Transcript

Good evening. Apologies for the slight late starting. Welcome to this meeting of the licensing subcommittee which is being held as a hybrid meeting. This meeting will be webcast so please bear with us if there are any technical issues. My name is Councillor McLeod and I'm chairing this meeting. I now invite the other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order. Councillor Burchill. Good evening everybody. Good evening, Councillor French present. Thank you. We also have a number of officers present who will introduce themselves as and when they are requested and the applicant is here and is appearing remotely and in the room. Thank you for your time and for journeying in. We have three objectors to this application. Okay, so agenda items one and two. Are there any apologies for absence or declarations of interest for any items on this agenda? No. Thank you. We will now consider the application for a new premises license in respect of the premises known as Ground Coffee Society which is 79 Lower Richmond Road, SW15 1ET. I now invite the licensing manager to introduce this application. Thank you, chair. I'm Caroline Sharkey and I'll be presenting the application to you tonight. This is a premises license application submitted by Ground Coffee Roasters Limited and the location is at 79 Lower Richmond Road which is located in Thamesfield Ward. This is a new business chair. There's never been a premises license at this site. The accessible activities that the applicant has applied for initially were for the sale of alcohol for consumption on and off the premises starting at 7 a.m. to 11.30 p.m. seven days a week and the opening times were 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. Monday to Sunday, the seven days a week. This application chair was advertised as required under the Licensing Act and this resulted in representations. The first representation from the responsible authority was from the police whom all raised concerns that granting the application in its current form would undermine the prevention of crime and disorder as licensing objective. The police requested extra conditions to be added to the license if it were to be granted. The applicant agreed the proposed conditions that the police put forward and consequently the police withdrew their representation. During the consultation period, Chair, we also received an objection from the environmental health officers from the noise and nuisance team who raised concern that the sale of alcohol starting at 7 a.m. was too early and it would probably cause a public nuisance within the vicinity of the premises and they requested that the sale of alcohol to commence at 10 a.m. and the finishing time to remain this as proposed 11.30 p.m. Monday to Sunday and the applicant agreed to this. Consequently, the noise and nuisance officer withdrew their representation. We also received concerns from trading standards who raised concerns about measures to prevent children from harm and proposed some more new extra conditions if the license were to be granted. They were put forward before the applicant and the applicant agreed to the conditions proposed by trading standard and consequently trading standards withdrew their representation. So the matter that the committee have tonight to consider is the representations that were received from other persons. We received 14 representations in total share against the applications. The application and the concerns were raised relating to public nuisance being undermined if this license were to be granted. In particular, noise from customers in the residential areas, customers dropping litter bottle caps on the streets, in residents beans, sand from leakage from the premises, especially in the garden which has a reductible roof. Those were 14 representations that raised those concerns but we also received one representation chair in support of the application. No other representations were received from other responsible authorities. Copies of the representations received were forwarded to the applicant and are made available to the subcommittee tonight. The applicant as volunteers measure in the operating schedule of the application to promote the licensing objectives if this license were to be granted. The measures proposed chair are listed in Appendix A of the committee report. These also include those agreed additional conditions from the police, environmental health, noise and nuisance team and trading standards. These are produced on pages 7 and 8 of the agenda. The licensing subcommittee may modify these conditions if they consider such steps appropriate after hearing all the evidence tonight. So the subcommittee tonight must take the following steps as they consider appropriate for promoting the licensing objectives and these are either to grant the application, modify the conditions if the subcommittee are minded to grant the license or reject the license altogether. This is the application as I understand it chair. I'm happy to answer any questions or points of clarification at this stage. Thank you. Thank you very much Ms. Sharkey. So to the committee do you have any questions for the licensing manager? Not at this moment. Yes please chair. Ms. Sharkey you mentioned the noise and this is I think something that most of the complainers are, the objectors are complaining about. You only talk about the noise that customers will be asked to be quiet when they're leaving. What about thinking about the noise that's going to be escaping from the building, particularly the garden? Thank you Councillor. If I can just clarify I think that question will be to the applicant because the applicant has proposed that measure in the application to prevent