Transcript

Transcript

Good morning and welcome to this meeting of the climate change committee. This is the first meeting of the new municipal year and as such we've had a few changes to the committee since the last time it met. I would like to welcome to the committee Councillor Alport, Councillor Buckley, Councillor Collett, Councillor Ron Davies, Councillor Fran Lister and Councillor Simon Jones and also take the moment to pay tribute to those Councillors who previously served on this committee and whose terms have now ended for their contributions to the work of the committee. Councillor Ian Hodge, Councillor Jason Shellcross, Councillor Dan Rose, Sam Swash, Gillian Buckley and Caroline Preece. We do have apologies from Councillor Mel Buckley, Councillor Simon Jones, Councillor Ron Davies and Councillor Steve Coppell. Councillor Madison is substituting for Councillor Buckley, Councillor McEwen for Councillor Jones and Councillor Carvery for Councillor Davies and we're expecting Councillor Banks for Councillor Coppell later on in the meeting. Thank you to those who've agreed to serve as substitutes for this meeting. Does anybody else have, or we'll move to the appointment of Vice Chair before we have apologies. So does anybody wish to nominate a Councillor to serve as Vice Chair of the Climate Committee for the forthcoming municipal year? If you can use the raise hand function to propose names. I can't find it. It is there, but Councillor Gee, if you want to go ahead. Go to the three dots, Chrissie, click onto the three dots. I'm on there, don't worry, I'd like to nominate Alan Marshall. Okay, do we have a seconder for Councillor Marshall? Councillor Eastwood, are you seconding Councillor Marshall? Brilliant, okay. Does anybody else wish to propose any other names for Vice Chair of the Committee for this municipal year? In the absence of any other nominations, we'll move to an affirmative vote on Councillor Marshall. All those in favour of Councillor Marshall being appointed Vice Chair for the forthcoming municipal year, any opposition? Anyone against? And any abstentions? That's carried. Congratulations, Councillor Marshall. Thank you for your work over the previous year as Vice Chair, and I'm sure you'll be glad to serve again for the forthcoming year. Yes, thank you very much, Chair, and everybody else. Moving on then to apologies. Do we have any other apologies besides those that I've already listed? No Councillors are indicating. Declarations of interest. Does any Councillor have any declarations of interest to make in respect of any item on today's agenda? Again, please use the raise hand function if you do. Nobody's indicating. The minutes of the previous meeting, these are in the agenda pack. Could I please start by asking for a proposer and seconder for the minutes? I can see Councillor Marshall's indicating to propose. Do I have a seconder for those minutes? I will second them in the absence of anybody else. Does anybody have any amendments they wish to make to the minutes? Any corrections? Councillor Healy? Thank you, Chair. Unfortunately, I had to send apologies to the last meeting, but I have viewed the meeting online, and I'm just drawing attention to the minutes on page four for extreme heat. Unfortunately, I can confirm that they are an accurate record. And I say unfortunately, because they didn't deal with the issue of extreme heat. If you look at the minutes, they're actually talking about flooding and potholes, and the actual presentation itself was not about extreme heat, but about contingency planning in its generic form. Now, this is a matter of regret. Extreme heat is a serious problem. We have learnt of the sad death of the iconic figure Michael Moseley, and also 1300 people on their way to the Hajimeka have died this year because of extreme heat. I submitted to you, Chair, a request that I introduce on the agenda, an item on extreme heat, and it's not there. Is there a particular reason for that? The proposal is to add it to the forward work programme at this meeting for the next one. Okay, well, I will propose that at the appropriate time. Thank you, Councillor Healy. But yes, we'd certainly be glad if there's something that you as cabinet member wish to bring back to this committee. I'm sure it's something the committee would wish to revisit. Does anybody else have anything else on the minutes they wish to say before we move to a vote on their approval? Nobody else indicating. In that case, can I take a vote in favour of adopting the minutes as a correct record? All those in favour, please show. Anybody against? And any abstentions? Thank you. Those minutes are adopted as a correct record. The action tracking report, item number five. This is a new item to this committee, and I'm sure the committee will regard it as very well received. There are, I think, three items on the action tracking report from the previous meeting. As of the time of publication of this, I don't think we had any feedback on any of those. I don't know whether officers are in a position to advise whether any of those actions have since been completed since publication of the agenda. There should have been a response circulated. I think it's the last item. I know that the responses were sent on to committee services, so hopefully that was circulated to committee after the meeting. Thank you. Mr Goodrum? Thank you, chair. The purpose of putting this on today was to obviously introduce a design for committee to keep a track on the items, and Alex Ellis is correct that the circulation for the feedback from the third item on the action tracker was circulated subsequently. I think it was by myself, actually. But this report is really a template to show what it would look like, and then moving forward it would be populated with any actions taken. Subsequent meetings will note in actions taken what has been done. It will be greyed out so it's clear that it's been actioned or greened so it clearly stands out as complete. Any open ones will stay as open to be monitored accordingly, and the committee can then decide if they're taking too long or what actions to take subsequently. It's really just to introduce a report to committee, so if committee are familiar with it, members are probably familiar from other committees because it's usually an item that's on our scrutiny committee meetings, but it's something we are trying to keep a measure on and an eye on for all committees so that nothing gets lost, so it's just really to give that background, chair. Thank you very much. Chief Officer, planning any environment, I think, was indicating, but now not. Is there anything you wish to say, Mr Ferrer? I was just querying whether we'd had the contact details for NRW and Welsh Water. If you remember, the manager of the regional