Transcript

Good to go. Thank you and good morning and welcome to our June meeting of the Flood and Water Management Scrutney Committee. I am Councillor Tom Ashton, the Chairman of the Committee and to my right is my Vice-Chairman and Councillor Susan Knutman. Welcome, likewise, to those people watching the meeting online and those joining the meeting online, likewise. I will remind you that all comments will remain accessible as the recording will remain on the County Council website. There is no planned fire drill this morning. In the event of the alarm sounding, we will need to leave through the rear doors and reception to the front car park. Please ensure that mobile laptops, et cetera, are silent for the meeting. We will move on to the formal part of the agenda, which is Apologies for Abstance and Replacement Councillors. Thank you, Chairman. We have received apologies from Councillor Helen Crawford and Andrew Higgs. Thank you very much. I am very pleased to see that we have got a good turnout this morning. Unfortunately, some of our storm impact working groups have been a bit thin lately, and I am concerned that looking back over the attendant for this committee and that storm impact working group, that there are parts of Lincolnshire that have not been represented either adequately or at all. So I shall be writing to respective councils and leaders and whips flagging some of that up, but I am really pleased to see that everybody is here more or less today. That takes us on to item two, which is the Declaration of Interest. Does anybody have any Declaration of Interest? Seeing nothing, if anything does come up, by all means, wave at me. Item three is the minutes from our last substantive meeting of this committee, which was held on the 19th of February, and that confirmed the minutes on pages five to thirteen of our Pat Councillor Barney, please. Thank you, Chairman. I would just like to refer to page eight, I think it is, where we have third bullet point down there, some residents have expressed dissatisfaction. I am just wondering whether the word 'some' really adequately describes the number of people that I certainly have come across, and I think other Councillors as well, and I just wonder if we would be better off putting many, because some just rather suggests a few, whereas I believe it is quite a major issue in the area. I am quite happy to take that amendment and Councillor Vaughn, please. Thank you, Chair. It is just the minute 25 on page nine, it is about EEA, and it says there has been sort of thirteen breaches on main rivers. I wonder if there could have been updates on how it has been repaired, and also further down on page nine, some of our DB's have put some claims in for flood stations because of the floods. Have they been reinstated or claimed to be accepted, and the final one, which is not on this minute really, is only if anybody here or the EEA could tell me when the rhythm was de-seated, or when is it going to be done? Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Vaughn. Unfortunately, the environmental agency aren't able to join us, because they're citing the pre-election period as a reason that they can't attend this kind of public-facing meeting. I am sure we can pick up on Garra. Thank you very much. Any questions that are raised today that are pertinent to the role of the Environment Agency will be taken back, and we will liaise with them and provide responses. Thank you. Thank you. That was a request I was about to make, and we have IDB updates later on the agenda. Councillor Fleetwood. Yes, just picking up on Councillor Vaughn's comments. Last October, the river with them at Fiskerton had two fairly severe slippages on it, and as far as I'm aware at the moment, there's just been an indication of when they might or might not be fixed. The EEA have told me directly before Christmas, which I don't find wholly acceptable. Okay, we're in a period of murder, and that's the reason for having things cited to us. So perhaps on July the 5th, we'd like to, as a committee, probably receive an email from the Environment Agency, telling us exactly what they are intending to do, and not have to wait for the next meeting. Thank you. Could we ask that the Environment Agency send us the report that they normally would do at this meeting? They can send it to us after the 5th of July, and picking up on those particular points in respect to the river with them and the breaches. If they could update committee on that, that would be really helpful. For the record, this is recorded. Thank you. Councillor Baxter, please. Thank you, Chair. Good morning. On page eight, I think the 5th bullet point down talks about Talington and the flood partnerships manager agreeing to pass the matter onto the relevant network manager at Anglin Water. Can I ask what action has been taken as a result and what result has been? So I'll cover Talington in my update. Do you want me to go on that now? Councillor Rushing or wait for later? No, let's just do the minutes for accurately, and we can pick those up later. So with the amendment of come to many, bullet point three, item four, page eight, are we content with those minutes? Councillor Beel? Thank you. Just can I add in the River Welland sort of an update from the Environment Agency? We know that initially there was asbestos found, then a panic because of nesting birds, et cetera. One is somewhat concerned that there will be something else that would delay that. Obviously they've had to lower the water level, which has affected the sporting boat, taxi boat. It just seems been never ending. I look forward to the update on July 5th. Thank you. And while you're speeding, Councillor Beel, are you moving the minutes, please? I'm happy to move the minutes. Thank you. Thank you. Seconded, Councillor Skinner, agreed. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. So today's agenda, we have representatives from the Environment Agency, who are represented from the Environment Agency, as I've already said, are precluded from attending meetings. However, we do have an update from on behalf of Lincolnshire's internal drainage boards, which as I've said to you previously, I intend will be a regular item on our agenda, appreciating that not all boards would need or want to come to every meeting, but it would be nice to have an update on from drainage boards and also allow them the opportunity to flag issues with those in the League of Local Flood Authority that they feel are relevant. So I'd also like to thank all of the committee members who have been attending the meetings and field trips to the Stong Impact Working Group. We have had five meetings to date and two sets of site visits. I would like also to record my thank to all of those who have taken the time to meet us, particularly the people in those communities that have spoken to us and local County Councillors, particularly Councillor Gray, who facilitated with Horn Castle, and I know others have done likewise elsewhere. So we have issues emerging from our inquiry so far that communication between flood risk authorities and the public, as well as with local organisations such as parish councils, both before and during and after storm events, and the maintenance and capacitors of water courses, the importance of IDBs as part of the overall flood risk management structure, and passing more environment agency funding to IDBs to do more maintenance and other work on behalf of the agency and the capacity of foul water sealers. So that's just a run-through of some of the things that we have been talking about so far. We, further to that, from Greatford Parish Council, those of us that visited on the 8th of May, will recall that the parish council was seeking a further meeting with the environment agency and that members of this committee would be welcome to attend and observe, should we wish to do so. I can confirm that I'm advised, sorry, that a tentative date is 2pm on Monday the 8th of July at Greatford Parish Hall. That's only a tentative date and we will confirm as soon as possible, but if you like to ventilate in your diaries, it will be really interesting to hear from the environment agency in that debate. If you remember, there were questions around control structures on the River Welland through Greatford and a channel called the Greatford Cut, which connected that part of the Glen, to say the well and into the Glen through Greatford, and that collected that part of the River Glen through to the River Welland. So interesting points there. Further, our meeting today is being observed online today. I understand by Will Barber, a senior engineer for the flood risk management at Leicestershire County Council. Will is writing a dissertation for his master's degree on local overview and scrutiny of flood risk management in the Midlands and he may be contacting members of the committee after the meeting to discuss her. Screw the work. And finally, we are joined today by Council William Gray, representing Horn Castle, who is in attendance for the discussion of item secrets, which is a section 19 investigation. So welcome and thank you for joining us at short notice, Councilor Gray. That concludes my announcements of them to move on to Executive Council announcements. Councilor David, please, I understand, is joining online. Thank you very much, Chairman. I are indeed online. Since we don't have any EA people in attendance today, I thought I would just start by giving the members of the committee an update on the EA water situation report from the Lincolnshire and Northamptonshire area for May 24. So the most recent water report for this month highlights that Lincolnshire and Northamptonshire area received above average rainfall of 63 millimetres in May, which was 124% of the long-term average of which 56 millimetres fell in the last two weeks of the month. This is now the ninth month in succession with above average rainfall. It has been the wettest September to May period across Lincolnshire and Northamptonshire since records began in 1871. Mean monthly flows across catchments range from 127% to 314% of the long-term average, which were classified for above normal to exceptionally high for the time of year. In response to above normal levels of rainfall across the area, groundwater levels remain high. At all sites with data groundwater levels were classified as normal, but notably high for the time of year. I will now chair and move on to some comments from myself in relation to our longest lead local flood authority and our longest the county council in these matters. Firstly, I think it should be noted that our investment by the executive of the county council within additional funding made available for this area. We've successfully recruited four new members of staff into the floods and water team and this is going to aid in making the team and the authority more resilient to dealing with future challenges that flooding is likely to bring and this has obviously taken place since the committee last met in February. Moving on to section 19. The three consultants that have been commissioned to carry out the section 19 investigations and produce the reports following storms with a better hank, continue to carry out site visits and evidence gathering with the first of the completed reports having been submitted to the floods and water team by our own internal quality assurance. As previously reported to this committee, the number of investigations and affected properties is on a scale which we have never previously experienced from storm events and this has had a devastating impact across the whole of Lincolnshire to individuals, communities and businesses. However, we are still on track to have all section 19 investigations from the original commission piece of work completed by August, perhaps with the exception of some particularly complex investigations for which these will be closely monitored. A further piece of commission work to capture those flooding instances that the authority have been made aware of since February from the originally commissioned this work has also now been incorporated into the work we carried out by the consultants with a target date for these further investigations to be completed by the end of September. Following the concerns raised by the publication of the reports by the environment agency into the operation of the flood relief reservoir hall castle, Lincolnshire County Council agreed to carry out an independent peer review of the approach taken by the agency to assess the validity of the findings. This piece of work has been undertaken by geosmart consultants who are also conducting the wider hall castle section 19 investigation and the outcome of this review is expected imminently. Obviously to the report this will then be reviewed internally by officers who understand the findings and recommendations made prior to being made available more widely. The outcomes of this report will also be incorporated into the finding from the wider section 19 investigation for for horn castle. Delivery of flood and drainage works program is what I'll deal with next. During the current financial year up to March 2025 we'll be delivering over one and a half million pounds worth of flood and drainage improvement works across six locations in the county. These namely are at Brant Vorton, off on the hill Kirkby on Bain, Long Bennington, Woddingham and Cherry Wollingham and this will collectively better protect over 80 properties from future surface water flood risk. This is in addition to smaller maintenance and improvement works being carried out across multiple locations while the council floods and water and highways teams. Further works in a pipeline and projects will be developed following the recommendations from the active section 19 investigations although discussions are already well underway in many of the locations effective to identify solutions both by LCC officers and our partner risk management or solitude. And finally Chairman I just want to touch on some landscape scale initiatives. The county council has always recognized the major importance of the environmental economic status in Lincolnshire, linked to the water resources and flood risk agenda and as such we continue to engage with our partners. Be sure that the appropriate strategies are developed to manage the risks of flooding both in the present day and into the future to secure resilience for communities and for our core sectors such as agriculture, food production, manufacturing and tourism protect against the impacts of climate change and sea level rise. For active engagement it's taken place with regards to the Humber, the Lincolnshire coast and the fens as part of these landscape scale initiative. Evidence gathering of the risks to formulate baseline data continues across all of these areas by developing a range of strategic options through a robust investment strategy. So that's a scale of county we can be best prepared as possible so the future challenges of changing climate will bring. And I just finally like to close Chairman as we're in an election period and we'll have a new government after the 4th of July. Any new government is going to have to prioritize in a much greater way strategic investment into infrastructure related to water and flood management. It is no longer acceptable that we can spend tens of billions of pounds on investing in green technologies if we don't address the outcomes of weather impacts and climate change that are happening today. So we need an investment and a greater investment into this area than any government has previously made and at the moment I can't see where the commitment to that investment is coming from across the political spectrum. So I'll leave that there as a thought and I'm happy to take any questions or comments from members. Thank you very much Councillor DAVY. I'll take questions. Councillor CLARK, did I see you with Councillor BACCA and then yes Councillor CLARK please. Thank you Chair. Councillor DAVY, your presentation was more improvement and management. During the floods residents will left on