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Adults and Health Overview and Scrutiny Sub-Committee - Thursday 5th September, 2024 7.00 pm
September 5, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meetingTranscript
Transcript
what does that say two minutes past oh okay uh welcome to the committee members thanks for um attending tonight um i hope you had a good summer um which seems to be nearly over now um uh no meetings may be recorded and broadcast by people present as allowed for in law by the council by intending either personal online you may be picked up on recordings a council call is covered you know uh i'll turn it off when you finish speaking um so we have um so um minutes of the trip then the absences tonight chakrabarti apologies from Councillor Chakrabarti for lateness due to emma volunteer volunteer and working as a support worker at barnet main cap and working with health watch volunteer at age uk barnet as well and i mention anything else as i remember it sorry waters is um online remotely are you there emma yes hello um hello i'm council cohen do you want me to just share my screen to begin the presentation sorry can you hear me yeah can you speak uh just speak up a little bit we're just hi can you hear me now just keep talking i'm sorry um can you hear me now no uh i think now we need to just work on on the volume a bit uh can you hear us okay yes yes just to say i don't know if you can hear me well i can hear emma well from the video connection so i don't know if that helps identify anything one emma it's not particularly good um i don't know whether you can speak up or turn your volume up in any way um you talk to us and we can tell um can you can you hear me at all can you hear me a little bit yeah we can hear you a little bit oh right sorry i didn't realize i thought you couldn't hear me at all can you i mean i'm speaking quite loudly now i don't know if it's um online i don't know is that okay can you hear me now um yeah i think we'll have to go with with that and we'll all be incredibly quiet as well i'm sorry um so uh i assume you've got a a brief um presentation yeah let me just show um yeah let me just show my share my screen okay oh sorry don't see that i don't know why my presentation's gone i'm sorry okay so hello everyone my name's emma waters i'm a public health consultant in barnet and i cover children and young people um i've been asked to come here today to um present on updates on our oral health action plan and working groups and general oral health in barnet if you really can't hear me um please sort of raise your hands and i'll stop um so thank you for having me um so oral health as i i as i said in the report and i'm sure you're aware is a key marker of general health in children and tooth decay and poor oral health is preventable so it's an important you can't hear me she's got to check where uh with the members can you come on here must be very difficult can you hear me online is it my yeah i can hear you very clearly emma okay yeah you're very faint yeah perhaps we'll just try and see if we can do that if you just hold on a minute okay thank you yeah if you could just speak and we'll just see if we can do it through um through the through a laptop oh i'm really sorry thank you very much um hello i'll start again um just to introduce myself quickly my name's emma waters i'm a public health consultant in barnet speaking about all in children today um so as i said in the report all health is a key marker of general health in children and tooth decay is preventable so an important public health issue poor oral health can impact on children's ability to sleep eat and play and cause discomfort poor oral health represents a significant financial cost to the nhs and it's not evenly distributed within populations with significant health inequality the cause of this tooth became socially determined as social factors can influence dietary behaviors tooth brushing behaviors and potentially ability to access dental services therefore a whole systems approach is required to improve oral health with wide with system-wide partnership working um sorry my thing is now not working um so i presented some of this data today um the national detrimental epidemiology program um does regular surveys of different populations but every other year always surveys five-year-olds could have really key time to look at all health in children um so the last survey in 2022 had very wide confidence intervals because um there was not a good sample achieved um so it's difficult to compare the samples between um areas the bar barn in other areas and with the previous survey results however um what we can say is a significant number of children in barnet have um dental cavities um and also that our rate was higher than the england average which is the case for most of london concern um really um as we know it has such a significant impact on child health um and it's just to say here that poor health obviously has similar etiology to to healthy weight and in barnet healthy weight in children's is also a significant problem but actually we're doing relatively well with healthy weight compared to um london and england as you would probably expect because barnet although it has obviously has significant deprivation is relatively affluent um so this shows that um all health um is an area of concern compared to other comparable health indicators so it is an area of significant concern in barnet um and also to say um we are working to improve the uptake of the survey and this year there was a much better uptake achieved so hopefully we'll get much better data from this the third year that's just gone the survey um so in 2022 as you know there was an oral health health needs assessment undertaken which was shared with you and presented at the time to you as well as a result of that a multi-agency oral health action plan was developed and an oral health partnership group was formed um and since the um development of the oral health action plan is being regularly um they've been regular is the oral health partnership group has met regularly to monitor progress of the action plan um focus areas for the oral health partnership group include supervised tooth brushing schemes um supervised tooth brushing scheme have a good evidence base behind them and have been to be associated with significant reductions in the proportion of children having the k experienced by the age of five um and the icb is now funding a supervised tooth brushing scheme across ncl they will offer provide offer supervised tooth brushing in the five most deprived awards in barnet um to early years um barnet public health alongside um bells and family services are now supporting the icb to implement the ncl tooth brushing scheme with input from the oral partnership or health partnership group um the next um area is the oral health promotion team in barnet which is funded from public health and delivered by wittington health um however we have very small amount of funding for this and the oral health promotion team is effectively one oral health promoter who is then managed by the healthy rate manager with input also from um the um the wider um wittington health pro healthy child program um the oral health promotion team is as recommended by the health and need assessment focusing on health education of the workforce and has developed a health staff education plan um there is a need for further development of the staff education plan um specific training um for looked after children's teams and carers um and also um identification of oral health champions within the healthy child program and the early years workforce which is behind schedule um we're also focused on your oral health communications and material and materials we've developed um health promotion leaflets and education materials and we're looking into developing a more in-depth communication plan as well as um working alongside um colleagues such as barnet health ambassadors um to promote or healthy communities more effectively um oral health paths consisting of age-appropriate toothpaste toothbrush and health information leaflets are now routinely delivered by the healthy child program at one year and two five-year reviews um we've also developed we've also um previously um delivered packs of all health packs in the bay's holiday scheme um and to migrant health teams along but um there've been some we haven't had funding to do that this year that was last year um but the oral health packs in the in the one and two point five year reviews are continuing um next steps um we're looking to support um regular health packs to migrants and we're looking into the feasibility of the living or health packs and the base holiday schemes again because that was a very well evaluated and really very well received sorry um innovation um fluoride varnishing which is something that's um recommended by the health needs assessment to consider whether we could provide it with additional funding we did look into it and obviously if we had the funding we'd very much like to provide fluoride varnishing um however um there was insufficient funding when we looked into the costs um so instead the focus is on supervised tooth brushing and further promotion of the free fluoride varnishing that families can receive through nhs dentists um dental access and registration um we've continued to promote we continue to try and promote the parents ability to access nhs in dentists through the find the dentist tool because there are nhs dentists environment accepting children and young people and we've got communications planned for mid-september um to promote this tool again and also to vote both among parents and um professionals looking after children so they can promote it to parents too um then the final thing is this whole systems approach to oral health and in varnish we recognize um the multifactorial causes of poor oral health and it's all health is considered within other public health programs and the oral health partnership group members which includes clinicians family services looked after children's nurses work to promote fresh oral health across the system um we developed a making every contact count um module around oral health for children um finally we work to support the national dental epidemiology program um as we said um and to improve the uptake of the survey for next year um so that's just a summary of the report i hope you could hear some of it i'll stop sharing my screen and ask um about any questions
Transcript
What does that say? Is it two minutes past? Oh, okay. Welcome to the committee members. Thanks for attending tonight. I hope you had a good summer, which seems to be nearly over now. No, there's so many to me. Meetings may be recorded and broadcast by people present as allowed for in law by the council by attending either personal or online. You may be picked up on recordings. A council call is covered, you know, I'll turn it off when you finish speaking. So we have so minutes of the group. Then the absence is tonight. Chakra Bharti, Chakra Bharti. My microphone. Apologies from Councillor Chakra Bharti for late this duty. Emma. Volunteer at Barnet Barredman, volunteer and working as a support worker at Barnet Mencap, working with Health Watch, volunteer at Age UK, Barnet as well. And I mention anything else as I remember it. Sorry. Waters is online remotely. Are you there, Emma? Yes. Hello. Hello, Councillor Cohen. Do you want me to just share my screen to begin the presentation? Sorry. Can you hear me? Yeah. Can you speak speak up a little bit? Hi, can you hear me now? Just keep talking. Sorry. Can you hear me now? No, I think now we need to just work on on the volume a bit. Can you hear us OK? Yes. Yes. And just to say, I don't know if you can hear me well, I can hear Emma well from the video connection, so I don't know if that helps identify anything. Emma, it's not particularly good. I don't know whether you can speak up or turn your volume up in any way. You talk to us and we can tell. Can you hear me at all? Can you hear me a little bit? Yeah, we can hear you a little bit. Oh, right. Sorry, I didn't realise I thought you couldn't hear me at all. Can you? I mean, I'm speaking quite loudly now. I don't know if it's online. I don't know. Is that OK? Can you hear me now? Yeah, I think we'll have to go with that. We'll all be incredibly quiet as well. I'm sorry. So I assume you've got to give a brief presentation. Yeah, let me just show. Yeah, let me just show my share my screen. OK. I'm sorry, I don't see that. I don't know why my presentation's gone. I'm sorry. OK, so hello, everyone. My name is Emma Waters. I'm a public health consultant in Barnet, and I cover children and young people. I've been asked to come here today to present an update on our oral health action plan and working group and general oral health in Barnet. If you really can't hear me, please raise your hands and I'll stop. So thank you for having me. So oral health, as I said in the report and I'm sure you're aware, is a key marker of general health in children. And tooth decay and poor oral health is preventable, so an important modified... I'm sorry, Emma. You can't hear me. I've just got to check where the members can come in. It must be very difficult. Can you hear me online? Is it my computer? Yeah, I can hear you very clearly, Emma. OK. Yeah, you're very faint. Yeah, perhaps we'll just try and see if we can do that. Just hold on a minute. OK, thank you. Yeah, if you could just speak and we'll just see if we can do it through a laptop. Oh, I'm really sorry. Thank you very much. Hello, I'll start again just to introduce myself quickly. My name is Emma Waters. I'm a public health consultant in Barnet speaking about oral health in children today. So, as I said in the report, oral health is a key marker of general health in children and tooth decay is preventable, so an important public health issue. Poor oral health can impact on children's ability to sleep, eat and play and cause discomfort. Poor oral health represents a significant financial cost to the NHS and it's not evenly distributed within populations with significant health inequality. The causes of the tooth decay are socially determined as social factors can influence dietary behaviours, tooth brushing behaviours and potentially the ability to access dental services. Therefore, a whole systems approach is required to improve oral health with system wide partnership working. Sorry, my thing is now not working. So, I presented some of this data today. The National Detidental Epidemiology programme does regular surveys of different populations, but every other year always surveys five-year-olds because that's a really key time to look at oral health in children. So, the last survey in 2022 had very wide confidence intervals because there was not a good sample achieved. So, it's difficult to compare the samples between areas, the barnet and other areas and with the previous survey results. However, what we can say is that a significant number of children in barnet have dental cavities and also that our rate was higher than the England average, which is the case for most of London concern. Really, as we know, it has such a significant impact on child health. And it's just to say here that poor oral health obviously has a similar etiology to healthy weight and in barnet healthy weight in children is also a significant problem, but actually we're doing relatively well with healthy weight compared to London and England, as you would probably expect because barnet, although it obviously has significant deprivation, is relatively affluent. So, this shows that oral health is an area of concern compared to other comparable health indicators. So, it is an area of significant concern in barnet. And also to say we are working to improve the uptake of the survey and this year there was a much better uptake achieved. So, hopefully we'll get much better data from this year that's just gone survey. So, in 2022, as you know, there was an oral health health needs assessment undertaken, which was shared with you and presented at the time to you as well. As a result of that, a multi-agency oral health action plan was developed and an oral health partnership group was formed. And since the development of the oral health action plan is being regularly, the oral health partnership group has met regularly to monitor the progress of the action plan. Focus areas for the oral health partnership group include supervised toothbrushing schemes. Supervised toothbrushing schemes have a good evidence base behind them and have been associated with significant reductions in the proportion of children having the K experienced by the age of five. And the ICB is now funding a supervised toothbrushing scheme across NCL. They will offer supervised toothbrushing in the five most deprived awards in Barnet to early years. Barnet Public Health alongside Belles and Family Services are now supporting the ICB to implement the NCL toothbrushing scheme with input from the oral health partnership group. The next area is the oral health promotion team in Barnet, which is funded from public health and delivered by Whitterton Health. However, we have very small amounts of funding for this and the oral health promotion team is effectively one oral health promoter who is then managed by the healthy rate manager with input also from the wider Whitterton Health Pro Healthy Child programme. The oral health promotion team is as recommended by the health and need assessment focusing on health education of the workforce and has developed a staff education plan. There is a need for further development of the staff education plan, specific training for looked after children's teams and carers, and also identification of oral health champions within the healthy child programme and the early years workforce, which is behind schedule. We're also focused on your oral health communications and materials. We've developed health promotion leaflets and education materials and we're looking into developing a more in-depth communication plan as well as working alongside colleagues such as Barnet health ambassadors to promote oral health in communities more effectively. Oral health paths consisting of age-appropriate toothpaste, toothbrush, and health information leaflets are now routinely delivered by the healthy child programme at one year and two five-year reviews. We've also previously delivered packs of oral health packs in the Bayes holiday scheme and to migrant health teams along, but we haven't had funding to do that this year, that was last year, but the oral health packs in the one and 2.5 year reviews are continuing. Next steps, we're looking to support regular health packs to migrants and we're looking into the feasibility of delivering oral health packs in the Bayes holiday schemes again because that was a very well-evaluated and really very well received innovation. Fluoride varnishing, which is something recommended by the health needs assessment to consider whether we could provide it with additional funding, we did look into it and obviously if we had the funding we'd very much like to provide fluoride varnishing, however there was insufficient funding when we looked into the costs. So instead the focus is on supervised toothbrushing and further promotion of the free fluoride varnishing that families can receive through NHS dentists. Dental access and registration, we've continued to promote, we continue to try and promote the parents' ability to access NHS in dentists through the find the dentist tool because there are NHS dentists in varnish accepting children and young people and we've got communications planned for mid-September to promote this tool again and also to vote both among parents and professionals looking after children so they can promote it to parents too. Then the final thing is this whole systems approach to oral health and in Barnet we recognise the multi-factorial causes of poor oral health and it's oral health is considered within other public health programmes and the oral health partnership group members, which includes clinicians, family services, looked after children's nurses, work to promote oral health across the system. We've developed a Making Every Contact Count module around oral health for children. Finally we work to support the National Dental Epidemiology programme as we said to improve the uptake of the survey for next year. So that's just a summary of the report, I hope you could hear some of it. I'll stop sharing my screen and ask about any questions. Thank you Emma, can you hear me? I can hear you very clearly yeah. Yeah we can see you. Just on one point could you just say what fluoride varnishing is? Yes so I'm not dentally trained, I'm a medic, but I have a very a lay person's understanding of fluoride varnishing. So literally a varnish of fluoride is applied to children's teeth, it takes very little time, it can be applied from the ages, well I don't know if it can be applied young, but it would be routinely be recommended to be applied from the age of three upwards every six months. It's literally just putting it on the teeth and then allowing it to settle and then reapplying every six months. Thank you, thank you for the report, I think it's a very impressive report, setting up the partnership group and setting and training for the wider workforce. And the toothbrushing pilots. I just wanted a couple of questions. Obviously the treatment you know went right down during the pandemic, I mean kind of shocking you know really low levels and then it started to pick up. Is that going to get back to pre-pandemic? When we're going to get back to some pre-pandemic levels of treatment? You mean of, sorry I didn't mean to interrupt. Yeah the same question just about access, about access of to dentists, you know the problem of finding a dentist and if you were getting more people registered would there be the dentist to actually cope with that? There are two questions for me and then I'll open it up to them. Yeah and they're both valid questions obviously, thank you for them. So you're right there has been an increase in but it's not gone up to the pre-pandemic levels but even the pre-pandemic levels were only just over 50% of children having, I can't remember exactly how it's defined, but relatively regular dental checks. So obviously we've gone up to I think about 45% when I looked at the figures. So that's an estimate because I had to work the figures out myself, I don't know exactly correct but I looked at the number of dental appointments in the population. So it's not quite at the pre-pandemic levels and the pre-pandemic levels weren't great. Our aim is to increase that, it's something we can measure, so it's something we can look at success in and that's why we're promoting access to dentists. There is access to dentists in Barnet, there are dentists accepting children but I completely take the point that if old children access dentists in children in Barnet we don't know that there would be dental access and also there's a point that today there are dentists accepting children in Barnet, depending on family's resources they may or may not ever be able to travel to the dentist accepting the children, so that's another issue. But we work with the ICB and we keep them informed on our work, so if we see more children being accepted by dentists we hope that they'll be able to create more, they'll be able to meet that demand. But yes it is an issue that at the moment we can promote it in the knowledge that there will be dentists accepting children but there might come a point where we have to consider whether we want to promote what to do if people can't access dentists then promoting the dental services might not be, might have to re-evaluate that and work with the ICB, who are the people who commission the dental services. Thank you. Are there any questions? Councillor Wakeley and Emma, number J. Thank you, I have a couple if that's okay. Thank you. The first question I just wanted to ask was about dental care and neglect and safeguarding issues. In the report it says that dental care professionals should receive regular safeguarding training. I'm quite worried about the shoulds there, so could you answer what should mean and why it's in the report and not do receive safeguarding training? Okay no I think that's my mistake. And also just out of the programmes we've run, you might not have the figures but have many safeguarding incidents come up or any reports being made, do you know of the programmes that the council's been helping with? Thank you. Yeah so I don't think, should is the wrong word, that's just me not writing in clear English. We've repeatedly, this is the local dental committee members who are on the health promotion group and they are very confident that they are, that the dental professionals are getting regular safeguarding training because it's part of their registration, they need it. So although I can't tell you, I don't have the figures, I've checked with them repeatedly and they've been very able to reassure me that that is the case. Within the regular appointments, dentist appointments, they tell me it's actually very rare for them to see cases of neglect because the problem is that with dentists, because you don't have to be registered as a dentist, you don't have to take your child for regular dental check-ups, they only see the children whose parents are bringing them in, so they think, so they don't regularly see. You are absolutely correct that within our supervised toothbrushing schemes and within the oral epidemiology, the dental epidemiology surveys, they are a wider breadth of children seen, although parents can still choose to withdraw their consent. I don't know how many safeguarding issues are picked up in those programmes and I can look into it and get back to you because I think that's a really interesting point. Again, there's still an issue that parents need to consent to them but they're not, it's slightly different, so I think it's a really interesting question and I look into it. Thank you. Yeah, I was more wondering when they're going to schools because I imagine if they're taking them to a dentist, they're probably not neglecting their children because that wouldn't really make sense, but it's more when they're going into school, if schools are concerned more generally about dental or hygiene or dental neglect, is that something they can report in for safeguarding and is it something schools are aware of as well actually? I think it does come up in the training, I'm assuming it would be reported through the MASH like any other but I can look into the route because I'm not, I would assume it would have to go through the MASH but let me look into it. Sorry, that's helpful, thank you. And then my second question, sorry, I wanted to ask about looked after children. I was a bit concerned actually about the, I'm disappointed about the 69% of our looked after children that have dental checks. I think reading the report, we're trying to encourage parents to ensure their children have good dental care and that they're getting dental checks. I think obviously we're corporate parents, we're looking after the looked after children for only 69% of them to have regular dental checks. I think it's actually really, I can't think of a word that isn't too strong, but it's really disappointing. We can't, we're not leading by a good example and I think it should be the priority over all the other programs because if our looked after children aren't even accessing that care, I think that's really bad. It's not really a question. Yeah, I need, no, no, it's completely, yeah, agreed. I need to talk to, look, we need to get new data on that and talk to looked after children and nurses because we've been working with them since the health needs assessment around dental access and they do do regular health reviews for all looked after children, even the ones who are not within Barnet. They will, I mean, I spoke to them recently, they talked to Manchester to do a face-to-face review, so they are doing them, that they are trying to make sure that parents, that there's dental registration and GP registration. So I will ask them for more up-to-date figures. I'm not saying they have improved, but it's a good, good point. We need to see where we, because we've been working with them back and we haven't checked where they are with it. Chair, could we ask that it's reported back to us about the looked after children? Because I know a few other members are also concerned about that figure and if we could have an update, that would be brilliant, thank you. Apart from the actions, oh sorry, Emma was there, yeah. Brilliant question, Councillor Wakeley. I also wondered, Emma, is it worth just flagging this with somebody like Tina McElligott who's responsible for, you know, our looked after children service in the round. That's, yeah. I think the reference to corporate yeah, no, I will raise it with her too, because it's not all on the dental, the looked after children's nurses, they coordinate it, but they need the carers and the, to be supporting and working with them on this. I think it's, we should be just exploring every avenue. No, no, you're completely right, yeah. Hi, following on from Councillor Wakeley's questions, I mean this is a children and young people's all health action fan, but I think I'm wondering whether it needs to be sort of integrated into an adult one as well, because it feels like there's a wider issue around the culture around brushing teeth, then we're talking about looked after children, but then I think Councillor Wakeley's points about how identifying if people and children have safeguarding needs through teeth brushing, and I think Councillor Stock brought up an idea of having, in some boroughs there are, I think it was mobile dentist bands, and I feel like maybe that would help potentially, and then also the other question I had is that if there are dentists that are further away, is it within the budget for people to be provided funding to get to those dentists, and would that information be made available to people to let them know? Emma, yeah Emma, did you get the two questions? Okay, so around the access to dentists and some kind of mobile van, I don't know of any boroughs that actually have a mobile van, but I did hear Councillor Stock, in that respect, boroughs have mobile vans that go around and do the fluoride varnishing, and while they're doing the fluoride varnishing, they are looking in the mouth and then might report concerns, but I don't know of any actual dental checks which is slightly more in depth than the fluoride varnishing, but maybe there are some boroughs doing it. As we discussed, we don't commission the dental services, they're commissioned by the ICB, and so I think we could raise it with them that maybe it's something that could be looked into. The ICB are working on preventative measures, while they fund the supervised tooth washing programme, they've taken that money out of the NHS dental money to try and work on prevention as well, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be putting forward other ideas too, but I can't comment on the feasibility of that scheme and the costs of it, because I don't work in NHS dental commissioning, but I do know that they are considering prevention within the ICB and they obviously also work with dental public health consultants, but at the moment the proportion of money spent on dental prevention and all the health promotion compared to the costs of dental costs is a fraction of it, so if we could do something to increase that amount and have more health promotion that would obviously be preferable. And your second question, I'm really sorry I can't remember that specifically what your second question was, I'm sorry, oh the adults, yes sorry, integrating, I don't know if you have an adult or healthcare plan, but I was thinking about the culture and how encouraging adults to, you know, it's essentially adults that need to take children to get them, no you're right, and so I was just wondering about integrating that into it, but also about, you were saying about lots of dentists are available but they're outside of people's areas and so money to travel to those places, is that something that, and I know I'm asking a funding question and I'm aware of that. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no it's a reasonable question, I mean I'm not saying they are necessarily out of people's areas, I'm saying that you might not have access to them, not all dentists are accepting NHS children onto their lists, which would make me assume that people might, their nearest dentist might not be accessible to them and they might have to travel further, obviously in London it's less of an issue because distances are probably smaller than in a rural area, but even so there might be, that could affect access, I don't have any information on exactly how that affects access, but we know when I've typed in postcodes to see, they have been dentists accepting relatively near, but a father, certainly we don't have any funding for that, I don't think the ICB do, but I can look into it, it's not as far as I'm aware there would be any funding, but I can look into it, if there is funding obviously it should be promoted. For children's dentists there's no right to choose then? Well there's a right to choose what's available, I don't think it doesn't work in the same way as the right to choose an appointment when you go, but they're the right to choose the available of dentists, but if they haven't got capacity and they're not accepting, choosing to accept children on their list, then you can't, yeah, you can just choose from the dentist and accepting children. With regards to the, oh sorry do you want me to carry on, I was going to carry on the second, there was another part of the question about adults, do you want me to, have you finished that? There was just, Emma's final point was about integrating with adults, which I think is a really good point, we don't have any funding attached to adult or health, so that currently there isn't an adult or health action plan, but I completely, I think it's a really important point and thank you for raising it, we should at least be looking at educating families when we send out our comms, so that's an opportunity to support parents as well, and hopefully improve their children's oral health as well, so I think it's a really good point and thank you. I was going to ask about the fluoride varnishing, and you mentioned that we're not doing it at the moment because of the cost, what sort of cost is involved in that? I actually, I did look this up and I don't have the figures to hand, I can send them to you though, it's, I mean it's not, per child it's relatively cheap, but when you look at it on a council level, I think it was, it was, if you were going to do even just targeted more deprived areas, it would be more than our current oral health promotion budget, which is around £60,000 and that plays for our health promotion promoter and a bit of other work, so we just, we don't have any more money for it, so we had hoped that we might be able to target the more deprived areas, but we actually don't have the money at all, so it's not something that we can do at the moment, but I can get you the exact figures, I'm sorry I mentioned that before the meeting, because we did a piece of work around it last year, we thought there was a possibility there might be a bit of money, this year we don't, that isn't even a consideration, but I can, I can send the figures through, I'm sorry I should have them to hand. And just to follow up, how successful is that? Because I gather from people I know whose children have had the floor of varnishing, that they think it's been very successful. It is, yeah I mean it does, I don't know the exact, it is considered to be, the information I have is on cost effectiveness, and it's considered to be very cost effective in terms of if you have put floor varnish on children's teeth, they're much, much more likely, much less likely to need to have any kind of dental procedures which obviously cost more money, of course that's saving to the NHS, and the floor varnishing if we're delivering it is a cost to us, so it's a bit about the lack of join up in the system, but so it is an effective intervention, as is high quality supervised tooth brushing, which is actually considered to be more cost effective, and is the intervention that will be, has been selected, and has the advantage of also promoting good oral health throughout life as well. It's about getting the fluoride onto the children's teeth, and both do that. Supervised tooth brushing also improves oral hygiene and affects that habit throughout life, and is an opportunity to give other oral health promotion and healthy weight messaging because they go hand in hand. It does seem, I was going to ask the same question as Cornelius, I think the report says how effective floor varnishing is, so it seems a shame. It is a shame. Yeah, I'm not, we'd want to do it, we'd want to do both. I mean it is possible for children to access it, but only children whose parents are not able to access the dentist and take them to it, so yeah, it's not that we don't want to deliver full eye varnishing, it's that we do not have the funding, and every other NCL borough delivers it to some extent, some have targeted programmes, some have universal programmes, but every other, and we are the only one not delivering it. Thank you. Carrying on from that, I thought I'd read something about the fluoride varnishing being free in NHS dentists. It is. And then that made me wonder how many of people, maybe specifically children, are registered at NHS dentists in Bournick as opposed to to private ones. So we think about an estimated 45% of children in Bournick have had a recent NHS dentist appointment, and so it would be, obviously some of those would be under three who won't receive the varnish, some of those may have, parents may have declined to have it, or the child may have declined, not all just, sometimes very young children just don't cooperate, understandably, but we'd be hope that the majority of those children received the fluoride varnishing, but I can't obviously be certain of the numbers. Does that mean we don't know how many children are getting private dental appointments? No, I don't have that data. I don't know, there will be some children having private dental appointments. That number could be could be quite a lot higher than theirs. There will be some children receiving private dental treatment. It's true. So, but yeah, I don't know the number, but we can assume that a large number of children are not receiving dental treatment. Thank you. I just want to follow on from that. When we were doing the GP access report, we noted that there was a decline in GPs in Bournick. I know we're talking about the decline in children actually seeing dentists. I wondered if there was a decline in the number of dentists, as well as the decline in the number of dentists actually offering NHS appointments. Do we have that figure? I can obtain it. I think last minute there were some, there was some kind of client, but I need to check that it's old data, so I can ask the Dental Committee for that information because they have registered dentists. I'm sorry, I don't have it to hand. Just a follow up question. You talk about paying attention to the five most deprived wards. I just wonder if you can say what you're doing in those five most deprived wards. So, at the moment, it's promoting a supervised tooth brushing programme in early years in those wards, but the hope is that our comms programme will also focus on those wards, working with health ambassadors and potentially community groups to promote oral health messaging as well. Because obviously we want to make it across the life course, at least for children, and as was stated earlier, it's a good idea to focus on adults as well, but also we want to capture those children who are not in early years settings. And in fact, when I say early year settings, it's only nursery and preschools. We're not working with child minders in this programme, so there are obviously children and child minders and children not in an early year setting, so yeah. It's a very difficult issue this, but thank you very much for what you've done, but we obviously need to come back to some of this because it has shown a very concerning report. Thank you for doing that. Yeah. Any more questions from members? And Sarah has a hand up. Sarah has a hand up. Sorry. I don't think you can see, but Sarah has a hand up. Sorry. Would that be okay for me to come in? Yes. Can you hear me okay? Yes, we can hear you. Okay. I hope I'm not shouting. I'm trying to speak loudly. Yeah, no, thank you so much, Emma. It's a really important discussion. Just to feedback in terms of the postcode checker on the internet, we do get feedback from people on our inquiry line that they have found quite often that that's not always accurate, so it will say on there that a dentist is taking new NHS referrals, but then when you phone up, they're not actually taking them, so we've had that experience a few times in terms of the travel side of it. I mean, just to say as well, I mean, I suppose there's the national issue and then the local issue, and it's quite difficult for us to impact on that national issue, but I'll put the link in the chat. I would really encourage people, maybe constituents if they want to share their experiences with Health Watch Barnet. We do share that with Health Watch England regularly, and it helps to build up a national picture. They use that a lot in their campaigns. But yeah, I mean, I just really agree in terms of the comm side of it. Obviously, Barnet Council is very much doing what it can, and I think maybe at the health and wellbeing board, we could have a discussion. I know there's lots of other pressures on the integrated care board, but anything further that can be done in terms of communications and with adults as well. I think given that it's quite limited at a local level, what we can do about the budget issue, that I think would be a great thing to focus on. Yeah. Thank you for that, Sarah. And thank you, Emma, for this report. I know there's a lot of work going into it, and perhaps you can come back with some of the information that you've been asked for when you can. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Next, we're going to take the next item as a cancer center update because we have a speaker. Just before we move on to the next item, I know we requested the end of the last meeting. Can we really try and push not to have hybrid speakers? Because we can't do proper scrutiny when we can't hear them properly online. We can't ask proper questions. It makes it really frustrating. And also, I'd also say we get presentations that are the same as what's in the report. We've all read the report. We've all read our papers. I think it would be more productive as a committee to have more time asking questions and to really have them here in person. I know there's some occasions where they can't. Committee after committee, we're having people online. You can't do proper scrutiny like that. Sorry, that's a bit of a no disrespect to the people that joined online, but it does make it really difficult. Thank you. I don't know the circumstances why the speaker couldn't hear, but sometimes it is. That's the only way we can do it. Sure. So, if I may add, I take responsibility. I said to Emma she could join remotely because I'm very conscious that my staff work all day and have families and so on. So, noted for the future. Thank you. Yeah, we're going to take the item number 10 on the Matt Vernon update and you've probably seen from, sorry, just to welcome Speaker Jessamie Kinghall. Now, the partnerships and engagement, it says here, NHS East England. You've probably seen that this is about a strategic review of the work of this centre kind of non-specialist surgical care and proposal to relocate to from to Watford General and obviously there are a certain number of patients who attend this service from NCL you've seen and a certain number 106 from Barnard. So, obviously we have an interest. They've set up a joint health scrutiny committee to look at this and I think there's an issue you know how much we are and how we sit on the committee how much we obviously want to be kept informed. So, perhaps the speaker could just briefly the importance of this and what's the best option for us to be involved. Thank you very much and thank you for having me. I work for NHS England in the east of England for the specialised commissioning team. As in east of England we've actually delegated our specialised commissioning services to the ICBs. So, I'm working on behalf of the ICBs in east of England as well and because this service crosses two three regions I'm also working on behalf of the NHS in London and the southeast. So, it's a little bit complicated but the main thing is actually why we need to make some changes and I'm hoping that that's come across in the paper. I wasn't planning on going through the paper reference to your comment earlier. If I had been I'm not now. But I think what I would say is we have got to the stage now where we have to act. This has been reviewed numerous times over the previous years. There's always been a reason why a solution hasn't been found. We need to resolve this. We've gone since this the clinicians raised concerns we have the independent review. We have gone through every permutation we can think of to try and work out what is the right solution for this big population across such a large geography. And I think I'm now really keen that all those who are we've obviously worked quite closely with those with the larger population footprints. We've undertaken engagement we had back in 2021. We had some north central London patient focus groups to try and see what the impact was on north central London and actually they generally speaking were quite positive about the proposals. It was harder to engage when I say hard I don't mean it was more difficult for me to engage with the population. A lot of them didn't associate Mount Vernon as their service so we're more reluctant to get involved and to commit the time. But we did have some people who did get very involved. And I've got all the data in the paper there so you can see the number of patients that's impacted and what the kind of activity levels are. I will just say I just I did a bit of a comparison after submitting this paper on what it was like pre-covid 19 which I thought you might be interested in. And there has been a slight reduction in the number of patients since then so there were 137 from Barnet in 1920. The majority of reasons are the same outpatient appointments radiotherapy and chemotherapy are the primary reasons people are traveling to Mount Vernon. And I think what we have seen since pre-covid times is a big shift in the proportion of outpatient appointments that are conducted by telephone. So prior to covid it would have been about four percent. It's now around 20 percent. It would have gone up higher during covid because obviously people weren't able to travel to the site and it's settled down a little bit now. So we know that times are changing as well and our planning is taking account of that. Obviously particularly with cancer services you need to there'll be a certain number of appointments that do need to be face to face and and some patients would prefer that. That's all been factored into the modeling. So when we are talking about the new cancer service we're also looking at how we can make it easier for patients to receive treatment closer to where they live. So that would mean is the local hospital doing all the chemotherapy it could be doing? You know are patients going to Mount Vernon that could be having that chemotherapy? So only the ones with the most complex needs need to travel or the most specialist care or the clinical trials that have to be carried out on the site. And also thinking about the things like virtual appointments and whether we're making the right use of those so that patients have that option. This development of a chemotherapy at home service which has proved really popular on the drugs it's being used for and patients have been able to go on holiday and receive their chemotherapies and address on holiday and carry on their treatment. So from a quality of life point of view that's been really really successful. So what we need to do now is really go to public consultation on our case for change and is this the right direction for this cancer center and as I say we have really struggled to find alternatives in fact we haven't been able to find any alternatives. So we are going to consult on a single option for the main relocation but with some slight movements and a potential network radiotherapy unit in the north. So my reason for coming here really is first of all to let you know and make sure you've had the opportunity to review this before we get to the consultation stage but also to ask you to have a think about how you'd like to be involved through that stage and Hertfordshire is doing all the legwork at the moment in terms of their local authority in establishing a joint committee. There'll still need to be a formal process to determine who's represented, how many, how is it proportionate, how is that managed, who chairs it, that kind of thing and there'll be another meeting with officers I think in the later in this month and there's just been a bit of change of personnel at Hertfordshire and Hertfordshire have about five and a half thousand patients just by way of comparison. So I think it's probably easier if I just take questions to be honest and if that's okay. Thank you for that, yeah there is the three options in terms of our involvement in this in the future but before I ask other questions generally to the speaker Emma. Hi I'm gonna contradict Councillor Wakeley, apologies, as a resident and somebody that isn't probably as clever or understanding as a lot of people here I have no idea what this item really is about as somebody with disabilities doesn't read very well I and as somebody that would be logging on and watching this video I thought this is, I do understand what you're saying like oh we've read the items but let's be honest the general public probably hasn't and I would really appreciate like a one minute explanation and I'm sorry if that annoys people, so yeah apologies. One minute is going to be a big challenge but no I understand completely and so the issues we're trying to address is some clinicians at the cancer centre which is in Northwood came to us with some concerns about the sustainability of the service now the main problem there are crumbling buildings and all sorts of things like that that isn't the main problem the main problem is that there are no longer support services on the site like critical care so the cancer centre is a standalone cancer centre it's on a site owned by Hillingdon hospitals but it's not the main hospital so it no longer has overnight facilities it no longer has any sort of theatres, anaesthetics, they have to bring that all in from other hospitals if a patient becomes unwell while they're on the site they have to be transferred out so if you're having chemotherapy treatment for example on site and you become unwell and you are particularly if it's a heart condition or something like that you will be sent in an ambulance to Watford general hospital or Hillingdon hospital and that means that there are a number of things like trials that the teams can't apply to do it means there are some treatments they can't do because they require the backup of having things like critical care on the site so hematology is a really good example because that used to be provided at Mount Vernon because of the advances in hematology cancer treatment and the national service specifications now require critical care to be provided so all of the hematology so all of the blood cancer work has had to move from Mount Vernon into your age now that means for patients and yes from here but also from places like Stevenage and Luton and central Bedfordshire they are traveling into London for that treatment that they should be able to get more locally not necessarily at their local hospital but at a cancer center for their population the Mount Vernon population is about two and a half million if you take out that cancer center because it can't provide the modern cancer care those patients have to travel into either into London or into Cambridge or to Oxford and and so it's just got to the stage now where the we're at the tipping point with what services can be provided and and we need to make these changes now so moving it to a hospital site in still in its own building still not run by Watford hospital and we're hoping it will be run by uclh that have that specialist cancer expertise and there'll be a link bridge to Watford hospital so that clinicians and patients can be taken across Luton patients when they need to so as a patient you're having your cancer treatment there's a cardiologist on hand there's critical care beds on hand there's if you have diabetes they consult with diabetes experts and everyone which they just can't do at the moment and the future of cancer care suggests that we definitely need that yeah that's helpful more than more than a minute though it's valuable no no not at all um just cancel bonds i am i i assume that provision of this new facility is going to be quite expensive do you do you have the money um short answer is no um i think i think it's safe to say that this time all projects are being reviewed um what we do have is permission to move to the next stage of public consultation we need to go through our own assurance process um which is what we're about to kick off which hence wanting to sort of give you early early notice rather than coming to you at the point of consultation and we we are in the unusual position and that we have that support to go ahead to the next phase despite not having identified the capital um we know that there is a review going on of the new whole program and all the big capital schemes we've been told that we can carry on um which we're taking as good news and i think every time we've had conversations with national colleagues and others it's become really clear there isn't really an alternative and so we need something we're going to need to spend some money and and if we don't we could actually end up spending a lot more for us for starters and so i think there's acceptance that this is a priority that's not the same as having the money it's still um another hurdle we'll have to cross and it could still pose a problem what it will do is give the consultants and the clinical staff some certainty that that there is agreement about the future direction that there is a plan and an intention and to move it to an acute site and we're hoping that that will give us some um recruitment and power and and other things as well and just make sure people are particularly on the site but also patients and others are confident that there is a future for the service there's a mini smith thank you very much chair uh one thing that struck me about your report was how few patients from barnet and north london in general are going to mount vernon where do our patients go because we i'm quite sure we have a high level of cancer patients in barnet yes i don't have the statistics on where they go but i know that some of the patients go into uclh um from from this area from the north central london perhaps that's the main um center um i think i mean i can certainly get back to you with that i think because it crosses regions in terms of the data and who enter data we haven't always been able to pull that together um unless we're asked for it and we can we can go make those requests and i have to say i was quite surprised as well because there are patient there are more patients from further away in other directions but i think it's to do with the location of other provisions so london is quite well served for cancer centers um so um and it's also to do with the referral hospital and the direction that they send patients in and uh northwick park and and other hospitals have got um quite good links and then sort of middle sex hospitals have got quite good links in with some of the london hospitals so you will there'll be a couple of factors that will determine where you are referred and one of them will be your tumor site um so what type of cancer it is and where is that specialist place for that cancer and if there is a specialist place that's relatively close you you may well go and have all your treatment there mount vernon's a non-surgical center so you only go there for the um non-surgical treatments um and i think the other thing is really a consultant where the consultant pathways and some of them have joint appointments with other hospitals so for example hospitals in london but i can get you that data i'm sure and the implications for the you know there's a small number of violent patients i think you say that the travel is you know it's okay because they train lines etc to what