Transcript

Is there anything else you'd like to hear from you?

No. All right. Good morning, councilors and officers, welcome to the place of sustainability and climate change community today. Fire alarm. There's no fire alarm tested. The plan today, therefore, anyone joining from a council of initiative alarm should sound. It would not be a test, and you should follow the prepared fire exit signs. Before proceeding today, I have to remind everyone present that the proceeding today's meeting will be in film live and be kept in the council's internet site. As they black out of the meeting, the images and sound recording may also be used for training purposes within the council. Members, I guess, attending via Zoom, acquiring the simulation translation of Western English should choose English from the internet button on the screen. Members whose real presence should choose English on the microphone unit. Those who are in attendance in the chamber should be new translation device, microphones provided. As of the public watching the meeting via English language webcast, you will see a Welsh and English simulation translation automatically. If remote members lose connection during the live meeting, please make every attempt to reconnect or ever the meeting will continue as long as the meeting is correct. I also explained that there are any members of the public joining the meeting today sent in to being filmed and those images appear on the council's internet site. The record of the meeting may also be used for training purposes within the council. The procedure, personal information, it has several appointments and tasks carried out by the public and just by the council. As has the official authority listed in the council can ask office of the present. I mean, today, please do this up before I could ask committee members for the cameras on for their tradition of the meeting and just when speaking. All the useful absence, one, apologies to me to see if I'm comfortable. Philip's welcome comes to die Thomas, now it's up in this morning, welcome die. The declaration of interest including party reps, we show today, we have a response from the court of conduct where we will declare any person interests you have in the nation where I don't pay it on the agenda today. Please show that clearly and to get which member gender I tell you are there, person interests and civic nature interests to be disclosed. You will also need to repeat the declaration of person interests, the mencement of the living agenda item in that whether or not you are drawing from the meeting to unconstitutional item. And most of the main members of party reps are not allowed at scrutiny if there is money in operation. You must be declared and members subject to the web not be allowed to vote on issues subject to the web. Can members please raise your hand if you wish to declare interests or party web has been issued, they should win the agenda item before your day. Good, the main members who were in the agenda is more clear than what you can resume. Right, anybody to carry interest? Gareth? Yeah, I'll talk to you real quick. Thank you, Chair. I need to declare an interest on the public pass item. As a farmer, I have many paths crossing on my land, so I won't be taking part of voting on this item. I think I need to leave the meeting, but if anybody thinks I should please advise, but I don't think I need to. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. As Councillor Thomas has mentioned, I have a public path crossing the land that I own. And I won't be taking part in the discussion. Thank you. Neil? I've got to declare an interest because I work in the decarbonisation field with renewable energy and electric vehicles. I've been told I can contribute to the discussion, but I'm not going to vote. That's OK. It's community scale. It's not a private. That's right. That'll be declared. Right. Thank you. That's nobody else declaring anything. Right. Item number three, public questions. I confirm that no public questions are being received. Item number four, fleet are low emission vehicles, ULEF transition structurally. This is on page five of your gender pack. Report paradise, update of fleet, ULEF transition vehicles, ULEF translation structurally. I'll ask I remember a little more when we present the report. Thank you very much, Chair. And it's a great pleasure to present this report to you today on what is Earth Day and to get the opportunity to reinforce ambition to work towards a net zero county council. As a council that has declared a climate emergency and nature emergency, it's great to be able to share and discuss progressive ideas at meetings such as scrutiny and also in the cross-party climate and nature panel. The report in front of you is a sort of statement of the current situation, if you like, as we design our journey towards a low carbon fleet. And the direction of travel is clear. We have already declared that we want to become net zero and the fleet contributes about 19 per cent on emissions. The Welsh government target, under their prosperity for all strategy, low carbon whales, is to have a light fleet and ultra low emissions by 2025 and a fleet by 2030. And there are also robust air quality assurance targets in our community, and transforming to electric vehicles will also help with this. Our thanks go to Kon Shikensha and passionate officers who have been working with the Welsh government's energy service who have provided special advice for us to understand and to benchmark this present situation and support us to develop a low emission fleet transition plan. And that's what the aim of this discussion is to get input and ideas from members to help to design the best possible strategy. The cross-party panel on climate and nature is also part of the process where they do a sort of a deep dive on the transition to net zero fleet. So far you can see we have created a decision-making process on transforming the fleet, which we call a TEAP, and the intention is that this will be used permanently as a decision process on deciding on the most suitable vehicles. But by engaging with the energy service, we have been fortunate to get grant funding to expand our charging network within our depots. But we have also been able to add 40 light electric vehicles to the fleet already. You will see that this has increased our percentage of our electric vehicles quite significantly. So before finishing, I'd like to ensure that we are taking this opportunity to transform our fleet over the next few years and we're taking this seriously. We have experienced officers in the fleet management side, but we are also engaging with transport experts who give us a robust evidence based on wide research. So I'd like to propose to the committee, if you would like, a short seminar on introducing what transforming to a zero carbon fleet is so we can teach ourselves about the advantages of changing the fleet and also introducing members to the vans and electric lorries that we have at the moment and also to hear from the staff who drive these vehicles every day. So with those few words, I'm happy to present this report to the committee. Thank you. Well, thank you for that and for what, could we do that in the forward plan? No, this is very, very important and thank you for all the work that's been done. It is a challenge with the cutbacks that local government is facing and how do we get to zero by the challenge that we have to find the most frustrating part of being in local government now is at the savings, we've got to do all the time and cutbacks and when this needs, the plan that is when we've seen what's been happening in the last year or so with this winter we've had, I've never seen such rain we've ever had and all the weather is and there was a farmer on, I think this morning with all his fields were totally destroyed with the crop and when you see that going on, that's why we need to tackle the climate because it is an emergency then or dump now in my mind and we can see that day by day in the world. Neil, I think we've got a contribution to make and we can open up the debate. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, and I welcome this report, it's fantastic, you're really lovely to read. All my comments today, mental is constructive, help and guidance, if I can offer you any. As many of you will know, I've been driving electric cars for 12 years and I'm very aware of the advantages and the disadvantages of driving electric. I love the deep analysis. With the environmental, I think it's important to stress as Alan did about the air quality issues, you know, because as long as already monitoring air quality, we can show the way forward on that. From a LCA analysis, just to reassure everyone from a life cycle analysis, the batteries will last about 25 years, that's what it's showing now, I mean they do denude by 1-2% per annum but after 15 years the car will be scrapped, let's call it cars or van and then the battery be used yet again for second life domestic storage and then it will be fully recycled. So you know, we haven't got to worry too much about batteries as some people do, obviously the cost cutting and the cutbacks that the chair mentioned are significant and we just haven't got the capital to buy all these vehicles as I'm sure we all know, but what I can reassure you today from my knowledge and experience is that we will save a fortune. This is a real opportunity for public service bodies, for local authorities to save a great deal of money apart from all the environmental and practical advantages. So a few suggestions, use the page you save model, so a lease purchase model so that you get the cars fairly cheaply up front or the vans or the larger vehicles up front and then by lease purchase you can own the vehicles and then keep them for eight to ten years at least because as many people know with electric vehicles there's far few moving parts, far few things to go wrong and the maintenance costs are far reduced as I know to my own benefit over the years. I've got a seven year old car outside here today that hasn't had anything done, I think it was a wiper blades, tires and that's about it really, so I think there's a pump for the washer that I've had to do in seven years, there's very few things to go wrong, so don't just keep the cars for three years as it's been traditionally the internal combustion engines, keep them for a much longer period of time and that's when there's a local authority we'll realize the cost advantage is. Another crucial thing and I'm taking part on a panel with transfer for Wales and Welsh government is don't charge if you can avoid it at the peak rates, it'll be far better for the grid and far better for local authority if we negotiate a time of use tariff as we have at home, so you charge overnight at 5P, seven and a half per unit and the savings there, I mean I was saying to the chair that I hired a van to go up to London the other day and I could not believe having driven electric cars for 12 years that I was putting £120 with a diesel that I then burnt, it's a very strange behaviour, so you know if I charged that vehicle as an electric vehicle on my own system overnight it would cost less than £10, so you can pay £120 with £10, £15 let's say, you can imagine the cost savings over 607 vehicles for local authority so let's make sure as a local authority we access these cheap overnight tariffs and that's also beneficial for the grid, for bouncing the grid and one message don't worry we're not alone here, every local authority in UK is on a similar journey, let's learn from each other, let's learn from the experts, I've got a Gwent energy running 80 charging points for Torweinburg Council at the moment and they've got it a significant fleet, so people are doing it and the opportunities are really good, there will be a need for training and teaching charging etiquette, you know you don't want someone charging a van on a Thursday and not coming back till Monday, you know we need to make sure the charge points are accessible, by doing it in an organised fashion as I'm sure we will we need fewer charge points you know so we can organise all that, but yeah I welcome the report, I want to reassure members we're concerned about the costs of it, this is an opportunity to save significant sums of money, improve air quality, do our decarbonisation targets, so I welcome the report and I offer my help and guidance at every turn if we can go forward, thank you. You know this, it means a good point on the charging, are we looking at acting to make sure that we are saving, you know, we're just you know because you know I don't know if somebody can come in like I think that's a really really good point you know because we can you know have all these vehicles, but if we don't we'd properly and train you know whatever I think this is really important. Yeah yeah absolutely thank you very much Councillor for your contribution, very wise words there, some of the things that we're already starting to work through and a member here is on the cross party panel which will be diving deeper into some of those thoughts that you've brought up, of course we're not alone, all authorities are on this journey and we've got experts to help guide us here, but Dan if you've got any particular response too. No I think if you're input into that and I suppose very valid points around the equality and the deep assessment as well, in terms of the financial burden and the potential savings that is all being worked out through this process now, what we're looking to do is develop a robust sustainable and affordable transition plan for us as Commander's County Council, that doesn't just include the vehicle but it will include the electric vehicle charging infrastructure as well that we will need around the county combined with then the charging etiquette, the training and the maintenance training as well. So this is the transition to electric vehicles is not going to be overnight, we have taken a significant step forward but what we do need to do now is make sure that what we do is sustainable for the long term and doesn't impact long term benefit over a faster than a necessary transition, yeah thanks, Dr David, perhaps I should have asked my questions first because a lot of them have been, and now we learn, yeah, you come now straight off the car with and all the data, yeah, so my concerns under the economic pressures we've got to present is the cost, extra costs and the returns to the extra costs, starting with purchasing of the vehicles we know is 20, 30% at least more for electrical vehicle which is a big cost when you get a big fleet, it is a cost in itself, it's been explained that they do pay their way, unfortunately I was misled by reading some article in the Times, not that I read the Times Office, someone passed it on to me and said it was taken to four years before the carbon footprint of electric car had caught up with a combustible engine because that mass production, well it's true not, I'm more concerned of what's happening within this council about the cost evolved, it'd be great if we could, I've always looked at electrical vehicles, even as a farming situation it won't fit into my way of farming because they're not powerful enough and we haven't got enough electric, we are using electric on the farm on the cheap rate, we try and heat all the water for the milking and we try and do one milking on the cheap rate, saves a lot of money, so what said is quite true, coming back as I say the second question was first how much more would it cost to electrify the fleet which is put in people on the spot now and I apologise for that, secondly the insurance, my insurance broker tells me that a third more because they're concerned about if they have a right off on a electric car they got the dispose of the lithium batteries and we know a present lithium is difficult to dispose of, I know my colleague here did say that they were recycling a present, I'm led to believe, and I might be wrong with that, that there isn't much recycling down on lithium, it's something that's going to happen in the future, so that the insurance cost, what was the third one I was going to ask you as well and I passed me but it was not important, probably it's been answered anyway, so yeah the questions I had and I think some of them have been answered but we need to know exactly the cost of what we call it, the extra cost to the county for go electric, secondly a friend of mine has got a electric car and it's eight years old, it's down to 60% of the battery was now to what it was when it was new, so I drove eight years, it's a long time, so the cost of charging, the cost of that comes in but also he can't find any garage at 100, any problems that he's come across, this again is something, it's chicken and the egg isn't it, the more electric the more demand we'll have a new system, we'll have new carages coming up just for electrical cars, so it's good for the economy there but what comes first, do the chicken first or did the egg but if you've got electric car and you're eating, sorting out my friends having problems