Transcript

Okay, Chary, you're now recording. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. This is a remote meeting of the Licensing Act 2003 subcommittee of the London Borough of Newham for an application to grant variation premises license for 6th Station Parade, High Street North, E61JD. Please note that this meeting recording will be available after the meeting on the Council's YouTube channel. In accordance with the Member's Code of Conduct, the three councillors on the committee today are required to declare any relevant interest on any matter being considered at this meeting. I have no interest to declare. Councillor Lofthouse? I have no interest to declare. Councillor McQuana? You're on mute, Councillor McQuana. Councillor McQuana, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you so well. Yeah, I've got nothing to declare. Wonderful, thank you. Okay, my name's Councillor Tony Wilson. We'll now move to instructions. My name's Councillor Tony Wilson. I represent Becton Ward and I will be chairing this meeting today. Councillor Lofthouse? Good morning, Councillor Jane Lofthouse representing Plaster South. Councillor McQuana? Councillor Pushpa McQuana presenting Plashet Ward. Thank you. Case officer? You're on mute. Apologies. I'm Colin Hunt. I'm the case officer. Thank you. Responsible authorities, can we start with you, Connell? Connell Stone, Metropolitan Police Licensing. Thank you. Ian? Ian McConnell, Commercial Environmental Health. Thank you. Steve Jackson, Licensing Team Chair. Thank you. Thank you. The licensee and agent, please. Good morning, Chair. It's Graham Hopkins, GT Licensing Consultants. Thank you. Is your client with you today, Graham? Yes, with her husband, Chair. Right, okay. Hi, this is Shobhika Shobhika. Thank you. Hi, she's a mayor of the University of Washington. Thank you. Vanessa, did you get that? Yeah, it's fine. I have the names. Wonderful. I will now briefly run through the procedure of this meeting. The licensing case officer will present their report. We then move to the representations of the responsible authorities, for example, the police trading standards, environmental health, et cetera. Members can seek clarification and so can the applicant or their representative on any matters. We have representation today from the police, the Council's Commercial Environmental Health Team and the Council's Licensing Team. The license holder then presents their case. Finally, members may pass resolution to deliberating private and exclude the press and the public, including the parties and their representatives. The clerk and the legal advisor will remain with members in a breakout room to provide advice on procedure and law. When the decision has been reached, the meeting will reconvene and the decision of the subcommittee will be announced in public. Four written copies of the decision will be sent to the applicant/license holder, representative and responsible authorities and any interested parties within five working days. Parties who have taken part in the hearing may appeal against the decision to the Magistrates Court within 21 days. As this is an administrative hearing under that 2003 Act, we are not trained lawyers, so we rely on legal advice from our legal department. Today we're presented by? Mandeep Mihar, legal advisor to the committee today. Wonderful. Thank you, Mandeep. I would also like to inform all parties that we base our decision on written and oral submissions. The clerk will take the minutes of the meeting. Would you like to introduce yourselves, please? Yeah, Maranissah Hussain, Democratic Services. Wonderful. If anyone in the chamber or on Zoom wishes to ask a question during the meeting, I ask them to raise their hand and wait to be invited to speak. I would like to ask for all mobile phones to be silenced or switched off and I can hear some background chatter somewhere. Someone's got something going, running in the background. If you can put or pause that, that would be great. I would like to now invite the case officer. Colin, would you like to present your report? Thank you. Thank you, Chair. The members of the Licensing Subcommittee are soon to determine an application to the grant of a variation for Sixth Station Parade, High Street North, E61JD and any valid representation that has been made. An application to vary the premises licence was received by the Licensing Authority on the 14th of June, 2024. This was advertised at the premises and in the local paper in accordance with the regulations. A copy of the application is attached to Appendix A. Chair, this meeting was adjourned from the 29th of July, I think it was, and we're re-sitting it now in a bit of a delay because obviously the application was received on the 14th of June. So that's why there's been quite a bit of delay because it was adjourned from the 29th of July. Okay, thank you. The application is for the following activities. Five alcohol off the premises every day, 24 hours a day. I'll come onto that in a minute. The premises opening and closing time is 24 hours a day as well. Additional variation request to change the name to Stations Superstore to extend the premises hours as I've just explained. The current premises licence hours are from 8 till 2 o'clock, and that's what the hours are as it stands at the moment. To vary Condition 2 of the premises as per Section 15 of the application, this is as follows. Condition 2 shall be amended to read the premises licence holder, DPS, other personal licence holder or fully trained member of staff authorised in writing by the DPS shall be on duty at the premises during the permitted hours for the sale of alcohol. Condition 5 shall be amended to read no beers, lager siders or stouts above 6.5% alcohol by volume shall be sold at the premises except Nigerian Guinness with a strength of 7.5% ABV. Nigeria Guinness shall only be displayed behind the counter and not available for self-service. Condition 7 shall be amended to read no spirits shall be sold in bottles of less than 20CL. All spirits shall be displayed behind the counter and not available for self-service. Condition 8B, UK armed force photograph ID shall be added to the list of documents that shall be accepted as proof of age under the 25 proof of age policy. Condition 11 shall be removed and replaced by proposed conditions 1 at box B, prevention of common disorder at Section 15 of the application form. The current licence is attached to Appendix B. The police licensing team has made representation against the application on the licence and objective of prevention of common disorder and the prevention of public nuisance and a copy of their letters attached to Appendix E. The council commercial environmental health team has made representation against the application on the licence and objectives of prevention of public nuisance and a copy of their letter is attached to Appendix D. The council licensing team have made representation in capacity as a responsible authority on the licence and objectives of crime disorder and the prevention of public nuisance and public safety. A copy of their letter and supporting documents are attached to Appendix E. Where the premises lie within a community of impact zone, there is a rebuttable assumption that the application for a new premises licence or club certificate or variation in respect of such premises would normally be refused unless the applicant can demonstrate in their operating schedule that there will be no negative impact on one or more of the licence and objective. At the hearing, members of the subcommittee would need to be satisfied that the applicant has demonstrated this. The community impact zone of premises can only be considered where their relevant representation is made. This means that if there are relevant representations, the application must be granted even if it falls within the CRZ. Members of the subcommittee should note that each application within a CRZ is to be considered on its own merit and a blanket refusal cannot be made. Where the licensing authority decides to impose conditions on the licence, such conditions must be appropriate and proportionate for the promotion of the licence and objectives. Conditions should be clear and unequivocal. The Secretary of State has issued guidance to the licensing authority to which they must have regards in carrying out their licensing functions. Members of the subcommittee should note that copies of the guidance are available at the meeting of the subcommittee. Alternatively, copies can be obtained directly from the committee club. Licensing authority may only depart from the guidance if they have good reason to do so. These premises do fall within the CRZ and a map of the, oh it says Stratford and Newtown, but it's the East Ham area. CRZ is attached to Appendix F. The premises held a licence since 2005 when it was grandfathered over. It has been transferred a number of times and the last being in 2022. On the 5th of March 24 a variation was received by this licence holder who is the current licence holder and the applicant of today's hearing. Representations were received and a subcommittee sat on the 24th of April 2024 where the application was refused. The decision letter is attached to Appendix G. A plan of the area is attached to Appendix H. Members of the subcommittee are asked to hear the application, the representation of licence holder and any valued representations received from responsible authorities and to determine the application. Chair, there's been three supplementaries. One from a statement from the licensing authority, Steve Jackson, and that's from a statement from Shane. And then there's been two late supplementaries that I think you've received from the applicant's agent, Graham, and I think that's been sent to you this morning or late last night, I can't remember. And it's the change of hours and some of the conditions. I think you've read it, but from what I can tell... If you'd like to run through it for me, please Colin. I think there's some... Just a sec, there's some... The changes are... Just a sec. Right. The amendments are... They don't want to go 24 hours every day now. I think the amendments are to extend the hours only on a Friday and Saturday and a bank holiday... And bank holiday Sundays to 4am only. All other times have remained as far as I can tell. Opening hours remained unchanged Monday to Thursday, non-bank holiday standards, but to extend to 4am the following day. So I think the hours are going to sort of come back to 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock on weekends and bank holidays. And then the change for the conditions are the request to vary condition two is withdrawn. The request to amend conditions five, seven, eight B and condition 11s to remain. The proposed additional condition three under the prevention of crime and assault is amended as followed. A minimum of two fully trained staff authorised in writing by the DPS shall be on duty at the premises from 0200 hours until the end of permitted hours. So that'd be till 4 o'clock. Yeah. And there are the changes. I think that's all I can see at the moment, but obviously I think, Graham, if there's any other ones you can present that at when you're presenting your case.