other implications for traveling and getting to treatment and are you also interested in the chemotherapy at home that then i'm a patient as much as anyone else in terms of not having to travel yes so the chemotherapy at home um is run by the mount vernon team so they will assess all of their patients regardless of where they're from for their suitability and if they think a patient is suitable they will invite that patient participate on the trial some patients don't want to they're a bit off-putting or they might have a needle phobia or something they don't want to do that themselves they receive then all the training and that's some of that is at mount vernon and so they won't be the chemotherapy at home trials it's all sort of backpack kind of and chemotherapy and sometimes it's the patient who's trained or sometimes it's their carer but they're not put on that course of chemotherapy until they're the clinicians are satisfied that that's a safe option for them and there are some patients who don't go ahead with it who are through the training or start the training and some patients have longer training than others um but it's the the feedback from it has been really really successful in terms of the travel times the modeling suggests that the average and average from everyone that lives in north central london and the current site is about 38 minutes that's probably a bit optimistic and modeling always is isn't it and the new site would be 30 minutes and that's by car and that doesn't that's an average and it's an average it was taken at nine o'clock on a tuesday morning before covid and that was when the modeling was done and train line wise is the patients that have told us it's it's good um we've had a number of patients i've spoken to are quite familiar with whatford as a site and they they were quite positive about the public support links um a number of them would like the metropolitan line to be extended but i think that's beyond our gift halo i just wanted to ask if if training goes ahead would any of the other facilities that are there now providing service with that place so there are quite a few different services provided by different organizations on that site um so everything that's associated with the cancer center including the paul strickland scanner would move um there is a private hospital that does theater which is actually where mount burnham do their brachia therapy at the moment that would stay where it is although the plan is to have a brachytherapy theater so that patients wouldn't need to be sent back to that hospital um there is a day hospital on the site which has outpatient appointments that's run by hillingdon that will stay um they are actually using the site to decant they're building a new hospital that the hospital they are decanting services from the hillingdon site onto the mount vernon site to free up space and enable the works so actually there will be more in the short term more health services on the northwood site and and they have a long-term plan for it so would the patient get a choice so there wouldn't be cancer services on the northwood site so if you are a cancer patient that has been referred by your local hospital to the mount vernon cancer service whatever it's known as and you would be going to the site unless there was an outreach clinic or an outreach service at your local hospital and also then all the other facilities need to be there because if somebody is receiving treatment obviously they can't come on public transport they may not be able to go back on the public transport so then you say car park and stuff like that is that yes so car parking is very much on our radar and it's a conversation we're having with west arts hospitals around um how we can make sure that our our patients um have the spaces that they need um west arts do have a relatively new multi-story car park which has hugely improved parking on that site um that's not to say that with the addition of a cancer center it could beat everybody it could serve everybody and they have a site plan for their site there are spaces on the site that there is potential to do something else obviously council needs to be involved and so on as well because there are targets around car parking and we feel very strongly that if you're having cancer treatment you you'll be able to get to sites and and most people do travel by car and for some for quite a lot of patients they are encouraged to come by car not by transport they uh immuno compromised condition that they're in i suppose if you ask the average resident who happens to be a cancer patient if they'd like to travel to a facility a new facility that is closer to where they live with better transport links i suppose um the average response to the consultation would be quite positive however i think one thing that wasn't quite clear from this contribution was whether there would be any impact on overall cancer cancer care capacity across the multiple integrated care boards that are that are impacted by the closure of this one facility that previously catered to 13 000 patients so i guess the simple question is are the shorter travel times offset by longer waiting lists i think i can help you with that one so and there are when we went around looking at all of the options closing the hospital was you're right there is not the capacity for all those patients in existing cancer centers we're not proposing to do that the closing the site we're basically lifting it up and putting it into a new building so the activity is exactly the same it will do exactly the same for exactly the same patients it does now minus or plus some changes some tweaks around the edges so for example some of the patients in brenton ealing which is quite far south of the patch there is actually a cancer center closer to them than the current mount burner site um and the suggestion is that those patients may prefer to use a local cancer center that's all been modeled and the capacity is there we've also modeled in growth um we we did some modeling on growth back in 2019 20 and we did growth for five years and 10 years and 30 and we've updated it and one of the things that we can see is that the prediction was pretty much spot on for where we are now so those first five years so that's given a level of confidence that we've built in enough capacity so the new cancer center will still treat that population of 13 000 patients um across all of those areas um and we are looking at putting some additional services in where we need to so it will also mean that um will uh the hematology being an example if the patients from harper and bedfordshire who are currently going into uclh for hematology go to the new cancer center and we put in additional beds an additional space for those patients that helps uclh a little bit with some of their space for their growth that they're expecting in in that area of london so we've worked really closely across the regions and the icbs to make sure that what we're doing is we're helping each other out and we're not changing um we're not putting pressure on any system does that make sense uh i think we'll draw this to a close a bit um we've got this we've been asked to comment on our involvement to the pre-option committee one is to be involved in full joint committee uh taking necessary steps which probably i would suggest is not uh necessary that's option b to attend joint committee meetings and interested party participating discussions affecting the barnum population but not undertaking a formal scrutiny role and c is not for test not take part in the joint committee but just receive formal as part of the public consultation so i don't know what members i mean i would suggest we don't need to be on the full committee given the whole number of patients but we might want to be kept in full should be any any views on b or c but whether we sit on this shooting committee or we just get information um any views yes center sergeant yes thank you very much i just want to know what sort of officer time would be involved in the the opposite time in a us taking part in scrutiny committee for instance so i can answer as best i can i'm i'm speaking on behalf of healthful health organization to speak on behalf of a local authority um but um harper are expecting or have provisionally um offered to undertake the support for the joint scrutiny committee so i think there is an assumption that as the largest patient population for the cancer center they would chair the committee and therefore support it from an officer point of view and we have had one officer meeting and planning to have another one so it would be occasional meetings just to make sure that we're keeping all the committees as informed as they'd like to be particularly for the committees who aren't so involved i don't think for a committee that chose a lesser level of involvement there would be a significant officer involvement i i think the officer involvement is really going to come down to hopfordshire and hillington probably is the two most invested um are people happy with the third option that we um you know we don't actually take part in the committee but we will receive the football the path of formal communication and get and get full information are people happy with that yeah do i see you're not happy i think given the general unanimity if people are agreeable we go with people are happy with that i mean yeah option b is you actually uh take part in discussions but you're not in a formal scrutiny role you're represented by option the others c is just information sorry chair would it be would it be you that goes up um for option b would it be you that attends the committee going sorry if we took up if we voted for option b and it would be worth to join the committees would it be a councillor or a member of the committee going or would it be officer time i'm just trying to i'll try and ask this i did speak to um the scrutiny officer at to hopfordshire earlier on today and i think the and these options are what the proposal is at the moment option b could change a little bit option c could change a little bit and i'm more than happy to come and update committee um anytime that you like and i think from um uh i think it would be for the for the those sessions and they're going the idea is that they're themed sessions they might look at radiotherapy they might look at chemotherapy they might look at travel and access for example um and those sessions it would be a member of the committee um i think there is a planning session that would be for an officer um obviously it's a public consultation so there'll be other opportunities um to get involved as well and as individuals as much as as committee um so so i would expect and and the the there'll be a an invitation to um a site visit ahead of setting up the joint committee that will be we're just trying to find a date in october and there'll be go out to i think all the chairs and vice chairs and officers um if somebody wanted to delegate it i don't think there's a problem with that okay so um i'm going to suggest we take option c but um but we will but we'll kept informed and we'll ask for speaking we'll ask for information if we need to be further down the road is that agreeable to the committee okay uh that's we're going to recommend yeah okay um but um should we have a formal vote to clarify the position i know what would be your objection well um i wouldn't want to just give it away everything that i would rather opt for option b um only because it's the bernard patient so we need to have not just an update but if there is something um that the scrutiny committee should be made aware of we need that pathway standard for the final patient emma what's it you prefer i wouldn't mind doing option b or option a but i would um i don't know because i don't know like the what this constituency is but i'd be happy to represent the committee if that's what's needed so apologies that's why i'm saying i don't want to do that so can i so my understanding is it's last year it was 106 patients from barneth out of the 12 000 that attempt so that's i think that's why i'd be more keen to say that option c would be fine only because it's such a small percentage of the overall patients i do still think we should have a say and i understand what you're saying but it's just very small the patients but sorry you can disagree emma sorry i'm going to take a vote i'm going to take a vote on this it's probably the best way to resolve it um so um those in frame should see they put their hands up um it's a small number we need to keep the interest of our of the viral patients in the forefront get information sorry i was i was just saying to say perhaps we could all be called the dates of the meeting and the theme of the meeting so that if anybody did want to go and attend they could and emma can always go attend or any of us can say anyone do you mean a member well a member of the committee a bit like attending the josque if we want to any of us are welcome to go so if we knew the dates then that means we are kept informed and it's at some if there may be an occasion for us to attend a further meeting and when the plans come near to fruition because although i think you leave it a bit hazy if we say any member of the committee will attend that's it's a bit sort of halfway out so i would suggest that we go with option c for the most um i'm not suggesting sorry that we shouldn't go with option c but i was saying that if we could have the dates as the public are going to be invited as well surely if we felt like going it would be nice to go question mark yeah i mean my expectation is that these will be public meetings and there's no reason why we wouldn't circulate uh the dates for those meetings and i can work with and make sure that i have no problem with that council the public meetings and people want to go you know it's just the form of our formal position and we'll be doing a lot of workshops and other things and if anyone in an individual capacity would like to get involved we're always looking to hear from patients in the public we've done a huge amount of work early on throughout this so i'm i'm never going to turn away a patient or member of the public from from getting involved thank you very much for your contribution uh today thank you very much and hopefully we'll be kept informed thank you thank you for the questions they're really good questions okay um we're going on to we're going on to option eight now and uh thank you councilor law for your patience i think you're probably used to kind of uh not being the first in the line but uh yeah thank you um yeah helpful you could give us yeah i know i've got a big voice but i know we've got people online so on what's coming up and things that you're feeling to know about from the cabinet and the well-being board thank you thank you well i thought i would just focus on the development of the next joint health and well-being strategy um of course i'm happy to take questions on on other issues and then i've got one little issue at the end that i'll i'll pick up so i just want to set it in context obviously i'd like one of the starting points for the joint health and well-being strategy is that it needs to be founded in good data and so um the joint strategic needs analysis um has a new joint strategic needs analysis was published during the summer there's a member training session next week actually um for so you're all able to get to grips with it and i hope you'll have a chance to listen into that and then get on the site and interrogate it yourself so it's a pivotal digital resource it's on a new platform um so it's um we hope is adding both depth as well as breadth to the data um it is it's obviously excuse me it's obviously really important um for public health but actually one of the uh one of the things that i was really keen to do was was also make it was a strong data resource for services right the way across the council and i'll come back in a minute to to the role they play in health so that's it depth as well as breadth so it's framed around the people place and planet mantra and so that recognizes the very real role of a wider range of services and issues around wider determinants of health so i think that's a really important part of our mission around starting living and aging well but it's also the depth of data where it's been possible to take it down towards sub-ward levels um i think that's really important to look at our health inequalities because often our average figures across the borough will look quite um on a par with london uh or the wider england figures but actually there are pockets of deprivation there are pockets of health inequalities across the borough and obviously one of our roles is to is to find those and start to work on how we can combat that it's a really important starting point for the uh joint health and well-being strategy i just wanted to um remind everyone um about the joint health and well-being strategy um it is the the document that sets the framework alongside its underlying action plans that supports the work of the health and well-being board and our partnership working with the nhs and that's developed significantly over the last several years because of that closer working um with the nhs um the previous current of health and well-being strategy uh runs from 2021 to 25 and i think if council stock were here actually at the meeting she would agree that of the development of that strategy through 2020 you know in the midst of covid lockdowns didn't it did limit the amount of collaborative and consultative work that um that could be done as part of that so we have an opportunity with this next strategy um to to do that um so we're in the final year of the current strategy um we've been delivered on the uh the actions um as part of that each health and well-being board generally that we won't in the september meeting but generally we take a deep dive at the beginning of the meeting for the first hour into key areas often um taking evidence both from council officers about strategic elements but also from nhs partners and voluntary sector partners and i just cite one example of that when we looked at heart health during the spring um we had both council officers talking about the strategy we had community health partners as well as key nhs partners talking about it we also had our health ambassadors talking about their work around and cud um cardiovascular disease that they're doing with key community groups where the prevalence is higher and its impacts on people's life expectancy and healthy life expectancy but we also had a clinician and for all three trust who was talking about the acute work that goes on and some of very innovative projects that they're working on to keep people with heart problems at home and in the community rather than in acute hospitals so we try to bring all of that together as a package um so um what we're looking to do um as we go forward is to um we're looking to define the areas that we're going to focus on over the next four years um and obviously that's in the service of our mission around um helping people live longer healthier lives but actually also tackling inequalities and um we're also very keen to look at areas where we can best add value because there are a lot of partners in this space and we've got to look at those areas where we can best add value as part of that so our timetable for for doing that is that in may we approve the joint strategic needs analysis at the health and well-being board and we um set the joint health and well-being strategy development timetable um from then until um until now it's been a question of developing the narrative on barnet based on the joint strategic needs analysis work because some of that was still a work in progress at that point um looking at desktop reviews around partner strategies so we're aligned and making sure we're adding value around those strategies not least the um the north central london icb health inequalities and population strategy no point in reinventing the wheel it's about adding value um and then looking at desktop reviews of resident engagement on health so we're drawing initially from from from some of those issues that come up um we also be looking at some of the work that the health the a hospice done as well conversation with key partners and then formalizing that input from the vcs and residents in in developing that initial draft um we'll take that at the september um health and well-being strategy at joint at the health and well-being board meeting um and then we'll go into phase during the autumn of co-production with partners um particularly working with the um the uh bonnet um e nhs partners there'll be some co-production with residents um there will be co-production with internal office member stakeholders of which you are a chunky part and developing a draft document and looking at the equalities impact assessment and the health assessment um so that we'll be bringing back a draft document to our january health and well-being board and then during the strip this later winter and spring we'll be consulting formally on that document reviewing and amending that updating our our eqia and health impact assessment on the basis of that and then developing the implementation plans that sit below it and the kpis that will drive and measure that so that we know what we're doing but we also need to know that we've done it and so there's kpis there's key performance indicators and in may 25 so next day um as we finish up on the 21 to 25 plan um we will publish and agree um the joint health well-being strategy and its plans and kpis for 25 to 29 takes us almost to 2030 um so as part of that timetable i expect and welcome input from you as a committee both in your member stakeholder role but actually also in that role of scrutinizing a challenge in the health and well-being board um and so i um have questions but it's a really important part of our our work around developing our health agenda and health and uh attacking health inequalities and then finally one quick footnote at the previous meeting you were talking about um cancer diagnosis and um just wanted you to be aware um that is what you'll be aware as part of that that there is some degree of health inequalities across the borough there's um there is inequality of uptake with some of our communities particularly for routine testing like cervical breast and prostate cancer and we um have we're optimistic about getting a grant jointly with harangay um to work on ways to tackle that um lack of uptake in some communities and it'll be using our health ambassadors um and that's very much about looking at peer coaching and peer work so that we get into those communities and understand why they're resistant why they're not taking up those opportunities and making sure that we give them those opportunities and encourage them to do so so happy to take any questions on that but looking forward to um another the next eight months or so of developing the next strategy doing that in partnership any questions on this or you know general wider health matter more than a question it's just about um it's also mental health service is he being looked at at the same time we in the current strategy there is a strand around mental health um it has it's clearly probably it's clearly an area that um that is of concern um and we've got obviously the um our our um mental health trust is going through um has been going through changes but um they are at a point so the barner and harangay mental health trust is working very closely with and will become part of a single trust with um the camden and islington trust so um yes i hope we will we will have a strand that sits around that but that's subject to the working that we all do during the autumn in terms of developing that strategy but we've had a couple of quite meaty sessions um with the mental health trust actually or with mental health as an item on our agenda but yeah i i think um post-clovid particularly but not only it's a really important area so i would look to be doing that yeah yes i know they're coming up later um but i'm just wondering with the um i think it was did you say health champions um i'm wondering if that's something you do through health watch and how you're going about that and i always keep bringing up things like boost and things like that and getting the word out there because i'm finding that you'll bring up lots of interesting things so yeah two strands um our health champions are a broader group set up initially as kovid champions um during um during lockdown a number i know of people around the this committee and across member the member body have been part of that but it draws on members of the community and it uh have um lots of lots of briefings some online now some online meetings and and team working um but um and some of those um individuals have gone on to be trained as mental health champions as well so um they run sessions in libraries and listening sessions in libraries there's quite a lot of work there that's relatively low key but it's that's at a general level but it's very much about sharing information having discussions and helping people cascade that out to their resident or community group contacts health ambassadors are a rather more sophisticated they are there is some remuneration involved they are part of particular communities where we have challenges within engagement as well as access and they are they take on a much more proactive role within their communities and so we have an ambassador win within the Somali community who's been working very much with uh well on a whole range of issues within the community also uh within the Romanian community because there were very particular issues there but there are there are ambassadors in a number of communities and areas and healthy hearts program comes under thinks in that and those are run health champions is run through ground works um and the ambassadors program is is also um is part run there as well so yes health what does have a have a link into it but it's it's specifically through ground works um and the principle really is actually so much of this is about confidence and behavior change um and and helping people understand we've got a wonderfully diverse borough but people come with really different histories in terms of their knowledge and engagement with health services some of our migrant communities health monitoring has been the last thing on their mind when they had existential um you know they've been in war-torn areas so it's about helping them understand the things that they can do to stay healthy and and have healthy as well as long lives but also childhood vaccination uptake um is a key area at the moment because the the measles um as well so it's it's right the way across the piece it's some of it's about healthier longer lives and some bits about children's vaccinations and health um yeah just following on that do you see um in terms of the strategy going forward for work on to do with ethnic minorities um for the black community we know about the um the instance of mental you know mental illness mental health just proportionate in some of these communities do you see that as a a a bigger area of work for the future i think we've got to be clear about the areas where we can make an impact and that's why i cited the healthy hearts project because cardiovascular disease clearly does have a disproportionate impact on some communities it ties in so to smoking to diabetes to keeping fit and active and so there's a whole nest of issues um and levers we have to support people to get better half do a better heart health um but the same would be true to a great degree around um around mental health for example in particular communities so if it's underpinned by health inequalities and we we can see proactive levers i think it's that's really important about how we bring those partners together to do that but i also think there's the work with peers and so this is really important because with all due respect sitting a set of us sitting around in the committee and telling people how they should all run their lives is a bit you know paternalistic it's about helping people to understand the benefits and supporting them in making those those changes and we have a lot of impact through fit and active bonnet actually helping people to to stay fitter and tackling you know we know we have a childhood a problem with childhood obesity in the world but actually there's also an issue around adult weight problems and weight control the other questions too most of them are emma did you want