their own unsure who to contact and what to expect from either the authority or any of the partners. How is the authority going to improve this situation for the residents in future? Thanks, Councillor CLARK for the question. I'm not going to disagree with you. I think issues of communication in relation to information have been raised already during the Section 19 investigation work. That is going to be a message for all of us in local government. It's not just us but how the environment agency, the drainage boards ourselves, our long led local flood authority and who actually is responsible for releasing information and advising the public during the emergency. So this has been an issue raised. You've raised it again and thank you for that. And rest assured that it is one of my main considerations about how communications are managed in the event of an emergency. So we'll have some answers and I'm sure we'll debate those answers at this committee. Thank you, Councillor BACCA, please. Thank you. First of all, thank you, Councillor DAVEY, for acknowledging the lack across the political spectrum of inadequate response to the impending catastrophe of climate change. It's good to hear the portfolio holder acknowledging that. Secondly, is there any update on the reservoir potential reservoir project just north of on the border of South Kay and North Kay and I had a third but I can't remember what it was. Let's go with those two. We've all come back to you. You're muted, Councillor DAVEY. Thank you very much, Chair, and that's the first time this week. Firstly, I think, Councillor BACCA, for his comments, you know, we have a challenging period ahead. I think we all recognise that the events of a better than Hank, of course, enormous damage with enormous costs of repair and that money probably isn't there at the moment. So there needs to be a real discussion about the importance of Lincolnshire's land and food production and how we protect our communities with government and whoever's in charge on the fifth of July needs to make it an urgent priority. In relation to the reservoir, the project is progressing as far as I'm concerned at the pace it was intended to. I think our team in the Chamber will be able to give you further updates. But as I said earlier, this country has failed to invest in the infrastructure we need. New reservoirs are an important part of providing the infrastructure for the future. This one is coming to Lincolnshire. We need to make sure we get the wider benefits of it. Rather, it's just being a reservoir. We need to make sure it provides tourism and leisure opportunities for the wider area and that means working closely with the proposals of the scheme and making sure that they do the right thing in terms of its delivery. So I support the reservoir concept and it's needed nationally, but we need to make sure that Lincolnshire gets the benefit from this scheme taking place in this local region. Councillor BANKE. Thank you. Thank you for the answers. The other question was about the blue pipes that are laid across the county and what's happening with them. I'm not sure if that's a question for the portfolio holder or for Anglion Water. It's probably for Anglion Water Councillor Baxter, but I know a meeting is being arranged between members and Anglion Water to look at this issue. I think that's taking place in the next week or so. So we'll have more there, but I'm sure if Anglion Water in the chamber, they can pick up on that. Matt, do you want to pick that up in your Anglion Water updates? Go on, go on. So the blue pipes are in relation to our strategic pipeline alliance project, one of the largest infrastructure projects in Europe at the moment, connecting groundwater, which is plentiful in Lincolnshire to Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex, where we have a deficiency. So whilst they are there now, we appreciate that a bit of an eyesore. We'll do what we can internally to move at haste to finish the project. Thank you. Councillor BACHTON. Thank you. Thank you for the response, but nothing seems to be happening. Nothing's moving at all. So when will the haste start? I think from what Councillor DAVIS saying, there is a meeting that's organised in the next week or so between the relevant parties to try and progress that, appreciating that whilst they are angling water infrastructure, it's not quite the remit of this committee. But I would say I'm sure that meeting will take place fairly quickly. Councillor BACHTON. Sorry Chair, I thought I was at the—first of all, is it a public meeting? This is a public meeting. Yes, but the meeting that's taking place over the next week is that a public meeting. And secondly, I thought I was at the Flood and Water Management Committee. If we're not talking about water management issues here, where do we have to go? I think we're talking about a pipeline infrastructure and an issue which is relevant to Councillors that are concerned about the delays that that's taking. There is a meeting that I understand is organised. You'll have to take that up with Councillor DAVIS and with offices separately to this meeting. So I'd like to say the deal with this now. This meeting is a meeting between members and I understand that Councillor DILKS and Councillor BACHTON have been invited. I'm not sure whether their diaries were the line, but I know Councillor HILL, the Leader of the Council would be attending that meeting to voices concerns which members have already heard him voice in the full Council Chamber about what's happening in relation to this project. So that meeting is a meeting between members and Anglian Water Chairman. Thank you, Councillor DAVIS. Does anyone else have any questions? I thought I saw Waving Hand. No. Thank you very much, Councillor DAVIS. Do we have any updates from offices, please? Chris. It's just on the last point, Chairman. That meeting is due to be held on Friday. Thank you very much. Which takes us on to item five, which is pages 15 to 19 of the PAC, and that's the famous 2100 plus adaptation strategy. And I understand, Chris, you're going to take us through this, please. Thank you, Chairman. Yes, and very briefly, because I will be taking the report as read. As Councillor DAVIS already alluded to, there are a number of strategies and programs in play looking at adaptation, trying to look at the risk across the region to the dangers of climate change and the effects that we'll have on our landscape at the landscape scale. Fence 2100 plus is one of the three major EA-directed generally programs alongside the 100-2100 plus end, the linkage to 2100 plus, which covers the open coast from Techni down to Gibraltar Point. And then looking at the coastlines and the catchments and the areas affected by water particularly, and how we're going to have to accommodate change, and how our investment looks to combat that climate change. Fence 2100 itself was launched last year, 2023, and is based over an area which you'll see on page 16. So it doesn't include the Finland areas west of the coastline or all the areas around the anchor and they're picked up separately in the other two schemes. And obviously looking at the long-term value for money investments, they're going to require to protect both communities and the economies in the area. For the Finland area, obviously one of the major elements of that is going to be around food production and the agricultural sector, but wider business concerns as well. And looking at how that investment will look in terms of trying to combat climate change, an area of land which is, as stated in the report, generally below six metres AOD. And the risks are significant from the major river networks in that area, particularly for the agricultural sector but also for communities generally. As again stated in the report, this is a really important area for agriculture, particularly given the significant amounts of grade one agricultural land and the amount of produce that that area covers. This is a landscape-scale project, so it will be looking wide, it won't be just specifically looking at those individual catchments, if we're looking across those and how they all interconnect. And the investment plans that will sit behind it, if you look on page 17, there are the major key deliverables for key deliverables. So adaptation investment decision-making framework at a landscape scale, so as I say looking at that landscape area and how that adaptation investment is going to look, looking at the cost and how that will develop, how that will move through through the investment adaptation pathways, looking at where it needs to be prioritised and providing some guidance as to how that will shape. Before that all that can take place, we do have to obviously set down the baselines of where we currently stand to make sure that we are looking at this in a proper and sensible way. And then over the next few years, 27 to 33, looking at that catchment level investment plan, looking at the scale of that and how that's going to get what the costs are going to be and how we can deliver it. The progress thus far is being really been in the setup phase as I say, this is really only an overview report. And as we move through the process between the various risk management partners, the reports we brought back on the individual elements of it, such as the demonstrates projects at the lower level with them, the steeping and on green credit, but also looking at those assets and network studies, the investment studies, studies into the title limits and the Denver assets system scoping study, I'm afraid I don't know exactly what that covers and our colleagues from the EA aren't here, and perhaps guidance on that one. Ultimately this will develop a partnership investment plan and that will again, looking at those current future landscape scale, flood assessments, current future asset vulnerability to climate hazards and the adaptation works that are going to be needed to cover it. One of the major areas that the County Council has already been developing is the groundwater project, looking at identifying the types of salination in the area and how that's going to affect crop productivity and yields and values, and looking at the decisions that will have to be made at a local scale to adapt to that ongoing challenge and also looking at how that affects the communities generally in the sector, not just directly to the farms but how that settles across the chain, the delivery chain. As I say, a lot of this is work in progress and we will be picking these up as individual reports as we go forward, but as a note of you, that was the report. Thank you very much, Chairman. Thank you. Colleagues, Councilor Baxter. Thank you. We're talking about an investment plan, but I can't see any numbers or pound signs. Are we likely to buy 2025? That's the process. It's underway, Councilor Baxter. This is a report just to set out that's what the word that's ongoing at the present, so no direct figures as yet. Do we have any idea of the scale of figure that we might expect for the whole project and also for the Canada Council? Is it something that we need to take into account in the budget setting process for next year? I don't have those figures today. My fingertips, but I can always get back to you on that one. I think if anyone who's taken the time to read some of the FEN 2100 documentation, the thing that really, really does focus mines is in the initial assessment of what doing nothing looks like. Effectively, if the pumps and drainage in the FEN stopped, then within either somewhere around seven to 12 years, the entire basin between Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire fills up with water. I think that really does begin to concentrate mines on the scale of the challenge and the absolute necessity, economic necessity, of making sure that we have that resilience. Just picking up, does anyone else have any further questions for Chris on FEN? Councilor Skinner and then Councillor Klar. Thank you very much, Chairman. I just wondered if the mooted barrier project across the wash, whether that has been considered, although it's not very popular with natural England, et cetera, it would provide a very good way of controlling water. I know there was somebody that was very keen on doing it, but it's all gone quiet this last year. Thank you. I'm not sure if Matthew would be able to add any extra on that on this, but as far as the County Council is concerned, we're in a position of neutrality still, because as far as we're the project hasn't provided any of the facts and figures we requested nearly two years ago, so as such, we don't make comments on it. In terms of the FEN's 2100+, I don't believe it's been discussed yet, Matt, as part of that project, so that's something we can take back into it. It may provide a degree of reassurance that the FEN's 2100 work does seem to be incredibly focused. I've experienced the Humber 2100 and its previous iterations, and at one point, part of their look at possible schemes and, I mean, doing the whole range of options, they were keeping on the table far beyond what was ever really sensible, an outer Humber barrier, which if you cast your thoughts across that, that would be a structure of a size and scale yet known to mankind. I'm very pleased that actually FEN 2100 seemed to be a lot more focused in the outset over what practical stuff can be done and can be trialled and undertaken in the FEN rather than waiting too much time on the Vancouver and the Pine Sky. Councillor Clark, please. Thank you, Chair. Just for clarification, on page 16 at the bottom, it says, By 2025, the Environment Agency will farm as land managers, water companies, etc, etc, to develop a long-term plan. If I pick this up and I was a resident of the area, I'd think, well, we've got a plan at the moment, or we're just going from one bit of flooding to the other. Councillor Clark, thank you. As a statement is, it's looking at 2025 to develop that plan, so that's the bit that we're in the process of at the moment. I do know that various work streams ongoing, the Witherm catchment area, working on how that looks around the Barlings-O and so on, working with those land owners to see if there's things that can be done differently, so it's starting to develop those, bringing those together to have a more cohesive plan for the FENland region. Thank you. Any further questions and comments on FEN, I would just something that, just to draw a member's attention to, is I'm understanding the section on the map on page 16 there, the steeping catchment. This, I think, has been taken out of FEN's 2100 and will hopefully be put with the Lincolnshire coast equivalent of this, appreciating that it's not quite the same as the rest of the Lincolnshire and the Cambridgeshire FENlands in terms of character and nature. It's effectively low-lying coastal area, rather than the inland FENs, to which we're more used to. Seeing no one else, thank you very much for that update. Chris, this is clearly going to be one of those projects that comes to us with a degree of frequency, given the length of time that it's going to take. To progress through and hopefully, for us in Lincolnshire, the works that are looked at around the lower width and strategy will be a particular interest and benefit to us all. That takes us on to item six, which is the flood and water team update, the section 19 investigations. Matthew, please. Thank you, Chairman, and good morning, everybody. If I may, I will take the papers red, but I will just pick up on a few pertinent points throughout the report just to bring to your attention. I will start with the section 19 investigations, and I will deal with those first that are pre-storm ba bets. These were the investigations that still sat with us in the team prior to the 20th of October of 2023. There were a small number of reports that were still active, both from 2022 and 2023. The team have been working really hard on those to get those wrapped up, finalised, all the detail together, so that those reports can be signed off. I'm pleased to report that hopefully in the