• Thank you, Colin. Right. Should we go...
• I have a quick question.
• Yes, go ahead.
• Colin, just, just referring to the previous application for a variation on the 5th of March, I know that the decision letter has been, it's in the main reports back as appendix G.
• Yeah.
• Do you recollect what the application for the variation was? I don't think that's set up in the decision letter from what I can see and it's not in the history. So I just want to know if Andy knew that.
• Okay. I haven't got it with me, but if you give me a second, I can do that. I don't know if there's anything else, but if you give me a second, I can easily do that.
• Yeah. Thank you.
• Tension parade, I think. I'm sorry. The computers are quite slow.
• Okay. So, yeah, they asked for 24 hours in the last one.
• For...?
• For supply of alcohol off the premises, 24 hours. Yeah.
• And I think there was a reference to late night refreshment in that particular one.
• Yeah, there was. There was every day from 2300 to 0500 the following day. So basically again, 24 hours. That looked like a takeaway of some description because it says late night refreshments outdoors. So I'm guessing it's a takeaway. It might be hot drinks or something.
• Okay. Yeah. We can ask them later, but that's not included in this new...?
• No, no. It's just alcohol today you're dealing with.
• Okay. Thank you.
• Thank you, Mindy. Can you pull up some pictures? Let's see what we're looking at, yeah.
• Oh, Maranissa, you haven't got me as host. Oh.
• I've allowed all our participants to share, so you should allow me to.
• Oh, okay. All right. Let's have a go. Can everyone see that?
• Yeah, so this is the CIZ map. So this is what we're dealing with today, this area here.
• Yeah.
• And there's the STEM station. So I can zoom in for that one. So there it is there.
• All right. It's smack bang in the middle. All right. And any pictures of the shop itself?
• Oh, hang on a second. There you go. So this is the premises. So if I swing around, just to give you a context of where it... That's going towards Barking Road.
• Nice.
• And obviously a station. And that's going towards, if I get round, that's going towards Romford Road.
• Right. Okay. So questions. There is one other premises, licensed premises, that has a 24-hour operation. Where is it in conjunction to this particular premises?
• Okay. So if you... I can do it on the map. So there's the premises. Oh, I've lost it in here. Where is it? This is the premises we're dealing with today.
• Yes.
• So if we go towards Romford Road, there's a 24-hour one. So it's just the other side. I've got it further. I think one more should do it. The 24-hour one is... No. It's the next parade.
• So it's walking distance?
• Oh, yes. It's just there. It's just here. I don't think it's that one. I think it's this one. Yeah, there is that one. I think that's the 24 hours. Then you've got another one on the corner.
• On the corner. Yeah.
• Which is that one as well. But that one on the corner is 220. And that's got...
• 24 hours?
• That's the 24-hour one. Yeah.
• Right. Okay.
• No, no, sorry. No, that one's from 8 till midnight, that one. That's 220. That's 8 till midnight. And this one, what I've just shown you, that's the 24-hour one. This one here.
• Right. Okay. I've got Sashi, Cash and Carry 226, as a 24-hour... Is it just open 24 hours?
• I think that's... I've got two, two... Oh, there's... No, sorry. That's the 24-hour one. That's the 24-hour one.
• Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Sashi, yeah.
• Sorry, apologies. I've gone round the wrong way. Yeah, that's the 24-hour one. This is the 8 till midnight, that one.
• Right. 1 to 4. Okay. And I think I need to... Go ahead.
• Sorry. These two premises, they've got... So I deal with the one that's 8 till midnight, which is this one here. They've got conditions on it. They're open 24 hours, but they can only sell in multiples of 4, 6% and 35 CLs. And they can only sell up to 6% and nothing under 35 CL. This one, the 24-hour one, is 6.5%, nothing under 20 CLs and no single.
• Right. Okay. Okay. So no single cans?
• No single cans, yeah.
• And both of these premises got can marking?
• I'll just check. I've got them up, actually. And... Look at 226, first of all.
• Yeah.
• It should be nice, probably. No. No, 226 hasn't got can marking.
• Okay.
• And the other one... They've got the screening. They've got the... No, they haven't got the can marking either.
• Right. Thank you for that. Council Lofthuis, any questions on these two premises or any questions for Colin?
• Not on these two premises, but just for clarification, for the premises we're looking at, the license to sell alcohol from 8 to 2 a.m. and with possible 8 to 4, when you see the shop actually open, are those opening hours as well for selling other things?
• Yeah, I think the request was for 24 hours opening. I'm not sure it's open for 24 hours now. You'd have to ask the applicant that. It did... On the application, it was for 24 hours.
• What's the request for alcohol sales, wasn't it?
• Yeah, alcohol and on the application it says opening and closing times, 24 hours as well. But obviously they've changed that, so I'm not sure if they've changed the hours that they're going to be open as well, or they're going to carry on 24 hours but stop selling alcohol at 4 and 2 o'clock.
• At 4 o'clock in the morning. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Councilor Moana?
• Yeah, I was going to ask... Thank you, Chair. I was going to ask a similar question as well, but I think I'll wait for the representative to come forward and tell... Explain it to us.
• All right, thank you. Thank you. Going back to you, Colin, have you got any statistics on that particular area for me today?
• I haven't got any statistics, only my knowledge of the premises, so I don't know if that's...
• Yeah, that will help.
• Yeah. So we have been working on High Street North for quite some time over the last sort of, certainly six months or more. We reviewed the premises that didn't have any conditions on it. A bit further, I don't know if you can see the screen, but it's further down, further down the other side of the bridge. We reviewed one of them last couple of months ago because they were selling to street drinkers. There is a street drinking problem in the area, and there was a gang problem in the area as well. So we've been working with the police and our ASB team as well, and we do a days of operation down there quite often. As I say, there are street drinkers down there, so it is a problem area.
• Okay. Very quickly, Mr Hartsfield's statement said it had exhibits, but I can't see them tabled in the agenda.
• No, when he sent them or when I received them, that's the only thing I had. Obviously, he has to send that to me, everything for me to put it into the agenda, but when I've only got a statement, that's all I can put in the agenda. He works with Steve, so I don't have Steve when he does his representation. He may be able to enlighten you on that, but I didn't receive any pictures. - All right, okay. My last question, has there been any breaches at that particular property or any of the properties in that 50-meter radius in the last six months?
• Well, I mean, yes. I mean, that's why we reviewed the premises a little while ago, a couple of months ago, but they have been tested all the way along there. We've had test purchases in there as well. I don't do the underage sales, but I have not had any reports of underage sale up there along that stretch, but the other premises have been tested. As I say, we do operations down there once every sort of couple of months, I think it is, and what our role is is to test the off licenses. We test them, and we haven't... Well, I don't know. I mean, Steve does it as well, so he may enlighten you as well if there had been breaches, but not that I'm aware of. - Right, okay. Thank you very much. I have no further questions. - May I ask one other? - Oh, yes, of course, Councillor Loughton. - Sorry. Just with the reference of what you were saying a moment ago, Colin, about checking the area and so on. Are the issues with street drinkers, are they basically 24/7? Is it, or are there particular peaks in the day and night?