public nuisance but it may be through questioning the applicant they might provide you their justification for putting that forward or they might probably put something additional that you might go away and consider. I don't know whether that helps chair. Thank you. Thank you. Yes it does. Any other question Councillor? No. Okay. Thank you Ms. Sharkey. I now am going to invite the applicants, I'm now going to invite the applicant to speak to us. I can see you there online. Are you able to switch on? Yeah okay so I'm going to give you five minutes. What you've obviously read or what some of the objectors have said and you've heard the issues that both the police and noise and all that and you've addressed some of those. But if you could talk to us for five minutes about why you want this application and address some of those concerns maybe that your neighbours will have. Yeah absolutely. Hi I'm Chris. I'm putting the application on behalf of Ground Coffee Society. I also have an attendance with me. I'm the owner of Ground Coffee Society. David. Hello. So we'd just like to say that previously the license, the premises had a license which lapsed and hence why we are applying for a new license. I accept some of the concerns raised by the neighbourhood and so I'd like to start by saying that I'm happy to propose changing the hours of the license to reflect our business operating hours as they stand. So we are a cafe that opens at 7am in the morning and we close at 4pm in the afternoon. The reason we were reapplying for this license was essentially to sell some off trade beers on our retail shelves so to go alongside the retail section we have for Australian and New Zealand treats. We'd also like to sell some beers with that for customers to take away and then we'd also like to potentially offer something like a Prosecco breakfast on a Sunday from 10am Prosecco brunch and so we'd like the opportunity to be able to serve Prosecco with that brunch offering. So we're not looking to open a late night establishment. We're not looking for anything to run later than 5pm in the evening because we totally appreciate that there are neighbours and families living on the streets so we're not looking to add to any more late night venues around the area. We'd just like to be able to offer our current customers with like I said some takeaway beer options to complement our retail shelf and a Prosecco brunch on a Sunday should it be a nice summer's day. I'd also like to refer to David to add a little bit more as the owner of the cafe. Hi everyone, I'll just second what Chris has said. I've owned this cafe since 2009. I was the founder of this coffee shop. I actually sold the cafe in 2019 and then the people who I sold it to went out of business so they went to Liquidation after a couple of years and the landlord, me as the founder of the coffee shop in the area, offered the premises back to me which I took it. At the time we chose not to renew the license which as Chris said it had lapsed and everything that Chris has said I second. We do not intend to open a late night establishment. I live in the area. My own kids go to St Mary's school at the end of the street so we're very much a part of the community. Obviously St Mary's school being the closest school in the area like I said that my own kids attend. We've got a lot of close relationships, me personally with a lot of people on the streets. Most of the street are customers of the coffee shop anyway daily and like Chris said we just want to sell some gimmick Australian beers where we have a large Australian New Zealand antipathy and customer base and we buy chocolate biscuits and sweets and treats from New Zealand and it would be nice to complement a New Zealand beer or an Australian beer as a retail option. Not particularly for consumption on site because we're not going to be a drinking establishment. We are a coffee shop and we're going to remain a coffee shop. That's really our response to everybody on the street that had the concerns you know. Thank you I wasn't sure where we were on time. Thank you both that's appreciated. I know you'll have stuff that you want to say. What we'll do first is the committee will ask some questions. If there's anything specific about that you don't understand about the application then that's your time when you can ask the applicant a couple of questions but that's not really the time where you'll present your case if you so I mean you'll have time for that afterwards it's just for anything that you're not sort of clear about. So over to the committee, Councillor French. Good afternoon thank you Chris and David. So if you have no intentions for this to be a drinking establishment late into the night would you be amenable just to ask for a change of hours because the license goes to 1130. Can you just reiterate what time your operating hours are? Our cafe operating hours are 7 a.m. till 4 p.m. so we would be happy to amend the licensing hours to reflect our cafe operating hours. Okay and that the licenses you would want from 7 but we've said I think it would be for from 10 a.m. yes yes I was advised that we would need special dispensation to consume alcohol on the premises before 10 a.m. so I'm more than happy to adhere to the sale of takeaway alcohol pre 7 a.m. and consumption on site from 10 a.m. is recommended by oh I can't remember who recommended it sorry through to 4 p.m. okay thank you. Thank you I'm gonna go to Guy Bishop our legal expert. One second Guy. Can you hear me? We can. Good. So yeah it was really clarification related to the hours just so that the committee is fully clear on what it is that the application now is. The original application was 7 to

