Transcript

Good morning. And welcome to the multi-location meeting of the Education, Young People and Welsh Language Truthtony Committee. Fire alarm. There is no fire alarm test planned today. Therefore, for anyone joining from a Council building, should the alarm sound, it will not be a test and you should follow the appropriate fire exit signs. Webcasting of meetings. Before proceeding today, I have to remind everyone present that the proceedings of today's meeting are being filmed live and may be kept on the Council's internet site as an archive record of the meeting. The images and sound recording may also be used for training purposes within the Council. Translation units, microphones. Members and guests who have joined through Zoom who wish to receive simultaneous interpretation from Welsh to English should click on the interpreter symbol at the bottom of the screen and then choose English. Those who are in attendance in the chamber should use the translation device and microphone provided. Members of the public watching the meeting via the English language webcast will receive Welsh to English simultaneous interpretation automatically. If remote members lose connection during the live meeting, please make every attempt to reconnect, however the meeting will continue so long as the meeting is quarant. I should also explain that if there are any members of the public joining the meeting today, you are consenting to being filmed and to those images appearing on the Council's internet site and in the archive record of the meeting and may also be used for training purposes within the Council. This processing of personal information is necessary for the performance of a task carried out in the public interest by the Council and in the exercise of official authority vested in the Council. Can I ask the members and officers present in the meeting today to please introduce yourselves before speaking. Furthermore, can I remind the committee members who are in attendance remotely to have their cameras on for the duration of the meeting and not just when speaking. We have Mr Gethin Riches from Ascola Beydol and Ellen Powell from Ascol Gandrath-Pennial who are in attendance today in respect of the Additional Learning Needs update report set out at item 4 of the agenda. A warm welcome to you both. Very well, so we will proceed to the agenda. Please for absence, there are no apologies today, thank you. Declarations of personal interest, including party whips issued in relation to any agenda item. You all have a responsibility under the Code of Conduct to verbally declare any personal interest you may have in relation to any item appearing on the agenda today. Please ensure that you clearly indicate which agenda item you have a personal interest in and the specific nature of the interest to be disclosed. You will also need to repeat your declaration of personal interest at the commencement of the relevant agenda item and indicate whether or not you will be withdrawing from the meeting during the consideration of that item. I must also remind members that party whips are not allowed at scrutiny. If there is one in operation, it must be declared and members subject to the whip will not be allowed to vote on any issue subject to a whip. Can members please raise your hand if you wish to declare an interest and/or if a party whip has been issued in relation to any agenda item before you today. Bettson, Councillor Bettson-Jones. I'd like to declare an interest in item 5. I have a son who is a head teacher in the county, but I've been given a dispensation from the standards committee to speak and to give written representation but not to vote on any decision. Thank you. Anyone else? No. So we'll proceed to item 3, public questions. I can confirm that no public questions have been received. We will now move on to agenda item 4. Additional learning needs transformation update, page 5 in your agenda pack. At the request of the committee, we have before us an update on the progress made regarding the implementation of the additional learning needs and education Tribunal Wales Act and the areas of best practice and pupils with additional learning needs within Camarthenshire. The committee is requested to review and assess the information and provide any recommendations, comments or advice to the cabinet member, director and/or head of service. I will now call upon Councillor Glenon Davis, cabinet member for education and Welsh language, to present the report, please. Thank you, Glenon. Thank you, chair. Well, ALN, they are acronyms which should be familiar to us all. And we are aware of the new act which has been introduced. But how are things progressing? That's the important question for us here today. The intention was to provide a better provision, to create a system which is more united in order to support learners, learners up to the age of 25 who need additional support. It's a statutory framework and the aim by Welsh Government and the local authorities is to ensure that every learner who has ALN receives every support to withstand any obstacle that may face them in terms of their education. It's important, extremely important that these children, these young people, are given every possible opportunity to reach their full potential. So we have to create a framework which is united and legal to support every child who has ALN, which is of a compulsory school age or younger. We have to create an assessment process which is integrated and which is collaborative. We need to plan a monitoring system for the support which is needed. What is important here is that we have an effective intervention system and an early system that we understand these children, that we know their needs and the ability to intervene early. What happens has to be fair, it has to be equitable, it has to be transparent in order to provide information and advice. Solving any concerns or any appeal is essential. As an authority, we have been working on this and what is happening in this area for a long time. There is a pilot section which is being developed and piloting the changes as a result of this act. Well, you've asked for a report on the progress which is being made in terms of implementing this new act. And so we will have a presentation from two of our officers, our inclusion officers. And also, as has already been stated, Gethin Richards from the Scholl Beedol is here and also Eileen Powell from Scholl Peniel, I should have noted that, and I'm sure that we wish to know what's actually happening in our classrooms, what's happening in our schools. How have they succeeded in introducing this new act and the new requirements? How are things progressing? I think that's the important question. So with that introduction, Chair, I'll hand over to the officers. I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Rebecca Williams. I'm the Additional Learning Needs Manager for Commerbenshire together with my colleague who is sitting to my left, Eleanor Williams. In relation to the implementation and activity to embed the new ALN system, I just wanted to highlight some key positives that have been going on in Commerbenshire. And to alert you to what's been working well in Commerbenshire, I'll then hand over briefly to Eleanor to look at the key strategies that -- sorry, the key challenges that remain. We don't want to take up too much of your time because what we're saying is already in the report. And as Glenelg has said, we want to hear directly from how implementation is working within our schools. But I would like to start with saying that the reforms have largely been welcomed by schools, practitioners, stakeholders, parents, and carers. Additional learning needs coordinators in our schools have shown themselves to be enthusiastic and committed to the new system, although at times compromised by the workload, which during the implementation period is particularly heavy when you've got an old system and a new system to run. The Alenco role, however, and commensurate pay are currently under consideration by Welsh government. Where additional learning needs coordinators are members of the senior leadership team of a school, they are in a position to champion additional learning needs and the support required across all aspects of a school's life. However, we are aware that in some schools and in smaller schools, Alencos are not part yet of the senior leadership team. We have noted within Commerbenshire steady progress to monitor and review provision to meet the requirements of the code, and this has been seen in all schools. They are encouraged to consider their local offer of provision and to make sure that it meets the changing needs of changing cohorts going through the system. Commerbenshire schools have worked hard to develop workforce capacity and to deliver transformation within the timeframe set by Welsh government. All schools are able to understand person-centred planning approaches, and they identify the needs of learners early to make prompt and effective provision. Commerbenshire schools have a sound understanding of their responsibilities in relation to individual development plans, how to create them, how to work decision-making processes that identify needs and how to run the ongoing reviewing of pupils' individual development plans. Commerbenshire schools have embedded person-centred practices, planning practices and approaches in their day-to-day activities. For those learners who in the new system are no longer identified with additional learning needs, Commerbenshire schools implement strategies to continue to meet this set of learners' needs and provide ongoing progress monitoring as appropriate, and the learners continue to receive suitable targeted support. Cultural inclusion team support with cluster working has supported school-to-school working, sharing of good practices and sharing of resources. Additional learning needs school support visits delivered by the ALN advisory team offer ongoing support with tracking pupil progress and tailored school visits to address ALN transformation and quality assurance. Through the support of central services, the close working relationship and guidance documentation has supported all our schools to apply the Act and the Code, ensuring consistency in determining additional learning needs and additional learning provision. Within Commerbenshire, we of course have parity of provision providing bilingual system. We have bilingual resources, assessments, staffing and sufficient specialist provision in both English and Welsh. Following the Estyn inspection, Commerbenshire was then also successful in hosting the national lead programme for Welsh Government and is currently working on an ongoing basis with the national Welsh language lead to develop Welsh language tools and resources both here in Commerbenshire and nationally. So those are some of the key areas of progress that we have identified within our schools. We know that there remain challenges and I'm going to ask my colleague, Eleanor, to talk to you about the challenges that remain to us. Thank you. Thank you, Rebecca. The advantages far outweigh the negatives but there are challenges of implementing ALN. Cute challenges and also challenges which will be with us for quite some time as the system embeds itself. The main challenges for us as an authority are nurturing the ability of our schools to develop to become inclusive schools, consistency and quality assurance across all schools, collaboration with all stakeholders, re-planning methods for the early years and also post-16 education. These challenges come under the cloud of austerity. All of these challenges are being dealt with in our schools on a daily basis. It is very important that opportunities are given to our schools to share their experiences so that you get a feel of what they have felt in their journey. So welcome and thank you to Geithin Richards, the head of the school and Tom Eyrie was the assistant head teacher for St John Lloyd's. He has enjoyed her inclusion team as an advisory teacher. So thank you all and if I can hand over to Geithin, I think you are to go first. Thank you and good morning all and thank you for that introduction, Elena and Rebecca. As Elena and Rebecca mentioned, the intention of having us three here today is to present to you what they mentioned in terms of successes and authority level but how that looks in our schools. As mentioned, I'm Geithin Richards, head of a scholar at Baydole and next to me here are Gail Roberts who is responsible for coordinating ALN. As has been mentioned, ALN transformation is on a journey. We're on this journey now for quite some time. I don't think we'll ever get to the end of that journey but along that journey there have been successes and strengths but also as has been acknowledged, there are also challenges along that journey. So the intention this morning is for me to share those with you and to talk a little bit about the future and what we see and how the bill