Transcript

Good afternoon and welcome to the license in subcommittee meeting. My name is Councillor Meshtakame and I'll be Chairing this. I'm the Chair of the license in subcommittee. This meeting is being held in person. Committee members and key participants are present in the meeting room whilst others may join remotely online. This meeting is being filmed for the Council's website for public viewing. I would remind members of the meeting to only speak on my direction and to speak clearly into their microphones to ensure that their contributions can be participants, that this meeting is period leading up to the elections taking place on the 4th of July. Hi Chair. Sorry, can I just, I can't hear what's going on. Could you switch your microphone on? It could be me. Can you hear me now? I can hear you now, yes. Okay. Thanks Councillor. Okay, I'll continue from where I was. I was just done the introduction and then talking about the filming of the meeting and finally I was saying that I would remind all members and other participants that this meeting is taking place within the formal pre-election period leading up to the elections taking place on the 4th of July. Can members and officers please introduce yourself from my right? David Wong from Legal Services. My role here tonight is to provide legal advice to the Councillors. Simi Yasmin, Democratic Services. Cathy Driver from License In Service. I've been presenting the reports this evening, Chair. Thanks, please. And would you introduce? Good evening. Robert Vockai from Winkler Sherwood representing Sainsbury's. Please. I'm the licensing manager for Sainsbury's. And I'm Tom Holland, the acquisition manager for Sainsbury's. Thank you. That means Olivier, he's a neighbor, he's 15 meters away. I'm thinking on behalf of John as well. I'm Gayle Stevens and I'm a local resident in Remdergrove. Thank you. Thank you very much. Apologies. Simi, do you have any apologies? I know, Chair. We have no apologies perhaps since. Thank you. Do members have any declarations of disposable interests? No, Chair. No. Thank you. Noted. Can members please note the rules of procedure on pages 9 to 18 of the agenda. Just for noting of the members. Simi, now to announce those in attendance. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. This is for item 3.1, application for a new premises license for Sainsbury's 409 to 413 Milan Road, London E34 PB. Chair, we have from the applicant side Mr. Robert Vockai, who's their legal representative. John Sergai, the license manager for Sainsbury's $ft and Tom Hollins' surveyor. We also have those people making representation. We have Councillor Naslley Bianfay online. We have Gayle Stevens, who will be speaking in objection. We also have Oliver Rose Rose so on behalf of John White, who will be speaking on behalf of John White in objection. Thank you, Chair. Once the application has been presented by the licensing officer, the applicant will be invited to speak and will be given a total of five minutes to make their representation. The objectors will also be given five minutes to each to make their representation. I will let each speaker know when you have one minute remaining. Please note that the subcommittee have read the agenda in advance. Thank you. Thank you, Simi. Can I ask Carter to drive the licensing officer to introduce the report? Thank you, Quarry. Thank you, Chair. The application as you state is for Sainsbury's 499-413 My Land Road, London E3. The application is for a new premises license for the sound of alcohol, for off sales only, for Monday to Sunday from 7pm to 11pm. The opening times will be 24 hours Monday to Sunday. There has been five resident objections and the local ward Councillor. 0.7 of the report are conditions that have been offered from the applicants. That's at page 22 that have been offered as part of the application and the operating schedule. 0.8 have been conditions that have been agreed with the police. That's conditions 1-4 at page 77. In case this evening, I know a licensing and planning are two separate regimes, but I would just like to point out, I have just checked the planning portal in terms of any planning permission that seems to have been approved in October 23, just in case it does come up this evening. The application is detailed at page 29, a plan of the site is at page 29 and license premises have been detailed just in the proximity of the premises. Obviously that list is not exhaustive but potentially just premises that are nearby. There have been photos of the venue and that's at 53 to have a look where the site is. Other than the guidance that's produced in the report, Chair, I have nothing else to present unless you have any further questions. Thank you. Do members have any questions?

Can I now ask the applicant to present their application, and you have five minutes? Over to you. Thank you. >> Thank you, and thank you for the shirt please order from ... I received this application for a new Sainsbury's to trade alcohol 711. We're not applying for opening hours. I can clarify that. We're not intending to open for the opening of the premises as opening hours is not a license for activity as such. The plan is to open 711 and for the alcohol hours to match those hours. We did consult with the police, your police licensing officer Mark Perry in advance and that's why you've got the four conditions there which I can go through in detail outside of my five minutes but the police are satisfied with the application. They are your experts on crime and disorder. The building was formally occupied by gate way housing. They're moving into part of the building. Now we're taking the ground floor. We will have control of the front area which I know is one of the points that's been raised by residents about vans being parked on the frontage of the premises. That would be part of our demise and we would be able to keep that clear of vehicles. The residents are also concerned about what the council has raised the impact on independent shops. That's not a relevant consideration for a license application. So I won't dwell on that. A concern that antisocial behaviour would increase for the police to satisfy their or your experts on crime and disorder. Then we've got Mr. Behregg who's referred to traffic and an understandable concern about how we get into the store and how we get the trucks through. Tom can give further information on this if you wish. But we have done a trial of Sainsbury's truck. I think it's last Friday, Thursday, Friday. We did a trial. We are able to drive around without any interference with parking in the area or blocking the road in any way. So we have got space. There's no question of as reversing back out of Ronda Grove onto the main road. We are able to do a loop and we've trialled that. There's a concern about litter. We will be keeping the frontage clean and tidy at all times. There's concern about drunks who may have previously sat on the wall of the territorial army forecourt on Ronda Grove. That's not our premise. We will be monitoring the front. A concern about house values. Would they go up, down, if the Sainsbury's open? We've never seen that happen in practice. Again, it's not a licensing issue. Concern about traffic and drug dealing. Again, it's outside about control. This is the Sainsbury's local. You're familiar with Sainsbury's locals in your area and you've got no representations from any of your responsible authorities. Concerned about increased foot traffic, especially at late hours. Most of our customers, if not virtually all of our customers, will arrive on foot. We're perfectly accustomed to working with stores in similar locations, and we would very much hope that those in Ronda Grove and the TriDega Estate will be our customers moving forward. We look forward to being part of the community. There's a concern about impact on vulnerable groups, elderly children, and individuals health conditions. Again, we've not seen that present a problem elsewhere at our other stores. We're not in a committed impact area. That's important. I can explain that outside of my five minutes. But it would be for objectors to give real evidence as to why you should be refusing this application. Today, we are within your licensing policy, with the exception of 30 minutes on Sunday hour, a matter for you. We would ask that you grant the license to match our trading hours. Your policy hours are actually longer than the hours that we're seeking. Your policy hours are Monday to 36 o'clock until 11.30. We're applying for seven to 11 so we're well within for Monday to Thursday. Friday and Saturday, you're 6 a.m. to 12.m. at night, we're applying for seven to 11. Again, well within those hours. Sunday, you're 6 a.m. to 10 30 p.m. Within the morning, we're 30 minutes out in the evening. Your policy does state that generally shops will be able to sell alcohol to match the hours that they are open for trading. We're going to be open 7-11. The government's guidance under Section 182 of the Act says the same thing that shops should generally be free to provide sales of alcohol consumption off the premises at any time that the retail outlet is open for shopping unless there are good reasons to restrict those out. So if there are good reasons based on evidence that you're here today, then obviously it's within your remit to limit the application. But I would stress that there are no representations from any of the responsible authorities to this application. That's my five minutes. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. For submission now, can I ask the objectals to present their objections? And you have five minutes again. My name is Olivier. I'm a resident speaking also on behalf of John White. I'm on my left there. A couple of points there. You mentioned the operator of the supermarkets. There's another sense, 300 meters away, and there's a handful of other supermarkets in the immediate area. This is the only one that actually is on a regional street. Most of the frontages of the county are on the road, not on my road. And this is where we have a problem. This is a deeply residential place. We have issues with noise. I mean, again, we are very much you know, meters from games house in this case, and we're worried of the impact it might have. We already have noise issues in the area. You probably have heard issues because they're also hitting the licensing side of the church doing lots of events at the other street. The street is already paying a decent price there. We are having issues with trucks. I don't know what time you have tried your trial. I can tell you that you know, depending on the time, the parking is chock a block, and I have seen trucks and small trucks doing half turns or less doing three five point turns to actually go around the corner. And this is a frightening as a bit. We're worried about public safety. I mean supermarkets don't operate anymore without deliveries and Uber's and lots of mopets all around immediately in front of your supermarkets is a parking for bikes and scooters. It's often very, very, very busy. If you start adding up lots of scooters and market people, you know, there it's another problem. We actually, you know, go towards public health there. I mean, these delivery people have always been struggling with access to toilets and decent facilities. I don't know how you are dealing with that. I know that shortcuts are supposed to be helping them because there's, you know, collecting and developing and dropping from there. Vulnerable groups. I mean, they're going back there. My kids are walking there. There are kids working from the tube station to the primary school four meters away from there. Seven M is, is, is, may not be the best time for them to meet people going to bike, you know, alcohol everywhere. Yeah, that's, that's our point. I mean, we're wondering whether the timing is appropriate and certainly, you know, and seven, eleven for it is certainly not. Thank you. Can I ask the next object to? Oh, sorry. I'm the person who talks about Drunks in the street that you referenced. I've lived in that street for 27 years and I'm right next to the territory, which is adjacent to Gateway housing. So I'm very close to it. And when the drunks were there, they would congregate in the street and I would ask, sorry, Madam students, can I please suggest that the objector should be actually addressing their remarks to the Washington subcommittee members, not, yes, yes, not necessarily... David, Robert was speaking, answering him. But I'm talking about his points anyway. Yes, and that is relevant, I think, that Rhonda Grove is there because the drunks would congregate in the street and I would argue the reason they did that is because it's a quite residential street outside the co-op where you can buy alcohol three minutes away and also Tesco's, which is, say, four minutes away where you can buy alcohol in these kinds of hours, they're on the main road. So it's very tempting if you're going to get drink very early in the morning to stand in our street and hang around and there's now thanks to Gateway parking area, a lovely space for them to do it. And it's not just the drunkenness, it's the intended violence, oh, sorry, and also the mess that goes with it, urinating, vomiting, noise, et cetera. So I do think that it was relevant to mention that about our street. It's not just going to be up on the corner. The other thing is the... This centimeters is going to be on the A12 out of London, so in the evenings it's going to be very easy for people to pop in, park up and pop into by bottle of wine or some beer or something for their evenings. There's nowhere for them to park. Those corners actually outside Sainsbury's are covered in bike racks, scooter rack, and what do you call them, lime bikes racks. So they're completely covered. The streets itself, we already have parking issues with Gateway housing vans, which park up on our streets even though they have their own car park, but they don't use it. And also we have a temple across the road where people park when they come to various festivals. And also when there are festivals in the park, which there are now going to be extended for 15 days a year, I think instead of 12, with people come, you know, revellers or fairly use of them. They come to the tube, they can easily now pop across the Sainsbury's by the drink and then cut down rond de grove, which will have a lot more football than it's used to have for all these reasons, plus a lot more traffic pollution. As Olivier said, there are young children living in the street. When I lived, well at the beginning when I had three small children now growing up, they were very frightened of these drunks next door coming out, because there was often fights breaking out, there was a stabbing or a sort, you know, you can look it up. So that I do, I don't concur that everything will be confined to the myland road end. It will come into our street. We're not a busy thoroughfare. We're becoming a busy thoroughfare for the reasons that we're outlined, and this is just going to increase it and make it fairly difficult to live there. And that's also going to have an attendant. You know, I also don't agree that it's not going to affect air pollution because it is the attendant, the increased vehicles up and down. And also, I'd love to know when they did the test of the ban, where it went, because if it didn't cut down our road that can't turn left, they have to go right, and they have otherwise they didn't new turns on myland road. So, anyway, so I think our street is going to be highly impacted by this thing, and having these. And, you know, we all try to object at the beginning, and we will give a no-notice of the planning application, and no reason for that. And I wrote and asked why there was no reason. I was told that the planning officer would get in touch. This never happened. If we'd had some say in that, we wouldn't be in this position now, and why we have to have seven o'clock to 11 o'clock every day for seven days a week. Who wants to buy alcohol at seven a.m. unless they have some kind of alcohol need, in which case, back to my original point. So, there, that's why we'd object, and I would like you, please, to take into account the needs and requests and feelings of local residents. Because, as we said, a hundred times, this is a residential street, this is not an economic thoroughfare. Thank you. Thank you. I think my internet connection here is a little bit ropy, so do let me know if I'm breaking up, and I will turn my camera off. The opportunity to speak, I think the previous speakers have really succinctly put all of the points, and I think I just want to say to the members in the committee, this is obviously a licensing application as the lawyer for Sainsbury's already mentioned in his in his supposition, completely accept that. And there are some, some of the significant proportion of the things that I got from residents from the community have been on planning issues, which is unfortunate because this application has gone through in such a way that we weren't given, or the the notice for the planning application was not as clear as it could have been. So we didn't have an opportunity to to object at that stage. So I think this is the objections that you're