service said that she would provide them. I can't remember seeing them, but Alex, have you seen them, or Steve? No, I haven't seen them. No, but again, Mr Ferrer, I'll take that as make sure that these actions do get followed through so that they're here now, so the public record and the record for the committee, the committee can keep a track on those, so next meeting we should see some updates and population for this to move it forward, and any of the new actions from this meeting will be included as well, so thanks. Thank you very much. Right, in light of officer advice received, does any member of the committee wish to propose the recommendations on this issue? The committee notes the progress which is being made. Do I have a proposer for that? Councillor Gee and a seconder, Councillor Marshall. Thank you very much. Does anybody wish to speak on the action tracking? Nobody's indicating? In that case, we'll move to a vote. Those in favour of adopting the recommendations as proposed by Councillor Gee and seconded by Councillor Marshall, please show. Any against? And any abstentions? Thank you, that's carried. Item 6 on the agenda, the internal audit report, findings and actions. This is to acknowledge the outcome of the recent internal audit of climate change, environmental sustainability and ESG, and approve the actions to address the audit findings. The recommendations for this are on page 15 and 16 of the agenda pack. Can I start by asking for a proposer and seconder for the recommendations, please? Councillor Marshall to pose and a seconder. I will second in the absence of anybody else. So I think it's probably best if Chief Officer, Planning Environment and Economy, perhaps wishes to speak to introduce this item. Just a brief introduction and then I'll hand over to Alex. This internal audit was commissioned within the last 12 months. It's really important that the committee is aware of the findings of that audit and the recommendations within it, because they are critical to the delivery of our strategy, and obviously this committee is what sole responsibility is the delivery of the climate change strategy. So without further talk, I'll hand over to Alex to take you through the report. Thank you. Thank you very much. So this audit was part of the agreed internal audit plan for 21/22, and unfortunately bled over into the 23/24 financial year. The purpose of the audit was to assess a number of risks, as has been mentioned around the management of climate change, environmental sustainability, and ESG within the council. And that was to provide a level of assurance in terms of risk to the council. The audit identified a number of areas which were managed well. The adopters strategy, which sets out the council's key aims to achieve net zero carbon by 2030. The work that we've carried out in calculating our baseline figures with reductions based on the internal quality control process that oversees the accuracy of that data collection process, and the submissions that we make to Welsh Government each year. And we were actually part of the piloting of that methodology with Welsh Government. The themed officer working groups, which focus on those individual themed action plans within the strategy. The annual programme progress reports that are approved by both the scrutiny and cabinet, and the transparency of information communication engagement with the public around our climate change initiatives. And we've done a lot of work over the last 12 months, especially in engaging with the public on the work that we're doing and how we can improve the targets around climate change for the wider county. The audit also identified a number of areas for further improvement. And I just go through those areas and the work that we've done and the management actions that have been agreed to address those findings. So the first was around ineffective programme management controls. And as you'll hopefully be aware, we are going through a climate change strategy review this year, which will address some of the areas that were highlighted within the audit. The review will give us an opportunity to apply learnings from the last two years of strategy delivery. So we now have real data in terms of the actions that we've been able to fulfil and what the residual carbon reductions were associated with those actions. So having that real data will help us to project the impact of further actions much more accurately. We also have five years of carbon data now, and the methodology in collecting that data has improved year on year. So that will give us a much better idea of realistic projections and targets to that 2030 aim. In terms of the uncosted action plan, as you've already seen within the Audit Wales report that was presented to you in the last committee meeting, there are areas that we've looked at to try and address parts of the plan that are uncosted. We've been able to provide high level costings to some of the more tangible assets of the council, for example, decarbonising our building assets and decarbonising our fleet vehicles. But there are areas of decarbonisation that are just too difficult to put a cost to, for example, changing people's behaviour and decarbonising procurement are very difficult to be able to quantify in terms of cost. There is a tool which I described when presenting the Audit Wales report, which Welsh Local Government Association are working with local partnerships to develop, and this tool will assist with carbon action costing and that will be utilised by the public sector so that we're all using a similar tool and providing a more consistent response in terms of costing. The next finding was around an inadequate investment strategy and since the audit findings stage, the finance team have provided internal audit with some more detailed information around green investments and the treasury management strategy for 25/26 will include reference to green finance and that will be presented for approval to the governance and audit committee. The next finding was around lack of member oversight and challenge and the audit report, there was an agreed action that the audit report would be presented to climate change committee, which is what we're here doing today, and the discussion would take place in relation to any changes required to address the risks identified in that finding. Following this meeting and the request of the leader of the council at AGM in May, a full review of the terms of reference for climate change committee has been requested to be completed and that's to ensure that the committee is overseeing the program as its key priority. Also in ensuring that the committee are regularly appraised and given the opportunity to oversee and scrutinize the program progress, it's been recommended to have a standing