will actually transform. But when we're looking at ALN transformation, what is key from the outset is that we sell it to our staff but not as some sort of a bill or law that comes from government. But ALN transformation, as Glenog mentioned, that we need to identify the needs of our pupils, that good teaching happens on the classroom that meets the needs of every pupil to reach their full potential, that is what ALN transformation is about. So that's what we are aiming for. So just briefly, if I can tell you a little bit about the school context. We are a Welsh medium primary school in the Amun area. We have 320 pupils currently in the school, 12 mainstream classes and more recently we've just opened two specialists with children who have autism. There are eight pupils in each of those classes and that's funded by the authority. It's different to our core funding. Our FSM, I have two figures, 33%, that's what it has been for a number of years, but more recently it's fallen, we are now down to around 25%. Various reasons for that but largely that the pupil has a right to receive FSM. It has an effect, of course, on our grants in terms of other funding that we receive for ALN. We are a flying start area with a high deprivation in the Amun Valley. We are a three to 11 school but we also have a Kilk Mitrin and also a flying start provision on site and that's key when I talk about the successes. The pupils are on our site from the age of two onwards. So we get to know these children very early, especially those children who have ALN. I won't go through these in detail but it gives you a little bit of context of the challenges that we face as a school. We use a number of agencies to support us, the team around the family, et cetera, the number of safeguarding issues that come up every day and that runs hand in hand with meeting the needs of the pupils who have additional learning needs. The late arrivals to the school, over 20% of our pupils were not with us in the reception class, so a number of pupils moving into the area during the year. That brings challenges in itself, very often these pupils bring the additional learning needs and when we're looking at the transformation of ALN, we have to intertwine, whether they come from England or from another county, to that the systems that they are familiar with and that the parents understand the systems that we have as a school and as a county. And then Welsh speakers at home, even though the Amun Valley and Glen Amun have a tradition of Welsh speakers, 92% of our pupils speak English at home. Possibly one parent who speak Welsh but English is the medium of the language at home. So language is also key when we take all of this into consideration. So for us as a school, we have a simple structure and as we've moved from the old system to the new system, the old system gave recognition to our school procedures and also then we had the one page profile, one page profile plus and then the IDP. The pupils who have those IDPs, so the peak of that triangle are our pupils who have that IDP. But what we were eager to do as a school, as we move from one system to another system, we don't want to lose those pupils who did receive a provision under the old system, the one page profile and the one page profile plus, so we've created a middle layer where our pupils received a one page profile and a one page profile plus in the school. So every pupil has a one page school right across the school. If we then identify early that there's a need, then we set specific targets for those pupils to ensure that the provision that they need is in place. That provision is often an universal and holds school provision and then we regularly monitor them, whether that pupil is making progress, if not, then we have that conversation with parents early and then move on to the next step in the triangle. What is key in terms of this triangle, it's not a system that stands still, a child can move along that system in both directions. In the old system what would happen if a child received a statement, then quite often that statement would be with that child throughout their school life, rather than the possibility of moving as the child made progress and developed. So just to show you just as an interest what our documentation looks like at school, that's the one page profile that I mentioned, every pupil will have one of these, whether they have additional learning needs or not. These are created in collaboration with parents, so the parent voice is key in this process. We consult with the parents regularly, this is created in the home, in the language of the home, so that the parents feel that they are part of this process with us as a school. So if we feel that the pupil is not making the expected progress, then we introduce the one page profile plus and we then identify specific targets, a specific provision for that child and we monitor progress on a regular basis. Just for interest and information, 80 pupils are currently in that step in the school. This is not a statutory step within the new bill or act, it's a step that we take as a school to ensure that we meet the needs of the pupils who may not have specific additional learning need. But after setting the whole school process, we identify that there may be no progress happening, then we introduce the individual development plan for those pupils. And the IDP identifies the additional provision that that pupil needs and quite often if we discuss that additional provision, then staff and adults is that additional provision. So our successes, and as mentioned by officers, the successes of the transformation ALN bill is far greater than the challenges. So if we go through the successes for us as a school to begin with, the biggest success or opportunity for ALN transformation is that flexibility. I spoke about the flexibility about the pupil moving along that ALN system, but we feel it gives us the flexibility in terms of the funding. The funding in Comarthenshire has now been devolved to the school in terms of ALN, and again we have that flexibility to identify our needs as a school and to put that provision in place. A perfect example of that, last September we had a group of pupils in year five who have wellbeing, trauma, problems and specific behaviours, some six pupils. Historically we would have had to go to a panel to ask for additional finance to meet the needs of those pupils, but because the finance we have, the school has that power, it was quite easy for us to say right, this is the need, we can put additional staff to meet that need directly or immediately at the beginning of the year, and the effect can be seen quite quickly in weeks or months with that specific group. Leadership and accountability, someone touched on this a little bit earlier, so what we're establishing in a scholar be it all is that the Alenco is a full member of the leadership team, she has leadership responsibilities across the school and she receives financial renumeration, there's a cardi or an Alenco allowance that's linked to that. Something else we've developed in the school that every member of staff is an ALN teacher, whether they be a class teacher, support staff, everyone has a responsibility for learning needs and Gail as the Alenco has the responsibility that that accountability is in place. Then as a school we moved on to establish a universal provision, looking at our school, looking at our staff, looking at our provision to see what's available to every pupil in the school, and from that menu, when we go back to consider the one page plus profiles, we can then ensure that what we put in place in terms of targets is something that we are able to introduce as a school. So by creating that menu, we looked at our needs as a school, autism was a big need in the school, dyslexia, developing early language skills was a problem, and then ensuring that we have robust programmes to meet those needs. Staff development, that's been a journey over the past two, three years. Again historically in schools there was a mindset that the Alenco would have to deal with the ALN pupils, but a change in staff mindset so that every teacher is now an ALN teacher. So what we had to provide a professional learning programme and a robust one for our staff to do that. So parental engagement, as I mentioned, this new process has really undertaken that. By creating an individual development, parents are part of the PCP meetings, they are part of creating those targets and outcomes, they are part of writing the description with the school, where historically that would have been undertaken by a panel, by officers from the county without parents being part of those meetings. So that will strengthen parents now understand their children's needs and understand their role in developing the pupils as learning partners. The school processes, I've already mentioned that, that triangle that we use as a school, and then the pedagogy. As mentioned, every teacher is an ALN teacher and that goes down to the teaching on the classroom level. Every teacher in the scholar beidol now consider their provision on the classroom. What can I offer these pupils? Who are the groups that I have? What are the needs in the classroom and how can we plan for those needs? That's now a fundamental part of the role and job description of every teacher in the school. At this point, we've established Kanalvana Beidol, which is an artistic centre. It's two classes, eight pupils in each class, which is funded centrally as a specialist centre. But by setting a specialist centre in a mainstream school, we've seen a positive impact that that has had on our school, our mainstream castles. The expertise in that centre then filters into the mainstream. So we have the expertise in the school to support those pupils. In the same manner, the pupils who are part of a Kanalvana Beidol do come into the mainstream for maths lessons, for example, to use our resources. So those links, that flexibility between the centre and the mainstream is key. And I think that's a very good model to meet the needs of ALN pupils. But like any system, there are challenges, and these are the challenges that we currently face in our schools. And I'm sure that Ellen and Tom will mention the same challenges in a moment. The need is increasing. There are more and more pupils coming into our schools with additional learning needs. When I began as a head teacher in 2007, not that long ago, we may have one pupil a year coming in with needs. We are now having one, two, three a term who are starting with us, who have those needs, where we have to meet those needs as early as possible. When I mention pupils beginning with us at age two, that's the strength of the system with Flying Start and the Kilkmyth rain on the school site. We can identify those needs in good time, so that we can plan a year or two ahead, so that we have that provision to meet the needs of those pupils in a timely fashion. Recruitment is a challenge, because especially in a Welsh medium school, we are finding it a challenge to recruit staff who have expertise in ALN, who are Welsh speaking, but who are willing to work at a level one teaching system, where the pay is that much less. So we are dependent on our staff and people who live locally to fill those gaps. And that can be a challenge. We've just been in the process of recruitment for level three staff recently. What was really interesting when we advertised that as a part time post, we had a handful of playing. We then decided, as a school, that we turn that post into a permanent post, more than a year. Then we had 21 applying. And of those 21, six teachers applied for the level three post, and we've now appointed. So there are questions then in terms of funding and the sorts of agreements or contracts that we can provide. Resources is a challenge. Again, coming back to language medium, the Welsh medium resources available to schools is far less compared to the English medium resources, and our staff have to spend quite a lot of time translating resources. So that's a challenge when we consider workload. Consistency is a challenge in terms of consistency between school systems. As the ALN transformation gives more flexibility to schools, what we've come across, and something that we've identified in a Scholar Biddle as a whole school provision or an additional provision, perhaps another school, whether that be secondary school that they are moving in or moving from another county, perhaps the same definition of that additional learning load or a whole school is not the same in every school and in every county across Wales. And parents quite often say that the offer that they have in a Scholar Biddle may not be available in another school or possibly better in another school, or that perception in terms of parents and consistency is a challenge. And the other challenge that I put on there is finance. Finance is challenging for every school, but especially as we consider finance