Transcript

In the event of a fire alarm sounding, please evacuate this room via the nearest available marked fire exit and congregate on the Lwany South Green in front of the Guildhall reception. Lifts must not be used during any evacuation. If you feel stairs would be an issue, then please inform one of the council officers. Please ensure that any mobile devices including iPads are turned to silent or turned off. I'd like to remind everyone present that this meeting will be broadcast live to the internet and will be capable of repeated viewings from archive recordings. Diokhan Vaur, I'm Councillor Carrie Harper, chair of the lifelong learning scrutiny committee. Can I welcome our new committee members, Councillor Frank Hemmings, who is also the new vice chair of the committee. And can I thank Councillor Stella Matthews for her support as the former vice chair. Also a welcome to Councillor Tina Mannerin, who is a new member of the committee. She's given her apologies to put today, but welcome on board to Tina. And can I also minute our thanks to Councillor Corrine Jarvis and Councillor Jerry Wellens who have now left the committee, but we thank them for their work here as well. Also just to update members, as it stands, we currently have two vacancies remaining on the committee from the independent group. So moving to the first item on the agenda, apologies for absence. I've got apologies from Councillors Beryl Blackmore and Tina Mannerin. Are there any others? Nope. Okay. Moving on to the minutes then. Minutes from meeting on the 24th of April and the 9th of May. Somebody happy to move and second those? Okay. All in favour? Okay. Thanks, everybody. Item three, declarations of personal interest. Do we have any? Nope. Sorry, Robin. Pop your mic on. It depends if the conversation moves to specific details on a specific school, then that would be the time to indicate. I think as this is quite a generic report, we should be okay. But as always, it's up to the individual member. Okay. There's no other questions then. We'll move on to the work programme and I'll hand over to Tracey. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, so the work programme is attached to Appendix 1 and there have been a couple of changes. In terms of the impact of budget cuts to schools, that was originally scheduled for this meeting, but that was deferred. It was felt appropriate due to the pre-election period, so that will come to our next meeting in July. Just to remind you about the North Fair Resource Unit Workshop. It's being held next Tuesday as well at 4 p.m. and if members could let me know whether or not they'll be attending that meeting, those who haven't already done so. In terms of budget scrutiny, in addition to the elements which this committee has picked up on for reports to this committee both in the autumn and next year, there was a recommendation from Customers Performance and Resources Scrutiny Committee back in January that every committee should have regular budget scrutiny monitoring reports on their work programmes. So this has gone through the Scrutiny Coordinating Group to look at a process for some consistency across all the scrutiny committees. So we'll be looking at reports and that overview going from the quarter one and the quarter three budget monitoring reports which go to Executive Board. They will come to Customers and Performance in July and February each year and then what they're asking for is that if there are any particular areas of concern that committee will refer them on to the specific other specific relevant scrutiny committees. So they're just asking to put a sort of a reserve slot on your work programmes in the September and the March for any issues referred to Customers and Performance Scrutiny. You'll see there in paragraph 4.11 in that proposed timetable, it does refer to the out-term report coming to Customers and Performance Resources Scrutiny Committee in June as well. But again in terms of pre-election period and report deadlines then that's also been put back to the July meeting. So this committee obviously since January has already scheduled a number of budget reports on the work programme so it may be that you want to stick to the schedule that you already have and any items can be picked up in those budget reports. The only one I would suggest isn't at the moment is sort of for your March meeting to pick up any issues that come out of that quarter three budget monitoring reports going February next year. Are there any comments on that chair before I move on? Any comments on that? So we've got the budget item on the 11th of July. We've got a slot for budget already set aside in October so I think it makes sense to keep that and to keep us in line with the recommendations from CPRG if we reserve a slot in March. I think I think that covers most of it. Stella and Robert, you're next. Well as Tracy has already said CPRNG are not meeting this month because of the reports not being ready but it's on the agenda for the July meeting so hopefully that'll come in detail to this committee following that July meeting. But I think the importance of looking at budgets on a regular basis I think is an important one. Thank you chair. Thanks Stella. Robert Ian. I know this is in retrospect to the minutes but I whoever compiled these notes I feel I have not represented some of the concerns I raised in the Welsh in education strategic plan and I'll allow that to be placed on the record please. I think you'd have to be you'd have to be specific and simply count we count just minutes just something generic and we've already approved the minutes Robert Ian. I just feel whoever's made the notes have left important pieces out which can be viewed actually online can't they? The minutes are a summary of the meeting discussion can I suggest that you contact Tracy after the meeting if you've got specific concerns and don't worry just to qualify that a little bit in terms of detailing in terms of exactly what you need. Okay thank you. Brendan. Pop your mic off Robert Ian please. I can't agree with Robert on that I don't know what he's talking about but that's up to Robert. I'd just like to say thank you to Tracy for continually producing these reports and trying to keep us up to date. I very much appreciate your