• Yeah, I mean, I've been down there late at night, and it's a busy road, I mean, no matter what time of day it is. I mean, that's one of the main roads that, like, it's almost like the vein of Newham, not the bane of Newham, the vein of Newham, going from Rockford Road to Barking Road. So 24 hours, it's a busy road with people as well. The main issues are during the day and late into the evening, that's where the main issues are along that road. You know, I'm not saying they're all street drinkers, the problem is there's gangs, we believe, but it is a busy, especially on that bridge area, you get lots and lots of mouths up there, drinking alcohol and energy drinks, little gangs, and it's quite intimidating sometimes, I've got to say. - Yeah, thank you very much, thank you. - One other question, Colin, I also live in the area, and I'm well aware of what's been going on, but just so we're clear, behind that row of shops, is there not a secondary school? - Yeah, there is, if you, there is down here, if you go down here, in fact, I can show you where the school is, it's just there. Literally, down this road here. - Just down that road? - Yeah, it's 100 yards away. - And many times when you've gone down to do these checks, you've found street drinkers behind drinking? - Yeah, I mean, one of the places where the street drinkers drink is literally down this road, there's an alley, there is, I know this area so well, down here. - So that's the school?
• And this is quite a favourite, shall I say, for street drinkers down there. - Right, okay, thank you. I have no more questions. Councillors, are you good? Yeah, okay. Graham, thank you. Graham, is there anything you would like to ask Colin, pertaining to the report or anything we've just discussed?
• No, thank you, Chair. - Thank you, okay, let's move on. - Shall I stop sharing now, are you okay for that?
• Yes, that's fine, that can come down, thank you. - Thank you, Chair, thank you.
• Okay, so the Police. Colonel, would you like to present your report?
• Thank you, Chair. On behalf of the Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police, I wish to object to an application to vary the premises license for Val Maruban, 6th Station Parade, High Street North, E61JD, on the grounds of the prevention of primary disorder and the prevention of public nuisance. You've heard the hours for the proposed variation. The premises is situated within a cumulative impact zone as set out in the licensing policy 2024, so the onus is on the applicant to comprehensively demonstrate that if the variation is granted, it will not have a negative effect or impact, excuse me, impact on the vicinity in terms of the four licensing objectives. The premises in the road shops opposite East Ham Tube Station. This is an area that is problematic, please, because of the street drinkers and groups of males congregating in the vicinity. Groups of street drinkers frequently congregate just over the roads in the premises at the junction of High Street North and Sibley Grove. In our experience, once they've consumed the alcohol, they discard their bottles and also sometimes urinate in the streets. Their presence is likely to have an adverse effect on the quality of life and well-being of local residents, and Police believe that having another source of alcohol, including the availability of high-strength Guinness and 20 CL bottles of spirits in the vicinity for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, would only make the situation worse. That's it. Safe and Neighbourhood team have informed me that they have undertaken several joint operations with the local authority officers to try to mitigate the effects of ASD by street drinkers in the area surrounding the premises, and that these were ongoing. Unfortunately, due to circumstances and technical issues, I'm unable to provide information regarding the number of incidents of antisocial behaviour that have been reported to police as occurring in the postcode, other than there were 26 such incidents in April. If I'm able to submit, I will unfortunately not be able to obtain that information. In conclusion, police oppose this application on the grounds of the prevention of climate disorder and the prevention of public nuisance, and would like the committee to refuse it in its entirety. Taking into consideration the late submissions by Graham, the bottles of Guinness, Nigerian Guinness, bearing in mind the cost of that product, police would not object to that being an exception to the 6.5 maximum ABV. Regarding the other proposals, we would strongly object to sales of bottles of spirits in 20 of 20 CLs. Regarding the military ID being added to the identification, that would not be a problem, and we would not object to the amended wording for staff training. But we would object to the variation of hours. We believe that they shouldn't be open later than 2am. Thank you, Conall. So, have you actually seen the supplementaries that have gone through with their proposals, Conall? Because I didn't see mine until this morning. Yes, Graham sent them through to me, copied them to me. All right, okay. Any questions, Councillor Lofthouse? No, I don't think so, really. Apart from the issue of the 4am, as it were, on Saturday morning, Sunday morning, I wonder if Conall could just be a little bit clear about why even those two or three days would make a difference. Really, because of the situation, just the availability of alcohol into the early morning. As you've heard, there was Sassy Cash and Carry, which is 24/7, and the other premises on the right-hand side further up, Mars Cash and Carry, I believe that actually Thursday to Saturday is 1am finish. So, it would just be another source of alcohol, and given the problems in the area, this would be in that area south of the tube station that would be open considerably less than anywhere else. So, we would pose it on those grounds. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor McQuana, any questions? Yes, I have a question to ask. Thank you for your report, Conall. On page 38, you said there were 26 incidents in April 2024. Yes, that's correct. Can you have some data to see what kind of incidents did we have, and why just in April 2024, not for the last six months? We've had problems. We have a new computer system that's been recently installed at the place, and I'm not trained, fully trained, in obtaining information, interrogating it and obtaining information, and unfortunately, I did ask the Safer Neighbourhood team if they could assist, but they haven't got back to me. So, that is the last statistic that I could find. It's unfortunate, and I apologise for that, but I think that's indicative of the level of the problems there, and these are incidents that are reported to police by members of the public as antisocial behaviour, which, you know, there's a huge range of incidents which come under that heading from people, you know, obstructing the streets and to being abusive, or, you know, as I say, it's a huge range of offences, but again, I would say emphasise, you know, the adverse effect of the quantity of life and wellbeing of local residents. For instance, if a mother and a child were passing then, you know, they may feel intimidated, because there are often sort of groups of street drinkers in Sibley Grove, and I've seen myself where there are five or six together, you know, so somebody walking down that road may well feel intimidated by their presence. Okay, that's why I understand that, Colin. Thank you very much. Well, and before we go any further, on page 38, you made mention about the Safer Neighbourhood team going out in joint collaboration with the police and maybe the licensing officers. Could you tell us what that actually entails? What do you actually do when you do one of these visits? I think it involves visiting the premises, doing licensing checks with the the licensing of council licensing officers, and really just looking at the area, you know, as perhaps speaking to the street drinkers, and, you know, and they're also, what's quite prevalent is gangs of young males, or males, also congregate outside the tube, often outside the tube station, and down towards Lidl's, where I believe there's quite a lot of illegal betting done, but so it's just really going into shops, speaking to people, and speaking to people who may be congregating in the streets, you know, explaining to them that they, you know, they may be perhaps unwittingly, they may not realise that they are, you know, affecting the situation of people, passers-by, and, you know, taking action where necessary, so I think it's it's partly enforcement and partly engagement with the public. Yeah, roughly how many man-hours would you say, if you said over the duration of one week and the cost to the council or the Met Police, how would you quantify that? It's difficult because recently the safer neighbourhood teams have been pulled on to aid in central London and, you know, various other places, so these are done, you know, as and when everyone can can be available, so as their frequency is not consistent, but, you know, it's done when we are able to, given the situation with the number of officers available. Okay, thank you very much. Councillors, any other or further questions? No, sorry Mandy? Sorry, I have a question. You have, please go ahead. Colonel, just for clarification, the applicant has asked for Condition 5 to be amended, that there'll be no beer, lager or cider or stout above 65% ABV, except for Nigerian Guinness with a strength of 7.5 ABV, so do you, sorry, I just didn't catch it in your last response and maybe I missed it, but do you object or agree for the sale of Nigerian Guinness with a strength of 7.5? My initial reaction was to object to that, but given the cost of the product, it is quite expensive to buy, I would now agree to that. Okay, thank you. Right, thank you. Graeme, any questions for Colonel? No, thank you, Chair. You've been very quiet today, that's fine. Okay, well let's move on. Environmental Health, Ian? Thank you, Chair. The Commercial Environmental Health team is making representation in respect to this application in relation to the licensing objectives of prevention of public nuisance. The applicant is seeking to vary their license to allow sales of alcohol 24 hours a day and increase to six hours a day and amending conditions in Annex 2 to allow sales of Nigerian Guinness and the application also seeks to allow sales of spirits in bottles of 20 centilitres. There's been no complaints of noise or antisocial behaviour in relation to this premises in the last six months. The applicant has not proposed any additional measures to prevent a public nuisance. There are quite a number of other premises in the area which we've heard about. I'm concerned that allowing sales of spirits in 20 centilitre bottles could make this premises more attractive to street drinkers and lead to an increase in street drinking, littering, public urination and other antisocial behaviour. Selling alcohol late at night and early in the morning