specifically for ALN. I've got figures here just for interest. I won't go through them in detail, but that top line, I think, is the important one, the general teaching provision. It's been devolved now to schools in Camarthenshire, so we receive that finance. In 2023/24 it was 80,000, for us the school is increased now to 99, which is a good sum in order to meet the needs in our school. But just for information, in that top corner, the L3 costs 23,000, the level 1, 19,000. And in terms of the time of the leaders to do the L-ENCO work, it's around 220-day supply costs to undertake that. So in the school, this is our ALN provision that I fund from that budget. So our nurture provision with L3, 23,000. I have three TA support and three level 1 support, which comes to 149,000. So you can see that the money that comes specifically for ALN does not meet the need in this school. So that difference then comes from the main budget that we have as a school in order to meet the needs of our pupils, as well as grants that we receive, etc. So financing and budgeting for ALN, especially as it's increasing, is a challenge that schools have to face. And then future considerations, if we consider three or four points in terms of the future, and this is where I see a scholar bid on moving to, and this is where this area needs to move to. There has to be a whole cluster mindset. We've begun on the work of having cluster meetings for LENCOs. We have a strength in the Amun Valley cluster. But what we need to move on and what schools need to move away from is to see the child as the scholar Baydol child. That's not true. The child is the Camarthenshire pupil. It's not the responsibility on us as a primary school or the Kilk Mythrin or Flying Start nor the secondary school. It's the responsibility of the whole system to meet the needs of that pupil, that mindset of working as one system rather than just as a primary school, secondary school, etc. And then the support staff recognition. Our support staff in the scholar Baydol work extremely hard. I'm most fortunate with the caliber of the staff that I have in the school. The salary that those staff, we need to look at it because we're finding it difficult to attract those members of staff. It's a very low salary and it's something that needs to be considered. As I mentioned, the education continuum, that it's moving from two to 18 in one smooth system rather than moving from one school to another. And then the last point to their time. The transformation ALN has begun for a number of years, but it needs time to work. It needs time to develop. And something, as I mentioned at the beginning, we are on a journey. We will never reach the end of that journey, but we need time to travel along that journey. As an authority and as the government, there's time, we need time to develop what is being required of us. And before I finish, before Ellen comes forward to mention a sculpennial, I've got an invitation. I've mentioned what goes on in our school, but in order for you to experience what we do and how it works at a classroom level, then you are most welcome to visit a scholar bid or to see it in progress. So thank you. I think the intention is now for the three of us to give our presentations and then to receive questions. Good morning and thank you for the welcome. I'm Ellen Powell. I'm the head of a sculpennial. I've been ahead there for six and a half years. I may add to the same messages that you've heard from Gethin, but when I mentioned our journey from SCN to ALN, I will focus more on the good practices that have been recognised by us in a sculpennial, and I'll mention some of the challenges that we face. For those of you who are not aware of sculpennial, we're a community school that serves Peniel, Bronwe, Thridar, Gei and Pontarsijs. Currently we have 123 pupils, very few on the ALN register, six children. And since January, no one receives FSM, so we are a very privileged school. The majority of the children come from homes where at least one parent speaks Welsh. Our attendance is exceptionally good, at 95.05%. Currently because of numbers, we have five classes, combination and individual years as well. We've also just been through an SDIN inspection last term. Inclusion is extremely important to us in Peniel. It's a fundamental part of our ethos, and our values reflect this. And this was actually mentioned by SDIN, and they noted that ensuring happiness and inclusion of every pupil and staff is a fundamental part of the school ethos, and I'm extremely proud of that sentence in that report. In Peniel, we are one team, one family, and we succeed together. And I think that's something important as we consider ALN in a school. It's not a job for one person, it's there for everyone. It's everyone's responsibility. It has been a journey in order to reach where we are now. It's taken around two years for us as a school to reach the point where I'm able to say, yeah, okay, we're doing okay, we are happy with this. We are away from getting to the end of the journey, but this is what works for us. And this is what SDIN had to say, the provision for pupils with ALN is extremely organized, inclusive, and effective. The head teacher is responsible for coordinating this element to identify the pupils who would need additional learning needs. As a result, almost all of the pupils are making progress, which is at least good. The head teacher and the teaching team are passionate about protecting the well-being of children to ensure that they're in a good place to be able to learn. Unless the children's well-being, unless they are happy, then they will not prosper. They have a thorough recognition of the needs of every pupil, and they're able to personalize the provision. It's that personalization which I think is important. So how did we reach this point? Back I go now to September 2022. At that time, I returned to school after a maternity period. We had to restructure the senior leadership team because of staffing, and as a result of that, I adopted the role of being the LNGO. I remember going home and thinking, oh goodness me, what have I done? The first thing I did was to self-evaluate the current ALN in the school, asking these three simple questions. What was working well? What was in progress, and what could be better? What could be improved? And these are the main findings. The interventions that had been personalized happened from a very early age in the school, and the majority of the children were making progress. However, the basis of all of those interventions were professional conversations. There was no co-data. The children who had statements did receive the support that they needed. However, staff were very quick to ask for intervention beyond the class before making reasonable adjustments on the classroom floor. And that's where the biggest change has happened in Peniel, and I'll mention that in a moment. Also as a school, we needed to ensure that we had a more transparent picture, ensuring accountability. We needed to track progress. We needed to track these children. And in order to undertake this, we needed to change mindset, the mindset of everyone in the school. So from September 2022, a strong focus was placed on ALN during HMS and also in toilet sessions. As a school, we've done a lot of work on the general teaching and what is that additional learning provision. Changing that mindset has been key to our success. We spent a great deal of time upskilling staff by sharing various strategies and developing an understanding about the needs of individuals and how to meet the needs on the classroom floor. And I remember telling one member of staff, Don't worry if a child is standing there with a clipboard. And the response of the member of staff was, Oh, is someone coming in? And my response was, Does it matter if a child is standing when they do their work or if they're sitting and they're losing interest in the lesson? So those messages, I think, needed to be filtered into the staff. We used internal expertise. I have an exceptionally good teaching assistant on ALN, and we used her expertise to upskill members of staff. And we had lots of discussions, lots of presentations, and we went through processes consistently, repeating messages, and as a result, gradually, we saw staff gaining in confidence. We saw a shift in their mindset. And here we have a message that which was repeated consistently and displayed everywhere. They're still up there in order to remind people, fairness does not mean the same to every child. It means giving every child what they need, equity and fairness, unless we give that to our children, then we're in the wrong job. So what's working well for us now in Peniel? The communication is robust, communication with staff, parents, the open door policy that we have, and also with these ALN pupils, the communication is there on a regular basis. I hold fortnightly meetings with my ALN, a teaching assistant. We share messages. We've mapped the provision in the teaching centre that gives us a picture of what's happening, and we can track what the learners are doing and the progress that they make. The method and the whole school attitude towards ALN is good. I'm proud of the staff attitudes towards their responsibilities and what we do. We are flexible and open. That's the best thing that this bill has given us, the flexibility for schools to do this work. The ownership of the provision. We don't pass it on. It's not passed the book. We are the ones who are responsible. We have very positive feedback from parents about our PCP meetings, and we have termly progress meetings. Our one-page profiles are differentiated, and those small adjustments have a big impact on the general learning or teaching provision. I will now focus on some of the things that work well for us in P&L and which have been recognised as good practices. One element, as mentioned, as we look at the provision, and as we looked at it two years ago, there were no tracking and progress assessment arrangements, especially for the ALN pupils. So we now have those, and we have those diagnostic processes in place, and they are used when we discuss progress, not just the ALN pupils, but everyone. At the beginning of every academic year, we have tests, standardised tests, NFER, maths, and also literacy. We have the spelling and the single word spelling tests. At the beginning of every educational year, in the first six weeks, pupils, 7 to 11 complete well-being questionnaires. We want to see these children's mindset at the beginning of the educational year. And then on a termly, we track attendance, and we also assess the trick-or-click progress in every pupil. All of those in the foundation are also assessed according to chart. From doing the standardised test and feeding that into a – we can also then discuss those, and we have those progress meetings as members of staff. These are held at the beginning of every term. They are professional conversations that encompass everything. They are open discussions that discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly. They are opportunities for staff to have their say. However, there's a clear focus in these meetings, and expectations have been clearly set to staff. They have to take ownership of them. They cannot go – they cannot come into these meetings blind. They have to have evidence which will show the children's progress or the further support that they need, because the children are not making the expected progress. And I ask these types of questions – what's working well? What needs to be improved? What are the challenges? Which pupils have closed the gap, who haven't closed the gap? What are the possible reasons? Have some slipped back? Why? But also it's important to ask staff, do you need specific training? Do you need specific support or additional support in order for you to be able to progress? It's important to have their voice and to hear that voice. So the meetings themselves, we try and keep them to less than an hour during the school day. That's important. Meetings can be heavy, and staff wellbeing is important. We open the meetings discussing what works well, what needs to be improved, and any specific challenges. This question allows us to open the discussion up around the general teaching and the pedagogy, such as teaching the use of technology and the resilience, attendance, and the independence of our learners. We then discuss the wellbeing of individuals and any interventions or programmes – Elsa talk about detectives – anything that focuses on wellbeing. The next point of discussion is how many learners are making progress. This is where we focus on those individuals who are making progress or less progress, and also the more able and talented learners as well, because we have to remember when we consider additional learning needs, we have to consider the more able and talented pupils as well. So as we discuss the individuals, the most important tool is the four plus one tool. We