next week or so, all of those 2022 reports will be signed off and completed. We are on target to do that, and those outstanding from 2023 prior to storm the bet, equally we are hoping to have those all done and signed off by the end of July. On that basis, there will be no outstanding section 19 reports that we have on file or are aware of prior to storm the bet, so everything will be up to date, which is pleasing to report and something that we have been working really hard to achieve. Just moving on to the section 19 investigations linked to both storm the bet and storm hang. Obviously, as you were aware, the storm events were pretty close together, so the investigations have been carried out as a package across three organisations as reported by Councillor DAVIS, so we have SLR, FPS and GeoSmart that are carrying out those investigations on our behalf. All site visits have been completed by SLR, and they are one with writing the reports. FPS, there were 34 properties that have been visited so far. They have further site visits to carry out between the week events in the 17th of June. Obviously, that's now passed since the report was written through to week events in the 5th of August. That has been deliberate so that we can stagger the work and make the reviews and quality assurance of that, so we're not inundated in one go, so that's so we can do this as a phase to piece of work. And then GeoSmart, all site visits have been completed for the initial batch of work that they were issued, which was 34 investigations covering 235 properties. The additional piece of work that GeoSmart have been commissioned to undertake are the 37 investigations covering 48 properties, which are those that we have been made aware of since the original piece of work was commissioned in February, so that captures those additional affected areas and properties since that piece of work was commissioned. That is scheduled to be completed by the end of September, so one month after the main batch of section 19 investigations. Just to carry out and as highlighted by Councillor DAVY, obviously the complexity of the investigations can vary, so there may be one or two that are slightly more complex that could go beyond those dates, but it's hoped that that we are very small number indeed and most will be completed by the target date that has been set. We are receiving investigations back now from the consultants. The large proportion of the work that they have been undertaken is obviously the evidence gathering the site visits. There's been a huge amount of evidence that has been passed to ourselves in the floods and water team, which the consultants have been aware of, and that's both from members, from members of the public, from part of organisations, and so on and so forth, so the consultants have had all that information together, and they are now on with the report writing. We've had 26 completed reports back to us so far, and then the pace of those will now increase as we work towards the end of August. And then going through our own just internal quality assurance within the team, just so we can sense check those and just go through them prior to them being issued out more widely. One of the other pieces of work that Councillor DAVY touched on, which I will just reiterate is there was a lot of interest in Horne Castle following the publication of the Environment Agency report into the operation of the flood relief reservoir, and it was agreed that linkage account accounts were arranged for an independent peer review of that data from those reports to be undertaken, and as Councillor DAVY said, we are expecting that report back abundantly. So once that is received into the team, we will just obviously have a read through, just get a feel for what that report is suggesting in the sense of recommendations or anything different, and then that will form part of the wider Horne Castle section 19 investigation. So overall, the investigations are progressing still on time as we stand, but obviously that is being closely monitored within the team and will be kept under constant review. Just to quickly move on to the property flood resilience grants, so this was something else that came out of storm verbat and storm hank, where as part of a series of grants that were announced by government, and they also announced £5,000 funding to be available for property flood resilience to people who had been affected by those particular storms. That grant money was to be administered by lead local flood authorities, and that is what we are doing in Lincolnshire County Council, and we are working closely with two property flood resilience contractors, RAB RAB, who are doing the survey part of the work, and White House construction, who we have commissioned to carry out the installation measures. So the number of properties that we are dealing with in the county is a huge challenge for the PFR industry as a whole to deliver within the timeframe that has been set out within the Defra Government guidance, which is to have it completed by May 2025. We have been having discussions direct with Defra to express concerns in the sense of the time scale that is available to us to try and achieve some meaningful actions, and certainly the installation measures for those people who have approached us to try and take up the grant. Defra have taken that away. It is fair to say that in Lincolnshire, Defra have made it clear that we are ahead of the curve compared to many lead local flood authorities, and they are using ourselves as an example of how this process is working. So we are continuing those very close discussions with Defra to monitor how this is going. Clearly we want to deliver as much as we possibly come for those who have been affected, and that is why we are having those discussions. I am also pleased to say that White House construction now are gearing up to deliver the first batch of installations to those properties that have expressed an interest in their surveys completed, so that is a positive step. And then finally just to make you aware of an update on our capital flood risk programme, again, apologies, but I will repeat, just from what Councillor DAVIS said, we have some schemes in the pipeline here that will better protect 80 properties over this coming financial year, over £1.5 billion of the work, and myself and the team are working hard to develop a pipeline of projects to be led through Lincolnshire County Council or in collaboration with our flood risk partners over the coming years, and of course that will be kept under review as the recommendations come forward from the section 19 investigations following Stormbebet and Hank, where we will react to those recommendations and obviously consider works as appropriate following those. And at that point I will leave it there, Chairman, thank you and take any questions. Thank you very much. I have got a council fleet with indicating, but I am going to invite Councillor Grey to come in at this point, just appreciating your issues in Horncastle please. Mr Chairman, thank you very much for that, and thank you for allowing me to speak. Yes, we have been hearing about Geosmart and Geosmart are the organisations that are carrying out the section 19 investigations in Horncastle. Of the 235 properties that they will be looking at, 159 of those are in Horncastle and the Keelsville were actually in my ward, so that's a huge figure. There's 147 dwellings there and 12 businesses. I have been concerned actually that some of the business premises which are still closed, because they were so badly affected by flooding in the town centre, don't appear to have been included in the section 19 investigations, but from what I've just heard from Matthew, this is obviously going to be some additional ones, so hopefully in those additional ones those businesses will be included, because I can just think of one immediately Shakespeare's restaurant on West Street was completely flooded. I went in the property, it went to my knees, so I was up to my knees in flood water, that property I understand is not opening against, that business has gone, they employed quite a number of people, younger people in the town too, who were waiting in their bar and their restaurant and working in their bar, so that's not opening. Some of the homes of course were very very so fairly affected, we've still, at least Lindsay, we've still got people in temporary accommodations, you'll probably know, Mr Chairman, so you know that's not good. These people's lives have been affected so considerably for nearly 12 months and so, and the fact that, you know, there doesn't seem to be dates when some of those people will leave temporary accommodation is very very concerning. It's good that Councillor DAVY gave us an update with regard to the peer review, and I'm particularly interested in this peer review as you would imagine, because I've stood there at that flood alleviation scheme where I've been told categorically, your residents are safe, Councillor Grey, there will be no issues, and I know other people have heard that too, but my residents weren't safe, because as I've just said, 147 dwellings and 12 businesses were considerably affected, so the fact that the Council has really taken on board and realised the significance of this impact on people's lives is really really good, but I'm just concerned and interested to see the depth of that review, you know, is it a technical review, what will it include, how rigorous will it be, etc, etc, because people are still very upset, very angry and do need answers, so to see that review coming in will be really useful. And the impact of the flooding due to that scheme not operating, I could just can't say how considerable it is, I have regular market store surgeries in the marketplace with the town council, and every time we have a market store surgery, we have comments as you would imagine from residents about what happened, and of course they're directed to me as the County Council for Horn Castle, and so there really really is a genuine concern still with residents in Horn Castle, is this going to happen again, so you know that can't be underestimated. And then lastly Mr Chairman, if I can just highlight something to members you may be aware, I'm a member with a third drainage and I see some of my fellow colleagues here today, and indeed James Froggett is with us in the chamber today, and it really is quite unbelievable that we've been told that the EA have reclassified the river wearing running through the centre of Horn Castle as low consequence, so that means that no longer will the EA be funding with and third to do some really quite important work on keeping that channel through the centre of the town clear, because they classified it as low consequence that won't be happening Mr Chairman, so I think and I don't know if the wide public really realized that that is not going to happen, now with them third have objected this to this reclassifications that's great, and I know local members have two, Councillor Fiona Martin, you'll all know her I'm sure she is a district councillor in Horn Castle and she's really championing this, but in view of recent funding events in Horn Castle, this reclassification by the EA seems quite unbelievable to me, so I just wanted members of the committee and thank you for allowing me, as I say to speak, to just be aware that how badly affected residents were, I mean 159 properties that are subject to section 19 investigations from people still not in their homes, business are not going to reopen again, you know, and when we were assured that this couldn't happen to Horn Castle, it wouldn't flood again, but it did, so thank you very Mr Chairman for indulging me and giving me the time. Thank you, Councillor Gray, your comments of earned input are greatly appreciated and I'm sure members around Chamber will have similar experiences in their own divisions, certainly from my own perspective representing Councillor CUNNINGSby, the breach in the River Bay and at Thomas Swan, there is currently not a single penny piece of funding to the Environment Agency, available to the Environment Agency to begin to affect repairs and no plans exist at present to affect those repairs and members that were on the site visits earlier in the year will remember seeing that gaping hole, there is not a single plan or a single penny piece towards fixing that and I'm conscious, I appreciate the Environment Agency aren't here and there will be plenty of questions for them next time that they are, but it is really, really frightening to understand that they have had absolutely no additional funding as an organisation to make good something to affect repairs in many of these circumstances and effectively they are having to raid existing budgets in order to make good some of the repairs that they have done and give them the scale of the challenge that we have faced as a county, indeed the scale of the challenge that we face as a country, not only have we had unprecedented rainfall but it feels to me to be unprecedented that there has been so little national level help for the agency and other organisations have benefited but I know that the agency has not. Matthew, is there anything you would like to pick up from what Councilor Gray would ask you please? Yes, thank you Chairman and thank you for that Councilor Gray, so regarding the people that have been affected, obviously it has been absolutely devastating in the Horned Castle as we know but equally from what we've seen through my team, it's been devastating across the county as we're all aware and I personally have attended a number of published meetings met with individuals as you were aware Councilor Gray, obviously attended Horned Castle Town Council meetings and so on and so forth, so it has been absolutely devastating the scale of what we're dealing with and that certainly isn't lost on members of us as a team. Regarding those people who may have been affected that aren't on a list, I suppose my obvious statement is we can only go on the information that we have, if that hasn't been made aware to us obviously I can pick up with you outside of this meeting, we will make sure that we have everybody on our list, I would rather know about somebody two or three times than not at all so we'll make sure we've got that information from you and just on a general point on that I would say it isn't too late for anybody to make us aware of anybody that has been affected because whilst the Section 19 investigations are ongoing we can make sure data is continually fed in at any point and taken into account with what we might look at doing in a sense of recommendations. Just a very quick update on a specific part of Horned Castle, whilst the investigation is still going on we are aware that the impacts of both the river wearing and the Thunka drain are likely to have had impacts on particular elements of Horned Castle. In parallel to the investigation through my team we have already commenced discussions with Environment Agency colleagues with East Mercier Rivers Trust and others have got links into local landowners about what measures we might be able to look at in that particular part of the town to try and alleviate future flooding so as I've said before we're not having to wait for the outcome of an investigation where we know there are potential issues or mitigation measures that we could take forward productively which is what we're doing at that location. Thank you. Councilor Fleetwood please. Thank you Chairman. Well I suppose I'm the third within third drainage board member to speak in a row and I fully support the comments made by Councillor Gray with regard to Horned Castle and your previous comments with regard to issues alongside. I'd like to thank Matthew for attending a meeting at Langworth because I was going to add Langworth on to the list but now Matthew has made his comments about Horned Castle. I'm sure it will take into account Langworth as well where many borne glows were flooded to the depth of windowsill depth which is crazy. Just picking up though on the property