seeing here is within that context that there's a frustration within the community that they have not been able to have their say on this. So there are I will say that the resident contact that I had wasn't wasn't 100% against the Sainsbury's, but the vast majority sort of 95% was in objection, and some of the main issues that are and there are also main issue, there are also issues which are pertinent to the licensing application. So I think the issues that Gail outlined around the real concerns around the ease of access for alcohol in the area, and the associated issues that go along with that. So you would have had a you know contribution from the Metropolitan Police, which I'm sure is welcome, but and so that you can weigh up this concern. But I think it's really worth considering. Alcohol is easy to access in the area and you know whether that's something that we want in our community is something for you to decide. So and the other you know the the other really kind of important issue which I'd like to raise is the deliveries and the thought that's been put into how deliveries will be made, how frequently those deliveries will be made and the impact that that will have on the local area. I am just thinking the Sainsbury's just round back of St. Agreeing station which is 300 metres away, I often walk past at odd hours of the day and there are deliveries going backwards and forwards. The pavements are there is a parking space which can be used, but the lorries are not always you know there's just very little space on a quite busy road and quite busy corner. And I've seen bollards being pushed over by these lorries. I have real concerns about how about pedestrian safety in the area. So I think those two issues I would really like you to consider when you know weighing up this application. And I think the other thing is that this issue has generated a huge amount of feeling in the community and I think you'd I really ask you to consider how much the strength of emotion that this has caused and that that has a real you know it will have a real impact on the community. So with that I will say thank you and I think I will switch off my camera as well. Thank you, Councillor. Can I now ask members well typically they were around members 11 opportunity to ask questions now. That could be both to the applicant and to objectors. Thank you. Yeah, Councillor Khan. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, thank you, thank you, presenter and also the resident who have concern about these issues of licensing and the health of the city. My question will be like we can see from all the resident concern, as we can see from all the resident concern as well as our colleague, Natalie, the Councillor and Natalie also she has a concern about as an relationship behavior, also noise also parking issues. Because it is a kind of near to a resident area. So the impact will be very huge for the resident people who live in there, especially the young people. My question to the applicant is what step have you have you proposed to their list? Any more breakout from the deliverrs, vehicles arriving at that and leading the perdices? Thank you, Chair. That's to the applicant. Over to you, sir. So I think the question is what steps can we take in respect of noise break out from deliveries? To address the noise break out? Yeah. So Tom will be able to help with our start. So we try to ensure that we have only the one main delivery per day. So this is not a lot of lorries that are going to be feeding the store. We anticipate that delivery taking place mid-morning, so we're not going to be delivering at a time when the kids go into school or you've got a rush hour. Most of the delivery comes on that single track. There would be bread and milk coming on smaller vans, but they're unlikely to cause any obstruction. And other than that, all of the drivers are trained, and this is something that we've had to learn to do over the years in terms of keeping noise and absolute minimum when deliveries are taking place. But I think the important thing is that we're not going to be delivering early in the morning, certainly not late at night and not early in the morning. Does that answer your question, Councillor? Would you like to hear more from Tom who may have? I could also add, obviously, the way that we've designed the store, obviously, is with the loading restrictions on the road. We're able to stop on Ronda Grove directly next to the store, and we've put us delivery access points in the side elevation, so that deliveries can come straight off the vehicle and straight into the store with the minimum travel distance. We're also then in control of that surface as well, so it's not cobbled or bumpy, it's a smooth tile-max surface, so there's no rattling of cages. As Robert says, we have a fairly standard small 11 metre vehicle that we're planning to use for this site. There's a number of features on there to try and minimise any disruption. So, for example, obviously, when we're making deliveries, the engine doesn't have to keep running to keep everything cool, so there's no reversing sensors, they're all sort of white noise rather than any reversing sensors. In any event, I think, as we were able to demonstrate, we're able to do that loop around, so there'll be no reversing manoeuvres anyway. There's no music played in the vehicles when we're making deliveries, and it tends to be a fairly sort of swift and slick process. So, the lorries have been designed to try and minimise that, and as you say, the way we've set the site up, we're going straight from one door to another, so it should be as quiet as we can make it. Thank you. Thank you. Any questions? Follow-up or any different questions? Fine. Thank you for allowing me and other questions to the applicants. As far as the impression we get from the residents that there is too much alcohol surrounding that area. Only we can exist selling the alcohol to the people around them. From the impression we got that, this will be too much to have too many alcohol silings from the small areas, and that impact will be on residents, as well as the children in the morning time especially. So, what make it that you have to have to sell alcohol to France, where is, what can you do without alcohols, selling alcohol and do other grocery shopping or say to anybody else what impact would be in your business, I think. I don't think that's a licencing factor as such, but I'll deal with the question. In our view, and certainly, the evidence I've seen is not so much about how many places are selling alcohol, but it's how they're selling it and what they're selling, and we don't sell the high strength ciders, the white ciders. We don't sell the high strength beers that tend to be attractive to those who are harmful, harmful drinkers, and those that want to drink on the street. We also have highly trained still colleagues to watch out for known, I don't like the expression, but street drinkers or problem drinkers, and we work with the police and other authorities so that we can exclude them from the store if necessary. In terms of why we're asking for seven o'clock, it's not so that we can sell lots of alcohol between seven o'clock and eight o'clock in the morning, we don't expect to do so. It's about opening the whole of the store at the same time rather than to have to shutter off the part of it and manage that process. Our request is for the 7am, but it's not so that we can achieve, we don't expect it to be significant alcohol sales between seven and eight in the morning. It's about quality of store, and I would hope that the quality that we will bring to this location will be welcomed and that we become part of the community. Again, council, does that answer your question? I'm not having questions. Any more questions? Then if there is no further questions, I would now move on to concluding remarks and I'm afraid, I don't know, I'm sure you want to say something, but I'm afraid I'm not allowed to have cross-examination or anything similar to that, but you'll have each objective, including the applicant, we'll have one minute of final say, that's the concluding remarks, and I'm going to start with the objectors, it can be yourself if you choose to. I'll start, I'll just have a quick question. Again, as I said, this— I'm afraid, well, we cannot entertain questions directly to the applicant from the— the comment was for you, I mean, this workshop is specific because this one is in the residential area and the issue that was raised earlier but parking by the workshop is going to be easy. Its location is already a problem. People are driving from their home to park their