at times other places are closed is also likely to attract similar antisocial behaviour and lead to an increase in street drinking, littering and noise issues for local residents. Thus on behalf of Commercial Environmental Health wish to make a formal representation in respect to this application. Right, again coming back to you Ian with regards to the supplementaries submitted this morning, how do you feel about the changes to certain conditions? Not necessarily opposed to allowing the sale of Nigerian Guinness because it is quite a premium product, expensive product, especially in relation to the other sort of products on the shelf. In relation to the increase in hours this area does have a big problem with street drinking and antisocial behaviour and we would oppose the increase in hours and the sales of 20 centilitre bottles. We quite frequently see this in amongst the rubbish left behind by street drinkers so yeah we'd oppose the 20 centilitres and would want to keep 35 centilitres at a minimum. Okay, so a question for you, we have Sassy Cash and Carry which is open 24 hours who also sells the 20 centilitre bottles, how come that has never been opposed or you know because that area is still covered in the CIZ so why do you believe that 20cl has been permitted on that? I'm not sure what happened when that application came forward, I'm not sure whether that one was during Covid and just wasn't the evidence at the time, I'm not sure when the application was made but yeah I don't know why that was allowed. Right okay, has there been, because there's such a high volume of foot traffic that goes either way and I'm sure you've been there and been to the premises and checked it out for yourself, when was the last time you visited there? When this application came in March and I was also, I went there in the evening on the 6th of April, Saturday the 6th of April to have a look at the evidence for street drinkers and there was quite a lot of evidence of, didn't see any street drinkers at the time but there were lots of discarded bottles, Sibley Grove around the around the betting shop on the corner of Plashet as well, so there was a lot of evidence around and on the next road which parallel, East Avenue I think it is, that's right where the Trinity Centre is, yeah the next road parallel to that, yeah so there's plenty of evidence, this is an ongoing problem in the area. Right okay, could someone confirm to me if, and I'm sure I've seen it somewhere, that the existing licensed premises has got a can marking scheme? Yes it has. Ian, so when you notice all this discarded paraphernalia, did you check to see if any cans or bottles were marked? I didn't at the time, no, it was a Saturday night, we had a full programme of visits to do, so it was five minutes in the area rather than spending a bit of time looking for particular evidence. All right, thank you. I have no further questions, Councillor Lofthouse? Only a small one really, Ian, evidence of street drinkers, did that include in that area, did that include miniatures or these 20 centimetres? I've got, yeah no, mostly just cans and bigger bottles and things, bottles of beer and things like that, yeah. Thank you. Councillor McWharner? Chair, I don't have anything to add, thank you. Okay, thank you. Ian, one last question, are you, are you aware that, well I know you are, that plastic school is just around the corner, then we've got that nursery on East Avenue just there, we've got that mosque and it's, as you say, there's a high population of street drinkers and what have you, are you concerned about how much alcohol is being sold in that vicinity, in that setup? Yes, yeah. What are your major concerns? Well, the anti-social behaviour it leads to in the area, I mean, particularly, I know a little bit about Sibley Grove and I know businesses in there have had to fence off car parks to prevent street drinkers getting in there and secure premises, so it has had an impact for quite a few years. It's an ongoing problem. And it's just getting worse, yeah. All right, thank you. Any other questions from any of the officers? Legal? No? Graham, any questions for Ian, please? No, Chair, thank you very much. All right, thank you. Okay, next, Steve, licensing team, please. Thank you, Chair. In regards to the recent application, excuse me, for variation to the current premise license at Bell-Mugrin Enterprises, 6th Station Parade, High Street North, East Ham, the council's licensing enforcement team would like to make representation against the application as a responsible authority on the grounds of crime disorder and the prevention of public nuisance and public safety. The variation is requesting the following, to change the trading name to Bell-Mugrin Enterprises, to extend the permitted hours for the sale of alcohol for consumption of the premises and the opening hours from, well, basically 24 hours, to vary the conditions at Annex 2 of the premises license as per section 15 of the application form, to read as follows. Condition 2 should be amended to read the premises license holder, DPS, another personal license holder or fully trained member of staff authorized in writing by the DPS shall be on duty at the premises during the permitted hours for the sale of alcohol. Condition 5 shall be amended to read no beer, lager, cider or stout above 6.5 ABV shall be sold at the shop except for Nigerian Guinness with a strength of 7.5% ABV. Nigerian Guinness shall only be displayed behind the counter and not available for self-service. Condition 7 shall be amended to read no spirit shall be sold in bottles of Lesson 20CL, all spirits shall be displayed behind the counter and not available for self-service. Condition 8B, UK Armed Forces photographic ID card shall be added to the list of documents that shall be accepted as proof of age under the 2020/25 proof of age policy. Condition 11 shall be removed and replaced by a proposed condition 1 at box B which is on the application form, prevention of crime and disorder section 16 of the application form. The current license condition states that no spirits to be sold in bottles of Lesson 35CL. The council's licensing team along with the police and commercial environmental health team has worked very hard to eradicate anti-social activities occurring in this area and having the premises provide off sales for 24 hours a day and amending the current conditions in relation to spirits could result in a further increase of these anti-social activities in street drinking. I visited the area on the 18th of March 2024 at approximately 1430 hours. There was no bottles outside the premises however around the corner in Plaszczuk Road in the alleyway next to the school I came across two male drinkers who were drinking Budweiser and pouring whiskey into a cup container. I asked whether they had purchased the alcohol and they said it's from the off license opposite the station. The premises also failed a licensing compliance inspection on the 27th of February 2024 where a warning letter was issued and again on the 22nd of April 2024 where an additional warning letter was issued. I've attached both warning letters for reference. In regard to the training records the licensing team have no issues with the change to the wording but would like to add in that the staff training records will be kept on the licensed premises and made available for inspection by the licensing officer, training standards or the police upon request. Selling alcohol late at night and early in the morning at times other places are closed is likely to attract similar anti-social behaviour and lead to an increase in street drinking, littering and noise issues for the local residents. All of the other requested changes on the variation application the licensing team would be happy with. The premises lie within a community for impact zone or area and is a rebuttable presumption that applications for a new premises license or club certificate or variations in respect of such premises would normally be refused unless the applicant can demonstrate in their operating schedule that there will be no negative impact on one or more of the licenses objectives. On behalf of the council's licensing authority in its capacity as a responsible authority I would ask members of the licensing subcommittee to consider this letter of representation. That concludes my letter of representation chair. I have had a look at the supplementary fee that has been provided. In relation from the licensing team obviously it's good to see that they have reduced obviously their hours but again up to 4am in the morning especially on Friday and Saturdays at the weekend would obviously attract further anti-social behaviour issues and street drinkers to this area. They have stated that they've withdrawn condition 2 and there has been a proposed amendment to add a condition 3 which I would like them to explain a bit further because that contradicts condition 2 at the moment so I wouldn't like to see the proposed additional condition 3 added if obviously the committee are minded to grant this application. In terms of the only other condition that I would not be happy with would be condition 7 which is the 35cl. I would like to keep that remaining on this license. Okay thank you. Right then let's just go back to Suleiman sent out two warning letters within the last six months and they've been in breach of on page 42 I think no actually sorry on page 44. Page 43 chair as well yeah staff training and a refusal I think it's a refusal book. Have you been into the premises to follow up to see if they bear compliance? I don't believe a further revisit was conducted by the officer I know he visited on the 26th of March and the 23rd of April yeah I don't see any records that he's conducted a further revisit since then but obviously that officer has now left the authority so that would probably be redo for a re-inspection well it should have been about a month ago but that will probably be revisited by the new officer very shortly. Okay do you believe from what you've heard today and what you've read and Suleiman's letter sorry letters of warning for non-compliance do you believe that the existing license holder is a competent or the competent person to have extensions up until four o'clock in the morning? In terms of competence I wouldn't really like to comment off I believe the premises been operating for some time there obviously failed compliance visit does relate around training and obviously there is some conditions that are currently attached to this license in relation to the further statement that was submitted by Shane Paysfield which is the new licensing enforcement officer he actually carried out an inspection in that area on I believe it was Thursday the 18th of July and obviously he found some sort of like empty cans and bottles stellar Artois and magnet cider bottles and it does state that he did have the green neon sticker with Mel Vergran enterprises printed on the label he does say he did photograph this and he submitted this as evidence but I believe