to i'm having to pick my question now sorry um uh i say i i'm just gonna pull something from the josh i'm sorry if that's not appropriate but um there was something in there about short-term contracts um and just that fact that a lot of the contracts for health and social care and all the things like that through the council tend to be a year or two years and apologies if i got this wrong but you were a lot of your plans tend to be for four years till 2029 and i'm just wondering and i don't know if you can come back and answer this but how how do you envision envision that working when you have to constantly change contracts and providers and there's no actual consistency and way of managing that so yeah well i guess the point of a strategy is thinking how you want to play how you want to develop your action plan around key um key um aims um but yes i think there are some challenges around um around funding because quite a lot of what we do is grant funded within the public health grant or within other um funding streams and so there is a tendency to have to have contracts and renewals but building that in um as far as possible into a longer-term strategy means that we're thinking ahead um we're not just saying no it'll it'll end that you're thinking you're thinking ahead so for example the the grant that we're looking at for for the cancer um cancer diagnosis um cancer screening work is part of an ongoing program that we just some of it's opportunistic and this is this has come up but some of it is very much planned and you'll think ahead about contract renewals where you want to focus the next contract kind of some more uh in the absence of any further questions thanks very much for your update thank you and i'm looking to talking to you as part of this journey on the health and well-being strategy just to say i think we've got to get an apology from council edwards family member who's not well the minute the joss minutes are in the agenda um there were two meetings in may to do with quality accounts uh which i believe council barnes accounts jack about who were able to attend and that was after the previous main meeting uh which was to do with mental health uh issues so they looked at mental health in depth there's a lot of information there about um well obviously there's the quality accounts input into that and then um the the one on the 18th of march which was fighting mental health groups to come and listen to presentation on the icb so not just to note those minutes um i think the next item we're going on is to look at and agree the primary care the gp fast and finish group report um which you should have been seen in the papers um and uh i just want to say i thought it read very well and there was you know was very impressive document in terms of research um that went into it um and the the issues for the public and the creases in demand and um the group obviously got to communicate changes and changes in primary care you know to the public uh this recommendation i gather council smearing smith and if you want to say a few words and maybe the other members i think council bonds i'm not sure council sergeant we want that in the gp you know if any other members okay that's probably you're all you're on it right okay so i don't yeah thank you chair on behalf of council stop i'm very pleased to have the opportunity to present this particular report and particularly want to thank all the members of the committee who are involved clearly we have council bonds council pearlman sergeant well as obviously council stock herself and in particular the work that tracy scollan has done to produce this excellent report on our behalf and we're extremely grateful there are three principal represent recommendations coming out of this report in terms of process which is set out in the beginning papers which i'm sure you're very familiar with and don't need me to address the main recommendations in this report are contained on page six one has to be absolutely honest we are not the nhs these are issues primarily that have to be addressed by the nhs they're not going to be dealt with by barnet we have made some specific recommendations that we like suggest go forward which are about communication with the count with presidents generally barnet about the roots into the nhs and various services we talk about the funding to support the large and increasing population i had a particular problem i tried to analyze the spreadsheets used by the nhs to allocate funding to try and work out how they calculate the money for barnet it was an impossible task because they don't give you the really and they just put a batch of numbers down and it's impossible to track how they've done it not an impressive performance and i was unable to get much further with that but we do clearly need more into barnet because of the aging population which is not to take an account of as i understand it we do need to work on communication between the primary and secondary sectors very important something that came up frequently our meetings with various surgeries people from the nhs and again telephony was an important factor which we gradually get improved fundamentally the issue that came out loud and clear the desperate shortage of resources in the primary sector a lack of gps many are many of them going part-time just uh that's way beyond the current capacity of the system that's quite tough for us to address uh i'd say it's uh very impressive and a lot of a lot of data in the backup the recommendations i wonder if any other members committee would like to account to sergeant i'd like to tribute of the dire shortage of resources i think i ought to just put something in into the minds of the committee that one of the gps we were interviewing actually put his head in his hands that's how concerned he was and i know we say dire but i really was extremely concerned and i think you know i'd just like to reiterate what she said i think it's on its knees we're not the first people to say that it's on its knee um um tracy very has very well put some of the um the attempts that are being made in terms of providing additional resources in terms of other practitioners but it's not really going to be sufficient i think because we have this dire concern i mean the fact we've got fewer gps now i think that is the overriding concern i have there are fewer gps now than there were and we have an increasing population uh and i know the you know and i know people are desperately trying to find other ways to do it but however you you mix it it is still extremely concerning and i think it needs to be looking at what practices are into this epp putting his head in his hands when we were being when we were interviewing him would you like to agree with me well i can totally confirm what council sergeant was saying i think the fundamental problem though is that we're desperately short of medical school places in this country that is a problem that's going to take 15 20 years and so on and very little movement has taken place on this issue and frankly the whole trend of having more part-time gps gps is has put greater pressure on the whole system i personally have a lot of experience with it because my ex-wife with the gp and then a consultant daughter is my son-in-law i've worked in here so i've seen this over the last 40 50 years and it's getting far worse i have no obvious solution um yes because you're clearly asking the itb to have a communications campaign to inform social work videos and leaflets to inform patients about changes to the system that doesn't necessarily help them to create more gps but public information i assume the recommendation of funding uh part of this is to take account of the elderly the aging population in barnet increasing number of older people increasing number of people discharged so you're asking them to look again at funding no doubt they will cite one of the national funding issues but i i guess that's where it's coming from well that's actually right chair because when you actually try and look at the numbers what you discover is what they've done with the numbers is they don't take the actual population of barn they show you pre-weighted numbers so they've already done some calculations you've no idea what those are you don't know to what extent they've taken account of the aging population we have and we certainly can't compare that with other places and try to get that information seem to be an impossible task i'd be happy to spend as much time as possible on it it just wasn't the uh you know i and others have raised the issue about funding formula on it and so perhaps this will be a way in to engaging the icb on that whole discussion um uh is there anything else uh obviously this will go to i'm not saying this will go to the once we've agreed it yes we'll go to cabinet subject to approval on the 21st council stock will be i don't i don't know if it's presented to stock can be there too but she's done a lot of work with this which is you know she's made important contributions to be able to help present it to cabinet uh right sarah did you want to i should be on this particular report please yeah i would like to yeah no it's fantastic to see the report and uh really appreciate all the work that's gone into putting it together absolutely agree with the recommendations um i mean i suppose it's just a bit of an update um that um we are i don't know how many of you are aware of this we're doing can people hear me okay you can hear me we can hear you yeah good good good sorry my dog's barking really loudly in the background slightly disconcerting sorry about that um so yeah we're doing a piece of work with health watch and field across north central london looking at primary character so we've been given a small amount of funding by the integrated care board and what we're doing is we're looking at gp websites so we're starting that work at the moment reviewing the gp websites in barnet we're going to do some mystery shopping work with phone lines and we're also going to be next year producing a guide to how to access your gp which is something health watch and field have done it's been very successful it's for the public we want to do the same in barnet so um that's what we're up to with that islington i don't apologies if people are already aware but islington gp federation have got the contract until march they're doing quite a bit of work with gp surgeries particularly in barnet around access and we're working with them so for example the recommendation around the phone lines in the report that's very much something that is in gp federation they're working in barnet as well very much something they're working on so just to let people know about that i mean i agree i think with the work to rule as well that's happening at the moment with gps it's even more urgent that people are aware of different options in terms of accessing primary care and i would be very happy we're doing various coms on that if there's someone in barnet council comms department or something who would be good for us to link in with i'd be really happy to do that there are quite a few materials sort of national materials already available that we use for our social media and that kind of thing which are quite useful like informing people about allied healthcare professionals that type of stuff so just putting all that out there yep thank you sarah that's very helpful it sounds like this report the right track as well in terms of what other people are doing um so uh sorry yes just before we wrap up because i i just want to say uh i think this was an example of a very good uh partnership between all the committee and i really would like to say not only did was did tracy do an excellent report but the committee were the the task and finish group worked extremely well together and i and i just wanted to to say that note that and um this would go to cabinet hopefully they um possibly agreed it uh they will approve it and this would then go to icb you know put pressure on uh then go to icb for comment and we want to action and we want to follow we will follow up what their responses are to this uh in our work program just one thing um where sarah has mentioned that that is linton are doing research into barnett's gps what why is that happening and barnett don't know i'm just a bit confused should we come back to just a side note yes we'll have dealing with the house watch report in a minute so yeah we'll pick that one up okay um is people happy to formally adopt this task and finish report um and uh send it to cabinet uh with our approval i agree thank you very much to all those who worked on it um you made it a bit of a hard act to follow for the the task and finish groups coming up um so the next item is the watch report which you've got in front of you and hopefully uh i know it's there if you want to make it so make a few comments obviously we've got the report but it's anything you want to mention that just deal with that point about so as emma's point about islington and uh you know a single out key work that you're doing thank you yeah sure so um yeah emma i understand your question can you all hear me well are you you can hear me okay you can hear me okay good good sorry i think there's a slight blip and i couldn't hear you yeah emma i understand the question um basically what happened the integrated care board for north central london they did an invitation to tender it was open to anybody to apply and islington gp federation i think it's accurate to say they they gave a really good bid and they are performing really well on it they were just the best provider that the integrated care board could find but they are working very closely we're meeting them with them very regularly about barnet they're working closely very closely with gp surgeries and barnet so and it's actually barn it's a particular focus for them so it's not we're not i wouldn't say that we're getting short changed in any way but we also need to be aware their funding goes on until march after that they will be moving on it's just the nature you know we've been talking about uh these projects but yeah that's i don't know if that helps but that's the um that's that's the deal with that i'm gonna so i have prepared a presentation um oh sorry i'm just gonna we've actually we've got the report okay you can keep it short just i will yeah sure so what are you thinking like two or three minutes or yeah just a couple of minutes on if you want to pick out the key points sure yeah i'll i'll whiz through this um and i'll say briefly about uh some things we've done in the last six months as well um yes so in uh 2023 to 24 more than a thousand people shared their experiences of health and social care with us over 13 000 came to us for information and signposting most of them through our website um yeah i won't go into all of this this is stats about what we're doing um this is our community connectors project on blood pressure we did over 960 blood pressure checks uh particularly working with people in more deprived areas and we had lots of positive feedback in terms of people not knowing they had high blood pressure finding that out and planning to take key actions like 28 percent of the people with high blood pressure plan to do more exercise um it's all that's all in the report we've been doing lots of work around sharing the learning from that working with colleagues in the health and well-being board cardiovascular disease test and finish group to get the recommendations implemented um we visited uh four care homes and also the two primary care walk-in centers we've made recommendations about improvements that could be made vast majority have been accepted and are being implemented um yeah our healthy heart project i think you're all aware of um worked with over 900 residents in the last six months of last year and we've continued into a third year now so we're really delighted to be able to continue that work a lot of that is about supporting people with health inequalities to get help from their gp and we've got stats showing that it's effective and doing that um we're also doing policy work coming out of that around like access to interpreters with the royal free london and it's very much feeding into our primary care project um we're doing a piece of work very interested to hear about the health and well-being board potentially doing stuff for our cancer screen we've been doing a piece of research on that particularly with global majority residents this is in the last few months over the summer looking at barriers to people accessing screening so that is something we're working on now is the analysis of that um yeah we're good to the details but we've got lots of interesting findings and we have been doing other work around hospital discharge with yourselves with this committee and in other areas feeding into the health and well-being strategy and working with the care quality commission so that's just like a really quick um overview and this is what we've got coming up we're continuing our healthy heart project we've got a second wave of our community connectors work we've got funding for that we're going to be looking specifically at mealtimes and care homes we're doing a thematic report and i've already talked about the primary care work that we're doing as well so yeah that's the very very quick version of that presentation um and you do have the annual report yeah thank you sarah uh you obviously work like you know you build partnerships with lots of groups in barner and um that's very impressive particularly on you know high blood pressure it's kind of a invisible problem in a way um i just wondered what what the learnings you have in terms of what's the most effective forms of communication you find with residents what you find works the best in the way that you approach them and try and communicate messages anything particular that you think works well yeah i mean broadly i mean i think i suppose there's two sides to it there's the online side of it and i think we do have to acknowledge of course not everybody can access the internet but most people do and most people do engage with social media so that is really important way to spread messages i mean i think images are really important they're simple messages links to information that's relevant for people you know all the standard things really plain english but i think really to reach out to these communities who are experiencing health inequalities face-to-face events are so important we managed to do 47 face-to-face events you know in partnership we collaborate with our partners um in the last year we worked really closely like our healthy heart project we were really closely with the smiley center of excellence um you know the barnet asian women's association and various grassroots groups and i think building up over time as well so now in the third year we're really starting to get with gp surgeries we're getting better connections with them and reaching um harder to or less heard groups through that we're reaching the nepalis community and um different nigerian community communities that we didn't have as many connections with over time we're building them up so i think you need both elements really are online and face-to-face and to keep reiterating things you know and um yeah listening to people's feedback really i i hope that gives a bit of a flavor um thank you thank you uh does members have any i think they'd like to ask uh council barnes okay thank you very much um you mentioned care home meal times and i wondered what what the focus was what you're particularly looking at uh with those yeah absolutely so what we'll be doing we work closely with the care quality team barnet council care quality team and the cqc obviously our role we don't have the powers that the cc has so we need to try and focus on things like uh you know the environment um conditions that could maybe be improved unchampioning the best practice so we're planning to go into five or six care homes we're starting this quite soon and we're going to be um yet observing the meal time talking to staff about meal times talking to the residents and any relatives we uh try to publicize its relatives so that relatives can come and talk to us as well just getting people's feedback and i'm imagining based on what we've done before it potentially maybe things around disability sorry around um dementia friendly decor and dementia friendly like meal place settings and that kind of thing choice for residents residents having some understanding of the different options you know if they have advanced dementia there's ways of communicating that to them those those are the types of things we think we'll be looking at and if we come across anything more serious we of course share that information with the care quality team and the cqc and they're following up on that we have done some reports which are on our website last year but we want to have this specific focus because we feel we can have more of an impact by having that specific focus on an area like meal times and the cqc really support that they've said look we can't look in as much detail as we'd like to but it really affects people's day-to-day life you know their experience of meal times so um yeah that's that's the sort of gist of what we're looking to do that okay thank you very much emma which is my choice um that uh joint funded project with emfield yeah is that focused on barnet residents as well yeah we we are focused on barnet um so what they've i don't know how much uh you know in terms of the icb figures but when you look at the gp patient survey there are more people who are dissatisfied in barnet compared to the other north central and numerous in terms of gp access so the way we've split it up we basically are doing half of the project and we're just focused on barnet and field is looking at enfield but also camden islington and harringay but because there's a larger number in barnet that's why um islington gp federation's very focused on barnet as well because there's more negative scores in terms of the gp patient survey yeah so so our work we collaborate with the others but our work on that is really focused on barnet yeah um just one other question but i don't know if it's for dawn really um so in terms of uh actually um letting uh residents and carers know about health watch yeah um so that they can report the issues that they're having and i know that health watch don't act as a advocate but it's not very well known i've only just found out about them myself yeah yeah i was wondering um i think council lately brought it up when we were having the royal free uh yearly review thing about the calendar of it and i was thinking about health watch is kind of similar to um a process like pals and what i notice is as a resident and somebody that receives services from the london borough barnet there isn't anything there to say that health watch exists and that's somewhere you can go so i was wondering if um health watch could be added to things in barnet at the end of correspondence and things like that yeah maybe i don't know barnet barnet council i'm just putting that out there it doesn't have to be barnet council website but i i can definitely be in touch with people about that yeah i've put something in the chat about that and we are i know i'm in i'm in touch with people at mencap because it'd be great to do some more joint publicity there because people can share their feedback with us their anonymous feedback we will signpost them we can't investigate their cases but we will record that feedback and we do use that you know really regularly in the work that we're doing so yeah i mean i don't know um i mean i've got a couple of contacts in um like barnet council comms people i could reach out to them and just see what would be appropriate in terms of that but we will yeah we can publicize the work of health watch yeah our publications and websites you said good point um um questions thank you very much sir for that input thank you date from the uh that's the finish groups she's just tells you about where we are they where they are and several of them seem to be you know going to be approved by their own committees and then going to cabinet which is good and including home education etc youth homelessness and uh the others that are ongoing work so there's a whole um it's a whole schedule there's only the in terms of other items there is the cabinet there's the cabinet forward plan which is for someone um any comments on that and then we've got our own there's kind of yeah to tell you come out including the task and finish group and then uh we've got our forward plan uh for the next few meetings um so uh i was thinking a suggestion that have a themed meeting for the next item the next meeting because we've got the public health it's on the general public health plan and thought might be interesting to look at more in focus that um i mean obviously we cover other items that are that are important but we take a particular look on topic um i believe other committees particularly on public health and qualities which is um so well and uh um the next meeting that you know but uh but i don't know if people get some good idea but i think you know more topics more topics in depth uh wouldn't be a bad thing for us and we learn more about particular issues can i just clarify i'm not anti-presentation i just think sometimes we often run out of time to ask questions and i just i think it's more important for us to ask questions i also think a brief report is helpful but sometimes they are just reading out things that we've we've already read um and just because we all in this committee ask a lot of questions that's all so it's important but i learned that about the quality accounts all the time ago but you know we don't need to rehab have massive presentations where we've already got force you know but in terms of effectiveness
Transcript