flood resilience grant, County Council, £5,000 which sounds like it's wonderful. It is. It's useful but unfortunately we have consultants involved and it was brought to me by one or two people that I spoke to at Lincolnshire show that the cost of the consultants was being covered by the report and covered by the fund but alas the costs are going into the thousands of pounds that the consultants are charging and then the work that's required afterwards also amounts to many thousands of pounds. So one individual said that his report was £3,000 but they then needed to spend another, I think it was £17,000 on the back of that to address the issues required. So £5,000 sounds lovely but unfortunately it doesn't cover the other £15,000. So the question mark really is, is there any way that somehow the consultant's fees can be, I don't know, capped to stop them going above a certain level? £5,000 sounds wonderful to an average household but alas if the bulk of that just goes in the consultant's fee and he then walks away and says well yeah gee you've got a problem but it's an expensive problem, how does that leave Mr Residant? Yes so thank you for that Councillor Fleetwood. So in the defra guidance that we have got to work to as part of the property flood resilience grant it's split in two ways. So the overall grant is £5,000. Part of that is for survey fees and that is capped at around about £800. The remainder is what is left is then for physical measures to be installed on that property. So that is what the money is spent on, it's all capped, all of that £5,000 is going to the survey fees which have to be undertaken as per the defra guidance and whatever then can be installed with the remaining money. Now we absolutely recognise that does not leave a lot of money for those people that have been affected in a particularly bad way that will not fully protect their properties with property flood resilience measures and in fact that is actually acknowledged by Defra in the guidance as well. It is to show a commitment to better protect that property not necessarily fully protect that property. I talked earlier that we've been in discussions directly with Defra about the administering of the property flood resilience grant and one of the points that we have made and I know colleagues at neighbouring and other lead local flood authorities have mentioned is that £5,000 doesn't really go anywhere near enough for the sort of money that is needed to fully protect somebody's property and actually that needs to be potentially reconsidered. It probably won't be considered for this round of the grant but certainly in the future that is not sufficient to fully protect people's property and that is part of the ongoing active discussions we've been having with Defra. Of course people could still go to a property flood resilience contractor and have worked on themselves independently. They don't have to come through this grants process and of course that might be where some of the higher figures come from because that won't be capped. However what we've been hearing from some of the property flood resilience contractors that we've been working with is that from their point of view they prefer to work directly with lead local flood authorities so that they can get a programme of work coming through rather than ad hoc individual people coming to them because it makes more sense from their business case. So we absolutely recognise the challenges and we keep pushing Defra without because it is arguably inadequate for the challenges that people are facing and have us helpful. Thank you Councillor Baxter then Clark then Bonnie please. Thank you Chair. Firstly about the companies we've got the acronyms for the companies. On first reading the report it's not clear that what SLR and FPS are. I understand it's FPS is flood protection systems limited or something similar and SLR is something else they say making sustainability happen but I'm not entirely sure how it fits. I don't understand how these organisations were procured are they just snatched from a framework or are they the people that that answered the phone or how I mean we're clearly spending an awful lot of money with these people so what is the recruitment process. I recognise that we did need to do it in a hurry and I recognise that we haven't had to do it at this scale very much before but if we're going into the thousands for individual investigations what is the running total so far. How much have we spent on consultants so far who does for quality assurance on the site visits completed and the investigations completed how will we know that we've got value for money on the on the feedback for consultation the investigations. Are the companies split by region or are they kind of dished out across the county. Could you tell me that home castle was all done for example by SLR and the south of the county by FPS or was there a different way of arranging the the work. I can't see angling water mentioned in this report at all. I haven't done a search search of a document but given that the limited evidence we've got about it so far talks about excellence of drainage system capacities for surface water drainage and water courses and also the surcharging foul sewers I would have thought that angling water were tangled up in here somewhere. What involvement do angling water have in the section 19 process. Near the bottom of page 26 we are told it is too early to draw meaningful conclusions from the impacts experienced across the county and the information will be continued to be collated. So we're now towards the end of June and by the end of August we should be publishing something saying this is what happened and this is this is the reasons why and this is how either we will fix it or we can't fix it. So when will that what am I supposed to say to the residents in in Gretford and Tarlington and elsewhere about what the county has done in terms of meaningful conclusions and when the details are published where will these investigations be found where will the detail of for example Gretford where will the detail of what happening Gretford be found and where will the summary across the county be presented and when. Regarding the procurement we as the team work closely with our procurement team within Lincoln shire County Council to go out via a framework of contractors that could deliver this work for us contractors that had previously delivered section 19 investigations for all the lead local Florida authorities around the country. You're quite right that on this occasion we were kind of forced into this situation to be able to come out with the recommendations which is largely what people want to see in a timely manner the sheer scale of numbers that we've got dealing with those in the small team that we are would have taken a huge amount of time. So this was about getting some answers in an efficient and timely manner. So we work very closely with our procurement team here at Lincolnshire County Council very mindful that obviously we wanted value for money as well and there was a range of consultants and contractors that we could choose from and we went through due process with our procurement team to award the contracts to these and also based on some of their previous previous experience. The consultants have been dealing with areas and partly some catchment areas so they've not been working ad hoc different areas across the county so they have been broken down into areas to make it easier for them to come and look at particular areas in one go so they're not south of the county one day and north of the county the other day and we have broken that down to make it more more manageable for them. With regards angling water they won't have been made aware of the recommendations as yet but will be as part of our partnership discussions the section 19 investigation is ongoing. Not wishing to speak on behalf of angling water colleagues here in front of me but I'm sure they're very much aware as to where many of their issues are irrespective of the section 19 reports but when they do come out because there can be a multitude of factors of course that influence what happens not just one source so angling water will be part of those joined up discussions that we have to talk about what the recommendations are and what meaningful measures might be able to come out of that so yet yet to happen in any detail and that goes the same for all of our partners where we look at looking at what we can achieve or what they might need to take forward themselves. The meaningful conclusions that you refer to that was just to try and illustrate a snapshot of where we are now with some of the things that have come out of those first few completed section 19 investigations that we have bearing in mind at the moment we've received 26 and there's 230 odd plus that are ongoing not well underway and ongoing but still there's 230 odd in total. At the outcome of all of those we will then have really a picture as to what those recommendations are and also what some of the causes were. In truth I think we all probably know that the exceptional rainfall as Councillor DAVY highlighted in his executive update you know the wettest period you know October to May on record since 1871 that is fundamentally going to be a key challenge that led to a lot of these things. What we need to do with the recommendations is and identify if there were any specific issues that may have exacerbated that and that's where we're coming into the partnership discussions to look at those recommendations to take forward. You're quite right from as we sit here now on the 24th of June to have these completed by the end of August and end of September that looks tight. However most of the time is taken with the site visits, the data gathering, the evidence gathering making sense of that and they are now on with the report writing which is obviously what we all want to see. So at the moment we are closely monitoring that within the team and we are still on track to meet that deadline that we have set as ambitious as it is and we've always been clear from that from the start that it is an ambitious target but very clear that people want to understand what went on what the contributing factors and what other recommendations to come out of these reports. The reports themselves as always will be made available on the Lincolnshire County Council website where there will be a summary of the causation of the flooding and the recommendations that come out of it. As I say please be mindful that you know as I've said before for me the section 19 investigation is the start of the discussion that's the understanding it's what we then take forward from there as organisations to look at those recommendations and take something forward from there. We can of course if you've got any particular concerns councilor for any member please contact us in the floods and water team we're happy to discuss individual locations or cases where you may have concerns or residents so I'm more than happy to pick up those individual discussions that's not a problem please just do get in touch with us in the team but one of the requests that has come out from the executive is that all members have an opportunity to see the completed report prior to it going out any further and more widely and that is what we will be doing in the team so you will have the opportunities to see the full report. My only caution if I could add to that please is that whilst it will have been quality short in the team and that's where the experience lies in my team to check those reports we do need to comply with GDPR of course because there is likely to be some personal data in there so it's just make sure that doesn't get circulated more widely at that point that's not to say it won't do in due course but just at that point but we will make sure that all members have the opportunity to see the report and I hope that has covered most of your points councilor Baxter. Thank you very very well I've been taking them off as you went brilliant thank you the only one that's outstanding is do you have any idea of what the processes cost so far? Not at my fingertips but yes we do because it's all documented as part of our process working with the contractors so I can take that away and certainly let you know. Thousands of pounds, tens of thousands of pounds or hundreds of thousands of pounds. The overall procurement work for this was in the region around about 300,000 pounds for three contractors. Thank you. Councillor Clark then Councillor Bonnie please. Thank you Chairman. This merges into the next item as well but an S19 investigation basically is paperback. They don't go around and check any of the equipment etc it's all you know that paperwork is it from the partners as well? Yes when we have that data that's included if it comes out in the recommendations that there's further work required or further work for a particular partner then we will obviously make them aware of that and go through the report with them and make them aware of that that report but if the information is already there that information is fed into the section 19 investigation yes. Right I raised this issue because at a previous meeting with Matt Moore from the Angler Wall Board I brought up the non-returned vows. In fact I think I'll bring them up at a lot of the meetings. I got instructed by the Angler Wall Board that they would send me information about which are the vows in my division that they've got responsibility for. I haven't received no correspondence so either the Angler Wall Board haven't an idea which ones they've got responsible responsibility for or they're not interested but either way this doesn't help my residents and it seems to me that when I have contact with the Wall Board they seem very good at shifting the blame not giving me an answer so I just hope that in S19 investigation you actually do receive the correct answers thank you. Yes thanks Councillor CLARK and yeah absolutely these are all the sorts of things that come out in the recommendations of what we will make all of our partner organisations aware if there are recommendations that are pertinent to them and we will try and facilitate those discussions within the team for those any actions to be taken forward. I would just stress that ultimately and as as being picked up in the working group when I did a presentation on the section 19 investigations we haven't got powers to force organisations to do anything under the flood water management app we can only make the recommendations however in Lincolnshire as you know we do work closely with our partners to make sure that we have those joined up discussions so you know I can't give promises as I sit here now that every flat valve will be looked at because some of that will lie to colleagues in angling water but those discussions through the section 19 investigation will certainly be had if that has been highlighted as part of the recommendations. Thank you and Councillor BUNNY please. Thank you Chair. I want to go back to pre-storm Hank etc. Bavet to the floods in 222 in market raisin. I know that notice that you say the report is intimate when that comes will that be and I appreciate it will be online but will you be letting members know or local members know that it's there so that we can ensure that we pick it up in time? Yes certainly Councillor BUNNY that's not a problem at all. I mean this would go for any area but you know certainly very mindful of ongoing work that we're doing in market raisin with the modelling that you're aware of and the options appraisals and things like that so it all fits into that bigger picture so yep absolutely that's not a problem we will make you aware when it's available. Thank you for that and if we're carrying on on May the 26th I think it was Sunday we had two quite intense storms in market raisin and middle raisin area neither of which caused as much problems as we had at 22 or at storm Bavet but actually we're very near misses very similar and I'm just hoping that in time we can make sure that the section 