Transcript

Transcript

a chair under the local government and elections Wales Act 2021 the chair must be a lay person and therefore I call for a nomination for chair from amongst the three lay people. Can I nominate Brian Harvey please? Thank you, is there a seconder for that? Thank you, Councillor Marshall. Are there any other nominations? Nope, and sorry, Councillor Parker. I happen to see Councillor Marshall first. I see that you are seconding that as well. Therefore, I will move to the vote. All those in favour, please of electing Brian Harvey. So that is clearly carried. Thank you. So Brian, you are elected. We need to do election of the vice chair, but I will just mention at this point, Chair, if I might, that we have a number of substitutes on the committee. People who were previously members and who are trained are standing in because we haven't yet been able to train the new members of the committee. Now, the committee has to agree to accept substitutes. As I said, they are all trained and in the case of some, they are the people who are being replaced. So they're staying on for an extra meeting, which is very good of them. Whilst we go through that transition to their replacement, is the committee happy to accept? We shall craft Alan Marshall and Councillor Ryan McEwen as subs on privacy policy. I don't see any objections, Chair. So we can deal with that. And I'll hand over to you, Chair, for the election of the vice. Thank you very much. So we come to item two on the agenda, the appointment of a vice chair. And I think over the last few years, this, too, has been one of the representatives, one of the independent members, lay members. So could I call for nominations for the post-of vice chair? Can I nominate Sally Ellis? Sally Ellis is nominated. Do we have a seconder for Sally Ellis? Councillor Palma. Any other nominations? Could I see a show of hands for Sally Ellis, please? All those in favour? Thank you very much. And congratulations, Sally. You are being, I think the term is recycled because you were chair a couple of years ago. So welcome back. At item two taken care of item three, do we have any apologies? There's a hand going out. Apologies. So yes, it's just Councillor here, Roberts. We couldn't be able to come to it this morning. Councillor Roberts has apologized. Any other apologies? Yes, we have Councillor Linda Thomas, cabinet member, Lisa Brownville, who's being represented by Simi Joel today. And from audit Wales, we have apologies from Mike Whiteley and Charles Whitby. Thank you. So I welcome the three subs, Councillor McEwan, Councillor Marshall, Councillor Shawcross and also the new member, Councillor Linda Thoo. I don't think the other two members are here, are they, the new members? Just Councillor Linda Thoo. You're welcome, Linda. So that's item three, item four, any declarations of interest? Councillor Palma. Just on the last one, on the last comment, Chair, Councillor interjecting. Councillor CASSIDY would have attended but she's having started training today. Thank you very much. No declarations of interest. Can we then move on to item five at the minutes of the last meeting? Page is five to 16. I'll start by going through page by page to see if there are any corrections or amendments and then having accepted them, we'll come back and look at any issues arising that need attention. Starting with page five, any comments or amendments? Page six, page seven, page eight, page nine, page ten, page eleven, page twelve, page thirteen, page fourteen, page fifteen. If there are no comments or amendments, corrections, can I invite a proposal and seconder to accept them as a correct record? Do I have a proposal, please? Councillor Palma, do I have a seconder? Councillor ALLAN, thank you very much. Can I just see your show of hands if you're all in favour of accepting those minutes? Thank you very much. Shall we just go through page by page to see whether there's anything arising that needs comment or addition or action? Starting on page five, anyone want to say anything? Page six, page seven, page eight, page nine, page ten, page eleven, page twelve, page thirteen, page fourteen, page fifteen. Thank you very much. That concludes the discussion on the minutes of the last meeting. We come now to item six on the agenda, page seventeen, and this is a report on, together we can, community resilience and self-reliance, and it's presented for us by now. Thank you, Chair. Good morning all. So this is being presented to you as a committee based on our Council Protocol, so that this is a formal audit Wales report into community resilience and the protocol says that the report and our proposed response comes to this committee, just for assurance that to show that we've considered the report and then we are submitting a formal response to what it Wales. The report has already been to both scrutiny and to cabinet. So this report by audit Wales is a third of a series of reports looking at how local authorities are tackling poverty. It's focused on community resilience and how local authorities are promoting community resilience, dealing with community resilience, and just by way of, I suppose, explanation. The report highlights the public health Wales definition of community resilience about the strengths, sorry, the ability of a community to draw on its strengths and its assets to cope with adversity. In terms of the key findings, the work Wales recognizes that the local authorities do appreciate the value of community resilience, but their resources do limit what they're able to do in terms of rolling out wider programs to promote community resilience. But they find that community resilience is poorly defined with various definitions across Wales, and whilst it's recognized strategically, delivery is often somewhat more limited. They do identify good practice, including with influential, including things like community asset transfer, support for volunteering, community hubs and so on. Audit Wales also make the point that local authorities, in their view, will deliver services differently in the future, and community resilience will have a more important role to play in the future. Audit Wales recommends two things. They firstly recommend that a self-assessment is done by each council to reflect on how they are addressing community resilience, and that their action plan is then created to set out the approach they're going to take in the future, and that that action plan is then formally monitored within the council to ensure progress. The council, when we're supposed to know, does recognize the importance of community resilience, and wherever resources have allowed, it has promoted community resilience. There are examples across all portfolios of the council, whether that be support for the third sector, whether that be commissioning third sector partners, in places like Social Services and Street Scene, the community asset transfer program that the council has run, the support for social enterprise in PE&E, and then the work that community housing done in building resilience in certain key communities. But it is really important to recognize that the council's resources are extremely limited, and they're not growing. Audit Wales within their report do frameworks increase resilience as a way of reducing costs. They very much propose it as a way of trying to address the budget deficits, and the view of the council on this is that there's no real evidence provided to substantiate this, that this is an effective answer to austerity. Building community resilience is a very gradual process that requires considerable capacity and considerable investment, and that's not capacity investment. The council at this point in time has available. Therefore, you're seeing in section 2.06 report, the council does not intend to implement the audit Wales recommendations, despite its recognition and the value of community resilience. The recommendations that have been through Cabinet and scrutiny are three. Firstly, the findings recommendations are unnoted and considered. Secondly, the response to go back toward Wales is approved, which it has been, and then thirdly, and this was added by scrutiny committee, that just a recognition of the importance of the work of the voluntary sector and individuals play across the county in terms of supporting the resilience of their communities. There's a lot of incredibly important work underway, and the committee were very keen to see that reflected in the final record of proceedings. Happy to take any questions, Chair. Thank you very much now. You sound as if you're suffering from hate for you, but also any comments or questions from members? Yes, Councillor Parvakas. Thank you, Chair. The recommendations mentioned this being referred to committees in June. Can you confirm which committees? And recommendation three refers to comments being referred to Cabinet, well, Cabinet, as you mentioned, has already met. Isn't this the wrong way round that we ought to be considering response in this committee and then feeding back those comments to Cabinet, so that Cabinet can then take those into account, as well as those from the scrutiny commission? I'll come back on the first one. Gareth made one to comment on the seconds. This has been to committee in housing over the scrutiny committee, and it has been to full Cabinet. I haven't got the dates and apologies. My understanding of the protocol, but Gareth, I'm sure will correct me if I'm wrong, is that this is an assurance report, and therefore comes after the final approval at Cabinet. Gareth, would you like to add to that? I don't need to add very much. It is indeed an assurance report. It is for the scrutiny committees to comment on whether the proposed action plan is the right one. The role of the governance and audit committee is really just to make sure that Cabinet and scrutiny between them are actually tackling the recommendations that have been put forward by audit whales. Thank you, Councillor Pargass, are you content with that? Well, I just feel that the wording of recommendation three is incorrect then, because it says, because it says to feed back to Cabinet, well, Cabinet's already met, so any feedback is seemingly superfluous, in that case. I think that's the point you're making, is that we seem somehow to have got out of sequence. Exactly. I think we should note that. Councillor, no, Sally, at first. Thank you, Chair. Clearly, this is