Transcript

[ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ] [ Silence ]

Right, good evening everybody and welcome to the Cheltenham Borough Council Licensing Committee being held on Tuesday the 18th of June, 2024. Further to the annual and selection council, the committee will need to vote on the chair and vice chair of the miscellaneous subcommittee for the current municipal year. The proposal will be Councillor Dr David Willingham as chair and Councillor Andrew Boyce as vice chair. Please can I ask for a vote on that proposal? Okay, thank you, it's carried. As both the chair and vice chair have sent their apologies to today's meeting, I would like to propose that Councillor Simon Wheeler is the chair for this evening's meeting. Please can I have a show of hands and support? Thank you. And on that basis, I should hand over to Councillor Wheeler. [ Silence ] Yes, right. Yeah, this meeting is being streamed live by Cheltenham Borough Council's YouTube channel and the recordings of the meeting will be held for four years. If there are any breaks in transmission to the YouTube stream, the meeting will be adjourned for a short period until the issues are resolved. To the public, if you're here to make representation to the meeting, you are considered to be consenting to the use of sound and video recording for broadcast and training purposes. Please be aware that CCTV and audio recording is now operating in the public gallery and the recordings will be held for five months, but we have no one up there, so that's not a problem. Also, there are no fire alarm tests expected today, so if the alarm does sound, you should immediately make your way out through the nearest exits, which are there and here. Right. Agenda item one. Apologies, as previously said, I have both Councillor Dr. David Willingham and Councillor Angie Boyce. They're, other than that, we're all here, so are there any declarations of interest? Nope. Right, none have been received, other than that. Right, the first application has been withdrawn, so we are on agenda item four, which is application for street traders' consent. Because this is a regulatory item, members must be present and have heard the proceedings in their entirety, to vote on the item. We will ensure that the applicant and the applicant's representative, if they have one, are present in the meeting. I will ask the licensing officer to introduce the report. Members will then get the opportunity to ask licensing officer questions. The applicant or their representative will then have the opportunity to ask licensing officer questions. Any objectors will be given the opportunity to speak then. We ask you to limit your time to 10 minutes. The applicant or their representative will be given the opportunity to present their application or make their case. We would expect to try to limit their speech to 10 minutes. Members will then be able to ask questions of the applicant. Then, members will debate the matter. The applicant will have the opportunity to give their final right of reply. I will then read the resolution and we will then go to the vote. If that's all clear, I'll hand over to the planning officer. I wonder, could I just check? I understand there was somebody coming from the bid. Are they here? You are from the bid. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I didn't recognize you. I just wondered if we needed to wait a few minutes for them to come. Thank you. Thank you. We have received an application for a street trading consent to sell hot food and hot and cold drinks from a kebab van measuring 2.1 metres by 3.6 metres. He has applied for daily consent from 6 p.m. to 4 a.m. And an image of the trading unit is shown in appendix 2. The current street trading policy was adopted by the council on the 11th of February 2020 and a copy of their policy is attached as appendix 3. Through the street trading scheme, the authority aims to control the number of street traders and the location of street traders and also aims to prevent unnecessary obstruction of the highway by street trading activities. The authority aims to control the number of street traders and the location of street traders and also aims to prevent unnecessary obstruction of the highway by street trading activities. The authority aims to control the number of street traders and the location of street traders and also aims to prevent unnecessary obstruction of the highway by street trading activities. The authority aims to control the number of street traders and the location of street traders and also aims to prevent unnecessary obstruction of the highway by street trading activities. Through consultation, we have received a number of objections against the application, which are attached as appendix 4. This includes objections from the Churchill Business Improvement District, Environmental Protection and 6 additional local businesses. The committee must determine the application with a view to promoting the council's adopted policy and members should not arbitrarily deviate from the council's policy. The policy takes into account a number of factors when determining the permitted trading types. These are outlined in the permitted locations and members should take these into account when determining the application. Whilst the policy creates a presumption against the grant of application, if the application does not comply with policy, this position should not fetter the committee's discretion to take into account the individual merits of the application. In any circumstances, that may warrant a deviation from the policy. Members must note that this location is outside of a permitted zone for street trading. Therefore, the default position is that this application should be refused as it does not comply with policy in that respect. For clarification, if an application is to be cited in such a designated zone, there is a presumption for grant unless other concerns exist. In addition, and notwithstanding the street trading policy, does not make a great deal of reference to the issues of crime and