use what's in progress, what has worked, and what we are proud of, and what we wish to continue with. That is which strategies have worked. It's fine to trial strategies and that they don't work, but how can we learn if we don't trial things? Before we discuss what needs to be done next, what are we concerned about, are there need for further adjustments within the teaching? Is there a need to do further, more diagnostic? Do we need specific intervention? Do we need to go a step further? Or is there enough evidence in order to hold a PCP meeting? Within a year, if we feel that there's enough evidence, then we call for a PCP meeting with parents. So during the discussions, and as we consider whether we need to have standardised diagnostic assessments, what we need, we want a line of inquiry. What exactly can we put a finger on what's needed? And also, as we hold these diagnostic testing, it allows us to have smart targets, specific targets for specific learners, those who may not be on the ALN register, but who need that boost and need that intervention. And as we discuss the more able and talented pupils, we discuss what they're most strongest in, which reasonable adjustments are needed in order to allow for those individuals to reach their full potential. Do we, as a provision, do we allow them to reach the place where they deserve to reach? Is there a need to do anything further, and is there any good practice that can be shared with others? It's important if we are doing something well, then we need to share that, because every school are doing good work, and then we need to share that work. Following those progress meetings, we then encompass everything. Something which is important when we encompass all of that is that we take that mindset that this is an alive or an active document, not something which is done and then just placed on a shelf. And to the point of that, the children will not benefit, the staff will not get the best out of the children. In September, when we have those one-page profiles for classes, we look at the provision in the class. Once we've done those one-page profiles for the various classes, then we create personalised one-page profiles, which is based on the needs of the learners, and every learner is part of those discussions. The one-page profiles are differentiated. If a child is achieving according to expected, they have a short profile, a mini-page. If they don't need to have any reasonable adjustments, then what benefit is it to put that in their profile? Those profiles are far more personalised to them. Then we have one-page profiles, which have notes on what is needed in terms of reasonable adjustments on the classroom, and then one-page profile plus for children who receive intervention and receive additional support. These profiles are reviewed every term. We will include the pupil voice and our ALN is also part of that. What is essential is that we triangulate everything in order to have a transparent and honest snapshot. After triangulating all of the information that we have, then we then create and review and adapt and adjust our one-page profile. It's been an exceptional tool, especially with changes in staffing. It's an A4 sheet which is accessible to every member of staff. It includes statistics about classes, the children who are on the register with brief needs, and it also refers to the MAT children, and also notes the children who are causing a challenge in terms of wellbeing or behaviour, or any child who has a risk assessment. And also, they have full access then to one-page profiles. This file is in every class. As mentioned, these progress meetings have had a positive effect on our provision and what we do in the school happen at the beginning of every term. So what happens during that interim period? Children's wellbeing and children who are causing concern are discussed in every staff meeting, and staff have access to those records. If something is beginning to come to light, then we would ask staff to complete a concern sheet that allows us to track the child, and we ask the following questions. Have you made any adjustments for this child? Have you tried to do anything to support that individual? What do you, as staff, believe is the next step in this child's journey? And we then refer to those concern sheets in those meetings to see whether any progress is made. I've discussed what's happened well. It's been a journey to get to where we are now. It's been identified as good practice by external agencies, and we're very proud of what we've achieved. But of course, there are challenges. The journey hasn't been without its challenges, and I'm sure that we will have a number of challenges for years to come. Firstly, I know that this is an old story, but the side effects of COVID, we are still living in its shadow. There are more and more social needs. There are more and more demand for ELSA support at all different levels. The reading skills have deteriorated. Parent and children's attitudes towards reading in general has changed. Standards in general are lower as a result of COVID, and the word which is highlighted is anxiety. Children or pupils or the number of pupils who use the word anxiety is far, far higher. Time. As a headteacher, I'm also the head of another two schools, and I am also the alenko for a school. Sometimes I don't know whether I'm going or where I am. I'm spinning all of those plates. Preparation time for those meetings, for those PCP meetings, I need time as a headteacher to undertake that role. I need time to create ICPs. Preparation time, planning time, monitoring time, et cetera, et cetera. Sometimes there isn't enough time in the day. Finance. Geffen has gone into more detail on finance compared to me. But for any child who has an IDP, then you have to provide support for them. The budget does not match the needed support. So finance is a concern, and it is putting pressure on schools and putting pressure on us as leaders. Parents wanting the label, and I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of term. But the ADHD is using more and more often now by parents. They want that label, and quite often we in our schools are not seeing what the parents are seeing. And the first response of GPs is go to the school. They will refer you. One message, which I give quite clearly to parents, is that we have to see trends in more than one area before we are able to refer. We give them the forms. We ask them to fill them in. Again repeating that message, the school may not see the same things as you see. It's now becoming easier to have a private diagnosis. Parents bring that private diagnosis. But even though if they found that, it still has to be checked by the health board. And once they come, then it can bring additional challenges. And then the difference between England and Wales, and Google. Google, I think we need to change the mindset of parents. It has progressed, but Google can be a bit of a headache for us as ALN, or as ALN goes. Google says, and you know when they say that, right, okay. So as a headteacher, and as the ALN go, there are a number of plates that you have to spin in a school. We have to ensure equity and fairness for every individual. That's their right. That's what they deserve. In Peniel, inclusion is important to us. We are one team, we are one family, and we succeed together. As a school, we continue to be on a journey. The journey will never end. Thank you. Hi, I'm Tom Eerie, and I am a Welsh learner, but I'm not yet fluent enough, so I will present now in English. As Eleanor and Rebecca said, I was the ALN Co. in St. John Lloyd, and I've now taken its employment within the local authority. To give a little background on St. John Lloyd, it's your smallest secondary school in Camarthenshire, with a quarter of the school on free school meals. Currently under the CEN code, 24% of the school were SCN, and the ALN code, 6% are identified as having additional learning needs, and that's an important figure to come back to. There's also a high level of English as additional language within the school, 22% of the school where English is not their first language or where English is an additional language to them. Like your other secondary schools, it's a faith school, and therefore, our catchment area is the whole of Camarthenshire. We have two main feeder schools, St. Mary's Camarthen and St. Mary's Linnetley, but they were taking children from over 33 other schools, children would travel from Camarthen, Swansea, to come to St. John Lloyd, which poses another significant challenge which we'll look at later. You all know that St. John Lloyd, to quote the phrase, has been on a journey for a long period of time. We were inspected in 2022, which didn't go as well as we thought it would go, and then re-inspected in 2023, however, on both occasions, additional learning needs came out as a strength of the school, and I take pride in the fact that the second statement from 2023 says nearly all teachers, Esten loved to quantify every single sentence with majority, nearly all in few, and you sit there going, What's 'nearly all' and it's 90% and above, why can't you say '90% of teachers' or something like that or all the teachers, please, that would be nicer, but nearly all the teachers knew the pupils' individual needs well. That means I was doing my job right. There's not a lot of space here for me. So we changed. I took on a position in 2019, a colleague over there appointed me, and the first thing I did in 2019 was audit where the school was before I can even look at where we need to go to on our journey to make ALN succeed within the school, and the first thing that we did was change everyone's perception that ALN is everybody's business within the school, and it's got to be a whole school approach. We can identify needs early, that's really important. We can put support in, fantastic, but unless I've got all the teachers singing from the song page, it's going to break down at some stage. So we changed our teaching and learning within the school to incorporate all learners' needs as we can and making sure that our ALP, those teachers who are pupils with additional support, with that support has been used effectively. It's really hard going third because I've had to delete lots of sentences that other colleagues have said. In St. John Lloyd's, I sat on the SLT, which meant that I could have a strategic overview of what was happening in the whole school, and that is vital, and not all schools are in that case where the Alenco understands what's going on as a whole school policy but is also able to significantly affect what is going on in the whole school and it's important. We have completed our transfer, touch wood, to the ALN bill and that's where our numbers changed from 26% CEN to 6% ALN. That doesn't mean the need has gone away, and I'll discuss that later on when we look at challenges. It just means who is identified as requiring additional learning provision within the school, and that's an important thing to look at. PCPU tools now, our pupil-centred approach, has become embedded within the school. All meetings are conducted in a PCP manner similar to what we've heard from our primary school feeders. We look at what's working well, what could be improved. The pupil is now at the centre. In the previous CEN system, statements were created as an admin task, you know. We would send in the information about the child, they were a more clinical basis. You would read that the child had a diagnosis of autism and therefore had these traits. Someone who didn't know the child created the plan. Now the alencos within the school who have identified the learning need, identified what needs to be put in place, write that plan so they know the child. They are able to write it that reflects that child's needs. And as my colleagues have said, it's fluid. The plan by the end of a child leaving St John Lloyd's is that they are independent. Because when they're 18 or 19 and they're in their world of work, whatever it be, or when they're 30 and they're a hard consultant, they're not going to have a TA stood next to them saying now pick up the scalpel. We need to make them independent. So that means that fluidity with the ALN system means we can work on that to reduce support because we make them independent. There was a need to identify tracking and monitoring and identification and need. Similar to Iberdol, year seven in St John Lloyd's were assessed the moment they come in, single word reading, cognitive ability, reading comprehension, maths. From that we're able to identify if there is a literacy need, a numeracy need, what is that literacy need. We're able to put the appropriate support in as was mentioned in the beginning, giving pupils the support to fully meet their potential as effective and as early as we can. Early identification of need is imperative. But that doesn't mean that Jane gets identified as needing literacy support, we put that support in, they stay there until