1. Your change is to do alcohol from 7 to 4 p.m. or is it 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.? So consumption on site 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. on site 10 to 4 and can sale of alcohol as an off license from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m. 7 to 4 brilliant okay and then opening 7 to 4 as well. Yes. Okay great thank you very much sorry I thought it was sensible to clarify that. Much appreciated. Thank you. Ms. Sharkey. Yeah I just wanted to to to endorse that because those are the consumption on those are the hours that the applicant agreed with the environmental services officer from 10 a.m. to 11 p.m. so. Sorry I'm not sure that I understood that. Can you can you say it again? Sorry chair I just wanted to clarify with the applicant that the applicant did agree with the noise and nuisance officer from environmental health section that consumption of alcohol was going to be from 10 a.m. to 1130 p.m. and I just wanted to flag that up chair. Sorry is that on or off or both? It says provision for on sales to commence from 10 a.m. to 11 p.m. so that follows with what's already been said in terms of on site or on sales 10 off sales 7. Okay yeah but but I'm unless I'm confused the the the stop time has still changed in it which is a big difference from masking to go until 1130 to only asking to go until 4 p.m. so for clarity what we're talking about now today is whether is is is is is 4 p.m. yeah right okay good thank you that that's that's useful okay thank you. So back to the committee Councillor Burchill. Yes I could you tell me why you asked to be able to sell alcohol until 1130 at night when you're a coffee shop and were you intending to be something else and then when you saw the objections you thought well maybe we'll just stick to coffee shop and do Prosecco Sunday brunches. I mean I I can't understand what your core business is and if a core business is a coffee shop why were you asking for 1130 so were you wanting to change what your core business was or you know have you I I don't really understand what was going on now. Okay no no worries that was a I was when I first applied we were also thinking of holding temporary events from time to time and so I was advised to apply for a license a full license to cover a full day but we were never intending to change our our business model which is the cafe so upon hearing the concerns of the neighbourhood we we want to make sure that we we don't because we're not changing from our core business which is the cafe it was probably a misunderstanding on my part that I thought I would need a full license even though I was only holding the occasional temporary evening event but that that if the if the community would prefer us to not have anything in the evening we are more than happy to adhere to those conditions and just have our license based around our core business of a cafe. Thank you. Councillor French. Thank you chair. In regards to background Chris can you just clarify your role within the organisation please? I know you're the applicant for the license just and that's that's completely that's acceptable just to understand the mechanics and the organisation organisational structure of the coffee shop so yeah where do you sit in that sir? I am I'm second to the owner I'm head of the events business as well and I am one of the managers there. So can I just when you say second is that deputy assistant manager just just for clarity? It's second in command to the to the owner. I'm not quite sure what you would what you'd what you'd phrase that and then I'm also one of the cafe managers. Thank you. Councillors, Councillor Mitchell. Okay I think I've got a couple maybe it's well it'll be useful because I to be honest I'm kind of eager to get to the residents because I think that the changes you've made are quite substantial and I think that that it kind of changes the whole thing that we're looking at here but but but so but but one of the things I want to understand is you talk about just selling sort of novelty beer this doesn't it feels like maybe maybe this is maybe this is where I'm getting stuck it feels like quite a small thing that you're trying to do if you're only sending a couple of beers and you don't really mind whether you sell them in the evening or not and you're not going to be doing this you're not going to be doing that you're not going to be having a big impact why go through all the trouble of applying them what what's the purpose of what you're applying for I'm trying to understand what you what you get from this if you see what I mean. So part of our part of our cafe is we have a big antipodean culture and we've had lots of requests to add to our retail shelf to add some beers that people can't get in the UK very easily so we wanted to provide something for a lot of our customers and it's the the antipodean culture is quite a strong basis for our cafe so we wanted to be able to provide that and so we wanted to provide it the right way by not just throwing them on the shelves we wanted to make sure we went through the right channels to do that so it's it's not we're not yeah like I said we're not trying to be a bar but it's something that we think adds value to our cafe and is part of our our makeups to add those to our retail option. Thank you that's helpful. Mr Bishop. Yes sorry to ask another question but it's more clarification it's relation to the hours that we've discussed already and I should have asked before I'm sorry Chris. You have in the hours section of your operating schedule the reference to 12 annual unspecified events that start at six and end at one in the morning. Are those still something you're applying for or is that no longer the case in terms of the hours obviously you've talked about so far? Again that was that was a piece of advice I was given when I was first putting the application together so there was a bit of unsureness on my part. We would potentially like to hold some events at some point but I think from what I've researched further we would apply for temporary events and go down that route rather than having the 12 events so we're happy to scrap that from our our main application. Thank you that's helpful and I was gonna I was gonna say the purpose of the temporary event notices is exactly that and they give us more you know if there's if there's been a problem with the establishment it gives us more flexibility to to say yes or no to those events whereas you applying for them now you know when you haven't been running anything is a lot harder to adjudicate on. I'm looking back at the committee to see if there are any more questions. No for now I'm now I'm so I'm I now invite the objectors this isn't your this isn't your chance to sort of say why you why your issues with your chance to ask any clarification questions because I think things have changed a bit so you might need to understand what it is you're objecting to. Do you have any? I'm sorry if you could. The events here would be a problem. I mean I think it's fine to if it all stops at four o'clock in the afternoon I mean you know we're not miserable we want people have fun but as long as the 1130 is definitely off the cards because the as as you have seen in the objections there are a lot of young families. I myself get up to go to work at quarter to six so it's you know I can't be doing with and the fact that the retractable roof I mean the noise because we did have they did have a license before as they were saying which lapsed but that caused total grief in the road I don't know whether you were here then but it was appalling and we are not miserable people. I I wouldn't for a minute think you were oh sorry thank you I wouldn't for a minute think you were that's I know I understand completely I suppose this is more well those as I believe will be taken off the table that they're not going to be applied for indeed yeah but do you have any any sort of any other clarification questions maybe for the applicant? Hi no I don't think I do I think I'm quite clear that the hours have now changed from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. with regards to temporary event licenses I would also object to those because I think having something go on going on potentially even if it's just once a month till 1 p.m. in the morning is completely inappropriate in a small residential street so I would still object to those if they do apply for these temporary event licenses do we also do we how do we know about that in advance? It's a very good question I'm looking at Caroline thank you. Thank you chair and I'm sure the legal advisor may add more comments in the advice I'm going to provide. The temporary event notices when they when we receive them chair it's only the police and environmental health noise and uses team who can object to the temporary event notices but what we do advise residents if they are being impacted by noise to contact environmental health section in the first instance because they do have an out of our service they can come out and interact with the operator the manager and look to resolve the problem at the time and then they will collect that information and log it on the premises record so that in future if the operator puts in another 10 they will be able to look at the complaints received and then look to object any further terms that's how the system works in terms of temporary event notices. Thank you can I just say we definitely not having any temporary sorry it's okay go ahead just want to clarify about this temporary evening license. So for clarity that's not part of this application now anyway yeah the applicants agreed to what they had wanted was 12 specific events throughout the year they've agreed to not to scrap that completely they've also changed sorry yes they've taken those off but what I guess the point that Mushaki was making clear was that that any anyone you don't even have to have a friend you can apply for a temporary event license and really it's normally only the police and noise because they're quite quick turnaround things normally it's normally only the police and environmental health who are informed but if an event like that was held and there were any problems then you should immediately contact environmental health and then it's logged and so I suppose the problem is the difficulty you might see is that one event would be likely to go ahead because there'd be no reason for it not to until you guys had a problem with that event and then the next one will be less likely to go ahead so it's I suppose the deficit is that you can't really complain in advance but then from a business owners point of view they say we haven't done anything wrong yet so why would anyone want to complain does that make sense okay Chris sorry I'll come back to you that's okay do you would you like to we were just going to respond to the temporary the situation of temporary events very quickly I think that was already answered I think we have no intention of having any events till 1am in the morning and you know like I said I'm a I'm a local as well and and I'm sorry we're back we're back yes I don't know how much of that you heard but yeah we're trying to show the guys on the street we have no intention of having any events till 1am in the morning apologies that was a poor piece of advice that I was given when I was first applying so I apologize for that thank you thank you that's helpful hopefully this is going to work I just had a few questions if I can to clarify your application are you aware that there have been noise complaints and Wandsworth council have been out on a number of occasions already yes I can answer that I think the the company or the the individual that I sold the business to their business model was different to firstly what I started in 2009 their business model was to be a drinking establishment and I believe that there was well I am aware that there was complaints because you know I heard about them from friends in the community that you know obviously saying well this guy you've sold the business to is causing a problem so but that's that wasn't asked as a business that was the company that started when I sold it and then went bust so it wasn't us I just wanted to clarify that as well thank you okay and I think in your application you have a request for a new year's eve all night party it looks like again that was a piece of advice that I was I was given to put in the application and I'm happy to remove that one of my other questions might be to a legal advisor because I think how I can speak for a lot of the residents hearing the change in the application there is confusion as to why the application was put in and even the new year's eve it seems surprising that that could ever have been rational advice that one would have taken so really what I'm wondering is if a license is granted for short hours is that a springboard for a renewed application for longer hours is that a question for me or a question for you well I guess both but mainly legally if you know because you wouldn't want it so well there's they serve alcohol already so by creep yes I can ask I can ask that relatively easily I would have thought shall I go ahead chair I'm sorry yes please Mr Bishop yes I'll see you there you are that's okay yes so if the if this application is granted on these terms I 7 o'clock until 4 p.m. etc etc then obviously that would be a premises license which would have those conditions and those hours set on it to amend it in any way die to increase the hours they would have to come back to the committee with a variation application they would have to do that because it would involve a change to the alcohol side of things and therefore they couldn't use a minor variation I won't explain with that about that but basically they'd have to do a full variation and to do that you would you would be notified and the notices and adverts and website would display that you go through the same process that we're going through here so effectively if they were to apply for that variation to increase hours then you would know about it and have the opportunity to respond and obviously speak like you are tonight is that is that helpful yeah I think it's worth reiterating it's not a it's not a sort of licensing by by stealth the what what they what what they're applying for is what they apply for now I guess how it could work in their favors if they run it beautifully and everything's wonderful and then they at some point ask for an extension you might feel less object you know you might feel less against it because you get used to them and you think they're really good so that's that's more likely the route it's not they don't get any any sort of stepping stone effect though from it I'm just trying to work out the original application sure yeah maybe I can't indeed the premises license if granted would be the hours and conditions and that would be it until then if it was very there would be no change otherwise unless of course they got a temporary notice but we've already discussed that thank you we've kind of gone a little bit free flow on on on how we were going to run things but that's that's sort of okay there's still now I've still now got your your time to speak you know to give your case against this application but I thought it was worth really getting into those changes before you did that because I think you know because it might well change your opinion now I'm not sure how you want to do this in theory you have sort of five minutes each but what could then happen is it ends up being very repetitive and you end up saying the same thing for three times do you have is there someone that enjoys speaking a little bit more I can certainly take the lead thank you the ladies can add in anything can I miss out well I'm really grateful for the change to the application I think that meets most of our worries you know we're all very supportive of the coffee shop and as the gentleman said we're in there almost daily in any event so we wouldn't want to do anything to harm their core business so I guess I want to start with that and say I'm sure we're all very relieved just thinking on our feet because obviously we've been slightly surprised by the change there are a couple of I guess conditions potentially that might be relevant so there's an outside space to the side of the building on white road itself and sometimes they have in the past put chairs and tables there so I think there's a there's a few out front and then there's the space along the pavement and obviously anybody having Prosecco lunches there would feel like that they might as well be having Prosecco lunch in my garden because it's and also it would be it would take up a lot of the pavement so I just wanted to flag that and then secondly with the pagoda I looked at the planning application I don't really understand planning applications but I couldn't see any limit or any concerns raised about potential noise from that and it looks fantastic but it it is incredibly intrusive when that is open and when the back door is opened so I think what we'd say is if the license is granted when it when they are serving alcohol we would ask or I would ask for the roof to be closed because a Prosecco lunch at whatever time of day is going to be a bit more noisy a bit more lively and I wouldn't want to stop that but I would stop it from happening so intrusively where my actual house is so when the roof's off they are just one house away from my house and I've got small children and I work ludicrous hours sometimes and in the past I've turned up in my pajamas at the coffee shop because it felt like having a party in my house particularly with one occasion they had live music and the lady with the microphone I think the the street was appreciative of her her talent but rather put out by the fact it was foist on us so I think on I think that would be my my request that the pagoda roof be closed if they're serving alcohol and then you know then the noise will be more contained it's obviously not a brick roof or a solid roof but it will be more contained if the pagoda roof is on top so I think that they will be my key comments thank you I invite either of you if you had any if you have anything to add to those anything to add if we're just talking about you know serving alcohol between ten to four then I don't really have an objection to that and just to ask them to to you know just bear in mind you know that you know it does it does impact our lives a little bit we're happy for that to go ahead but anything further I think we'd find a bit too much yeah I would agree with that and but I do it is very vivid in my memory what happened before but if it's not going to be till 11 30 that's fine thank you I think it's worth clarifying both I'm from my understanding both the incident you're talking about and that was in this other ownership period I think I just want to just work yes it was and it's when they were holding evening events which sometimes needs to go on to about 11 30 which but as I say this is for the purpose of this that's completely different organization we're not we're not they can't be blamed basically for something else I don't know what the changeover was so I understand yeah thank you and we also have a yeah the the resident who's online whose name Sybil yes hi Sybil Sybil here yes actually I'm just supporting what has been said by my neighbors in the room I don't have any objections with these new hours and and the limitations that's good to hear and thank you and thank you for joining us as well Sybil okay thank you okay then in I can see I can see that the yeah I can see the applicant has his hand up but before I before I go to you because I imagine you want to respond to a couple of the the questions that were asked there does anyone in the committee have questions for for the objectors you do raise me one second just a quick one do you have any objection to noise that the coffee shop at the moment is producing when they're not serving alcohol no I mean it is it is noisy but it's part of our lives you know in the early morning and you know we're all customers and we all really appreciate the the coffee shop there as it is so you know it is what it is and we're just used to it yeah yeah it's yes yeah it's the cyclists and that's nothing to do with the owners they're so they're so successful that the that's slightly beyond our reach we can't yeah okay so uh over to you Chris and respond to the uh no look um yeah look I appreciate everyone's concerns everyone's you know and like everyone says you know it was the previous owners I think where the where all the concerns seem to lie with the previous owners um you know that I think we're very grateful for all the street supporting our business you know I've had it for 15 years I started that business when I was 26 years old and you know it is very successful and you know my kids have grown up in there and I know a lot of people on the street and you know it's a lovely community and um you know we're very proud to be a part of it and we're very proud to have built such a community in in such a great place so I appreciate the support and and I'm glad that you know everyone is happy and kind of agreeing to our change of terms and good that we can all come to a a nice mutual agreement here I think uh thanks thank you uh okay so I think we're we're done I think everyone's asked the questions they need to ask everyone said the things that they need to say um I just wondered if they wanted to respond to my two suggested conditions thing about the um pagoda yeah and the outside space yeah I'm I'm right yeah look I I think I think given given the fact that we're we're closing at 4 p.m um you know I think on a on a summer's day I really disagree with the fact that a glass of prosecco would increase the volume um you know we are not a booze establishment like I said you know we we rarely sell hardly any alcohol we did have an alcohol license when I operated the the business from 2009 to 2019 um and we were closed back then our hours were closed at 6 p.m and there was no difference we hardly sell any alcohol so I I don't I don't agree with the fact that there would be an increase in volume if someone's having a glass of prosecco with their eggs meditate okay thank you um indeed okay so so thank you and that this now concludes this part of the meeting um the decisions and any legal guidance given during the subcommittee's decision uh that's informed the decision will be confirmed in writing together with any information about any rights of appeal within five working days um and I thank you for giving up time that you didn't need to give up to come in here so that's appreciated everybody and to those online as well thank you very much we appreciate it yeah thanks guys thank you okay thank you okay thank you you you you you you you you you [BLANK_AUDIO]