at present with it just because it's not enough there, and as I say insurance, my insurance broker tells me that it can be up to 30% more, so there's three questions there but when the extra cost, secondly the we call it the insurance and thirdly then the carages to service and the cost of servicing, I assume our present is servicing will be much more because it's not done widely but these are all problems we've got to face but I think the report was an exceptional report, very very well balanced because I sometimes can be a doubting Thomas but this was very well very well said, very well written and it gave me food for thought again, so yeah talking about it, I'll answer a question and ask thy Thomas to come in there, Dan Doon, I just want to thank the Councillor for his contributions, yes moving forward will require us to look at economic models differently and that's what I'm reassured that the advice we're having is we can't do what we've always done to expect that things are going to be different in the future, a net zero future, all models will need to be explored to make sure that the economics balance out with of course the environmental and the social benefits there. On the maintenance I think you raised a good point there, we are going to need to upskill our own society for the transition to a net zero future, maybe the head of service will be able to expand more on our relationship with Colleksir Gar with their green skills, green 24 project where we hope to be working with industry leaders on EV maintenance to train up internal staff here and who knows why the society is well and I guess just pushing back to what I said earlier about where we could have a seminar and push back on maybe some of the non-factual narratives, we'll call them that are out there about myths and stuff, maybe we can have a good session and bottom those out so that we really understand what's going on in the world and the direction of travel globally so that we're all singing from the hymns and saying that they're not being led by narratives in the media but I'll hand over to Dan. Dan if you've got something on the insurance. That puts me in the spot. I don't have an answer on the insurance at the moment however we do have regular meetings with our insurance broker from a fleet perspective so what I will do, I'll pose that question at the next fleet risk meeting that we have to calculate by email in future if that be. In terms of just reiterating what I said then around full cost model, we will need to have to assure that our fleet is affordable long term. That is multifaceted in terms of moving back to actually is the vehicle required on our fleet? Can we look at greater utilisation, sharing the vehicles across services to minimise the number of vehicle on our fleet to begin with? The second level down then is how can we decarbonise? How can we make that affordable? Making that whole of life costing so do we extend the life of that vehicle because of the maintenance charges are far less, etc. This is our first step in developing a whole life cost for our fleet with the electric vehicles and then on to the skills within Commander and within the UK on vehicle maintenance. As mentioned, we are working with colleagues here now on the Green Skills Academy, developing a prospectus for us as Commander and Chair but also for the wider industry and Commander and Chair. One of the elements of that is around electric vehicle maintenance and how can we improve the skills in the community whether that be at a local level or at Commander and Chair County Council. You mentioned around battery disposal, etc. as well in that we are working at a national level as well as government with the 22 local authorities and looking at problematic waste materials going forward and batteries have been mentioned and looking at how we can become a globally responsible Wales whether there is potential for recycling plants within Wales for battery technology is something that we are having conversations on as well. Thank you for that. I can't tell my camera on for some reason but never mind. I've got three points. I'm on page 9 or 62 on page 44 in the blue, I think. The rapid charges. Now, one of the reasons people in the winter might be doing one of the reasons people are reluctant by electric cars is that there is no more shortage of charges. Is there any way that we can make some of these council charges away to the public, especially maybe the one in Santa Valley because the world always is sadly depleted in EV charge plants, especially 50 kilowatt ones. Okay, that's my first point. My second point is on 312 it says the proposed increase from 1.8% to 8% by 31st March 2024. I presume it is more than 8% by now. Is it? Has anyone got the figures for end rate for 2024? That's my second point. My third point is a long term world rate. The reason the EV is achieved to charge is because an electricity is charged at 5% but whereas petrol is taxed at the governor's watch about 100% I think if petrol the government is going to lose income with the shift to EVs and even look for some other source of income and what it means to be off and on whether they're going to start charging off peak electricity more or something. Yeah, so those are my three points and if nobody can answer the third one really we just don't know. But I just want making the charge points available to the public. Yeah, I have to hand over the service here. I would assume we do have an EV infrastructure policy that has been through here which looks at the the process where there are not debt bows. There will be some insurance and health and safety issues there but if there are any spots up in rural areas that need further discussions upon what role we have and what role the private sector have to supply electric charge points. There's definitely room for that conversation. So I'm not sure about the the public services board and doing a piece of work at the moment where different public bodies can access one another's charge points which allows great range for public service workers to to go right across the county. I know that's not answering the question but that's an interesting point. Again, I wouldn't be able to answer the wider question about the Tory parties or whichever UK government tax implications on electricity but it's an interesting point that I haven't thought of. Yeah, that is right on our one because you know the pot them and either comes in on diesel and oil and in the end. So I asked that would have to be filled somewhere so I can see that could be a problem on the line. Dan, do you want to answer that question? Yeah, so in terms of, I'll touch them in turn, in terms of our council owned assets for charging, we have to be in sure as an authority that when our vehicles need to be charged there is the availability to do that. Otherwise there's the potential in failure of service from us as an local authority perspective. So that is a priority for us. The next step of that again is around security and any of those areas which are council depots that are restricted access to the public, again, remains challenging for allowing unfettered access to our charging infrastructure. However, in places like leisure centres, et cetera, we do allow the public to charge their vehicles. There is one in the leisure centre of Glendovry and pretty certain that is available to public use and we also have three rapid charges and one fast charger in the car park at Glendovry at present. When we are looking at electric vehicle charging capacity in future, we will have to look at where the gaps are in the county and how we can actually improve that in areas that will lead to less rapid transition, not just for us as an authority, but for the public at large as well. So that will be undertaken through a gap analysis. Councillor Thomas, in the way we look forward, but there are a number of issues where we can't allow unfettered access to our depots or locations for charging at present. You were also asked around then where we are in terms of our transition. When I mentioned end of March at 8%, we per cent of our total fleet being electric vehicle, they haven't been in three weeks any further fleet purchases, deliveries into the fleet unit, as I'm aware of. So we are still at 8% at the moment. However, as you've seen in the policy, looking at the deep approach moving forward, each purchasing service will have to look at electric at default if it is technically, economically, environmentally practicable for them to do so at that time. And there will be still services that purchase