the end of their life in the school. We review it, we assess it, is that intervention, is that support working, what do we need to do, is it appropriate support, can we change it, brilliant, she's made progress, right. We don't need that support anymore but that child is also monitored then so we know they're not moving backwards, they still maintain their progress. And it's not just the support, we tend to think additional learning needs, intervention, going out to class, it's that back to the first one, ALN is everybody's business, it's making sure that the teaching within the classroom is effective to meet the needs of all children through effective one page profiles so teachers know the need and how best to support them. Through effective sharing of information. You know all pupils receive targeted support within a school, that's why parents, and you might have seen with your own children, have the target grades and the report sheets but it's making sure that if that child needs a little bit extra, needs to use assistive technology, that the support is put in place. And that comes from sharing the information with staff. For years, in certain schools, a statement would go in a folder which would go on a shelf, can blow the dust off once a year, let's review the statement. And it's changing now that ethos of ALN being everybody's business and making sure that staff are aware. So in St. Joanne Lloyd's, we use a tool called Educate Class Charts so all plans are accessible by every member of staff. Everybody understands the need of that child. Everybody is able to understand how best to support the child. We've been on a, I'm going to use that, a big journey in St. John Lloyd to develop our teaching and learning. It was a recommendation of Estyn. So it was good to give everybody a little fresh on how to improve the pedagogy and practice within the classroom. The teacher is a leader, yet we need to develop independence within the children's learning. So we were able to do that with support from the local authority on how to improve our teaching and learning. My role within the school was working with the teachers that were identified as needing a little bit of help with understanding certain needs of a child, providing whole school training on differentiation. I prefer to call it challenge and support because we like to challenge all learners. And how to use PCP tools like the floor plus one. What could be better, what's working well, et cetera. And working collaboratively with all stakeholders within the school, parent, pupil, school, but not only that, schools within the community, cluster, St. John Lloyd, as I said, 33 different schools we were working with at some stages because you'd have one child be coming from one school and it might be a child that needs ALM. You've heard about autism, the increased demand with ASD/ADHD referrals. St. John Lloyd was the first secondary school to complete the ASD-friendly awareness scheme. So they were able to support at an early age and that was changing the mindset of teachers as well on how to support children with an emerging need of ASD as well as those identified with ASD. The IDP process is really effective. It's developing. We're all learning how to create effective outcomes, how to write the support, and it's changing that mindset within schools that this pupil is the important person here, not the document, but we need to get the document to share the support with that child. And then we've had what's been phenomenal is the support that we've had from the local authority to help us improve our delivery of the ALM bill. It was a big change. For a long time the Senco, you know, I used to hate the saying from staff, Oh, he's one of yours. And you'd get it all the time, See that one over there? He's one of yours. Send him down. But it's that invaluable support on how to manage in our system that is more school-based to make sure that we put in what we need. What's really worked well is that we now got this development of cluster work within it. If I've got something that was working well, I'm able to share it with the primary feeders, I'm able to share it with secondary schools, and vice versa. In my new role within the authority, I've learned stuff going to different schools, which is an opportunity that I didn't really have the time to do going around schools and sharing, but the cluster meant that other secondary schools, other schools could share their good practice to develop how I could support children within St. John Lloyd's. So those are the things that are working well. I banded around some data, 24% to 6%, so nationally the Sen numbers in Wales have reduced by 42,000. The majority of these children that were on the Sen register were School Action, School Action Plus students. It was the TEER system. Now I, like my feeder schools here, have the same sort of process in St. John Lloyd's. We've got rid of a TEER system, they're either ALN or non-ALN, but I needed a system to monitor. So we had our one-page profiles, slightly different than a one-page profile, plus we'd have our support sequence in and then we'd have our IDP, so a TEER system to monitor those children that we know have an emerging need. However, those 42,525 pupils nationally or 20% nearly in St. John Lloyd's have not gone away. The need is still there and that has been exacerbated as we've heard from COVID. We can keep going on about it, but it has had an impact that we've had to support within schools. That support has been very important to give you that impact. When we returned to school after first lockdown, we did our usual assessments. One-third of the year group had a standardized score below 70 for reading. That means average reading age of six years old on return from COVID. With the target support and interventions we put in place, we reduced that gap by the end of the year and we were looking at 8% of the year group within that band age range. But that was the impact that was affecting the learning, literacy, numeracy. However, the other side of it that we're still feeling in school is the social impact, the social development of children. We still have anxieties around school-based anxieties that is continuing to affect it. We still have, coming into school, this is specific literacy and numeracy issues. They have lessened, they're not as bad as in 2020 and 2021. But we've got an increased social development and behavior concerns within secondary schools and I feel it's probably similar within the primary phase. Doctors now no longer do referrals to neurodevelopmental teams. So whenever a parent goes to a doctor to say, I think my child might have ADHD or autism, it comes straight back to the school. That does have an impact on workload and time within the school. I was lucky in St. John Lloyd's. I was a teacher in Alenco but they understood that I needed the time to do my ALN job. When referrals are now coming into secondary schools, I've been supporting another secondary school and they've had 100 requests this year for referrals for ASD and ADHD pathways. It takes a minimum of 40 minutes, I think is the quickest I've ever managed to fill in a referral form. That's excluding the meeting that goes with it, the gathering of information, the PCP meeting that we hold and the tools we follow. So that has a big impact and there are not enough hours in the school day. So inevitably the work comes home in our Tesco bags for life. That's not including our usual meetings, our annual reviews, our PCP meetings when we've got an emerging need, creation of an IDP, those go in addition to time is an issue. Consistency is an issue. My colleagues have mentioned it. We in St. John Lloyd's are 11-16 school, our ALP, our additional provision and our ULP, our universal provision is different to what happens in the college. That causes problems because parents who want support from their child have struggled to understand the support that's offered in the college and it works the other way as well. What's offered as ALP in the primary school sometimes is ULP in a secondary school. So the first meeting that you have with a parent is they don't need an IDP anymore because that's covered by ULP in the school and that can cause issues. So I used to say to parents we will review the IDP within the first term once I get to know the pupil's needs, so the IDP stands and it's making sure of that. Staffing -- I did some papers like yours because I wanted to work it out. It's really difficult to employ TAs. I know I've put adverts out three and four times and you might get one, you might get five applicants. Most of the TAs that are advertised on level one pay, which it looks nice at 23,000 pound, pro rata, but when you work that out at 13,000 pound a year take home salary and those people can get more money in Tesco or working in the care service, it does affect getting quality staff that we need to support our more challenging learners within the school. However, how can as a school we fund a pay increase when we're dealing with budget deficits and we're dealing with a shortage in funding, which is a national thing. You've had three teachers from three different schools say the same thing, that that is a challenge, and if we are taking that funding from another part, how much robbing of Peter to pay Paul can we do? The other issue that can cause concerns, and it's ongoing and I know as a local authority we're working with them, is dealing with outside agencies who might not be on the same part of the journey we are on, or on the same page in the 300 and some odd page ALN code of practice, who will interpret things differently. I used to get quite angry when I'd have a letter from health saying the child required an IDP because they now have a diagnosis. We are not a diagnosis led system. This is a needs led system, so although a child might have a diagnosis of ADHD or ASD, they don't need an additional provision to access education, they don't require an IDP, and it's getting that understanding to parents. It scares me when I hear parents paying £1600 for a private diagnosis of ASD because of the waiting list. Five years, I think I've yet banded around, is the waiting list, so if I put a referral in for a child in year seven, they might be seen by the time they leave school. So that's where the new system of needs led, not diagnosis led, is vital, because we can put the support in, I don't need a piece of paper to say that Jane struggles in busy environments and we need to support her in this way, because I know that child. And those are some of our challenges, and understanding that some outside agencies might see a need that is not represented in school, and we have to deal with that individual that we see and how they present in school. I think, because I was deleting things as I went through, as other colleagues are saying, which messed my flow up, but that brings me to why we've been in St. John Lloyd's, and I hope that the new Elenco carries my mantle on that we're an inclusive school that's there to support the needs of all learners, including those with an additional learning need. Thank you to the three of you for your presentations. I think we've been educated this morning in the way this is being delivered in school, and it's obvious about the expectations that we place on classroom teachers to deliver this within the various school setting. So can I move on to questions, comments, please, from members? Kim. Thank you, thank you for your presentation, it's been most enlightening. I think perhaps at one stage during our term, then having sight of an IDP that's been filled in would be useful for us to understand and have a little bit more awareness of where it is. Can you take the parental expectation of where the bar is for an IDP? Excuse me, can I interrupt? I'm so sorry, there's been an interruption with the webcast. I'm sorry to interrupt you, the procedure is that we suspend for a three or four minute comfort break, if that's okay, until the webcast is back up and running. I'm so sorry to interrupt, but we need to get that back before we continue. So -- Thank you, and welcome back to the meeting, and apologies for that delay, there was a technical problem. It's now been solved. Councillor Kim Broome. I'm not entirely sure where I got cut off, but I'll try and remember what I was saying. Councillor Kim Broome, and thank you for your presentation, it was most enlightening. I think we've all learnt quite a bit about how the schools are embedding and implementing the ALN policy, and that it gives a lot of insight. So I think I was asking about being able for us in another meeting in the future to have a template of an IDP that's been completed, so that we can understand the process. I also think that parents need to be aware that the provision is being provided without an IDP being in place, that the work and the support is there, you know, going forward. Yeah, and so I also welcome at the start of the meeting, there was talk about a review into the