car in our street to take the kids to spend their day in London on their work. The streets are busy, the parking are full in the morning because people have dropped their car to park. Every day, you walk there and you see that I am not sure where a parking is going to— a lawyer is going to park to actually do that deliveries. This is going to be interesting. This place is a residential street, which is already being used by people from all around the borough to drop their car during the day to go and work either around the area or take what they were choosing to London. This will be complicated. Thank you very much. Gayle, you have one minute, is your final say. Yes, I completely agree with theiré. It's very true that we have people who drop their cars there and get the Tube into London because it's convenient. They come from further Easter mark there. The other thing is I would love to know what this easy loop is because that's very important because as it is there are traffic restrictions and blocked roads all around there. Also, I don't understand why selling alcohol at 7AM is okay because you're opening the store at that point. I don't understand that rationale. If it's just a case of pulling some shutters down on one counter, why is that so difficult? I don't understand that. The other thing that I'd like to say, I'm sorry, I don't really think it's relevant to say we're only going to sell this kind of alcohol or that kind of alcohol because people have a drink problem, they're desperate, they'll drink anything, and that's documented. They'll drink aftershave and perpium if they have to. So that's not really a relevant thing. I think some of those points are quite irrelevant to the points that we're trying to make. Thank you. Thank you. Coming to Councilor Nachali. You have your final self for one minute, but can I also ask you? You have my reference to in your earlier submission to two issues, prominent issues. Can you just remind me those two issues you want us to consider? Thank you. Yeah, thanks, Chair. So the two issues that I'd like you to consider are firstly the impact of selling alcohol in this area, which is already, as has been discussed, well served by alcohol provision, and secondly, and the impact that that would have on the local community, and secondly, the arrangements that have or have not been made to enable deliveries to the shop. And I think I would just like to emphasize the point that the residents have just made about the fact that this area is used a lot during the day, especially during and the cars will be there during the mid-morning by drivers who drop their cars off and leave them there for the rest for the day, and then they take the tube in from Myland tube. So I think that those two questions still remain unanswered for me. But yeah, thank you for the extra chance to outline them. Thank you, Chancellor, for the opportunity to be confusing, because they're not planning hearings and the question of deliveries and parking are really planning questions rather than licensing. We are here seeking a license to sell alcohol. Alcohol is a part of the main delivery that is on the delivery vehicle, and as I said, that would be one delivery a day. Sainsbury's have to arrange through their logistics team safe delivery access from the street. There is an area where they know they can put their truck, and they have very close access from the truck into the store, but the people who are arranging those deliveries are highly trained. They are very used to dealing with stores in residential areas. Lots of our stores are in highly residential areas. This is not unusual in that respect. I just wanted to address a further point, from the Councillor that the area is already well served, that's really about need, and is not a licensing factor as such. If we were in a community impact area, then the burden would be different, and I'm sure that your legal advisor will be able to talk to you about that. I can explain it if you wish, but this is not in a community impact area, so you haven't ruled that there are too many licenses. The onus is on objectives to demonstrate by way of real evidence that the licensing objectives are going to come to some sort of harm. I would respectfully disagree with the argument that the types of alcohol you sell, and the way you sell it is not relevant, it absolutely is, and if you speak to any of your police licensing officers or your licensing enforcement officers, they will tell you that it's the stores that are selling the single cans, the miniatures, the white letters, the high strength, the super strength, those are the premises that are causing the most problems, and I'm sure as an experienced committee, you will be aware of that, and you will have seen some sort of conditions that are often agreed, sort of limiting so that there's no sale of single cans, there's no sale of high strength. The truck route I were happy to share. I didn't know that I was limited to time, I'm sorry. There's given one minute each. I didn't know that, I'm sorry, I must have missed that. Can I just have one more minute please? Yeah that's fine. Thank you, the question of third party delivery companies, the deliveries, and Uber's has been raised, we've got no plans that we know of to have third party deliveries from this store. The 7 a.m. time is important for us to be able to open the whole store, it is within your policy. I would just stress that although licensing hearings can be frustrating for residents because of the burden of proof, that does come with a sting in the tail, and that is licensed review. So if the licenses granted today and the fears that residents have raised do materialise, then they do have the ability to come back to you, I'd hope that they would build a relationship with us or the other way around and any issues that come to us, but if we can't deal with those, then there is the possibility of a licensed review, and anybody can bring up licensed review, and social reviews are extremely rare, I can't remember the last one that Sainsbury's had and I've acted for them for a number of years now. So we hear these concerns when we apply for licenses, they don't generally materialise, we are within your licensing policy with the exception of the 10th, 30 p.m. to 11 p.m. on a Sunday, and we are also within the government's guidance when it comes to applications of this nature, and so I'd like to ask you to grant the application as a group of the police and as presented to you. Thank you. Thank you for your contributions today, the subcommittee will deliver it in a private session after this meeting ends and see me from democratic services, we'll write to you within the decisions within five working days. Thank you, Chair, I will drop out now as well. You're welcome, thanks. Thanks, have a good evening. You too. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm ready to proceed, and we can wait for other people to join us if that's OK. Seem to announce those in attendance, please. Thank you, Chair, this is item 3.2, application for a new premises for Victoria, Wolf Studio, The ten styles road, the E3 to NT, Chair, we have Mr. Thomas Fletcher as the applicant and the licensing agent. In terms of those that have made representation, we have a cents, a decent information, and I believe PC Mark Perry is in the building and should be joined. After the application has been presented, the applicant will be invited to speak and will be given a total of five minutes to make their representation. The objectives will also begin five minutes each to make their representation. I'll let each speak and know when they have one minute remaining. Please note that the subcommittee have read the Agenda Pack in advance. Thank you. Can I ask Katie Flice as much to introduce the report, please. Thank you, Cathy. This application is for Victoria, Wolf 10's Down Road. The application is for the sale of alcohol for on-sales only and regulated entertainment. The hour was a Monday to Wednesday 11 to 11pm, Thursday 11 to midnight, Friday and 7th Saturday 11 to 100 hours, Sunday 10 to 11pm. The recorded music, obviously, from the application, it does appear that it's only applying from 11 o'clock, but just to clarify in terms of the live music act and the government's D regulation of regulated entertainment, if a premises has the consumption of alcohol on the premises, they can have live and recorded music between the hours of 8 to 11pm without the need of the license, hence the hours is stated from 11pm. The opening hour was applied on Monday to Wednesday 11 to 11th Thursday 11 to 30, Friday and Saturday until 1 30 and Sunday 10 to 11 30, effectively