Transcript

(water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this meeting of the BTP licensing subcommittee. I am Councillor flag, and the first item on this morning's agenda is to sit nominations for a chair for the meeting. Members, can I nominate you for chair? Thank you, Councillor Williams. And I'd like to second that, please. Thank you, Councillor Chapman law. Item two, apologies to receive any apologies for absence. I think we're all present and correct this morning. Decorations of interest. Do members have any declarations of interest for this morning's meeting? None from me, thank you. Thank you, Councillor Williams. None here, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Chapman law. Can I ask the, can I ask the officers just to run through their housekeeping, please? Thank you, Chair. Please note that this meeting is being recorded by the Council for live broadcast and will be published on the Council's website for a minimum of six months. The meeting may also be recorded or streamed for live or subsequent broadcast by members of the public, although ultimate discretion in this matter lies with the chair in case of disruption. For those in the room, please note that if there is a fire alarm, please exit the building in the way of your nearest signed fire exit route and make your way to the assembly point at the wall memorial in the gardens opposite the front of the building in Borne Avenue. Finally, please ensure background noise is kept to a minimum and mobile phones and other devices are turned off or switched to silent for the duration of the meeting. For those in the room, this includes turning off your microphones and turning your volume down completely on your laptops. Thank you. Thank you. Item four, protocol for public speaking at licensing hearings. The protocol for public speaking at licensing subcommittee hearings is included with the agenda sheet for noting item five exclusion of press and public. In relation to the item of business appearing at item six. The subcommittee is asked to consider the following resolution at the hearing when dealing with the representation from trading standards appendix four of the report. That under section 14 to of the licensing act 2003 hearings regulations 2005 and with regard to the section 100 a four of the local government act 1972. The public be excluded from the meeting for the following item of business on the grounds that the public interest in withholding the information outweighs such interest in disclosing the information and that involves the likely disclosure of exempt information, as defined in paragraphs one, two and seven in part one of schedule 12 of the act. This will come into play after the police have made their representation. Moving on into item six, the licensing authority has received an application for a new premises license for the premises known as West over express 45 west over road, and the matter is brought to the committee for determination. The licensing authority has received two representations. So this matter is brought before the licensing subcommittee for determination. I will now now ask each participant to introduce themselves and state their role. I am Councillor David flag and chair of the member of the subcommittee. I'm Councillor Lawrence Williams and represent little down the live bed. I'm Councilor Chapman law and member of the licensing subcommittee. Thank you members. We also have with us this morning. Councillor and Foila and Councillor Judy Richardson, who are reserve members. They're not required to participate as all members are present. We also have Councillor George Farquhar, who's obviously observing the meeting this morning. Can I ask those around the table just to confirm their presence, please. Can we start with Mr Sarah Rogers? It's good morning Sarah Rogers, principal licensing officer, BCP Council. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. I'm at the Marra legal advisor to the subcommittee today. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. My name is Shayla Kallahan and I'm clapped to sell committee today. Good morning to your Holyoke democratic services support. Thank you. And just for the record, we also have Jess McLean joining us this morning. He's only joining us up until the point that we move into exact session. And he's observing on behalf of the legal services on work experience. Well, for the applicant, please. Good morning, Chair. Councillors, I'm Philip Day from Lacey Sylvesters and I'm here to represent the applicant who sits next to me. Mrs Alina Kadir. Those objecting to the application. Sergeant Gosling. Good morning, Chair. Sergeant Gareth Gosling from Torcett police. Thank you. Trading standards. Good morning, Chair and committee. My name is Katie Actridge. Trading standards officer for BCP Council. Good morning. My name is Haley Browning. I'm the principal trading standards officer for BCP Council. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. Would it be possible to identify yourself, please? Oh, thank you, pardon. I've got, I've got my short range glasses on this morning. Nice to see you, Councillor Martin. Right members, before I run through the procedure, please now check that all persons have been given notice of their intention to speak have been identified, and any person who wishes to withdraw a representation, or wishes not to speak has been identified. If there are no comments, I will take this as correct. I will now explain the proposed procedure in order of speaking for the hearing as follows. The public session during which parties have not asked not to refer to any exempt information. The licensing officer presents the report questions of the licensing officer by all parties, members of the subcommittee to go first. The applicant will make their application questions of the applicant by all parties, members of the subcommittee to go first. Dorset police make their representation questions of Dorset police by all parties members of the subcommittee to go first. We will then move into exempt session. Trading standards make their representation questions of trading standards by all parties present members of the subcommittee to go first. All parties will be given an opportunity to sum up with the party who spoke last to go first. The hearing will then conclude. The subcommittee will deliberate in private with the legal advisor and a clerk present. Notification of the subcommittee's decision will be given within the period of five working days, beginning of the day or the last day on which the hearing was held. The notification of decision will include information about the writing appeal as appropriate. I will now ask all parties to confirm agreements on the proposed procedure or make representations. Mr day. I'm content with that. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Mrs. Kadir. Yes. Yes. Sergeant Gosling. Yes, I'm cadet. Thank you. Ms Kate Batchridge. Yes, I'm content. Thank you. Miss Haley Browning. Also content. Thank you. Thank you. Mrs Sarah Rogers. Yes. Thank you. And last but not least, Mrs. Joanne McNamara. That's fine, Chair. Thank you. I'm glad you said that. Finally, please may I remind all parties speaking not to repeat the information which they are already given in writing, but to expand on their written representations. All questions are to be asked through the chair, and there will be no cross examination of parties. I will now ask the licensing officer to present the report. Mrs Rogers. Thank you. An application has been made to permit off sales of alcohol from 8am until 11pm each day of the week within a convenience store located in a mainly retail and residential area of almost house center. Dorset police and trading standards as responsible authorities have made representations against the application as they believe that to grant the application would undermine the licensing objectives of the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety and the protection of children from harm. The applicant has offered two additional conditions and amendment to the delivery condition offered to mediate with the police for consideration. Details of these were in the supplementary evidence circulated yesterday from Mr. Day. There were no representations from any other person. Should this application be granted and the applicants fail to operate in accordance with the license and any conditions attached to it, they will be aware that any of the responsible authorities or any other person may request a review of the license at any time. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Rogers. Do members have any questions at all for the licensing officer. That's at this stage. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you members. Can I now call on Mr Day to make your presentation for the application, please. Hey, I asked Mrs Rogers question. Yes, sorry, Mr Day. You mentioned in your report, the public spaces protection order. Can you just assist the committee by confirming how much of the council's area is actually covered by that PSPO. I don't believe I mentioned it in my report. You do. You refer to the council's statement of licensing policy, particular paragraph 19.5. In cases where representations are made against applications for off sales barcode premises that are in areas where public spaces protection orders are in place. And then you talk about two others. The licensing authority may not support such applications and may refuse to pen the evidence presented support the representations. I'd like to check and get back to you. The area. This is McNamara, please. It may say so. I was the legal advising relation to draft in of that PSPO. So maybe something that I can answer if it assist you, Mr. Day. It covers most of the walls in BCP, apart from a couple on the periphery. I think it doesn't cover walk that. And another one sort of up to board stone area, but certainly in the central areas, there is that PSPO in place. It covers Christchurch, Bournemouth and pool town centres entirely. Yes, it would do. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Nothing else. Thank you, Mr. Day. Would you like to make your presentation on behalf of the applicant? Indeed. I'm going to be mercifully brief. And I'm mindful of your policy and what you've just said about not repeating anything that's being put in written representations. You will have had, I hope, and had an opportunity to read the two representations that I submitted yesterday. One of them for public consumption, the other not for public consumption for reasons that you've already alluded to. It refers to the trading standards evidence. If you've had an opportunity to consider those, then I don't really want to add anything more at this stage. Other than to say that with regard to the submission that I've made regarding the relevance and validity of the position adopted by trading standards. And I'm sure you'll take legal advice with regard to that. If you accept the submission, in this case, will be considerably shorter. And it may well be that you wouldn't even need to go into a private session and we would simply deal with the evidence that is induced by or on behalf of the police. My client and I here to assist you regarding any questions that you may have, or with regard to anything that requires further clarification. But for the moment, I propose to simply adopt, but without repeating all that's being said in my written representations and invite you to ask us questions or move on to hear from the police. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr day. Do members have any questions of Mr day at all. Thank you. Is there any others in the meeting this morning would like to ask any questions at all. And can we just ask the question is the is the premises currently trading but without an off license. Yeah, thank you. How long. How long have you had it. But he here. With your client being involved in the business. Yes, if you look at my written submission, then that will explain to you her involvement. This is the one that is below the lying. The trading standards one. So I need to be a little careful about what I say. But certainly the West over stores, which is the subject, this application. That's hers. The other premises. Not going to refer to them at this stage, but I've dealt with that in the written submission. Thank you, Mr day. If there are no further questions. May Paul upon. Sergeant Gosling to. Make a representation, please. Yes, of course, thank you chair along similar lines. Hopefully you've had the opportunity to digest the supplementary evidence that I submitted late last week. All I'd like to emphasize really is that. That particular area of town is a work in progress. There's been some really good progress made, which you will note from the illustrations that I've provided within the report. But as Hannah states, there is still a lot of work to do. And indeed, with the support of BCP council and the newly formed town team, which brings brings together a lot of different agencies to tackle the various issues. Of and social behavior and crime in the town center. It is anticipated will continue to make good progress in that regard. Our concern is that with this premises in this location that that effort will be undermined. And essentially, there are whilst it's not an issue for this committee to determine whether there are enough, because we don't, of course, have a cumulative impact policy in force within the town center. But there are sufficient premises throughout the town. However, the addition of a premises along Western road would cause a particular issue. And I'm available for any further questions that you might have. Thank you, Sergeant Gosling. Members have any questions. Any questions at all for Sergeant Gosling. Yes, if I may. You'd refer in your evidence to the YMCA hospital. Are you suggesting that that is a alcohol prediction recovery service. Without sort of knowing the full details as to who's in there any one time. I am aware that there are people within the YMCA who are dealing with very complex issues, many of which are often associated with alcohol. So they are effectively recovering from alcohol issue. Well, I'm sorry that wasn't because I respect the question. Sorry, sir. But that wasn't with respect to question. And I asked whether in your view, if you're able to answer it, and if you can't answer it, then please say so. And it falls within the wording of the policy and alcohol addiction recovery activities. It's a hostel for the homeless. Some of whom, yeah, have problems. But my understanding is that there are various other services also offered within the YMCA around education and rehabilitation. And some of that will likely include resolving complex issues, such as alcohol addiction. Can you help me with what I suggested was something of a contradiction in the evidence that you provided. Because P.C. Gribber, hope I pronounced her name correctly, has said over the past year, we've had reports from West Over Road of an increase in street drinkers, beggars, rough sleepers and shoplifters. Whereas in your supplementary evidence, with regard to levels of crime and antisocial behavior over the last 12 months, you said through the effective use of police resources and the support of our partners in the community, the level of reporting has reduced significantly. And you've very helpfully produced a couple of your little maps with the hotspots showing that the hotspots are very considerably less than they were. So, which of you is correct? P.C. Gribber is going up, or Sergeant Osling is going down. Sergeant Osling? Yes, thank you for the opportunity to clarify that point. With regards to crime and disorder reporting, there was often a discrepancy between what's actually reported to police through routes such as 101999 and online, and also what's been, if you like, Alec, totally reported to officers that are on the ground, speaking to the members of the public, whilst on patrol. And it's very interesting to get Hannah's perspective on that as somebody who is patrolling on foot, day in, day out, throughout the town centre, and often working late shifts, and has a really good understanding of what is truly happening on the ground. So, in order to be as transparent as possible, that's where I have presented the illustrations, which shows that the levels of crime record, crime reporting have gone down. And that's really good, it's a really good measure of satisfaction within the public. However, of course, Hannah quite rightly identifies that there's still problems that we're trying to tackle, and there if that's information that she's receiving on the ground. Thank you. Can I ask you about a statement of Rookan Taki, who's the Community Safety Accredited Officer. He talks about a period of some five months from January through to June of this year, 31 incidents on Westover Road, and five of which are drug or alcohol incidents, in other words, one a month. How does that compare with, let's say, Horsham Common, or other parts of old Christchurch Road, where we all know it's a hotspot for antisocial behaviour, and I'll call related to crime. Apologies, I don't have that information with me. Sergeant, with the greatest of respect, you've been a sergeant and a licensing sergeant in Bournemouth for a number of years. I'm not asking you to give me figures, but in terms of incidents, one alcohol stroke drug related incident a month in Westover Road. Isn't that extremely low compared with other areas of town, such as Horsham Common, Old Christchurch Road, and the like. Boscombe even. Again, I think there is a distinction to be drawn between the CSAS officers and the police. Carry out very similar functions with regards to tackling low level antisocial behaviour and crime. Unfortunately, they do have different reporting mechanisms, and that's the records that they have. Unfortunately, I don't have a comparison to draw between their records of, for example, what happens in Horsham Common or elsewhere in the town. Sergeant, your objection is based, if I can summarize it, on the specific location of these premises, and an assertion that whilst things may be getting better in terms of the number of reported incidents, etc. That have put an off license in this location will be