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Good morning everyone. Sorry for the delay. There's just a couple of Councillors have been unable to make it. I think there's some clash of meeting. I think there's another meeting. I'm not quite sure whether they were aware that that was cancelled. But anyway. So, as you all know I'm Councillor McPherson, Chair for Licensing. And just to remind everybody that this is a live meeting. So, anything that may be in front of you, laptops, notes, or anything of that nature, can possibly be viewed on that live stream. So, just to remind you of that. There are no fire alarms going -- registered to go off today. I haven't heard the test one. So, hopefully that's already happened. But if it does go off, then please follow the officers to ensure that you remain safe. The conveniences are out the door to the left. That was my right, yeah. Out the door to the left. Have to think of that. But I'm sure most of you know where they are. But I see we've got some new people here. What I'd like to do. Rather than me go through a list of those present. If I can ask the officers and Councillors just to introduce themselves around the room. And the bonus of that is I can stop speaking. So, if we start with Councillor Griffin. Tim Griffin. Councillor Rosie Moore. Councillor Tim Begg. Councillor Karen Young. Councillor Hugh Clough. Councillor Imogen Blackburn-Horgan. Elizabeth Lamerhin, Legal Advisor. Alison Denise Hello. Joe Dix, Environmental Quality and Growth Manager. Luke Atrophal, Environmental Health and Licensing Support Team Leader. Yvonne O'Donnell, Environmental Health Manager. Chris Connor, Committee Manager. Thank you very much. Sorry Luke and Joe down there. I couldn't see you because of the screen. Right in line of the fire you were. So, just an apology. I'll try to make sure I've got a line of sight for you. When it comes to speaking. Declaration of Interest members. I will remind you, although I know people in this room don't need to be reminded. That you can make declarations of interest at any time throughout the meeting. If you don't think of anything right now, that's fine. Just make that declaration as we proceed through. Are there any declarations of interest at this time? Okay, thank you very much. There are none. Minutes of the last meeting. Everybody received those. Any comments on those minutes would be appreciated. Going once. Going twice. Okay, silence assumes us then. I'll sign those minutes in that case in a few minutes. That takes us to item four already. As you would expect. So, that is now at public questions. And we do have a number of public questions. Just to remind those members who are here. I know a lot of us are old friends, we've known each other a long time. But this session will last for a maximum of 30 minutes. You have two minutes to ask your question. But you will be allowed to ask a supplementary question also. Which I know you haven't submitted. But that's fine. Just to remind you of the procedure, that's okay to do that. You can do one of two things. Should you wish to ask a supplementary question following the officer's response to your first question at that time? Then that's fine. Or you may wish to reserve that question for the end of the meeting. And that will also be fine. So, I'm trying to give you some extra space to speak. And, you know, I always try and do that. So, you can think about what it is that you might want to say as a supplementary. But if I can ask, there will only be one question per speaker here. And one supplementary per speaker also. So, when you put that supplementary, it will be up to you, whether directly following your first question or at the end of the meeting. You may choose which is best for you. Does that make sense? Everybody happy with that? I didn't make that overly complicated, did I? I think I was thinking that through as I was speaking, you know. I might have made that a bit more complicated than I'm required. But you can always ask. So, we have an order of speakers. But quite honestly, I don't mind who goes first. But I have Mr. Wennick up first on the list. If you wish to speak first, that's fine. And actually, I see that you've got your children here today. And that's absolutely fine. I mean, they're going to stay with you and that's fine. It is a public building just to reassure people. I'm absolutely fine with that. It's nice to see young people in the Chamber. So, thank you for bringing them. Over to you. Without the question, all. Yes, so the first question, the questions at this point will be taken as read. So, you just need to introduce yourself. And if you're speaking on behalf of anyone and the officer will respond. After that, you'll have an opportunity as the Chair just advised to speak for two minutes in regards to a supplementary. Okay, so my name is Kamil Dinek. I'm a Hackney–Tire driver. Yeah, I'm representing myself. So, the questions on the screen. Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you. If this question is relating to the report that's coming later, then WAV vehicles can still be licensed as a petrol or diesel vehicle. And they're not currently impacted by the decision that is made today. Proprietors that were one of the 50 licensed holders who took the opportunity to surrender their wheelchair accessible vehicle to license a zero emission saloon have had the option to swap the wheelchair option back into a WAV. Work is taking place at looking at what can be done to make it easier for wheelchair accessible users to access WAVs. And this includes adding telephone numbers to the list of WAVs on our website. And also in October, we removed the age limit. So, any age of a WAV can then be licensed. The availability of WAVs is not just an issue for Cambridge, but a national issue. Yep, is it my second question? Yeah, please, if you wish to ask it now, please do. So, Kerry, it will be more for you. So, dear Chair, at the last minutes of the committee meetings in January 2023, you said, I asked many, many vulnerable people in different group ages, is the silver taxi with the green stripe the safe vehicle to be in? The answer was no. The public don't have a clue about the livery safety that we've imposed on our taxi fleet, which is as well wheelchair accessible taxi. Quite frankly, nobody knows, except the old members of this committee, because we're all new members over here. So, you probably haven't been here when that was agreed. So, you said, Chair, you said we could really, you could really feature with that. You said, I can feel my artistic side coming out here. One of the committee members suggests that should to go on the television as a promotion. Year and a half past, and I'm sure you come up with some big, maybe national television advertisements about the silver coral safety that we impose on our wheelchair accessible fleet. And that sure, that will help us to, you know, build the customers back into the confidence to wheelchair accessible. It will help the drivers to, you know, start to invest in those young drivers, because the old driver can't, he can't push the wheelchair up the ramp. But the young drivers, everyone moved out. No one is interested in those vehicles. So, I'm so excited to hear about your artistic achievements in this matter. Please, Chair, if you could, if you don't have to, then thank you very much. That's the end of my question. Thank you. Well, thank you for your question, actually. I remember as well that speaking about the silver cars with the green stripe, I've always believed in it. I think it is a huge safety feature for the city. And personally, I'm promoting that all the time. And I would guess that the rest of the committee is doing that also. But if I understand you correctly, what you said is that you've asked a number of people and they don't know what that, what it is. They don't understand that the silver car with the green stripe is a safe environment in which they can find themselves home, especially in the nighttime economy. Which is really also where it comes into its own, is the safety of young people at the nighttime economy. Is that, were you referring to the fact that not enough people know about it? Just to clarify that. I was just referring to the fact that I'm interested what was actually done into a promotion of it. So, you know, with the television being mentioned, and, you know, lining up and tunes and everything. So, I'm just interested. That is all received. We didn't say anything about the television, that I do know. But I don't think it's a bad point that you've made actually, to be fair. That we could probably make more of that. We could probably make the public more aware that the silver car with the green stripe is in actual fact a city council registered vehicle. And a safe way to actually find your way to wherever it is you need to go. I think we probably could do a bit more on that. And I do accept that. And if you believe that people don't know enough about it, we perhaps might ask some questions of our own. But I think it's a fair point you've made. And I'm quite happy to speak to the officers after this meeting and see what we can do, what else we can do to actually publicize that fact. Because I do feel really strongly about it, that it's a great safety measure. And I'm quite happy to do a little bit more work on that. Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. So that's a good question. Thank you. Question number two. Ayesha, did I pronounce that correctly? So my question is, what happens when an electric vehicle breaks down? OK. Thank you for that. Similar to the current policy we have for any temporary vehicle. It must be a like for like in relation to the type of vehicle already on that plate. Since June 2022, if a temporary loan company cannot fully provide an electric vehicle, we will allow an ultra low vehicle plug in with CO2 of less than 75. It can be any colour and the window tints don't necessarily need to comply as long as the windows aren't blacked and the passenger can be seen in the back in daylight. So the quick answer to your question is it would have to be replaced like for like. But if the company don't have an electric, then it will be an ultra low. Do you mean by it can be you're saying it has to be a plug in hybrid then? Yes. OK. So it was my. Can I ask a question again? OK. What happened if the insurance company does not have an electric or a hybrid plug in? They can only provide because still there are many insurance company who doesn't have the hybrid plug in or electric vehicle because I went through the same phase with our car and we couldn't get any vehicle for three months. What will happen then if they don't have a plug in hybrid? We would look at each case on a case by case basis. We would speak to the loan company as well. And if generally we cannot get an electric or an ultra low, then we will consider a standard hybrid. But each case will be done on a base by case by case basis, depending on the length of time the temporary vehicle will be in operation. Right. OK. It's not always we know the length of the time because when electric car is break down, it can take months before we can get the car back because even the dealer or the garage does not know how long time it's going to take. So, you know, we can. I know you said it's on an individual basis, but how will you consider that on individual basis? Like if I say my vehicle is break down and they are offering me a hybrid as a hackney. Is there any evidence I need to provide? What will happen? Because I'm just a normal person. You know, my car break down. I just contacted the council. I can't get a like for like or plug in hybrid. What will I do then? Because I was in a similar situation like a year ago. I couldn't get any car. I was out of work for three months struggling with kids, bills and stuff. No support from anyone at all. So I just want to know in my situation now, obviously, the issue is solved. We paid a huge amount to repair electric car. I'm talking about £9,200 to repair electric vehicle on the top. We are paying for that finance, the repair cost on the top. We were paying the finance cost as well with no work at all. So I'm just asking in my situation, how will it work? As I said, we would have to look at each case on a case by case basis. Well, you have timed that exactly. That came down to one second when you stopped speaking. So well done. Sorry. I said you timed that exactly. That came down to one second just when you were finished. So that was perfectly timed. Thank you for your question. Eddie, I believe you're up next. You are. And I'll just bring to the committee's attention that Eddie has sent in a fairly long email and you'll find it on page 43 of the agenda. So, again, you just need to introduce yourself and the question will be taken as read and then you'll have time for the supplementary. Good morning, everybody. My name's Eddie Holland. I'm the Hackney carriage driver proprietor since 1991. I'm part of Cambridge City Licence Taxis representing over 170 Hackney vehicles. And my question is, given that we've got the question down already. Self-charging vehicles are more economical now. Why not extend the deadline. That's the question. I think I'm taking this one. Thank you, chair. Yeah. So it is possible that this is cheaper to run hybrids. Sorry. It's potentially true in some cases that standard hybrid cars are cheaper to run, cheaper to buy slightly than EVs at the moment. So there is an economic argument for it, but the policy supported around environmental conditions and emissions is not based on economic activities. The purpose of it is to cut polluting and carbon emissions as the purpose of the policy. And that's what was taken through committee in 2018. The reality is that actually running costs for hybrids and electric are very, very similar competitive. We've done a piece of work that was published as an appendix C that's in the pack with data around that with comparisons of costs between different vehicle types. So diesel, traditional hybrid and varying ranges of electric vehicle including plug-in hybrids. And the cost per mile are competitive or better if you charge at home for an electric vehicle slightly more expensive if you charge on the public network. So, you know, they're in in a similar range. And those are just the facts. So whether self-charging as you call them, traditional hybrid vehicles, which run solely on fossil fuels, by the way, are more economical, is really irrelevant to the policy. Can I retort to that? Yeah. Another question now, Eddie or later? Given your report and you're saying you can buy vehicles from 2013. Now, if you bought a vehicle for 2013, spent fifteen hundred pounds putting a meter, putting a camera, putting this, putting that, whatever we've got to do to jump through ever higher hurdles. You wouldn't want to put that on for one year or two years or three years. You're looking at a four year cycle. You wouldn't want to buy an electric vehicle that's outside the manufacturer's warranty because it's prohibitive if that battery pack goes. It's going to cost you many more thousands of pounds. I think in my report, I actually put down which from a motoring magazine paper, that even a Nissan Leaf will cost you nearly 10,000 pounds to to actually renew that battery pack. Now, we can't, as businessmen, afford to take that chance. So then we've got to say, well, at the very most, we've got to buy a vehicle that's four years old and run it for four. So you've got the eight years battery warranty on an electric vehicle, but it just don't make financial sense to somebody who runs a business. Have you ever run a business? In your report, it's quite wide ranging, but when it comes down to reality, most of what you've got in there has got very little credence to us as businessmen. I mean, coming back on that chair, I mean, we did a snapshot of costs of vehicles on a particular day on AutoTrader. There were thousands of electric vehicles available, they were very competitive prices, actually similar models of the same car, same age, same mileage. One which was traditional hybrid, one which was plug in hybrid, one which was fully electric were very, very similar in price. And, you know, nothing like the age you're talking about. In comparison, we published the range of vehicles available in that work. But I think you need to narrow your search down to a reality of business. We're businessmen, we need to make a profit, we can't afford 40, 50, 60 thousand pound cars. I mean, there were nothing like those prices. But you need to narrow your search down to vehicles of four years old or less, not 2013. So, again, it all gives credence, the fact is, we are just ordinary people out there trying to earn a living and make a profit. We've got to buy cars, we've got to make the cost of living. Eddie, I need to stop you there, Eddie. I'm sorry, you are a public speaker, you're here to ask a question and that's fine. But I think it's a little unfair to cross-examine the officer. If you've got a statement to make, that's fine. If you've got a question to make, that's fine and we'll do our best to answer it. But I understand... Well, to us, it's a very important risk. I understand how important it is. You say you're always on our side, but you don't really feel like it. I understand how important it is, Eddie. But I'm sorry, but I can't allow the officer to be cross-examined in that way. But if you have another statement to make or a question you'd like to ask him, that's fine and he'll do his best to answer it. Thank you very much. I don't know whether he could answer this next one. Given that South Cams have got over 1,600 vehicles licensed and only one of them is a Hackney carriage, is that something that the city council are trying to do, discourage Hackney carriages in favour of hire cars? Because you've got 1,600 cars coming into Cambridge day in, day out, night in, night out, with all the pollution, yet you're penalising 170 Hackney carriage drivers. It makes no sense. Okay, thanks for your question, Eddie. Your time's up now. So South Cams are also bringing in a policy where all electric or vehicles coming into the city will have to be electric or ultra-low by 2028. They have committed to that policy. We're looking at doing it as a more phased return, but that will then, hopefully with the city access scheme that we're proposing, only electric and ultra-low vehicles can come into the city regardless of who they're licensed by. Yeah, no, we understand that, but it just seems that the city are trying to just bring it in two or three or four years earlier. Time's up, Eddie, I'm afraid. Time's up, Eddie. Thank you. And why? Because we make little or little difference. Yeah, time's up, Eddie. Thank you. So our next speaker is Ahmed Kaye, and I've got on page 47 of the agenda, I've got an email. Is that from yourself? Did you send us an email? Which email, sir? Did you send us an email? No, I think our secretary, if I can send the email. Okay, so it may perhaps be somebody else. Okay, thank you for that. Oh, it is him. Yeah, I thought so. Yeah, so we have got an email from you. Yeah, that's on page 47. So your question is about the error paper against hybrids. We'd already spotted that, but thank you. I'll just let Yvonne respond. Yes, thank you for bringing that to our attention. It was also brought to my attention by the chair that we'd actually missed a word out in paragraph 3.18, which I think you're referring to. And what it should say is the petition was signed by 177 taxi drivers who strongly oppose the decision not to extend the June 2024 deadline. So that has been picked up. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Thank you. You can, just as any other speaker, if you've got another question you'd like to ask, and please, you're in the chair. Yes, thank you very much. I would like to introduce myself first. My name is Ahmed Karahmet. I'm the chairman of Cambridge City Licence Tax, representing over 60% of the whole Cambridge Hackney carriage trade. I hope you have all read the impact statements and seen the petition. I have a few comments on the officer's report. In recommendations section 2, it is stated that only 14 vehicles will be affected from this policy change. This is far to be true. Your decision today will affect the whole saloon taxis. According to our record, since 29th of January, only in four months, 24 existing saloon taxis were replaced with standard hybrid vehicles. Taxis can be replaced regardless of their age limit. Taxis can also be replaced due to an accident write-off or a high cost repair bill. Section 2.6 of the report clearly states that UK government has a long-term vision that all cars should be zero emission by 2040. The initial target was 2030. This was recently delayed with 10 years. Why the council doesn't follow the recommendations of the central government and delay their December 2028 date line for zero and low emission targets? In section 3.12, it is stated that the cost of electricity prices has been falling. In June 2023, SWARCO, the company operating on behalf of the council, has increased the taxi charging cost with over 150%. Council's taxi designated charging points are now more expensive than the regular charging points. For me to buy and run electric vehicles works out nearly two times more expensive than running my standard hybrid vehicle. Because I live in a flat and I cannot benefit from home discounted night tariffs. In section 3.18, you have already addressed it. There was an error. Thank you very much for completing it. Full text of the petition can be found in Appendix E. Section 3.19 is stating that South Cambridge Street Council is recently licensing around 1,400 vehicles. From the correspondence we received on Friday from their licensing shows that correct figure is 1,619. You run out of time, I'm afraid. That's it. You can finish that sentence then and we're done. In early May this year, joint taxi enforcement operation took place in Cambridge by South Cambridge Licensing and Cambridge Air Constabulary. From 19 vehicles checked, only three were fully compliant. After this enforcement, in his comments, Councillor Henry Bechler, lead cabinet member of South Cambridge… Thank you very much. I did say you could finish that sentence, not the whole statement. Thank you. Responses? I can take the point around. The SWACO charging network. So, yes, there was a big price increase and that was dependent on electricity prices. Electricity prices have risen 18 months ago for everybody. A huge amount. We at the time sustained a preferential 25p rate for taxi drivers from our charge points for over a year whilst our contractor SWACO was paying 37p a kilowatt hour for electricity. So thereby making a loss on every kilowatt hour that a taxi driver charged. They were under significant financial pressure and we negotiated a very competitive set of rates. 57p per kilowatt hour on our rapid charges as a preferential rate of taxis. 79p per kilowatt hour for public access to those charge points where that's allowed. That remains very, very competitive. May's national figures for rapid charge points, on average, they are 80p per kilowatt hour on the public network in England and Wales as per ZAPMAP. So 57p per kilowatt hour still remains a significant discount on the national picture. These charge points, although owned and installed by the City Council, are not run by the City Council under that contract, so it's an entirely private contract. SWACO need to make a profit in order to maintain those charge points. And as I said, the prices remain very, very competitive, especially for taxi drivers. No, you've had your two questions. Thank you so much. We have question number five. Is it Delaware? Who's asking that? No further speakers then? I have one here, Mr. Delaware. If he's not here, we've got Stephen Taylor as well. Who asks the question, is there any negative impact on EV vehicles? That was question five, and then we've got question six, which is Steve. Sorry, can't hear you. Yeah, absolutely. I don't mind at all. Hi, Steve Taylor. I'm a garage proprietor and I also own 18 Hackney garage plates in Cambridge. Thank you very much. Any responses? Joe was going to respond. Joe, can I ask you just to get a bit closer to the mic? Yeah, sorry, is that better? It's really quiet to hear you. I keep turning, I think, to look at the question. I think, Stephen, you've got two questions that are written questions. I'm going to take them both together because they're similar. So one is about winter issues with EV vehicles and one is about fires. I've done a bit of research on fires and I've tried to find really detailed forensic analysis of the numbers for this. So I've got two pieces of information around vehicle fires in electric vehicles, which are extremely rare. One is from the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency, which reported 23 fires from 611,000 electric vehicles during 2022, or 0.004% in a year. And this makes it 20 times less likely for a fire to happen in an electric vehicle than it does in an internal combustion engine vehicle. Also, I've got data from Australia's Department of Defence, EV Fire Safe, and they've managed to verify fewer than 500 electric car battery fires ever globally out of 20 million EVs worldwide. That's 80 times rarer than an internal combustion engine fire. And if it was a frequent risk, it'd be reflected in insurance premiums, which it isn't. So the facts are that electric vehicles are much less likely to catch fire than internal combustion engine vehicles, somewhere between 20 and 80 times less likely. Looking at the cold weather impacts, cold weather definitely does affect battery performance. It's well documented that somewhere between 10 and 20 % impact on vehicle range between 0 degrees and minus 20 degrees, something that we don't experience very often here. Your other point around cold weather, freezing batteries and mobilising people, trapping people in cars, I find it very, very difficult to find any instances of those that were credible or it doesn't seem to be a very common occurrence at all. So I find very little evidence around that. I'm quite happy for you to present me with some evidence. I will definitely look at that. So generally speaking, in cold weather, you need to use things like the heater in the car and so on. It's a known issue that you get less range out of a vehicle battery in cold weather. All of the manufacturers issue guidance around this and give advice on what to do to ameliorate that. But it is just a fact of operating one of those vehicles. But it's not a catastrophic thing. Indeed, in Europe, the country with the highest uptake of electric vehicles is Norway. It experiences much more extreme temperatures than we do and there's not a big issue with it there. OK, thank you for that. Well, you asked two questions there, Mr Taylor, already. However, you put them in, so if nobody's got any objections, I don't have concern if you want to ask a supplementary. Thank you. I think I got an extra question chucked at me. I'm a bit baffled now because the response from Joe there about electric vehicles, a very rare catching fire. Why did the Cambridgeshire Fire Brigade last week put out warnings about two electric vehicle fires to make sure that you plug them in properly and charge them properly? Why have all scrapyards in the UK got big 40 foot containers that hold water so any damage an electric vehicle comes in has to be put in there for 48 hours? They're clearly not safe. They're not economical. They're nowhere near as efficient as a plug in hybrid. They don't let you down the hybrids. They're always there. They can go on any distance. They can do anything. And they are a lot cheaper to run. I bought a new one on Friday and I drove it back from Peterborough and that was doing 65 to the gallon. I worked out that it was costing me just over nine pence a mile. When you are charging at seventy nine pence, that works out at thirteen, fourteen pence a mile. And you are saying that the taxi prices is cheaper on electric. It used to be thirteen pence. It's now four times as much. And the council encouraged the drivers to go and buy electric vehicles because the multi-seaters were too expensive to buy. So they were given an option to get an electric vehicle on a multi-seater plate. So basically we're not being helped. The way forward is to relook at this and see why everybody is supporting self-charging vehicles. Because they're more economical. They're safer. They're more reliable. And they're 60 percent cheaper, even in your own report. Look at the price difference. It's a no brainer. So we are asking if you can reconsider and extend the life of the self-charging vehicle. Because I cannot afford to spend sixty three thousand pound on an electric multi-seater. Okay, thank you for that Mr Taylor. Thank you. Do you want to respond Jack? Thanks chair. There's a couple of points I'd like to come back on. A, you know, the charging cost here for taxis is not seventy nine pence. It's fifty seven pence a kilowatt-hour. Sorry Joe, could I just ask you to emphasise that? Just to confirm that the cost for taxi drivers on our charging network for taxis in the city is fifty seven pence, not seventy nine pence. So just a correction there. In terms of the advice from the fire service, I'm not familiar with that particular report. But they have been very clear that there's a great deal of danger from things like illegally imported electric scooters. And batteries for electric bicycles causing a danger when they're not dealt with correctly. There's an enormous amount of health and safety governing the production and use of car vehicles. And the facts just don't bear out the dangers you are referring to. The fact that scrap dealers have special set-ups for dealing with scrap electric cars. It's because, yes, lithium batteries