disorder. It would not be in the public interest to ignore such issues if they arise. The policy, although listing assessment criteria, could not be expected to cover all eventualities and all concerns which may arise. Many applications for street trading relate only to daytime hours and are less likely to raise concerns in respect of crime and disorder. But as can be seen from comments received, this application has given rise to such concerns from respondents. Although the licensing authority has not received an objection from the police, it must be noted that such an operation would be cited very close to the taxi rank, which operates throughout the night and therefore is somewhat of a hot spot in its own right, due to the location of being a hub for people to travel home after a night working in the town or enjoying the nighttime economy. It is considered that the location of a takeaway unit during the evening and into the small hours of the following day would be likely to exacerbate any potential issues that exist already and/or create more likelihood of issues arising. It should also be noted that the size of the vehicle and the likely weight of it, the highways department again have not responded, but it is known that there have been concerns about vehicles being parked on this paved area in the past. An update will be sought from members in respect at this point. Further considerations which do not seem to have been raised with members, which members should be aware of, include the following. The possible implications of this trader being on site during race meetings at Cheltenham Racecourse, when the town centre has a higher footfall in the evenings, particularly during the March meeting. As well as the fact that a number of events, markets and festivals use that space during weekends or other times throughout the year. In many instances, these existing attractions would have a hot food offer and clearly not wish to see this trader in operation during those events. Members should also consider, if they are reminded to refuse an application, whether the attachment of conditions could mitigate any concerns to a satisfactory extent. If conditions are to be attached, they should be proportionate, appropriate and enforceable. Members are reminded that clear and cogent reasons should be given for decisions made by committee, particularly whether decision is contrary to adopted policy and/or is in conflict with representations made to the authority. Mr Jarmaz has been advised prior to submitting his application in full that the chosen location would be likely to draw objections and that the location is used for emergency vehicle access, so likely to be unsuitable. That's the report. Thank you. Do I have any questions from members? You said something about an update from highways. Did you get an update from highways? No, nothing from highways has come back yet. You said there was a potential problem over emergency vehicle access, is that an absolute or is that just possible? Yes. It's quite common through the night that that area of the pedestrianised part of the promenade is used for police access and also potential concerns for any ambulance service which may need to access other parts of the town using that as a sort of a throughfare. Anyone else? I've got a couple of questions. Firstly, do you have any other vehicles in a similar - oh sorry, no, this is to the officers, beg your pardon, no, I had... Yes. Lady from Cheltenham Bid, would you like to make your representation please? Thank you. Much of what the concerns are from ourselves and the businesses have been covered by the Timeline licensing officer. We must also remember that Cheltenham has got and has managed to retain its purple flag status. We are now I believe going into our eighth year. It's very important that the public safety is taken into consideration as well as the environmental health and we do believe that such an outlet positioned in this area will add to the already growing problem of anti-social behaviour from the nearby pubs and clubs leading from Regent Street onto the promenade, also the proximity of the taxi rank to this area. Further to that, we've also sort of considered the public nuisance, the anti-social behaviour element of it in such a key location. It appears to be at odds with the overall look and feel of the promenade area and the target market would be people leaving clubs in the early hours. So we do believe that the anti-social behaviour element would be increased. It's also the length of the hours that of trading. There are a number of businesses in that area who are food outlets who are open until at least midnight whilst not serving the early hours of the morning, there are others within a very close walking distance who do cover those earlier hours of the morning. We've also been contacted by restaurants nearby who are concerned that it would detract from the overall aesthetic and ambiance of the promenade which is quite often used in the early evenings for people going to and from the theatre and Montpelier and enjoying the imperial gardens. We feel that the application isn't appropriate for the town and specifically that area of the town. It does bring some reputational risks, it's very in close proximity to an area which already experiences large amounts of anti-social behaviour that at Clarence Fountain formerly known as Boots Corner. Speaking on behalf of some of the businesses who have not formally lodged objections but who have been in touch with us over their concerns it is chiefly around the unsuitability of the vehicle and the space, the damage that it could potentially be doing to the area, the access for emergency services vehicles and the potential for increased anti-social behaviour and also as mentioned by the Licensing Officer, the use of that area for markets and other events during those trading hours. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I now give you time to make your case and if you could try to keep it to within ten minutes that would be much appreciated. My name is Mehmety Ilmaz. On this business I got 20 years experience and similarly I ran in Bristol city centre for years like 2008, 2012. I believe in myself, I can sort it out, handle it, everything because I got experience and for the noises I got like a power bank, no generator and for customer we will work three people, minimum three people and much as fast as we are going to serve it and not keeping the people in the area. After finish work we are going to clean the area 100 yards, 20 yards, there will be everything in my control. Here all I can say this one, sorry, a little bit nervous. Yes, no need to be nervous, this is not a trial, we are just trying to find out if your business is a suitable business to have in this area. I got public library insurance, everything, yeah full of. Okay, if you would like to switch your microphone off please? Thank you very much. Now, if you don't have questions for members first, I just missed that one off the paper here. Yes, members, does any of the members have questions? Councillor Bower. Thank you, can I ask questions of the bid and then of the applicant, is that the way it works, right, hello. Yes, if I might ask you, I am just wondering, you are mentioning quite a bit of anti social behaviour, could you give us the sort of examples of anything, the type of things that have been happening that you think will be made worse by this? I can, one prime example is people coming out of the pubs and clubs at the end of Regent Street and making their way onto the promenade. There was at one point some flowers put up there and they were just ripped out as people were leaving the pubs and clubs. That is one example of some anti social behaviour. There have been bins on the promenade, the doors have been opened and the litter spread around the promenade. There has also been a few issues with tax around the taxi rank. One of the other things is, and I think this may be exacerbated by this, there is quite often a lot of vomit on the streets leading from both the clubs at the end of Regent Street and also near Yeats and Revolution, there is a couple of takeaways around the corner there and I just think this would make it worse and perhaps spread that sort of thing. Those are examples of anti social behaviour that I am aware of. I am just wondering why you decided to apply to have your van in this particular area. We have heard there are quite a lot of problems associated with this particular area. Why did you decide to apply for here instead of another area? I had a kebab van in Ebbisham Road and I ran it for three months but I couldn't make money at all and I was in the down and because in my past time in the city centre you can make more money and keep running the business. That is why I applied in this town centre. Because many customers there you can make your business run and you can serve more customers. That is why. Because I was in Ebbisham Road and I ran it for three months and I couldn't make money at all and just give my pocket, pocket, pocket money everything. Spliers, bills. That is why I applied to the town centre. I know you can make money in the town centre. That is why. I got experience in Bristol for four years and I had never had trouble with nobody, even customers, police, hirees. It was in the city centre exactly. That is why. Thank you. If you could switch your mics. Thank you. Can I ask a question for the applicant please? Part of the policy is improving the look and feel of the area. How do you think you would be able to do that with your business? I would work with three people minimum. We can maybe four people. And all experienced, all trained people. So yeah I check the area, I can manage it. Cleaning, everything. Yeah I can run the area. And I check there is no houses, no residents, people they don't live in there. What I meant was actually improving the area rather than what your business is producing where you are. In other words that part of Cheltenham which is very valuable to the residents and we really love that area. We want to see it enhanced and improved so anything that goes there needs to be an improvement on what it is at the moment. Yes, I will make the new trailer. New trailer, looking good one, not old one. And I'm not running like every road six months now because I'm keep paying on my pocket. This area I will make the good looking trailer, brand new one. Put everything like fires, everything you know. Fire blanket, things you know, emergency things. And I will open at night time 6 p.m. till 4 a.m. I don't think nobody gonna desperate at this time because I checked it every night I'm going there, is nobody there. Nobody. Yeah. It's not gonna affected nobody I think at night time. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Hjelmes, I think we all applaud that you want to expand your business and make money, that's great. But I think as my colleagues have said, you know, about the promenade being the area it is there's a lot of shops and restaurants. And I think that that is the issue with it's the area you've picked. And I was gonna ask about your hours because you've said from six o'clock in the evening and that is... Yeah, yeah, about saying six o'clock is quite early as people still finishing work, families and what have you. OK. OK, thank you. Councillor Choi the last one left. Do you have any questions? I think it's good that you have experience, you know, in the long term working with sort of challenging customers. But we're just quite conscious the level of unpredictability in terms of the way people, you know, they can act quite erratically. And we tend to have really, really busy periods. I really appreciate the fact that you were having lower footfall on Evesham Road that you didn't have as many customers passing and purchasing from you. And I am sympathetic to the fact that you need to, you know, make an income and generate an income from this business. But I think it's just purely there will be several complicated issues that come as a result of the van being in that particular location. And do you feel like you would be prepared for, you