paying conditions for LN codes, I think that's so important. I also would hope that that would take into account the TAs that are working in the field as well, because that -- and the funding following that review would make a huge difference to the provision, because it is quite challenging environment at the moment, we all understand that within education. My query -- if I just go through, because I'm going to have to leave shortly -- so my query would be about how we ensure consistency across Camardonshire on the school's approach to the IDP process, and the timeframes, the length of time it can take for the IDP to be in place, because that is providing additional support to the children that are absolutely at the top end of the need, and the concern would be from parents is to sort of -- is it a budgetary pressure that it's not being provided, you know, that we're not providing it, and I don't think that is the case, but, you know, it needs to be out there. You mentioned about the five-year wait for ASD and autism assessments, and I think that is far too long, really. You know, if you're talking about a child, by the time that they -- the parent gets to that stage, they could actually be, you know, three-quarters of the way through secondary school, you know, and, yeah, I just find that we need to be querying that as to why it's taking so long to get these assessments, where I take from you that it's not a requirement to be able to do the IDP, which is really important that that support is there. So the other point that I'm making is confidence over the transition to secondary education and to ensure that the information is passed to the secondary school, unutilized, so that the child is -- feels less overwhelmed with the change, because it is a significant change. It's a significant change for all children, but for those with ALN, it's really -- it's really a major change. And it would be interesting for us to understand within scrutiny and within command and share how many children actually drop out of mainstream education to be taught at home, because their parents, you know, lack the confidence that the provision isn't available, or the children just can't cope in mainstream education, and to understand the reasoning behind that, so thank you. Thank you, I'm not sure how many questions were included in that comment, but -- So for any child in Peniel who has an IDP or has a one-page Profile Plus, we start communication while they're in year five with the feeder schools. So communication is there at an early stage. They're involved in the PCP meetings and drawing the IDP outcomes, especially when they're in year six. We offer additional ELSA support for learners that focuses on transition with our emotional literacy sessions. We also, from urban and QE, offer additional transition days for those children who need it. Can I address the question around consistency? As a department, we have over, as you can imagine, the run-up to transformation during the past three years, written a number of good practice guidance for our schools that are shared so that they understand the support sequence and then going on to the decision-making process. So we're hoping that there is consistency across procedure, but we've also created documents around what schools should be offering for each area of need in terms of universal provision or universal provision and then what we would then see as what is over and above that universal provision, what is ALP. So all those documents are accessible and indeed accessed by our schools. In addition, of course, we've had training. We've got an ongoing CPD program. We've got our advisory teachers who meet with every school to provide a support visit to make sure that they have a consistent approach. And also through our Alenco cluster work, we have common agendas that are able to moderate and make sure that schools are running consistent delivery. In terms of timeframes, that is set out by the ALN code. Once a request from a parent or a school to trigger a process of determining whether a child has ALN, there are set frameworks, I think off the top of my head it's 12 weeks, that the school should, although there is a, you know, there is a proviso that there might be incidents that prevent that from happening, but the timeframes are very strictly in place. We have, in the local authority posts, people called designated coordinators, they support schools with the IDP system to make sure that the timeframes are adhered to and then also there are timeframes if a parent is then not happy with the decision that's being made, then we are passed that information to reconsider and again then there are timeframes. In terms of the ASD five-year wait, of course that concerns all of us. ASD is a health diagnosis and, you know, it's just the numbers that they have to process. We work closely with them looking at ways that we can try and support them to speed up those, you know, that is something that concerns all of us. TAs and their pay are not, maybe Gareth can talk about that afterwards. The only other thing is we have developed within the wide education department transition protocols for transition across phases, so inter-school at an early years level, from primary, inter-secondary, secondary, inter-post 16, we have an enhanced ALN transition protocol, so obviously the information on pupils who have more, who have ALN is more important and to be transferred across the stages, we support schools with making sure that they can provide, can share that information, we have got an information sharing protocol that allows the information that we hold at each stage can be transferred seamlessly across. Yes, if I can update you on the matter around salaries and conditions of work of our TAs. There's a national group that have been working on this for over 18 months actually, with officers from local authorities, Welsh government and unions looking at conditions of work of our TAs and also pay levels. There is a recommendation from that group that we should revoke level 1 completely, that is that we only employ people at level 2, because when you look at what these staff have to undertake, it's probably closer to the requirements of level 2, but of course there are financial implications and significant implications in terms of changing policy. That will be a full council decision to be made and I know that HR department are currently looking at this, but we'll have to model the impact on the budget. As a principal, I think it's the right thing to do, but in terms of the financial side of things, it's something that we will have to discuss extensively and we'll have to ensure that there's fair funding for schools, which will then follow such a decision, but that's something which will have to be debated by full council. In terms of pupils choosing home tuition, we ask those parents to give us a reason why they've chosen that. They don't have to. Sometimes there is support provided for educational needs, but it's not a matter that's at the top of that list of reasons. But it is something that we need to keep an eye on to see if there are any trends. The trends of children who choose to have home tuition across Wales has increased significantly. There was a round robin on a group of directors yesterday asking about the progress. There are a number of councils or authorities that have seen an increase in the number of those who are being home tuitioned and that is a concern and I know that you as a committee have looked at this on a number of occasions. Thank you. Moving on, because we've had a break and just to remind us all that there are another four items on the agenda, if we can try and keep questions and answers brief, but in terms of the progress and implementation on all of the detail is exceptional and we may ask for a further work group on this, so if you can try and be succinct, please. So questions have in. Thank you, Chair. I have a question and thank you for your presentations. On page 10 of the bundle, there is mention of cooperation with multi-agencies and health and there's been reference to this point in the presentations that have been made. So the question I have, quite often when there are intense or serious needs, there is a demand for social care services and education, not just what's provided within the education department but in such cases and perhaps a scholar bid or could be an example where it's a school which is on the boundary of the school, where there may be pupils coming from neighbouring authorities into the school, are there complexities in the processes in terms of the cooperation and if there are complexities, what are they? Well, if I can answer that question, the scholar bid is a perfect example, we're on the boundary. 20% of the children live outside Camarthenshire. So the complexities are the referral when you look at social services, there is also concern around funding, who's responsible for funding that provision for those pupils and also having or holding multi-agency meetings can be complicated when you depend on officers from other authorities to attend. Another element of challenge is the police element and quite often when we are dependent on things such as Operation Compass when there are incidents outside of the county, a number of our pupils live in the South Wales police force so we have to liaise with them so there are challenges. As I mentioned, 20% of our pupils live outside Camarthenshire. So the biggest challenge is that we are dealing with two processes when we deal with these services. So in terms of overcoming these problems, what are the practical things which will assist you or is there something that you'd like to see? Well, the practical things from our point of view as a school, we have to cope with two systems, so we have to understand those two systems, how we refer, how we receive support, et cetera. But what's useful is that officers from the inclusion, when we meet a challenge that we can't overcome as a school, then the authorities are very supportive in terms of overcoming those problems. Thank you. Then my second question in terms of the support that's provided by the teachers in future. Just for me to understand, is there a cap or is there a maximum hours or days of support which is available or does the support vary according to the needs of the pupils? Is there a formula or is it a need whilst there's -- or is there support whilst there's a need? Thank you. So that we come together as a team to look at the needs of the different schools and their cohorts and we attempt to deliver whatever each individual school requires. So as a rule, is there a set formula in terms of the number of hours per child or number of hours per school or number of days? Is there an allocation of time or do you leave it open-ended? It's open-ended. It's open-ended. It's needs-led. Every cluster of schools, secondary and their feeder schools, has a linked advisory teacher who is at hand. We run the same policies as schools in terms of an open door policy. We welcome communication from our length goes keeping us in the loop and in touch with what's going on in their schools. We manage our clusters through a process of agenda items that are linked to statutory requirements and urgent matters that we as a local authority have to ensure that they uphold – so coming back to the question around consistency, that's part of the monetary of consistency. And then there's part of each agenda then that is based around local need, local support as and when it is needed. So advisory teachers are involved, our generic ALN advisory teachers. We also have a small team of specialist advisory teachers and we do have a referral system for that level of support based on information that both Gethin and Ellen have shared today around their tracking systems and that comes into us as a local authority through our communication forum and officers are allocated then to those schools to support those individual children. Sorry, can I just add to that briefly. So in terms of the advisory teachers, having access to them is great. The only one that's dependent on the formula are the educational psychologists. So we have a certain amount of days annually and that can be a challenge when we have to prioritise pupils and when we have to have the input from the education. But in terms of the advisory teachers, no, that's fine. So in terms of that delay because of access to the educational psychologists, say on a scale of one to ten, how much of a problem is it in terms of contributing to the delay? I wouldn't say that it contributes to the delay because as has been mentioned, we have to look at the pupils' needs and we can put things in place to meet the needs whilst waiting for a psychologist report. We have six and a half days across the year in terms of the psychologist's time and that prioritisation has to happen in terms of your children's needs but that doesn't necessarily stop the process of putting the provision in place. Thank