diesel vehicles at this time because of a multitude of reasons that are set out in the report, but we are looking at a gradual and sustainable transition now. And I think I will leave any comments on national policy to... Thank you. Thank you. I was just going to say watch out for the VAT implications on these vehicles because it can make a hole in the cash flow, depending on when you have to pay it. I'm sure you're building that one. Before you come in, Neil, I'm going to have to speak to you. You can come in then. Right. Well, I didn't notice in the last couple of years there's one person living opposite me. No, they've had solar panels put on the roof, 8, and they put their own charger to charge their own two vehicles, right? They've got it outside there. There's another two of them in couple of years. Now, is there any way that the council, whenever they keep their vehicles, obviously, should we be using solar panels to charge these vehicles up? I mean, we've got all the buildings everywhere the vehicles are, there's whatever the vehicles are out, there's buildings there. We can put solar panels on there, and they could be used then to charge these vehicles. That could point. Yeah. So again, much like a lot of our council services, our independence, interdependencies across multiple of it. So our building stock and the decarbonisation of our building stock is a priority for us to come out and show how we invest in whether solar panel renewable energy sources to power our buildings, but then the additional capacity to charge vehicles is being looked at at present as well. And we are working as a department with boarder Griffiths team with Kendall looking at how we can prioritise the areas which we invest in renewable energy that would supplement our operational services such as vehicle charging, et cetera as well. So that is being looked at in the round. Thank you. Neil? Just pick up a couple of points. Reiterate, don't keep the vehicles for three years because I've got someone who runs Swansy Uni fleet and breaks his heart when he lets the vehicles go after three years because they're just getting going with 20,000 miles on the clock here at Swansy. With the lithium recycling, the reason there isn't wide-scale car battery recycling yet, there will be is that the batteries are lasting too long. So they're lasting 25 years, the cars wouldn't have been round for 12 years. So the companies that are going to go into it are recycling laptop batteries, phone batteries, but they will be recycling every 100% of the car batteries eventually, just all the batteries are lasting forever. With the tax, there is a huge social equity in that when I charge my car overnight at home, I'm paying 5% tax on that electricity. When someone who hasn't got off-road parking has to go down the road to charge at Morrison's store or wherever, they're paying 20% tax VAT on their charging. So they've been unfairly taxed for the same product. The roads are paid for as I will know by general taxation, not by vehicle exercise duty. So the roads will have to carry on being paid for by general taxation, but petrol and diesel in the fossil fuel industry is massively subsidized by the UK government. The tax breaks for Rosebank and 98%. So I think it'll be a more equitable world when we get off fossil fuels from a taxation point of view. Thank you. Thank you for that information. Di, do you want to come back there? Yeah, just to answer Neil there. Yeah, I agree Neil, but the roads aren't absent. I've funded from general taxation, I know. But still, I'm not talking about vehicle exercise duty, either. I'm talking about the VAT and the fuel duty. But still, it's a huge contributor to UK government finances. And as the EVs increase, that tax state is going to go down on the fuel duty. So the government is going to look at other ways of getting income. That's my point. Yeah, the other one. Yeah, I think that's going to happen. But we will have to wait and see in a future government's one of the next one. Maybe a lot of the time because these things, these are such going to happen. Right, I think we've had a fairly early on essays anymore. I think nobody else was indicated to come in. So somebody now move the report. Nobody move. I just move. Somebody second. That's Gareth. All in favour of the report? Yeah. Everybody again, abstentions? No. Right. In our decision. Right. Thank you. I don't want to thank you for that. We now move on to item number five. And it's public rights away. I said assessments. Right. This is Edward. This is going to come in on this. Edward. Chair, thank you. Technically now, the public rights away have actually moved to my colleague to my left-hand side. However, I'm more than happy to. Before we start, I just like... So we start, because of my declaration interest, because I've got paths crossing my farm, I won't be taking part of voting. Do you want to come in and come out? Thank you, Chair. Just like Councillor Thomas, just to really declare my interest in the item, I've got a full path crossing my land. So I won't be taking any part in the debate. Yeah. Well, I was going to... I'll let you know. I don't know. Issues that Edward's name is. I was just hearing. I'm happy to. Thank you very much for the opportunity to give you an update on the public rights away asset assessment. As the report shows, we've got a network of over 2,500 kilometres in the county, and as I'm sure you can appreciate, this is a significant distance to assess. So by engaging with the Ramblis Group, we have developed an innovative project to train volunteers to make assessments of the network, and that will then feed in essential information to officers on the condition of the whole network. This information will give us important data on the condition of the paths, and this will enable us as an authority to take action where appropriate and prioritise spending or engage landowners, etc. The report goes into much more detail, and officers are here to answer any questions, or respond to comments. So with those few words, Chair, I am happy to present the report. Thank you. Thank you for that. I noticed from page 23, the survey was done in 2018, 52.3%, not 5% on the network. I've been on council 45 years. Now, the town council that I represent used to do all the maintenance of the paths in our area, and I'm sure right across the county, more that was done, and grass cutting. I honestly think the time has come where we need to have another partnership working with town and community councils to make sure that, because the problem now is we, as I've thought, I've got the resources to do what, when we took them all over, we need to have some kind of new system where, you know, we have that partnership with them, because at the end of the day, our burn for paths are not getting maintained anymore, and there's been a massive decline in the last 10 years, because the town community councils aren't maintaining those for paths. Now, tourism is a massive area, and I've learned in the last couple of years that tourism is a big pull for people to walk, and especially the black mountains and the areas that I represent, that they are prepared to come and stay in bed and breakfast, and all that, to do that. And I know it's a local firm that's now really doing well of people who want to do this. But it has a lot of paths as well that no longer have fit for purpose, and maybe at the time has come to reveal some of those, and look at where we can open up and make sure that these tourists' traction for paths that are open to make sure we regenerate come out of the share, because the more people stay in come out of the share, in bed and breakfasts and in all these kind of places, they create jobs, they create investment, and keeps the tourists' industry going. So, I think we need to have a look at how do we, you know, improve that, and that, you know, I think we can, I've been told, Pembrochia are really good at this and well, but how do we learn from other authorities, how they do it, you know. I'm not criticizing nobody here, but I think the time has come from better partnership working with town and community councils, and I know there's, that they find it tough as well, you know, to keep the footbuzz open, but we need to do that partnership. So, I don't know, open to the floor. Now with us, my view on all these things, I think the time has come for better working with local councils, because otherwise we cannot do everything. It's impossible with all the roots. When you look at many, we've got, there's no way in Europe, and you see that map