what he's done is he scanned it and the picture hasn't come through on the pdf copy but obviously the officer stated that he's seen that on that date so that's what that would refer into it would have been a picture of a bottle with the sticker relating to the this premises today six days from parade so he said he also conducted some test purchase in the area and he's obviously seen some further bottles that were found on the junction of High Street and again there was stickers that were relating to Vel Vergran enterprises and obviously his statement is fully listed there with all the information on and so again the same question that I asked Ian with regards to the football traffic, ASB, street drinkers, could you just give us a roundabout synopsis on your well we have a monthly safer partnership East Ham meeting with obviously the safe neighbourhood team includes police trading standards and very other authorities it basically includes sort of like intel complaints it also includes CCTV control room who sort of identify key areas where there's anti-social behaviour and problem premises obviously there is a lot of street drinking in this area which we've been working really hard on trying to improve the area at the moment as Colin related to we did call the premises in for review recently and ensured that obviously we have stringent conditions robust conditions that obviously try and deter street drinking in the area these operations work on a monthly basis all the teams get together we identify problem premises we carry out test purchases compliance visits and obviously we issue warning letters we also visit unlicensed premises and we've previously seized alcohol and obviously there's been tobacco and vapes that have been seized by the trading standards team as well and obviously all this intel is collated and obviously the police build up a further profile in the area by carrying out further patrols the safer neighbourhood teams go out and do further patrols and their community safety officers issue fpns where appropriate and try and deter the street drinking in the area thank you council loft has any questions um yes please uh following on from your one about sulliman's letter um those two letters are basically a month apart regarding um self-training refusals and so on and uh they both say that they must address the concerns within 14 days and yet the second one comes a month later what response was there do you know as to two of those two of those letters um well i've actually recall this being at the hearing previously when they did apply for a similar application and the premise holder actually stated that they all had like personal licenses um which obviously is fine and it's really good that they understand and have completed that training however having a conditional license it has to be adhered to and i believe they their faults were that because they had a personal license that it didn't need to have these training records on site so i think it was more of a misunderstanding from that part which was explained to them further so i'm assuming that obviously especially now with an agent in place that they would um obviously have the appropriate training records in place if required in the future and that is one of the conditions they have suggested today as well and thank you then and and similarly regarding the the cans in the street you you saw some on february wasn't it yes is that when it's on february and then again have i said that correctly i think i have yes yes in february and then again in july um how has the how the premises responded to knowing that there are canons well obviously there was a there was a further revisit done on the 18th of july by um a new licensing officer shane basefield and again he he found he found obviously bottles uh and cans that were had the green stickers on relating to these premises so it is it is a bit of a concern that obviously there is obviously people purchasing alcohol from there however obviously i know all the blame can't be put on the premises for people literally in the street however it clearly shows that's where the alcohol is coming from yes thank you so that it might suggest that street drinkers are being served it it does so we employ that yes okay thank you very much thank you thank you chair um i've just got one or two question quick question steve i think i wanted to ask but jane loft has got there before me okay um so i just wanted to find about staff training um do we know how many people are trained there and how many are working there um from my knowledge i've seen two people working there um obviously i wasn't involved in the compliance visits so i can't really comment on on exactly how many staff that might be a question to the applicant um but obviously the training records um obviously were listed on the failed compliance visit so it wasn't available for the officer to see at the time of his inspection okay that's fine thank you no problem okay fine um officers any questions for steve no okay brian any questions for um steve no thank you chair thank you okay um right well grom it's your turn to um read out your report thank you thank you chair um as you've heard earlier mrs shabica mayorethan who's the license over in dps and her husband who for the purposes of the hearing as i've just learned his surname and it's rather long i'm going to call him mr mayo raffle um don't mind yeah he's happy with that sorry jeff due to us being away at the hearing for much of last week we had to go away for a review hearing we only got to meet the clients on friday to have a further discussion and it was during that meeting they agreed after after talking about it to amend the um both the permitted hours we're requesting and the opening hour so it's been cut back from uh 24 7 uh both the trading times committee trading times and the opening hours to a request for four o'clock friday the following day friday saturday and bank quality sundays so the rest of the week monday thursday and non-bank holiday sundays there's no change whatsoever from two o'clock excuse me so i apologize for members getting that late but uh so i drew it up over the weekend um i got them out as soon as i could now we have amended the other parts of the variation given that the shop employs six members of staff of whom four have personal licenses and are authorized to sell alcohol and while we're talking about that i'll just hold them up for you so you can see them there are um value trading training records now graham sorry that the camera isn't really showing you um just to let you oh sorry i'll have to turn around we can't really see you and right okay hello mandy um right i've got the examples of training records here so they have had you still we still can't see you could only see the paper halfway i'll have to turn it the other way much better thank you right sorry about that i'm not technically minded chair right there's examples of the trading records i've looked at them and they are up to date so they they have taken notice of um sulliman's letter as far as the training goes and i think the fact that the officers have seen the labels on the bottles uh show that any concerns he had about the bottle marking in that time of his first visit has have been fully addressed right so the rest of the conditions uh i say we've withdrawn condition the amendment to condition two we are asking for the 6.5 limit on beers lagers ciders and stouts to be varied but only for the nigerian guinness which as you've heard will be kept behind the count and not available for self-service ditto with the request for condition i think that's five was the nigerian guinness one seven is the spirits we're asking for that to be amended to 20 centiliters but again you'll see from the license all spirits must be kept behind the counter um and not available for self-service so we are asking for that to be considered um the provision relating that um steve mentioned about the condition three i think it was where we've amended the minimum of two staff there will probably be more staff there but that's the the legal minimum to apply during this extended period of grants it will be from two till four friday saturday and bank holiday sundays um it does not affect the training condition of course because that's completely separate we just feel that the existing training condition is so long-winded it needs to be shorter more enforceable and sharp and we've included wave training in that to work with the police on that one and you know impact on the vulnerability of women girls and children especially so they have taken that on board um they are fully aware of course that the um shop lies within the ciz what that means um that there's also a public spaces protection order which prohibits drinking and over spaces and before going through the uh which we've done we've gone through the amended application um the current premises license errors and conditions are not under consideration of course this is a variation application i can give you some background information if i may the shop has actually had a license since 1990 under the 64 act and then naturally under this act um our clients have owned it since 2020 prior to sulliman's letters there were no adverse instance incidents reported no history of problems no breaches of condition whilst under their ownership they do actually have another shop in newham again where there have been no offenses or breaches as i've said they employ six part-time staff at the shop for have a personal license and other persons who are authorized to sell alcohol um mrs mayor rathoms had a personal license since 2020 and mr mayor rathoms have one since 2010. chair the amended application um now requested for our sales of alcohol until four o'clock they're only for those three days and we've made the intended opening hours the same so there's no request to extend those 24 7 they'll they'll be conjunctive um the idea is that they took advice from us they took account of the ciz and the public spaces protection order and of officers comments in their representation so that is why they have cut the extended out the request for extended hours to the extent they have which i would suggest that rather than showing that they were careless operators anyway actually goes to say to show you that they are responsible and wish to uphold the licensing objectives and promote the ciz um i don't propose to go through the conditions any further i think that's been aired at length but i would just point out to two members that um although it's not a license objective we are looking at this application post covid post the energy crisis etc and the post brexit ramifications where everything shot up in price um that applies both the sale of nigerian guineas and there is a considerable population in in east ham and the surrounding areas from west africa this is their natural national drink so i understand it especially for the guys of preference and we ask that that is allowed to be sold they've demonstrated responsibility keeping them