19 reports which come from Prebavet for market raisin tie in with those post because it does seem to me that a lot of the problems are similar in that area and it's just where that rain falls which causes the issues and then I notice on page 28 with your ongoing capital programme you are obviously predicting for this year that we'll have some options and design work I suspect that's what it means in the third column and then proposed construction for following you am I taking it that that is proposed was where you would like to see it and that there is not necessarily money yet set aside for that work. In respect of market raisin in the funding though there is money set aside for market raisin we obviously haven't got any final figures yet because you're aware we're still doing the modelling work and options appraisals and things like that so that that will that will vary but no there is funding available to do works in market raisin and the ambition is to carry out works as set out in that programme because it is an area that we are looking very closely at what those final works will be obviously is yet to be determined but no the funding is there and available. If I may just pick up on you earlier point about previous reports obviously all reports are held on file and documented within the foots award team and on our databases and when investigations are carried out we do look back at any previous section 19 investigations from those locations to make sure that's taken into account with the current and ongoing investigations and that has been the case with both Stormabett and Hank that all of the consultants have been made aware of any previous instances of flooded locations they visited. Just one thing, sorry just one thing on that, is that time limited going back because I'm well aware that in particular part in market raisin in Deer Street which the people have been flooded I haven't noticed how many times in the last 20 or 20 years. There has mentioned of previous investigations going right back to just around the 2000s but no one seems to be able to locate reports, is that correct? That may be correct because we have only been conducting section 19 investigations as linkers to county council since 2012 which is when we became lead local flood authority and the Flood and Water Management Act came in and that's where our duties started from so our records only go back to 2012 when we became lead local flood authority. Now of course if somebody is aware of any previous reports data information or anything like that that might proceed that and know who may hold those whether it be a local authority or whatever, of course we will make inquiries to see if we can obtain that information and feed it in but as data that we hold as linkers to county council that already dates back to 2012 when we became lead local flood authority. Thank you for that colleagues any further questions on this item. Seeing none thank you so much for your presentation Matthew I think it's a genuine credit to you and your team and also to the contractors that's been undertaking some of this work that we are meeting that ambitious deadline that was set at the beginning of this whole process appreciating the sheer volume that the team is having to work through it's also reassuring the pre-babbit the pre-hank stuff is also caught up nice and tidally too. We are going to take a short break while we get the windows open in here appreciating that it's a bit hot and stuffy. I would say folks take your jackets off but most of you have. One item that I did omit on or one thing I did omit on item five is that we were asked or we should have been asked that the committee supports the FEN 2100 adaptation strategy and the progress of the work streams including the groundwater salination work as part of the flood and coastal resilience innovation program. Just a bit of housekeeping do we have the support of the committee on that item. Move, scan the skin, a second account, the hags in favour. Thank you. So we will just take a short break 25 past on that clock while we get the windows open. Thank you very much indeed. 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Kevin, which is the Angling Water Update, Matt, please. Thank you. So, I'll update where we are on the multi-agency group meetings that we commissioned following Stombert and Storm Henk, and then answer some of the questions that have been circulating around, if that's okay, Councillor Ashton. So, in regards to Tallyington, Scott Wickenhamton, that we're grouping together for the same root cause, which is predominantly groundwater. We have had two very constructive meetings. We have got local members involved in that sort of parish councils from Tallyington, Scott Wickenhamton. Our role represents Stombert's multi-agency groups. The invite, just as is for all leaks, Stigney and Stigford is there for Councillors present in Ms. Chamber to also participate in those who wish. And please come see me afterwards if you would like to be part of those meetings. Just to cover Tallyington, we do have a specific meeting on the 24th of July to talk about Tallyington. That's with all key partners. And I'll be honest, the purpose of that meeting is to decide whether or not we are likely to have the collective funds to resolve the problems in Tallyington. That's being very open, honest and candid, but ultimately, funding for flood risk is driven by risk of internal floodings. And in Tallyington, there haven't been as many to justify the amount of spend that's going to be needed. Now, I know that's a hard message to push and that's not going to be a popular message to push. But what we need to do is look at what funding Anglin Water can provide, what capital funding linkage County Council can provide as Richard Fenwick has already alluded with me already. And what funding we can get from public grant and aid and local levy, and I think those two public funding avenues will be crucial if we are able to achieve anything at Tallyington. The issue is a complex. The surface water system runs through Tallyington. Whilst it remains an Anglin Water asset doesn't serve any of our statutory duties, so therefore we have no obligation to maintain it. All it does is serves highway runoff. We are going to start conversations about whether or not that asset should be divested under the water industry act because it doesn't serve any domestic purposes. It really shouldn't have come over to Anglin Water post privatization. But that's conversations ongoing between ourselves and Richard Fenwick at Lincoln County Council. The other complication, of course, is that we suspect the surface water system at Tallyington is actually a cool bit of chalk stream. And that's why groundwater so easily incapacitates it because ground water will find its way into that cool that quite quite easily. And the other issues, of course, in Tallyington is that in the process of people defending their properties, they made the situation worse. And what I mean by that is people were lifting their foul water manholes to allow the ground water that was coming up in their driveways to drain into it, which then made the situation a lot worse and incapacitated for foul sewer system in Tallyington. So people have the rights to them in properties, we accept that and we understand that. But the issues in Tallyington are complex, they are not simple to resolve. And with the best will in the world, as I said to the parish councillor, if they were simple, we would have done already. So we have a meeting on the 24th of July to look at how we take this forward. And that will be with ourselves, Lincoln County Council, the Environment Agency, and the parish council and the council. If you'd like to attend, you're more than welcome to attend that and I'll extend me invite over to you. In regards to Scott, we can Hainton, the other areas involved in my multi-agency group. We are working very closely with Project Groundwater, that's already mentioned already in order to look at what solutions may exist. It's at aid with the groundwater situation at Scott, Lincoln, Hainton. We do understand the impact on the school and on the local community. But, you know, groundwater is a complex issue to resolve. But we are meeting, we're talking and that's one of the key steps in getting this resolved. The other multi-agency group, as I said last time, councillor Wendy Bokeh is the independent chair for that, which is fantastic being able to hold all the agencies to account on that multi-agency group. And that goes old, leaks, stick knee and stick fit. We are progressing with actions on that and I'm pleased to say that one of the key flooding hotspots in Stikford has already been resolved, thanks to close work to in England Mortar and the IDB. There's also been some more investment into the staff at England Mortar. And what I mean by that is each network, each water recycling network team. So our water recycling network team look after the underground infrastructure of the sewers. A network support manager has now been appointed into each of those teams. And the purpose of that is to allow the network manager for the area to focus better on the engagement with elected members and with members of the public and, you know, with a real focus drive some of these chronic issues. So that's, again, a really positive step. Councilor Clark, you mentioned non-return valves, indeed we did speak last time, we have gone out and checked and we only have two non-return valves. One, they're both from our surface water pump stations. The first one in all from terrorists and the second one in St. Catharines. So we will go out and we will spray paint those non-return valves blue. So, you know, which ones are England Mortar. Any other non-return valves in those areas will not be the responsibility of England Mortar and likely to be either highways or riparian. I'll keep it brief. I'll leave it there. There's lots of conversations ongoing, lots of discussions ongoing. As usual, you know, if you need anything, please let me know. What I will do once again is I will forward our public engagement mailbox. So Linda Grant and Emily who deal with communications predominantly from elected members of there to help you to give you answers. All you need to do is reach out to them. And I will share that email with Jess and she can forward it around to elected members if there is anything pressing in between these meetings you can get an answer. Thank you. Thank you very much. Just picking up one of the things that you were saying there, Matt, in respect to people letting flood water into your foul water system. Is there anything that you can and do do to prevent them doing that? And is there any enforcement powers? Are there any? Do you have the ability to take action against people doing that? I appreciate this is obviously people doing their best to try and help their own situation. But it may very well be causing all manner of problem further down the stream. And I can hear the arguments, Oh, it's only water. But if this was electricity, we wouldn't want people going up the polls and doing their own bit to help their community with a bit of wire or a switch. And I just wonder whether there's any opportunity for angling water to take this sort of thing as seriously as that. So there is legislation under the water industry. We could take action if we wanted to, but it's that sensitive position between understanding a resident's rights to defend their property and also trying to help them look at the bigger picture. Indeed, when we did start talking to residents, when parish counts got involved, some of those residents who have done that didn't realise the impact they were having and did stop doing that, some residents continue to do so. But there is legislation, I'll be honest, whether angling water wanted to go down that route. I don't think we would in most flooding events. I never say never, but the appetite currently isn't there. I don't think. Thank you. Councillor HAGES. Then Councillor SKINNER, please. Thank you, Chairman. Mike, after the last flood and drainage meeting on 19 February 2024, that's 18 weeks ago, Councillor Andrew HAGES is still yet to receive a response to his question about the foul drainage at Church Lane Silk will be following the floods. Today, no one has yet replied to him from angling water, including yourself, something he finds extremely disappointing. So questions from this committee obviously don't mean very much to angling water at times. It took a request from radio links and looked north to angling water following his question for someone at angling water to go and visit the residents concerned. So he is still awaiting an answer to his original questions. Several of the residents go without use of their downstairs toilets, basins and sinks when it rains, even in low periods of rainfalls. This isn't too bad for houses who can go upstairs, but bungalows cannot use these facilities at all and have to go elsewhere. Councillor HAGES wants to know if the issue is with the size of the foul or the inlet tanks into the treatment works requiring lodging or the number of bio filters needs increasing. Whatever, as this has been ongoing for 20 years, what are angling water going to do and over what timetable? I also understand that a similar issue occurs at Haynton with some residents only being able to use their upstairs toilets and basins. What is the programme for remedial work and our residents offer the rebate in their sewage charges? As global warming is likely to affect residents connected to combined sewers, a programme of separating foul unsurface water drainage needs to be put into effect. Has angling water got a programme together yet? And if so, when can we see it? As all housing developments in these locations have been required to have separate systems, any cost to provide a new off-site sewer is relatively low. And finally, you have supplied some information about emergency sewage overflows into water courses. How many of these occurred in dry weather and can we have locations and what is being done to reduce this? Thank you, Chairman. So, apologies about the previous question, not being asked about Church Lane. I have emailed about 12 public affairs team now and we will get your email address at the end and we will get back on that. In regards to the general point about the overwhelming of foul sewers in wet weather, the problem isn't so much the size of a foul sewers. Foul sewers are sized and designed to take the contents that is designed to go in them, which is foul only water. The problem comes when surface water and river water and water course water finds its way into those sewers and causes them to be easily overwhelmed and groundwater as well. The concluding result of that is that people then struggle to flush their toilets. Is there any rebate people can apply for when they don't have an effective sewage service? No, not presently. Under our guaranteed standard scheme, customers are eligible for a six-month rebate if they are externally flooded. And they are eligible for a one-year rebate of a sewage charge if they are internally flooded, but there is nothing in there if people simply suffer with a loss of toilets. In regards to the question about the biofilter, there isn't a new biofilter going in, it's silt will be, I think we may have answered this already. There is what we call phosphate reduction equipment going in to better comply with our environmental concerns, reduce phosphates. So phosphates come from things like washing powders and shower gels and things like that. So there is equipment going in, silt will be to reduce the phosphate contents of our final effluent, but there isn't an additional biofilter. So in regards to the separating of foul and surface water system work systems where we have combined networks, we don't currently have a program in place to do that. Our focus is removing sources of surface water away from foul and combined systems. So things like looking at downpipe rainwater planters, looking at suds retrofit, so sustained urban drainage solutions retrofit, and