you. Thank you. Any other comments or questions? No? Well, thank you. I've got a whole page of comments here but thank you for your presentations. The detail about the way it's delivered within your schools has been extremely useful for us to understand the process. So thank you for that detail. If we can just have a word from each of you, what is one thing apart from money which would improve things? One word. Something that you need and want. Time I think, time. Thank you. I apologise that we are having to move on because of pressures of time and the agenda but thank you and hopefully we'll have a conversation again before long. So moving on to Item 5. Oh, sorry, we have to receive the report, I'm sorry. Would you like a workshop in this again so that we can actually get into that detail? So that we can discuss it and ask questions, yeah? So do we need to vote on that specifically or do we just need to receive the report or both? Okay, so can I ask someone please to, oh sorry, Dot, Councillor Dot Jones. Hi there, I was just wondering when you mentioned the workshop, whether we'd be able to have some perhaps a first hand from parents because I always feel with education that it's the parents that give you, you know, not disrespect to the experts that we've heard from this morning but the parents do give us a true reflection and how it impacts them. Thank you Dot, yes, I agree. So can we have a proposal please that we organise a workshop? Herr Vinn has proposed, Gina seconded and we'll organise that over the coming few months. All in agreement, please raise your hand if you're in agreement to organise a workshop. Everyone, anyone disagreeing, anyone against, any abstentions, no? So could I please have a proposal that we receive this report, please? Councillor Peter is Griffiths and a seconder, Betz and Jones, all in agreement, could you please raise your hand? Thank you. Anyone against, anyone disagreeing, any abstentions? Councillor Skinner, are you voting today? Right, okay, thank you. So we're happy to receive the report. So we move on to item 5 on the agenda. Item 5 is the modernising education programme strategy, page 13 in your pack. We have before us the draft modernising education programme strategy which aims to deliver on the authority school modernisation and reorganisation aspirations. I will now call upon Councillor Glenoch Davis, cabinet member for education and Welsh language, to present the report. Betz son, do I need to repeat my declaration of interest? So declaration of interest in item 5, my son is a head teacher in the county but I've been given dispensation from the standards committee to speak and to give written representation but not to vote. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Jones. Glenoch Davis. Thank you, Chair. Well, back in 2010, before I became a Councillor, the local authority decided that we should review the MEP on a biannual or every two years or according to need to ensure that we are consistent with the timeframe of the 21st century schools programme. That name, MEP, has officially disappeared but we still use it just as a matter of convenience. It is now called sustainable communities for learning programme. So at the moment, as you all know, we're in the middle of a review that's been happening on my request that's taking place across the county of all schools. It has to be according to the strategic plan, according for the new rolling programme. That's what we currently have in place. So consequently, a new MEP strategy has been developed. Future delivery of the MEP. It's guided by a set of strategic objectives and underpinned by the department's purpose pieces and educational principles to ensure cohesion with the eight education priorities between 2022-2025 and the education shirgar strategy for the years 22-32. The MEP strategy includes a set of viability and investment criteria to ensure an appropriate and transparent method of developing school organisation and investment proposals. We all know that a public consultation on the draft strategy was held earlier this year between the 13th of February and the 12th of March and now, as we speak, a consultation report is being prepared. And of course, you as members of the scrutiny committee have the right to propose any amendments that you would like to see in the strategy before that is discussed and agreed to by cabinet. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Davis. Very well. So we'll open it up to members. And just to emphasise what has just been said, we're looking at improvements and changes to the strategy and not just picking holes in the report, but looking at what we can contribute before this goes on to the next step. Thank you. Questions, please? Councillor Sualan. Thank you. It mentions in the report about various strategies for deciding the size of the building and so on. And I'm just very concerned that when schools are built, they run out of capacity so soon afterwards. Is there anything we can do about this in the strategy? Thank you. Thank you. A really suitable question, because I think we've had occasions where we built a new school and it attracts learners. Welsh government are quite clear when we build a new school, we have to project pupil numbers for those areas. And we've gone at risk on several schemes in the past where we've built a school larger than the numbers have kind of projected, because we know about the information of pupil population in that area. It's called Carrickhay Revine is a good example where we went at risk and built a school of 450, although there were only 100 learners in that kind of catchment area at that point in time. That school now is to capacity. The county, the cabinet agreed to go at risk in those schemes. But I think we need to be very careful around that in the sense of we need to keep to Welsh government guidelines, but where we are aware of information around the local area we do kind of try and accommodate that growth we anticipate. But sometimes Welsh government will push back saying, no, your data shows you've got 100 pupils, that's the size of school we will support. So it is that discussion and dialogue with Welsh government in those kind of cases. Can I also state, I agree completely with what Gareth has just said, and we have built larger schools than what was actually being permitted on paper. And if we hadn't succeeded in attracting those additional children, there's quite a heavy penalty for us as an authority as government, we have to pay the money back. But we have taken risks and we have succeeded. We've succeeded. We've never to date had to pay a penny back. That in which case, is it possible to design such schools as they could easily accommodate an extension, for example, because some are perfectly designed and then there's nowhere to put the portacab in. So I just wondered, can we design them with that potential? Yeah, I think we take that on board and make a note of that comment. Sometimes we're confined by the space we have on a school site, et cetera, but we would try and plan where an extension could be added should we have the space and the requirement. I think that's a good point to make. Thank you. Thank you. You are aware that we've had a visit to two schools recently and a number of questions and comments from that visit. We have a further visit to come and then we'll combine those comments based on the points because we did have a number of comments that doesn't directly to do with the strategy, but are to do with making improvements in moving forward after discussing with schools, if that's okay. Councillor Peter Hues-Griffith. Of course, much of the development relates to finance. And I noticed at the end of the capital challenges that are coming forward, especially the last paragraph, the capital funds available for building maintenance and schools is under severe pressure. Even though the plans that we have are good plans, in terms of the future, and we go through these processes and certainly what we have done has to be applauded over recent years. It is certainly a success story. So just to state that we are largely dependent on the financial situation, the support that we receive or the resources that we have ourselves to develop this plan. So just a comment. So I don't know whether you would agree with that. I only hope for the best. Well, Chair, as mentioned at the beginning, I think that the answer that I would wish to give that is a political one. So it's inappropriate during this period of time for me to say anything. So Gareth, if you'd like to say something instead. Yes, in terms of the finances, the funding that we have in terms of refurbishing schools, it is a challenge and we have to prioritize what's most important and what ensures that schools are able to reopen. There's quite a lot of work that happens over school holidays so that we don't impair with the school day, but certainly the requirements is greater than the budget. And we have been discussing corporately whether there's further funding available and if there's any spare funding anywhere else, then they're welcome to come to the Education and Children's Department because we do have a list of things that we want to do. And quite often they're quite large, such as a roof or a boiler in a school, which is a big cost, but they have to be put in place to ensure that the school is able to open. But it's always a challenge. Councillor Jean Lewis. Thank you, Chair, and thank you for the report. Interesting reading. And if I can just state in terms of buildings and improving the quality of buildings, I notice that you refer to new schools and only new schools. So that causes me some concern. But can I also refer to you to page 31, Camarthenshire Education and Educational Principles, the principles of the strategy, which give a basis to the teaching strategy for the future in our schools. Can I propose an amendment here, please? Councillor Glen Ock-Davis mentioned that we do have an opportunity today to propose an amendment. So can I do it by taking have no more than two-year groups in a teaching class? And to take that out, please. I think that does put pressure on our head teachers. It puts pressure on our staff. And also in terms of having certainty amongst parents and so that parents can be assured. So if I can just note that, please. Thank you. So that's been noted as an amendment, as a recommendation there. Councillor Heaven-Jones, page 25 in your bundle, there is mention of increasing the use of school resources for community use outside of teaching hours. And I can see that this point is in bold. So the question I have in face of the pressures on budgets, on school budgets specifically, will there be an expectation for this to happen as a way of creating income? And I think we have to consider this in a local context in our communities. There are lots of communities where there are new halls, et cetera, that have been built. Where there are local facilities, where there are larger schools in those areas. So how much emphasis will be placed on this? And so the question, will consideration be given to the individual position of each school in face of the competition that they have and the resources that they have in a number of these settings? That's in bold because I think it's one of the visions of the current cabinet. So what's in bold is part of the cabinet's vision. And they have asked us to work with our schools to ensure that that resource is available to communities. And also with some of our plans, there will have been investment because of the specific budget for the community element. There are a number of projects in progress where we will be investing in schools. Where there's a specific grant, whether it's for the school, but also for the community. A number of our schools do permit them to be used by their community. And it's one way of ensuring some additional funding. But also I think we have to be sensitive in terms of local provision. We wouldn't want a school to take business away from Village Hall and that then may not be sustainable. So it's that cooperation which is an important point here. And also not every school is appropriate for community use because of the nature of the school. So there are a number of factors. But it is something that we are discussing with schools. If they are able and if there is a need, then we do encourage that community use of schools. But then there are hidden costs. Such as caretaking, electricity, et cetera. So that has to be balanced whether it's worthwhile for schools to undertake it. Thank you. Councillor -- >> The primary educational principles that you put forward. I just wanted to ask about the current state of sustainable leadership and primary schools that currently have more than two-year groups in a teaching class. Do you have any information on how many head teachers are currently teaching in the primary sector in the county? And likewise, how many primary schools have got more than two-year groups in their teaching