quite a tricky issue, because the Council wants to show its support for voluntary organisations, and yet, as is stated very clearly, it's got limited resources. I think in that context, the recommendation that was added going through Scruton is a really important one, because there is an issue about optics, I think, which is not coming across that the Council is not supportive of voluntary organisations and community resilience. I think the addition of that recommendation is important and to be supported by this committee as well. I had a general point, which is that, clearly, with tight and tightening resources, the kind of recommendations that audit Wales makes are important, and there is an issue, which is about expectations, and I guess my question is how the realism of audit Wales' expectations are being represented to them by local government, and how is that being done? Is that being done through WLGA or in other ways? Who might have an answer for that now, Karath? Chair, it's Neil from Cockerton. I think that's a point that audit Wales need to respond to. Would anyone from all different Wales like onto that question, Cowan? Yeah, thank you, Chair. We engage quite regularly with Solis, which is the group Chief Executive, the Regulators, as well as WLGA, and I think we attend society whilst treasure is quite regularly to engage in that. I think the landscape in the public sector has changed quite quickly. I think this report was first drafted, well, this report was published in January 23, so it's potentially slightly dated, and I think the financial picture is even very different to what it was, then with some of these reports and recommendations, so that poverty community resilience may not be something that's on our work programme for the next 20 years, potentially, as we take as it comes, and I think we highlight good practice and potentially what we see as good practice in this report and make those recommendations. I think if this committee and the Council have considered that and decided it's not feasible for them, and then that's the Council's political decision, but hopefully there may be a time in the future where the Council may be able to implement these recommendations or feel like they have more resources or other times to consider and even part implement some of these. I think our role is to highlight what the best practice is and our comparison for ordered bodies. This is a contrary in the local government sector as a whole, not specifically to any one Council, and the recommendations are there for all 22 Councils and others have been able to respond slightly differently potentially. I think we are very much trying to be mindful, what we are very mindful of the position of local government at the minute, we see our role as highlight and best practice and let in local authorities consider their own response to that then. Thank you. Do you want to come back on that at all, Sally? No, I think that's okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. Councillor JOHNSTON. Thank you for telling me speech and congratulations on your elections. Thank you. Just going back, I think the key things that was raised both at Roske Capitalton here again has been the problem between capacity and investment that we go and have. I speak here as a Councillor involved in doing community work within his community and I know it's a sustainable Councilor should we do as a Councillor should continue that. I think anyone who is a Councillor really recognises the importance of volunteers. The role of a Councillor, as Councillor Pan Vance mentioned, the cross-com meeting that this was considered is very, very different to those different skills that you've got to go and have to a community organisation. She was praised in the work, I'll praise them as well, of volunteering matters who have been very helpful in bringing the warm hub and whatever down in in in in Boston. And I think, so I think we've spoken here the capacity and investment with the challenges we have at Council. But I think the other thing that is doesn't come through that report personally and having considered quite some detail and thought about it, is that anybody who works with the voluntary sector will know themselves how pressured the voluntary sector is to get funding to do the things that they want to do and work with Councillors. That's a big challenge. You go to any any organisation that's grappling around for lots of grants for this or for that. So I don't this thing as an issue about the way that Councillors work with the voluntary sector. It's known that there's a vibrant voluntary sector, which is being supported, which can work with local Councillors as well, but also the whole thing won't work because we can't just keep relying on unpaid volunteers to get things done properly that things have to be done by professionals. So thank you, Chair. Thank you very much for that observation. Any other comments or questions? In which case, can I refer you to the recommendations? Maybe they're overriding not me? Health warning that the sequence seems to have been missed slightly. We've got three recommendations. Firstly, to consider the findings or recommendations of the audit Wales together, we can report secondly to note the recommended response in relation towards those recommendations. And thirdly, to recognise the work of all of the voluntary organisations and individuals across the Council. So could I have a proposal for this report and the recommendations, please? Councillor Palma, could I have a seconder, Alan Rainford? Can I see each of hands all those in favour? Thank you very much. Let's move on to agenda item 7 on page 23. This is the audit Wales review of the digital strategy with recommendations and proposed actions and Gareth is going to talk to this report. Yes, Chair, thank you. Just checking again, the people can hear me. Okay, good. So this is another or governance and audit committee plays a similar role in relation to this report as it does to the previous report. This time, though, we have got the sequencing right, to some extent, although possibly not quite spot on because you are considering the report first, before corporate resources over you and the committee have had the opportunity to do so. So audit Wales conducted an audit of our digital strategy last year and then reported that through to us this year. It is our second iteration of the digital strategy, and I think indeed the second report from audit Wales on it. The report outlines a little bit about the governance structures for the digital strategy. The digital strategy is managed at an officer level by myself through the digital strategy board and the purpose of the board is to monitor progress, check on risks and so on and so forth, and also to undertake the difficult task of allocating and prioritizing resources, given the limited change capacity that we have within the organization, both within the IT team, which is particularly constrained, but also across the organization as a whole, because large digital projects don't just relate to changing IT, you have to change the way that you work, that can involve changes to job descriptions, it can involve changes to financial procedures, so other support services and indeed the frontline services themselves need capacity if they are to undertake and fulfil a digital project properly. Audit Wales had a look, I think they looked across the whole of Wales, I think they audited everybody's digital strategy they did. Initially they had made findings that we hadn't properly consulted in relation to the digital strategy, well I'm pleased to say that they were kind enough to recognise when we supplied them with additional evidence that the consultation in formulating the strategy was in fact very good and we consulted widely with various different segments of the population as well as with our residents as a whole, so we consulted different you groups with protected characteristics and so on. In adopting the strategy we have eight different themes as it says within the report and one of those themes is around working good partners and we work quite well with partners as it says within the report, for example we have quite an innovative arrangement with the good things foundation whereby if people are in digital poverty because they can't access the internet because they don't have an internet connection we will provide them with a SIM card, a data SIM card free of charge through our connect centres. Now the thing about our work although we do work well in partnership with some partners is that we haven't sat down with a list of all of our partners and taken a comprehensive overview of which partners might be able to help us with which project and then approached those partners sequentially to say well you know we think you could help us with this are you willing, able to help us and work with us on this project and so that was the first recommendation made by Audit Wales that we needed to have a more structured approach to considering partnerships and we've accepted that and the partnership theme lead, Craig McLeod you soon to be our director of social services as the partnership theme lead for the digital strategy he has committed to bringing forward a map of all our partners no later than November so that we can undertake that comprehensive exercise. The second recommendation made by Audit Wales was around resourcing and it says that we need to we should identify the medium and long-term resource implications of delivering the strategy we had because the the audit took place a little while ago things have moved on in the interim we had started going through a process of reviewing those projects which had funding and knocking them off the action plan if they did not and we are at a stage now where there are 43 projects in the action plan and 34 of those all have clearly identified funding some of them do not have clearly identified funding plans some are aspirational projects which have the lowest priority within the plan and those things that are nice to get rounded to we think that we identified it as something it would be great to do if we had the time and the chance and the opportunity and some of those don't have identified funding streams with them because the work hasn't been done to scope out the costs others are things such as the replacement of the masterpiece financial system where we know we need to do them the projects