efforts Tracy thank you. Okay I can't see anybody else indicating on the timetable for budget monitoring then so I could just ask if everybody's happy with what's been set out. Okay okay Tracy. Okay thank you chair and then just just a couple of the proposed changes so as you know the school improvement monitoring group that meets once each school term and uses one of the committee dates unfortunately because the autumn there are quite a few items scheduled we'll be looking at arranging a separate date for that but it is suggested that as there are no items scheduled yet for the for the April meeting but that is one of the meetings that could be allocated for a meeting of that group and then finally just an update really in terms of the recommendations to executive board regarding capital funding the education estate you may recall there was a recommendation from this committee that the capital receipt from any disposals of school assets be ring-fenced to support the 21st century schools program and there was a report on capital funding for schools originally scheduled for the July meeting of executive board where that recommendation and a response would be included but unfortunately that has been put back to September so it's just an update as to where we are with that particular recommendation and we'll report back once that's been through meeting of the executive board thanks chair. Okay deal Tracy. Any other questions on the work program? Stella. Just the point I raised earlier chair that I know speaking to other councillors and myself I've had several points raised on the quality of free school meals so I hope the report that's due in September is detailed and you we get the information we need to make the appropriate decision because I've had some specific concerns raised which I'll pass to you as chair. Thank you chair. Robert Ian. I'm also concerned about the meals and the time that is allotted for school lunches in school time I feel that they become shorter and shorter. Okay thanks both I'll pick up both of those comments when we have the call over meeting for September as well. Any other comments on the work program? Okay we'll move on to agenda item five an engagement of pupil voice I'll hand over to Phil and Jonathan. Thank you chair firstly I'd like to introduce Jonathan Miller who's our lead education officer on well-being. Donna Dickinson is here too as the head of service for prevent and support and Karen Evans who I believe everybody knows. Can I thank the committee for inviting us to present this report to you today on the work the important work that the education department does to engage with people and the people voiced to ensure that we are cited on what pupils are telling us and to support schools in the challenges that pupils are highlighting to us. I think the report is quite comprehensive and I look forward to the ongoing discussion that takes place. Also I can't believe it's what six years plus that this committee set up a task and finish group to look at period poverty at the time and it's just evident that that was a very positive piece of work that was carried out by this committee then because the positive outcomes of that committee. Just pause there we seem to have lost the online connection. Sorry Phil to stop you mid flow but just find out what's going on. Okay seems we've got the internet connection just dropped out just see if it kicks back in. Just to let everybody know the webcast is still live the problem does seem to be with zoom so we're going to carry on trying to let members back in. Interestingly according to the legislation as long as there's more members in the room than are online we can we're okay to carry on so I think we'll just restart that again Phil if that's okay. I'll keep it brief yeah just thank the committee for allowing us to present this report to you today and hopefully you members will go away with a high level of a reassurance that as a department we're doing everything we can to engage with pupils and to support schools in that engagement with pupils to understand what what is affecting their lives in and outside of school to improve their opportunities to be educated. So I'll leave it at that and invite officers if you wish just to introduce the report and then we'll open to questions. You can raise the point of order yes. Can I just ask why aren't there any pupils here today? That's a very good question. I don't know if it was up to the committee themselves to invite or maybe it's an oversight on our part too. I think it's a very fair point it was something that was going to be raised actually as part of the discussion but I think that's very relevant and something maybe when we look at this report again we do need to make sure that pupil voice is there and maybe we have someone from Seneddery Bank around the table but we'll pick that up as part of the discussion Robert Ian but yeah a valid point. Thanks councilor in afternoon committee. Just to give a little bit more detail on the other report so there's two elements to this report. First is where we're outlining how we're engaging with young people to colorate the work we are doing to undertaking on pupil well-being and the second part of the report then is to provide an update on the work we've been doing in relation to period poverty. So just in relation to the first part of that report we've just we've tried to outline and demonstrate how we engage with with young people and how we do that on a number of different levels. So the first part of that is how we use data from surveys and sort of our whole population level and we're using data there to track trends, measure impact, highlight any emerging issues. Obviously members will be familiar with how we've used significant surveys such as PASS and SHERN. The majority of our schools continue to use PASS and all secondary schools participated in the SHERN survey this time. Schools are just getting that data back now and over the summer we'll be analyzing that and I'm sure bringing you a further update on that once we've got the the county level information. Then under that sort of population level that survey information obviously the second element how we work with young people and it is in terms of the senate so how they bring it issues to our attention