behind the counter etc bottle marked of course and not available as a single can or bottle that that applies obviously just as much to any extension that you may grant we are keen to get 20 centimeter bottles of um spirits not to accommodate the street drinkers far from it but for the same reasons customers are asking for these you've heard about the other two shops which i won't name on here but we know where they are they're down the road both probably equidistant from velmo lookering um it seems that maybe even though again it's not part of the licensing objectives it would be fair to consider that rather than having these people go into the shop buy food stuff and then put them back when they can't get the the spirits that they want to take home with them the majority of customers obviously um they'll just go down the road and buy it there anyway so it's not going to stop them not getting it um it's where and we want fairness for our clients in that respect that they can have the same opportunities as the two other premises can one of which mr mayarathan has pointed out to me which i think was the second one um beginning with them um well i understand granted that's 20 centimeter limit after covid not before so it makes it more recent and i do know that i believe there's at least one other shop in east ham that may have um the smaller limits but i can't remember the name of it so that that's the reason behind it fairness post covid post energy crisis kept behind the counter bottle marked and not labeled i noticed that the officers didn't find any of any spirit bottles from the shop in the street anyway um but we we feel it would be equitable to allow them to to have the 20 centiliters and really if people are the majority of customers take it home it's not going to impact on the ciz or undermine the licensing objectives i will draw members attention to the secretary of state's guidance which does clearly suggest that obviously particularly with an off license they can't be responsible for customers away from the shop um those people are responsible for their own activities and should be dealt with accordingly i've spoken to the clients at length they've assured me they do not they certainly don't sell people a drunk that's a criminal offense anyway any more than they sell underage there's no history of underage at this shop since they've been there or before uh no history of them being seen selling to um street drinkers that they know or anybody who's been intoxicated so i would urge you to allow this part of the variation um furthermore i i think it's fair to say that the issue of street drinkers well i mean i've dealt with you as you know chair for 18 19 years now um in my current role um and i commend the efforts made by the council officers and the police to stamp out street drinking which is a curse not just here believe me we've seen it just say with brighton every other call that's got street drinkers sitting on it begging um so it is a national problem but i really don't think that see my car i've spoken to clients at length they don't know if the people are sober when they go in the shop they're not sure and do not get feedback from the other side from the responsible authorities as to who the street drinkers are if they're being fined as steve indicated could that information not be passed on to the shopkeepers in east hamtown center and along high street north to prevent those people getting alcohol we're not talking about necessarily two to four but at any time during the day if the shopkeepers get that information then now you know if photos have been taken of these people i'm aware of the human rights act obviously and the restrictions of that imposes and data protection but it would be good if the information was fed to the shopkeepers so they can stop these people getting drinks um we've had and it's also important to say chair that there are no representations from residents or local businesses neither in the high streets or in the neighboring residential streets the streets um so it hasn't misapplication which has been correctly advertised as you've heard has not caused them any any issues the very people that the ra's are trying to protect have no issues with it we were there earlier in the year prior to the last hearing being held for the reasons was held up for the reasons it was we were in the shop for probably two two and a half hours i can honestly tell you i did not see anybody who to me after 18 years of dealing with them appear to be a street drinker come in that shop and that was late morning um by which time these people would be wanting to buy a drink but they certainly weren't there there as i say the clients are fully aware of the requirements of the law of the psbo and so on but it would help not just them but other other shopkeepers other traders if the information and possibly photos could be passed back to them not to be displayed for obvious reasons but so they know and can train their staff do not serve this one do not serve this one feedback would be very helpful and maybe some more fines you know to move them on or get rid of them out of the area they as i say they have addressed the issues concerning bottle marking and training we say that they are responsible operators they have introduced a condition or offered a condition to address that on their application um that they will now task the staff to ensure that by cc could be invisible checks ensure that customers and other people do not sorry loiter or drink outside the shop politely politely asking any of the do to leave the frontage of vicinity quickly and quietly so they haven't ignored it if they see them outside the shop which i would argue is the limit of their direct authority to ask people to move away outsiders drink clearly it's a matter for the police and the council's enforcement officers but they will do their part they'll also undertake a daily risk risk assessment taking into account any advice received for the police minimum of two staff on duty we've amended the training to include the wave training so hardly irresponsible operators we've also put in some measures to deal with children that weren't there before they can't have unaccompanied children anymore to unaccompanied children under 16 on the premises at any time and after nine o'clock to seven in the morning which this would only be four o'clock with the amended application um there will be no children under 16 on the premises at any time during those times so i think taking everything into account unless my clients want to to add anything else um we we are asking you to grant the amended variation with its substantial reduction in in both trading for primitive trading hours and opening hours to only cover the weekends and to allow specifically the nigeria guinness to be sold and the 20 centiliters of spirits so taking everything into account with the the amended conditions those are remaining all the other conditions on that license haven't been changed will remain the additional measures my clients have taken to to deal with people drinking it on the street outside um if they got the feedback i can assure the panel that they would not serve these people if they knew who they were those coming into shops bearing in mind into the shop bearing in mind the two and a half hours we were there we didn't see any it was just normal people coming out the station coming from down the road the bus stop etc to buy groceries and maybe a few beers or a bottle of wine certainly no sign of any while i was standing there anybody drinking outside the shop either and that was approaching midday um on the day we went there which i think was friday uh we believe the steps we've taken and offered will promote the licensing objectives and prevent any increase in negative cumulative impacts um would you like to address the panel at all anything either of you no that rest is our case chair thank you very much thank you graham um council makwana have you any questions for the agent or his um or the license holders um thank you chair yeah i do have some questions for the applicant not the representative because end of the day the applicants got to run the business go ahead thank you thank you so much okay so thank you very much uh uh show mr shabika matu ratan yes yeah am i correct yeah thank you very much um i just want to ask a quick question um can you tell me what do you understand by the street drinkers yeah it is affect the social things and the environmental of course but uh and from the our business it's like we almost like we handle uh it's not from our shops in our area we can make sure that um we're not serving street drinkers from um from the opposite our we can see wherever we can so from apart from us it's not our hand for protect um from the environment like we can't handle that from the apart from our eyes so whatever we can handle it we all we did everything under the council and uh whatever is the lowest there so we did everything in there okay so if a drunk person comes in and is that too much drink obviously you won't know how much they're drunk and you've always see them how would you assist uh a customer like that i straight away tell them i did you say and i can't save you so i straight away um i i'm not serving for the customer okay thank you uh the other question i want to ask is can you tell me how many primary schools and secondary schools are around your business name if you one secondary school yeah one one secondary school uh the primary school is one nursery one nursery there uh rather than that it's not one which one though i can say which one is the leather leather yeah the leather one is the primary it's quite far from us okay can you tell me what you understand by um selling alcohol under 25 challenge 25 yeah if there's one person coming if you look like or she looked like under 25 i need to ask the proof of id so it needs to be the original one not the photo copy or the photo on the phone with the phone or anything so if they're not showing up then i have to refuse it not for sell them or anything so that's the rule and i am not so that's the rule and i understand you got staff working at different different times six part-time staff uh are they as a committee we have duty of care to protect our residents as well as whoever's living distance away um do they all live in new or do they live outside new yeah yeah yeah okay thank you chair i'll come back for more question later on thank you thank you council ofteners thank you um going back to the street drinkers particularly um there is there is some evidence that um street drinkers have been served by um by your premises um so i would ask first how you would how you could avoid doing this and if i could put in the same the same question regarding the the spirits um okay so so your representative has suggested that many people would wish to buy these with their groceries and take them home how would you how could you be quite sure that the person you sold the 20 centimeters to was going to take it home okay that's