classes? We have that. I don't have it at hand. We do have that information available to us around the structures of our different schools. And, you know, numerous head teachers depending on school size will have a teacher commitment. Even head teachers in our larger schools decide to teach as well, which I think is good practice. I did that as a head teacher. We got that information on file. We got this analysis of every school. And, however, I would probably say that in our smaller schools, the teaching commitment of our school leaders is quite heavy. We have school leaders probably teaching four and a half days a week in some of our schools. And probably teaching four-year groups in that class as well. And we have that information we can share with you if you want, yeah. Can I call this in now? Yeah. All right. Thank you. Of course, part of this is the building of new schools, isn't it? Yeah? So, what is -- how many schools are on that list and what schools are on the list and what are they in the order on that list, please? Can I -- Sorry. I'm -- Can I interrupt? I'm sorry. The -- this item is on the strategy, which is not about a list. That comes later. So, and it is also a question I think we cannot even discuss until after the election. But the papers on the strategy, which is how we decide what the next step is. I'm sorry. I don't agree with you. Okay. Well -- I would have thought the building of new schools is a strategy and is part of the overall strategy. Yes. I'm sorry. You were asking for lists of schools. That is not -- Okay, then. So, can we have then -- so, how do we scrutinize the building of schools as a scrutiny committee then as part of the strategy? Once the strategy is agreed by cabinet, this will then inform the investment that will happen over the next nine years. There are three -- there's a three-year program being developed and will be given to the Welsh government. So, as part of any reorganization, you know, scrutiny as well as the public, there are consultations then on those proposals going forward. Once cabinet agree this strategy, I think then probably we will be able to share in more detail the schemes that are being progressed by the team on the kind of instruction of cabinet. But we're not in that position yet until this strategy and the review is complete, which will be by the end of this term. So, just one more. Is this your last education? No, I think I might be here for another one or maybe two. Okay, then. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. I've kind of forgotten what I was going to say a moment ago, but I think Gareth has sort of come in on that, and I did have another question about school building. It will come back to me. Is there a question I'll ask? Thank you. No further questions. This is how we measure. This is the framework within everything is measured against, and in terms of the next steps. So, it's important that we note any priorities or any processes or steps, and if there's anything that anyone would like to raise in respect of that. I can't see any hands up. Sue, have you remembered your question? One question I have, it's in the educational priorities that we are moving to a place where there will be no teaching head teachers, and we know that that's appropriate in the majority of cases, but possibly not in everyone, but we have to know that these principles are not rules. Yes, they are principles that we are aimed towards, and as you heard from the two head teachers earlier today, there are big responsibilities, and Elenin Peniel, she is the LNGO as well, and I also know that she has a teaching workload as well. But ideally, every head teacher should be able to lead and just lead, but the number of children in the school has to be sustainable, or that they're a system where we fund a school that a head teacher does not teach. But you have to have that consistency as well across the county, don't you, in terms of how many hours of leadership. It's a complex picture. Councillor Sue Allen and then Jean Lewis. It was about when you're planning a school and you're looking at the figures, it takes quite a long time to go through all the ecological studies, the planning permission, the architectural design and so on, by which time some years have passed, and also the consultations. You project forward five years or so in the figures, as it says in the strategy, to include it in the capacity of the school, but because that time has passed, how can you change it at the last minute again? Okay, Sarah is online, so Sarah Griffiths is the manager of this programme, I think she'll have more information, but I think there are opportunities along the way to revise our submissions to Welsh Government if there are dramatic changes to some of the evidence or intelligence we hold around the scheme, but Sarah can probably confirm. So on that, with the business case process, we have three business cases that we have to submit, the strategic outline case, the outline business case and the full business case. So at each of those points, we are able to amend the scope of the project if it's needed, and we do, because we've got the projections, the projections are fairly accurate on a five year basis, so we are able to project five years ahead and look at the numbers. We also look at people yield from potential housing developments in the local areas as well, so we do take that into consideration. You are right in saying some of these processes can take four to six years to, you know, to be able to start a project and then by the time the school is actually occupied. At relevant stages then, we do try and relook at the scope, relook at people numbers just to make sure that that brief is as accurate as it can be before we start on site. However, the projections do help us out a lot. We don't tend to see huge jumps in the projection, so that does mean that when we start a brief, it's fairly accurate then as we move forward to building on site. So the projections on the people yield from housing developments is what we look at in the main. We do try and forecast, you know, any slight changes and try to build them in some extra capacity where we can. Gareth mentioned earlier on, sometimes that's very difficult because we are bound by Welsh government and they will only give us grant for certain capacities where they can see that we can justify those, but we do reveal at regular intervals where we see, you know, if there are changes, but it's the projections we use mainly on those new builds and like I said, they're fairly accurate in that five-year projection, so we don't tend to see how much jumps where it would have an adverse effect then on the capacities that we're looking at building. Thank you, Sara. Sue or Peter? Jean? Yes, thank you, Chair. In terms of what I mentioned and what I said about the principles and then coming on to criteria and viability, the number of children in a school, it says with low pupil numbers. Could you give me a number or give me a bit more detail or is it aligned with those two years that we mentioned in terms of the principle? Thank you. Perhaps we'll make a note of that as well to give greater clarity on what we mean in terms of pupil numbers. We have to ensure that our education system reflects Camarthenshire and Camarthenshire is unique possibly in terms of other counties and if you compare with other counties that are not similar and we will always have smaller schools because of the geographical nature of the school, so perhaps we need to explain a little bit what we mean by that criteria. I have a comment, I can't see any hands up, under funding and budgeting, and I'm not going specifically after money at the moment, but contributions from section 106. And just for us to keep in mind, as all of these plans are so long-term, every time the funding comes, it's lost its value by the time it actually comes to being spent. So that also has to be considered, you know, in terms of when the figures are first agreed, they have to consider the length of construction time and that possibly the money could have in value by the time the project is delivered. Any further comments or questions? No? So can I ask someone to propose that we receive this report, please? Councillor Skinner and a seconder? Councillor Dot Jones, thank you, Dot. All in agreement? In terms of receiving the report, what does that mean? That we accept the recommendations, or do we accept the draft? Is to receive the recommendations with any comments that have been noted? With the comments that have been noted, yes? Yes, those comments will now be part of the report, which will be taken to cabinet. It will be noted and comments from scrutiny. So those will be listed, those matters that you've brought up, in terms of adapting or improving the strategy and also with the results of the consultation, yes? Very well. So everyone who's in favour, please raise your hand. Anyone against? Any abstentions? One. Thank you. And if we can move on to item number six on the agenda. And this is the Education, Young People and Welsh Language Scrutiny Committee Annual Report 2022/2023, sorry, 2023/2024. Page 53. The report has been prepared in order to comply with Article 6.2 of the Council's constitution, which states that a scrutiny committee must prepare an annual report giving account of the committee's activities over the previous year. The report provides an overview of the scrutiny committee's work during the 2020/2023/2024 municipal year. Do members have any questions on the report? And if so, could you please raise your hand now? No hands up? So we'll proceed and I'll ask someone to propose that we receive, Councillor Skinner's proposed. And a seconder, please. Councillor Betz on Jones. All in favour of receiving this report? Thank you. Anyone against? And anyone abstaining? Thank you. So that's been agreed. So moving on to Item 7 on the agenda, education, young people and the Welsh Language Scrutiny Committee forward work plan for 2024/25 on page 83 of the agenda pack. This report has been compiled following the committee's informal planning session held on the 10th of April 2024 and sets out the current work plan for 2024/25. The forward work plan is a flexible document which can be updated throughout the year as new information emerges. And we'll be convening additional informal planning sessions as and when required. Do members have any comments they would like to make on the forward work plan, please? Any questions or comments? Very well. Is somebody willing to prepare to move that the report be adopted? Councillor Skinner and a seconder, Councillor Lloyd Davies. All in agreement? Please show. Anyone against? Anyone abstaining? Thank you. So that's moved. So moving on to the next item. Any actions update, and this is on page 89 of your pack. During the course of an municipal year, several requests for additional information are made by the committee in order to assist in its discharging scrutiny role. This report provides an update on the progress made in relation to actions, requests or referrals recording during previous meetings of the committee. So these are the actions that we've asked to and have agreed on the progress. Are there any questions or comments, please, on this item? Director, there is one in the red, and apologies, I don't know why that isn't it for you, but you do have a report in the autumn on school budgets. So that information will be part of that report. But we can share with you this year's distributions, and that report is available on the council's website. So we can get that to you immediately after the meeting. But you will have that information in the next meeting in the autumn on school budgets. That information will also be included in that. Very well, thank you. Any questions or comments from anyone else? May I thank officers for actioning these decisions. All in favour of receiving this report, please. Or can I ask for a proposal? Councillor Sohalan and a seconder, please. Councillor Jean Lewis, are you all in agreement that we receive this report? Thank you. Anyone against? Anyone abstaining? Thank you. So the report is received. So item 9. To sign as a correct record the minutes of the meeting held on the 17th of May, and that they are true and a correct record of the meeting, which is on page 95, the committee is being asked to approve as a correct record the minutes of its meeting held on the 17th of May, 2024. Is anyone prepared to move that the minutes be adopted, please? Councillor Skinner and Councillor Laudoza has seconded. Are you all in agreement? Anyone disagree? Anyone abstaining? Thank you. And I think that's the last item on the agenda. Apologies for the delay with the webcasting. And I'd like to thank the officers who are still here, and also for those who have left the Chamber. And I'd like to thank you for your service this morning, and thank you for your attendance in this committee. We'll see you after the summer, I think. I wish you all a very good summer. [BLANK_AUDIO]