know, like adequately for very challenging, sudden issues? Like, would you have mitigating, would you have a procedure in place just in case there are significant problems at any given time that you are operating? Yes, of course, I can be managing everything. And like I said, I've got a minimum people, free people are going to work in the van. I go public labs and we can, if I need it, I can hire the doorman, bouncer. And when it's fast, we can show the customer and not keep the customer in the area. And like I said, we can, we're going to hire the bouncer and security, which is very busy. Yeah, I'm thinking they're all the way to people are not in a good position, you know. Yeah. Thank you. Yes, I have a couple of questions and I think one you pretty nearly answered. I think to some extent it's a little unfair to, with all due respect to the bid, anti-social behaviour that's occurring at the moment, it's unfair to put it at your door because you're not there at the moment. Having said that, businesses of your nature will attract people coming out of pubs and clubs, too much to drink. That is where anti-social behaviour and yours may well be seen as a magnet for that. So my first question would be how would you manage that if you found that you were in a situation where anti-social behaviour was occurring and primarily due to your business. So that's my first question. I don't think we're going to have that situation because like I said, we're all training person, my friend, my cousin, you know. I don't think we're going to have any trouble because in the past I never had trouble because I know how to manage the customer. Yeah, I know how to manage the customer and my staff, they know as well. Yeah, I don't think we're going to have any trouble. And we can, like I said, if very busy, busy I'm going to hire two secretaries and they can watch the people, you know. Yeah, I don't think we're going to have any problem because, like in four years I never had environmental centre. Okay, thank you. Yeah, if you'd like to switch, although I think I'm okay to use my microphone and yours, the others aren't. Yeah, my concern would be that in other locations it might not be quite the same but where you attract a crowd, particularly crowds that have had alcohol and too much of it, that sort of thing, it's not your fault but you will be attracting it. But you tell me that you're prepared to employ security staff should that happen. My other question would be, as I think the officers mentioned, during, and the lady from the bid, various times throughout the year we have situations where other traders may not want your business. So Christmas time we have the Christmas fair, we have the German market and throughout the year we have things like this. And this is something we've done for many years and I think the traders that normally operate there wouldn't want to see your business. How would you feel if we said right for certain times we can't accommodate you? So I can move to the place, spot, I can move to spot at Christmas market time. I cannot stay exactly there, I can move to the spot because my money is going to be drivable. Yeah, it's going to be drivable. Not the trailer, one is going to be drivable but so I can move to spot fixable, you know, in the area. I think my point is I don't mean you to sort of move up or down out of the way of what is there but I mean move completely to another location because I don't think… Yes. Because you would be accommodating, so would you consider not… Yeah. Okay, I'll give you the officers. Yeah, I just need to pick this up, I mean that would be one of the issues of that location. That's the reason you've had the advice you've had from the outset is because where those markets come in, they will have priority, okay? You will not be able to trade when those markets are operating, okay? We won't move you to somewhere else in town to accommodate you because that would have needed to have been reflected in the application. Because in the same way you've had to go through this process for consideration of this consent application, if we were to say this evening, you can go and sit outside KFC when the Christmas market's on, those businesses in that part of town would say hold on, this is the busiest time of year for us, where's this guy coming from in plunking his business out outside of our permanent businesses. So, you know, if members, it's obviously for members to decide, but members cannot just locate you somewhere else around town. That would have had to have been in your application for that consultation process to consider whether you could trade somewhere else during certain times, okay? So if members decide that you shouldn't trade there, then you would not be able to trade there during whatever those periods were. So during the Christmas market time I can stay all the time in my same spot? Your application has been informal, since you've been with us for six or five years, right? You know, you haven't reflected in your application that you won't trade there at certain times. It's for members to decide if they grant your application and it's for them to decide how they would or wouldn't restrict your application. But obviously there's been a lot of evidence that's been considered that suggests that you shouldn't trade there when the markets are trading there, because that will generate problems for those markets. If the application was to be granted and you were allowed to trade there when the Christmas market was on, that might have a very disproportionate impact on the holding of that market. That market might not even come to Cheltenham, because it might be viewed that your business being there is not desirable for that particular market with the traders that they would want to attract. How long is going to the Christmas market for? How long? How many days? You know, the application needs to be granted or otherwise. It's not for us to discuss how many days that Christmas market may or may not be there. It's for the members to make a decision, okay? I don't know what the