allow me can rob just to come if they've got any further further further questions. We have two more points my first point, you did mention, I guess before your call for about about how we measure these devices I use this thing. One of the things I'm looking forward to as we take this forward, I hope, is that for you to use your expertise and your equipment to help us with this with this with this determination of making sure that what we are recording is correct because without data at the beginning of this process, we're not going to get anything decent at the end of it. So I would like to, I guess it's a question is, is, would it be a pertinent for you to be able to come to this event and use that equipment just for the process of getting some real proper data for us to use in determining what the levels actually are going forward. That's me. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Firstly, Rob, you haven't got a license for this event yet. I'm given the situation we're in here. Yes, of course, Rob. That's why I said in November last year. That's what I said in January this year. And yet we here we are two days before post event. No further than the line. I've offered my assistance and yet you haven't tough you haven't taken it. I have to come out on off my own back to try and progress this matter in terms of the getting setting the levels. I do my monitoring at the compliance house. I received no input from you. I've seen no contact from you in relation to this. I got nothing to me in January. That's what's been quite frustrating. But yeah, of course, I welcome opportunity. But I don't think you should do it at live events. I think we should do it as a propagation test. OK, I don't think it's worth getting one more question. Do I get to respond to that? No, you can respond to that because you'll have an opportunity at the at the end to actually respond to that. You will absolutely. This is really just if you've got any further questions for Alan. Anything further you want to ask this state, but you absolutely can come back later on in your summary of. That's fine. Lovely. Thank you. That's great. Thank you. Right. I'll go round the round of the the council room again. Tim, any any questions for you? I don't know if it's appropriate at this point, but the only question I've got is if this isn't granted, are you able to hold it inside? I'm not familiar with where you're sitting, but legally hold it inside. Although I appreciate what Rob said. I sort of mixed said at the start. That's probably not a question for at this stage, but we can pick that. That's probably not. I will say can I say something like that? I did. We got that as a solution to this problem that just hold this event inside and barbecue outside have the music inside and people can go in and out as they please. That was a solution that we offered, but that's sort of what I was getting at, but yeah. Okay, I can, I can answer that. This is just for this is just for councils to ask to ask them, but I'm more than happy for you to respond to that at the end. You could just love that thought for the moment and we will make sure we let you have that opportunity to respond to those points. I will not forget that. Tim, any further questions for Alan at this stage? No, thank you. No, Steven, anything? No, Councillor Johnson asked the question I was going to ask. I'm good. Thank you. And then, and then, then, Keith. Can I just confirm that we were talking about live music until 9pm. Yes, that's correct. All right, thank you. And so, I don't want to, and this might be an unfair question to, to, but I mean, if you're able to, to answer, you know, be really, really appreciated. When we talk about 58 decibels and 69 decibels, as you mentioned it in there. If, if I were, if I was standing in my garden now, or if I was sitting, listening to that music from coming from next door. Well, how, how much louder is, is 11 decibels? What would, what would you, what would you feel? I know this is a feeling rather than a scientific measurement, which is why it's unfair to, to ask you anyway, but I suppose I just really want, wanted to understand how different it would feel those, those 11 decibels between the 58 and the 69 and so on. There's two ways to explain it really, I guess, 10 dB difference is equivalent to double the sound power. That's a scientific answer, I guess. Yeah, in, in watts, double the sound power. In terms of noise levels, it's a significant increase. For example, if you've had a stereo, one meter in front of you playing music at 50 decibels, where you measured it where you were hearing it, and then you place it in exactly the same stereo next to it and played that one at 50 decibels. So you'd have two noise sources of equal volume would increase the receiver volume by 3 dB. So it's significant, so it's, it's, it's, it's a logarithmic thing. It's, it's a significant increase in those levels. I'm not saying that 69, well, it depends on the number of vern days he has per year. And I didn't want to get bogged down in the, in the guidance because I know you haven't seen that. And I don't think it's, I think it's a question of the levels here. It's a question of, in my opinion, there's conditions outstanding on the, the conditions were placed on the premises license. As a result of a hearing called by a, for my review called by a resident of the area who was bothered by noise. Conditions are placed