What does that say? Is it two minutes past? Oh, okay. Welcome to the committee members. Thanks for attending tonight. I hope you had a good summer, which seems to be nearly over now. No, there's so many to me. Meetings may be recorded and broadcast by people present as allowed for in law by the council by attending either personal or online. You may be picked up on recordings. A council call is covered, you know, I'll turn it off when you finish speaking. So we have so minutes of the group. Then the absence is tonight. Chakra Bharti, Chakra Bharti. My microphone. Apologies from Councillor Chakra Bharti for late this duty. Emma. Volunteer at Barnet Barredman, volunteer and working as a support worker at Barnet Mencap, working with Health Watch, volunteer at Age UK, Barnet as well. And I mention anything else as I remember it. Sorry. Waters is online remotely. Are you there, Emma? Yes. Hello. Hello, Councillor Cohen. Do you want me to just share my screen to begin the presentation? Sorry. Can you hear me? Yeah. Can you speak speak up a little bit? Hi, can you hear me now? Just keep talking. Sorry. Can you hear me now? No, I think now we need to just work on on the volume a bit. Can you hear us OK? Yes. Yes. And just to say, I don't know if you can hear me well, I can hear Emma well from the video connection, so I don't know if that helps identify anything. Emma, it's not particularly good. I don't know whether you can speak up or turn your volume up in any way. You talk to us and we can tell. Can you hear me at all? Can you hear me a little bit? Yeah, we can hear you a little bit. Oh, right. Sorry, I didn't realise I thought you couldn't hear me at all. Can you? I mean, I'm speaking quite loudly now. I don't know if it's online. I don't know. Is that OK? Can you hear me now? Yeah, I think we'll have to go with that. We'll all be incredibly quiet as well. I'm sorry. So I assume you've got to give a brief presentation. Yeah, let me just show. Yeah, let me just show my share my screen. OK. I'm sorry, I don't see that. I don't know why my presentation's gone. I'm sorry. OK, so hello, everyone. My name is Emma Waters. I'm a public health consultant in Barnet, and I cover children and young people. I've been asked to come here today to present an update on our oral health action plan and working group and general oral health in Barnet. If you really can't hear me, please raise your hands and I'll stop. So thank you for having me. So oral health, as I said in the report and I'm sure you're aware, is a key marker of general health in children. And tooth decay and poor oral health is preventable, so an important modified... I'm sorry, Emma. You can't hear me. I've just got to check where the members can come in. It must be very difficult. Can you hear me online? Is it my computer? Yeah, I can hear you very clearly, Emma. OK. Yeah, you're very faint. Yeah, perhaps we'll just try and see if we can do that. Just hold on a minute. OK, thank you. Yeah, if you could just speak and we'll just see if we can do it through a laptop. Oh, I'm really sorry. Thank you very much. Hello, I'll start again just to introduce myself quickly. My name is Emma Waters. I'm a public health consultant in Barnet speaking about oral health in children today. So, as I said in the report, oral health is a key marker of general health in children and tooth decay is preventable, so an important public health issue. Poor oral health can impact on children's ability to sleep, eat and play and cause discomfort. Poor oral health represents a significant financial cost to the NHS and it's not evenly distributed within populations with significant health inequality. The causes of the tooth decay are socially determined as social factors can influence dietary behaviours, tooth brushing behaviours and potentially the ability to access dental services. Therefore, a whole systems approach is required to improve oral health with system wide partnership working. Sorry, my thing is now not working. So, I presented some of this data today. The National Detidental Epidemiology programme does regular surveys of different populations, but every other year always surveys five-year-olds because that's a really key time to look at oral health in children. So, the last survey in 2022 had very wide confidence intervals because there was not a good sample achieved. So, it's difficult to compare the samples between areas, the barnet and other areas and with the previous survey results. However, what we can say is that a significant number of children in barnet have dental cavities and also that our rate was higher than the England average, which is the case for most of London concern. Really, as we know, it has such a significant impact on child health. And it's just to say here that poor oral health obviously has a similar etiology to healthy weight and in barnet healthy weight in children is also a significant problem, but actually we're doing relatively well with healthy weight compared to London and England, as you would probably expect because barnet, although it obviously has significant deprivation, is relatively affluent. So, this shows that oral health is an area of concern compared to other comparable health indicators. So, it is an area of significant concern in barnet. And also to say we are working to improve the uptake of the survey and this year there was a much better uptake achieved. So, hopefully we'll get much better data from this year that's just gone survey. So, in 2022, as you know, there was an oral health health needs assessment undertaken, which was shared with you and presented at the time to you as well. As a result of that, a multi-agency oral health action plan was developed and an oral health partnership group was formed. And since the development of the oral health action plan is being regularly, the oral health partnership group has met regularly to monitor the progress of the action plan. Focus areas for the oral health partnership group include supervised toothbrushing schemes. Supervised toothbrushing schemes have a good evidence base behind them and have been associated with significant reductions in the proportion of children having the K experienced by the age of five. And the ICB is now funding a supervised toothbrushing scheme across NCL. They will offer supervised toothbrushing in the five most deprived awards in Barnet to early years. Barnet Public Health alongside Belles and Family Services are now supporting the ICB to implement the NCL toothbrushing scheme with input from the oral health partnership group. The next area is the oral health promotion team in Barnet, which is funded from public health and delivered by Whitterton Health. However, we have very small amounts of funding for this and the oral health promotion team is effectively one oral health promoter who is then managed by the healthy rate manager with input also from the wider Whitterton Health Pro Healthy Child programme. The oral health promotion team is as recommended by the health and need assessment focusing on health education of the workforce and has developed a staff education plan. There is a need for further development of the staff education plan, specific training for looked after children's teams and carers, and also identification of oral health champions within the healthy child programme and the early years workforce, which is behind schedule. We're also focused on your oral health communications and materials. We've developed health promotion leaflets and education materials and we're looking into developing a more in-depth communication plan as well as working alongside colleagues such as Barnet health ambassadors to promote oral health in communities more effectively. Oral health paths consisting of age-appropriate toothpaste, toothbrush, and health information leaflets are now routinely delivered by the healthy child programme at one year and two five-year reviews. We've also previously delivered packs of oral health packs in the Bayes holiday scheme and to migrant health teams along, but we haven't had funding to do that this year, that was last year, but the oral health packs in the one and 2.5 year reviews are continuing. Next steps, we're looking to support regular health packs to migrants and we're looking into the feasibility of delivering oral health packs in the Bayes holiday schemes again because that was a very well-evaluated and really very well received innovation. Fluoride varnishing, which is something recommended by the health needs assessment to consider whether we could provide it with additional funding, we did look into it and obviously if we had the funding we'd very much like to provide fluoride varnishing, however there was insufficient funding when we looked into the costs. So instead the focus is on supervised toothbrushing and further promotion of the free fluoride varnishing that families can receive through NHS dentists. Dental access and registration, we've continued to promote, we continue to try and promote the parents' ability to access NHS in dentists through the find the dentist tool because there are NHS dentists in varnish accepting children and young people and we've got communications planned for mid-September to promote this tool again and also to vote both among parents and professionals looking after children so they can promote it to parents too. Then the final thing is this whole systems approach to oral health and in Barnet we recognise the multi-factorial causes of poor oral health and it's oral health is considered within other public health programmes and the oral health partnership group members, which includes clinicians, family services, looked after children's nurses, work to promote oral health across the system. We've developed a Making Every Contact Count module around oral health for children. Finally we work to support the National Dental Epidemiology programme as we said to improve the uptake of the survey for next year. So that's just a summary of the report, I hope you could hear some of it. I'll stop sharing my screen and ask about any questions. Thank you Emma, can you hear me? I can hear you very clearly yeah. Yeah we can see you. Just on one point could you just say what fluoride varnishing is? Yes so I'm not dentally trained, I'm a medic, but I have a very a lay person's understanding of fluoride varnishing. So literally a varnish of fluoride is applied to children's teeth, it takes very little time, it can be applied from the ages, well I don't know if it can be applied young, but it would be routinely be recommended to be applied from the age of three upwards every six months. It's literally just putting it on the teeth and then allowing it to settle and then reapplying every six months. Thank you, thank you for the report, I think it's a very impressive report, setting up the partnership group and setting and training for the wider workforce. And the toothbrushing pilots. I just wanted a couple of questions. Obviously the treatment you know went right down during the pandemic, I mean kind of shocking you know really low levels and then it started to pick up. Is that going to get back to pre-pandemic? When we're going to get back to some pre-pandemic levels of treatment? You mean of, sorry I didn't mean to interrupt. Yeah the same question just about access, about access of to dentists, you know the problem of finding a dentist and if you were getting more people registered would there be the dentist to actually cope with that? There are two questions for me and then I'll open it up to them. Yeah and they're both valid questions obviously, thank you for them. So you're right there has been an increase in but it's not gone up to the pre-pandemic levels but even the pre-pandemic levels were only just over 50% of children having, I can't remember exactly how it's defined, but relatively regular dental checks. So obviously we've gone up to I think about 45% when I looked at the figures. So that's an estimate because I had to work the figures out myself, I don't know exactly correct but I looked at the number of dental appointments in the population. So it's not quite at the pre-pandemic levels and the pre-pandemic levels weren't great. Our aim is to increase that, it's something we can measure, so it's something we can look at success in and that's why we're promoting access to dentists. There is access to dentists in Barnet, there are dentists accepting children but I completely take the point that if old children access dentists in children in Barnet we don't know that there would be dental access and also there's a point that today there are dentists accepting children in Barnet, depending on family's resources they may or may not ever be able to travel to the dentist accepting the children, so that's another issue. But we work with the ICB and we keep them informed on our work, so if we see more children being accepted by dentists we hope that they'll be able to create more, they'll be able to meet that demand. But yes it is an issue that at the moment we can promote it in the knowledge that there will be dentists accepting children but there might come a point where we have to consider whether we want to promote what to do if people can't access dentists then promoting the dental services might not be, might have to re-evaluate that and work with the ICB, who are the people who commission the dental services. Thank you. Are there any questions? Councillor Wakeley and Emma, number J. Thank you, I have a couple if that's okay. Thank you. The first question I just wanted to ask was about dental care and neglect and safeguarding issues. In the report it says that dental care professionals should receive regular safeguarding training. I'm quite worried about the shoulds there, so could you answer what should mean and why it's in the report and not do receive safeguarding training? Okay no I think that's my mistake. And also just out of the programmes we've run, you might not have the figures but have many safeguarding incidents come up or any reports being made, do you know of the programmes that the council's been helping with? Thank you. Yeah so I don't think, should is the wrong word, that's just me not writing in clear English. We've repeatedly, this is the local dental committee members who are on the health promotion group and they are very confident that they are, that the dental professionals are getting regular safeguarding training because it's part of their registration, they need it. So although I can't tell you, I don't have the figures, I've checked with them repeatedly and they've been very able to reassure me that that is the case. Within the regular appointments, dentist appointments, they tell me it's actually very rare for them to see cases of neglect because the problem is that with dentists, because you don't have to be registered as a dentist, you don't have to take your child for regular dental check-ups, they only see the children whose parents are bringing them in, so they think, so they don't regularly see. You are absolutely correct that within our supervised toothbrushing schemes and within the oral epidemiology, the dental epidemiology surveys, they are a wider breadth of children seen, although parents can still choose to withdraw their consent. I don't know how many safeguarding issues are picked up in those programmes and I can look into it and get back to you because I think that's a really interesting point. Again, there's still an issue that parents need to consent to them but they're not, it's slightly different, so I think it's a really interesting question and I look into it. Thank you. Yeah, I was more wondering when they're going to schools because I imagine if they're taking them to a dentist, they're probably not neglecting their children because that wouldn't really make sense, but it's more when they're going into school, if schools are concerned more generally about dental or hygiene or dental neglect, is that something they can report in for safeguarding and is it something schools are aware of as well actually? I think it does come up in the training, I'm assuming it would be reported through the MASH like any other but I can look into the route because I'm not, I would assume it would have to go through the MASH but let me look into it. Sorry, that's helpful, thank you. And then my second question, sorry, I wanted to ask about looked after children. I was a bit concerned actually about the, I'm disappointed about the 69% of our looked after children that have dental checks. I think reading the report, we're trying to encourage parents to ensure their children have good dental care and that they're getting dental checks. I think obviously we're corporate parents, we're looking after the looked after children for only 69% of them to have regular dental checks. I think it's actually really, I can't think of a word that isn't too strong, but it's really disappointing. We can't, we're not leading by a good example and I think it should be the priority over all the other programs because if our looked after children aren't even accessing that care, I think that's really bad. It's not really a question. Yeah, I need, no, no, it's completely, yeah, agreed. I need to talk to, look, we need to get new data on that and talk to looked after children and nurses because we've been working with them since the health needs assessment around dental access and they do do regular health reviews for all looked after children, even the ones who are not within Barnet. They will, I mean, I spoke to them recently, they talked to Manchester to do a face-to-face review, so they are doing them, that they are trying to make sure that parents, that there's dental registration and GP registration. So I will ask them for more up-to-date figures. I'm not saying they have improved, but it's a good, good point. We need to see where we, because we've been working with them back and we haven't checked where they are with it. Chair, could we ask that it's reported back to us about the looked after children? Because I know a few other members are also concerned about that figure and if we could have an update, that would be brilliant, thank you. Apart from the actions, oh sorry, Emma was there, yeah. Brilliant question, Councillor Wakeley. I also wondered, Emma, is it worth just flagging this with somebody like Tina McElligott who's responsible for, you know, our looked after children service in the round. That's, yeah. I think the reference to corporate yeah, no, I will raise it with her too, because it's not all on the dental, the looked after children's nurses, they coordinate it, but they need the carers and the, to be supporting and working with them on this. I think it's, we should be just exploring every avenue. No, no, you're completely right, yeah. Hi, following on from Councillor Wakeley's questions, I mean this is a children and young people's all health action fan, but I think I'm wondering whether it needs to be sort of integrated into an adult one as well, because it feels like there's a wider issue around the culture around brushing teeth, then we're talking about looked after children, but then I think Councillor Wakeley's points about how identifying if people and children have safeguarding needs through teeth brushing, and I think Councillor Stock brought up an idea of having, in some boroughs there are, I think it was mobile dentist bands, and I feel like maybe that would help potentially, and then also the other question I had is that if there are dentists that are further away, is it within the budget for people to be provided funding to get to those dentists, and would that information be made available to people to let them know? Emma, yeah Emma, did you get the two questions? Okay, so around the access to dentists and some kind of mobile van, I don't know of any boroughs that actually have a mobile van, but I did hear Councillor Stock, in that respect, boroughs have mobile vans that go around and do the fluoride varnishing, and while they're doing the fluoride varnishing, they are looking in the mouth and then might report concerns, but I don't know of any actual dental checks which is slightly more in depth than the fluoride varnishing, but maybe there are some boroughs doing it. As we discussed, we don't commission the dental services, they're commissioned by the ICB, and so I think we could raise it with them that maybe it's something that could be looked into. The ICB are working on preventative measures, while they fund the supervised tooth washing programme, they've taken that money out of the NHS dental money to try and work on prevention as well, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be putting forward other ideas too, but I can't comment on the feasibility of that scheme and the costs of it, because I don't work in NHS dental commissioning, but I do know that they are considering prevention within the ICB and they obviously also work with dental public health consultants, but at the moment the proportion of money spent on dental prevention and all the health promotion compared to the costs of dental costs is a fraction of it, so if we could do something to increase that amount and have more health promotion that would obviously be preferable. And your second question, I'm really sorry I can't remember that specifically what your second question was, I'm sorry, oh the adults, yes sorry, integrating, I don't know if you have an adult or healthcare plan, but I was thinking about the culture and how encouraging adults to, you know, it's essentially adults that need to take children to get them, no you're right, and so I was just wondering about integrating that into it, but also about, you were saying about lots of dentists are available but they're outside of people's areas and so money to travel to those places, is that something that, and I know I'm asking a funding question and I'm aware of that. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no it's a reasonable question, I mean I'm not saying they are necessarily out of people's areas, I'm saying that you might not have access to them, not all dentists are accepting NHS children onto their lists, which would make me assume that people might, their nearest dentist might not be accessible to them and they might have to travel further, obviously in London it's less of an issue because distances are probably smaller than in a rural area, but even so there might be, that could affect access, I don't have any information on exactly how that affects access, but we know when I've typed in postcodes to see, they have been dentists accepting relatively near, but a father, certainly we don't have any funding for that, I don't think the ICB do, but I can look into it, it's not as far as I'm aware there would be any funding, but I can look into it, if there is funding obviously it should be promoted. For children's dentists there's no right to choose then? Well there's a right to choose what's available, I don't think it doesn't work in the same way as the right to choose an appointment when you go, but they're the right to choose the available of dentists, but if they haven't got capacity and they're not accepting, choosing to accept children on their list, then you can't, yeah, you can just choose from the dentist and accepting children. With regards to the, oh sorry do you want me to carry on, I was going to carry on the second, there was another part of the question about adults, do you want me to, have you finished that? There was just, Emma's final point was about integrating with adults, which I think is a really good point, we don't have any funding attached to adult or health, so that currently there isn't an adult or health action plan, but I completely, I think it's a really important point and thank you for raising it, we should at least be looking at educating families when we send out our comms, so that's an opportunity to support parents as well, and hopefully improve their children's oral health as well, so I think it's a really good point and thank you. I was going to ask about the fluoride varnishing, and you mentioned that we're not doing it at the moment because of the cost, what sort of cost is involved in that? I actually, I did look this up and I don't have the figures to hand, I can send them to you though, it's, I mean it's not, per child it's relatively cheap, but when you look at it on a council level, I think it was, it was, if you were going to do even just targeted more deprived areas, it would be more than our current oral health promotion budget, which is around £60,000 and that plays for our health promotion promoter and a bit of other work, so we just, we don't have any more money for it, so we had hoped that we might be able to target the more deprived areas, but we actually don't have the money at all, so it's not something that we can do at the moment, but I can get you the exact figures, I'm sorry I mentioned that before the meeting, because we did a piece of work around it last year, we thought there was a possibility there might be a bit of money, this year we don't, that isn't even a consideration, but I can, I can send the figures through, I'm sorry I should have them to hand. And just to follow up, how successful is that? Because I gather from people I know whose children have had the floor of varnishing, that they think it's been very successful. It is, yeah I mean it does, I don't know the exact, it is considered to be, the information I have is on cost effectiveness, and it's considered to be very cost effective in terms of if you have put floor varnish on children's teeth, they're much, much more likely, much less likely to need to have any kind of dental procedures which obviously cost more money, of course that's saving to the NHS, and the floor varnishing if we're delivering it is a cost to us, so it's a bit about the lack of join up in the system, but so it is an effective intervention, as is high quality supervised tooth brushing, which is actually considered to be more cost effective, and is the intervention that will be, has been selected, and has the advantage of also promoting good oral health throughout life as well. It's about getting the fluoride onto the children's teeth, and both do that. Supervised tooth brushing also improves oral hygiene and affects that habit throughout life, and is an opportunity to give other oral health promotion and healthy weight messaging because they go hand in hand. It does seem, I was going to ask the same question as Cornelius, I think the report says how effective floor varnishing is, so it seems a shame. It is a shame. Yeah, I'm not, we'd want to do it, we'd want to do both. I mean it is possible for children to access it, but only children whose parents are not able to access the dentist and take them to it, so yeah, it's not that we don't want to deliver full eye varnishing, it's that we do not have the funding, and every other NCL borough delivers it to some extent, some have targeted programmes, some have universal programmes, but every other, and we are the only one not delivering it. Thank you. Carrying on from that, I thought I'd read something about the fluoride varnishing being free in NHS dentists. It is. And then that made me wonder how many of people, maybe specifically children, are registered at NHS dentists in Bournick as opposed to to private ones. So we think about an estimated 45% of children in Bournick have had a recent NHS dentist appointment, and so it would be, obviously some of those would be under three who won't receive the varnish, some of those may have, parents may have declined to have it, or the child may have declined, not all just, sometimes very young children just don't cooperate, understandably, but we'd be hope that the majority of those children received the fluoride varnishing, but I can't obviously be certain of the numbers. Does that mean we don't know how many children are getting private dental appointments? No, I don't have that data. I don't know, there will be some children having private dental appointments. That number could be could be quite a lot higher than theirs. There will be some children receiving private dental treatment. It's true. So, but yeah, I don't know the number, but we can assume that a large number of children are not receiving dental treatment. Thank you. I just want to follow on from that. When we were doing the GP access report, we noted that there was a decline in GPs in Bournick. I know we're talking about the decline in children actually seeing dentists. I wondered if there was a decline in the number of dentists, as well as the decline in the number of dentists actually offering NHS appointments. Do we have that figure? I can obtain it. I think last minute there were some, there was some kind of client, but I need to check that it's old data, so I can ask the Dental Committee for that information because they have registered dentists. I'm sorry, I don't have it to hand. Just a follow up question. You talk about paying attention to the five most deprived wards. I just wonder if you can say what you're doing in those five most deprived wards. So, at the moment, it's promoting a supervised tooth brushing programme in early years in those wards, but the hope is that our comms programme will also focus on those wards, working with health ambassadors and potentially community groups to promote oral health messaging as well. Because obviously we want to make it across the life course, at least for children, and as was stated earlier, it's a good idea to focus on adults as well, but also we want to capture those children who are not in early years settings. And in fact, when I say early year settings, it's only nursery and preschools. We're not working with child minders in this programme, so there are obviously children and child minders and children not in an early year setting, so yeah. It's a very difficult issue this, but thank you very much for what you've done, but we obviously need to come back to some of this because it has shown a very concerning report. Thank you for doing that. Yeah. Any more questions from members? And Sarah has a hand up. Sarah has a hand up. Sorry. I don't think you can see, but Sarah has a hand up. Sorry. Would that be okay for me to come in? Yes. Can you hear me okay? Yes, we can hear you. Okay. I hope I'm not shouting. I'm trying to speak loudly. Yeah, no, thank you so much, Emma. It's a really important discussion. Just to feedback in terms of the postcode checker on the internet, we do get feedback from people on our inquiry line that they have found quite often that that's not always accurate, so it will say on there that a dentist is taking new NHS referrals, but then when you phone up, they're not actually taking them, so we've had that experience a few times in terms of the travel side of it. I mean, just to say as well, I mean, I suppose there's the national issue and then the local issue, and it's quite difficult for us to impact on that national issue, but I'll put the link in the chat. I would really encourage people, maybe constituents if they want to share their experiences with Health Watch Barnet. We do share that with Health Watch England regularly, and it helps to build up a national picture. They use that a lot in their campaigns. But yeah, I mean, I just really agree in terms of the comm side of it. Obviously, Barnet Council is very much doing what it can, and I think maybe at the health and wellbeing board, we could have a discussion. I know there's lots of other pressures on the integrated care board, but anything further that can be done in terms of communications and with adults as well. I think given that it's quite limited at a local level, what we can do about the budget issue, that I think would be a great thing to focus on. Yeah. Thank you for that, Sarah. And thank you, Emma, for this report. I know there's a lot of work going into it, and perhaps you can come back with some of the information that you've been asked for when you can. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Next, we're going to take the next item as a cancer center update because we have a speaker. Just before we move on to the next item, I know we requested the end of the last meeting. Can we really try and push not to have hybrid speakers? Because we can't do proper scrutiny when we can't hear them properly online. We can't ask proper questions. It makes it really frustrating. And also, I'd also say we get presentations that are the same as what's in the report. We've all read the report. We've all read our papers. I think it would be more productive as a committee to have more time asking questions and to really have them here in person. I know there's some occasions where they can't. Committee after committee, we're having people online. You can't do proper scrutiny like that. Sorry, that's a bit of a no disrespect to the people that joined online, but it does make it really difficult. Thank you. I don't know the circumstances why the speaker couldn't hear, but sometimes it is. That's the only way we can do it. Sure. So, if I may add, I take responsibility. I said to Emma she could join remotely because I'm very conscious that my staff work all day and have families and so on. So, noted for the future. Thank you. Yeah, we're going to take the item number 10 on the Matt Vernon update and you've probably seen from, sorry, just to welcome Speaker Jessamie Kinghall. Now, the partnerships and engagement, it says here, NHS East England. You've probably seen that this is about a strategic review of the work of this centre kind of non-specialist surgical care and proposal to relocate to from to Watford General and obviously there are a certain number of patients who attend this service from NCL you've seen and a certain number 106 from Barnard. So, obviously we have an interest. They've set up a joint health scrutiny committee to look at this and I think there's an issue you know how much we are and how we sit on the committee how much we obviously want to be kept informed. So, perhaps the speaker could just briefly the importance of this and what's the best option for us to be involved. Thank you very much and thank you for having me. I work for NHS England in the east of England for the specialised commissioning team. As in east of England we've actually delegated our specialised commissioning services to the ICBs. So, I'm working on behalf of the ICBs in east of England as well and because this service crosses two three regions I'm also working on behalf of the NHS in London and the southeast. So, it's a little bit complicated but the main thing is actually why we need to make some changes and I'm hoping that that's come across in the paper. I wasn't planning on going through the paper reference to your comment earlier. If I had been I'm not now. But I think what I would say is we have got to the stage now where we have to act. This has been reviewed numerous times over the previous years. There's always been a reason why a solution hasn't been found. We need to resolve this. We've gone since this the clinicians raised concerns we have the independent review. We have gone through every permutation we can think of to try and work out what is the right solution for this big population across such a large geography. And I think I'm now really keen that all those who are we've obviously worked quite closely with those with the larger population footprints. We've undertaken engagement we had back in 2021. We had some north central London patient focus groups to try and see what the impact was on north central London and actually they generally speaking were quite positive about the proposals. It was harder to engage when I say hard I don't mean it was more difficult for me to engage with the population. A lot of them didn't associate Mount Vernon as their service so we're more reluctant to get involved and to commit the time. But we did have some people who did get very involved. And I've got all the data in the paper there so you can see the number of patients that's impacted and what the kind of activity levels are. I will just say I just I did a bit of a comparison after submitting this paper on what it was like pre-covid 19 which I thought you might be interested in. And there has been a slight reduction in the number of patients since then so there were 137 from Barnet in 1920. The majority of reasons are the same outpatient appointments radiotherapy and chemotherapy are the primary reasons people are traveling to Mount Vernon. And I think what we have seen since pre-covid times is a big shift in the proportion of outpatient appointments that are conducted by telephone. So prior to covid it would have been about four percent. It's now around 20 percent. It would have gone up higher during covid because obviously people weren't able to travel to the site and it's settled down a little bit now. So we know that times are changing as well and our planning is taking account of that. Obviously particularly with cancer services you need to there'll be a certain number of appointments that do need to be face to face and and some patients would prefer that. That's all been factored into the modeling. So when we are talking about the new cancer service we're also looking at how we can make it easier for patients to receive treatment closer to where they live. So that would mean is the local hospital doing all the chemotherapy it could be doing? You know are patients going to Mount Vernon that could be having that chemotherapy? So only the ones with the most complex needs need to travel or the most specialist care or the clinical trials that have to be carried out on the site. And also thinking about the things like virtual appointments and whether we're making the right use of those so that patients have that option. This development of a chemotherapy at home service which has proved really popular on the drugs it's being used for and patients have been able to go on holiday and receive their chemotherapies and address on holiday and carry on their treatment. So from a quality of life point of view that's been really really successful. So what we need to do now is really go to public consultation on our case for change and is this the right direction for this cancer center and as I say we have really struggled to find alternatives in fact we haven't been able to find any alternatives. So we are going to consult on a single option for the main relocation but with some slight movements and a potential network radiotherapy unit in the north. So my reason for coming here really is first of all to let you know and make sure you've had the opportunity to review this before we get to the consultation stage but also to ask you to have a think about how you'd like to be involved through that stage and Hertfordshire is doing all the legwork at the moment in terms of their local authority in establishing a joint committee. There'll still need to be a formal process to determine who's represented, how many, how is it proportionate, how is that managed, who chairs it, that kind of thing and there'll be another meeting with officers I think in the later in this month and there's just been a bit of change of personnel at Hertfordshire and Hertfordshire have about five and a half thousand patients just by way of comparison. So I think it's probably easier if I just take questions to be honest and if that's okay. Thank you for that, yeah there is the three options in terms of our involvement in this in the future but before I ask other questions generally to the speaker Emma. Hi I'm gonna contradict Councillor Wakeley, apologies, as a resident and somebody that isn't probably as clever or understanding as a lot of people here I have no idea what this item really is about as somebody with disabilities doesn't read very well I and as somebody that would be logging on and watching this video I thought this is, I do understand what you're saying like oh we've read the items but let's be honest the general public probably hasn't and I would really appreciate like a one minute explanation and I'm sorry if that annoys people, so yeah apologies. One minute is going to be a big challenge but no I understand completely and so the issues we're trying to address is some clinicians at the cancer centre which is in Northwood came to us with some concerns about the sustainability of the service now the main problem there are crumbling buildings and all sorts of things like that that isn't the main problem the main problem is that there are no longer support services on the site like critical care so the cancer centre is a standalone cancer centre it's on a site owned by Hillingdon hospitals but it's not the main hospital so it no longer has overnight facilities it no longer has any sort of theatres, anaesthetics, they have to bring that all in from other hospitals if a patient becomes unwell while they're on the site they have to be transferred out so if you're having chemotherapy treatment for example on site and you become unwell and you are particularly if it's a heart condition or something like that you will be sent in an ambulance to Watford general hospital or Hillingdon hospital and that means that there are a number of things like trials that the teams can't apply to do it means there are some treatments they can't do because they require the backup of having things like critical care on the site so hematology is a really good example because that used to be provided at Mount Vernon because of the advances in hematology cancer treatment and the national service specifications now require critical care to be provided so all of the hematology so all of the blood cancer work has had to move from Mount Vernon into your age now that means for patients and yes from here but also from places like Stevenage and Luton and central Bedfordshire they are traveling into London for that treatment that they should be able to get more locally not necessarily at their local hospital but at a cancer center for their population the Mount Vernon population is about two and a half million if you take out that cancer center because it can't provide the modern cancer care those patients have to travel into either into London or into Cambridge or to Oxford and and so it's just got to the stage now where the we're at the tipping point with what services can be provided and and we need to make these changes now so moving it to a hospital site in still in its own building still not run by Watford hospital and we're hoping it will be run by uclh that have that specialist cancer expertise and there'll be a link bridge to Watford hospital so that clinicians and patients can be taken across Luton patients when they need to so as a patient you're having your cancer treatment there's a cardiologist on hand there's critical care beds on hand there's if you have diabetes they consult with diabetes experts and everyone which they just can't do at the moment and the future of cancer care suggests that we definitely need that yeah that's helpful more than more than a minute though it's valuable no no not at all um just cancel bonds i am i i assume that provision of this new facility is going to be quite expensive do you do you have the money um short answer is no um i think i think it's safe to say that this time all projects are being reviewed um what we do have is permission to move to the next stage of public consultation we need to go through our own assurance process um which is what we're about to kick off which hence wanting to sort of give you early early notice rather than coming to you at the point of consultation and we we are in the unusual position and that we have that support to go ahead to the next phase despite not having identified the capital um we know that there is a review going on of the new whole program and all the big capital schemes we've been told that we can carry on um which we're taking as good news and i think every time we've had conversations with national colleagues and others it's become really clear there isn't really an alternative and so we need something we're going to need to spend some money and and if we don't we could actually end up spending a lot more for us for starters and so i think there's acceptance that this is a priority that's not the same as having the money it's still um another hurdle we'll have to cross and it could still pose a problem what it will do is give the consultants and the clinical staff some certainty that that there is agreement about the future direction that there is a plan and an intention and to move it to an acute site and we're hoping that that will give us some um recruitment and power and and other things as well and just make sure people are particularly on the site but also patients and others are confident that there is a future for the service there's a mini smith thank you very much chair uh one thing that struck me about your report was how few patients from barnet and north london in general are going to mount vernon where do our patients go because we i'm quite sure we have a high level of cancer patients in barnet yes i don't have the statistics on where they go but i know that some of the patients go into uclh um from from this area from the north central london perhaps that's the main um center um i think i mean i can certainly get back to you with that i think because it crosses regions in terms of the data and who enter data we haven't always been able to pull that together um unless we're asked for it and we can we can go make those requests and i have to say i was quite surprised as well because there are patient there are more patients from further away in other directions but i think it's to do with the location of other provisions so london is quite well served for cancer centers um so um and it's also to do with the referral hospital and the direction that they send patients in and uh northwick park and and other hospitals have got um quite good links and then sort of middle sex hospitals have got quite good links in with some of the london hospitals so you will there'll be a couple of factors that will determine where you are referred and one of them will be your tumor site um so what type of cancer it is and where is that specialist place for that cancer and if there is a specialist place that's relatively close you you may well go and have all your treatment there mount vernon's a non-surgical center so you only go there for the um non-surgical treatments um and i think the other thing is really a consultant where the consultant pathways and some of them have joint appointments with other hospitals so for example hospitals in london but i can get you that data i'm sure and the implications for the you know there's a small number of violent patients i think you say that the travel is you know it's okay because they train lines etc to what other implications for traveling and getting to treatment and are you also interested in the chemotherapy at home that then i'm a patient as much as anyone else in terms of not having to travel yes so the chemotherapy at home um is run by the mount vernon team so they will assess all of their patients regardless of where they're from for their suitability and if they think a patient is suitable they will invite that patient participate on the trial some patients don't want to they're a bit off-putting or they might have a needle phobia or something they don't want to do that themselves they receive then all the training and that's some of that is at mount vernon and so they won't be the chemotherapy at home trials it's all sort of backpack kind of and chemotherapy and sometimes it's the patient who's trained or sometimes it's their carer but they're not put on that course of chemotherapy until they're the clinicians are satisfied that that's a safe option for them and there are some patients who don't go ahead with it who are through the training or start the training and some patients have longer training than others um but it's the the feedback from it has been really really successful in terms of the travel times the modeling suggests that the average and average from everyone that lives in north central london and the current site is about 38 minutes that's probably a bit optimistic and modeling always is isn't it and the new site would be 30 minutes and that's by car and that doesn't that's an average and it's an average it was taken at nine o'clock on a tuesday morning before covid and that was when the modeling was done and train line wise is the patients that have told us it's it's good um we've had a number of patients i've spoken to are quite familiar with whatford as a site and they they were quite positive about the public support links um a number of them would like the metropolitan line to be extended but i think that's beyond our gift halo i just wanted to ask if if training goes ahead would any of the other facilities that are there now providing service with that place so there are quite a few different services provided by different organizations on that site um so everything that's associated with the cancer center including the paul strickland scanner would move um there is a private hospital that does theater which is actually where mount burnham do their brachia therapy at the moment that would stay where it is although the plan is to have a brachytherapy theater so that patients wouldn't need to be sent back to that hospital um there is a day hospital on the site which has outpatient appointments that's run by hillingdon that will stay um they are actually using the site to decant they're building a new hospital that the hospital they are decanting services from the hillingdon site onto the mount vernon site to free up space and enable the works so actually there will be more in the short term more health services on the northwood site and and they have a long-term plan for it so would the patient get a choice so there wouldn't be cancer services on the northwood site so if you are a cancer patient that has been referred by your local hospital to the mount vernon cancer service whatever it's known as and you would be going to the site unless there was an outreach clinic or an outreach service at your local hospital and also then all the other facilities need to be there because if somebody is receiving treatment obviously they can't come on public transport they may not be able to go back on the public transport so then you say car park and stuff like that is that yes so car parking is very much on our radar and it's a conversation we're having with west arts hospitals around um how we can make sure that our our patients um have the spaces that they need um west arts do have a relatively new multi-story car park which has hugely improved parking on that site um that's not to say that with the addition of a cancer center it could beat everybody it could serve everybody and they have a site plan for their site there are spaces on the site that there is potential to do something else obviously council needs to be involved and so on as well because there are targets around car parking and we feel very strongly that if you're having cancer treatment you you'll be able to get to sites and and most people do travel by car and for some for quite a lot of patients they are encouraged to come by car not by transport they uh immuno compromised condition that they're in i suppose if you ask the average resident who happens to be a cancer patient if they'd like to travel to a facility a new facility that is closer to where they live with better transport links i suppose um the average response to the consultation would be quite positive however i think one thing that wasn't quite clear from this contribution was whether there would be any impact on overall cancer cancer care capacity across the multiple integrated care boards that are that are impacted by the closure of this one facility that previously catered to 13 000 patients so i guess the simple question is are the shorter travel times offset by longer waiting lists i think i can help you with that one so and there are when we went around looking at all of the options closing the hospital was you're right there is not the capacity for all those patients in existing cancer centers we're not proposing to do that the closing the site we're basically lifting it up and putting it into a new building so the activity is exactly the same it will do exactly the same for exactly the same patients it does now minus or plus some changes some tweaks around the edges so for example some of the patients in brenton ealing which is quite far south of the patch there is actually a cancer center closer to them than the current mount burner site um and the suggestion is that those patients may prefer to use a local cancer center that's all been modeled and the capacity is there we've also modeled in growth um we we did some modeling on growth back in 2019 20 and we did growth for five years and 10 years and 30 and we've updated it and one of the things that we can see is that the prediction was pretty much spot on for where we are now so those first five years so that's given a level of confidence that we've built in enough capacity so the new cancer center will still treat that population of 13 000 patients um across all of those areas um and we are looking at putting some additional services in where we need to so it will also mean that um will uh the hematology being an example if the patients from harper and bedfordshire who are currently going into uclh for hematology go to the new cancer center and we put in additional beds an additional space for those patients that helps uclh a little bit with some of their space for their growth that they're expecting in in that area of london so we've worked really closely across the regions and the icbs to make sure that what we're doing is we're helping each other out and we're not changing um we're not putting pressure on any system does that make sense uh i think we'll draw this to a close a bit um we've got this we've been asked to comment on our involvement to the pre-option committee one is to be involved in full joint committee uh taking necessary steps which probably i would suggest is not uh necessary that's option b to attend joint committee meetings and interested party participating discussions affecting the barnum population but not undertaking a formal scrutiny role and c is not for test not take part in the joint committee but just receive formal as part of the public consultation so i don't know what members i mean i would suggest we don't need to be on the full committee given the whole number of patients but we might want to be kept in full should be any any views on b or c but whether we sit on this shooting committee or we just get information um any views yes center sergeant yes thank you very much i just want to know what sort of officer time would be involved in the the opposite time in a us taking part in scrutiny committee for instance so i can answer as best i can i'm i'm speaking on behalf of healthful health organization to speak on behalf of a local authority um but um harper are expecting or have provisionally um offered to undertake the support for the joint scrutiny committee so i think there is an assumption that as the largest patient population for the cancer center they would chair the committee and therefore support it from an officer point of view and we have had one officer meeting and planning to have another one so it would be occasional meetings just to make sure that we're keeping all the committees as informed as they'd like to be particularly for the committees who aren't so involved i don't think for a committee that chose a lesser level of involvement there would be a significant officer involvement i i think the officer involvement is really going to come down to hopfordshire and hillington probably is the two most invested um are people happy with the third option that we um you know we don't actually take part in the committee but we will receive the football the path of formal communication and get and get full information are people happy with that yeah do i see you're not happy i think given the general unanimity if people are agreeable we go with people are happy with that i mean yeah option b is you actually uh take part in discussions but you're not in a formal scrutiny role you're represented by option the others c is just information sorry chair would it be would it be you that goes up um for option b would it be you that attends the committee going sorry if we took up if we voted for option b and it would be worth to join the committees would it be a councillor or a member of the committee going or would it be officer time i'm just trying to i'll try and ask this i did speak to um the scrutiny officer at to hopfordshire earlier on today and i think the and these options are what the proposal is at the moment option b could change a little bit option c could change a little bit and i'm more than happy to come and update committee um anytime that you like and i think from um uh i think it would be for the for the those sessions and they're going the idea is that they're themed sessions they might look at radiotherapy they might look at chemotherapy they might look at travel and access for example um and those sessions it would be a member of the committee um i think there is a planning session that would be for an officer um obviously it's a public consultation so there'll be other opportunities um to get involved as well and as individuals as much as as committee um so so i would expect and and the the there'll be a an invitation to um a site visit ahead of setting up the joint committee that will be we're just trying to find a date in october and there'll be go out to i think all the chairs and vice chairs and officers um if somebody wanted to delegate it i don't think there's a problem with that okay so um i'm going to suggest we take option c but um but we will but we'll kept informed and we'll ask for speaking we'll ask for information if we need to be further down the road is that agreeable to the committee okay uh that's we're going to recommend yeah okay um but um should we have a formal vote to clarify the position i know what would be your objection well um i wouldn't want to just give it away everything that i would rather opt for option b um only because it's the bernard patient so we need to have not just an update but if there is something um that the scrutiny committee should be made aware of we need that pathway standard for the final patient emma what's it you prefer i wouldn't mind doing option b or option a but i would um i don't know because i don't know like the what this constituency is but i'd be happy to represent the committee if that's what's needed so apologies that's why i'm saying i don't want to do that so can i so my understanding is it's last year it was 106 patients from barneth out of the 12 000 that attempt so that's i think that's why i'd be more keen to say that option c would be fine only because it's such a small percentage of the overall patients i do still think we should have a say and i understand what you're saying but it's just very small the patients but sorry you can disagree emma sorry i'm going to take a vote i'm going to take a vote on this it's probably the best way to resolve it um so um those in frame should see they put their hands up um it's a small number we need to keep the interest of our of the viral patients in the forefront get information sorry i was i was just saying to say perhaps we could all be called the dates of the meeting and the theme of the meeting so that if anybody did want to go and attend they could and emma can always go attend or any of us can say anyone do you mean a member well a member of the committee a bit like attending the josque if we want to any of us are welcome to go so if we knew the dates then that means we are kept informed and it's at some if there may be an occasion for us to attend a further meeting and when the plans come near to fruition because although i think you leave it a bit