a grand question but council i cannot start by answering that for you good morning councilor um what we would be looking to do was to try and encourage closer working with the um licensing team yeah ceht and the license and authority we also do a system which i have explained to the clients we're not like some of the other agents just take their money and run they can talk to us at any time we will be keeping in touch with them especially the variations granted to make sure that we are encouraging them to work with not to just that but with the training as well but to make sure they are working with the authorities um not against we are i was concerned to see about the finding down the road we don't know what time these cans and bottles were found so we can't say what time they were sold the clients have always been quite clear with me they do not if somebody's drunk i mean you know they're bobbling all over the place they got blazed eyes and all the rest of it they would not serve them i think mrs mayoreth has made that quite plain what we would like to encourage is closer working with the authorities so we can get some feedback when somebody gets a ticket a fine they don't fix what's called a fixed penalty notice um penalty charge notice whatever um for uh drinking and straight they they know it's illegal hence the measure to stop people drinking outside their shop um which i had as i said i didn't see when i was there but to stop people drinking in loitering outside they want to get some feedback from the authorities right mr so-and-so he's a victor of him if that's allowed um he's one of our street drinkers if that was circulating to this shop and maybe the other two that sell the uh 20 centiliters whatever it would help them to train their stuff say you can't serve him you can't serve him now i have seen similar pictures passed around in other parts of the country uh presumably by the police and it's you know whether it's been a conviction whatever those go around and they do not serve them so maybe some sort of feedback maybe there could be a meeting or something we as agents or consultants would encourage that i'm sure mr mrs mayo ruffin would support that so measures like that positive steps to when somebody's caught make sure they can't buy another drink in my street notes would would uh training um give guidance as to how to recognize that yes i mean we'd be quite happy to give them some more guidance i have to do that before they leave here but i mean i'm looking at the usual size you know the street drinkers if they've been sleeping rough they're gonna they'll stand out pretty pretty much um but yeah we we can we can try and find out on that um another thing we do look at is conflict management to avoid issues with when they're when they're refused that's an area that we could consider and would be prepared to consider conflict management and maybe some guidance on um what street drinkers well you can't say what they look like but how they act it's clear when they're drunk of course most people can tell because they can't speak i mean we saw one walking down the street the other day and that was in our town in fact it was yesterday afternoon he was on the phone and he was drunk um so you can get some positive ideas so we're quite happy to do that and anything can be done could i ask the applicant have you what sort of um experience have you had of needing to or feeling you need to refuse sales to street drinkers yeah when i saw you just you speak to the counselor what's frequent or what have you done yeah when when we saw them uh we used there when they ring on the street so what what did you did you how did you he didn't serve them did you know we refused to stay learn we we tell we told them move to from the street or you go home and bring them don't drink on the street how often have you had street drinkers attempting to make purchases there's uh less uh sometime the weekend or yeah we don't see much but mostly in our areas almost clear in the front of our shops so mostly we don't keep them in uh stay standing there or um the gang like too many two three people standing on one place or anything we tell finally please move from this area and like that and do they move um yeah sometimes they did yeah mostly they did sometimes they will come back but not we make sure they're not bringing there so in our area we can only cover from our shop front of our shop thank you can i ask another question about um you having two trained people to serve um who are trained to sell sell alcohol um from two to four uh how viable is it to to be sure that you would have the staff you could have the staff there um whoever doing that these times uh whoever doing like nature late line shift this doesn't make like two of us they are ready to do the same shift like they can continue to do that so it's not adding like extra like stuff or anything like that whoever already we have like they can extend it up to four yeah could we just ask for the counselor what time do those people working to two o'clock what time do they start three o'clock in the afternoon yeah so they'd have to work through to to four yeah yeah to four all right three four you might need some there might be one yeah one guy starts selling that well we're working through the the same time they're going to keep it extra like two hours time so that's that's okay that's we're gonna cover it yeah okay i thank you very much for the moment oh no can i ask a question i asked earlier on your normal opening hours for selling groceries and so on um what are they are they going to be the same as your license hours or they will they will be the same as the license hours counselor yes thank you very much thank you okay um all right um thank you once again for your presentation um i've i've read a lot into it um i just want to give you a little bit of background i also live in east ham and i was so partial shop very very regular and um so there's a bit of conflict for me here right now because every time i pass that shop i have to literally walk across the boat and walk past the station and the station have people coming out so on your side i have found large groups of men um come and go in but they always seem to be huddled around the fascia of your shop so i found it quite maybe when graham was there they weren't there but as i said i live very close and i see what's happening there so that's something that's going to be needed to be addressed at some stage because it's not what i've personally seen and i promise you i partial shop very regular that's one thing um when it comes to you saying that you would consider doing or one of the conditions would be that you would risk assess i take it that it's not going to be graham that's doing it it will be yourselves because it's on a day-to-day basis what would you do on a risk assessment how would you risk assess for that day uh what do you mean by well you're saying that as part of a condition that you would submit that you would be doing a risk assessment now as i said graham your agent won't be there to do risk assessment and something like that considering where your premises is it's got to be on a daily basis or at least a weekly basis so what would you do to risk assess your business can i come back on that initially councilor chair sorry um to be fair to the clients i've put that in the in the conditions this is part of the problem graham we put things in and they they have no idea what i'm talking about and it's something that we're going to have to sign off on so i would like them to answer please i was just going i was just going to say i'll be going back to training on it yeah okay all right so how would you risk assess your business we had the review and training the staff and uh we had the review every week uh deal with the problem uh we already have find a solution and if we report the authorities or any other have you got cameras in your store yeah yeah we do yeah how many cameras have you got in your store eight eight how many outside one and that goes directly down on in onto the okay now um i know um we were looking at because of the way the area is situated we we do have a lot of asb we've got a lot of people that want to fight under the influence of alcohol and one of my colleagues did ask you about this but you've been speaking to graham and he's also mentioned that to go in the conditions would be conflict management training or wave training now i know going to say i've put that in there and i'll be and i'll be teaching i'll be taking them on the course is that what you're going to say again uh no chair if it was the wave training i don't get in touch with sergeant marion arrange it i have none so we do wave training we can cover conflict management i've spoken to um one of the national company highfield and they will provide online trainings of the staff so it is available won't just be these this couple we will be included yes okay so it is available and they can do it online okay wonderful uh can i come back to the license holders please right um so could you tell me what is your definition of the ciz uh sorry yeah and what does that mean and what does that mean to you oh what does that what is the impact from the social just like that and the social behavior and the public safety and public relations and the children from harm yeah we need to consider those things including that right so um one of my colleagues asked earlier about um i think it was council loft house about you seeing people who are drinking on the street um and what would you do if they came in you wasn't clear um there's a lot of drinkers on the street a lot so the ciz zone is put there for a specific reason and i want to know your understanding of that reason yes i got it that one because um the street thing is in front of us when we see only we can react it for that then there's some from other side or when they are like not drunk or anything it's like a normal normal like person coming we can't identify them isn't it so when we when we see only front of us then we can react it we refuse to sell so anything like that uh front of the shop when they're standing and bring it we refuse to sell it so from other side of the shop is when they come and reach us we can't do anything on that because it's not our hand so that's the thing okay all right i'll leave that question there um why in particular do you want to sell 20 cl of spirits pass them asking um and they buy it from other shops like coke and grapes and cigarettes it's like 20 pounds worth of things and they are asking like a 20cl kind of have the part of this one and those that so when we not have it they just put it back all the 20 pound things and they go and buy from other shop there's like like 20 to 2-3 meters apart from we we have other shops in the same they're just going there they're not gonna stop it okay how much would you charge for 20cl if you were granted it's like depends on the brand that's all it's like a price mark things we're not selling like uh it's like mostly the five months it depends