item on the committee agenda in terms of program progress and that gives us the opportunity to look at areas that we're not performing or we're not progressing in the same way that we need to, to be able to achieve that aim and look at the issues that we're having in doing that. So the next finding was ineffective risk management and there are a number of risks that are within the corporate risk register around the carbon reduction program, but the order identified that there were gaps in project level risks. So we've been working with the Office of Working Groups to identify those project level risks and linking those into the corporate risk register so that there's a much more realistic representation of the level of risk in terms of achieving our aims. We're also looking at extending the in-phase program which we currently use to monitor the council plan and the corporate risk register so that the updating of actions and the updating of risks is carried out periodically through a digital forum rather than a much more manual process of chasing officers for updates on actions. The last one was in terms of an unclear identification of other council strategies or decisions impacting the climate change strategy and again there's a number of areas that we're looking to address this risk. The capital business case template which we have adapted to consider carbon environmental impacts and there's a piece of work that we need to carry out to work with officers who complete that template to make sure that they are informed and understand how to complete the new version of the template. We've also been working with the University of Manchester on the updated integrated impact assessment which has been rolled out and looking at the process around that to ensure it's used correctly. And then we've also been identifying all of the council-wide strategies and plans within each portfolio so that we can ensure that when those are ready for review they incorporate the carbon impacts within those strategies so it's all integrated and it's very clear that carbon is integrated into council decision making. In terms of risk management the report came out as a number so it's important that these findings are addressed to minimise the risk to the council and I'm happy to take any questions. Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate this item is down as collected responsibility but as the cabinet member whose area this mostly falls into if you wish to give cabinet's perspective on this at this stage then feel free and equally if anybody asks any questions of the cabinet member you'll be welcome to come in to address those subsequently. So Councillor Healy the floor is yours. Thank you very much. I think this is a very important and informative report and I thank the Chief Officer and Alex for outlining the risks which are a concern here. I'd particularly like to just emphasise a couple of points that emerge. One is the need really for cross portfolio buy-in with regard to the whole business of reducing carbon emissions across the whole council and that everyone on the council recognises that it is not just the job of the climate change team in order to work towards this objective of being net zero by 2030 but the second key point I think which is pertinent to this committee particularly relevant is because we are a new this is a new committee is that there is it within the report some criticism of the failure of this committee to actually have done its job in the past in scrutinising what was happening with regard to our mission towards net zero and I think we need to ensure in the future that the committee does have a much sharper focus on moving towards that process so I would support moving towards that and ensuring that people are on task as far as that is concerned in the future because obviously it's a challenging job and we do have later on in the agenda a very well developed climate change strategy review plan which I don't want to pre-empt that but it is quite clear that there are immense challenges ahead immense challenges ahead so I think we need to just keep a focus as far as that is concerned thank you. Thank you very much Councillor Healy. Do any members of the committee wish to speak on this item raise any points or table any amendments? If so please use the raise hand function Councillor Marshall Thank you just got a few questions for Alex really the audit report makes it sound like we're not making much progress that was a couple of years ago are there financial constraints affecting project delivery staff resources that sort of thing my understanding is that the climate change team is quite small is there intended to be increased number of staff Alex is the overall program manager and my experience of program managers is that they have multiple project managers working on different projects is there going to be an increase in project managers as well and next thing is should the climate change meetings be held monthly instead of every two months to reflect the emergency that we're facing thank you. Alex or rather I will get ticked off by standards if I don't use your full title program manager climate change and carbon reduction thank you Councillor Marshall in terms of financial constraints I mean you'll be very familiar with the position of the council and and the public sector in general if I if I had an infinite amount of money then yes I would love to have a team below me that is able to really accelerate the work that we need to do and pay for the work that we need to do unfortunately we are experiencing financial constraints and that that does apply to climate change ambition also we're in a unique position that a number of the actions within the action plan give us the opportunity to save energy which in turn saves energy costs and also generate income through renewable energy generation ev charging facilities so there are opportunities within the action plan to offset some of the spend that we have to make to be able to achieve those things there are still a number of external grants that we are able to utilize and we have done for a number of years some of those from the government but also from other sources and I know that the committee's asked at the previous meeting for an item on the forward work program in terms of how projects have been funded in the past and how we can fund them in the future so that might answer that query for you Councillor Marshall but yes there's certainly financial constraints it is a small team it's myself a project officer an apprentice but as has already been described the task to decarbonize the the council's services and operations is the responsibility of the whole council not just the climate change team so while we do manage some of those projects ourselves