do present the hazard. It's a well-known one. And it has to be dealt with in terms of health and safety accordingly. But that doesn't mean that these things are inherently dangerous or present any greater risk. In fact, the facts bear out that they are actually lower risk than internal combustion engine vehicles. OK, thank you for that. So we just run over a little bit over the 30 minutes. But I think it's well worth that. Lots of decent questions there. Councilor Husei, you wish to speak? That's absolutely fine. You can speak now or another time. Sorry for the confusion. We didn't realise that question five was yours because you didn't tell me when I asked you that you didn't tell me that. I said, did you submit a question? You said no. So that was our confusion. So sorry about that, but we know where we are now. So you can speak as a councillor either now or later in the meeting. How do you wish? Do you wish to speak now? OK, please. Thank you, sir. And everyone, thank you, everyone, to give me a chance to speak. I am doing the dual role as a city councillor, as a taxi driver. So I am driving EV taxi last two years. I want to share some my personal experience. How does it work? Number one is mentioning, we have repeat charts. What is the definition of repeat charts? Repeat chart should be about 50 kilowatt per hour. But unfortunately, I give you a share this email to all of our committee members. I usually always charge in my home. I don't go there, but I all that driver complaining about it. And I physically I go I log in my car hour and 28 minutes and I got only 18 kilowatt. That means my car is 77 kilowatt. It needs 6 hour and 15 minutes to recharge. And the price is our contacts, say 57 pence. But unfortunately, new payment system, they charge me 79 pence per kilowatt. Because I am using the same app, I don't task any like a contactless or any other things. I have a taxi, I registered as a taxi driver and I plug in my vehicle. I connect it with the app, but the price comes 79 pence per kilowatt. As all the driver complaining, it is real. I found it. And the charging point is time limit. We have one hour maximum stay, but I need to plug in for full charge, 6 hour and 15 minutes. Even the taxi driver have living in bulk building or flat who have to charge in outside, how they can work. If they have to plug in for 4 or 5 hours and get a 20p discount, even they are not getting the discount. It is really shocking and it is not practical. As what we are saying on thing, on paper, on website, but reality is really different. And I have a Volkswagen ID.4, the electric vehicle. They say 317 mile range, but in practical I can drive 180 mile. That's the reality. If I go to Heathrow and come back, my battery is fully finished, I have to use rapid charge. If I plug in there, I do it 6 hours, 15 minutes and cost me 60 pound, 63 pound. And I get 110 pound fare and 63 pound, I am paying only for recharging and waiting another 6 hours. How does it work? And the maintenance, and I expand my car for 54 thousand pound to better environment and clean air. And within 2 years, my two headlights, the LED gone, and it is not covered by Oriente because I use it as a taxi and mileage is high. And every light, the VW, only I have to do by VW. I cannot go any other place. They need to collaborate, they need to software update and cost me on light 1818 pound and 10 pence. So two light, I have to expand 3600 pound only to change the side light. I used to be combustion engine, 99 pence. I can do change my light within two minutes. And I have to book a taxi for 6 hours to replace the light. So it is really not realistic as a taxi work as at the moment how the infrastructure is ready is not really suitable. But still we, everyone have a goal to go to net zero, give everyone the chance to use their living hood and the environment to make a combination. It is the number one thing. And the second thing is I want to mention about the public toilet. It is all the drivers that comes to me in the nighttime around 5000 people comes in the town to enjoy their night life. And around 500 professional taxi driver working in late night in weekend. But there is no public toilet facility in Cambridge City. That's really shocking. Sometimes some people, ordinary people asking where the public toilet. It comes from abroad, it comes from other city. So there is no public toilet. It is a shame from my mouth to say we have no public toilet in Cambridge City. And we are campaigning, we are the great Britain, we are the great. But we need some public toilet facility immediately portable or permanent. And most of the people I saw in my eye witness, even the women, the three four women surrounding and one woman sitting and do a pee on the football. It is not her fault, it is our fault. As a city council we cannot provide the service. And SARS is our holy place. You see all the SARS on the wall and the door, you see the pee mark. Every Saturday late night all the pee on the SARS wall in Cambridge City. And people need to go on Sunday to do the prayer in the SARS. So I ask as a licensing committee, because this question comes to all the taxi driver, because they are professional, they cannot do pee on the road like this. So they request me to ask you to negotiate with other city service and make immediate public toilet facility for our city. And try to give our own talent, own residents who live in in Cambridge City, but they are our little bit harsh policy in a taxi. They're going to Lowerhampton and Southstruck take the licensing and the work in Cambridge City with any car they have choice. So I hope the council or the member they understand that is issue. Some previous speaker they already told Southstruck have 1600 private air, Lowerhampton have 85000 private air license. But Cambridge City we have only less than 100 because our harsh policy and short of lack of like a motel place. We have only one motel place and I can be a motel 2 times, but South York and other place they're doing a motel once a year. So they have a free different choice. So they are coming to Cambridge City, but I want all our residents who live in city, they should be get a license from Cambridge City Council. It will be our revenue as well. Thank you very much Chad. Okay, thank you Councillors. You put a lot of things in there in a reasonably short time. So for squeezing all those things in there. We've got a note of all those and we'll definitely speak on another occasion on some of that. Because not all of it falls obviously into the remit of the licensing committee, but I get there are some issues there. But as we need to link up with other parts of the council to see what resolutions can be sought for those. But thank you very much for that. Okay, in that case that completes all our questions today. I know you're outside the time, but that's fine. Just to reassure members and if there is anybody on screen that in fact as a council, you are allowed to speak outside of that. Any meeting you wish and that's what you've done. Thank you so much. I think we're now on to item 5. Yvonne I believe it's over to you. Thank you Chair. So this is looking at the environmental considerations of the Hackney carriage and private hire taxi policy. And for those members who are relatively new to this I'll just give an outline of the history of the journey that we've gone through to get to where we are today. So in October 2016 members amended the taxi policy to include a commitment to implement changes to increase the take-up of ultra low and zero emission vehicles such as plug-in hybrids with emission levels of less than 75 grams per kilometre of carbon monoxide or electric only. In 2018 this policy was implemented as a phased approach over a 10 year period with a view to having all our taxis and private hire electric or ultra low by 2028. In 2020 all new saloon vehicles must be electric or plug-in hybrid. So that's any new vehicle either new vehicle or a new renewal of an existing plate. In 2022 the trade were concerned about the availability of such vehicles due to Brexit, the pandemic and the crisis in Ukraine. There was a need to be flexible and members of this committee agreed in June 2022 to allow saloon vehicles to be standard hybrid with emission levels of less than 120 grams per kilometre to be licensed until June 2024 when it will be reviewed. In January 2024 this change in the policy was reviewed and officers bought a report to this licensing committee to review the policy to remove the inclusion of the standard hybrids and revert back to the original policy of ultra low or electric saloon cars. This decision was resolved unanimously and you can see the appendix B on page 25. Following the decision the trade were concerned and the meeting was arranged in March 2024 with the chief exec, chair of licensing and the environment health manager. Evidence of availability cost and performance as outlined in appendix C on page 27 was presented and we were comparing light for light for ultra low and electric and standard hybrid. At the meeting it was agreed that the trade would provide evidence that could give additional context on how this decision would impact drivers and by the 17th May 10 impact statements were provided a petition signed by 177 drivers were submitted and these can all be found in appendix D and E from page 33 on. The main point raised by the trade was the financial difficulties this decision would cause the trade and there was also some question about the effectiveness of the ultra low emission vehicles compared to standard hybrid and the actual concern around what is the actual impact on air quality. It should also be noted as already said that south cams are mirroring Cambridge city's policy that all of their licensed vehicles will be zero or ultra low by the 1st of December 2028. This would also tie in with our current policy of restricting city access city centre access to ultra low and zero emission vehicles only by