period of the Christmas market is at the moment, but you can look at how long it was there last year or the year before. It's not for the members to consider the issues, but not specifically how many days that Christmas market is going to be there or not, okay? If it's not a long time, like one week, two weeks, I can close that time. I can close the Christmas market time. I don't know how long the Christmas market is going to take place for. It's for the chair and this meeting to consider the application. We are not having a private conversation now about how long the Christmas market is going to be there, okay? So, I've said what I needed to and it's back to the chair now to consider their questions, all right? Yeah, but like I said, for Christmas time, because I remember like in Buff's Centre, about 15 days something, so two weeks I can close it. For two weeks, I can find a different spot because nobody. I think to be honest, we are looking at a new application with what you are saying. If we decide that this application isn't suitable tonight, it will then be for you to come back to the offices and say I didn't realise, so what markets do we have, what other functions are going on? Is it race week? So, various other functions and say, well, okay, we put in a new application for the rest of the year taking into consideration for those, but that's not the application that's in front of us tonight. We have to consider the application that you've put in tonight. Minor tweaks, yeah, we could consider and change them, but I think we're looking at something quite considerable, a big change to this application, and I think you would really, to be honest, you're going to have to come back to offices with a new application if you want to proceed along these lines. Okay? Yes, yeah, I understand. If there's no more questions to the applicant, we'll move into debate now before I open debate. I will remind you that it is important for you to give due regard to the Council's licensing policy and that if you deviate from the policy, you give clear reasons for doing so. It's important that you only take into account material licensing considerations and that your decisions are reasonable, proportionate and rational. So with that, does anyone want to start the debate? Thank you. Yeah, I think just listening to everybody, I do wonder if Ms Teal is fully understanding everything that's been said this evening. I'm just a bit concerned that you might not be understanding everything. Sorry, is that not working? I said I was just a bit concerned. I think Mr Yilmaz is understanding everything that's been discussed tonight. I'm not sure that he fully grasps everything. I was just a bit concerned about that. I would like to second that just because this is very technical, this is very complex stuff. I'm new to the committee. I'm still getting my head around it. I know that it involves a lot of technical language and I know that these applications can be quite intimidating and overwhelming to sort out. I'm just conscious of the fact that we need – it's important to have clarity across all borders. Does Jason have a response to that? Yeah, if I can just try and respond to that. Obviously, the report has been produced and the papers in relation to the report and the objections have been shared. The applicant has had the opportunity to look at those documents and if he had issues, if he couldn't understand any of that documentation, he could have sought some advice. He could have sought clarification. He's had opportunity before this evening to do that. Mr Yermaz equally could have brought someone along with him this evening to translate, to interpret, to help him fully understand the process. I think if the gentleman needs any clarification about things, then obviously that would be right and proper and he will be given his opportunity to respond a right reply. I'm assuming at the end before a decision is given. I think we've tried to go through the points as well as we can. There's no rabbits out of hats this evening. It's all in the report. It's all in the representations that have been made. I don't think there's any surprises and I think we have to consider this application. It's before us and we do make great efforts for people to engage people in the process. So I think that you should rest assured that provided that we go through the proper steps to consider the application properly, consider the evidence in terms of the representations, then I think that we've done our best for this to be a fair and open process. I was just going to try moving to debate. I just had the thing to do there. Personally I'm very sympathetic to the fact that you want to build this business and that you want to have lots of people coming along, et cetera. But it does seem to me that the location of the business is not really good. We have heard about antisocial behaviour in the area which happens anyway, but unfortunately if people are attracted particularly to your business, there is so much opportunity for more antisocial behaviour to actually happen in the area. And I think this is the major concern of the bid. And of course public safety is also involved in all this. So that's my worry. And also I wish we'd heard more about highways because I understand that a big vehicle being parked in that position would not be a good thing. It might block access by the emergency services. It might cause damage to the surface of that particular area of the promenade. I feel there's so much that is worrying about the location. And that's my feeling on it. It is outside our policy I understand for traders to be in that position which also is particularly concerning. That's my thought on it. Thank you. Yes, again I have sympathy with you and your business and wanting to make it a success; however, I do feel that the application is again outside the permitted area. That there have to be exceptional circumstances I think to therefore allow it. There are lots of other issues that are concerning me with the point that the area that you want to actually park is found