as officers and how also we use and test our thinking out with that with that group of young people. The senate themselves also undertake a number of surveys and often the topics and the key issues that are identified are issues that affect young people's well-being. The report then gives some examples some of the work that they've been doing around mental health they've been working really closely with the health board to improve some of the provision there but also working closely with our schools to ensure that young people within schools are reporting on any issues that affect them and how they've been supporting other groups of young people to access funding which the senate themselves oversee. And then the final element of the report seems to be engagement with people voices then how ours individual services within the department actually engage all services engage with young people specifically themselves and we've used an example from our youth justice service so it's some work that they've been doing as well so in somebody just in terms of three levels is that population survey level there's the senate level and then work in within individual services as well. Then the second part of the report is an update on the work we've been doing on period poverty and as Councillor Wynn mentioned as you know it's only right that we remind members that it was a task and finish group of this actual committee back in 2018 it seems a long time ago now that instigated the work of this in rexham and I think it set us in a really good position to take that forward when further funding came through. I think the journey we've been on and the impact we've made there is it's been significant and something we you know we can hopefully be proud of. All schools now receive products and the range of those products that schools are provided with continues to develop which is based on feedback we get from young people and the work that the team the healthy schools team do in schools working with them. We're also now distributing products through a number of community organizations and we continue to grow those those organizations we're working with and are always welcome to have further ideas thoughts you know from people like yourselves who are obviously working closely in communities to increase that distribution and one thing we've been working on recently is to to ensure then the public are aware of where they can access those products and we're about to sort of launch an information page on the on the corporate website and do some some media around that as well. So two elements of today's report happy to take any questions. Okay thanks Jonathan just ask any other officers want to make a comment before I bring members in? No okay Stella? I did mention to Robert that it would be nice to see some youngsters here I'll keep my suggestions to myself in future Jeff but on the grant panel I'm I wonder if you could give us some examples of what young people have done with the funding and how enterprising they've been and in future if we could have pupils here to tell us in their own words how beneficial they've found the process it would be good thank you. The grant scheme has been rolling for a number of years now so there's lots of money being given up lots different I don't have this year's in front of me but I can certainly find that and share it so you'll be able to see the range of activities and programs that have been funded originally when we started out with it we young people could bid in for larger amounts of money and actually we have fewer applications for it so we reduced the the grant sum and then we had more bidding for it I don't know whether young people felt it you know they wouldn't get it but as it turns out we've been able to fund lots and lots of smaller grants to more young people and more young people's groups so I can ask for a list of that from the Senate because they obviously oversee it and where the grants have been allocated this year in terms of young people attending obviously the report covers more than pupil voice it's covering obviously the voice of young people in general so we've got young people also who are post 16 so if we can have a think through in terms of what groups of young people so do we want representatives of the school council forum for example to come in the future maybe to speak about the work that they're doing I was very fortunate to attend one of their events and they were talking about some of the key issues for them and one of them was school meals which was mentioned earlier and then we've got other groups obviously youth justice young people etc so if we could have a think maybe around who we'd want to bring along with us in the future to talk about the wide range of well-being issues that affect different groups of young people including school pupils thanks for that Donna so did you say that school councils representatives was that the beauty of the group yeah we we support the old center bank support school councils in terms of they have a forum and they run events every few months where they bring them together and it's about enable young people and the teachers that support them and other staff in school to understand about how you engage young people also our young people are able to articulate their views etc so we bring representatives from all of the secondary schools together and then they can work on shared issues key issues etc and it empowers them them and they're back in school as part of the school councils to develop their knowledge really around democratic decision-making etc okay thanks back Stella but that sounds great really but I wasn't expecting you to get a full list of the successful grants but one or two good examples would be would be worthwhile I think thank you thanks so I'm just gonna bring frank in before brendan because it's on this issue yeah thanks this delay in in zoo made me realize one thing that a large proportion of my pupils in my area go out of county so do we have any feedback from denvershire regarding say langothlin oh I don't know that I presume there's some go the across the border to flincher as well we're just interesting to know how they compare with with us are you able to ask denvershire for that sort of information as part of the