are being actively worked on to take to take forward but they're still at an early stage and so the costs have not been fully scoped out because you need to work out what it is you want to do work out whether that's available in the marketplace and then try and get some scope handle on potential costs before going forward and drawing up a detailed action plan so we're still at the pre-outline business pre-outline business case still at feasibility stage for some of the projects but we have accepted the need to be clearer about the resource implications of the digital strategy and it is now a precondition of approving any new projects that there is at least some estimate of costs and some indication as to funding sometimes that's a bit chicken and egg people may not have funding within their own service and they might be wanting to bid so they might be bidding for funds from reserves and they will either need to go to chief office the team to ask for the funds before getting approval from the digital strategy board or they'll have to come to the digital strategy board for approval before going to chief office the team for the funds but that would be a relatively short period where a strategy might have approval but not have the funding but the principle and we accept the principle is that cases do need to be funded otherwise what we end up with is a clogged up business plan with projects that have no viable prospect of being delivered and the third recommendation was that having put a project forward we should monitor the potential savings associated with digital projects if the two the focus for the digital strategy has been around improving the customer journey and customer access it hasn't been exclusively around delivering savings so for example school admissions previously was a process whereby somebody would need to apply to education to get a place for their child at the school of their choice they would then have to apply to street scene to get transport arranged for that child having been allocated to the place and then if they were eligible they would have to apply to the benefit service for school uniform grant in relation to the uniform for their child at the school of choice that would involve them literally talking to different officers in those three different services and we now have a single integrated system that brings all of that together in one place in a continuous process so that they apply for their school place first online then when the place has been allocated they can they can sort out transport and also at the same time they can sort out the school uniform grant so it's been the focus has been around improving customer journey and hasn't been exclusively aimed at making savings in light of the worsening financial situation within the council we recognize that that's not a sustainable position and so since the beginning of this calendar year any new business case to DSB the strategy board must identify upfront the savings that are to be delivered and those savings that will be captured and then monitored so that we can use the projected savings to knock off the gap in our funding in the in the medium term financial strategy and the delivery of the savings will be will be going toward balancing the budget and making sure that we return a balanced budget at the end of each year so we accept that recommendation and we have already put in place the process to monitor savings and then lastly we have assessing and monitoring impact so that where we have non-financial impacts arising from projects that they are monitored in detail or formally monitored because we do have anecdotal monitoring at the moment and we have feedback through things like the digital blog in terms of projects that have been successfully delivered but again that just needs to be formalized and we accept that and so the recommendations are being put to a cabinet on that basis so hopefully chair the committee will see the proposed recommendations acknowledging that this report still needs to go to cross for them to comment in detail on those recommendations and suggest whether other actions are needed to properly or wholly fulfill the recommendations from audit Wales but hopefully the committee will be assured that the report is being properly addressed. I'm happy to take any questions chair. Thank you very much Gareth just to repeat what Gareth said in his closing comments are we're invited to review the proposed action plan and also to reach a view on whether evidence is provided that it meets the requirements of the audit recommendations so I hope now the meeting to questions or comments starting first with Sally Alice. Thank you chair my comment really relates to recommendations three and four and really is a request that cross as we move forward takes a particular interest in the implementation of this particular aspect of the the recommendations and clearly it's quite a significant change from looking at customer journey to assessing whether impact has actually been delivered and where the savings have been delivered and that may require something different from cross in terms of scrutinising how the digital strategy is going so a suggestion that that be pulled out as a specific issue for for cross to address going forward. Thank you Sally, Councillor Palkers. Yeah thank you chair I'd like to ask audit Wales really a question very port is not vagated if it had have been vagated what would have been the rating? Hi can I refer that question to you Carlin is that something you can answer? Yes thank you chair it's I thought you we we don't write great so it's not something I also I also give it give it a write great in so informing in case it would be held too but we did do this piece of work across all 22 and I think definitely in in areas with with with a level of engagement and the consultation I think the report overall compares quite favourably when we compare with the rest of Wales so I won't give it an actual score but I think it's relatively positive when on the balance of the findings compared to the national picture. Thank you did you want to come back on Councillor Palkers? Yes please chair the comments about lack of consideration of value for money seem particularly concerning and something which perhaps this committee should delve into a bit deeper. I noted the comments about previous previously the focus of being on the customer experience but the next item in the agenda mentioned that only one out of 154 measures in the Council clan relates to service units use of perspective so I'm sort of wondering how that statement tallies with that item in the next agenda item but if I understand correctly had had this audit Wales report not being done then the Council would have continued not looking at value for money when it implements IT projects so that is that that is a concern that is was taken the audit Wales report to identify this but even accepting that the financial situation is now tougher than it has been looking at value for money in an IT project should have been a major consideration from day one it's not something which is just brought about by the financial conditions you know surely it should always have been looked at and I and I find the findings of audit Wales but that appropriate focus has not been given to this very concern. Thank you. Gareth you would want to come back on that I think I'll come back and clear those points if I might Jay yes thank you. In terms of the the the customer journey I gave an example of where hopefully the improvement for the customer around the education and applying for school places process the changes and the benefits there in terms of not having to apply to different parts of the organization and not going on that sort of paper chase between three different departments would be apparent if not to say self-evident and in respect of the point about value for many what the point that I made was that projects did not specifically have to generate savings here and that's the point that is coming through with audit Wales it projects were not designed to make savings because we knew that we needed to do a lot to improve our online offer the range of services that we offered online was lower than in other councils and indeed the quality of some of those is lower because some of the technology was outdated so we're replacing the payment portal at the moment because you could literally you can only do one transaction at a time you cannot for example build up a basket of different things you can't come along pay something on your rent pay off a parking fine and book a and book a service and then pay for everything in one go using our payment portal because it's very antiquated that will be possible with the new payment portal so there are clear improvements that are possible that is a diff there is a difference between taking steps with clear improvement to make clear improvements in the functionality of the service and the formal monitoring of customer satisfaction via the councils council plan the digital strategy features in a number of places in the council plan but in a number of very small places within the council plan around digital poverty and so one I think one is there is a risk of conflating two issues that are not directly linked by seeing too many parallels between items seven and eight however there is a there is a there is a recognition within the organization and this didn't take an audit report to to to bring about chair as you see within itemate itself we you know we were aware through our own self-assessments that monitoring customer appreciation or or customer satisfaction with services is something we could be better at and that's these as I said not something that took an audit report to to bring about we identified that ourselves so I'm afraid there's there's a we well we can set the council's mind at rest on that point that this would not have carried on in that way but for the audit Wales report thank you and allerated thank you chair um my question is also about um we're recommending relating to monitoring savings and the council's response which is all age and 90 this might cut across the the answer to just already been given by Gareth but it's the second action which refers to um potential savings are robustly identified the job suggests that they weren't being identified previously but oh sorry they were being identified previously but now there's going