on that premises license with a view to controlling the noise. And yeah, we're in a position here where by then conditions are going to be circumvented. But no controls are going to be applied again to another event. That's the crux of the problem here. We need the controls to be in place. Everyone knows where they stand, both the applicant, not the applicant, so both the DPS, Rob's Cahill, the residents and ourselves so that they can tailor their events to their premises and that they can have events without fear of us coming and taking regulatory action against them for whatever reason. And that's so that we can allow them to get a carry on the businesses as they wish and to make money and entertain their guests and customers. Clearly, if we keep putting tenants in place to circumvent the conditions that are there to control the premises, then we're never going to get to the bottom of the problem. We're going to keep going and going and going. We need to solve the problem, the ultimate problem, which is we need to agree the levels. I'm going to do that today, like you pointed out. But that's something that me and Bob are going to have to work on and agree. Having said that, it doesn't stop our regulatory responsibilities. Either we still have a duty to investigate or complain. So I've got two current ones. And I have a duty to investigate them. No, that's fine. Thank you. That's that's how fun. Okay. Well, I think obviously we've heard from from from from everyone, which I think probably moves us towards the closing statements in terms of this part. And really over to the licensing officer for any final submissions or information they wish to make to the committee. And I think Mel over to over to you. Okay. Thank you, Chair. Just to say thank you for everybody for contributing to this hearing. And in summary, it was a temporary event notice for a birthday party. This Saturday 12 to the application was 12 o'clock till 10 o'clock at night with a DJ and band set to end at nine with barbecue invited guests only. Mr Scott who presented on behalf of Mr. and Mrs Curtis gave no view of the reasons for the application and stated that Mr Curtis was also aware of the discussions already with the environmental health officer regarding the license that's in situ. The Mr Scott, Scott, Scott, who presented his the backgrounds over the previous hearings back to 2021 and stated that they're working on agreement to resolve the issues with the officers discussions are still ongoing. And that is definitely over the decibel levels. He said that the engineers are facing challenges. It all depends on the instruments drum kits are placed in boost to help reduce the noise and has requested that they use this event as a real time example. Then Mr Stone gave the background of the instance recorded and the status of his investigations and and still awaiting a closure on that, just like to take a point that we do have some information in the sense of examples. I have things like a sorry I'm just going to try and refer to some some notes here. So, for example, a jet taken off or outboard motors power or mower motorcycles, etc. They could be up to eight times as out as 70 decibels which is could call serious damage, especially if it's up to flight a hours exposure. So there are noise indicators available on the Internet for reference to. I would say there is a right for appeal against any decision made by the subcommittee. From this hearing today, any appeals must be made to the magistrates courts, for which stages the area within 21 days and no appeal can be brought late and five working days prior to the day of the planned event. And the appeal has to stay at the grounds of the decision being appealed and accompanied by the appropriate court fee must be lodged with the clerk to the magistrates. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Then really offer a move to any final submission from the responsible authority and Alan is there anything further you want to add at this stage. Is this something up with the thing that wants to add. Yeah, yeah, yeah, something up. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll read it again then I guess. I object. The conditions placed on a premises license at the hearing in 2021 were in attempt to place some controls on the use of the external area. If you use events. This control was circumvented by the temporary, no to this process, whilst one time was granted earlier this year, I object to this one to ensure that spilt of the license conditions, and therefore the license objectives are upheld. The prevention of public nuisance. Thank you. Thank you, Alan. And then, and then over to the, the applicants for any final submissions they wish to make a make a rub. Thank you. Thank you, Mr chair. A couple of things. I've said quite clearly that if we're going to have live music outside the drum kit, drum kit is going to be loud. So quite clearly, I think again, if we are to follow the levels that have been set by Mr stone, we're not going to be able to have a drum kit. That's a good point. Because those kind of levels are quite draconian. I would like to say, I'd also like to say that I appreciate that we have a marquee outside. This is generally as a result of COVID, when the government asked us to build outside structures to stop people coming inside, you know, sort of things. It's quite an expensive. I'm still paying for it. But other