with all, it's are you up there when you see it in its entirety, and I think that's a shock me when I saw that. So, I'll call him first and then dive, Thomas, and call in. Good, thank you very much, Chairman. Very much agree with your sentiments on this issue, and if I can encapsulate that by the situation we find ourselves with, and you know this very well, Chairman, the Riverside Walk, for example. I mean, see the responsibility for maintaining the Riverside Walk between those, Aminford and Brin Amin, lies with a few community councils, and the difficulty that we've got is getting these community councils to maintain their section, not just the actual footway itself, but the boundary fencing, which in part says collapsed. You've got continuous encroachment by not only because it's obviously next door to the river, you have encroachment via the Japanese knotweed, and also the Himalayan balsam, much beloved by the key beekeepers in our community, apparently, the Himalayan balsam is quite popular, but it is an obnoxious foreign weed that is coming, and it's eroding the quality of the Riverside Walk and is affecting the, as you said, the tourism, etc. People love going up that Riverside Walk all the way up to Brin Amin. So it's a huge issue and appears to be a situation which is not coordinated between the community councils, resulting in some parts that are being maintained properly, but the majority that is not. So I entirely agree with your sentiment, and I think it's high time that we have a more coordinated approach, possibly organized by the county council, in order that these treasured walkways that we've got maintained to the best possible standard and appreciated by the tourists and the people that regularly use these significant walks. Thank you, Chairman, but I totally agree with the comments that you made. Councillor Thomas. Do you agree with how you care when you call them, basically, and try to sort it out, but I'm worried by the prowl that I use in business, because if we prowl, that's what we said, this way and the coastal path, the place is like the one about Ali and my non-word pentagross, by no stretch of the imagination. This pentagross is a big tourist, and it would be even worse, and people that pentagross can out on the paths. A lot, there's always people competing to be able to stick to the paths, and then I'd just like to raise one other point while I'm here about the volunteers. It's on page 25, I think, is it? Let me find my notes here. What's it called? And where was something? Getting volunteers to look after the paths. I didn't know about this, that there was a volunteer scheme. What publicity has been given to this scheme, and can we have more publicity, please, to get more volunteers in. Okay, Dioff. Thank you. Karan, you can see you there. Would you like to say a few words on what's been said and the report? I'll sort of work it along through the comments as they've been made, yours initially. The reason why the Town of Community Council maintenance program was ended when it was, is because we were only working with a handful of Town of Community Councils and providing them with a financial contribution to do that work on our behalf. There was a calculation made that if more Town of Community Councils came on board, we couldn't continue with that financial contribution across the whole 72 communities. Should that happen? So it was a very unfair system in terms of those that were benefiting, and the communities where Community Councils wanted to come on board or were yet to show an interest. They wouldn't have been able to be supported in the same way. So the idea was to move the resource into in-house staff who could do that same work. Now, unfortunately, it hasn't worked out that way, and we've reviewed again since, and we do have some Town of Community Councils working with us again, but using more of their own precepts to cover that work than the contribution from us. And the longer-term approach is, yes, it's partnership working, and yes, we would be happy to work with Town of Community Councils, but on a more voluntary basis. So this volunteer workforce that we've established for the asset assessment of over 100 individuals so far, we would be looking to have them working in partnership with us going forward to do maintenance works on our behalf in the same way that the Town of Community Councils did previously. And we've approached Town of Community Councils about the volunteer scheme. They've had correspondence on it, as well as there's been social media adverts gone out. There's been press released on the same subject. So we've been out, and we have recruited volunteers, and I say there's over 100 volunteers on the list now. So the advertising has been out there. If it's been missed, obviously that's unfortunate. We probably will run it again as the project continues, just to make sure that any new interest isn't missed, but we've made a really good start. So have I missed any of the queries? Oh, the prioritization, yep, that was the one. So the prioritization category A, yes, it does include our long distance walks, your synesthesia trails, heart of Wales Land Trail, these are nationally promoted routes, and we really want to make a good impression on those routes that are promoted nationally. So if anybody came down, they'll use one of our national trails through the county and, you know, effectively be impressed by what we've got to offer. But within that same category, we do have all ability routes and high, football, high use routes. So those are routes within our more urban areas, which are used by a higher number of members of the public. So they all sit within that same high category A, high priority. So I think we capture a good number of the routes that people value the most. And then if you drop down to category B, we've got all multi-user routes. So those routes we have fewer of, but actually cater to more users, your cyclists and your horse riders. And then we've also got our own county walks. So again, we're capturing those routes that have the potential for the highest usage. We have to, we had to prioritize the network, you know, as was said in the introduction, we've got over two and a half thousand kilometers. It's a huge network, and it's not when you can tackle easily because we're crossing private land, multiple landowners, multiple land types. So it's a difficult network to look after. So by prioritizing, we can at least make sure that those routes that are front and centre for the county are in the best possible condition. And as and when resources allow, we can pick up those lesser, lower priority routes with the resource we have remaining and hopefully going forward the volunteer workforce that we're building as it's, at the moment. Yeah, thank you, Pat and the couple of for me. Yeah, you know, some of the routes go through the national parks, you know, and this is another thing that we've got to work with partners as well, and that's important. Is there a possibility that we could look at each community, including my own, and see what part is that the town council could, we could ask them to have a look about the maintenance because my council, when I went on what 40 years ago, should maintain at least about 15 of these urban paths. Now they don't get done anymore, but the problem is there is a massive decline. I will open up a look at one tomorrow. Massive decline because the town council should release one a year. And you work that out over 15, maybe 20 a period. They would do them all in that period, but now they're not doing any of it. And that's only my area. I'm sure it's like that everywhere. So could we look at a partnership approach or are we, you know, I like which ones we think that the town community council could do on or behalf and work in partnership with them? And I think that time has come. The other area that I'm concerned about is class cutting. I don't think it's as good now cutting the paths as it was. And again, it's down to financial problems. Again, is there any way of looking a partnership working with community councils on that one as well? So those are a couple of questions. Tina, and then you can come back on that one. Tina is next. You're Kevin. How will what's proposed in this report help areas such as footpaths that I've got in my board, which is going to leave the issue on it, and has been like that since 2017 that I know of. The area, the path, I have so many complaints about it because it seems to run the width of the village, but it's not been looked at for years. And you know, how will