to be there's going to be some sort of arrangement which brings well bushness into play here um so it is is it the case therefore that the digital strategy board will be attaching greater weight to um savings when they are identified and challenging those and is this likely then also to be combined with a an improvement in the processes for capturing uh and reporting savings through the business case template so is it a combination of those two things process improvements and the general attitude and approach taken by the digital digital strategy board perhaps they'll be adopting a more challenging and critical way when savings come forward that's exactly right chair uh the in order to have a digital project approved it's always been the case that somebody needed to fill in a business case form and it would set out certain things about where you know where does the project fit in terms of corporate priorities and so on and we ask there about savings that would be delivered um or cash or cashable and non-cashable savings that would be delivered um and we got answers to a great or a lesser degree of clarity around where savings might be delivered um Alan will be familiar with the sort of responses that you get when you ask somebody I a service manager what savings are you going to make in your service now it's very blunt it says what's the financial value of the savings you're going to make and there is a precondition as it says within the report that uh a figure must be put on savings upfront um for a report to be for a business case to be considered except in exceptional circumstances and we had an example at the last DSP where we needed a system to ensure that we're properly reporting the incidents of violence against our staff so we can warn anybody else who visits the property in future um that there's a potentially violent resident um at that location or a potentially violent dog or whatever at that at that location um so health and safety to one side uh yeah we ask for an upfront uh number uh that number is passed via the accountant who supports the project board uh to the finance managers for each of the portfolios uh and the portfolios uh and the finance managers in the portfolios will then monitor those numbers to make sure that those numbers are delivered thank you very simple salad is quite effective thank you sally thank you um it's still on the same topic really um my question though now is obviously project management documentation the proposal is actually to introduce that as a way of trying to capture this information am i right in thinking that will be consistent with um project documentation that's used for other types of projects across the council so that there will actually be a standard approach to gathering information about um savings and impact not just on digital projects but on other sorts of projects as well so that we don't have a whole different range of um formats and mechanisms actually for monitoring this information yes so consistency is what you're yes yes is the short answer the long answer is um we we have a system uh that we use for tracking risk uh and council plan priorities that will also fulfill a similar function in relation to project management so we will be running all of our project management through the in-phase system and it will be consistent across the board okay thank you thank you very much well there are no other contributions coming from what I can see so I refer you to the recommendations on page 23 we are asked to review the proposed action plan and offer comment on whether it appears to meet the requirements of the audit recommendations if and when it's implemented it has proposed do I have please a proposal for recommendation Councillor Palma and a seconder Councillor Renford Councillor I promoted you along Alan Renford um can I see a show of hands all those in favour please thank you very much and moving on now to agenda item 8 on page 93 I'm not quite sure who is speaking to this report on audit whales use of performance information service use at perspective and outcomes who is speaking to this this Emma will present it Chair and if I can come in after Emma right Emma welcome good morning Chair for a dap herb yes I'll be presenting this report and then I can answer any of the further questions um so these performance information service use perspective and outcome board it was undertaken during July and September last year and the final report was issued in 2023 the recommendation is for this committee to endorse the council's planned action in response to the recommendations for improvement within the scope of the audit it focused on performance information provided to senior officers and senior members about services of perspective and outcomes and how this information is used audit whales did not undertake a full review of the council performance management arrangements or in in-depth review of the quality of the data that the council collects the scope of the audit was to answer the initial question of does the council performance data enable senior leaders to understand the service use perspective and the outcomes of this activity to effectively manage its performance it focused on some key performance reporting mechanisms so this included council's cabinetry buffer team over unscrewed committee's performance reports which includes details of service performance progress towards well-being objectives and financial monitor information within audit whales highlighted three recommendations for the council following the audit recommendation was recommendation one was information on the perspective of the service user the council should strengthen the information it provides to its senior leaders to enable them to understand how well services and policies and meet the needs of the service users recommendation two was outcomes information the council should strengthen the information provided to senior leaders to help them evaluate whether the council is delivering its objectives and the attended outcomes within recommendation three it concluded that arrangements to check the quality and the accuracy of the data that council needs to assure itself that it has robust arrangements to check the quality and accuracy of the data it provides to senior leaders relating to service user perspective and outcomes and the council response and action plan to the audit whales report are attached within the plan within the pack here and but these actions we want to know we're already under development in relation to the corporate self-assessment findings. Additionally French account account also asked audit whales if they could identify any of the council to liaise with best practice or provide examples of what this looked like in terms of some of the recommendations that came out of the audit to ensure that we could improve going forward at the time of this at the time of the audit this was not available and I was aware that audit whales were reaching out to the national audit office in England for some further information to identify maybe some best practice within England. The response to the recommendations is we have identified within the corporate self-assessment of how we need to strengthen how we regain information regarding the perspective of the service user so the customer contact service manager and much has been undertaken regarding a consultation engagement strategy to improve how we do consult with residents of Flinci. In terms of outcome recommendation two we are looking to strengthen how we deliver its outcomes and intended outcomes of service user perspective within the annual review of the council plan. This is kind of smooth slightly because what we've identified now is we are nearly midway through our council plan so to ensure that we actually consider the information of the service user perspectives in even more detail we are looking to go through a full consultation process so the completion date of this has moved slightly but it is to improve even further how we do consider the perspective of the service user. In terms of recommendation three regarding arrangements to check the quality and accuracy of the data we have sort of identified within this recommendation that it is the responsibility of the service area to review the accuracy of their data and the information it provides to the senior leaders arrangements at a corporate level to check the quality and accuracy of data beyond those existing arrangements would require additional capacity which at the present financial environment that we are currently in this would not be sufficient and would not allow it. However as an additional step within the performance and risk management team we do liaise with performance leads across all portfolios on a monthly basis so as part of our monthly monitoring process with the performance leads we are discussing around monitoring arrangements they do have in place to ensure data accuracy and that these are sort of operating effectively. This does cover both data relating to the service user perspective and obviously around performance management outcomes of the council plan. Thank you. Jerry might just add in relation to this as you will have seen from the report we'd picked up this through our own corporate self-assessment that the organisation needed to be better at consultation. Consultation is the part of the organisation responsible for corporate consultations bearing in mind that both social services and housing have embedded teams or individual who undertakes specific consultations with service users but the corporate comms team needed to be both needed to be reconfigured and strengthened in order to improve our collective corporate consultation. So Rebecca Jones who manages the customer contact service reconfigured the service last year and recruited a customer services and communications manager Hayley Mallon which some councillors will have come across her and Hayley has joined us in around September October last year. She took the steps of getting the Facebook page set up so that we could be taking some active steps immediate quick wins I suppose you might call them to improve consultation and feedback with our residents and has been working on an engagement and consultation strategy which is due for approval well consideration and approval by scrutiny and then cavernous either in the next round of meetings in the end of July or it will be September that