pubs in the town now have been similar sort of structures outside and regularly use them for live music. And I've been to some of these events and they're certainly louder than we have at the Irish tree. But if Mr stone is insistent that that sort of level is necessary, we have to stick to it. And that level then gets transcribed to other pubs. I don't think we can. I really don't think we want to get into what may happen in other places. But yeah, the point is, obviously, we can't have live music outside. Moving on to, can we have it inside? Well, of course we can. We have a different set of restrictions inside that we've proven over the past 12 years that we're very compliant to. Problem is, as I alluded to you have people opening doors going in and out. It just defeats the object. I have a allowance on my license to hold an event inside with the doors open in the room where the band will be, which completely defeats the object. We might as well put it in the market, because we can do that with a loud band louder than it would be outside. It's not about whether it should come inside, because also 60 people is the capacity inside of the van. It's about, can we please do this outside and use it as an opportunity to make sure our measurements are correct and use that to take it forward. Alan mentioned circumventing the licensing process. I would advise verbally, by an orthostrictor council licensing officer to put temporary event notices in, whilst this was being sorted out. I had hoped that that we would have sorted out before then I did send a copy to licensing and to Alan of these proposals back on Monday. I haven't heard back at all. Finally, I just wanted to say that, you know, I believe we have to be compliant. It's really important to me. I've been striving to be compliant since I took over this pub in 2011 2010. What's important, I believe, is what the neighbours think about this and they don't seem to have been involved, even though I have tried to involve them at the time. And my question or my statement, if you like, is look, if the neighbours are happy with a 70 dB limit in their garden, however we define what that limit is, surely we don't have a problem here. If the neighbours are happy, that happens no more than six weekends a year, or less if necessary, which we could determine, I guess, another hearing. Then again, surely we're okay. Because what I get from talking to most of the neighbours, there are two that don't talk to me, and these are probably the ones that are usually making the noise. The rest of the neighbours are quite happy. In fact, one neighbour run me up and said the music is beautiful today. Please do more of it. So we are trying to be compliant. We have an opportunity here to go forward and get that compliant without looking back and maybe argue about what has or hasn't happened in the past three years. So I'd like us to take the opportunity to let Mr Curtis have his party, let the dirty 100 pay outside, monitor it, record it as much as we can. In partnership with North wipe district council environment health, if we can. And then use it to go forward and finally put this to bed. Thank you. Sorry, I did have one more point, I'm really sorry to bed. I was talking at 73.6 decibels then. That's why I hear it here. So that's the level you would hear in a garden that's sent it over or 69, it's not now. Yeah, I'm not sure. Yes, I'm not sure quite. That's completely relevant by understand what you have to pull your bank in. But yeah. Can I just, before I bring a legal advisor in, can I just, can I just check with the licensing team just obviously, obviously the African made a statement there just I just wanted to confirm that. Could confirm that's correct that that the advice was that was the, the, the this issue was being or still being resolved the advice was given to the applicant to, to, to put a 10 application in is that, is that, is that correct. Is that for what the applicant has said was on the basis that while this, the issue of the sound limit and so has been resolved that, that they would need to put in this temporary event application. Chair, that was not advised by myself there are other, there are other licensing officers that have been involved in communications who are not present here. But from myself, I know I didn't advise that and I don't think my colleague also online did. I don't know, Jasmine, are you able to comment on that advice was not given by me. No, as Mel stated, we do have another license and officer, but no, it would kind of defeat the object of a condition, if that were to be our advice. Okay, the advice was given verbally. It's not on record, I can attest to it in court. Okay, we can take that on, take that on board. Thank you. Right, which then moose us to the advisors, so Mel, could I can invite you to summarize any legal issues that have been raised at the, the hearing. I think myself, I meet ultimately chair and this application concerns a temporary event notice, and we are particularly concerned about a slightly narrow element of the licensing objectives. This is a particular focus in this case on the public nuisance limb of the for licensing objectives, which has been put forward by Mr Stone in response to the 10 application. Of course, the panel is not limited to consideration of only that limb, there are four limbs on the license objectives that were previously set out, and any data here relevant