hazy if we say any member of the committee will attend that's it's a bit sort of halfway out so i would suggest that we go with option c for the most um i'm not suggesting sorry that we shouldn't go with option c but i was saying that if we could have the dates as the public are going to be invited as well surely if we felt like going it would be nice to go question mark yeah i mean my expectation is that these will be public meetings and there's no reason why we wouldn't circulate uh the dates for those meetings and i can work with and make sure that i have no problem with that council the public meetings and people want to go you know it's just the form of our formal position and we'll be doing a lot of workshops and other things and if anyone in an individual capacity would like to get involved we're always looking to hear from patients in the public we've done a huge amount of work early on throughout this so i'm i'm never going to turn away a patient or member of the public from from getting involved thank you very much for your contribution uh today thank you very much and hopefully we'll be kept informed thank you thank you for the questions they're really good questions okay um we're going on to we're going on to option eight now and uh thank you councilor law for your patience i think you're probably used to kind of uh not being the first in the line but uh yeah thank you um yeah helpful you could give us yeah i know i've got a big voice but i know we've got people online so on what's coming up and things that you're feeling to know about from the cabinet and the well-being board thank you thank you well i thought i would just focus on the development of the next joint health and well-being strategy um of course i'm happy to take questions on on other issues and then i've got one little issue at the end that i'll i'll pick up so i just want to set it in context obviously i'd like one of the starting points for the joint health and well-being strategy is that it needs to be founded in good data and so um the joint strategic needs analysis um has a new joint strategic needs analysis was published during the summer there's a member training session next week actually um for so you're all able to get to grips with it and i hope you'll have a chance to listen into that and then get on the site and interrogate it yourself so it's a pivotal digital resource it's on a new platform um so it's um we hope is adding both depth as well as breadth to the data um it is it's obviously excuse me it's obviously really important um for public health but actually one of the uh one of the things that i was really keen to do was was also make it was a strong data resource for services right the way across the council and i'll come back in a minute to to the role they play in health so that's it depth as well as breadth so it's framed around the people place and planet mantra and so that recognizes the very real role of a wider range of services and issues around wider determinants of health so i think that's a really important part of our mission around starting living and aging well but it's also the depth of data where it's been possible to take it down towards sub-ward levels um i think that's really important to look at our health inequalities because often our average figures across the borough will look quite um on a par with london uh or the wider england figures but actually there are pockets of deprivation there are pockets of health inequalities across the borough and obviously one of our roles is to is to find those and start to work on how we can combat that it's a really important starting point for the uh joint health and well-being strategy i just wanted to um remind everyone um about the joint health and well-being strategy um it is the the document that sets the framework alongside its underlying action plans that supports the work of the health and well-being board and our partnership working with the nhs and that's developed significantly over the last several years because of that closer working um with the nhs um the previous current of health and well-being strategy uh runs from 2021 to 25 and i think if council stock were here actually at the meeting she would agree that of the development of that strategy through 2020 you know in the midst of covid lockdowns didn't it did limit the amount of collaborative and consultative work that um that could be done as part of that so we have an opportunity with this next strategy um to to do that um so we're in the final year of the current strategy um we've been delivered on the uh the actions um as part of that each health and well-being board generally that we won't in the september meeting but generally we take a deep dive at the beginning of the meeting for the first hour into key areas often um taking evidence both from council officers about strategic elements but also from nhs partners and voluntary sector partners and i just cite one example of that when we looked at heart health during the spring um we had both council officers talking about the strategy we had community health partners as well as key nhs partners talking about it we also had our health ambassadors talking about their work around and cud um cardiovascular disease that they're doing with key community groups where the prevalence is higher and its impacts on people's life expectancy and healthy life expectancy but we also had a clinician and for all three trust who was talking about the acute work that goes on and some of very innovative projects that they're working on to keep people with heart problems at home and in the community rather than in acute hospitals so we try to bring all of that together as a package um so um what we're looking to do um as we go forward is to um we're looking to define the areas that we're going to focus on over the next four years um and obviously that's in the service of our mission around um helping people live longer healthier lives but actually also tackling inequalities and um we're also very keen to look at areas where we can best add value because there are a lot of partners in this space and we've got to look at those areas where we can best add value as part of that so our timetable for for doing that is that in may we approve the joint strategic needs analysis at the health and well-being board and we um set the joint health and well-being strategy development timetable um from then until um until now it's been a question of developing the narrative on barnet based on the joint strategic needs analysis work because some of that was still a work in progress at that point um looking at desktop reviews around partner strategies so we're aligned and making sure we're adding value around those strategies not least the um the north central london icb health inequalities and population strategy no point in reinventing the wheel it's about adding value um and then looking at desktop reviews of resident engagement on health so we're drawing initially from from from some of those issues that come up um we also be looking at some of the work that the health the a hospice done as well conversation with key partners and then formalizing that input from the vcs and residents in in developing that initial draft um we'll take that at the september um health and well-being strategy at joint at the health and well-being board meeting um and then we'll go into phase during the autumn of co-production with partners um particularly working with the um the uh bonnet um e nhs partners there'll be some co-production with residents um there will be co-production with internal office member stakeholders of which you are a chunky part and developing a draft document and looking at the equalities impact assessment and the health assessment um so that we'll be bringing back a draft document to our january health and well-being board and then during the strip this later winter and spring we'll be consulting formally on that document reviewing and amending that updating our our eqia and health impact assessment on the basis of that and then developing the implementation plans that sit below it and the kpis that will drive and measure that so that we know what we're doing but we also need to know that we've done it and so there's kpis there's key performance indicators and in may 25 so next day um as we finish up on the 21 to 25 plan um we will publish and agree um the joint health well-being strategy and its plans and kpis for 25 to 29 takes us almost to 2030 um so as part of that timetable i expect and welcome input from you as a committee both in your member stakeholder role but actually also in that role of scrutinizing a challenge in the health and well-being board um and so i um have questions but it's a really important part of our our work around developing our health agenda and health and uh attacking health inequalities and then finally one quick footnote at the previous meeting you were talking about um cancer diagnosis and um just wanted you to be aware um that is what you'll be aware as part of that that there is some degree of health inequalities across the borough there's um there is inequality of uptake with some of our communities particularly for routine testing like cervical breast and prostate cancer and we um have we're optimistic about getting a grant jointly with harangay um to work on ways to tackle that um lack of uptake in some communities and it'll be using our health ambassadors um and that's very much about looking at peer coaching and peer work so that we get into those communities and understand why they're resistant why they're not taking up those opportunities and making sure that we give them those opportunities and encourage them to do so so happy to take any questions on that but looking forward to um another the next eight months or so of developing the next strategy doing that in partnership any questions on this or you know general wider health matter more than a question it's just about um it's also mental health service is he being looked at at the same time we in the current strategy there is a strand around mental health um it has it's clearly probably it's clearly an area that um that is of concern um and we've got obviously the um our our um mental health trust is going through um has been going through changes but um they are at a point so the barner and harangay mental health trust is working very closely with and will become part of a single trust with um the camden and islington trust so um yes i hope we will we will have a strand that sits around that but that's subject to the working that we all do during the autumn in terms of developing that strategy but we've had a couple of quite meaty sessions um with the mental health trust actually or with mental health as an item on our agenda but yeah i i think um post-clovid particularly but not only it's a really important area so i would look to be doing that yeah yes i know they're coming up later um but i'm just wondering with the um i think it was did you say health champions um i'm wondering if that's something you do through health watch and how you're going about that and i always keep bringing up things like boost and things like that and getting the word out there because i'm finding that you'll bring up lots of interesting things so yeah two strands um our health champions are a broader group set up initially as kovid champions um during um during lockdown a number i know of people around the this committee and across member the member body have been part of that but it draws on members of the community and it uh have um lots of lots of briefings some online now some online meetings and and team working um but um and some of those um individuals have gone on to be trained as mental health champions as well so um they run sessions in libraries and listening sessions in libraries there's quite a lot of work there that's relatively low key but it's that's at a general level but it's very much about sharing information having discussions and helping people cascade that out to their resident or community group contacts health ambassadors are a rather more sophisticated they are there is some remuneration involved they are part of particular communities where we have challenges within engagement as well as access and they are they take on a much more proactive role within their communities and so we have an ambassador win within the Somali community who's been working very much with uh well on a whole range of issues within the community also uh within the Romanian community because there were very particular issues there but there are there are ambassadors in a number of communities and areas and healthy hearts program comes under thinks in that and those are run health champions is run through ground works um and the ambassadors program is is also um is part run there as well so yes health what does have a have a link into it but it's it's specifically through ground works um and the principle really is actually so much of this is about confidence and behavior change um and and helping people understand we've got a wonderfully diverse borough but people come with really different histories in terms of their knowledge and engagement with health services some of our migrant communities health monitoring has been the last thing on their mind when they had existential um you know they've been in war-torn areas so it's about helping them understand the things that they can do to stay healthy and and have healthy as well as long lives but also childhood vaccination uptake um is a key area at the moment because the the measles um as well so it's it's right the way across the piece it's some of it's about healthier longer lives and some bits about children's vaccinations and health um yeah just following on that do you see um in terms of the strategy going forward for work on to do with ethnic minorities um for the black community we know about the um the instance of mental you know mental illness mental health just proportionate in some of these communities do you see that as a a a bigger area of work for the future i think we've got to be clear about the areas where we can make an impact and that's why i cited the healthy hearts project because cardiovascular disease clearly does have a disproportionate impact on some communities it ties in so to smoking to diabetes to keeping fit and active and so there's a whole nest of issues um and levers we have to support people to get better half do a better heart health um but the same would be true to a great degree around um around mental health for example in particular communities so if it's underpinned by health inequalities and we we can see proactive levers i think it's that's really important about how we bring those partners together to do that but i also think there's the work with peers and so this is really important because with all due respect sitting a set of us sitting around in the committee and telling people how they should all run their lives is a bit you know paternalistic it's about helping people to understand the benefits and supporting them in making those those changes and we have a lot of impact through fit and active bonnet actually helping people to to stay fitter and tackling you know we know we have a childhood a problem with childhood obesity in the world but actually there's also an issue around adult weight problems and weight control the other questions too most of them are emma did you want to i'm having to pick my question now sorry um uh i say i i'm just gonna pull something from the josh i'm sorry if that's not appropriate but um there was something in there about short-term contracts um and just that fact that a lot of the contracts for health and social care and all the things like that through the council tend to be a year or two years and apologies if i got this wrong but you were a lot of your plans tend to be for four years till 2029 and i'm just wondering and i don't know if you can come back and answer this but how how do you envision envision that working when you have to constantly change contracts and providers and there's no actual consistency and way of managing that so yeah well i guess the point of a strategy is thinking how you want to play how you want to develop your action plan around key um key um aims um but yes i think there are some challenges around um around funding because quite a lot of what we do is grant funded within the public health grant or within other um funding streams and so there is a tendency to have to have contracts and renewals but building that in um as far as possible into a longer-term strategy means that we're thinking ahead um we're not just saying no it'll it'll end that you're thinking you're thinking ahead so for example the the grant that we're looking at for for the cancer um cancer diagnosis um cancer screening work is part of an ongoing program that we just some of it's opportunistic and this is this has come up but some of it is very much planned and you'll think ahead about contract renewals where you want to focus the next contract kind of some more uh in the absence of any further questions thanks very much for your update thank you and i'm looking to talking to you as part of this journey on the health and well-being strategy just to say i think we've got to get an apology from council edwards family member who's not well the minute the joss minutes are in the agenda um there were two meetings in may to do with quality accounts uh which i believe council barnes accounts jack about who were able to attend and that was after the previous main meeting uh which was to do with mental health uh issues so they looked at mental health in depth there's a lot of information there about um well obviously there's the quality accounts input into that and then um the the one on the 18th of march which was fighting mental health groups to come and listen to presentation on the icb so not just to note those minutes um i think the next item we're going on is to look at and agree the primary care the gp fast and finish group report um which you should have been seen in the papers um and uh i just want to say i thought it read very well and there was you know was very impressive document in terms of research um that went into it um and the the issues for the public and the creases in demand and um the group obviously got to communicate changes and changes in primary care you know to the public uh this recommendation i gather council smearing smith and if you want to say a few words and maybe the other members i think council bonds i'm not sure council sergeant we want that in the gp you know if any other members okay that's probably you're all you're on it right okay so i don't yeah thank you chair on behalf of council stop i'm very pleased to have the opportunity to present this particular report and particularly want to thank all the members of the committee who are involved clearly we have council bonds council pearlman sergeant well as obviously council stock herself and in particular the work that tracy scollan has done to produce this excellent report on our behalf and we're extremely grateful there are three principal represent recommendations coming out of this report in terms of process which is set out in the beginning papers which i'm sure you're very familiar with and don't need me to address the main recommendations in this report are contained on page six one has to be absolutely honest we are not the nhs these are issues primarily that have to be addressed by the nhs they're not going to be dealt with by barnet we have made some specific recommendations that we like suggest go forward which are about communication with the count with presidents generally barnet about the roots into the nhs and various services we talk about the funding to support the large and increasing population i had a particular problem i tried to analyze the spreadsheets used by the nhs to allocate funding to try and work out how they calculate the money for barnet it was an impossible task because they don't give you the really and they just put a batch of numbers down and it's impossible to track how they've done it not an impressive performance and i was unable to get much further with that but we do clearly need more into barnet because of the aging population which is not to take an account of as i understand it we do need to work on communication between the primary and secondary sectors very important something that came up frequently our meetings with various surgeries people from the nhs and again telephony was an important factor which we gradually get improved fundamentally the issue that came out loud and clear the desperate shortage of resources in the primary sector a lack of gps many are many of them going part-time just uh that's way beyond the current capacity of the system that's quite tough for us to address uh i'd say it's uh very impressive and a lot of a lot of data in the backup the recommendations i wonder if any other members committee would like to account to sergeant i'd like to tribute of the dire shortage of resources i think i ought to just put something in into the minds of the committee that one of the gps we were interviewing actually put his head in his hands that's how concerned he was and i know we say dire but i really was extremely concerned and i think you know i'd just like to reiterate what she said i think it's on its knees we're not the first people to say that it's on its knee um um tracy very has very well put some of the um the attempts that are being made in terms of providing additional resources in terms of other practitioners but it's not really going to be sufficient i think because we have this dire concern i mean the fact we've got fewer gps now i think that is the overriding concern i have there are fewer gps now than there were and we have an increasing population uh and i know the you know and i know people are desperately trying to find other ways to do it but however you you mix it it is still extremely concerning and i think it needs to be looking at what practices are into this epp putting his head in his hands when we were being when we were interviewing him would you like to agree with me well i can totally confirm what council sergeant was saying i think the fundamental problem though is that we're desperately short of medical school places in this country that is a problem that's going to take 15 20 years and so on and very little movement has taken place on this issue and frankly the whole trend of having more part-time gps gps is has put greater pressure on the whole system i personally have a lot of experience with it because my ex-wife with the gp and then a consultant daughter is my son-in-law i've worked in here so i've seen this over the last 40 50 years and it's getting far worse i have no obvious solution um yes because you're clearly asking the itb to have a communications campaign to inform social work videos and leaflets to inform patients about changes to the system that doesn't necessarily help them to create more gps but public information i assume the recommendation of funding uh part of this is to take account of the elderly the aging population in barnet increasing number of older people increasing number of people discharged so you're asking them to look again at funding no doubt they will cite one of the national funding issues but i i guess that's where it's coming from well that's actually right chair because when you actually try and look at the numbers what you discover is what they've done with the numbers is they don't take the actual population of barn they show you pre-weighted numbers so they've already done some calculations you've no idea what those are you don't know to what extent they've taken account of the aging population we have and we certainly can't compare that with other places and try to get that information seem to be an impossible task i'd be happy to spend as much time as possible on it it just wasn't the uh you know i and others have raised the issue about funding formula on it and so perhaps this will be a way in to engaging the icb on that whole discussion um uh is there anything else uh obviously this will go to i'm not saying this will go to the once we've agreed it yes we'll go to cabinet subject to approval on the 21st council stock will be i don't i don't know if it's presented to stock can be there too but she's done a lot of work with this which is you know she's made important contributions to be able to help present it to cabinet uh right sarah did you want to i should be on this particular report please yeah i would like to yeah no it's fantastic to see the report and uh really appreciate all the work that's gone into putting it together absolutely agree with the recommendations um i mean i suppose it's just a bit of an update um that um we are i don't know how many of you are aware of this we're doing can people hear me okay you can hear me we can hear you yeah good good good sorry my dog's barking really loudly in the background slightly disconcerting sorry about that um so yeah we're doing a piece of work with health watch and field across north central london looking at primary character so we've been given a small amount of funding by the integrated care board and what we're doing is we're looking at gp websites so we're starting that work at the moment reviewing the gp websites in barnet we're going to do some mystery shopping work with phone lines and we're also going to be next year producing a guide to how to access your gp which is something health watch and field have done it's been very successful it's for the public we want to do the same in barnet so um that's what we're up to with that islington i don't apologies if people are already aware but islington gp federation have got the contract until march they're doing quite a bit of work with gp surgeries particularly in barnet around access and we're working with them so for example the recommendation around the phone lines in the report that's very much something that is in gp federation they're working in barnet as well very much something they're working on so just to let people know about that i mean i agree i think with the work to rule as well that's happening at the moment with gps it's even more urgent that people are aware of different options in terms of accessing primary care and i would be very happy we're doing various coms on that if there's someone in barnet council comms department or something who would be good for us to link in with i'd be really happy to do that there are quite a few materials sort of national materials already available that we use for our social media and that kind of thing which are quite useful like informing people about allied healthcare professionals that type of stuff so just putting all that out there yep thank you sarah that's very helpful it sounds like this report the right track as well in terms of what other people are doing um so uh sorry yes just before we wrap up because i i just want to say uh i think this was an example of a very good uh partnership between all the committee and i really would like to say not only did was did tracy do an excellent report but the committee were the the task and finish group worked extremely well together and i and i just wanted to to say that note that and um this would go to cabinet hopefully they um possibly agreed it uh they will approve it and this would then go to icb you know put pressure on uh then go to icb for comment and we want to action and we want to follow we will follow up what their responses are to this uh in our work program just one thing um where sarah has mentioned that that is linton are doing research into barnett's gps what why is that happening and barnett don't know i'm just a bit confused should we come back to just a side note yes we'll have dealing with the house watch report in a minute so yeah we'll pick that one up okay um is people happy to formally adopt this task and finish report um and uh send it to cabinet uh with our approval i agree thank you very much to all those who worked on it um you made it a bit of a hard act to follow for the the task and finish groups coming up um so the next item is the watch report which you've got in front of you and hopefully uh i know it's there if you want to make it so make a few comments obviously we've got the report but it's anything you want to mention that just deal with that point about so as emma's point about islington and uh you know a single out key work that you're doing thank you yeah sure so um yeah emma i understand your question can you all hear me well are you you can hear me okay you can hear me okay good good sorry i