the revised the new team has taken steps to start work on the priorities that we'd identified for ourselves those priorities overlap to a large degree with those identified by audit whales so hopefully this committee and Frostkin due course when we report to corporate resources will be satisfied that we're actually already making good progress on the recommendations because they were something that we'd identified ourselves before. Thank you for my benefit Gareth the implementation and monitoring of this initiative sits with scrutiny corporate and corporate resources that's great Jay yes yep thank you are there any questions or comments from members uh Chancellor Parker's tell his hand up first yeah yeah thank you chair um as a local authority our prime purpose is to serve our local residents and this audit report finds that only one out of 154 measures in the council plan relate to the service user perspective which we have to find concerning um we when we look at the recommendations and the um measures for addressing these um which we're asked to to endorse the council's planned action in response and I think we've got to be very clear that the actions which are here are ones that we can endorse as you know meeting the requirements or the um you know recommendations identified by audit whales so for example recommendation one on the information on the perspective of the service user this is this is identified we are told um in the in the 22-23 self-assessment but the action date for completion is not until July next year does that really give enough focus and a sense of urgency um recommendation two um has a completion date of June 24 this year so are we almost there or is that date is that date not realistic um recommendation three on the quality and accuracy of of data we've we've heard that there isn't going to be um any you know monitoring outside of the own departments um to monitor the accuracy of of the data and we have seen from other issues that the first and second lines of defense have been seen to be wanting um and I've asked to have an explanation as to what the first and second lines of defense are and and I haven't had that response and I'll find that concerning so I don't I don't feel that I can endorse this action plan as meeting the recommendations by audit whales I don't have sufficient um um satisfaction that the action plan is robust robust enough thank you uh Gareth we do like go back on that some issues there with with time scale for the start so in relation to the first point about time scales um I've already indicated that one you would be you know the one milestone will be passed hopefully this month um possibly in September when we get the engagement strategy in place of course having one strategy in place it doesn't necessarily mean that engagement will improve it just means that you've got a document to prove that says you're going to aim to improve it and so approval of the strategy could be a milestone that we could that could go into the action plan there and an earlier milestone that could go into the action plan uh so um uh we can we can tighten that up um in relation to um outcomes this is um how to put this we have examples um and um certainly the elected councillors will be able to see this we have examples where um service user consultation takes place uh that consultation uh so there was a there was a report on uh cabinet meeting just gone about extending um adult social care placements work placements uh where a very clear assessment of uh service user satisfactions or feedback in relation to the current service providers formed a key part of the recommendation to extend the contract um it isn't an assay and that was partly my reason for presenting my or my initial comments as I did which is that there is there are localized examples housing is another place of very good consultation um there isn't a systematic uh consultation with residents and uh consultation with residents and feedback from residents can kind of happen in three different ways or at three different points in the journey when you're designing or proposing changes to a service you can do pre-consultation with your residents to say look we're thinking of making these changes what do you think you then get in the moment feedback so you know a service user has uh gone into say a connect centre on their way out there's a pillar and there are three faces happy neutral and sad faces and they hit those buttons as they go out depending upon how they aren't on their experience within um off the service at the point of use uh likewise customer complaints similar sort of in-the-moment feedback um and that takes place again uh it does take place in pockets across the organization but I don't think and I think audit and this is the point that audit whales were making you don't really see much evidence of that in reports to committees so whilst we might have that information at an operational level and we might take it into account at an operational level that's not feeding into the strategic decision making and I think that was the point uh so that clearly could be stronger in terms of how we report it and and there is what I would call after the event or generalized consultation with residents um where you say to them you know once a year how are we doing in terms of delivery of our education function or our highways function and so on and so forth and the WLGA are proposing to do a national to reintroduce a national residence survey they were dropped about 10 years ago as a result of austerity and but now following the obligations to consult the residents they are uh WLGA have taken up the baton again and will be proposing a national residence survey which due to go to cabinet at the end of the life for approval hopefully it will be approved where consistent questions will be asked across the whole of whales to give some comparability and bent an ability to benchmark so we're looking at strengthening response across each of those three different phases of customer consultation if we if we can um so hopefully that will give some measure in relation to that quality of data um Emma are you able to say more about the quality of data I mean I think the point here about the quality of data is that the the performance team that Emma leads consists of Emma and and one other person um there isn't the capacity which uh for them to go through and check that uh consultations that are taking place in services uh the data quality of the results in in relation to those which we which I think we perceived to be uh the the thrust of the recommendation from audit whales and that that's a capacity issue uh for the organization you we have a very small team in Emma's team and they you know they've got a lot of other things to be doing such as reporting on the council plan preparing our well-being strategy and reporting on risk uh to be going round and doing data quality checks in relation to how services have undertaken their consultation yes um I just kind of want to further add to that is when we were undertaken this audit with audit whales we did sort of identifying teams of the quality and the accuracy of the data we did sort of advise audit whales that the portfolio would be best placed to undertake an interview with and to check that accuracy of data we did provide lots of information um we did go through every overview and scrutiny meeting over the last 12 months including including cabinet meetings as well to identify areas of the best practice and where they have considered the service user perspective so the identification of consultations the identification of surveys that have helped to improve performance going forward so all that information was provided to audit whales um but the when it came to having an interview we sort of advised audit whales that we wouldn't be the best place maybe social services or housing but it was decided obviously from audit wealth perspective that they needed to interview people from a corporate perspective um but the information that was shared with them was very in depth but Gareth is right from a performance and risk management team due to our capacity we don't have that resource to check the accuracy and data of all portfolio's data performance related information thank you councillor parker say you are short reassured in any way from what you've heard um not completely chair in relation to the last point like I accept that um an MS team cannot possibly check all the data from all the different portfolios that's of course the of course the case but but what the situation seems to be and we have seen this with with the improper use of credit cards and the lack of dbs checks but things only get picked up when there is an internal audit and that might be you know once every ten years so you know things can go on things can go wrong under the radar for many years and what we don't seem to have are the individual portfolios having a system to check that what they're doing is correct which doesn't seem to be this first line of defense or indeed a second line of defense where the portfolios themselves can verify on a sampling basis that the information they are provided is correct if we have a situation where we can go ten years with incorrect data being fed up the line then I find that unacceptable they're well that's not exaggerating thank you uh Sally Ellis thank you my comment relates to recommendation two where I didn't really feel assured by the organizational response and it's really because and I think Gareth has addressed it to some extent the the wording here is very generic that it didn't give me really very much confidence that there were going to be specific outcomes from this it seems to me that from what he has said that there are a number of quite specific actions that are actually being proposed in areas that together outcomes information in areas that have not traditionally had that within the council and it seems to me it would be helpful to have it clear what those areas are so that we can actually see where outcomes are being tracked and the difference that is actually making and now whether that will be in the consultation and engagement strategy I'm not sure and maybe it's a function of the format that we've got that this all seems to be quite generic but certainly as written I don't feel very confident that it will make it will make very much different as it stands right thank you for