should be considered and form the backbone of any decision. In considering, obviously the sound levels, the panel are being asked to turn in sound levels and whether the sound guidance issued back in 1990, which is a guide, and therefore you're not, you know, fixed to that guide, but it's one that consideration should be taking account of, and the panels also required to consider local conditions so it's very important to put some legal context into that and in consideration, probably, I would save the passage of time is also appropriate, given that the guidance hasn't been updated in excess of 30 years. Now, it appears that the applicant has put forward a condition of potentially 70 decibels measured as I've made this garden. Of course, the panel can consider whether the imposition of in conditions would help to promote the licensing objectives, and if that is the case the panel is entitled to impose whatever conditions. Please are not inconsistent with the licensing activities. The panel does not need the consent of the applicant for the conditions. They may put forward whichever conditions they consider a program, and it will be a matter for them to be met or the applicant may simply decide not to go ahead with the event. Given that the thrust turns on the evidence, and a consideration of sound levels, particularly important on a little bit on the evidential basis that the panel, as you've noted have not been provided evidence by over the parties. There's been extensive reference to data, but ultimately, that's not been put forward to you. But the panel is also reminded that the licensing framework is permissive and therefore, the starting point is that activities are allowable unless the license objectives would not be promoted by allowing something to go on. And so, finally, I asked the panel to have consideration to power up 9.44 of the National Guidance, which is that the authority shame to consider the potential burden that any condition would impose on the premises license holder, such as the financial burden due to restrictions and license for activities, as well as the potential benefit in terms of the relation of the licensing objectives. And obviously, consideration of whether or not the license premises are responsible or irresponsible license premises may be relevant. And you've heard some information about the number of events under restriction, but there is generally in terms of these types of events, six times a year, as well as what the upper 10% about the age and the nature of the attendees that will be attending this again. Thank you. That's helpful. Any members, any questions for the legal advisor at this stage. Tim, Stephen key. No, no, it doesn't look. No, I've got no questions at the stage for the legal advisor. So, if, if then, I'd like to invite the committee member scrutiny officer to explain the next part of the process. The subcommittee will now be retiring to make a decision in private public viewing the meeting are welcome to wait and listen to the decision. However, this might take some time. Once the subcommittee has made its decision, this will be announced via the live stream. If members believe that the decision will take too long to avoid parties waiting, they may decide not to announce the decision live today. If this is the case and announcement will be made to this effect by the subcommittee, and the meeting will be closed. The decision would then be announcing writing within five working days of this meeting members and officers will shortly be receiving an invitation to a breakout room. The applicants may stay or leave if they wish. The hold notice will be displayed in the zoom call and the live stream will continue. Please note that as the live stream is ongoing, anything said during this time will be recorded. 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Yes, we can. Lovely. Okay. Mel, can you still hear us? Yes, I can. Yep. I'll hand back over to either Susan or Councillor Albert. Probably me. Yes, Susan. That's fine. Over to you. Good. Thank you. Sorry. Can I just make sure Alan Stone's here as well? Sorry. Oh, yes, yes. Yes, thank you very much. Sorry, Alan. Hello, Alan. Hi. Right. Okay. So thanks, everyone. And thanks for your patience. So, well, I'm gonna take on the readout and decision notice. But also, there's also some additional advice in the, which is not formally part of the decision that I also want to, to read out at the end. And so decision notice when you'll get a written, a formal written copy of the, of the, of the decision. Date of here in 6th of June, members of panel, Councillor Keith Hoskins in Albert chair, Tim Johnson, reserve member, Stephen Patmore, applicant's name, Michael Curtis, purposes dress the orange tree, Norton Road Bulldog, including the garden and marquee area of the orange tree public house. Date of application 23 May. This is an application for a standard temporary event notice under section 100 of the licensing act, 2003. The subcommittee has read the material presented to it and has listened to all the evidence and submissions. The subcommittee has considered the national guidance December 23 and the statement of licensing policy and has come to the following decision that the application is granted. The subcommittee recognizes that the conditions to attend can only be imposed. And the circumstances will, the following conditions are satisfied. The relevant person's