the very small one, is going to make the situation a lot worse. Now, I'm inviting you to point me to specific evidence as to what the starting point is, how bad is it this bit of Westover Road? I mean, it's not really that bad, is it? Again, progress is being made, and it's really good that through the parts you're working with the local authority and the town team, we are making really good progress with regards to improving the area, producing the levels of crime disorder. But as I stipulated at the start, there's a lot more to be done, and it's our feeling that this would undermine those efforts significantly. Thank you, Sergeant Galsley. There's no cumulative impact policy in place, and in fact, you've gone so fast to say that there isn't any evidence to support the cumulative impact assessment for this part of Bournemouth. Isn't that right? That process is underway at the moment to assess whether or not there is enough evidence. As it stands today, there isn't the evidence to support cumulative impact policy within the town center, and hence why there isn't one. So there is therefore a presumption of grant, unless somebody can produce evidence that to grant this application would undermine one or more the licensing objectives. So can you just point me to the evidence that demonstrates that to grant this license would undermine the creation of crime disorder objective. Where's your residence? The evidence is that of the CSAS officer and from P.C. Griber who patrols the town center day in Dion has a really in depth understanding of that area of the town. Coupled with the illustrations with regards to the progress that's being made, which we're really proud to be achieving. The location being opposite bottom flow of gardens where we need to do specific patrols during, particularly the summer months and other festive periods throughout the year. It is our very much our view that the introduction of an off license in that area would be to the detriment of those efforts. Okay. We obviously the committee will look at that evidence that you've provided in your written state needs. Are you familiar with us to express, which is not too far away from this location. I'm not. It's at the top of both hill. Okay, the former so I think. Just just for clarification, they recently had an application, which was dealt with by the committee. I'm sure that's where you were going to do that. It was granted. Okay. And is that caused any additional problems in the locality to your knowledge. I've just been reminded by my fellow counselor, we only we only granted the license a month ago. Person causing. Yeah, I would like to focus on this, this license it's this premises license application. And see what to assess each one on its merits. I think to not do that would take us off all over the place. Right, I'm interested in lower gardens, you mentioned, there's been a lot of problems in the lower gardens, which is the purpose of today, bang or percent West over road. Can you elaborate a little bit for us. Yes, unfortunately, the lower gardens is as welcoming and beautiful as they are for the vast majority of people. Unfortunately, there are significant levels of crime and disorder that continue to occur. The police together with our partners are doing everything that we can to reduce those issues. So that is also sort of through through diversion tactics and try to create more opportunities for the youth. But unfortunately, we do continue to suffer issues in those guns, particularly the hedge area towards West West over road. And that continues to be an issue which we're planning planning now with regards to patrols throughout some period to make sure that we can improve the trust and confidence of those using the gardens, encourage more people into the gardens. And then more importantly, to discourage those intent on causing harm and encourage them to go elsewhere or stop their behavior. So there is still an awful lot of work as you rightly point out. Without, sorry, with without giving numbers and things that, did you say a lot of these are correlated or is it mixture. The feedback from the officers that are conducting the patrols is that on vast majority of occasions they are seizing alcohol from the young people, and others that are involved in in the issues throughout the gardens. It's no doubt. I don't think it's the only issue, but it's certainly a significant contributory factor in those problems. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for catching the wound. I'll throw any further questions. Just one final matter. Again, I'm going to be very careful how I put this. You will have seen the training standards representation. And with regard to the applicant, this is Kedir. The police have no reason to object to her being the holder of a license or the designation as the DPS is not correct. In respect. I'd be very careful about how I how I word it. There are no grounds that I can put forward to you today in relation to that. Thank you. And I'm going to leave it to that so. Mr Danny. Are there any further questions from members at all. Right. I would then at this point. I would like to move into exempt session. And I will run through. The wording. Just so that everyone present is aware. In relation to the exempt information being presented, the subcommittee is asked to consider the following resolution. That under section 14 to the licensing act 2003 hearings regulations 2005. And with regard to section 100 a four of the local government act 1972. The public be excluded from the meeting for the following item of business on the grounds that the public interest in withholding the information outweigh such interest in disclosing the information and that involves the likely disclosure. I would like to present information as defined in paragraphs one, two and seven in parts one of schedule 12 of the act. And I asked members, are we having to move forward with that. Yes. Thank you. Unanimous. Can I now ask the car if they were confirmed when the live stream live streaming has stopped, please. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.