December 2028. So reverting back to the recommendation that's on page 10, so members of the licensed committee are recommended to confirm the decision made on the 29th of January 24 and to agree the policy that's listed in appendix A and to note that this change this reversion back to the original policy will impact on 14 standard hybrids. Thank you chair. Questions members? Thank you chair and my concern is a bit confused with the dates given. So 2016 this committee took a commitment to ask officers to go out and have a look at what we wanted to do to make a commitment to our net zone policy. And have a look at what we wanted to do to make a commitment to our net zero. So that was a commitment that this council made that we would consider what is out there. We then brought another committee with us. So that was a two year planning or two year research. And then we brought another committee report back in 2018 to implement the new policy. And that new policy was implemented with effect from 2020. Yes there was a two year phased in. So that also allowed us to bring in the recharge points. So we've got 21 taxi charge points. So we were given the capital money to invest in 21 charge points for taxis only. So during that period of time we brought in the infrastructure and we supported the trade with an implementation of January. Oh sorry in 2020. So from 2020 people were still allowed to have a standard hybrid vehicle which we've been hearing is... Existing, existing. So we're talking about any new vehicles. So this is anyone that's. So back back then we had an age limit. Yeah. So the age limit was nine years after nine years you had to change your vehicle. Right. So if a vehicle was coming up to its age of nine years and they needed to change the vehicle. They would have had to replace it with a plug in hybrid or electric. From 2020. From 2020. Anything existing would remain on the fleet until that age limit. That age limit was then extended from nine years to 12 and 15 years for ultra low and salute electric respectively. So it wasn't it wasn't asking the trade to go back and change all their vehicles immediately. They had the lifespan of their vehicle to make those business decisions. OK. So all taxi drivers and operators were aware that from 2020 if they wanted to bring a new car in. It had to be either standard hybrid. No it had to be plug in hybrid or electric fully electric from 2020 onwards. Yes. But existing cars could stay. And there's a real licensing every year isn't there. But they could stay until the end of their life. Right. OK. So so a taxi driver in now in in January and this year in 2024 will have had four years knowing that any new cars. Should be a plug in hybrid or electric right. But we're saying this 14 of them. So what's the 14. So what my understanding is what the trade have asked us to do is continue allowing new vehicles to be licensed at a standard hybrid for another two years. OK. To give them another two years. So our calculation and I appreciate this doesn't take into account account vehicles that have broken down or vehicles that need replacing. But when you look at our existing policy of the age rules. Yeah. Then there are currently 14 standard hybrids who are due to be replaced because their age limit is coming up over the next 14 years. So it would mean depending on which way this policy goes today that they those 14 if we don't extend it to 2026 which is what the request is from the trade. You're going to have 14 vehicles that are technically going to be negatively impacted and have to change where if we extend it to 26 they wouldn't have to change into an ultra low. They could remain a standard hybrid. If we do change the policy today then those vehicles will be negatively impacted. Right. And then just thank you. That's much clearer now. So just finally then. If what's the 2028 date. Is that the 28 date means after that it has to be fully electric. Or again the vehicles that were licensed in between now and then can still stay until the end of their life. Yes. So basically back in the day in 2016 to 18 we as a council took a commitment that we would aspirationally like all our taxi vehicles to be electric ultra low by 2028. And so that was our aspiration. We knew that there's going to be why we call a couple of stragglers that hadn't quite got there but they were due to be replaced for electric ultra low. This at the time. We were also considering this for wheelchair accessible but we also appreciate the wheelchair accessible market may not be up to speed at the moment which is why we're focusing on saloon. However due to our flexibility back in 2022 to allow another two years although we're aspiring to 2028 it's likely that with the change that we made in 2022 to 2024. We're not likely to have all our vehicles ultra low or electric by I'm gonna say 2035. I'm looking at Joe now quickly with our sums. Sorry if I can just see it coming there. So I mean the original policy meant that because of our age restrictions all of the taxis would have had to have been replaced by 2028. So in theory they could have all run their time and transition to the new standard. So it basically impacted no it didn't cut anyone's vehicle life any more than existing policy. So it was flexible in that regard. So the fact that we have given a little bit of a derogation because of the availability of cars in the middle of that period there will be a few standard hybrids now that if they play out their right their age restriction they'll still be on the fleet after 2028. But it is a very small number and they are you know reasonably low emission. But the idea was that after 2028 you know there wouldn't be any vehicles on the fleet that weren't low emission. And that's how the policy was set up. So it's given that everybody would run out there their license time no one would be forced to change their car earlier than they imagined they would and that the policy would be bought in with you know reasonable adjust transition to electric vehicles. Thank you. Sorry chair I've got another set of questions. No that's absolutely fine. Is anybody else wishing to speak? So Councillor you're in a roll you might as well carry on. Are you OK with that Councillor Griffin? OK please. OK thank you. So the next sort of questions is around cost. So I've heard in the report it said we've got 1,400 vehicles roughly taxis and we've got 21 charging points. Is that right? No we've got 500 vehicles. Cambridge City have got five it's 40 in the report it was 1,400 for south cams but we've got about 500. So we've got about 300 hacks and probably a hundred and something private high. So 450 ish. OK but south cams also operate within Cambridge City. Anybody can operate in the city. Yeah so we've got nearly 2,000 vehicles and 21 charging points. Is that right? Is that right? We have installed 21 charge points in the city for taxis. That does not seem adequate to cover all the taxis that are operating here. Most of the south cams are not electric at the moment. Oh right OK. So are there plans to increase I mean I've also understood from the discussion that they get on those charging stations they get a reduced rate or there seems to be some debate as to actually what they are being charged. But if we are asking them all to be plug in hybrid or electric it's reasonable for us to be providing more more than 21 charging points. Do we have plans to increase the number? I'm going to revert over to Joe because he will be able to or he probably went off the top of his head but we know what the usage is at the moment for those vehicle those charge points and they're very underutilized I would suggest. But we need to work with south cams because obviously the City Council funded the install of these charge points. We are looking at other types of charge points so car parts not taxi related but as a city council we are looking at more charge points in the city. We need to work with south cams I think if we are if they're implementing that they need to also support the infrastructure not just in the city but in these surrounding villages. But I'll revert over to Joe. Thank you chair Councillor Young. Yeah so there's a number of things to unpack there. Yes we've got this network which was partly covered by funded by central government funding partly funded by the Great Cambridge Partnership and partly funded by the City Council to introduce a rapid network for taxis, exclusively for taxis for the first three years with a preferential rate. Utilization of that network is still quite low so the most used site is used about 15% of the time and on average those that network is used about 5% of the time. So it's not oversubscribed in terms of usage by the trade or by the public. We have that data available and it's also worth noting that and currently we have about 60 electric vehicles on our own fleet that are able to take advantage of at those sites. Not sure how many south cams have but they have a number as well and they are eligible to apply and use those charge points as well but as I said they're not massively overused in fact they're significantly underused. And for the first three or four years it was sort of sub 3% usage. Okay but that says to me that taxi drivers are charging them their vehicles elsewhere so they're not getting the preferential rate. And have we asked why? I mean is it are they in the wrong places? I mean I also understand that taxis sorry charging a vehicle overnight takes a long time. I think there's somewhere in the reports that you or some of the comments the inputs that we've had from the taxi drivers it takes six hours to charge a vehicle. I mean that's not practical or everywhere I mean presumably that needs to be somewhere where they near where they live. And if they don't one person said he didn't have a house where he had a he could charge his taxi at home. So where are they charging and why are we asked why they're not using our taxi our charging stations? It's definitely