what's called the north wales adieu group north wales directors group we do we do work and liaise with you know our colleagues and other authorities across the north and actually across wales really quite closely and in the I think it's the clangothlin corridor area isn't it that it was referred to historically there are links between you know obviously some of the feeder schools that where the children have historically gone to to denis brown so there are links on a number of levels and there are obviously links between services you know so you know picking up issues around attendance curriculum teaching and learning curriculum development and so on because we do work quite closely together and we also look very closely at you know where our pupils are going we want to obviously encourage and support as many pupils to remain in rex and be educated in our rex and schools as possible but we do we do look at that and we do discuss where we're seeing trends patterns issues challenges and so on and we're quite fortunate I would say in the north that we have got well established networks between people like me officer and officer level senior officers and obviously networks across our schools and I think one of the things that has been positive is that really positive is obviously that those networks have developed at all layers of organizations as we've worked in a regional consortium setting I know council win has links with other lead members across the north so there's a lot a lot going on thank you thanks for that is it on this issue frank it's on yeah brendan in first and i'll bring frank back in thank you carrie um first of all i'd like to thank the officers for what they do in terms of enabling uh pupils to have the voice that they have these days in in our schools um i've worked with jonathan a number of times over many many years and uh his input have been fantastic and very helpful to you know other colleagues i had and still know um bringing in useful information from things like pass to utilize to benefit pupils in terms of support to improve their well-being to add all sorts of value to school life for pupils who may have gone under the radar a little bit prior to those um processes taking place without getting bob down in too much budget detail we're all very aware of those difficulties at the moment within uh certainly within the authority and i'm just wondering certainly heads i've spoken to very very recently are anticipating a lot of the work that they've done perhaps employing staff to assist with giving these benefits and help to certain pupils reflecting details that have come out in data like pass or whatever um do you foresee a negative impact on schools perhaps because of this um and therefore you know the work that i know schools are very innovative innovative and they'll try anything to even but i'm just worried about obviously there has to be some sort of impact the impact i've seen over the the years has been so so positive and you know i personally as i uh in my headship position i couldn't thank jonathan enough for what he highlighted and helped to us to engineer my fear now is the impact of the situation we're in nobody's fault but that obviously may have an impact on what is available to pupils or perhaps the quality and the amount of what we can give to me it has to thanks brendan i'm happy to respond to the question it's a valid question brendan and that at this moment in time as a department we don't fully understand the complexity of the impact of the cut on school budgets that schools have had to face this year um we are bringing a report to this committee next month to start that conversation schools have obviously identified a number of staff that have faced voluntary or compulsory redundancy that's information we'll share with you we are trying to find out what therefore the impact will be for the individual schools that have faced that and there's nothing to say that you know there has been a delay in the system that other schools will ultimately have to face similar tough decisions as regards to stuff they have on their books simply to balance their books going forward so it's not going to be easy because it was a significant saving efficiency saving whatever you want to call it that we've asked schools to deliver this year but we will bring a report to you next month to start that conversation because really until we need the schools to share with us what what they believe the impact has been for them individually and some schools will have been in a better position to manage that than others thank you chair thanks phil i mean yes i appreciate that and i think if we're honest there has to be an impact somewhere what worries me a little bit and as i said i don't want to get this conversation bogged down with budgetary talk but it does impact on it um jonathan and his team as well have had a fantastically positive impact on schools over the good many years and you know i would imagine jonathan is perhaps facing similar restraints in his team and the knock-on effect with that is the tentacles won't be able to go as far into schools and to touch the lives of the children we all care so much about that's what terrifies me a little bit because those processes have identified those children due to that remarkable work that they've done and schools have put perhaps operations in place employed staff used perhaps deprivation grants or whatever to employ staff and now we wait to see what the impact will be i just hope schools are always have innovative ideas but they can only go so far thanks thank you for your honesty thanks i think you know the overall picture is i think we are in a pretty good place and i suppose it's that assurance isn't it going forward um in terms of budgets maybe something we can look at in a bit more detail in the next meeting brendan as well um i'll bring in frank yeah thank you um 4.7 to 4.10 there's some quite interesting information there on page 33 first of all 1052 contacts i think the um the adults could learn a little bit from the children when we do surveys in the council we don't normally get so many contacts and i think that's commendable and good information i would imagine cost of living and how this is affecting young people and if you could expand a