allow on a 30 minute drink up time after the license by activities. In the objections of being made by the police, that can be found at page 161 in ron meant to have for 163 and local resident at 165. There has been conditions offered by the applicant in the operating schedule, that's detailed at page 99 as part of the report, at 0.7 of the report. And there's 17 conditions, one to 17 there that's been offered by the applicant. And also note that the applicant has provided some details of an update of the actual premises and works undertaken and that's at page 128 just after the application where it states they've done some work in terms of triple-glazed windows, fire doors, in-house PA system which is linked to a noise limit and some sound curtains that's been provided and they've also provided photos of some of those works. The plan of the area is at page 149 with the site at 151. We've also detailed premises that licensed again in the close proximity to the application and that's at page 156. We have provided photos of also of the venue, that's at 153 for members information. That really concludes my presentation chair, again if you wish any questions. Thank you. Do you remember those have any questions? Can I ask the applicant to present their application please? Yes, thank you. Vitorial Woff Studios has operated over the last 4 years as a private high multi-space events area hosting a wide range of bookings which is described on page 18 of the application. After making the application and receiving representations from the Environmental Health and Met Police teams we were going to discuss them with both of them and arrange the site to discuss them on the site. As a result of this we've completed remedial works on both staircases repainting them and adding high contrast grip paint to the leading edge of all steps. The stairwell that was raised as a concern in the Met Police Repp has been reviewed at a site visit carried out by James Dokkerdy from the Tower Hamlet Health and Safety team and been doing for years. Additional documents being provided to Met Police team to address their Repp and Vitorial Woff security duties and a more detailed dispersal plan which I only sent over this morning unfortunately. That might not be in here. In response to the Environmental Health Rep and site visit we carried out additional remedial works on the site which were there to assist with sound control. We replaced all the west facing windows with triple glazing and replaced the east facing door with a triple glazed window and installed an acoustic rated high security steel door as a replacement for it. We commissioned the acoustic report that we sent over on Thursday to Nicola which we only received on Thursday unfortunately and haven't actually had a chance to discuss any additional conditions required to try and satisfy the NE H rep. We also didn't want us to get any additional conditions agreed with the Met Police Team which means neither of the responsible authorities have been satisfied to withdraw their Repp's. Happy to discuss additional conditioning. We would however like to keep the applied four times as they directly reflect the times the premises has been used for with very little issue over the last four years. There was tens not issues on Friday until 2am where we ceased sale of alcohol and regulated entertainment at 1am and allowed for a sensible dispersal which to the best of all knowledge unless we get told differently there were no problems at. I've been engaged by Tom to assist with the licence application which will allow for good conditioning and ensure the legal use of the premises making sure that we can move forwards without any chance of breaking the law and future. If you might not grant the licence I will be kept on to implement operational procedures and assist with staff training to further improve the way the premises are run. We are happy to carry on, making further remedial work and working with the responsible authorities to make sure that we don't cause problems in the area. With my experience and Tom's team I'm confident that we can run a safe and sensible premise that I have applied for. Thank you. Now for the members to put the questions. Objectors. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry. Can I now come to the objectors please. Thank you. Thank you, Chair, PC Mark Pray from Police Licensing. I must first start off by recognizing the work that the Africans have done outside Stable has been changed which is really good and made safe and have also got an internal staircase which does resolve many of the concerns we had with regards to safety so they must be congratulated on that. We also recognise the conditions that have been put in place which are based on conditions that we use regularly so we are happy with the conditions that are put in place. I have had a quick look through the dispersal plan sent by Mr. Rose but I think the concerns we have now mainly factor around the sort of noise nuisance to local residents. If you can imagine this area of Hackney Wick is incredibly quiet, there is no through traffic. There are very few businesses there now. It's mostly residential and nighttime economy and if you have up to 110 people leaving in the early hours in the morning in this case one o'clock at night, there may be a factor of them going into an area that is very quiet with the only transport available at that time will be oobas or taxis of people going outside after having consumed alcohol potentially their spirits a little bit high and we know from experience when people consume alcohol their voices do tend to get raised. If you can imagine a group of 100 people outside the venue waiting for oobas to come and be collected, that is sadly going to cause noise nuisance and that is going to cause problems to the residents that have moved there recently. So what we say is we are not objecting to the same approaches shouldn't be allowed to exist it should but what we say is that has to be balanced against the rights of the residents and so we propose that the applicant be limited to 11 o'clock at night for a period of time and if they then prove acceptable that there are no complaints and the issues are resolved then of course they can apply to extend their hours to 1 o'clock then but this is a very difficult decision that you the committee have. It is very much a balancing act between the needs of residents for a peaceful night, families etc and the rights of people to go out and enjoy themselves and the applicants who operate a business and we say that the fairest way that we believe to do that is to allow them to open to 11 o'clock at night prove they can run without any concerns or issues and then apply for extension. I appreciate that the applicant has run a couple of temporary event notices without issue and that is commendable but there is a difference between operating a couple of test events and operating continuously for a year, what we need is a bigger sample we need them to operate for an extended period of time perhaps a year and once they have demonstrated then they can apply for an extension. If I can be any further help chair, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Following on from mouth representation I have had a look at the noise management plan briefly but the fact this venue is located and there is 32 metres away from Beachy Road, there is a long 48-minute metre away and there is concern because there has been a complaint, there has been regular complaints about the whole site of 10 star roads and whilst the applicants say they have been operating for four years we had a complaint not recently but at the end of last year from a resident complaining about that unit, unit four, having an event through Saturday night right into Sunday with music which was concern and a noise abatement notice has been served on the three holders of 10 star roads because we have had over the years, we have had regular complaints about braves operating on that site so but I do appreciate there has been a lot of work to this venue, triple glazing, I haven't got pictures or seen if the works would be done or if there is any certificates that can be produced to show that these works have actually been carried out. If the licence is granted I would ask that it not be allowed to operate until we have satisfied that sound limiter has been installed in conjunction with environmental health team, a certificate has been produced to show that works have been completed and in the report it talks about the pop codes and guidelines for outdoor events, this is assessed as a pub night club venue so it shouldn't be measured