that Gareth I'm going to take the two points and then give you a chance to respond to all the comments that are being made and I'm ready for next I'll give you a I've got a couple of questions for all the whales um actually let me get the papers in order the first question really was about this request the council put it whales to see if they can identify any councils that are best practice in this area I appreciate that it might be that this is too early for them to have been able to receive a response back from the NAO in in England when it's just a question just about towarding whales just to watch one of the rest that make it in finding some information that relate into practice adopted by all the council's particularly best practice councils the other question really was about that before that final page our current council puts all ones who are voting arrangement which have set out on page 103 where all the whales refer to the fact that the council's reporting arrangements are such that a report is submitted on a half yearly basis by the time date of is when it's collected on a half yearly basis but the time it's analyzed assessed then then reported to all of the relevant four rooms within the council the the chief officer team the cabinet it's probably going to be more eight or maybe even more to knowing by the time he comes through to cabinet or scrutiny committees so a question toward it whales really was whether not we'd stand in the capacity and resource issues that the council's facing whether that practice of reporting them sort of more fatal one month nine is is not a matter of concern whether they think that other local authorities and whales or maybe even in England report on a more frequent basis Carmen would you like to come back on that now? Yeah yeah so just looking at my colleague Laura Glaude who worked on this as well so I'll let you come in after if you want to add anything there's a lot of yeah unfortunately no no updates on where there is best practice yet hopefully when we do if we do get a response that highlights that we'll pass it on but no update on that yet unfortunately I think with the suite of data that you collect it does take time to process like you say I think our view on that is being right to that's probably boring you know it's part it's timeliness is part of qualities and it's the trade-off between the two and then we've got a real audit will's view on you know this is how fast it should take but I think what what I as a committee what what you would be what you would be looking to get assurance over maybe from the from the council is are you comfortable with it more than anything but I think with the strategic nature maybe of that and it's trend analysis in a way with a lot of these measures that are quite a high level like I suppose it's how those trend over time and key decisions take time to play through so I wouldn't be overly concerned with it being monthly or month nine on the sort of half yearly report and I think that's quite natural for most organizations that we see with that type of report thank you lord if you want to come in with anything yeah just to confirm that we are used to publish a national summary for this topic to be a very soon and we had initially intended for us to include reference to good practice however our research to find good practice included looking at English authorities as well but it didn't yield the suitable pay study that we could use in our national report we talked about encouraging councils to work together and where they have similar objectives such as tackling poverty side think about how they could develop relevant performance information on service user perspective and then you've got the added benefits of being able to benchmark of course I was in alluded to earlier and there'll also be an audit where's good practice events on this in the autumn so we're working on that in the meantime after hopefully publishing the summary reports by the end of the month now in terms of the question on frequency it wasn't amongst the criteria that we looked at for this review although we did perhaps observe that there was a bit of a variation we had examples where some would produce performance reports every two months for internal purposes for like child performance challenging things with the head of service and with the portfolio leader for example and then you had others where it would be six months but then main performance report would be the annual statutory one so there's a great variation but because it wasn't amongst the criteria what we were looking at we'd conduct them in depth through you so formulate any judgments on this thank you now contribution now from Councillor JOHNSTON then I'll come back to you Gareth thank you that this doesn't require a response from gosh I have to admit yeah you're just taking off some of the questions I was going to well the issues I was going to raise to be honest won't have you mentioned before I am concerned about the lack of good examples of good practicing Wales and likewise England and then we have talked about if they're on council having the cart before the horse now about when we got to report and I did look because being a bit of a geek on these sorts of things I'd look at how we actually rated compared to the 22 Councillors in Wales and there are on wine you can be very thorough and when I go and read them the bulk of the comments are all the same well it is good practice better practice also good practice because there wasn't really a knowledge where the word cancers where they were better practice those were always heavily cabbiated what I think concerns been a way is that well you may get this thematic report now one of the things I think I feel is important and I do my practice as a cabinet member here is that I always want to see what other people are doing and how they are doing it so far from the what's come out I haven't really got any ideas or good ideas of of what can be done here but the key thing here here is again is that this was a thematic report done now I would have thought that what you should be doing is bringing out your thematic reports at the same time as you are bringing out your individual council reports otherwise there's no context as a council I want to be able to do the three pick the document and say look here's what's happening nationally and here's how we're doing within it I never got that we were looking when this was discussed at crosscom it's been discussed here it's been looking what are we doing here so I mean I did look at some say what was happening to some of councils and I know that's for the comments you made if I just read it out here very with me one second does the thing goes and closes down when we're looking at the key comments say within linture the key was limited performance information is provided to senior leaders to enable them to understand service use perspective and the outcomes the council's activities we think well yeah in powers for example the performance information provided to senior leaders does not enable them to have a comprehensive understanding of the service use perspective or outcomes this restricts the ability to understand the impact of the council services and policies so very very similar ways of putting the same very similar words describing the same thing in my opinion so I think that what all these wells could do if they give me a thematic report on all these 22 reports on part of thematic report that thematic report has to accompany them that might be an extra paper but it'd be very helpful where there is a thematic report it is part of the law which goes so the council compare is able at least a benchmark to what is happening nationally I think the other question here that I think it wasn't really looked at any any great detail what are the cost implications of the recommendations from all that way else because again we've talked here about previously about our own capacity our own issues with capacity and investments so I'd just be grateful on those observations thank you would you like to reflect on that thousand yeah I think it was similar to the performance reporting question that we just had I think that the balance on that for us is it is timely with quality as well because timeliness performed it is such a big part of this I think when we're waiting to conclude all 22 authorities before pulling that together into a national summary some of the work had been done earlier we we'd have potential lessons to learn and findings to share and if we were waiting for the national report to be ready to share the report then the report would potentially be outdated so I think our our approach at the minute will be to share local reports as soon as they ready we will also share the national report and it might be at that time where the council can can fit consider both together and as Laura pointed out there is then that that's building up to good practice event in this in this area then as well to really push on get those ideas could because we've struggled in the national report so it's never a sort of well and done and that's washing our hands a bit either I guess is on that so let's just come back but do you think it is fair to issue individual reports separate from a national thematic one when what you're trying to do is get an overall picture of what's happening nationally or should you or should you go and take the the the the conclusions of your report and discuss them with the with the the office and have them discussed at county a county or borough level in the first instance before so that there's a so that both of the national report and the local reports come out at the same time given context because I'm sure this issue here will be this very very similar in the other two of us of Wales so we are without pieces of work the primary purpose of them is to charge our duty for each council so it's done and our sort of local local powers and duties and what we're trying to achieve is the primary purpose is for us to have assurance that flinch account of the council has proper arrangements in place to secure economy efficiency and effectiveness and they thought to serve its primary purpose what we're looking at in the very first instance is what is flinch you're doing and letting flinch you know this was identified as a national risk so that that's when okay we we will deliver this across across the 22 and I think even the summary report of pulling these together is something that's quite new to us but I think but personally I think because timeliness and quality and speed of delivery is so important I think change in delivery model would I appreciate this this pros and cons to both models but I think on balance at the minute we we probably see it that the way we're currently delivering has more benefit to the community. you you you [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO]