unafraid. And I don't think it would enhance the area and I don't think it would add value to the promenade. There are lots of other businesses there who are making a living and you would be in direct competition with them. And I don't think that would be fair on them either. Thank you. I think I'm definitely conscious of the fact that this is a partnership working scheme so ultimately there are many stakeholders involved in this. We want to make sure that you would be having a good relationship with neighbouring amenities. And it doesn't feel as if this is something that at present they would be satisfied by under the guidance of this application. The fact that it doesn't really record with our existing policy, I kind of feel as though it's challenging for us. It's difficult for us to make an exception in this instance. And particularly in light of the fact that it would be an application for a 365 day a year presence. There's not a lot of compromise in that ultimately, just given the specifications that we've got in front of us. I think that we're going to need, if we were to approach, if we were to go ahead with this, we'd need way more nuance involved in it. I kind of feel as though this is too broad a brush stroke, really. And I don't necessarily feel as though it's feasible as things exist right now. I appreciate the fact that you're open to discussion, Mr. Jarmusz, about this and that you are willing to compromise potentially on timings that you'll be in operation. But to move locations, that would require a new application. And actually, probably for any kind of change to this, it would probably require starting from scratch. Which I understand would be really frustrating. I think it's just because there are so many different needs to consider from so many different people. We have to kind of contextualize everything like that. It is challenging, I guess. We could go on. Yes, I'll sort of add my little bit in here. I think to go against our policies, which were put in for very good reasons in the first place, to go against them we would need to see something, a substantial advantage to the town. As I said before, it's unfair to lay antisocial behaviour that already exists at your door is maybe a little bit unfair. But we do appreciate that it would almost certainly create, though not your fault, it may also create. There are also conflicts with other traders, which I believe are until midnight, the lady from the bid was saying. So if your business didn't start till midnight, although you're prepared to move your times a little bit, I would imagine moving your starting times to midnight would not work for you. But that would be something that you'd have to come back for. The other thing, the use of the vehicle, yes I wish we did have someone from highways, but I think it's probably a little bit more technical than that. Whereas a heavyish vehicle driving across there may not do too much damage, to have a vehicle of the size of yours parked in the same spot every day, I am concerned that that would cause damage. The business of other street traders throughout the year, Christmas markets, race week, various other times, that is too big a thing to just say, well we can tweak it. For me, I believe the whole application needs too many alterations to be dealt with by condition. And if you're still determined to get a trading licence in that position, you'll have to put another case forward to the licensing officers that will make this committee happy, that will solve our concerns. So for me, I'm not happy to progress this one. If there are any other comments, I think we've all spoken, I'd like now to move to the vote. Oh, I do beg your pardon. Yes, you have the right to reply. So if there's anything you'd like to say in summing up. Yes, I checked the area, the town centre, but I think I find that this is the best spot because in the town centre there's not any more spot like this one. I was believing that this spot is very good for that, for late night trading. And like I said, I can move to the flexible time, 8 till 4. And secondly, please give me the chance, like six months or one year to try it, if any problem, I will close it myself. I will close it myself, you know. But if you try, like without trying, nobody knows what's going to happen. If too many issues or altered versus failed fights, things like that, I will close it myself, you know. But if you try like six months or one year, we will see what happens, how it's going. I was believing, you know. And in the town centre, I checked all the spots, Jack, I didn't find the best spot like that. Yeah. Thank you. All I have to say. Now go to the vote. You can either approve this application because members are satisfied that the location is suitable or you can - Take my time, just go with that one. Oh, OK, then we'll go that way. So firstly, can I have a show of hands? We are using show of hands, we're not using the - Yes. Show of hands to approve this application as members are satisfied that the location is suitable. Can I have a show of hands on that? And then those are against. I'm afraid that has failed, so I'm afraid we won't be able to offer you this. Officers will get in touch with you and have a chat with you and let you know where you stand. OK, then. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We now need to go into closed session. So firstly, I'll tell anyone watching on YouTube, as far as you're concerned, the meeting is now coming to an end. This meeting is in accordance with section 100A4, Local Government Act 1972. The public be excluded from the meeting for the remainder of the agenda items, as it is likely that in view of the nature of the business to be transacted or the nature of the proceedings, members of the public are present, it will be disclosed to them, exempt information as defined in paragraph one and two, part one, schedule 12A, Local Government Act, namely information relating to any individual or information which is likely to reveal the identity of an individual. Can I have a show of hands on that? That is unanimous.