this report help in a situation like that? I can't be the only council that has that situation in their world. Get up and out. Right. That's the Peter Cooper. Right. I've got to be honest, I'm going to be a community council. They do an excellent job as far as my work, the Saron board and Karen's board. They cut the glass twice a year. They do look up to the footpaths. They're not complaints. You let them know and they do work on them. So we're fortunate that we're very lucky. The footpath here in Saron, they take not over, they look cut it regular. They're very good. The only complaint I do have in any Karens and complaints as well is that we've got a country park in Parkland Road, not marked from the Karen Road. Now, we are grunts with the crime school people at the time, I know back a few years now, and Craig was the executive board member for environment, as it was called in old days. I asked Craig to meet me down in Pennabine. We had a look at the land. It was all white, it was brambles, horses in there, which it wouldn't have been in there. And he checked up and it had all come to land. And to be fair, we set up a committee and our land was on it to Karens as well. He was on it with us as well. They were doing excellent work, right? They're all out, we are grunts. I think we are the total, the money comes to put a lot of money into it, and also we are grunts. I think there's hundreds of thousands of homes in total. It was good. There's little kids park, there's everything, and there's nothing else in the area. And all of a sudden, now, three years ago now, Ayuron was the person in the, what do you call our place, where they work from, in Tambourh, in Tambourh, where was it? The Grays were coming down. The Grays was with us, Ayuron working from there. It was great. It was about two years ago now, Ayuron. And it's been a left to go. If you actually see in the state, to be known, right? It's going back to wilderness. It's not going to be a community council. This has been kept back by the country parks, apparently. They've hung on to the walls and they're responsible for the maintenance. Now, to go and see that now, and the number of complaints we get about that, please, and there's a lot of footprints in there. It's a big area. What I'd like to know is why are these no-mixed and not to be carried out at all, on these, no grass, can nothing grow. Well, that's what we were looking to, and I'm so relieved we could look into that and come back with to let the local members know why that's not being maintained. I'm happy to take any local issues. We can discuss it. Thank you. I wondered what the policy difference was between a pavement and a public right of way. I know that in the open countryside, you expect grassy paths with a bit muddy sometimes, and then in other areas where there's byways and so on. You've perhaps got a bit of grit there as well, and perhaps on some of the public footpaths. I'm just thinking if you're in an urban area, which I would, I think Caroline mentioned, category A, where there is a lot of footfall, and you've got a few metres of mud and grass. Then either side of that, there's tarmac. It just seems that one should fill in the bit in between to join it up, because it's not a public footpath in my eyes that you would consider as you would in the open countryside. So I just wondered what the policy difference was and how you change that in order to have it tarmac a little tiny bit. Right, just asking the question. Yeah, you know, I knew you were checking over this brief, and I want me to be doing one, some together briefly, and you realize that there can be suggestions, including myself, so we can have a look at, you know, what else in partnership working, because we can't do everything, but some of the things that the members have brought up this morning during myself, you know, the way forward really, you know, to see what else we can do to improve the network. And I know the map shows it, or difficult it is, but I think you're working with, well, otherwise our footpath network is going to go even more decline, you know, and there's no doubt about it. I know it is down to financial cutbacks and all that, and all that, even at the local level. There we are. I'm just going to suggest maybe this is something we could raise in the forward work program. Is there is there room, is there space for us to look at how we can engage. Yeah, because we're looking at this now later on, where we are with India, I agree with you. Karan, do you want to say any more before we finish on this now? I will add that in terms of community priorities you mentioned, we did actually go out to all of the community councils when we established the network hierarchy. Granted, we did only give each community 5% of the total length of network in their area, because we had to find a fair and proportionate distance of path that we could actually do something with. If we'd given more, we would have not reasonably been able to deal with it, but we did go out to every kind of community council and asked that they give their priorities, and those went into category C for those who actually came back to us. Very few did. I thought we had a quintillion number, but I think it was in the region about 14 communities came back and gave us their priorities. Obviously, a lot of the communities have got county walks within their areas as well, so they're already sitting higher up the hierarchy than those Cs. The question about legal issues, the assessment probably isn't going to contribute to the result resolution of those issues, but what it will contribute to is our up-to-date knowledge of what the situation is on the whole network. It's a snapshot of the network that we've never had. It's completely unprecedented to have information on every path across the county and to be able to categorise the issues that are found and be able to put a figure against the number of assets we have, the number of legal issues we have, the number of pieces of furniture we have to go forward with and help contribute to our forward work plan and the projects that we're going to put within that. That's what this is really to help with, more than individual legal issues. The policy question perhaps isn't one for today, but I can provide a response on that via email unless anybody wants me to talk fun about that now as well. We'll discuss in the forward program later, but maybe that we look at possibly looking at the list for community councils in each area and ask them will they be prepared to, because I know that it's us locally that maintain those and now because they're not maintaining them, just so maybe a list of things we'd like them to do. Now they might turn around and say no, we're not going to do them, but at least then I think that kind of work. So we'll raise it now later on, but I can thank you for your contribution and I know it's close to everybody's art in this room. Anybody else now, until I wind this up, as soon as the last one, then I will move on. Thank you. Just to ask if only 14 of the town and community councils responded to the priority footpaths in their area, could you not ask the county councilors through response as well, because I think we know our wards and which, well, I know which ones are the worst ones. There we all know that. Yeah, so why don't we respond to the 5% if nobody else has. Yeah, maybe we got to do it again, but we'll discuss it now in the forward program now. There we are. Can somebody move the report then? Can somebody move? Yes, Anil, somebody second. Let's go over there. Thank you. And thank you very much for that, and thank you for the colouring. It's really lovely to hear all in favour, including myself. Anybody against? Can we just give them a little time to? Yeah, sorry. Any abstentions? Me, Kevin? No, Tina abstaining. Right, Tina abstaining. Right, thank you. Now then we'll move on then, and we know on the revenue capital budget, monetary report, 23-24. This is on page 29 of the agenda park. Now we ask the councilor Anilene to present the report. Thank you very much, Chair. This agenda item gives an update on the latest budgetary position on the 31st of December, 2023, in respect of services under the remit of this committee. Appendix A on page 33 summarises the divisional out turns with the overall estimated net position, showing an overspend of 2.2 million, a large proportion of which, which is about £700,000, is due to the actual pay award for 23-24 being more than was budgeted for. The Highways and Transportation Division are forecasting a 1.1 million overspend for