Thank you, Chair Deol. Borrowed out everybody good morning. We've got Fiona here as well, who's the report author just in case there are any questions by intentions to briefly go through the report. It's quite a small report, but very important nonetheless. And it followed a similar path to the report on the gender item was six in that. It's already been to corporate resources over you scrutiny committee and cabinet. So in September 2022, audit Wales published the report on its audit of the use of quality impact assessments in Wales. The quality impact assessments more on the tick box. The aim of the audit was to provide insight about the approach to equality. Equality impact assessments undertaken across the public sector in Wales. Audit Wales set out four recommendations. Three of which were Welsh Assembly Government. And one of which was local authority. Sorry to both ends here, but can I have some clarification? There seems to be two Councillor Linda Thiews on the call. [BLANK_AUDIO] I'm sorry I had to rejoin. I don't know how I've got two of me on that, though. And I was meant for, did you mute your hand as up as well? My hand on this is what we're planning to have to do when Damien is finished introducing the report. Right, so we'll let Damien continue, yeah? Okay, thank you very much. So I'll go back on to the final point then, the point that I just made. Audit Wales report sets out four recommendations and seven key area improvements for Welsh Government and Public Bodies. They're set out in Appendix 1. Three of the four recommendations for Welsh Government and the fourth recommendation applies to Public Bodies. So that's the Security Council. The recommendation is set out in 1.04. Public Bodies should review their overall approach to equality's impact assessment, considering the fines of this report and detailed guidance available from the Qualities and Human Rights Commission and the NHS Practice Hub. There was a similar report published in November 22 by Audit Wales, Time for Change, Poverty and Wales, which set out similar issues in terms of compliance. The Council agrees with the recommendations of the Audit Report. And in doing so has been already engaging with the University of Manchester, who have been working in collaboration with Manchester to combine authority to develop a carbon and co-benefits decision support tool. The tool was being piloted in Greater Manchester and Greater London Authority and Welsh Government Association was supported with this tool being piloted in Wales. And on that note, Flinch County Council is the only authority in Wales piloted in this tool at the moment. Given that when in Wales and given the pilot is in England, we've obviously made some alterations to ensure that we meet the statue assessments around equality, social economic duty and the Welsh language, and the report and the tools also been amended to encompass the recommendations from the two audit reporters noted in this report. And it will be published after the discussion started with the University about, as the reports were published after the discussion started with the University. As part of the evaluation tool, the Manchester University have been interviewing users and decision makers during April and May this year. And the outcomes of the evaluation will be reported back to Cabinet so that consideration can be given if the Council wishes to adopt the tool and its approach to conducting equality's impact assessments. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Damian. Any comments? Alan, first of all, I'm Rynford. Thank you, Brian. Thanks, Chair. Thanks, Damian, for the report. A couple of questions for me. One, I think you mentioned that the report has already been to the reach group in Cabinet. Yeah. So, some of the questions, one of the questions really was about what was the response to this report. Given the fact that it's been a bit of a theme today, that a lot of the recommendations or proposed improvements or suggested improvements. I've always been heavily coming at it by the difficult position that the Council's in in terms of resources and not having capacity in a lot of areas. So with that in my, I wonder what the response or the reaction of Cabinet moving scrutiny was. Also, I've been, when I was a Council officer in my four life, one of my papers was completing EIA's and the amount of time and effort that went into it and the amount of staffing resources that went into completing them. It did feel for me. One of the sentences, one of the comments on page 127 that the two lanes to support a holistic approach to a process that embeds review and assesses all policies initiatives or services. Now, what's that might provide some really comprehensive data of assessment on which to assess policy proposals against an EIA framework that does feel extremely time consuming. So really, that's what we took the two full question one was about the response of the cabinet. And second, does this to really seem a practical thing to do, given the, the Council's difficult circumstances. Okay. Thank you, Ellen. Chair, I'm okay to to answer that. Yeah, I may need Fiona's assistance on some of the detail around the, the tool itself, and what that actually means. But in terms of. Crossing cabinet, you will probably be already aware as committee that obviously we've been using the EIA's for quite some time as an authority. What you may not be aware is that they are quite, they have been quite repetitive. And did not really, well, people have been doing them in every service area, of course, there has been sort of feedback that they're too onerous. So that's the, that's the sort of the general sort of position previously. Obviously, from a flidgy county council, we, we appear to be sort of having the gaze of whales on us at the moment, rather on the pilot and obviously, once we, once that palette is complete and the findings are reviewed, then we will be reporting back to organizations such as the WLGA and it may be that. You know, some of the good practice from the tool is picked up across the nation. The generally that the sort of comments back are always supportive of policies impact assessments. I think members are acutely aware of the importance of them. And I think members are aware that the sort of the existing EIA's were sort of repetitive and difficult. The hope is that the new tool would make that easier, but still contains the most important points, which, which capture the sort of recommendations from the two audit reports. I don't know if you want to come in, Fiona with a bit more detail on what the new tool would look like, but I guess in answer, the tool and the findings will be reported in more depth anyway. So perhaps the answers will come at a later stage once the all the findings of the other pilot are finalized. Yeah, Damien, but I don't everyone. Good morning. Yes, the new tool, because there are so many different impact assessments, we have to complete the new tool. Rather than people keep typing the same information in over and over again that the new tool was developed by Manchester University, it will pull in something that information that is can be used from one impact assessment to another impact assessment. Because there are several different impact assessments, we have to complete. So this tool brings them all together in one place, but we can still pull out what the quality impact is what what language impact is what the impact will be on carbon. And so it'll save on the repetition that we found previously, because there are lots of close links with all the different impact assessments. Where we use in data and research, so it's, it hopefully will cut down on that and that's been the feedback so far from people who have used it from the employees have been using it it's saved that and repetitiveness. In terms of being onerous on employees, I think these are the things we need to be doing that before we make decisions anyway to make sure we're spending on one in the right way that we've developed in services that meet people's needs and we're not indirectly discriminated. Against anyone or any particular group of people. So, you know, we should be doing research should be engaging with our customers. So it's just the impact assessment is just pulling it all together in one place, but we're trying to make the capture and all that evidence easier. Thank you very much. I don't have any other hands up. So I wanted to be moving on to the recommendation, which were invited to note the progress to meet the recommendations of audit Wales, equality impact assessments, more than a tick box exercise. Do you ever propose that is, Councillor Palmer, seconder Sally Ellis, all those in favour. Any against any abstentions. Thank you very much. Let's move on now to item 10. The end of audit summary for flinch account council 2023. Neil, is this something you're picking up on. Thank you, Chair. And so this is the summary of the audit, sign your own audits for flinch account council. It's the fourth audit summary that we've received. It covers three specific areas, the audit of accounts, value for money and sustainable development principle. In section 103, it refers to a little bit of data around draft statements, the annual governance statement and the certification, which confirms audit of the audit of accounts being completed. The appendix within the PAC that you've got on page 141 is the Welsh narrative and 147 English narrative. And I'll keep referring back to those as we move through this paper. 