they are largely managed by other officers across the council in terms of the frequency of meetings that's perhaps something that we could put forward within the review of the terms of reference and that will be an item on the the next committee agenda so if you do feel that the meeting should be more frequently then perhaps put that forward personally I think making the meetings more regular would would create more of a burden on myself being able to prepare the reports on a monthly basis pulling me away from overseeing the program delivery but it's something that you know I can bear in mind if the the committee wish for them to be more frequent or or less frequent so I hope that answers your question thank you yes thank you Councillor Councillor Marshall I will give you the chance to come back in in a second if you would like but can I go first to the democratic services manager to address the point about frequency of meetings yes thank you chair what I will say is that the the schedule of meetings has now been agreed by full council so to change it now or to look at change it now is going to create a significant headache for myself and my team to a bit more meetings in and it would probably to go back to full council for them to ratify anyway so although it would possibly be something the committee may wish to see in the future it's something we need to look at carefully to make sure that we don't crowd or add to the crowded schedule meetings already so it's something we can certainly look at but it's something we need to be mindful that there are a lot of demands like across the schedule already and it has been agreed quite recently at full for council so at the AGM so it's just to bear that in mind really if we are looking at any different or changes to scheduling thank you Councillor Healy were you wishing to raise a related point or to answer one of Councillor Marshall's questions both I think if that's all right if I may thank you chair Councillor Marshall asked about the question about the small nature of the team for climate change and I do understand that we have an unfulfilled poster I'm not sure if it is the climate change team but an energy engineer which I take to be very very important in helping us to move towards net zero by the the offsetting of renewables and so forth and I know that we're working towards that I'm just wondering if Alex could confirm that we are sort of working to what we are working towards that and just how important that role is is it something somebody else on the council can do or is it is it important is it an important role for the task in hand and secondly on the point about more frequent meetings I think our best bet really is to let Alex get on with the job basically and not have her doing a whole load more reports and all the actions that come from meetings because that could be a diversion from her task my view at any rate thank you okay thank you Councillor Healy Councillor Marshall do you have any supplementary wish to speak further no I'm happy with the answers thank you very much thank you in respect of frequency of meetings as Democratic Services Manager rightly points out it's a matter for council I would suggest that if the committee wishes to take this forward and I don't know what the view of the committee is there's a couple of options the committee could choose to take it forward with a review with a view to implementing this in future years so beyond this municipal year for which the schedule of meetings are published if the committee wish to make recommendations on that basis to full council it could it could look to increase the frequency within this year as Democratic Services Manager has pointed out obviously there's a few issues with that or if any member wishes to propose this to full council out with a committee recommendation then any member is of course able to do that through the notice of motions process if anybody wishes to make a recommendation or propose that this committee makes a recommendation to full council I would suggest that it's better that that comes back to this committee at its next meeting submitted through the notice of motions process to this committee such that there can be a more detailed report on resource implications if that's something any member of this committee wishes to take forward obviously that's my suggestion if anybody does feel very strongly that this needs addressing at this meeting it is open to any member of the committee to table an amendment to the recommendations today to that effect I don't know whether anybody does want to or if anybody wishes to speak further on this report at all but if I do have any more speakers I'd be grateful if you could indicate using the raise hand function I'm not seeing anybody else if I can briefly address a couple of the issues within the internal audit report I on risk for this is reporting to the public around climate change and ESG priorities is not open and transparent and not based on robust and accurate data I think it's fair to say and it's indeed an issue that this committee's brought up in the past that our climate strategy is somewhat divorced from our ambitions and that's not an issue unique to flinch county council I think it's common across the public sector and the wider economy it is important to remember that whilst we have an ambition to get to net zero by 2030 our plan is to follow the emissions reduction pathway set out in our climate change and carbon reduction strategy which does not reach net zero and is quite a way off net zero so we are looking to reduce emissions but due to financial implications as Councillor Marshall has already mentioned that's not something that we are at present in a position to plan on the basis of doing I do think it's important that our communications regarding climate change in net zero do make clear the distinction between our ambition and our plan in respect of this and that's obviously an issue that's being touched on by the audit report secondly the issues around this committee I don't intend to repeat at length Councillor Healy's points but I think they're valid this committee hasn't always been the best forum for addressing this I don't think any member would dispute that there are obviously recommendations that this committee can and I believe should take forward on this in future there is I think a wider issue though that won't be captured solely by a review of this committee's terms of reference which is that this committee is not an overview and scrutiny committee and overview and scrutiny committees have certain powers and responsibilities that this committee doesn't in terms of responsibility for the carbon reduction strategy at an overview and scrutiny level it is my view more generally and in response to this