looking at removing those sources of surface water that actually get into our foul and combined sewer systems. So when we do get that rain, it operates just as it's a dry day and you wouldn't see the impact that people do now. Do you have anything else to come back with on that one? Thank you. Just picking up on, back on foul water, ground water, terminating foul systems through chambers of manholes. Do you have manholes that are able to seal against that sort of thing? Do you have manholes that were effective when they're locked in place that they're sealed and more or less waterproof? And are they in many locations? Are they things that you're installing? So you can buy sealed manholes. Manholes traditionally are built from brickwork, they're quite old. Nowadays you get the concrete rings that go up, but you can still get ground water ingress in between those concrete rings and in between brickwork. What we can do is we can line manholes and we do line sewer systems to stop that ground water ingress. The problem is at Scottwick, over the last 25 years we spent nearly £2m relining with sewers in Scottwick. And we still suffered terrible problems during storm event and storm hank. So it just goes to show that whilst relining our public sewer is something we can do at great expense, it doesn't actually solve the problem because customers' private assets are still unsealed and ground water will always find the next week's point into that sewer network. The other point to add about this point is the wider argument around, you know, our sewer systems are currently providing essentially an effective French drain for ground water to get into. And whilst that does cause capacity problems in our found sewer system, it stops that ground water causing flooding problems elsewhere. If we were able to re-line every single public and private sewer asset, that ground water would still come out somewhere else likely to cause blow holes in people's back gardens. So there has to be a wider discussion and conversations we're having with Matt's team already, and as part of Project Groundwater, about what we actually do about ground water generally, and actually is the relining of sewer assets and effective solution to deal with. Because whilst it solves our problems and allows people to flush their toilets when we get periods of high ground water, it doesn't solve the root cause flood risk that ground water is causing. Thank you very much for that. Councillor SKINNER, please. Thank you very much, Chairman. You did match an old leak. The previous conversation is quite relevant. You did promise an investigation. So two things really. I'm quite happy to help if you have the meetings. The other bit is I would like to know 18 weeks ago you said there would be investigations to where this water is coming from. I would like to know if you started and what the likely outcomes are going to be. I've listened very careful to where water comes from and we need to do it a bit more. But the last point I'll pick up, with phosphates, it's what we use in houses in various different products. You don't have to use it. We all have a responsibility. And even after angling water is finished with it, it ends up in our rivers and we have wheat growth that goes along with it. So we all have a responsibility. Thank you, Chair. So in regards to old leak, your participation in the MAG meetings will be most welcome. Councillor SKINNER and I will make sure our public affairs team sends you the invite. I know I made a note. In regards to the public survey, I think you're talking about the catchment survey we spoke about. So we did make a commitment to do that. I believe in the next six months that may or be expended six to nine months. The reason for that is a catchment survey is a labor intensive piece of work. We're used to outsourcing it. We don't outsource it anymore because we didn't like the results the contractor was giving us. So we do now do those in-house. And the honest truth is that the impacts of the wet winds have left us with a massive backlog. A backlog that we have been slower getting through them would probably like to be. So we are committed to do this catchment area survey of old leak. We stand by the commitment to do that. But it may be a little bit longer than we initially promised. So I would expect by sort of September, October time back would be completed. Thank you. Councillor Haynes. It's just a comment really when you mention French drains. We are in a very old cottage. And when we moved there, we used to get water coming up between the skirting board and floorboards quite serious for about a couple of years. And Councillor Haynes installed himself a French drain and I have to say it's worked perfectly ever since. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Ashley Morris, please. Many thanks, Mr Chairman. This is sort of really a general comment. I'm sure relevant to each of you. But we hear a huge amount of what sounded me like buzzwords. I mean one of my favourites all time is scoping. But we hear about strategies, investigations, this, that and Tove. And while I appreciate the mills of God grind slowly, they seem to grow and remarkably slowly. And the public aren't reassured by this and that's really what we're meant to be doing. I mean even if they're reassured by being told nothing's being done, at least they know something. And allowing for the fact that water bills drop through every door, certainly mine, it should be possible to at least do something that could perhaps go out with water bills. It obviously then reduces the cost enormously to let the public know that something is being done. Because I get, I mean I'm very fortunate being for Boston West in people had their gardens were a bit wet and that was it, which is terrific. But having been round with the storm impact sort of trips, horrified, horrified by what people have had to put up with. And they're still putting up with it with no information at all. And I feel that one of the things this committee can do is perhaps that. Now I would suggest we water bills because obviously water's the general theme of this. But surely, surely we can do something on a relatively regular basis to say this is being done or that's being done. I mean I sit and listen along with my colleagues to huge amounts of reassurance but it's not reassuring the public. And that's where we're really, really losing traction with people and people don't know about grants. I mean I was fairly horrified to hear that oh well actually if you if you're allowed a grant to see it actually doesn't go to you directly it's paying someone to come and tell you what to do. There's so many things that seem to be wrong and we seem to need in my opinion communication more than anything else. So I mean if everyone could perhaps take that award and if anyone said to me personally I'll come back to you with that you haven't. So I'd appreciate perhaps someone goes back over their notes and has a wee look because I find that very annoying it's oh well we'll tell you this we'll tell you that and it doesn't happen. OK that's probably my wee rant over thank you very much. You're absolutely right engagement is one of our biggest challenges. We've spoken about getting information out with water bills before we've got two challenges on that a lot of our customers actually opt out of what we call marketing and communications so we can't send leaflets out with water bills because of GDPR. Also the other problem is how many of those actually go straight and have been when those customers who do receive them how many of those marketing leave for such go straight and they aren't actually looked at. So we have looked at this before I would put the counter challenge back and say the same could be done with a lot along with people's council tax rates and there's a reason that you don't get a lot of marketing information with that you just receive your council tax bill and it's no different for water company. If you'd like to come back then come back to please. Very much yeah a council tax bill goes out once a year and your bill goes out in my case fairly or fairly regularly and I would have thought and a collaboration between the two is what this is all about because otherwise we've got the environmental agency sort of normally looking after newts and other people worrying about three-fold water in their kitchen so surely surely it must be possible for us to do something as I say there's a collaboration between the two but at least it avoids. I don't think this isn't advertising it's information it comes under a different category it's not you're not putting bucks she adds on water bills which with people have opted out of jolly on but you don't put your water bill in the bin you know you stick it on your desk and think 28 days I'll pay that. So all round I mean I don't see that as a valid really response to that let's try and get together and actually do something rather than talking about doing something thank you. So myself and Matt and Chris will talk offline about if there's anything we can do in terms of information out with bills or accounts tax or whatever it may be to better inform people but the point still stands it's a very valid point you made that people are worried they are apprehensive. We understand that I think it all the officers on the side of the chamber understand that we have to get across to those residents for assurance we don't do a very good job of it now and we have to get better at it. But it's one of our biggest challenges what we call the warning and informing element of flood risk is always one of the most challenging because you're always relying on people who want to listen and nine times out of ten people don't want to listen until they're flooded. I mean you can look back to please. Thanks. First of all can I ask about this GDPR. I don't understand like Dr. Morris why GDPR has got anything to do with angling water putting residents or customers information informative information what other kind of information can you have them informative information anyway putting information in with the water bill they're your customers you already have their data. There's information which is not necessarily some selling something and tell me why GDPR has got anything to do with it. We've had this discussion internally I can get a full legal response if you really want me to but the reason is that a water bill is a water bill it's not a water bill and a leaf full of information about about flood risk is a water bill that's what people sign up to receive. So if they want to receive other information relating to other aspects of water that's not that's not their water bill then they have to give their express express permission for that but I can give you I can give you with full legal response if you'd like to about why we can't do that or why we've struggled in the past to do that and I can get over to you if you really want that. Thank you through you. Yeah yes I do because I know you're not responsible for sending out each individual water bill map but it's a long side Brexit and COVID is excuses of our time for not doing stuff that's perfectly obvious what we ought to be doing. In other news thank you for the comments about Tellington is disappointing that after so many years of talking to Anglin Water and County and some healthy partnerships in the past about between the County and Anglin Water. Anglin Water's suggested approach now appears to be let's divest ourselves of the asset and let's get out of get out of Tellington and leave the problem there. I know that's not what you're saying I'm paraphrasing but I hope that the meeting on 24th of July can be something more than a kind of a fire exit or an escape strategy for Anglin Water. It's a problem that is faced by as you've said people that are desperately trying to protect their houses. We wouldn't blame any of them for trying to find whatever means necessary to stop themselves getting flooded and it's about it must be about infrastructure. Yes it's about climate change but it's also about infrastructure part of which is your responsibility. At the internal drainage board meeting lately of the Welland Deepings internal drainage board we talked about pipe linings and I can't remember the snazzy word for it but there is an easier way to line pipes now. Is it something that Anglin Water are using and investing in and is it working hopefully one of my many drainage board colleagues can tell me what exact system it is but it's a kind of a feed it through from a trailer and fix pipes like that. That's a kind of small pipe issue. We also have a big pipe issue which I've mentioned earlier on and I recognize that we're having a meeting next week or later this week about the system but given that this is a public meeting are you able to explain why work apparently appears to have stopped on the big blue pipe infrastructure project the slowest infrastructure project in Europe currently. Have you got any update on that and all the reservoir. Thank you. So in regards to spark a strategic pipeline lines for blue pipes and my colleague is hosting my meeting on Friday. I have been relaying your concerns to her now and the desire for public to be informed on the responses and that's not my meeting hour that Angela talk with the council is on Friday about how that message is put across. But it's not my projects. I'm not that deeply involved in it. All I know is that it's a very challenging project. It's a long, long project. We're not just talking 20 kilometers point to point. We're talking a much longer pipeline as a stretching from linkage down to our six. It is not an easy project to deliver. It's each sections at different phases. Some of it's got planning permissions. Some of it land purchases still going through. Some of it is still the legal process. It's not as simple as we agree the whole land where the pipes are going to go at the beginning of the project to do it. That's not how these projects are done. They're done in certain stages in different locations. But my colleague Andrew will give you a full day on Friday. Can I just come back on the other bits? We speak. Thank you. It was a subject of much concern at the recent Baston Parish Council meeting. Not just because of the inaction. I appreciate it. You don't send out the bills and you're also not responsible for that particular piece of infrastructure. But you are the Anglin Water Representative giving us information about recent activities in Lincolnshire. At Baston it was noted that one of the reasons given for the delay was that the pipes had kind of been floating, they'd become filled with water. No, it had not become filled with water, but it had become buoyant and flowing up. We talked about engineers. If you've got the biggest infrastructure project in Europe, then you should have engineers that recognise that if you have a large structure full of air, it's going to float. We couldn't fathom the kind of GCSE physics and the scale of infrastructure project and why there wasn't a more obvious answer. It's not a question for you now. It's just me passing on the frustration from Baston and other villages about why nothing appears to be happening. Sorry about that, Chair. Please carry on. Sorry, I'll make sure Angela is aware. That's just fine. In regards to the answer to the point about Tellington, the cost to resolve the problem as we call it is to basically put a pipe inside the existing coal that the surface, what we call runs long Tellington. The cost of that in 2017 was about £300,000. It cost about 2021 was half a million and due to inflation, the cost of that now is probably in region between half a million and a million pounds, million pounds being worst-case scenario. But as I said on the multi-agency group, it's not just about in Tellington itself, but once the surface water system comes into an open water course, although the IDB have said that it flows on the most part, there are parts where it has a slight backfall. And that water course is riparian owned. It's owned by the farmer that has the landed opposite via the