104, you will already have seen on the agenda and have heard on this agenda a number of those reports that have been submitted and you've discussed those and debated those in this forum. Again, the Welsh summary of that is on page 142 and the English equipment is on page 148. And then 105 within the report. There's a number of planned items of work that audit wells are carrying out or have already completed. So the completed one at the moment is a risk assessment, and others are either in scoping or approaching draft. I've got no further points to raise, Chair. I have to answer any questions in relation to the document before you. Thank you very much. Alan Renford. Thanks, Chair. I guess my question really is, of course, towards Wales. It's about the plan worker 2324. As the chief exactly was just mentioned, there's to be a lot of them. The matter of abuse, one of them is on financial sustainability. It was only a lot of time scales audit wells are working to, when we can expect to receive that report, and else is it's not in the forward plan for this committee. Some question is, where can we expect the results of that be, let's take, let's take really. Yeah, we've undertaken a field look for that thematic review at all 22 local authorities between the year end and the end of May. They've been collected together. We've shared a draft of that report with officers. I think about a week and a half ago now. For them to check over for factor accuracy or, because I think Gareth mentioned earlier, sometimes when you see the narrative in black and white it prompts more evidence that that maybe wasn't presented so it gives it gives us that chance to make sure we've got the correct picture with that. So, yeah, the drafters with the council, I think we do do feedback from that next week. We'll then reflect on that feedback and respond, and put it through publishing and translation. So, in terms of committee, I'm not sure what the arrangements are, but I'm hoping a final draft be shared with officers in July on that. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you, Chair. We've heard in previous items, the issues raised regarding lack of focus on value for money. Lack of focus on the outcome for service users and the possibility of data. You know, not being accurate because it doesn't because of isn't any assurance regarding checks. So, that, that sort of summary is repeated on page one three five on the English version of audit warehouse report. So, with that in mind, I find it hard to accept the word assured in the recommendation. I think concerned might be a more appropriate word. Would you care to comment on that, Neil? I mean, clearly, I don't agree with that comment from Council Parkhurst, assured is the correct terminology in my view. And as I've just said, I don't agree with the comment that Council Parkhurst has chosen to raise. I think assured is quite an acceptable term in terminology is quite an acceptable terminology for the document that you've got before your chair. Thank you. I see no other hand, so can we move to recommendation, which is that we be assured by the content and observations of the audit general for Wales annual audit summary report 2023. Could I have a proposal, please? Councillor Palma. Could I have a seconder? Sally Ellis. Could I have a show of hands all those in favor? Can I see other any votes against? And other there's one vote against Council Parkhurst, any abstentions. Then it is carried. Thank you. And so to item 11, in fact, item 11, 12, 13, semi the roll yours, you're, you're standing in police today. So welcome. Can you first of all, talk us through item 11. Lovely. Thank you very much. Good afternoon, everybody, and I'm taking you through the three items next on the agenda. First one is the audit charter. So internal audit delivers independent objective assurance to the Council. We evaluate your risk management control and governance processes and we report to you in terms of committee. To do that, we need a mandate, and this is contained within the audit charter, its requirement for all audit functions. It's been in place since day one, and it's reviewed on an annual basis. The recent review. 2024. Only very minor changes, specifically job titles. You have two documents in front of you. One with all the track changes, and one is a clean version committees being requested to consider and approve the updated charter. And just for information next year's review, we'll have to take into account the changes. Proposed by the global standards. We'll, we'll undertake a review of that. We'll provide any particular points of difference to you as part of the usual reporting, but in this particular one, it's just appendix B that we're looking at. I'm happy to take questions. If I can't build them. I'll have, I'll refer them on to Lisa chair. Thank you very much to me. I don't see any hands up. In which case I will refer you to the recommendations members, but we are requested to consider and approve the updated internal audit charter. I see a hand up now from Chancellor Parkhurst. Yeah, sorry. I'm not quick enough with the laptop. Yeah. I don't see any reference in this to first and second line defenses. And I just wonder whether they should be. In terms of the charter, specifically, it's never been structured in that way. The usual operating model for internal audit is to provide independent and objective review of the controls in place at first line management and second line, any kind of scrutiny functions, because we are the third line. The charter identifies our ability to access information at any of those levels of the organization. So it's never been structured in that way, but I can feed that back to Lisa chair. Thank you very much. That might be helpful. If there are no other hands up, then let's move to that recommendation. We're a requested to consider and approve the updated internal audit charter. Could I have a proposal, please. And a mentored and Sally Ellis seconding and a show of hands those in favor. Thank you very much in the against any abstentions. No, then that is carried. Thank you very much. So me, the floor is still yours. Item 12. This is the action tracker for this committee. It represents action points raised by yourselves and the progress against these. I believe that all of these have been resolved at the briefing chair. We had a quest for feedback, which I have forwarded to you on item 69. And the committee is being asked to accept this report. No show of hands members recommendation is we accept the report. Could I have a proposal, please. Callan Renford and Councillor Palmer could have a show of hands those in favor. Any against any abstentions. It's carried. Thank you. And finally, item 13, Sydney, the forward work program. Last one from me chair and this is your forward work program. It represents the items coming for your attention. One of the things to note here is some movement of reports from this June to July committee specifically because either external regulatory reports have been scheduled or due to officer availability. You'll know I'm not Lisa. So I'm not taking you through the annual report progress report or draft governance statement Lisa will pick these up in the July committee. Obviously available for questions, but we're being asked to consider this forward work program approving and amending as necessary chair. Thank you very much. And there's a question on common from Sally and this. Thank you. It looks like the July meeting is going to be a pangolactic gargle blaster, as they say. In the light of that, I think it would be helpful to have whatever documentation we can as early as possible. The social services performance evaluation report, for example, is on the agenda. If we could have that now or early so that we actually get a chance to read that, then that I think would be really helpful. The other point, I think, is the one that Alan Rainford raised, which is if we are going to have the audit wells report on financial sustainability short, they can we have that programmed into the forward work program, please. Thank you very much. So, may pertinent comments there from Sally, can we have what documentation is available as soon as possible. See me, I'm sure you can follow that through Council Parkhurst. Yeah, thank you. We've seen with various internal of the courts, a situation where failings have not been identified earlier, and I've already mentioned the in appropriate use of credit cards. And the DBS checks. I have asked two months ago for details of what our first and second line of defences are and having that a response. I think it would be helpful for this committee to have the understanding. And I therefore suggest that that is added to the forward work program. May I chair. Thank you, Councillor. I know that first, the three lines of defence model. I know that that training is delivered as part of the audit committee training generally. I believe that Lisa is aware of your request to have some more specific training. I shall obviously reminder of that and suggest that it goes on to the program as you have. But internal audit always focuses on the first and second line. The first line is management. The people who designed the controls. The second line are these scrutiny functions. So, for example, this committee or cross or performance risk management team providing oversight wherever that is. That's the second line. And the third line is your internal audit function, which has no role in the development of control at no role in the articulation of risk. But we come along at points in time and provide assurance based on the evidence, which we can see. That's broadly a very quick summary of the model if that helps you. Thank you. But your take, Councillor Parker, comments back to Lisa. Yes, of course. Thank you very much. I see no other hands up. Therefore, can we move to recommendations? One and two. But we have considered the draft forward work program and commented on. And that in consultation with the chair and vice chair of the committee and their relations place as necessary. Councillor Palma is keen to propose this recommendation. I'm looking for a seconder. And that is on the rainford. Can I see a show of hands please always in favour. Thank you very much. I don't see anyone against no or abstaining. Members, that concludes this meeting of the comments and audit committee. Thank you very much for bearing with us a little bit, but we got through it. And the next meeting is the 24th of July. I look forward to seeing you then. Thank you very much. Councillor Palma, just congratulate you on the meeting. Thank you. Thank you very much. Is that seconded? It is brilliant. Thank you very much. Right, Ryan, would you mind staying on for a minute? It's Sharon here. I can do this. Just to quickly check something with you. We have a process in place about the, you know,