audit report that the overview and scrutiny committee process for the carbon reduction strategy is confused to the extent that there is scrutiny of it it nests under the environment OSC but a lot of the steps that we're talking about taking whether on procurement whether on investment strategy whether in relation to changing ways of working buildings and so on a lot of what we're actually talking about sits under the corporate resources overview and scrutiny committee in terms of the substantive issues that we need to address so I think as part of any review of our terms of reference a concurrent review making setting out clear lines of accountability in relation to overview and scrutiny committees is probably helpful on this going forwards because at the moment whilst this committee can augment that provided by overview and scrutiny committees that obviously have a wider remit in this committee we aren't a substitute for that process so I suspect that it would be quite useful to make specific reference to this to further strengthen governance and accountability in respect of overview and scrutiny committee terms of reference I would propose an amendment to recommendation 2 that this committee recommends that a review of corporate resources and environment and economy overview and scrutiny committees terms of reference in respect of the climate change and carbon reduction strategy is also carried out. Councillor Marshall is the proposal of the motion are you happy to accept that amendment? Yes I am. Right. In that case do I have any other speakers? I'm not seeing anybody. In that case I will move to the vote and all those in favour of the recommendations as drafted with that amendment please show. And any against? And any abstentions? That's carried thank you very much. The next item is the climate change strategy review plan. This commences on page 37 of your agenda pack. This is to discuss and approve the proposed plan for reviewing the climate change strategy during 24/25. Obviously the last item is pertinent to this. Can I start by asking for a mover for that? Does anybody wish to move this item? Councillor Marshall you're doing a sterling job today Councillor Marshall at moving things. Can I have a seconder please? Councillor Gee thank you very much. If the programme manager climate change and carbon reduction wishes to briefly introduce the item and then we'll move to members' contributions. Thank you chair. So you can see from this draft plan of the review of the climate change strategy we've tried to include a variety of both public and internal engagements and that's to ensure that the people of Flintshire are feeding into and shaping the review strategy documents. We've already commenced a couple of the activities internally. We have scheduled a number of public events over the summer period where we'll be engaging with the public. Our aim is to have a draft version of the reviewed strategy before the end of this financial year in March 2025 but there is an opportunity for bleed into the final revision being adopted. I'd welcome any feedback from the committee in terms of the level of engagement that we try to approach in this plan and whether you feel that there are areas that we could extend on to ensure that we do have that very rounded strategy which really incorporates the wider county of Flintshire as well as our own emissions. Thank you. Do any of the committee members wish to speak on this? I will briefly draw members' attention to, this is on page 37 of the Agenda Pack first page of this item, the 11th of July, the elected members workshop. I would encourage members to engage with other members of their political groups and encourage as broad a turnout of that as possible. It's a chance for people who aren't members of this committee to get involved with the process and hopefully will be quite accessible for those who haven't been dealing with this for quite some time. I appreciate we've had quite a lot of churn on this committee in the new municipal year. A number of members will be getting to grips with this for the first time. That will be, I think, a very useful opportunity for members to engage with the issue and better understand where we presently are in respect of the work being undertaken on this. Do any other members of the committee wish to speak? Councillor Healy, cabinet member? Thank you, Chair. Sorry, can you just confirm, I'm sure it's just the case in fact, that's why I'm saying it, that the meeting of the 11th is an all member one, open to all members, and if so, you're nodding, and if so, I think we could really try and push for attendance as far as other members are concerned, really, so that we get as much buy-in as far as climate change and addressing climate change from the Council as a whole as we can. Thank you. Excellent point well made, Councillor Healy. Does anybody else wish to speak on this item? No, in which case, I will move to a vote on the motion, which is to discuss and approve the proposed plan for reviewing the climate change strategy during 2024/25. All those in favour, please show. Any against? And any abstentions? That's carried, thank you very much. The next item, item number eight, is the draft Flincher County local area energy plan to review and provide feedback on the draft local area energy plan for Flincher County, developed by Arup and Carbon Trust. Now, in respect of this, members will find it on page 41 of the agenda pack. We don't have a motion as such, so I'm going to move straight to discussions, unless anybody wishes to raise a point of order about that. This is obviously quite a lengthy document. I'm sure members will have had a chance to read it. There's also been a number of workshops that members have had the chance to attend as well on this issue, so it's quite possible that members will have raised issues earlier in the process. I don't know if any member has any comments or feedback on this that they wish to raise at this point. If the cabinet member wishes to introduce this and give cabinets perspective, that would be very well received, I think. Thank you, thank you, chair. I can't say just from the cabinet perspective, it's from my perspective, and the details of this are not being discussed by the cabinet as a whole, but I think it's a very comprehensive document, and initially I had been a little worried that what was happening here was a kind of template that was just going to be imposed upon us without recognition of the local significance of things, but it's proved to be not the case. In fact, it is zooming in very much on the local situation. I'm not sure if members can look at page 142 in particular, but I think there's something that is worth flagging up there that is of local interest to particular wards, and maybe Alex will