little bit on that is that with regards to their mental health and personal circumstances and then moving on from that there's a lot of involvement with senator frank and cams so i'd just like to you know a bit more background on that and hopefully going on from what robert was saying we'll bring the children in the students in at our next um next meeting not next meeting but next next time we do this in scrutiny thank you yeah it is commendable really for the senator bank and the number of young people and that was just through the ballot obviously they're in touch with lots of young people all year round um and that is down to the fact they've built really good relationships with the school so the schools are really really supportive when we do the survey um and enable um children young people to take part in it and the cost of living is the priority for the next couple of years um and that mainly became about because of impact on parental mental health it came through loud and clear that um children young people are seeing the pressures of the cost of living on their own parents and carers um also about their ability to be able to access um activities etc um as i say school meals comes up a lot so that ability to you know to be able to eat but a lot of it is what they're seeing within their families and the struggles that they are having and then obviously that impacts on the well-being of young people you know they feel quite responsible really they want that you know one of the things that came out was that they'd like to be able to get jobs at an earlier age so they can help the family finances um so this is a topic that we are going to be looking at i'm actually meeting with the senate management group next monday because we're doing another piece of work um within the education department linked to child poverty and what we're going to try and do with is link it all up together so we haven't got the senate doing their work and also doing ours that actually will work together on on that piece of work and see how broad it's going to be so it'll be interesting as they start to work through now with an action plan of what they do contain in their actions because they're just at the start really of that piece of work but yes that's where it's come from it's just come from the world around them and what they're seeing in their own homes and in their own schools really thank you and the cams involvement as well thank you yeah and with the cams um they've been working with cams for some time really around um the the physical environment for young people when they're engaging with cams so they've had quite a long relationship with them um so they've done a lot of work they've worked really closely with our hospital youth work project inspire who work in tandem with cams um so they've done a lot around if you go into cams now down the corridors it's more child-friendly etc and then they've done a bit of a big piece of work working with young people on an outside area and so if you're ever up at the hospital and you go past the child development center and you look to just to the back of it you'll see like a really nice gazebo there um they're doing all the planting in that area so that's all being developed in partnership with young people accessing cams um and our senate working really closely with the college as well because they've come and helped us with the gazebo so it's been a while in the making but they have the opening event of it a few months ago that we went along to um and all the partners were there who've been working on it so it was really about making access um to to cams more child-friendly rather than that medical environment that young people have been going to and the children have been going to so that's the piece of work and i think that work i believe is ongoing on other areas um around well-being and the senate feeding into the work of cams thanks for that donna um i think robert you in the next and then stella um some while ago i remember in the local press it being reported that pupils at a particular secondary school in rexham had risen up with sensible intelligent pupils and that they had said that there we were being denied an education because of the lack of discipline in the school and uh an unruly element was preventing them having an education now i thought that was admirable and very courageous at the time and i would like to extend this inquiry into young people into the continuity that they're getting in education because as i've said before supply is is that the schools are very dependent particularly on supply and there's continuity of of teaching and some pupils have not had teachers who are qualified in that role so i think that that needs to be an area i would like to look at as regards a future inquiry as regards uh pupils okay thanks robert ian um i've got to be honest i'm not there's nothing jumps to mind in terms of any reporting on that i know the reflection from the data says there's high levels of satisfaction that's what's coming back from schools but maybe if you've got a specific concern about a specific school that would be best raised um with phil and johnathan outside the meeting to get so they've got a bit more detail and we know exactly what what you're referring to there as well yes well i'd just like to say well it's quite obvious i mean we've got schools which are in in and out of special measures so i think that there is an issue lying there behind this and we must look at it because a child only has one chance with their education and it will be crucial for many pupils so i really would like that area to be explored at because i've been in at the opportunity at one time in my career to be in several schools when i actually did supply and it was unsatisfactory in some areas so i do think that the children deserve that and we must need and look at that thank you thanks robert ian again i would say if there are specific um areas concerned about specific schools they're best raised with officers after the meeting okay um stella brendan thank you uh donna you've gone into a little bit of detail there about the link with cams and all the rest of it um which is fantastic and the work and we're actually seeing it as well it looks great um how you know when we're talking about