economically preferential to charge at home if you can because the cost is much lower. And you can now buy significantly advantageous tariffs to do so to charge overnight as low as seven bens per kilowatt hour in some cases. So you know we carried out with Energy Saving Trust a detailed feasibility study which looked at location, the number of charge points we would need and so on. The behavior of taxi drivers we polled taxi drivers back in 2016 for this looked at their behavior looked at who had charging at home who didn't. In a great deal of detail all of this was presented in the report before we bought the policy in 2018. And we provided we bid for and provided the sort of network that was required to support the activity of our taxi drivers. And they were consulted about locations and we did our best to get charge points in the sorts of places that were required. There are other constraints around putting in charge points, electricity supply being one, health and safety being another. And you know it's not it's been quite a challenge getting that network in. But it is successful and effective and I said it's it's got a sort of modest usage and the reason being that rapid charging is always going to be more expensive than other forms of charging. Not all taxi drivers are able to have off street parking that's definitely an issue and therefore they're reliant on public networks. And that's why we've made that provision also at a 50 kilowatt charge point you can roughly get about 70 to 80 percent of a charge of your battery charged in between 20 and 40 minutes. If you are available to take advantage of that. I know that Councillor Delawe I said you could only get 12 kilowatts from one of the sites. Well some vehicles are not capable of charging at 50 kilowatts and some can only charge at eleven and a half kilowatts and that's changing very rapidly. Some early models are stuck charging I don't know what model that Councillor drives but certainly that's becoming a lot rarer. So all of our rapid charges are capable of providing a 50 kilowatt charge. In terms of future provision well the idea was that government would pump prime a significant amount of charging initially for taxis but more widely as well. They provided various funding routes and on street slower charging as well in a number of areas that we've been successful getting government money for. The market is also really catching up and there's an enormous amount more provision than there was. The Combined Authority and County Councillor also have also bid for successfully Levi funding low emission vehicle infrastructure funding. And we'll be taking forward a Combined Authority wide electric vehicle and charging strategy over the coming years. So they've just got a new officer in post to bring this forward and they'll be looking at all of these issues in the road. So really the focus of charge point provision has moved more mainstream and there'll be partly market and this Combined Authority group of which I do contribute to will be looking at the areas that are not going to be provided by market forces basically over the coming years. But as I say the infrastructure we have currently is sufficient to service the current demand. OK. Are you done Councillor Lea? Yes thank you. Lots of good questions there. Thank you very much. I think it's also useful to have people here on the committee. It's quite a complicated issue not been here before and to ask those questions I think actually a really good round up for everybody I think. I think most people appreciated you asking those questions that was great. So Councillor Griffin your next. Thank you Chair. Thank you so much. I would like to thank Councillor Young because she asked many of the questions that I had in my mind. But I'm still struggling a bit with the sort of the clash of viewpoints here because from the officers I'm hearing well everything's OK. Things are you know going along as planned and this proposal here should be of no problem. And I'm seeing that we have on the other hand I'm seeing we have a petition signed by 177 taxi drivers that seem to take issue with that and have a very different point of view. And these are people that are our taxi drivers and are dealing with these day to day problems that we've heard something about here today. And so I'm just trying to figure out what I mean I guess this is more of a comment than a question but maybe one of you could address this. Why is there such a conflict here? Why aren't we a little bit closer to an agreement here or some sort of compromise? That's my question or comment. Yes so obviously the trade are a business and they run a business and they need to do it as economically as possible. We all understand that. But on the same hand as a council we are committed to climate change. We're committed to net zero and we need to start pushing our policies to start meeting that longer term challenge. Or longer term aspiration as a council that we have signed up to. So there's always going to be conflicts between various partners on a lot of these address levels. And it's really what is the priority of this council as we go towards climate change and net zero. And I think that's where it's getting that balance right between the two. Joe did you want to? I'll just add to that. Clearly the huge hike in electricity prices has made a difference to the attractiveness of this policy for those running businesses. That's something completely outside the control of the city council and in fact everybody's had to cope with that. And because the electricity prices are coming down we will negotiate hard with our charge point supplier on a regular basis to try and make sure we maintain competitive costs. So I can certainly give that commitment. I think that also any change is difficult and the transition to an electric vehicle requires a change of mindset. Something that the taxi trade really embraced well at first. Those that were pioneers of it. I was very thankful for that and they became good advocates for this activity. But you have to operate in a different way. There are different constraints around these vehicles. I think that that transition is hard and it's even harder if it's not so financially advantageous as it was at the start. It was a much easier sell when the electricity was costing 13p a kilowatt hour. It no longer is. But in time, if you factored in all the environmental impacts of fossil fuels, you would still remain a competitive environment and still does. It's still competitive mile per mile versus diesel at the moment. Thank you. Can I have a follow-up? The question is, it seems to me that we have a choice here to either uphold the deadline of June 24 or possibly to extend it to 26. What are the pros and cons of those two things? Thanks. A very good question. Initially we focused on reducing the emissions of taxis because in the city centre area they were responsible for 11% of tailpipe emissions. Contributing to poor air quality in the city centre at the time. And we've seen a significant improvement in that due to policies we've taken on both buses and taxis. So that's one of the things that we could have a significant influence on. That having been said, the marginal impacts of banning new traditional hybrids is going to be quite small in terms of air pollution. But it's going to be bigger in terms of carbon emissions because at the end of the day a traditional hybrid solely runs on fossil fuel. For all the marketing hype around plug-in hybrids and electric running and so on, actually the entire amount of energy in a traditional hybrid comes from fossil fuel. And there's no way around that. Whether they're doing 55 miles per gallon or 70 miles per gallon, it's still all tailpipe emissions at the end of the day. So the impact is quite small because there is a relatively small part of the current fleet. But it's nonetheless fewer emissions if you move them onto electric. Councillor Bick. Thank you, Chair. I found the questioning really helpful. I think we're all asking each other's questions at the moment. Just as a note point, the big revelation to me from the questions has been that perhaps the report could have referred to the word new in relation to the change expected in the middle of this year. I feel that that is now clear to me that we are talking about vehicles that have reached an age where they need to be replaced. And the question is, what with? That seems to me much clearer from the questions and the answers that we've received. I just wanted to ask one further question, and that is since the policy was adopted in 2018, how many new registrations of electric and plug-in hybrids have there been? It may be in the report, and there are massive figures. It would help if that was turned up to us because I think it gives us some sense of what has actually happened since the decision in 2018 was taken and to know how many people have moved forward in conformance with that plan and invested accordingly. It seems quite an important thing to put in the balance with the request that we hold fire on people making a similar change. I think obviously wheelchair accessibles aren't part of this, so I think we're nearing the 100 mark. I think 94 is coming to my mind because I have to do returns every quarter, so I think we're nearing the 100 mark now. I think we got 22% of our vehicles, our Cambridge City Council's taxis, 22% are ultra-lower electric. So could you take out of that the numbers that we aren't applying the policy to at the moment, the disability access ones, and tell me what the percentages are of the vehicles that we are addressing? I think we've got 160 wheelchair accessibles. I'll do my maths very quickly here. There's about 250 vehicles that aren't wheelchair accessible and we've got nearly 100 which are electric or ultra-low. Don't hold me to that because I haven't got the figures in front of me. Luke's just checking now on the database. So can I come back to you on