jet station. So this isn't just as simple as saying we can resolve everything ourselves. You know, there's riparian assets that are also involved in this, where we're going to need the absolute community binding, potentially community funding for this as well, because riparian assets are responsible to see the land owners that own land adjacent to them. But, you know, a million pounds is the target we're trying to get to with the funding if angling water wanted to, you know, have an exit strategy as you alluded to earlier, we would have done that in 2021. We remain committed to resolve the problems in Tellington that goes to show with the over pumping, we very quickly arranged down Mill Lane for Richard who couldn't source his own pump. So we stepped up and did that, did all the deployment and have indeed covered 25% of the cost of those as well. So, you know, we are, we take the problems very seriously we are working in partnership. And if we wanted a quick exit quite frankly would have done that in 2021. We're still here. We're still trying to solve those problems. And I, I hope as every other officer does involved in Tellington that meeting on in later on in July, we will be able to have a successful funding mechanism to get the work done that we need to do. There's other issues like network rail, but sort of complex issues get ongoing, but we can't really influence. But, you know, we do remain committed to town, along with our colleagues from LCC and also the environment agency who will also be present about meeting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Do I have any further speakers on the angling water item? No. Thank you. Once again, Matt, for your update and contribution and answering members questions as thoroughly as what you have done. The presentation, of course, is noted and the comments of the committee, I'm sure, and your answers, I'm sure will be recorded. It takes us on to item eight, which is the internal range board update. As I said at the beginning of the meeting, I hope that this is now a regular item on each agenda, enabling a representative from the Lincolnshire internal drainage boards to provide an update on ID activities. Today, we've got Jane Froggett, the chief executive of three Lincolnshire IDBs. Welcome, Jane. Thank you for your patience, waiting for item eight to come around. Incredibly grateful for you to be able to join us today. So I shall hand over to you. If I could, please. Thank you very much, Chairman. Can everybody hear me all right? Is that OK? As Chairman said, I can only speak for the four boards in the Witherman Humber group, not able to talk for all my colleagues, but I did actually make more aware at the end of last week that I would be joining you today. So I think some of the issues I'm going to update you on a pertinent cross the piece for all IDBs, and then I would like to particularly focus on the £75 million IDB recovery fund that's been available, been made available nationally, and just tell you where we are with that. There are four sort of focusing on that. If I just give you a general update on what's been happening really since your last meeting in February. So I think taking stock on where we were in February, we've clearly had the very wet months really since Storm Babette on the 20th of October, and that hit particularly in Lincolnshire, and particularly in two of our four boards. With them third was most affected, and with them first, just by virtue of where those heavy rainfall patterns where assets were inundated. So it's been a pretty bleak few months. We're not out of the woods yet. We have had 17 of our 53 pumping stations inundated by heavy rainfall events, either in Storm Babette, the heavy rainfall after that, or indeed Storm hang on the 2nd of January. So we are still in the process of a major recovery program, getting those pumping stations repaired and fully operational again. So just some side lines there for you to be aware of that we have still got deployed a number of EA national mobile pump assets across Lincolnshire. At the height of the heavy rainfall events, we had 27 pumps deployed. Now that's unprecedented. I've never known as have that kind of volume of additional temporary pump facility helping us out in Lincolnshire. And that's pertinent really to something I'll go on to a little later about how we've structured the bid for recovery and indeed resilience on the £75 million that's been made available nationally. Because I think none of us can rely on the fact that those assets would be available to us every time we have a heavy rainfall event in Lincolnshire. So we do need to factor in what we can do about increasing our capacity, although as has been said several times this morning, it was the wettest few months since 1871 records began, and hopefully we will not be facing a 1 in 1000 year rainfall event anytime soon. But you never know, and we may do, therefore we need to try and gear up to maximize our capacity. So where we were in February was that we'd submitted a statement of claim on the 19th of December to colleagues at the environment agency through the regional flood defence committee, the RFCC. And I stress that that was not for our own IDB costs incurred during the heavy rainfall events, it's quite right, the proper appropriate that we meet the costs of dealing with our own heavy rainfall event. That's what our revenue budgets and what our reserves are there for. But what we did need to claim, because there's no other route available to us and that was something highlighted to you in February, that we have no direct access as smaller public bodies which we classified as IDBs. We had no route into any sort of national recovery mechanism. We can sometimes apply on the back of district council bellwin funding formula, but in this particular series of rainfall events that didn't apply wasn't invoked for some very good reasons. So there was no direct funding mechanism applicable. So what we applied to the RFCC for was the funding for third party costs incurred. So where we had, again, not an issue of fault and blame, but just an issue of fact, where we had the 13 breaches in EA main river and significant over topping on those main river systems and high levels of seepage into IDB systems. It was that third party water that was never designed to come into our systems, which did come in, and which in our particular case of our 53 pumping stations inundated 17 of them and rendered many inoperable. Some are still inoperable, Coningsby, which was mentioned earlier today, some of us met on site last week to see the breach repair that I'm pleased to say is being affected is just about another two weeks before that's completed by the EA's contractor, Jackson's, and that actually will then enable us to complete the refurbishment of that pumping station at Coningsby because you'll appreciate our pumping station asset being only 30 yards away from an EA breach. It's of some concern to us as to how and when we reinstate that the pumps out for refurbishment. It'll cost us in total about £200,000 worth of repairs at that particular site, which is illustrative of the £1.6 million program of repairs where we've currently got underway. We're refurbishing the pump, putting in some resilience measures, and we're also putting in a new motor control panel, which in itself will be circa £100,000 once completed. And then we're raising them. We can't raise them to the EA main river flood defence level, but we're raising them as far as we're technically able to to try and give us just some local resilience for future heavy rainfall events. It won't future proof them, but it will build in as much resilience as we're able to achieve technically within the pumping station that we have there. So those are the sorts of things we're busy and on with now. Some good news is that we were successful in that statement of claim that was submitted to the RFCC and presented to them on the 19th of January. And they gave us the green light to put those in as flood defence grant in aid bids. After a lot of special pleading, we didn't have to complete 17 business cases, which we were originally going to have to do to refurbish the pumping stations that were inundated. We produced one outline business case, but we had to produce the FCERM forms for all 17 sites to go with in a company that business case. We did get, I'm pleased to say, the confirmation that all of those cases were supported and I'm very grateful to the RFCC and to the EA system for actually granting us that money. So the revenue monies came in literally 465,000 pounds across the four boards affected just before the end of March, and we were able therefore to avoid the boards having significant revenue deficits at the year end position. Each of them achieved a small year end surplus, about 16 grand, 15 and 17 I think it was for two of the boards and 40,000 pounds for each of the other two boards. They would have otherwise faced a couple of hundred thousand pounds of deficit, which would have seriously depleted reserves. One of the big cost factors, I'll just update on electricity whilst I'm on the update phase, but electricity, which I think we've bought to this committee before, has been one of our big cost drivers in IDBs. So where we spend a lot of our money, if you can imagine in the four boards pumping stations, we spend a phenomenal amount. We had to budget last year 2324 for 807,000 pounds worth of electricity. That was a massive increase on the year before, and some of you in the chamber will be aware that's why IDBs across the piece put up our penny rates, which in turn increases the special levy to district and borough councils and the drainage rates. It's a driver for the drainage rates to our many account holders in our case 2000 drainage rates account holders who are the owners or occupiers of parcels of land. I have to say that even though we massively increased our budget, so if I give you one example, with the first drainage board that has 13 pumping stations and is entirely a pumped set of catchments, it can't rely on gravity in any of its catchments. It previously had a budget of 69,000 pounds a year in 2223 for electricity, and that met its electricity costs. Last year, because of the increase in the unit rate, but also this massive increase that some of you are aware of that IDBs have faced in electricity standing charges, the costs we incur to have the availability and distribution of electricity to our pumping stations before we even switch a pump on, that board had to increase its budget to 305,000 pounds for 2324, which explains the high increase in the penny rate. But if I tell you that the boards actually spent 1.2 million, 1,180,573 pounds in 2324 on electricity, in that example to follow through that I've just given to you with them first, where we've budgeted for 305,000 pounds from a previous 69,000. We actually spent 554,000 pounds on electricity costs in 2324, that was all pumping water. It's interesting listening to other discussions about public water supply and reservoirs, but we were actually pumping considerable amounts of water away last winter, and it cost us just short of 1.2 million pounds. Now that is with 17 of our pumping stations at times, inoperable. Goodness knows what the cost would have been if we were running those pumps right through all those months in storm the bet in October. The reality was, as I say, we had deployed mainly across two of our four boards, we had 27 EA National Asset mobiles deployed that were running on diesel. Thank heavens in some way that they were, because I dread to think what our electricity costs otherwise would have been. So that's a bit of background on where we are and how we're refurbishing our assets at the moment, and if you like some of the challenges in doing that, as you can imagine with that scale of, well, absolute devastation really to our assets. We are using pump repairs, and we have got a number of suppliers that vary from Huddersfield to Lincoln to Spalding to wherever you can. We've got our assets out on their benches being repaired, so it is a phenomenal program of repairs that's underway at the moment to get us back and fully fit for action once again. So just moving on then really to where we are across Lincolnshire, and I know colleagues couldn't join us from the EA today, but I did mention to colleagues from the EA and my IDB colleagues that I would just raise our concerns about the level at the moment of the EA breaches that remain in main river assets, I think it would be remiss of that not to be raised today, and clearly at a site meeting that I was present and others in the room on Thursday. It was confirmed to us that upstream of the Conning's be repair that we were there to see the Tumbie Swan breach, which has been mentioned earlier. There are no plans at the moment to repair that breach. Now, clearly for our with and third board, that does have implications, because if that was the default position and no repair is affected, the consequence of that is it's effectively rerouting main river across and into an IDB system, which is not designed to take that water, and certainly we're not resourced to pump away the consequences of that. So I would just raise that, and a colleague has just asked me to raise that actually, although breaches, there may not be any new money available nationally or to Lincolnshire to do them. But there is a process, there is a statutory main river map nationally, and there is a process to be followed. In other words, our colleagues at the EA cannot willy-nilly alter the course of the main river without going through a formal process that is set out nationally under section 193C of the Water Resources Act 1991. So I would just flag that, because clearly some of my with and third board members have concerns that if breaches in Lincolnshire are not repaired, then that could set precedent for the future about the rerouting of main river. And they have asked me to raise that at the last meeting, they did ask me to make sure that that is understood well by all concerned that there are implications if these breaches are not repaired, and it could set precedent for the future. So I just flag that to you, said I would, and as I say, that's where we are in terms of our immediate day-to-day and our repairs, and the status of that, and I'm pleased the repairs are underway. However, what I would like to just focus on briefly now is what was announced at the NFU National Conference in February, which was that £75 million was to be made available nationally for IDP, IDB recovery funding from the floods that we've all suffered. And I like to think that Lincolnshire has played its part in securing that money nationally, in that many of you in this room have been part of the meetings we've hosted of the flood minister, flood and water minister, Robbie Moore. We've had a visit from the shadow of flood minister, we've had the EA chairman visitors, the EA chief executive on a separate visit, and on another separate visit, the EA's chief engineer, who was actually present with us when we went round on a tour and saw one of the breaches actually before our very eyes out on Barlene's O there. So, I think having punched our weight to get that money levered in, and the argument we made when all those people visited was that the current flood defence grant in aid system is responsive and understandably deals with the pressure to protect people and properties, so chimney pots, counts, residential properties and businesses. But I'm afraid it doesn't do much for the agricultural productive land in Lincolnshire, and we were able to make the point to some of those that visited that actually some of our pumping stations that were put in as part of the lower within valley scheme to increase agricultural production post-second world war. Some of those assets are now coming to the end of their design life, and there are no plans to be able to replace them, and whereas some of our pumping stations, we've just got the green light for example on one in Woodall's Spa, they benefit from the number of properties they protect, but