correct me if I'm mistaken here, but this is a suggestion that there could be pilot projects for renewable energy projects in various parts of our county, and it does itemise the what from a sort of geographical point of view, it seems to be the most favourable pilot to have. I think it was possibly Councillor Marshall at an early stage and myself at a later stage were flagging up geothermal energy as an option. I don't know, am I right, Councillor Marshall? You could perhaps, you mentioned it, and I think one of the reasons for doing this was because it's been something that's been given a good go in other countries where there wasn't quite the same, they weren't as well endowed with fossil fuels, and therefore really turned towards geothermal energy, and it's not something that's taken off big time in this country, I think I'm right in that respect, so it's easily overlooked. Now, the report itself does not go a bomb on this particular option, but I'm just wondering if on the map that is on 142, where it has seen a point of air colliery, and it has a heat pump there, presumably, I'm assuming that that is making use of geothermal energy, I don't know that proposal, I don't know. Similarly, there is one at Craigvar, which is not noted for being a colliery site, but for excavation of limestone, and maybe that has created a geological situation where it's conducive to that, I don't know. I'm just speculating, I'm just interested. But I draw people's attention to this, because what is being put forward may have an impact on their ward, and it may be necessary for us to smooth it over. Where, for example, in Buckley, are they planning on putting a large number of solar panels, presumably Buckley Common, I don't know. Would that be contentious? I'm on the side of solar panels, I've got 22 on my roof, but I think we have to smooth it over with our residents, as it were. In Kaiguli, they're putting a proposal to pilot a large number of solar panels there. I'm assuming it's on the top of Hope Mountain. I don't know, I doubt if it's Kaiguli Castle, but I don't know. But once again, you will get, dare I use the word, the nimbys who say they don't want it where they live. And so there is an issue here that I think we could just flag up, if this does become a reality, it's just a piece of paper at the moment. But if it comes to reality, there may be a public relations issue. I don't know, I'm glad Alex has got a hand up. She corrected me of my misconceptions. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Healy. I'm going to first offer Councillor Marshall right of reply, if he wishes, given that he was mentioned by Councillor Healy. Is there anything that you wish to reply to there, Councillor Marshall? Thank you, Chair. I agree with what you're saying that we did discuss geothermal energy based on my ward is in Triton. So we've got coal mines nearby, which, you know, coal used to release energy quickly, high temperatures and quickly. But now we're using geothermal, you can access the water stored in the mines and release energy slowly, which is the way things are going now with lower temperatures to provide heat over an extended time. In the table on page 94, I think about the scenario analysis, there's different sorts of inputs and outputs. I've come across something that's being built by a Swiss company in China and America, which is gravity storage, which they call them gravity batteries where available energy is used for lifting huge concrete blocks up into the storage area. And then when there's a need for power, they drop them down again to generate electricity. These are sort of things that could go into partially used quarries, for example. So if you've got a big hole there, you can use some of the quarry materials to fill these big trucks up. So it's all local. I'm just wondering if there's any thought being put to that type of technology. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Marshall. Councillor Healy, could I ask you to mute your microphone just to prevent any background noise. Just for the ease of reference of any members of the public following along online, a couple of references have been made to page numbers here, which refer to those in the document bundle for this. If you're opening the individual document of the local area energy plan, then page 142 referred to by Councillor Healy with the map on proposed energy options is at page 102 of the local area energy plan. And Councillor Marshall referred to the table on page 94, which is on page 54 of the local area energy plan. So if anybody is following along on the live stream, then hopefully that might resolve some confusion about where documents are. In respect of some of the suggestions made, in the local development plan for Flintshire, a number of sites were allocated as suitable for future development of solar photovoltaic energy solar panels, including quite a number in the Buckley area, as illustrated on the map on page 142 or 102, depending on which version you're looking at, as in the Buckley area that which Councillor Healy was making reference to. So that my understanding is that that indicated in this document as being within the Buckley area wouldn't be on Buckley common or common land or anything. This is areas identified as suitable within the local development plan, which are generally out of the way agricultural areas. So hopefully that might assist Councillor Healy. If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to send references to the LDP maps after the meeting, as I'm sure the chief officer planning would be happy to assist with any queries too. And as regards gravity storage, I must confess myself to be something of a sceptic of this. Moving up and down the stuff in any degree of wind makes stacking it at the bottom very difficult, which makes storage at the bottom equally difficult. Obviously, when when large concrete blocks being lowered into place on construction sites, it's a slow, careful process with generally people to help navigate that. So it can be quite staffing intensive and quite expensive as a result. The versions demonstrated so far seem to only be demonstrated in very, very low wind conditions. So it might well be that pumped storage hydroelectricity achieves the same thing in storing energy as gravitational potential energy, but at a lower overall cost and somewhat more practical. Councillor Marshall. Yeah, thank you, Chad. The buildings I've seen are, well, the whole thing is enclosed in a big building and the two larger gravity storage buildings in China and the USA are 25 megawatts each. So everything's guided on rails and things like that, so the wind won't affect it. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Marshall. Do I have any other speakers on this issue? Program manager, climate change and carbon reduction. Sorry, I was just going to come back on Councillor Healy's point, which you did cover somewhat, Chair, thank you in terms of the LDP. The map that's on page 142 or 102 is also an energy proposition. So the map has been put together kind of bearing in mind the energy draw or consumption within those areas and where it's feasible in terms of the grid connections within those areas. So the grid capacity is quite an important barrier currently. If we could put renewable energy wherever we wanted, it would be fantastic. But unfortunately, the grid can't cope in certain areas with that additional resource draw. So the map actually highlights areas where there is still grid capacity available and where the Scottish Power Energy Networks investment plan is looking to focus investment in the grid. So that allows for feasible investment in those areas. But it does also kind of layer that map against the LDP. Just to close, if anyone does have, and I know that Councillor Marshall's attended some of the workshops, so thank you for that, Councillor Marshall. But if anyone does have any other comments, they want to highlight any anomalies or incorrect data or they feel there's areas that should have been included that haven't, if you can please get that feedback to me by next Friday. So that's the 5th of July. I can then feed that back to Arup and Carbon Trust, ready for the final document to come through our decision making process. Thank you. Thank you. Chief Officer, Planning, Environment and Econ. Thanks, just to pick up on the point raised about the local development plan maps and what they actually are. They are areas of search for renewable energy. So those are areas where there are less constraints, planning constraints on renewable energy. So it's not an allocation. It's not as specific as an allocation. There are just less constraints. And Alex also referred to what the local area energy plan's looking at, which are, if I'll say, infrastructure constraints, aren't they, in terms of links back to the network, etc. But as you said, Chair, if you want me to distribute information around those plans and the policies that support it, I'm more than happy to. Thank you. So I take it you're very happy to confirm now that nobody is proposing to put solar panels on Buckley Common? Correct. And the thing about the area of search is that it's still subject to a planning application. So we still have to go through that full process as well. And it would drop out, wouldn't it, at that stage in terms of its acceptability. Thank you very much. Councillor Marshall. Thank you, Chair. Just one more thing to add to Alex there about the upgrade of the distribution network. SPManWeb has a heat map, which shows you the areas of the transmission system which is under stress. So if you did a Google search for SPManWeb heat maps, you'll get it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Do I have any more speakers on this issue? Anybody else wishing to speak? In that case, I will move, or rather, we weren't having a vote on this because this was just a discussion. So there is no vote. So unless anybody else wishes to speak, no, we will move on to item number nine. This is the inquiries update for new members of this committee and for the benefit of anybody watching on the webcast. The committee is resolved to hold two inquiries, one into fossil fuel investments by the Clewett Pension Fund and one into flooding and flood resilience in the local area. Both of those inquiries have received written evidence from interested parties and members of the public. I will ensure that the submissions to the call for written evidence are circulated to all new members of the committee who have taken their seats since that was last circulated. The next stage is to hold oral hearings. The oral hearings for the flooding inquiry are now scheduled for Friday the 26th of July, commencing at 10am at County Hall. So there is a date for members diaries. Formal invitations will go out to those witnesses that the committee's previously indicated it wishes to hear from and in response to those who indicated their willingness in the written submissions part of the inquiry. So the proposal is for the flooding inquiry to hear from four separate groups of witnesses. First of all, the Flincher County Council officers on the work that the Council's doing on flood resilience in the area and the view of Flincher officers on the ability of infrastructure to cope moving forwards with the expected increase in heavy rain as a result of climate change. Secondly, from Natural Resources Wales and Welsh Water staff. Thirdly, given the committee's previously signalled intention to focus in particular on the Sandycroft-Mancott-Pentry area as a case study for issues in the wider County, given that many of the issues that have been flagged up, in fact, all of the issues that have been flagged up in relation to other areas are also reported in that area. It's easier to address specific concerns through that one case study rather than across the County as a whole. Obviously, any recommendations will apply to the rest of the County as well. So elected members from that area who've submitted evidence to us. And finally, elected representatives from the wider County. So invitations either have gone out or are imminently going out. So that's the inquiry process. In terms of how this will work, witnesses will be invited to give a short introductory statement and then there will be questions from members of the committee. Two witnesses, each committee member will have up to five minutes to ask any questions they wish to of each group of witnesses. Obviously, you're not obliged to use all of your time, but you have five minutes to ask questions and receive answers. The next stage after the oral evidence session will be to review the evidence the committee has received, both in written and oral form, and then write a report including any recommendations the committee wishes to make on. In the case of the flooding inquiry, which is moving ahead first, both the adequacy of infrastructure in Flincher to cope at present, the risks moving forward with climate change, where we feel responsibility should lie in respect of making any necessary improvements, and whether the current allocation of responsibility is working, in particular, in relation to funding and how we feel it's fairest to fund any necessary improvements, and also any steps that can be taken, which don't cost money and might improve resilience. So, that's a focus both on current issues and on expected future issues. So, any recommendations the committee wishes to make are for that stage. Hopefully that clarifies to you, members of the committee, where we are with these and what the next steps will be. If