that question? Because I want to give you accurate information. Yes, I hope you would. But just if those sort of numbers are right, and I still look for validation, we're addressing our policy to about 250 for the moment. And 100 or thereabouts have already registered new vehicles since 2018 as electric or plug-in hybrid. And 14 are impacted by the decision that was taken in January. Where's the rest? I don't understand. I'm maybe not thinking terribly logically here, but if 100 have already changed and only 14 are affected by the decision today, what about the others? Some of those vehicles haven't reached their end of life yet. So there's more vehicles that are going to be end of life after 2026. So when I say end of life, I mean the expiry of their registration. So any petrol or diesel will have a nine-year lifespan, so they may not come to an end until after 2026. But it's the 14 that end of life is between 2024 and 2026. Does that make sense? Thank you. I would like to say that I share the cloud of concern, which I think is coming from Councillor Young and Councillor Griffin, about some elements of this proposal. I feel that the impact statements as presented are quite powerful. I'm not sure that the report really sort of tackles each of the issues raised in those impact statements in detail, as you might get in the planning thing where they say these are the things that are raised and these are our responses. So, you know, it's like a sort of consultation response. I'm a little worried about that. I'm conscious of the issues raised by the taxi drivers about, well, is this viable or will we be better? That's sort of effectively moving away from Cambridge and being registered somewhere else as far as Wolverhampton. So it would have been nice, in my view, to have seen some skeleton income statements for what it is like to operate a standard hybrid, a plug-in hybrid, and also so we can actually understand what financial pressures the taxi drivers are facing. I think the argument about amortising the use of an electric vehicle over the period, the battery life warranty before that expires, that's also very important because I can take that. I think that's a solid point. So, actually, if we had tried to understand the financial realities that the taxi drivers face, and had presented that in a way that one could have looked at it, that might have made me less concerned. So at the moment I'm living, possibly like two other councillors, in a cloud of concern about this. Thank you. So I have a couple of things just to remind my fellow councillors of, and also a couple of questions, I think. Firstly, I'd just like to remind everyone that this council did declare a climate emergency, and that was a unanimous decision. I understand that was before some people here were elected. But in our climate change strategy 2021, we did commit to being a net zero carbon council by 2030, and we have an ambition to be a net zero carbon city also by 2030. I do appreciate in the report that the national guidelines are 2050, but I think that it's pretty much understood that anyone paying any attention to climate would acknowledge that 2050 is too late. As part of that climate change strategy, we have our own EV policy for council vehicles, so we're not just asking our taxi drivers to have ultra low or energy electric vehicles by 2028, but that's our policy for our own vehicles. Obviously, like for the wheelchair accessible, there are some vehicles, like the very, very large bin lorries and some of the very large street sweepers that are not currently available. So, like with the wheelchair accessible, we're being flexible, but our policy is to move to electric vehicles ourselves. We also have our new air quality strategy, which we signed up to this year, and I'm pleased to say that we are doing that in conjunction with SouthCAMS. And our policy that we agreed on this for the taxis in 2018, when we agreed that SouthCAMS were not doing anything. And we have been leading, for example, not just in Cambridgeshire, but actually nationally, we've had national interest on that, and other councils, for example, SouthCAMS, are now following suit, so it does have an impact. When one council takes the lead, or more than one council takes the lead, it does have an impact, and that's what we need to do to clean up the air in Cambridge, but also to cut our own carbon emissions here in Cambridge, and across Britain, also obviously globally. I'm pleased to say that SouthCAMS are also following our policies on a number of areas, for example, the training of things that we expect our taxi drivers to do to enable and ensure the safety of our residents and visitors that use them. I agree with the first question about making it well known, more publicly well known, that our taxi drivers go through rigorous checks, rigorous training, and also, obviously, with these policies are more environmentally friendly, and I think that we should do more to advertise that, and I'd be happy to talk to the chair and environmental health manager on that. So my questions…oh, also, I'd just like to say, in the meeting, because I think possibly only the chair was present, in 2022, we also had a lot of people coming to public speakers at that committee asking us not to change the policy, and that was residents. We had a lot of residents saying, Do not backtrack on this, and it was particularly residents around the station, but there were residents concerned about the impacts, so I just need to add that since we've been going through the history. I just wonder, it was touched on earlier, if we extend to 2026, when would the taxi fleet roughly be fully ultra-low emission? Do we know that? And how would that fit with our 2030 targets? Plus, how would that fit with our 2028 plans for city access? Because, obviously, the long lead in the plan was that by 2028, pretty much all of our vehicles, through their natural life, would then have been replaced with ultra-low or electric. No one would be forced to get rid of a good car to just fit with the policy. We've already extended that by two years. If we do it by another two years, how does that then fit with the 2028, and is there a chance that there would be vehicles that could be licensed by us, but couldn't access parts of the city? Thank you. And so we'd need to get new vehicles anyway in 2028. So just on the point, if we did extend it to 2026, and we kept the nine-year maximum age limit for standard hybrids, my calculation says that we could potentially have standard hybrids on the fleet until 2035. So it'd be 11 years of the age? 11, is it now? Oh, yeah, so 37. 3037. Just to add to your other part of the question, which is around bringing selective restriction on access, we are planning to go ahead and, as has been stated in our Air Quality Action Plan for a number of years, to pursue a restriction on city centre access for non-electric and ultra-low emission vehicles. It would have to be a policy decision at a later date. It would actually have to be a change to the current stated policy aims to allow traditional hybrids through any of those restrictions. So it's potentially, yes, after 2028 you could have those vehicles restricted from operating right in the city centre. So I'd just like to clarify on that, either the council would need to change our policy and sort of backtrack on our air quality and climate commitments, or if we extend it today then those drivers would either not be allowed into the sort of various city centre or would need to purchase new vehicles then. That's correct, yeah. Thank you. Sorry, Jo, for clarification you're saying to purchase new vehicles in 2028? Yes, that's correct, yeah. OK. So we're talking about the impact of 14 vehicles, aren't we? [inaudible] Just to clarify, we are talking saloons at this moment in time. Yeah, so we're talking about 14 vehicles for two years, basically, aren't we? So there's 14 vehicles whose end of life will be up in the next two years, but they'll also be vehicles that will either have broken down or need to be replaced for other reasons, but at this moment in time our statistics are showing we've got 14 vehicles that will naturally come to their end in the next two years. So it's 14 vehicles of two years. That is tangible impact at this time. So that's what it all boils down to in the end, isn't it? Can I just clarify, that's 14 standard hybrid vehicles. There will be other petrol diesel vehicles that expire within that time limit as well. So we're talking about more than 14 vehicles, then? We're talking 14 standard hybrid vehicles, so a standard hybrid that expired between '24 and '26 and wouldn't be able to replace like for like. But there will be other petrol and diesel ones, which I believe, if you give me a minute, is in the table of findings. Yeah, OK. So it's quite complex all this, isn't it? So I guess you're talking outside of that 14 vehicles, I guess you're talking about standard diesel or petrol vehicles anyway. So I'm just sort of trying to get a handle on here that if we kept to the recommendations that are on here, those vehicles that we've not discussed that are not inside that 14 and that do have petrol or diesel propulsion at this time, would, when their life comes to an end, if it comes to an end within inside that two years, if we didn't extend it, they would have to get a purchase a vehicle that reaches this emission standard. But if we did extend it by two years, they would not have to do that and could possibly buy a standard hybrid vehicle, which they would have until around about 2037 ish. Is that about it? Yes, that's correct. And there's there's nine other. Hackney carriage vehicles on wheelchair accessible vehicles or petrol or diesel that would expire in that time and ten private hire vehicles that are petrol or diesel. So an extra 19 vehicles that aren't wheelchair accessible vehicles. So we're now talking about an impact on 33 vehicles, not 14. In total, yes. So 14 hybrid vehicles and 