giving children students pupil voice and the chance to perhaps be understood or be supported is it still very very difficult to access cams for our pupils it's a very difficult question for me to answer because obviously cams um have been addressing waiting lists etc and they have their own targets that they have to meet um i'm sure we spoke to parents but children some parents are going to say that they are having to wait you're going to have um others are going to say they've had a really good service so it's really difficult for me to comment on that jonathan though does a chair a well-being group that can sit on so if i hand over to jonathan who can talk about some of the work that we're doing we're collaborating on um because as well as having cams we do have our counseling service we have our inspire hospital youth work project there's lots of other things going on to support well-being so if i just hand over to jonathan to talk you through that i think you know it's fair to say since since covid we've as we've discussed this committee previously we've seen an escalation in need and high demand across a number of our services our own sort of early intervention services um don't hold a specific detail on cam sort of waiting lists and times at the moment but i think it is quicker for assessment than it has been um i think that does sometimes get confused obviously with access to their sort of neurodevelopment team which sometimes people think is is the same service i believe that access to that element is still significant and a long time but actually access into their the cams team is is quicker than it has been because of work they've been doing around their waiting lists um i think what we ultimately all want to try and do is is prevent the flow to those services and that's where the works we're doing universally across schools and you know come back to some of the your earlier point around the support that we've been putting in over a number of years um five ways to well-being getting kids to do more music art drama sports you know having that early support there through some of our youth services counseling services that's where we you know we've been keen to focus building capacity within schools themselves to be able to respond to need first hand rather than having to refer onto a service because i don't think any of us want young people waiting on waiting lists you know that there's nobody any favors as such um but you know as donna said we are working really really closely with maximizing our resources as much as we can um but you know some people are still having to wait an awful long time for service aaron thank you thank you chair you know i think it's fair to say that you know we're working as effectively as we can as partners um but there are still challenges um and there are a number of reasons for those challenges um one reason for the challenge obviously is that we're seeing an increase in complex need post covid um you know which was difficult to predict obviously and requires a partnership approach in terms of addressing and mitigating risk around um i think both jonathan you know and donna you know absolutely right when you know we're emphasizing the fact that we need to be thinking about early intervention and prevention so we need to think about preventative services to stop escalation of need and we're doing as much as we possibly can as a service and working with other services across the council to put robust strategies and interventions in place to support where we can and next week when you come to the members workshop around nodba you will see some of the things that we've we've done there however what is a challenge is there's a limit to what we as a service and what educationalists can do because there are some children who require medical assessment support and intervention you know so as much as we're working well in partnership we recognize each other's challenges we're trying to be as innovative and creative and flexible to support need as we can the reality is on the ground it is still very challenging thank you stella thank you chair i recognize that um education is limited how much they can influence a service that's um run in the nhs and all we can do is um work as closely as possible and influence where we can but um in a meeting in the last couple of weeks i was told that the waiting time in cams has gone from four to five years for a lot of children and i had a conversation following a workshop we had here on um autism that um a lot of families are paying for their assessment because they can't get it done through normal channels and children if they're waiting five years how much education are they missing in that five-year period if they haven't been properly assessed it it's out of our control but it's part of our responsibility to educate children it's such a difficult one thank you karen um i think um you know obviously as you say there are some things that we can contribute to there are some things we can influence and maybe there are some things that we can control um what i will say is a some way reassurance is that our schools our teachers and staff in schools are working really hard really empathetically and really sensitively to support the needs of individual learners as best they can to ensure that children access as much of an education the education that they're entitled to um and that they um deserve and um schools are working very flexibly and having to think about reprioritizing maybe um to ensure that they're focusing on need and we're very fortunate that our schools are very good and very effective and very committed as you've seen previously when head teachers have come to the committee in doing so but the reality is as you say there's only so far that educationists can go and there is a point at which we do need the right medical diagnosis like assessment potentially diagnosis and support um to meet need and i think there are two two sort of facets aren't there to the service one is the cams service where as you say jonathan we're seeing some inroads into reduction of waiting lists and so on and i know you work very closely with that um side of the service then the other side of the service which is the neurodevelopmental assessment side is the side