on some of the terms that is in the noise management plan but if it is granted I would ask that sound limiter has been installed and in conjunction with noise team, and I say that a certificate is produced to us to show the quality of the works and that have been undertaken, so thank you very much. Thank you, Nagla, now it's time to ask questions, do you remember the questions? To either parties? Yes, I have a quick, yes, thank you, Chair. I have a quick question to the applicant, what does half-an hour make different, like from, from existing hour to new hours, I can see the half-an hour. You want to extend, what does making these stuff, what different does it make in half-an hour? You have a question to who applicant? Sorry, we don't have an existing license at the moment, so this is an entirely new application just to be clear, the additional half-an-hour of opening time is to allow for the meter's dispersal at the end of the night where we would suggest that people wait inside the premises to book things like over so that we don't cause a problem in the street. That's in the dispersal plan that I only sent through today, but essentially the way they would operate is at a quarter at a closing time, we would call last orders, then at closing time all the lights would come up and all the music would cease, there would be 15 minutes of cleaning and tidying and asking people to start booking their journey home and figuring out where they're going, and then for the last 15 minutes of drinking uptime, we would change that too if you could start to see your drinks make your way on wards, that's kind of the core of the dispersal policy, but obviously we would offer people advice and guidance on the best way to move forwards from the premises, as part of our sort of see them on and out, and we would make sure that the security or site's too clear the streets as well make sure that there isn't any noise there, it's quite a long run from the streets, the actual premises itself, so we don't really envisage, we can't hold people against their will, but we would encourage them to finish inside of our controlled area rather than go out into the street, that's what the extra number of opening hours is. Chair, I might be out to just add that from that point up here. Essentially most licensees that have got the sale of alcohol or even food essentially, most premises have approximately half an hour as a term as a drink uptime which effectively is reflected in the opening hours, so essentially you would purchase the alcohol finishing say at 11pm but you'd have half an hour to drink that last drink that was served, so essentially that half an hour is allowed you to drink and then leave the premises. Thank you for the clarification. Also the applicant, your objective is not only the residence, not the environmental system, it's like laundromat police as well. Previously it was from the laundromat police that is a related applicant that the lawyer mentioned by the police page 161 in agenda tax, is it more related to the applicant? My question to the london item section. It's 6.1, 6.1 I say that about the concern about the safety and having the mental status only way in and way out. What have you done about this one? [INAUDIBLE] Yeah, police representation. [INAUDIBLE] The police representation, that is one, is that it was about the staircase. They're concerned about that the only way going in and going out. That one and second one is about the noise mentioned by the police page 161 in agenda that is related to this policy or some others. Chair, if I may, to the Councillor, the applicant has resolved my concerns, our concerns about the staircase, so we're more than happy with that. But the concerns about the noise still remain. Can I just come into that if I'm mistaken, please forgive me. There in the police letter, there have been a number of noise complaints from the venue previously and I have had to remove an illegal party from the venue which has sound, I could hear the venue before I could see it. Are you making reference to that? Yeah. So if you could enlighten us on that. Chair Can I assist here because I think actually we're beginning to drift. And I think we actually need to retain focus as I understand it and the Council will no doubt correct me. He's asking and it is actually two separate questions. So, and they're both to be asked of the applicant. So as I understand correctly of the Councillor, what he's asking is question one on page 113 gender PAC, the application refers to regulated entertainment in the form of recorded music. The question relation to that is does the applicant mean background music by which what is normally meant by background music is you can have, for example, in the restaurant, you and I can have a conversation, this background music, we can hear each other over that as opposed to saying club where you can barely hear yourself over the dance music. So that's question one. The second question that I believe the Council is trying to ask of the applicant is whether with regard to page 161 of the PAC, where the PC Parry's Raised Objections or concerns, what is the applicant proposing to address the issue of the history of noisy music, noisy parties, I think is what I'm saying. I can see Mark Parry is actually nodding. Yes. So there's two separate questions, if that's just the gentleman is on behalf of the applicant. No problem, I fully understand what you're saying there. So the background music is not regulated entertainment, we would be real planned for regulating entertainment. We would be discussing with the environmental health team. We are more than happy to accept the limited condition, and carry out any further works as required and produce work certificate. We're happy to have the environmental health team attend site and set the limit that they require that would satisfy them as a level that is suitable for the timings that we have applied for. I think that probably addresses both of those in terms of the music. What have you done, as mentioned in the police on page 161, about the noise? What have you done about that noise? I mean, we did take our, I don't know, I was trying to find out what noise complaints have been made against us, and we did a freedom of information out. The only noise complaints that we can find specifically related to our unit were on days when we didn't actually have anything booked in on a Sunday night, and there was another one that was on a Monday, which was Colin, the caterpillar, doing rehearsals for a children's show, which we don't feel would have been us making that noise either. We recognise that the 10-star-old workshops can sometimes be quite noisy with the people that live in there because they're quite old, kind of hackney-wick-style workshops, but we don't feel that it was particularly us on those two occasions. The New Year's Eve event that Mark talked about is clearing. Unfortunately, it's one of the reasons that we're applying for the licence, because we would like it to be conditioned and controlled and managed correctly. It was a higher, drier, higher, and the conditions in the higher agreement were that they were not allowed to sell tickets and not allowed to sell alcohol, and unfortunately Mark turned up and they were preparing to do both of those things, so Mark assisted by removing everybody and Tom and him have spoken about it, but it's not something that we want to repeat, which is why we're applying for a licence. Thank you, Councillor, and thank you, applicant. Yes, that's all I understood you were saying. So, if it is the case that the Councillors grant the application tonight, what is it that you're actually asking them to consider by way of conditions? You have the time. The condition with regards to having a sound limiter and setting in conjunction with the environmental health team, and also on the mitigation measures in the noise management plan I don't know if that has already been added, and also about a sound barrier outside as well, I don't know if they've already—that's been added, sorry I'm adding more—the noise management plan you suggested to mitigation measures, the applicants, so I don't know if they are considering those as well, but the sound limiter is the one that we'd be looking at. Thank you. From the back of that to the applicants, I think the Councillors probably would be assisted if they knew what your take, you've heard what Ms. Qadar has said about, would you have any problem with those objections with the Councillors to grant tonight and impose those conditions or conditions to those effects? No, we're happy to have the limiter condition added, no problem, and we're happy to have a condition that is the works recommended in the noise management plan are completed and signed off with environmental health team. We're happy to have both of those things done, so would that include a lobby and any noise barrier? And anything else that's required by the plan, we're happy to do it. Thank you, sir. So just for clarity for the clarity, does this include in your mind an understanding that the entertainment being regulated not past 2,300 hours as suggested by the officers? 