on the brand it's like eight pound nine pound that's different different prices we don't we don't know even we buy them maybe you want to sell something but you haven't done your financial research on if it's whether it's going to be profitable for your business yeah it's it could be it's like 15 15 percent kind of 15 percent 15 to 20 percent they mark the price mark the profit right okay my last my last question to you um again the license holders could you tell me what the four licensing objectives are uh prevent of crime and disorder prevent of um public nuisance and the public safety and perfection of the children's from and last question are both of you license holders yes yeah yeah um and you both got your license in 2020 no i got 2020 he had from 2010 2010 and when was the last time you both had a refresher course we had a like reverse course uh about the guidance you know about licensing you know you should go you know quite regularly and get refresh of course so it keeps you you know aware of what's actually happening and what the government says when was the last time you had uh when they when we applied this one so we had yeah sorry when you applied for what uh the license june uh when she applied this um application for this one you had refresh course then uh yes yes you had one then who who performed the the course for you the first course it's the older one you know if you have like chair i think they're getting confused over the question um the personal license yes personal license yeah have you had a refresher course on it no no um we did go through certain things when obviously when before i put the application in when i went down to see them um so we we would provide that i think we would train all the staff right okay well i have no further questions council makwana please go ahead thank you chair um this is questions for the applicant uh please um can you tell us where do you normally buy the alcohol from and the damage account is all the categories in the at the backing one uh you just buy it from there yes and you keep your invoices with you in case the inspector does us at any point yeah it's 100 yeah um the other question is do you own the shop or there's the shop on a lease hole it's a lease one it's a loose or how long is the list for uh we call more seven and a half years that is 2030 we have it here 2030 okay that's fine thank you very much thank you yes i have one more um it's an obvious one really in a way but um why do you want the extra two hours extra four hours a week um the the 2 a.m to 4 a.m on into the saturday morning into sunday morning what um what sort of business do you expect to be doing in that time it's the weekend we can we get more customer it's a weekend so it's mostly like celebrating daddy's or it's like that when they when we close keep asking a customer customer is asking like we need we have they come and knock on the door so you normally do a reasonable amount of trade up to 2 a.m when you are at the moment yeah yes and you you anticipate that there will be that extra up to four yeah and what what sort of things might you be expecting to sell people their groceries or alcohol um alcohol and some properties like soft drinks and we got the snacks snack items and the cigarettes general things yeah right thank you thank you council lost house thank you council makwana um any officers have any questions for the licensees steve i do please chair um okay steve after connell please go ahead um right first of all actually council lost house has actually just asked my question for me about the type of customers you expect to attract between two o'clock and four o'clock and and what they will buy um will it is it likely do you anticipate it likely to just be alcohol or will it be groceries as well it's like all all mixed up with that it's a convenience store so it's they're gonna be assumed like they're gonna buy all the all the mixed things right okay um going on from that um whilst graham's idea about engagement and the exchange of information is a good proposal um ultimately it comes down to a decision by the person who is serving in the shop so if that information is not available what do you tell your staff about um checking or if they suspect someone is a street drinker or is already drunk or whatever what advice do you give them we wish to sell reviews to sale and you can ask politely leave the shops and reviews to sale okay and the if the application is granted you say two members of staff between two o'clock and four o'clock will they both or one of them at least be a personal license holder of course everyone like whoever sells the alcohol i mean in the chill area they everyone have their personal license they go be your poor people they go for sale okay thank you chair you're welcome quinnell uh steve uh thank you chair um it's just a question really relating around um obviously refusals um on the inspection in april there was only two records that were shown in the refusals uh book um obviously been four months since that last inspection um i wonder if the applicant could just advise how many refusals they've done in the space of four months especially with the large gathering of street tricks in that area yeah because it's lots of it's like we got the book all right i've got to look just to have a look at it yeah those steve are the entries for the latter parts last week or so i don't know if you can see them yeah underage one they're drinking child drinking outside so they do understand that there is yes drinking outside that premises then they're offering the condition i'll just turn it back that was between the 12th and the 20th of august the previous two pages cover between the third and the 12th and you yeah they've refused alcohol they're um reason street drink a single can of beer that was refused obviously because of the condition uh he's got young man refused a magnum on that that was on the third that one's on the fourth magnum refused young boys trying to buy cigarettes on the fifth um somebody else on vapes on the sixth it was all refused yeah we've got more than 60 yes yeah mr may wrath is saying 60 no thank you very much um and the only other question really is again around obviously people coming into the shop to purchase spirits um normal circumstances if i went into a premises i would buy a full bottle um wine full bottle of spirit what type of customers at that time in the morning um i'm talking local residents that are coming into your shop are purchasing alcohol to take home and how do you know and defense with the fact that they're not street drinkers uh yeah somebody coming from the world for like it's like a normal customer so it's made from other grocery items especially they buy some some other food and biscuits kind of things we buy from that and with alcohol we can assume like in he won't he won't he won't want to stay like in the streets to officially go home or wherever it's played so i think what mr jackson has asked you is if somebody came in three o'clock in the morning just want you to buy a bottle of whiskey and four beers what would you think about that and nothing else uh yeah it's officially like he come in from the work how we can assume that late night shift and finishing them before okay okay okay thank you steph any questions ian uh no chair i think uh all the questions have been answered thank you okay uh colin any further questions no no no i'm fine thank you wonderful legal i just one thing um steve mentioned that you had there was a bit of a query you've had on the additional condition that they propose about two fully straight police sorry two fully trained staff being present during 2 a.m and 4 a.m and they want the extension you said there was a slight conflict with condition two is that right that's correct because it actually states on the current license that the premise license holder or dps or personal license holder to be present during the permitted hours so that's the whole day so obviously that so that's what i was saying there was a slight conflict if that sort of can be read that it could be a case of only from two o'clock in the morning that's the way it could be read i mean i've just noticed that the um applicant is now withdrawing that variation to two it's on their view the supplementary this morning so i think if graham i think graham might need to just explain that a little bit oh so which one i mean you're withdrawing too so what's the license uh yes i think the condition i'm just gonna have a look at it sorry two bits of paper the current one is premises license holder uh dps or a personal license holder to be on the premises during the permitted hours that's remaking we we work on sorry yeah it's condition two of annex two on page six of the license okay so that will stay that's staying yes and then you just want that extra condition about the the time from 2 a.m till 4 a.m yes yes okay sorry have you finished yeah yeah thank you nothing further thank you thank you every moment right so we're going to go into deliberations now um with our um clerk and our legal officer um and we will be getting back to you with a decision today so don't go too far all right baranessa would you like to pause the recording yes i'm going to pause the recording and i'll um put everyone in the waiting room or a breakout room according thank you we're now recording chair thank you meeting is now reconvened um we have made a decision um legal officer will summarize for you thank you so this is a summary of the decision the full written decision provided with the reasons in five working days so the members have deliberated their decision is as follows the application to extend the opening hours and permitted hours for sale of alcohol for consumption off the premises um has been refused the application in relation to condition two amendment um that i believe that's been withdrawn so there's no decision in respect to that condition five amendment has been granted condition seven amendment has been refused condition eight b amendment has been granted and in respect to condition the request to amend remove condition 11 and replace it by the proposed conditions set out in section 16 of the application form the members have decided to further amend the conditions uh 11 on the license that they will be confirmed in full in writing when the written decision is sent out thank you mandy um the applicant responsible authorities and interested parties may appeal against decision to the magistrate's court within 21 days now um just before we finish uh we had uh we came to it was very difficult trying to reach this decision for you guys um but we think we think we we've done well with it but we are you know saying to you that um if you get all your um eggs in the basket and get everything set up right you are more than welcome to come back to us um and once this has all been done um and we do look forward you know to to supporting you in your next endeavor so thank you very much everyone for coming um this meeting's now closed thank you thank you thank you