where you know we are still seeing um delays um in terms of progressive assessments okay thank you brendan thank you chair uh thank you karen um very very difficult situation and it's not one to be um you know very very difficult to tackle the thing that perhaps worries me again you rightly mentioned karen early intervention it has to happen and a lot of the processes that perhaps colleagues and ex-colleagues of mine and i certainly did have brought early intervention to the fore where the very methods and processes and data that jonathan was bringing into schools and help and don helping us with um again i just hope and pray that those processes are not impacted too negatively in the coming months um not your fault i think the work you do is fantastic and the other difficulties here that you're dealing with uh neuro and medical we're education and that's a difficult ball game but i i do fear a little bit with those processes being impacted negatively in the future i know schools are very innovative and they will do the best and they'll take on ideas and they adapt but um it's going to be a difficult journey i think but thank you karen thanks for the comments brendan um just not i think zoom has kicked back in um i'll let karen respond and then i'll bring robert you know i think um early intervention in itself is quite complex because there are different types of early intervention you know so it's the early intervention strategies that you can put in to stop something happening but then there's also intervention in terms of strategies that you would put in to stop a need escalating and the challenge for us in schools is when we're looking at putting the right strategy in place to stop a need from escalating then you can only do that if you have a proper understanding and assessment of what the need is so there are challenges around early intervention and prevention and when we talk about early intervention and prevention and we need to do it better it's not going to solve everything because there are different facets to it so i think that that is important because our schools work very hard to put the right strategies in place but to be fair they can only do that if there's an accurate understanding of need and sometimes that need cannot be determined by educationalists because it might be a medical need so thank you robert ian um i'm new to this so i don't know about the research that's been done about the background to the access for cams but is there a socioeconomic link with the schools where whether there's a is there a predominance of of of this need in certain areas linked to economic and social issues and then another quick question we've got lots of religious schools in in this borough is there any correlation that a school with a spiritual input has any beneficial effect has any research been done into that thank you we did we did ask this question a couple of years ago did we have cams and we asked them to let us know and actually um there's no particular if we talk in terms of schools we ask the question are we seeing young people from any particular schools coming through more it was fairly evenly spread wasn't it so there was no you know we couldn't look at any and go right that's where we need to put the resource um we haven't run that exercise again with them um we can ask cams about that but as i say they they would notify us via jonathan's group because that's one of the things they look at if we're seeing particular peaks in certain areas or schools i don't know whether you want to add anything yeah we we we did look at that post-covid in terms of mittens to hospital to see if there was a particular school that we needed to target and don't say that it was it was a quite even spread actually um in terms of actually understanding further cams data that's some work we're doing under our early help and prevention partnership and that's one of our target actions this year to look at further data to see you you in terms of the data we've got that we share with you but also have some of that data back from the health board so that is an action we're looking to take forward with them to understanding their generic referrals as such you know what patterns in terms of age gender school communities so that's something we definitely take forward but when we looked at it post-covid and we were working with them then on a on a weekly basis there was no specific pattern i'm not aware that there's been any research undertaken um yeah thanks for that um i've got one question and one wants more of a comment really um just a question on um page 33 in terms of who's completed the past survey when we've had reports previously we've had specific numbers i think there were 44 primary school seven secondary in the pro it says this time that most have completed is it on a par is it less is there any more detail on that please yeah obviously schools but complete pass at a time that most benefit to them in the school year we're not dictating to school what time of year they do that so some will do that early part of the term as a it's almost a getting to know your class type activity some will do at the back end of the year is more of a transition activity um so at the moment there are some schools doing it live as we speak at the moment this summer term as such because i know i've been sorting out logins for some of them still um i think we're probably going to be on a par by the end of academic year in terms of the number of schools have previously done it there is a handful of schools who've not accessed that they probably use other surveys but you know we're still offering that to all schools but at the moment the number of peoples have computed this academic year is lower than previous years which isn't why i've drawn too many conclusions because the cohorts would the size of the cohort would be different but by the end of the year i would imagine that those like those numbers will be similar okay thanks for that jonathan um the other comment i was going to make was um at the start of the meeting phil referred to the period poverty task and finish group and it's really good to see um in this report that actually pupils are able to access products directly now because when we did the survey and tracy worked really hard on this