anybody does have any questions or wants any further information or wants to have a discussion before the oral hearings, feel free to give me a ring. I think everybody's got my phone number, but if not, it's available on the council website. Feel free to give me a ring. I'm more than happy to talk anybody through on a one-to-one basis. There is also the possibility if members of the committee want to look at holding a sort of informal consultation event with residents to drop in and speak to the committee about their experiences, that might be something the committee wishes to informally hold prior to that inquiry session, or it might be something that we want to hear the professional responses first before doing that. I don't know if any member of the committee has any thoughts on that. I have seen you, Councillor Healy. I'll bring you in once we've dealt with committee members. Councillor Gee. I think it'd be a good idea to meet informally before, so everyone knows exactly what to expect from the meeting, really, especially the new members. Councillor Mansell. Is it the 26th of June or 26th of July, please? Friday the 26th of July. Oh, great, cheers. Well, in that case, unless anybody thinks differently from Councillor Gee, Councillor Gee, if you're... Oh, sorry, Councillor Madison, are you indicating? Oh, sorry, it's the blurred background. It's blurring out what was in your hat. So, Councillor Gee, if you're happy to speak to me afterwards and we can look to arrange a venue for any residents who wish to meet the committee to drop in. I know we've previously held a meeting about flooding in the Broughton Community Centre, so that might be a good venue again to hear from residents, given that Broughton, Breton and Sandycroft are the most affected areas, and that's reasonably close to all of them. So, we will set a date for that if any committee members who are able to attend. Your attendance will no doubt be greatly received by residents, greatly received by residents. Councillor McEwen. Mr Correction, Chair, it was Broughton and Breton Institute, not Broughton and Breton Community Centre, where we held the meeting, if that was where you're wanting to hold it in future. Thank you very much. I stand corrected, Councillor McEwen. Thank you very much. Do any other members of the committee wish to speak on this? In that case, I'll bring in Councillor Healy. Thank you, Chair. On the 26th, are all councillors able to attend, are they invited to attend? Yes. Right. You've answered the query about residents. Are you chairing it, Chair? In which case, the best of British luck anyway. Okay. Thank you very much, Councillor Healy. Yes, I should clarify. The oral evidence sessions are open to the public. Any member of the public who wishes to attend and indeed any other councillor, not in the committee, is more than welcome to attend and listen to the evidence presented. Only committee members will be able to ask questions, but anybody is welcome to attend. Councillor Madison. Right, sorry, Steve can confirm this, but I'm pretty sure there's a holiday hunger meeting called for that morning, Friday the 26th, Steve. Ten o'clock. We're going to take up certain councillors. We can look to amend that, Councillor Madison. That was the only provisional date put in for the moment, so we can take a seat to change that. Right, right. Thanks very much, Steve. Do I have any other speakers on this issue? Oh, Councillor Mansell. Sorry, what time is this meeting? I'm busy writing things down and I've missed half a bit. What time is that meeting on the 26th of July? It starts at 10am. I would expect it would be concluded by one. Okie doke, thanks very much, Chair. One half one. Does anybody else wish to speak on this item? No, in which case, again, because there's no motion here, there's no need for a vote, so we'll move on to item 10, which is the forward work programme. Now, first of all, I'll need a proposal and a seconder for this from the committee. I'm happy to propose it. Do I have a seconder? Councillor Eastwood, thank you. I'm going to bring in Councillor Healy at this point, because he had earlier mentioned the extreme heat issue. Do you want to elaborate a little bit, Councillor Healy, on what you're suggesting should go on the forward work programme? Thank you very much. I'd like extreme heat to be on the forward work programme, as it was not really dealt with at all when it was on the programme before. I think full marks to whoever asked for it to be on the forward work programme, but I'm sorry to say that that last meeting did highlight that the Regional Emergency Planning Service is not really clued up about the detail of this. I'm not saying I'm anything an expert, but I've written, I've researched it, I've written a report on it. I would like to beef the report up, but I can certainly circulate the reports to members ahead of the meeting when we're discussing it, so that we do, people are appraised of it, and they can put in their own penny worth, because I'm not saying I've got the last word as for at all, but I do think we need to consider all of the implications of extreme heat for us, the services we do, and for our residents. Thank you. Thank you very much. I think the proposal is that that report be provided to committee services to go on the agenda for the next meeting, which would be the 26th of September, to enable the committee to discuss it, and to consider any recommendations that Councillor Healy's report makes. Councillor Eastwood, are you happy as the seconder to accept that onto the Board Work Programme, that you're nodding, fantastic? Does anybody else have anything they wish to add to the Board Work Programme at this point? Chief Officer, Planning, Environment and Economy. Yeah, thanks, Chair. Just to pick up on the earlier discussion about terms of reference, and also referencing the recommendation that, the resolution rather, that got expanded to pick up cross, didn't it? So we probably need to have a review of the terms of reference of this committee in reference to cross and scrutiny at the September meeting as well, I'd suggest. I think that's a wise idea. Again, Councillor Eastwood is the seconder, are you happy to

• yeah, brilliant. Does anybody else have anything else they wish to move for the Forward Work Programme? I'm not seeing anybody's hand. In that case, with those two amendments, can I please have a show of hands in favour of adopting the Forward Work Programme? And any against? And any abstentions? That's carried. Thank you very much. That concludes this meeting of the Climate Change Committee. I'd like to thank everybody for their contributions. And I look forward to seeing you at the next meeting of this committee. Thank you as well to those who have substituted. I hereby close the meeting.