the year. The main variances are £300,000 due to serious damage to highways during the recent storms, loss of income on parking services of £228,000 and a 1.1 million overspend on school transport. The school transport overspend is due to increased transport costs for operators, who have then escalated the tendered contract prices for the statutory provision of home to school transport. But bus companies are continuing to experience driver shortages, a global supply chain shortages for vehicles and parts and a period of very high fuel prices, which make for a challenging environment. These overspends are partly offset by staff vacancies during the year, staff time recharged to grants and increased income. The Waste and Environmental Services Division is forecasting an overspend of £664,000. Playing chair, £650,000 of this pressure arose from the increased costs of putting contingents and measures in place to deliver the interim phase of the waste strategy. As members will be aware, in January we rolled out the new curbside collection service to collect blue black bags every three weeks, the new glass collection service and weekly collection of blue bags. This is a key part of our strategy to meet and exceed indeed the recycling target set by large government. We hired additional vehicles and agency staffing to minimize the disruption of missed collections as a consequence of this large-scale service change. As this was a new strategy, the resource was required for longer than initially planned. In addition, blue bag treatment costs are not reduced, following the major fire of the com recycling facility at Nantecaus, as you recall, three years ago. I'm glad to say that the service is now in a better position and that the planned multi-million-pound recycling plant development at Nantecaus for this Council to next year and for coming years. At this point, chair, it will be remiss to me not to thank the public for their positive response to improve recycling in general, starting, of course, in their own homes and their patients during the transitional period when they were inevitable tealing problems. More recycling means less costs on our authority under the Council taxpayers and less of our rubbish for future generations to deal with. If we turn back to the report chair, Appendix B on pages 34 and 35 list the main variant is per division. Appendix C on pages 36 to 38 provides detailed information on the different business units that make up the reported out-turn. The estimated capital out-turn on the 31st of December 2023 can be seen in Appendix D on page 39 with detailed information on the capital projects on pages 40 to 44. Appendix F on pages 45 and 46 lists the decarbonisation projects countywide and climate change response measures as it was in December last year. Appendix G on page 47 is the savings monitor report as it was in the last day of December

1. This report gives an analysis of the progress in delivering the proposed efficiencies for 2324. Of the total efficiencies of 1.6 million, which to be delivered in 2324, at the moment 1.1 million are considered to be deliverable with an unmet target of almost half a million pounds. The divisions will work towards achieving the efficiency during the remainder of the financial year or in 2425. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for that report. But I ask we did on the chairs and vice chair committee the last meeting asked the cabinet would get these reports sooner than later and to see we can as script any committees to help yourself on the cabinet because of the cutbacks that need to be done not known this year but the next three years. And I don't know if that is the camera that that's an important thing. If you're you know we are to help you wherever we can. One of the I've got here is car parking to do with on page the one on car parking you know the loss there. You know I noticed a machine in in in the cricket we're known for three or four days because we ask after we do we know when those machines don't work because in Canada we lose when the machines are down because I'm noticed that when you know that's maybe one area is there anything we can improve on on making sure the machines are working better because once it's down for three four five days you know that income is huge that we lose especially when there's us one thing I that I picked up yeah but I go through it now but I'll include you answer me about as the cabinet looked at this I've been these figures sooner than than it is now. Yeah you're correct this this question came up but at a scrotary meeting a meeting last week the leader was present and replied he said he is aware of the the timescale of obviously there is pressure and officers to prepare these figures but it is an issue like I already say it is an issue that that's the leader is aware of and is addressing that presence I'm afraid. You know if you can get them soon now we can help that you know the an alpinio with with these difficult decisions. Yes they are they are quarterly of course of the I know we're not today now we'll be talking December well as we may but I in the sun what you're saying yeah yeah thank you very well I'm gonna go through the report and then members can bring it anything up that they want to ask a cabinet member we're on page 33 34 yes vice-chair. It's regarding the departmental pooled vehicles we've got an over spend due to and utilization of the pool vehicles is there something I've having spoken in the previous report about the electrifying of the vehicles is that something that you're going to consider if we're not using the pool cars do we need them. So well spotted yep so we are actually undertaking a transformation project at the moment on staff travel and pool vehicles to understand where the needs are across every council building and every council service to looking at the hierarchy of reducing those vehicles moved in a mouse way to get greater utilization to to limit the over expenditure in this area. All right page 35 already brought up about the car but you know when you're looking at you want to bring that in now because I said about that. If I don't unfortunately have the specific target timescales for repair through our service level agreement with the car parking meter providers however we're looking to that for you. It'd be interesting to have some feedback on that either how do we improve that because if this is happening all over the place that that that'll be a huge income that we are losing on a daily basis but I you know I'm open to now for you to come back on it yeah yeah right sure on page 35 if there's anything there and we'll move on. I thought I was on page 34 but before we got back to 34 yeah yeah yeah. I was just going to say that there must be a system for booking the pool vehicles for officers to do that so if it's onerous in in some way or other it does put people off so I don't know what the system is so I just would like to raise that to make sure it's streamlined and easy to use and as for the dreaded parking meters it's about time we abolished them and used just some sort of card system on public toilets and on parking meters because they're extremely difficult to use. I've seen people down on their knees including myself because the sun reflects on the panel and the letters are so tiny I don't know about anyone with visual problems reads them so I think we should abolish the dreaded things I don't know if they are the app so our choice yes use the app more complexities right yeah so anyway are we in charge of parking meters do we choose them yeah or is it Welsh government well I'm not sure I suppose there's different types and I notice when I go on my travels there is you know every you know it seems remarkable quite a number of different ones you all come in yes so parking meters in our county car parks are at the at our directions so basically we've gone through a procurement process for them as beaten to the punch in terms suggesting the the potential use of the my permit app that we have in use across all our council car parks now I appreciate there are challenges for some individuals that to use that but as we go forward reviewing the accessibility of our parking meters when they need to be replaced we will definitely factor that into the replacement model for them great Neil do you want any on? No we haven't got there yet no we're not 35 we are now 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 there we are then go thank you Jack as a guardian of the Towy Valley in Abigaili obviously as we like to see ourselves in