we had 500 students respond to it teachers got involved and they were really clear about wanting to access without asking permission and i remember there was a little bit of reluctance and kick back about that at the time but it's nice to see even though it's a few years down the line actually that um that's come right and pupils can now access products it's a good link i think isn't it in terms of how pupil voice has directly impacted um a service on the coalface i think it's a really good example um i know frank you were involved with that work as well so it's just more of a comment rather than a question but um yeah really nice to to see that in the report karen i think what's really positive is that when you go out into schools you can actually see this now embedded in terms of business as usual so it's it's standard practice within our schools so you know it's moved from this is the kind of vision to the development to the implementation to is actually now standard practice so i think that is very positive for our pupils we've really come so far on this and you know it did start as that i remember being on the task and finish group myself um obviously distribution methods are up to the schools it's for them to determine and you know if we ever find out that young people can't access we'll go in we'll challenge and we'll work with them we'll give them ideas on how we do that but the recent survey we did the response was low so i think we can almost in terms of feedback to that because i but that almost tells me it's not an issue now is when we initially did that first survey going back in 2018 that that response was so high and you know that drove the work that we did um but i think it is a real example of how the culture and sort of people's thoughts around that has really moved forward and you know hopefully all young people now have got access okay thanks for that jonathan i can't see any other members um indicating what one thing that has come across clearly is that uh when we do look at having this again members feel quite strongly we need that pupil voice around the table so before we get to recommendations just to check then in terms of who that should be um we're probably looking at maybe a rep for senator Ivanka uh youth justice service potentially and uh school council rep does that sound about does that cover everybody okay just wanted to make sure we're not we're not missing anybody um i don't know if members have got any thoughts in terms of recommendations one thing i was going to suggest was there's lots of crossover with pupil well-being um is that going forward that we merge the um pupil voice report and the well-being report i think that's scheduled for march at the moment but um we do have a space in january um we could bring that report forward to jan and then the shirring data will be there for us to to have a look at as well and we can make sure um we make sure that pupil voices around the table in scrutiny as well um if members are happy with with that as a suggestion um i think i think we've got some assurance there haven't we that um that we have got a sufficient range of mechanisms um in place that engage with pupil voice and that the key messages from that engagement um are informing service provision i think that would be fair to say from the report um and i think whilst acknowledging we can't influence cams i think there should be you know committees concerns about some of the extensive waiting times income should be um should be noted as well i don't know if if people have got anything additional they'd like included stella if the officer could take our concerns back through his position in cams it would be helpful because in the workshop on autism there were several concerns raised frank and then i'll bring robert you know yeah i think thank you to the senate would be appropriate from this committee the information that they've contributed is invaluable isn't it so thank you to them for participating in questionnaires and and all those areas yeah happy to incorporate that robert ian i'd like to encourage further research into where the need is most with the camps by looking at individual schools and finding out obviously in a private way that it's not you know published names or anything but we we know where there are areas where there are needs and i think that's very important thank you i think yeah you did say jonathan the last bit of information was quite a while ago so if there's anything additional on you we could incorporate that into the um hopefully the report that's coming in january then okay can i ask if members are happy with those recommendations yeah people indicate please move those sure thank you okay can i thank um officers for the report um you're welcome to leave with it we've got one more item to cover okay okay we'll move on to um item seven then so that's uh feedback from the last school improvement working group so um just for the benefit of new members this is not an item for discussion but it's on the agenda just to update you um as soon as possible following the last school improvement uh working group so you're not waiting for an annual update on these meetings um the last meeting was held with a scholar grango and i'll just read out the letter that was sent to the school following the meeting the group was assured that the head teacher had a clear understanding of where the school is on its improvement journey and we were pleased to hear about the increase in membership of the senior leadership team the group was assured that a number of new processes policies and systems have now been put in place we do however recognize and appreciate that there will be challenges around reduced budgets and leadership capacity in the future the group would like to see further details of the impact of these changes on pupil outcomes once the changes have had more time to bed in we also suggested that the school may wish to consider strengthening the governance arrangements by making use of the local authority clacking service members of the group will also raise awareness of the vacancies on the school governing body within their community so that's the update from the last school improvement working group and on that note i will bring the meeting to a close the open power