some that are not in that position are unlikely to secure funding. So, we were given an assurance that that had been listened to, and hence this funding route on the £75 million announced for IDBs has come through the food and farming resource, it's not come through the usual flood defence grant in aid route, and that is if you like, we like to think geared therefore more towards the protection of agriculture, and that's how we've skewed some of the bids that we're putting in. So, really just to finish with a quick summary of where we are on that, the 75 million nationally has been divided roughly as 25 million for a set of tranche one bids which had to be in for the 7th of January, and which are aimed at IDB recovery of assets, and then for our particular four boards, we submitted 4.5 million's worth of bids in 23 schemes, and then the tranche two of submissions have got to be in for this Friday the 28th, and that's where the 50 million of the 75 million is notionally sitting. That's aimed more at resilience measures and betterment if you like some improvement and resilience of assets. From what I understand, the tranche one bids that had to be in on the 7th of June are already over subscribed, just a quick straw poll with colleagues around Lincolnshire. Ours is the same, we're just under 4.5 million 23 schemes, similar sorts of sums have gone in from colleagues in other IDBs, and nationally we understand that there's 40 million pounds worth of bids gone in against an allocation of a split of about 25 million on this 75 million for recovery, and then the other 50 million will go against the schemes for asset resilience and improvement which have got to be in this Friday. So, the sorts of things we've gone for, and ours are no different from what my colleagues tell me in other parts of Lincolnshire they've put in for, we have 1.5 million of what we've gone for on recovery is for bank slip repairs. Many of you will be aware that the damage that's been done to IDB assets, not just pumping stations, but to a lot of our penstocks, a lot of our banks, the fragility we now have on a lot of our water courses of banks means that there is a program of work there that could take us years. So we're trying to fast track doing some of that, and go through a procurement process to appoint contractors to do some of that work for us so that we can focus on some of the other work we need to do, and we would contract that out to try and get a program of bank slip reinstatement works underway. We've also, as I say, gone for some measures which are to recover damaged assets, so the automatic weed screen cleaners that have been damaged and knocked out of action. We've honed in ongoing for those, and we've also gone for increasing some of our mobile capacity, which we're also putting into tranche to as well as our colleagues in other IDBs, because as I say, we recognise we've been fortunate this time that we're the only fortunate bit of the very severe rainfall events is that a lot of it was concentrated in Lincolnshire. We were able to benefit from having 27 mobile, national EAS, it's deployed. We don't know that we'd ever be able to get that proportionate amount of mobiles deployed in Lincolnshire again, so we need to do something about increasing our mobile as well as our static capacity. That gives you a flavour of the sorts of bids we're putting in between us all, and happy to take any questions. I think that's where we're at, and perhaps I ought to just say, we should know the outcome we're told by the end of July on those bids. The downside, it's a bit like for those of you that have been involved up in the leveling up bids, we have until the 31st of March 25 to spend this money. There is nothing that can carry forward whatsoever. We are very, very pleased that there is the opportunity to try and leave her in that money into Lincolnshire. One of the things we're doing is we've restated all of the bids that we put in and have had funded, in our case the 1.6 million bounds worth, of repairs supported by the RFCC and EA business case to the EA. We have gone for that on the basis of if we can get that reinstated then to the RFCC, that helps the resiliency in Lincolnshire, so we've restated that statement of claim as well as adding to it. But it's worth a try. The downside of it is, it's really good news, but the downside is we are limited into the nature of what schemes we can go for because we need to be able to make sure that it's things we can complete by the end of March 25. I'll pause there. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you. I've got Councillor Fleetwood please. Yes, I'd like to thank Jane and the various individuals she represents beneath her for doing the work that's necessary to make sure that these grants and these payments are coming to Lincolnshire and they do need to be spent in this zone. A lot of meetings have been held by the great and good and they've come around and they've looked at various things, tea and biscuits have been consumed and I don't know what else. But then the various people have just disappeared and they've disappeared to other parts of the UK that probably made similar stories, similar conversations with other parts of the UK. The real issue we have is that we need to make sure that they understand that Lincolnshire is low lying, Lincolnshire is at risk, and Lincolnshire does need the money spending here. So, you know, the problem is that various ministers can come and go, who knows, an election in a couple of weeks time, some of them might go completely, they might not even be in the political circle. So, you know, it's just a question of making sure that that message does go through and does get adopted, and I do mean adopted as something whereby we make sure the funds come in our direction. We've already talked about Slippage on Banks, we've talked about Slippage on drainage board banks, I alluded to the with them earlier on, which is an environment agency asset, and, you know, the money needs to come from somewhere. So, going back to what Collins comments were earlier on, no matter which government, we just need to register the Lincolnshire's on the map. The, I was just picking up those points, the point would, the great fear, isn't it, that we have a dry summer and perhaps a dry winter, and the flood is an event for the last 12 months have been, will at that point be effectively forgotten. And frankly, if storm baba and Hank and the effect that they had on Lincolnshire doesn't engender, it certainly hasn't done a step change in how this stuff is done funded nationally. The 75 million is great, but if I'm writing thinking the constraints on having to spend that by a given deadline, almost guarantee that better value for money schemes that take longer into planning. I'm not able to come forward and can't be, can't benefit from this, from this kind of investment. And we've already heard that it's great that this money is coming to internal drainage boards, but equally the environment agency hasn't had a significant uplift in its funding nationally in order to cut in order to address these issues. And to get ahead on some of the maintenance stuff we've heard from Councillor Gray earlier today that maintenance in some circumstances is potentially being rode back on. And it's this kind of thing that is absolutely necessary to prevent the breaches to prevent the failures of systems, which has caused so many of the problems that we're having to address as we speak. Councillor Beall, please. Thank you, Chair. It's interesting that the funding has come more as a result that it's recognised that we're funding, we're a farming community, rather than the fact that people live here as well. With the deadline on spending money, do you envisage Jane and thank you for your presentation? Do you envisage that there are problems where you have to order new equipment, the lead time getting that equipment in, please. Thank you. Thank you for that question, because yes, I just would stress, and we will find ways and means round things, but we've contacted all major pump suppliers at the moment, and the lead time for submersible pumps, for example, is about 35 to 40 weeks at the moment. We're not expecting to know until the end of July, whether or not we are successful in all the bids that have gone in, and as I say, the second tranche due in this Friday, and we will submit, but you raise a pertinent point, because, of course, we'll be inventive, and I'm sure you'll not minute me on everything on this, but we'll find ways of getting a certificate of assurance from the supplier, and we'll pay 60% up front. We'll try not to limit our ambition, but clearly, one of the big issues for us is to try and increase our pump capacity. Goodness knows when we hope we don't face another but better than Hank, but we will do some time. We hope we don't face them soon, but certainly we want to increase our capacity, but one of the limitations is the lead time on some of these assets, yes. Thank you for that. Colleagues, do you have any further questions on the IDB issues that's coming up? I know you touched on this, some of this, Jane, but do we have a rough idea of what percentage is that 75 million to IDB is likely to come to Lincolnshire? We don't. All I can hope is that because we were very severely affected, I would hope that our bids into the first phase, the 25 million of the 75 million, I think we've got some very good legitimate claims there, and I'm hoping that Lincolnshire PLC is able to lever in a good share of that 25 million, but there's 40 million pounds worth of bids in against it, I'm told. The other, I wouldn't like to speculate because I think the other 50 million for improved asset resilience, I think we can all forecast that's going to be, we're all going to be in a scramble to try and get our hands on that money, and that'll be across all the counties. It does seem remarkable that it's split down into these tranches, with the end deadline, I'm a writer thinking that Spender, he'll say, is March of next year, and there are still the time scale between a bid being put in and approved on the later stages is going to be even shorter in order to get through to delivery. I'm not sure we're wearing government nationally, it's set, we've been trying to find out since February when the announcement was made at the NFU National Conference what the funding criteria were going to be, who would be overseeing it, would it be ADA, would it be Deaf for themselves. So, it's really only in the last three weeks or so that we've actually been invited to put the bids in, and it was a short order turnaround. I think we'd all speculated on how it would be structured, and we'd started to sort of get some that we're oven ready to go, but we've had to fill out all the forms and do the cases for each of, in our case, 23 schemes. And I don't think what we've done is dissimilar from what others have been working on. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking us through the issues affecting the Witherman Humberboard, and likewise, I think the county as a whole owes our ID being a huge debt of gratitude for the work that they do day to day in keeping us safe from flooding. But also the ability just to turn round in a shorter timeframe as you've been given to bring some of these bids forward to get those bids in to meet those deadlines and to have that certainty that the engineering on the ground will be completed in what I certainly feel is a ridiculous time scale. I think a genuine testament to the professionalism and capacity that we have in our ID, but we're very grateful for that. I think we can say with some certainty that the information will certainly be noted as we'll comment and feedback from the committee. And obviously we have in the work program the suggestion that this is a standing item included on each agenda to enable an update to be presented on behalf of the Lincolnshire internal drainage boards. And I'm quite happy if colleagues are to leave that to the Lincolnshire and the well and lean branches of ADA to work out what works for ID because as much as anything as to as to item coming forward and obviously if members have specific issues that they wish to hear from the board in relation to then we can feed that through so we can pick that up for future meetings as well. So one can genuinely thank you Jane for your time with us this morning, which does bring us on to item nine, which is the flood and water management committee work program pages 31 to 32 of our pack. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. So I would like to inform members of this committee that following the previous item as we heard an item on behalf of the Lincolnshire internal drainage boards will be included in each agenda going forward. Number two, I'd like to inform you that since the these agenda was dispatched, we have had an item confirmed for the meeting of the 20 January 2025. And titled LGA special interest group on drainage levees, James Gilbert and Christine Marshall will be attending to present this item. They are both leading officers for the LGA special interest groups. And this concludes my update to you. If there's any further items or any further topics that you would like to see being included or explored, please do liaise with me or Simon Evans at your convenience. Thank you very much. Colleagues, open to you. Is there anything you'd like to see as a matter of urgency on the next agenda, though just one thought that I did have appreciating that we're heading towards summer. I know we've had site visits as Councilor Beall go for it before I come in. Thank you with apologies for this comment. With regards to the meeting, sort of January 25 where we have Christine Marshall and James Gilbert here. One sincerely hopes that by then we will have an indication as to how the special interest group have got on. Thank you. I'll be more than happy to liaise and make sure that this is answered during the meeting. Thank you. What I was just coming to appreciate we've had as part of the storm impact working group. We've had site visits as part of our work with that working group. We did last year have a appropriately time field trip to look at the Lindsey Marsh part of Lincolnshire. Literally a few days before Storm Babette. I'm just wondering if there would be appetite from the committee to perhaps have a field trip in another direction. I know there was discussion last year around groundwater stuff up in Northeast Lincolnshire and the Grimpicly thought, which is particularly interesting. Alternatively, there are southern and western parts of Lincolnshire that there may be activities about drainage boards of the environmental agency of Angling Water of other partners, which it would be useful to go get a look at. I think the experience from the trip round Lindsey Marsh last year and looking at some of those coastal issues was really, really useful. And it just broadens our horizon broadens our understanding of the geography of the area that we are representing. So is that something that you would be happy as committee to take a part in? I see general sort of nonsense. So if we work on dates and times and what works, we can come back to you and keep you updated. Thank you very much for that. I understand the we have got further meetings of the another couple of meetings are going to be needed for the storms impact working group, which obviously is the entire membership of this committee, and we will keep you updated as to when we can get those in the diary. We have, I think rocks top my head further stuff to pick up around the detailed section 19 investigations, and then we're going to need to have a proper sit around the table and thrash out our recommendation and start writing what we would like to see in Lincolnshire in the future. That concludes the business of our meeting today. Thank you so much, everybody for your time, attention and attendance today. Enjoy the rest of your afternoon for the safe journey to wherever you're off to next once again. Thank you very much. [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO]