Transcript

Good evening everybody. Welcome to the licensing committee of Test Valley Borough Council on Thursday 30th May. Oh sorry. It's pointless voting for the audio stream if I don't put the speaker on, wasn't it? Welcome to the licensing committee meeting of Test Valley Borough Council on Thursday 30th May. My name is Chris Donnelly, I'm the chairman. To my left on the table here we have Karen Dunn, our legal officer. Next to me on my left is Sally Prior from Democratic Services and to my right is Michael White who is our licensing manager. We'll begin with apologies. Do we have any apologies this evening? Yes I have apologies from Councillors Pidsinski, Cooper, Dunleavy, Ford and Matthews Mr Chairman. Lovely, thank you very much indeed. Is there any public participation? There is none Mr Chairman. Thank you very much. Item 3, declarations of interest. Does anybody have any declarations of interest which they'd like to make? No, I see none. Item 4, urgent items. Do we have any? There are none Mr Chairman. Lovely, thank you very much. Item 5, minutes of the previous meetings have you all had sight of these in your bundles? Are you, can I, if you're happy that they are an accurate record could I have a proposer and a seconder please? Councillor Phil Ashfield to the polls, Councillor Ryers Anderson to second. All in favour that they are correct? Yep. You can't vote for that one. Oh right, okay, no problem that's fine. In which case that's almost unanimous if that's not the same thing to say. Perfect. Agenda item 6 which is a sort of Santa business this evening is the licensing summary 2023/24 to provide a summary of the licenses and associated activity which Mr White will lead us through. Thank you Chair. Chair I guess the members who were on the committee a year ago may recall that for the first time last year we introduced this summary report. Partly as a suggestion from yourself actually. I am acutely aware that the licensing committee does not meet particularly regularly and I wouldn't want members of this committee or indeed anybody else for that matter to think that that doesn't mean that nothing is happening on the licensing front far from it and I think that the summary report is hopefully provides a useful snapshot to members of this committee of activity over the previous time of months and as this is now the second year that we have produced this report as you see we are able to undertake some sort of comparison with the previous report. So I would draw members' attention to the annex on the final page of the agenda documents where I concentrate on the sort of main areas of licensing that we deal with. Starting with Licensing Act 2003 which addresses the licensing of alcohol, regulated entertainment and late night refreshments. You can see the numbers there. A slight reduction apart from personal licenses in the number of premises that we have licensed. I don't believe that there is any particular trend behind that. Those figures do sort of ebb and flow over the years and as I say I don't think there's any particular reason for that. Having said that this main meeting does not meet frequently as I've mentioned there during the financial year 23/24 there were in fact four licensing subcommittee meetings. Most recent one of those in November are the minutes for that to appear in this bundle and you will see as I mentioned there the decision of the subcommittee has subsequently been appealed and will go before the Magistrate's Court in July for them to determine that matter. So we await the outcome. That will be pressed and obviously Chair I will ensure that the result of that is reported to the committee. We have a reduction in the number of scrap metal dealer licenses that we deal with. Members who have been on this committee a while may recall that scrap metal dealer licensing is a slight oddity in that when the legislation was introduced because the function regulations weren't changed it is actually an executive function of the council and so matters relating to scrap metal dealer licensing did not come before this committee. I wouldn't need to take them to cabinet if there were any changes needed however because it falls under the general remit of the work undertaken in my team I felt it was helpful to include that information. Moving on to Gambling Act 2005 Chair no change in the number of licensed gambling premises that we have in the borough which is at the lowest that it has been since the legislation was introduced. I would just make a point Chairman that we are required to review our Gambling Act policy and a consultation on that will be starting very shortly and all members of council will receive an email from me regarding that. Finally Chairman coming on to Taxis which I have to say is probably the one area of licensing work that keeps us particularly busy from the day to day aspect. Again a bit of a mixed picture there. We've actually had a couple of hand carriages that the licenses have been returned however we do see an overall increase in the number of prior vehicles and licensed drivers. Chairman again perhaps the members that have read the last licensing committee meeting held in November will be aware that we are undertaking a review of our taxi licensing policy. I did run a report in November, the committee discussed that, asked for some additional information on a couple of areas, namely wanted me to look more specifically at the provision of hand carriage licenses or the use of hand carriages particularly for disabled persons and also the committee was keen that for our proposed Code of Conduct that we undertake some consultation with that. We have been undertaking public consultation, that consultation closes for both of those two issues, closes next month and obviously once that consultation is closed we will be gathering together the information we would be able to bring a further report to this committee. I can't say exactly when yet, I think after this meeting, the next meeting in this committee is August, it probably won't be that meeting but I would very much hope that it would be the meeting after that. I think those are the main points I wanted to make that I am of course very happy to answer any questions that the committee has on information I have represented or indeed on anything that they feel I have overlooked. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. Are there any questions? Looking at the collector's license, are they published anywhere because frequently people put on Facebook and Reddit or the media that they are going to collect and it would be nice if we could say they are not on our list. The problem with scrap metal dealer licensing is another oddity, I mentioned about the fact that it is an executive function. A further oddity is that local authorities such as us are responsible for scrap metal dealer licensing, however the requirement to publish and maintain a register of scrap metal dealers is the responsibility of the environment agency. So I have to pass information to them and the register if you wanted to check that somebody was a licensed scrap metal dealer then ideally what we are supposed to do is go to the environment agency website. That said obviously we hold the information and we are very happy to provide information to the public who have any concerns. We have with colleagues from the communications team last year, we did run a little campaign on social media alerting the public to the fact that if they have scrap metal that they are getting rid of they should ensure that they are using a licensed scrap metal dealer. To what extent the public take account of that. I suspect sadly there will be some people that are always looking to cut corners and they don't really care who is coming along to collect their old washing machine or whatever it may be. But we do try and address that. It is a difficult area, I have had complaints in the past about unlicensed dealers. I have to say that has fallen off in probably at least the last six months. I would have thought that largely as a result of the initiative we introduced last year was the any mobile collectors that we licensed. We now issue them with a plate, very similar to a sort of taxi plate that they can fix to their vehicle to clearly show that they are licensed buyers and part of the social media campaign that we understood last year mentioned this and pointed out to the public and in fact a number of licensed scrap metal dealers did come back to us and congratulate us on introducing that and say that they thought that was a really positive step by the council. But you will see the numbers have reduced. I think that is a reflection of the fact that the scrap metal dealer licensing when it was introduced back in 2013 that was the Act. It was introduced at the time because obviously there were significant problems with theft of metal driven by the global price and demand for metal. I think that has tailed off over the years and so consequently I think that collecting scrap metal is perhaps not as lucrative as it was perhaps five or ten years ago and the figures that we have reflect that. Just one other thing. The betting offices, there's only five in Test Valley. I think there's four in Annover. That's correct, yes. Four in Annover and one in Robson. They used to be more than that. They did, yes. The number of betting offices has reduced significantly over the years and again I think that's a reflection of a national trend. Obviously there was a significant increase in online gambling which local authorities are not responsible for regulating. That responsibility rests with the gambling commission. Thank you very much. A point of interest I suppose is that when we look at our taxis we have an increase of 29 private hire vehicles as opposed to a reduction of two taxis which is quite interesting how private hire licenses are really picking up but the taxis aren't. Yes. I think obviously the significant difference is that the hand carriage and for those members of the committee who are aware of this but for those who are not, the main difference of course is it can be held in the streets, it can ply for hire from a rank. That said, we are not London. In London everybody used to stand by the side of the road inhaling a black cab. That is not the sort of activity that you see certainly outside of the major conurbations. And so really the only advantage in Hackney Couches is that they are able to ply for hire from a rank and in all honesty Chair, in Tass Valley that means ply for hire from the rank outside and over rail station. And they do have other ranks in the town centre. The evening's rank outside Chickalanda at the bottom of London Street is probably going to get some trade but as I say that is evenings only. A little bit of trade perhaps from the rank in Bridge Street but otherwise it is mainly outside the station. And of course one of the issues you have there is that Southwestern Rail is to charge, I'm not sure how much but they do charge a reasonable sum for those taxi providers that wish to make use of that rank. And so you know you have to say what is the sort of financial advantage in going for a Hackney Carriage. And obviously private hire vehicles and the usage of them I would suggest is much more common since the emergence of right hanging apps such as Uber. Again we don't have an Uber licensed as an operator in Tass Valley but people get used to using those even the bigger operators in Tass Valley. Alpha Cars in Hello for instance has their own app, people get used to booking vehicles through that. So whilst practically we went back 10-20 years, Hackney Carriages, everybody wanted to have a Hackney Carriage, really that demand is falling away and I suspect will gradually do so over the coming years. Obviously that is a concern when it comes to servicing the needs of people who come out of the railway station, they want to know that a vehicle is there waiting for them. So I think that is largely a reflection of what is happening nationally with the change in the taxi trade and that often is the issue for us here in Tass Valley is that we don't have the sort of significant problems that other parts of the country do but nonetheless we do have to be aware of what is happening nationally and often we have to react to what is happening nationally otherwise we are in danger of being seen perhaps as easy pickings or I would suggest as sort of less scrupulous members of the trade who think oh well we'll come and get licensed with Tass Valley because they don't have the same restrictions or requirements as other councils. So yeah it is very much taking account of what is happening nationally. There's always been an element of the taxi trade that has specialised in just sort of the way that the government has been doing it and I think that is a very important element of the taxi trade. I think that is a very important element of the taxi trade. I think that is a very important element of the taxi trade. I think that is a very important element of the taxi trade. I know you've just spoken about having the apps on your phone and what you do is you dial the number and the taxi always lets you know the registration and everything like that. I don't know if you're aware but recently over these last couple of weekends there have been a couple of people that have said to different women 'we're a taxi, you can come and have an art taxi and we're all okay'. I was just wondering if there's any way we can combat that at all because obviously some people don't have mobile phones that have these apps, they've just got a ordinary mobile phone. Is there any way more that we can precisely put on a windscreen or they can to say that they're a taxi or some of them don't have this name on the doors and everything like that. It was put up on and spotted in Anbow actually. Gemma, Kathleen Anderson's inquiry is quite, it ties in with something I've just mentioned in relation to the taxi policy that I want to bring back to this committee. One of the things that I will be asking for in the new policy is for licensed vehicles to carry additional signage, making it very clear that they are a vehicle licensed by us. When we introduce that in tandem with that, I propose conducting a social media publicity campaign, making people aware if you want a test value licensed vehicle, look for this signage. If you don't see this signage, don't get in the vehicle. If I look around Hampshire, certainly more and more authorities are introducing this requirement for signage on licensed vehicles so that it is very clear to the public what they should be looking for. Eastley have it, Winchester have it, Southampton has it, Basistoke has it and New Forester are in the process of introducing it. So, tying in with the comment I've just made, we are in danger of being left behind a bit if we don't introduce that. That will be in the new policy and I believe that that will make a significant impact when it comes to ensuring the safety of the travelling public. My next question to you is the taxis that people have assisted dogs as well, being blind and closely sighted and anything like that. I have been asked whether there is any way that they want to know what taxi them will take them and their assisted dog and everything. The legislation on that is very clear unless the driver has applied for medical exemption from having an assisted dog in their vehicle and out of those 285 licensed drivers, I think I have three drivers in the whole of the borough without medical exemption. So provided it's not one of those three, a driver is legally obliged to carry an assisted dog. Now obviously I'm aware there's different types of assisted dog and the assisted dog means to be clearly carrying, clear, sort of bilingual, but they are an assisted dog. But if a driver refuses to carry an assisted dog they are using an offence. We will take action against them and indeed in recent years we have prosecuted a driver for failing to take a, if it was a small family group and the farmer in the group partially sighted, making use of guide dog, the driver refused to take the dog, we prosecuted them and we were successful in obtaining prosecution in the magistrate's court and I have absolutely no hesitation in asking my legal colleagues to prosecute anybody who does that in the future. Thank you very much Mr. Lane. Thank you. Councillor Cottam. Yes thank you Jeff. I just wanted to ask one question. It was more around the availability and trying to get hold of the taxi on a Friday, Saturday bottom of the night is absolutely tremendous, you've got a win chance. Chair Lane, I think it's been a problem to a degree for some time and although perhaps not on the same scale, I think members from the south of the borough, Representative Romsey I'm sure your constituents will say exactly the same thing. In fact I know time and time again I get a comment from people in Romsey that if they know they wouldn't need a taxi they'll book a firm from Eastley or Southampton. Ultimately Chairman, obviously there are certain requirements that we have for becoming licensed, however there is no limit on the number of drivers that we can licence. There is no limit on the number of private hire vehicles that we can licence. So I think the question is what if anything is deterring people from coming into the trade or I would suggest might be an issue that of those people that are residents, some of them don't want to work on a Friday or a Saturday or a Sunday evening and I have heard that comment from people in the trade in the past and it's how we address that and I've been quite honest Chair, I don't have an easy answer to that. In the past I have been criticised saying all the council is making it difficult for people to enter the trade. We here in Test Family Hall are not doing anything above and beyond what every other council in the country is doing. Drivers have to have a medical, they have to have a criminal records check, we insist that they undertake safeguarding trade. That's the same for certainly every other council in Hampshire. As I say, pretty much every other council in England and Wales except, we're not going above and beyond. So as I say it really is a difficult question of what could we do to encourage more people to enter the trade so that there is greater provision for the public and I'm afraid I don't have the answer to that. If anybody has the answer please come and talk to me and I will happily explore those issues with you but I do know it is a problem. Thank you very much. Maybe that's something that we can talk about at future meeting if there's any research that's going on nationally as to what we can do about that. Are there any other questions? Given that we've got a reasonably succinct agenda if there's any other licensing issue that you'd like to ask about I'm quite happy to take that. If something does come to mind please, Michael is always happy to help. You can email it through. I would also just like to add that Councillor Coley has emailed his apologies and so we will add his name to the apologies received. If we are happy with that report which was very helpful, thank you very much and we look forward to that next report coming to the committee. May I have a proposer to note the recommendation? Councillor Gwynne, seconded Councillor Neill. All those in favour could you indicate please? That's unanimous, thank you very much indeed. So that concludes the business of the meeting tonight. Thank you very much indeed for your attendance. Enjoy the rest of your evening. That was really good. Do I need to sign these for you? Yes please, if you initial each page and then sign and date the last page that would be amazing. [SIDE CONVERSATIONS]