Abigaili I was intrigued at the Towy Valley path that it said that agreed land purchases due to be completed shortly is there any update on that further compassion I will feed back to you hopefully in the next week or so and that's okay yeah just a lot of people ask so yeah we'll get something out very shortly yeah thank you on that when I'm I'm concerned of fact there are orders the cost of you know the land purchasing and what it is now and when we started because I'm hearing that some of it's been doubled or treble you know by in that land so at that we were having that information in due course how that is because at the end of the day it is money that could have been spent somewhere else and that is concerned me because what I'm hearing I will say this is probably meeting I will go and into detail but it'd be interesting to know how much it's costing I mean well sadly chair for better of a worse it is not money that he missed out somewhere else because we are committed to the leveling up funding in this particular area so I'll finally the the truth is of course that we've the council has had to go through a lengthy compulsory purchase order process with hearings so that has drank things out quite a lot I am grateful to to done for saying that the report will be brought back on where we stand at this stage thank you right that's fine can I use the carat yeah to operate is coming up and it won't land in here please a lot of them are bringing in this look 24 to 25 we're coming we have already started a lot of these do we does Councillor Lenny have an idea if you can push the costs forward to another year but can you give us an idea how much of these costs I know there are different costs etc as we have in the Toby Valley path as you mentioned but I have almost lots of costs moving on to 24 to 25 do you have an idea how much you've pushed forward to this financial year as you can see the figures are before you there and we know exactly what the it will be because land you know well we have to go through a CPO then we will have a better idea as what the cost will be but you will know you will find out very soon but I'm talking in general as to what we've got before us there are a few pages here if we move forward slip to 24 to 25 in other words they've these costs have been pushed forward to another financial year it is good accounting but you know how much have we put forward to the next year a slippage like this is something that does happen naturally for better or worse between financial years it's you know over a lot of schemes and various for various reasons I can't give you detail on everyone but maybe the officers will have a better idea because it is an operational matter chair so every scheme that hasn't been able to finish in 23 24 we were slipping the capital budget on 24 25 so any schemes that have the budget slip forward then would have not against it so it's whatever you mentioned counting up two million there so it's whatever those schemes that have been notified us slipping forward then all right sorry I'm being a bit lazy I saw them all there and I didn't want to pull my calculator up and count it all up I was just wondering how much rather it was a very significant value compared with a budget as well so being lazy was like I can't you know probably should go back home now and get the calculator up and count to many of us all right page 45 46 oh sorry sorry I missed 44 there so one back 44 then yeah on a similar vein I noticed the refit summary and decab as as significantly missed it spending in 23 24 I just wondered because that's a cost saving exercise and obviously decarbonization exercise oh and if there's any value put in more stuff onto that or improve increasing our deployment of end-sufficiency and decarbonization on refit come real I know some very good people on board already but whether we did extra hands on on to deliver on the on the year that we're doing it thank you I know I'll feed that back to the relevant department for that but I want to get everything right right 45 46 47 like 46 yeah thank you and on a similar vein this business is brought for renewable energy and and we're as comes energy we work in around the county and a lot of businesses don't seem to know about it the grants that are available so I just wondered how much work was going on with promoting these grants across the county and obviously there are also low interest loans available for energy saving and tax breaks so I think we need to do more work in promoting that idea thank you okay get up with our media department get things out then on Facebook and and say that these are available that'd be worth it yeah yeah I'm busy in that I'm happy to do that I know that a lot of promotion of this has taken place where some companies think it's suitable for them or not I can definitely have a word with marketing and media to see if we can push this again and it's important that we decarbonize the whole county it's an opportunity a significant opportunity yes that up then on 47 and then we're on 48 with a by chat page 48 there's quite a significant variance due to difficulties in procurement of a second camera car obviously it's very we know that it's very good in catching fines so is there any further update on procuring our second car yeah because yeah couldn't be a good point yeah I've got a nightmare outside my own school because and I brought it up about legal parking on zigzag lines and all that we must get the second pool car to catch these people because I got a photo of five cars parked outside on zigzag lines now they think that it's just people can do whatever they're like we've got to catch these people because they are putting out children at risk and it's not only in a school where I represent but all across the county so I can this be a top priority because I've had the last couple of weeks you know the public have really up in arms because we are not enforcing zigzag lines in particular because people are parking willingly on them all the time and we need to catch the same ones and it's the same ones that we need all the time you know so I support what the vice chair has said yeah and somebody coming on that one because it is a big problem if people are causing obstructions when parking or they're on the pavement or something but that is a matter for the police but I do completely agree with you that it is unfortunate that this demand is in many areas outside of schools and I hope that the department will be able to move ahead with this but of course the issue is with the company that provides these kind of cars I will ask more about this to see if we are able to go ahead and if the situation changes one of the officers would be able to bring us an update on it. Dan yeah I'm pleased to report the new chemical has been delivered so yeah let's have a photo of it and let's say it's coming around I'm going to meet your areas make sure Ghana is the first one they go up because I think that that is definitely is doing and these people need to be caught because they are as they say they putting out children are live at risk by doing it and they don't care about children coming out of school and that really drives me wild you know me I'm sorry and I'm glad the vice chair has brought us up today it is important matter but it's good news that we need to put that out there now that this fund is now come so that's good news good news I can reassure you it's an EV vehicle as well yeah we're like what news is fun you know that's good news anyway I'm pleased with that despite everything was worth being here this morning yeah yeah yeah right we're moving on then 48 49 anything else with members 49 I'll have it on 50 and I'm 50 152 53 that's it then everybody happy there's been a good discussion so we can finally move the correct move that except the report they have Neil and Gareth all in favor right yeah I'm gonna see him on that right all that right anybody against no abstentions that's enormous right thank you very much that's not that and then we move on then to sign the correct record of the minutes held on the lamp to march on the 22nd and march and somebody move second but you won in the second one that Neil right everybody happy with the minutes all in favor of the minutes anybody against abstentions you know one that I and yourself because you won the second one you're by child abstains and the second one right that's carried and that's it the next meeting of this committee will be on on the 6th of June 2024 and I don't declare the meeting closed thank you Joachim al-Rigid thank you