2,300 hours is a very early time, considering it has operated for the last four years, a variety of times from basically it's operated as a private hire space for non-ticketed private hire events, and it's regularly operated until 2am, so we've already rolled back an hour from the times that we've previously been operating as a private hire studio. In an ideal world we would really like to try and stay with the 1am finish, if not, I think it's a midnight finish on the Tower Hamlet's licensing policy for Friday and Saturday, is still inside the framework hours and we really wouldn't like to go any earlier than midnight on Friday and Saturday but we could accept 11pm for the rest of the week if that was made in mind to grant the application. Thank you very much, if there are no more questions then we're going to go for concluding remarks and I'd like to hear from the objectors first, one minute each please, thank you. I think it's clear that the applicants have made a lot of work in progressing the application and the main area of concern now is the finishing time which we should say should be 11 o'clock because of the close proximity of residents and from our point of view it's not so much the noise inside the venue is the noise of people leaving. If you consider a venue with 100 people leaving roughly at the same time, that's going to be a lot of ubers coming along and what we say is that the venue must first prove itself at 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock before it can be go to 1 o'clock in the morning. Once that's been demonstrated then of course they can apply to extend their hours and we believe this is the correct decision. Thank you Chair. Thank you. I mean I agree Mark, if the applicant is willing to agree to reduce the hours for the weekend until midnight and the 11 o'clock during the week, if say six months or longer down the line they can apply for a variation to extend their hours till one o'clock and if us do not get any complaints then that would go in their favour and that would be something that would be considered and if the applicant agrees the sound limiter and the two measures with the lobby and then would if that's considered then we'll be happy with that so thank you. It's not just over to the applicant please. Just as I said - just one minute. One minute yeah we would really like to try and keep the 1 a.m. finish. We appreciate the concerns that are raised by the police and the Council. We have been operating for four years doing similar sorts of events. The intention is not to open and every single day public house or license premises it's to allow flexibility in the bookings of the events that we book as a studio so it's not intended to be something that would be repeated every weekend all of the time and it would depend on the bookings that are taken in. We are happy with everything that has been said with environmental health and we understand the idea that we could cry again later for an extension once we've proved ourselves but it is a small business and losing the extra additional hour could potentially impact quite heavily on the ability to make the work ends meet as a business which I realized isn't for consideration and the act normally but it's just for very hard times at the moment. We appreciate how concise everybody's been and thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much for all of your contributions today and the subcommittee will deliver it in a private session after this meeting and see me from the IT services we'll write to you with the decisions in the next five days, five working days and with that you thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Next item in the agenda I have is an application for a variation of premises license for slop noodles, spritten fields, ground floor and basement 62, 62 commercial street London E16LT. And that's the relevant materials can be found within pages 193 to 274. I can confirm that this item has been resolved prior to the meeting and if Simik can elaborate on that I would be grateful. Thank you very much. Yes Chair. Both parties objectors withdrew their objections this morning and therefore the hearing is no longer required for this item and therefore it's been granted. Thank you Simik and thank you Mr. Williams for that. We'll move to our next item which is the extension of decision deadline. Simik, please announce that. Thank you Chair. Can I please ask members to please grant the extension for deadlines for the following application certifying panelli london E17HS House of Music and Entertainmentoyanti Commercial Street London E1, Caffe Saalen, 57 commercial street London E1, Papateau Pizza 391, Cambridge Heath Road, Canary Angel Unit 116, 290 Canada Square London E14, 1 Cha 142 Bethnal Green Road London E2 and Tacotakow 141 Commercial Street London E1. If they can please be extended to September 2024. Thank you Chair. Members do you approve the extension? Yeah. Councillor Cahn, we are just heard the request for extension and I approve it. Councillor Ar [inaudible] We approve it, yeah, okay. Amazing. Thank you very much. With that, we have our next item and should I move into the next item, this is the application for temporary event license for color factory unit 8A quincear 43 white post lane London E95EN and I would request to you announce those in attendance, please. Thank you, Chair. We for this application we have Nicola Gadd, Council for Environmental Health who is acting as the applicant and a person who has made representation against the application. It's Nathaniel Williams who is the premises license holder, after the application is being presented the applicant will be invited to speak and give a total of 5 minutes and the objective will also be given a total of 5 minutes to make your representation and I'll let you know when you have one minute remaining, thank you. Can I ask you--catcheted driver license if I'm still to introduce the report, please, thank you. Thank you, Chair. Obviously, this is a temporary event notice which is a short-term application in this sense is an addition to an existing license. The application is for the sale of alcohol on and off sales and regulated entertainment on Friday the 28 June from 9am until 1am Saturday the 29 June from 9 to 1am and Sunday the 30 June from 9 to 10pm. A premises license is in place, the premises license is detailed at page 23. In terms of the 10 the area replied for is a balcony area essentially and the applicant obviously will expand on that if necessary but it's actually not part of the licensed area that's currently on the current premises license. It's an additional area that they're applying for to use. In terms of the 10 the members can either grant, grant with conditions as per their premises license or refuse the application, Chair, that really concludes. Thank you. Do members have any questions? In terms of the temporary event notice, I'm going to help from police cannot object and have objected to this application. So your question is valid but I will come. Thank you very much, thanks. Now, can I ask the applicant to present their application and you have five minutes there? Great, thank you, thank you, Mr. Williams it will be Nicolas first. Apologies. I'm sorry. So we're going from the representation of the objections first and then yourself. So over to you, Nicolas. Thank you. Thank you, Councillors, I've looked at the temporary event notice. I mean, I have the A's with the applicant as well with Goddess. In environmental health, I can't from a temporary temporary event notice, I can't put any conditions on the application. And the problem I have mainly is I mean, they operate late hours but my problem is the external area. The applicant has applied for the three nights for ID 28 the 29th and the 30th, and on the application, they want to use the mezzanine floor until 0100 hours. And the applicant said they were 830% of their, the inside patrons will, for a temporary event notice alone, you can have up to 499 including staff and that, if that is 30% of the staff, 30% of the applicants to the venue were actually on a minute of mezzanine, that's going to be about 180 people. I'm not sure that 180 would fit on the mezzanine but I have gotten a big concern because there's ongoing complaints from a number of venues, from residents in the area. And whilst I haven't got evidence of a statutory noise nuisance, been established from any of the venues, including colour factory, there have been complaints as recently as the 18th of May and the 13th of June with regards to the venue. So I have to consider the prevention of public nuisance and the cumulative impact, especially at the late hours and the use of the external area until 0100 hours. If the, if Councillors, you will grant this application, I would ask if that the consideration could be given to reducing the hours on the external area, limiting the patrons outside after a particular time, and not allowing regulated entertainment in the external areas. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you very much. I'll be to you, Ms. Odes. Great. Thank you, members of the committee. Thank you, environment, thank you, Agra for raising this. So we are a pretty experienced venue. We operate until 4 AM, most Fridays and Saturday evenings. We have had no evidence of any statutory noise complaints that have been proven against the venue in the four years that we've been open. During the four years that we have been open, sorry. Can you come up? Great. During the four years that we've been open, we have had the downstairs area, which is just below the newly built balcony terrace area, used as a smoking area. Also, at the front of the venue, we have up to sometimes 500 people, to 1,000 people queuing because we're at a 1,000 capacity venue that most UK is two minority communities. We do everything from, you know, children's raves in a daytime to Iranian New Year to wrestling to techno, we have been fortunate enough to be nominated this year as the number one nighttime venue in London by timeout. We do serve the community and minority communities the best that we can. Now, in terms of the noise breakout from people, I know that Nikhala Environmental Health stated that there was a concern of high spirits, so people speaking a loud volume outside the front of venue. Once again, we have had people in that area at smoking late at night and we've had no complaints from any neighbors. One of the neighbors, I believe, complained of some omega works, which is 350 metres always, there is a 50 metre building in the way, so for noise from voices to travel that far, I have an acoustic report here, which I'm not going to ask the committee to consider and read at this late stage, but it shows that it's not unimpossible for voices to travel. Once again, we're very experienced venue, we operate until 4am. This temporary event notice is just to extend that hours from 4am and to 2 hours, which we've done for this particular event more than 8 times. I believe that, cumulatively, all of our temporary event notices over the last 4 years. I believe we've had over 35 temporary event notice granted without any issues whatsoever. She's markers just left, but along with the police, we try to work incredibly closely and we're going to continue to try and work incredibly closely with Nicola to make sure that we are a good ongoing resident and we form part of the community of happy work and good neighbours rather than bad neighbours. Thank you, now it's for the question time isn't it? Members? Thank you Chair. The microphone is sent to the applicant. How do you propose to add this noise blackout affecting neighbour and residents? Well, what we intend to do to limit the noise breakout to local residents, we've just put signs up that encourage patrons to be mindful of neighbours, so to keep noise down. Once again, during the last four years, we've had no noise complaints because that's the security team which is usually between 10 and 15 security, always reminding people to be mindful. When they leave the venue, we have a dedicated area for people to get into taxis and when people are queuing up, coming into the venue, people are always told to behave and keep noise down. So, if we were to have this granted between the hours of four and six, which we'd like to be able to prove that we can operate that area to apply for a variation later down the line, we will be reminding patrons to keep the noise and minimum from their voice and if there is a regulated entertainment in the form of a DJ before 10pm or someone outside will also be monitoring that and limiting that noise. Well, it has for the last four years. So, yeah, they're a great security team. Thank you. Can someone remind me the vicinity of, is this how residential this is? In terms of vicinity, I believe in Nicola's objection, she noted a building called Omega Works, which is 350 metres away, which is a significant way away. There are close to residents, close proximity, but once again, we've worked with them over the last four years to make sure that our noise break out is minimal. We've had so few direct noise complaints for the venue of our size. We are actually the largest black-owned venue in London that we know of. So, it's a substantial distance. Thank you very much. If there are no more questions, then if there are, okay, no more questions. I would like to hear from the African First Nicola in terms of objections, concluding remarks of one minute and then come to you. You'll have one minute. Thank you very much. Thank you. I can't remember the names of the other venues that are close by, but the recent complaint in June wasn't actually from Omega Works. It was from a resident the other side, so it wasn't actually Omega Works, but I mean, the public nuisance doesn't always, isn't just about music, and it is about people, and the only way to restrict the noise from people, because people getting high spirits, they get more lively, is by reducing the numbers outside and not having the music outside, reducing numbers outside after a certain time. They're operating, if people allowed, for example, out to 10 o'clock, and then restricting lesser numbers after 10 o'clock, just if they have to go to smoke or to get some fresh air, but it's the only way to mitigate public nuisance is by those measures restricting the outside area, because we're talking about the mezzanine, not on the ground, because there's a lot of buildings around, but people noise can travel, and you're talking about first floor, mezzanine floor, I think there are pictures actually in the license, in the temporary event documents, so that's all I can say, if the committee had minded a grant, they couldn't consider reducing the hours for the outside area and minimizing the people outside. Thank you. So there are pictures of page 20 of the supplementary agenda for members once or another. As I say, this is a new mezzanine that we're only aware of recently. Okay, thank you, Nicola, over to you now, you have one minute. So thank you for that. So, the new balcony is 3 metres high, it's directly above an area that we already use the smoke in area, the amount of people that we'll have on the balcony, which Nicola rightfully said, will likely exceed 150 people because of the nature of it, that area there is not going to give off much more noise than the area below it, and it's not going to be any more than the people that are actually queuing. As I said earlier, there are up to 600 to 800 people, sometimes 1000 people queuing outside venue, and we've never once in four years had a noise complaint. And I do understand Nicola's concerns, environmental health concerns, about the numbers later on, what we're happy to do, what we stated in the initial temporary event noise is we're willing to limit the numbers after a particular time, to the point of 30% of capacity. And the things that we always want to do in order to keep customers comfortable and safe is to give them a space to go outside and get fresh air. So, limiting that long-term will prevent us from operating as a venue. And, yeah, I'd just like to say that, yeah, thank you, and what we'd also like to do is prove through temporary event notices that we're able to safely manage events without causing public nuisance during these hours, so that we can go on to actually apply for longer variation. Thank you very much. Thank you all for your contributions today, and now the committee will obviously go for deliberation in a private session and after this we'll come up with the decision. [ Pause ] Those are the participants. Yeah. All members of the participants, thank you very much, once again, for your contributions and participation. And now I formally close this meeting. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. [ Pause ]