objected to the 10. The injection does not be withdrawn. There's a premises license or a club premises certificate in relation to at least part of the premises in respects to which the 10 is given. The subcommittee considers it appropriate for the promotion. The licensing objectives to impose one or more conditions. And the conditions will not be consistent with the carrying out of the license pool activities under the 10. Subcommittee considers that on the immiscible evidence received and represented representation made no conditions are appropriate for the promotion of the licensing objectives. Conditions are proposed by the responsible authorities. None condition proposed by the applicant is none. The effect of failure to comply. Effect of failure to comply within the conditions attached to the 10 and obviously you see that in some some some detail. I won't read out all of all of that. Statutory guidance considerations. Again, obviously subcommittee has taken into account the revised guidance issued under section 182 of the licensing act. There's a number of paragraphs there. You can see that in the written statement. Some committee has taken into account the North Hertford district council's statement of licensing policy in reaching its decision. Again, there's a number of key paragraphs that we've listed there. Rational for decision. The subcommittee considers that the application for the 10 should be permitted to the extent outlined above for the following reasons. The time for the event proposed appears proportionate. The fact that it is a private event gives confidence that the likelihood of public nuisance and crime and disorder is low. And the existing condition of six events a year on the premises license means that as a fair balance between the role of pubs in the local community and promoting the licensing objectives. This is only the second event in the last six months. The 10 should come into effect on the 8th of June. It will end on the 8th of June. The applicant may appeal if the decision of subcommittee is to give a counter notice. The peerless gets the counter notice and is to a magistrate's court. And again, obviously you can read the detail of that. The relevant person may also appear in the circumstances where the subcommittee decides not to give a counter notice. However, no appeal may be bought later than five working days before the day on which the event specified in the 10 begins. And clearly obviously colleagues will know that's a issue. But obviously the application is granted for the reasons I have stated. Now, I do want to also then to just to come to the additional advice here. And I obviously thank all the both. Obviously, Alan Stone and the applicants for their attendance today is appreciated. And we know that everyone is doing a difficult job here. And obviously it's really important for us to listen to all the evidence that you should bring. Now the advice is separate. But this is the advice. We do think that it will be helpful if Mr. Stone can attend the event at the weekend to gather evidence that the authority can use for context and for future applications as the guidance to sound levels is very dated. And we believe that that evidence will be helpful in looking at any future applications. If an objection is put with supporting evidence by Mr. Stone or any relevant objection that the orange tree is using the attendance procedure to circumvent the conditions on their premises license, this may give grounds for any future panel to determine that they are not a responsible premises license holder and therefore granting the application may not promote the licensing objective. It's clear obviously here that we do want to see that outstanding issue resolved. And we don't believe actually that producing further tens is the right way forward. That's why it's really important to get this resolved as soon as possible. In addition though, the panel expects parties to file supporting evidence. There is limited weight that can be given to all representations and it's particularly important that anyone objecting files evidence given the starting point of the licensing framework is that the licensing is a permissive regime. Well, I think that's why the evidence gathering at the weekend here is I think really, really, really critical. But as I say, we do think it's important that we want to get this long outstanding issue resolved both in terms of the for the applicant, the licensee and obviously for the neighbours in the area. It's important that we don't resolve this and get this people working together in a way that benefits the whole community. That's the end of the advice. I'd like to thank everyone for their attendance today. I obviously wish. I hope the event goes well at the weekend. I think obviously Mr Stone for his participation and obviously providing all the information and technical advice to us today. And I do hope obviously we can look for ways that we can resolve the long outstanding issue. But I think everyone's attendance committee services for their support and obviously our legal and licensing teams for their hard work. And I thank you everyone and wish everyone a really good afternoon. The sun is just about shining. So please enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you. And thanks for attending the meeting today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye then. Thank you very much. Bye then.