19 petrol or diesel vehicles. OK, that presents a slightly different picture. I thought you might wish to ask a question. Thank you. Yeah, just to get out of what Councillor Moore was saying, I wasn't aware that we had plans to restrict the access to the city centre. Could someone just very briefly summarise that for me, please? Please. The city centre is already restricted, so it would be using the same bus gates, but just only electric or low ultra low emission vehicles being. So, so no extra restrictions, just the top and not the types of vehicles. So, for example, it buses and taxis and obviously emergency vehicles. So that wouldn't change. There's no new. And obviously it's not all gone through. But that that's been the long term plan. It would just. And that was part of the plan in 2018 was that our taxis, yes, we were being putting these restrictions on our taxi drivers. But by then, only electric or ultra low being able to get through those gates. That would also mean that only our licensed taxis or people who came to their standard would be able to drop off and pick up in the city centre. So, so it balances out the challenges by pushing that onto onto other taxi firms too. OK, so we're just talking about the very, very city centre, right, in those gates. OK, thanks. Yes. Where the current bus gates are already, that have been in long before I was a councillor. Just put the microphone on, please. Thank you. I'm familiar with the bus gate on Silver Street. Are you talking about the bus gate on top of Regent Street as well? And where we're from, I apologize for my ignorance on this, but where are the bus gates? And so we can understand what the options are for taxi drivers to operate and effectively drop people off at the edge of the bus gate. Well, it's the city core that as a as a driver, if you're not a bus driver or a taxi driver that you can't drive into, so there's the one on Regent Street, Silver Street, there's St John's, Bridge Street. Sorry, I think I think there are there are several. So there's one on Jesus Lane as well. There's one on the road between Christ pieces and the Grafton centre. So it's really the historic core of the city that's locked into buses and taxis, emergency vehicles and deliveries only. Thank you. Yeah. So it is only the historic core, but obviously it would give a bonus, a benefit to Cambridge city license taxis who have had to fulfill these more strict criteria. But then there would be they would be the only ones that could access that area unless other taxi firms followed suit. So it sort of levels the playing field. Can I ask you if that is a decision that's been made already voted on by committee. It was fairly new to me. No, and obviously we're not the highways authority. It is in conjunction. It's part of the city access and it's in our air quality strategy 2024 to 2028. OK, thank you. And it was part of our plans in 2018, and that was it ran alongside the this taxi licensing policy. Obviously, along the way, they've been different plans for managing congestion and air quality in Cambridge. And so we're having to be flexible as those plans change. But the the idea still stands that we don't just want to sort of penalise our Cambridge city license taxis by giving strict restrictions on them. They're also it's important that there's a. There's a benefit as well. Thank you. I do remember these discussions taking place, but I didn't remember any decision being made. So it hasn't actually been made. That's why I don't remember it. In response to Councillor PICS earlier question to give you the current makeup of our fleet as of today. So the licensed vehicles, we have 381 vehicles licensed by Cambridge City Council. 108 of them are standard hybrids, 59 are fully electric, 31 are the plug in ultra low vehicles. 31 and that leaves 183 that are currently diesel or petrol. Do you know how many wheelchair? I don't. I can find that out. Are there any other questions for you? I think my proposal was would be that we try and determine whether it is what the profitability of running a taxi is in Cambridge. And yet we're not fully clear as to whether it's worth running a taxi here, I'm being on the, on the license by Cambridge. Or whether the answer is just bail out and go to South Cams or Wolverhampton. Do we have that information? No, we don't hold that information. We're here as a regulator. We're here to ensure that the rules are followed. And the policies are met and the legal requirements are met. That would be a business decision by any business who would wish to work out what the profitability of their business is. Not just taxis but all the businesses in the city that is not a responsibility of the council. Yes, but if we're going down a policy track, which makes it not viable to run a taxi, then we're just going to end up with our ranks empty. Just to remind councilors that it's only Cambridge City licensed Hackney cabs that can go on our taxi ranks. Nobody else can pick up that people are shaking their heads. But that's that legally, if there's evidence of others doing that, then we would like to know and we, the Environmental Health and Licensing team will and do take action on that. And that was the point coming back to the question of the livery, is to make it really clear to residents which taxis can and should be hailed in the street or can be picked up in the taxi rank because it's only the ones that are Hackney cabs licensed by Cambridge City Council. I'm still looking for one number, which is the wheelchair accessible, which makes sense of all the other numbers that Luke gave. Yeah, we have 125 wheelchair accessible vehicles currently licensed. To interpret that, then I should really assume that 125 of the 183 diesel or petrol. So, in fact, we have about 60 odd non wheelchair accessible diesel and petrol. Would the members find it beneficial to have a 10 minute break, get their head around all these figures before voting or are we ready to rock? Okay, that's fine. There's a lot of figures, there are lots of things to stake into consideration, so it's worth saying that. Before we go to that, Councillor awhile indicated to speak a little late, a little earlier on, and this is an important issue, and I don't mind being flexible at these meetings at all. So what I'd like to do is, Councillor Saini, if you'd like to have the last word before voting for your colleagues, as long as if you're representing their general view, as a councillor and not a taxi driver, that's the most important thing to say. So if you wish to speak again on their behalf, you're doing so as a city councillor, you'll be clear on that? Okay, thank you very much. Where do you go? Thank you very much. Yes, as we're talking about the amount of charging points, the number of charging points, I think everyone observed all the officers or councillors. So it's more than enough at the moment, but the quality, the quality is not usable, not a single one. As our officer explained, my vehicle may not have enough capacity, it's only taking 12 kilowatt an hour, but unfortunately it is not real. My vehicle can capacity 150 kilowatt voltage where I can charge in wetros they have 250 kilowatt and Tesla they have up to 250 kilowatt, but our Sciorco, which is 100 - Can I just remind you, you're speaking as a councillor, not as a taxi driver. What you're giving us is a report on your taxi and your business as a taxi driver. So what we'd like to hear is your reflection of your colleagues behind you, of their perspective of where we are now, rather than your personal opinions as a taxi driver. Is that okay? Yeah, that's okay. Okay, thank you very much. But I want the council to look at this, the charging point, their quality and the price, and we need to improve our voltage up to 250 kilowatt an hour, but unfortunately I am getting only 12 kilowatt an hour, it is not useful. If you look around and you see all the time, they're empty, otherwise somebody plug in and go for shopping, that's the reality. Otherwise no one plug in there to use their vehicle to use as a taxi, because it's so slow and expensive. Is it BP or if you compare to other market Tesla, BP and home charging, they must be better and cheaper. So we need to improve our charging quality circle, this is up to 50, but reality comes 12 kilowatt. It is not a repeat charge, but the charging money is more than repeat charge. And especially the people living in the block building and flat, they have no charging facility at home. And when you pressure them to become an electric vehicle, how they use their vehicle charging, and this long time, it is not realistic. And I hope if we can minimize our carrying our air quality and our taxi trade, we should be some minimize point to improve our taxi service, keep as a standard and keep as a comparative with the other council. Because if we only enforce some law or policy, only few minority taxi driver, only 345 taxi driver, but this Cambridge city operate almost more than 200 taxi. But they're not operated by our law and policy. They come from Alhamtom, they come from South Cam. So it is the reality of the pollution level, it is the reality of the EV charging and you councilor, you voted, I am not in the committee member and it will be not anything my own interest directly because I am already using EV is before the laws in force. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you for that last clarification point. That was important. Thank you for that. Okay, if we're ready to go, then all those in favor of the recommendations on page 10 at 2.1, there are three sections to that. We can either take those individually or on block, whatever is your wish. Everybody all together. Okay, in that case, those people, those members in favor of those recommendations, please show. Six chair. And those against. One chair. And so we have no sentence that concludes today's meeting in that case. Thank you so much everyone.

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