think there's a slight blip and i couldn't hear you yeah emma i understand the question um basically what happened the integrated care board for north central london they did an invitation to tender it was open to anybody to apply and islington gp federation i think it's accurate to say they they gave a really good bid and they are performing really well on it they were just the best provider that the integrated care board could find but they are working very closely we're meeting them with them very regularly about barnet they're working closely very closely with gp surgeries and barnet so and it's actually barn it's a particular focus for them so it's not we're not i wouldn't say that we're getting short changed in any way but we also need to be aware their funding goes on until march after that they will be moving on it's just the nature you know we've been talking about uh these projects but yeah that's i don't know if that helps but that's the um that's that's the deal with that i'm gonna so i have prepared a presentation um oh sorry i'm just gonna we've actually we've got the report okay you can keep it short just i will yeah sure so what are you thinking like two or three minutes or yeah just a couple of minutes on if you want to pick out the key points sure yeah i'll i'll whiz through this um and i'll say briefly about uh some things we've done in the last six months as well um yes so in uh 2023 to 24 more than a thousand people shared their experiences of health and social care with us over 13 000 came to us for information and signposting most of them through our website um yeah i won't go into all of this this is stats about what we're doing um this is our community connectors project on blood pressure we did over 960 blood pressure checks uh particularly working with people in more deprived areas and we had lots of positive feedback in terms of people not knowing they had high blood pressure finding that out and planning to take key actions like 28 percent of the people with high blood pressure plan to do more exercise um it's all that's all in the report we've been doing lots of work around sharing the learning from that working with colleagues in the health and well-being board cardiovascular disease test and finish group to get the recommendations implemented um we visited uh four care homes and also the two primary care walk-in centers we've made recommendations about improvements that could be made vast majority have been accepted and are being implemented um yeah our healthy heart project i think you're all aware of um worked with over 900 residents in the last six months of last year and we've continued into a third year now so we're really delighted to be able to continue that work a lot of that is about supporting people with health inequalities to get help from their gp and we've got stats showing that it's effective and doing that um we're also doing policy work coming out of that around like access to interpreters with the royal free london and it's very much feeding into our primary care project um we're doing a piece of work very interested to hear about the health and well-being board potentially doing stuff for our cancer screen we've been doing a piece of research on that particularly with global majority residents this is in the last few months over the summer looking at barriers to people accessing screening so that is something we're working on now is the analysis of that um yeah we're good to the details but we've got lots of interesting findings and we have been doing other work around hospital discharge with yourselves with this committee and in other areas feeding into the health and well-being strategy and working with the care quality commission so that's just like a really quick um overview and this is what we've got coming up we're continuing our healthy heart project we've got a second wave of our community connectors work we've got funding for that we're going to be looking specifically at mealtimes and care homes we're doing a thematic report and i've already talked about the primary care work that we're doing as well so yeah that's the very very quick version of that presentation um and you do have the annual report yeah thank you sarah uh you obviously work like you know you build partnerships with lots of groups in barner and um that's very impressive particularly on you know high blood pressure it's kind of a invisible problem in a way um i just wondered what what the learnings you have in terms of what's the most effective forms of communication you find with residents what you find works the best in the way that you approach them and try and communicate messages anything particular that you think works well yeah i mean broadly i mean i think i suppose there's two sides to it there's the online side of it and i think we do have to acknowledge of course not everybody can access the internet but most people do and most people do engage with social media so that is really important way to spread messages i mean i think images are really important they're simple messages links to information that's relevant for people you know all the standard things really plain english but i think really to reach out to these communities who are experiencing health inequalities face-to-face events are so important we managed to do 47 face-to-face events you know in partnership we collaborate with our partners um in the last year we worked really closely like our healthy heart project we were really closely with the smiley center of excellence um you know the barnet asian women's association and various grassroots groups and i think building up over time as well so now in the third year we're really starting to get with gp surgeries we're getting better connections with them and reaching um harder to or less heard groups through that we're reaching the nepalis community and um different nigerian community communities that we didn't have as many connections with over time we're building them up so i think you need both elements really are online and face-to-face and to keep reiterating things you know and um yeah listening to people's feedback really i i hope that gives a bit of a flavor um thank you thank you uh does members have any i think they'd like to ask uh council barnes okay thank you very much um you mentioned care home meal times and i wondered what what the focus was what you're particularly looking at uh with those yeah absolutely so what we'll be doing we work closely with the care quality team barnet council care quality team and the cqc obviously our role we don't have the powers that the cc has so we need to try and focus on things like uh you know the environment um conditions that could maybe be improved unchampioning the best practice so we're planning to go into five or six care homes we're starting this quite soon and we're going to be um yet observing the meal time talking to staff about meal times talking to the residents and any relatives we uh try to publicize its relatives so that relatives can come and talk to us as well just getting people's feedback and i'm imagining based on what we've done before it potentially maybe things around disability sorry around um dementia friendly decor and dementia friendly like meal place settings and that kind of thing choice for residents residents having some understanding of the different options you know if they have advanced dementia there's ways of communicating that to them those those are the types of things we think we'll be looking at and if we come across anything more serious we of course share that information with the care quality team and the cqc and they're following up on that we have done some reports which are on our website last year but we want to have this specific focus because we feel we can have more of an impact by having that specific focus on an area like meal times and the cqc really support that they've said look we can't look in as much detail as we'd like to but it really affects people's day-to-day life you know their experience of meal times so um yeah that's that's the sort of gist of what we're looking to do that okay thank you very much emma which is my choice um that uh joint funded project with emfield yeah is that focused on barnet residents as well yeah we we are focused on barnet um so what they've i don't know how much uh you know in terms of the icb figures but when you look at the gp patient survey there are more people who are dissatisfied in barnet compared to the other north central and numerous in terms of gp access so the way we've split it up we basically are doing half of the project and we're just focused on barnet and field is looking at enfield but also camden islington and harringay but because there's a larger number in barnet that's why um islington gp federation's very focused on barnet as well because there's more negative scores in terms of the gp patient survey yeah so so our work we collaborate with the others but our work on that is really focused on barnet yeah um just one other question but i don't know if it's for dawn really um so in terms of uh actually um letting uh residents and carers know about health watch yeah um so that they can report the issues that they're having and i know that health watch don't act as a advocate but it's not very well known i've only just found out about them myself yeah yeah i was wondering um i think council lately brought it up when we were having the royal free uh yearly review thing about the calendar of it and i was thinking about health watch is kind of similar to um a process like pals and what i notice is as a resident and somebody that receives services from the london borough barnet there isn't anything there to say that health watch exists and that's somewhere you can go so i was wondering if um health watch could be added to things in barnet at the end of correspondence and things like that yeah maybe i don't know barnet barnet council i'm just putting that out there it doesn't have to be barnet council website but i i can definitely be in touch with people about that yeah i've put something in the chat about that and we are i know i'm in i'm in touch with people at mencap because it'd be great to do some more joint publicity there because people can share their feedback with us their anonymous feedback we will signpost them we can't investigate their cases but we will record that feedback and we do use that you know really regularly in the work that we're doing so yeah i mean i don't know um i mean i've got a couple of contacts in um like barnet council comms people i could reach out to them and just see what would be appropriate in terms of that but we will yeah we can publicize the work of health watch yeah our publications and websites you said good point um um questions thank you very much sir for that input thank you date from the uh that's the finish groups she's just tells you about where we are they where they are and several of them seem to be you know going to be approved by their own committees and then going to cabinet which is good and including home education etc youth homelessness and uh the others that are ongoing work so there's a whole um it's a whole schedule there's only the in terms of other items there is the cabinet there's the cabinet forward plan which is for someone um any comments on that and then we've got our own there's kind of yeah to tell you come out including the task and finish group and then uh we've got our forward plan uh for the next few meetings um so uh i was thinking a suggestion that have a themed meeting for the next item the next meeting because we've got the public health it's on the general public health plan and thought might be interesting to look at more in focus that um i mean obviously we cover other items that are that are important but we take a particular look on topic um i believe other committees particularly on public health and qualities which is um so well and uh um the next meeting that you know but uh but i don't know if people get some good idea but i think you know more topics more topics in depth uh wouldn't be a bad thing for us and we learn more about particular issues can i just clarify i'm not anti-presentation i just think sometimes we often run out of time to ask questions and i just i think it's more important for us to ask questions i also think a brief report is helpful but sometimes they are just reading out things that we've we've already read um and just because we all in this committee ask a lot of questions that's all so it's important but i learned that about the quality accounts all the time ago but you know we don't need to rehab have massive presentations where we've already got force you know but in terms of effectiveness
Transcript
what does that say two minutes past oh okay uh welcome to the committee members thanks for um attending tonight um i hope you had a good summer um which seems to be nearly over now um uh no meetings may be recorded and broadcast by people present as allowed for in law by the council by intending either personal online you may be picked up on recordings a council call is covered you know uh turn it off when you finish speaking um so we have so um minutes of the trip then the absences tonight Chakrabarti apologies from Councillor Chakrabarti for what lateness due to volunteer and working as a support worker at barnet main camp working with health watch volunteer at age uk barnet as well and i mention anything else as i remember it sorry um waters is um on online remotely are you there emma yes hello um hello i'm cancer cohen do you want me to just share my screen to begin the presentation sorry can you hear me yeah can you speak uh just speak up a little bit hi can you hear me now just keep talking sorry um um can you hear me now no uh i think now we need to just work on on the volume a bit uh can you hear us okay yes yes just to say i don't know if you can hear me well i can hear emma well from the video connection so i don't know if that helps identify anything okay emma it's not particularly good um i don't know whether you can speak up or turn your volume up in any way um you talk to us and we can tell um can you can you hear me at all can you hear me a little bit yeah we can hear you a little bit oh right sorry i didn't realize i thought you couldn't hear me at all can you i mean i'm speaking quite loudly now i don't know if it's um online i don't know is that okay can you hear me now um yeah i think we'll have to go with with that and we'll all be incredibly quiet as well i'm sorry um so uh i assume you've got a a brief um presentation yeah let me just show um yeah let me just show my share my screen okay oh sorry don't see that i don't know why my presentation's gone i'm sorry okay so hello everyone my name's emma waters i'm a public health consultant in barnet and i cover children and young people um i've been asked to come here today to um present on updates on our oral health action plan and working groups and general oral health in barnet if you really can't hear me um please sort of raise your hands and i'll stop um so thank you for having me um so oral health as i i as i said in the report and i'm sure you're aware is a key marker of general health in children and tooth decay and poor oral health is preventable so an important you can't hear me she's got to check uh with the members can you come on here it must be very difficult can you hear me online is it my yeah i can hear you very clearly emma okay yeah you're very faint yeah perhaps we'll just try and see if we can do that if you just hold on a minute okay thank you yeah if you could just speak and we'll just see if we can do it through through the through a laptop oh i'm really sorry thank you very much um hello i'll start again um just to introduce myself quickly my name is emma waters i'm a public health consultant in barnet speaking about all health in children today um so as i said in the report oral health is a key marker of general health in children and tooth decay is preventable so an important public health issue poor oral health can impact on children's ability to sleep eat and play and cause discomfort poor oral health represents a significant financial cost to the nhs and it's not evenly distributed within populations with significant health inequality the cause of this tooth became socially determined as social factors can influence dietary behaviors tooth brushing behaviors and potentially ability to access dental services therefore a whole systems approach is required to improve oral health with wide with system-wide partnership working um sorry my thing is now not working um so i presented some of this data today um the national detrimental epidemiology program um does regular surveys of different populations but every other year always surveys five-year-olds could have really key time to look at all health in children um so the last survey in 2022 had very wide confidence intervals because um there was not a good sample achieved um so it's difficult to compare the samples between um areas the barn in other areas and with the previous survey results however um what we can say is a significant number of children in barnet have um dental cavities um and also that our rate was higher than the england average which is the case for most of london concern um really um as we know it has such a significant impact on child health um and it's just to say here that poor health obviously has a similar etiology to to a healthy weight and in barnet healthy weight in children is also a significant problem but actually we're doing relatively well with healthy weight compared to um london and england as you would probably expect because barnet although it has obviously has significant deprivation is relatively affluent um so this shows that um all health um is an area of concern compared to other comparable health indicators so it is an area of significant concern in barnet um and also to say um we are working to improve the uptake of the survey and this year there was a much better uptake achieved so hopefully we'll get much better data from this the certain year that's just gone survey um so in 2022 as you know there was an oral health health needs assessment undertaken which was shared with you and presented at the time to you as well as a result of that a multi-agency oral health action plan was developed and an oral health partnership group was formed um and since the um development of the oral health action plan is being regularly um they've been regular it's the oral health act partnership group has met regularly to monitor the progress of the action plan um focus areas for the oral health partnership group include supervised tooth brushing schemes um supervised tooth brushing scheme have a good evidence base behind them and have been to be associated with significant reductions in the proportion of children having the k experience by the age of five and the icb is now funding a supervised tooth brushing scheme across ncl they will offer supervised tooth brushing in the five most deprived awards in barnet um to early years barnet public health alongside bells and family services are now supporting the icb to implement the ncl tooth brushing scheme with input put from the oral partnership or health partnership group um the next um area is the oral health promotion team in barnet which is funded from public health and delivered by witterton health um however we have very small amounts of funding for this and the oral health promotion team is effectively one oral health promoter who is then managed by the healthy rate manager with input also from um the um the wider um witterton health pro healthy child program um the oral health promotion team is as recommended by the health and need assessment focusing on health education of the workforce and has developed a health staff education plan um there is a need for further development of the staff education plan um specific training um for looked after children's teams and carers um and also um identification of oral health champions within the healthy child program and the early years workforce which is behind schedule um we're also focusing on oral health communications and material and materials we've developed um health promotion leaflets and education materials and we're looking into developing a more in-depth communication plan um as well as um working alongside um colleagues such as barnet health ambassadors um to promote oral health and communities more effectively um oral health pats consisting of age-appropriate toothpaste toothbrush and health information leaflets are now routinely delivered by the healthy child program at one year and two five-year reviews um we've also developed we've also um previously um delivered packs of all health packs in the base holiday scheme um and to migrant health teams along but um there've been some we haven't had funding to do that this year that was last year um but the oral health packs in the in the one and two point five year reviews are continuing um next steps um we're looking to support um regular health packs to migrants and we're looking into the feasibility of delivering all health packs in the base holiday schemes again because that was a very well evaluated and really very well received sorry um innovation um fluoride varnishing which is some recommended by the health needs assessment to consider whether we can provide it with additional funding we did look into it and obviously if we had the funding we'd very much like to provide fluoride varnishing um however um there was insufficient funding when we looked into the costs um so instead the focus is on supervised toothbrushing and further promotion of the free fluoride varnishing that families can receive through nhs dentists um dental access and registration um we've continued to promote we continue to try and promote the parents ability to access nhs in dentists through the find the dentist tool because there are nhs dentists environment accepting children and young people and we've got communications planned for mid-september um to promote this tool again and also to vote both among parents and um professionals looking after children so they can promote it to parents too um then the final thing is this whole systems approach to oral health and in barnet we recognize um the multifactorial causes of poor oral health and it's all health is considered within other public health programs and the oral health partnership group members which includes clinicians family services looked after children's nurses work to promote oral health across the system um we developed a making every contact count um module around oral health for children um finally we work to support the national dental epidemiology program as we said um and to improve the uptake of the survey for next year um so that's just a summary of the report i hope you could hear some of it i'll stop sharing my screen and ask um about any questions thank thank you uh Emma can you hear me i can hear you very clearly yeah good yeah we can see you um just on one point could you just say what fluoride varnishing is um yes so i'm not dentally trained i'm a medic um but my but so i have a very a lay person's understanding of fluoride varnishing um so literally a varnish of fluoride is applied to children's teeth but it takes very little time um it can be applied from the ages well i don't know if it can be applied younger it would be routinely be recommended to be applied from the age of three upwards every six months it's literally just putting it on the teeth and then allowing it to settle and then reapplying every six months thank you um thank you for the report i think it's very impressive um report setting up partnership group and setting and train training you know for the wider workforce and the tooth brushing pilots um i just want a couple of questions um what obviously the treatment you know went right down during the pandemic i mean kind of shocking you know really low levels and then it started to pick up um is that gonna um get back to pre-pandemic when we're going to get back to some pre-pandemic levels of treatment um you mean of sorry i didn't interrupt so yeah the second question just about access um uh about access of to dentists you know the problem of finding a dentist and if if you were getting more people registered would there be the dentist to actually uh cope with cope with that there are two questions for me and then i'll open it up to them yeah yeah no and they're both valid questions obviously thank you for them um so you're right there has been an increase on in but it's not gone up to the pre-pandemic levels but even the pre-pandemic levels were only just over 50 percent of children having i can't remember exactly how it's defined but relatively regular dental checks um so um obviously we want so we've gone up to i think about 45 percent when i looked at the figures um so that it was that's an estimate because i had to work the figures out myself i don't know exactly correct but i looked at the number of dental appointments in the population um so um so it's not quite at the pre-pandemic levels and the pre-pandemic levels weren't great we our aim is to increase that it's something we can measure so it's something we can look at success in and we're promoting that's why we're promoting um access to dentists i there is access to dentists in barnet there are dentists accepting children but i completely take the point that if old children access dentists and children barnet we don't know that there wouldn't there would be dental access and also there's a point that today there are dentists accepting children in barnet depending on family's resources they may or may not ever be able to travel to the dentists accepting the children so that's another issue um but we need to we are we work with the icb and we keep them informed on our work so if we see more children being accepted by dentists we hope that they'll be able to create more what more more they'll be able to meet that demand but yes it is it is an issue that we can at the moment we can promote it in the knowledge that there will be dentists accepting children but there might come a point where we have to consider whether we want to promote what what to do if people can't access dentists then promoting the dental services might not be might have to re-evaluate that and work with the icb who are the people who commission the dental services thank you um are there any questions uh council weekly and emma number j thank you i have a couple if that's okay thank you um the first question i just wanted to ask was about um dental care and neglect and safeguarding issues in the report it says that dental care professionals should receive regular safeguarding training i'm quite worried about the should there so could you answer what should mean and why it's not do receive safeguarding training okay no i think that's my mistake sorry and also just out of the programs we've run you might not have the figures but have many safeguarding incidents come up or any reports being made you know out of the programs okay council's been helping with thank you oh yeah so i don't think it should is the wrong word that's just me not writing in clear english i we've we repeatedly this is the local dental committee members who are on the um health promotion group and they are very confident that women that they are that the the dental professionals are getting regular safeguarding training because it's part of their registration they need it so although i can't tell you i don't have the figures they i've checked with them repeatedly and they've been very able to reassure me that that is the case um within the regular appointments dentist appointments they tell me actually very rare for them to see cases of neglect because the problem is that with dentists because you don't have to be registered dentist you don't have to take your child for regular dental checkups they only see the children whose parents are bringing them in so they think they're so they don't regularly see you are absolutely correct that within our supervised toothbrushing schemes and within the oral epidemiology the um the dental epidemiology surveys they are a wider breadth of children see as though parents can still choose to withdraw their consent i don't know how many safeguarding issues are picked up in those programs and i can look into it and get back to you because i think that's a really interesting point um again there's still an issue that parents need to consent to them but they're they're not slightly different so i think it's a really interesting question and i look into it thank you yeah i was more wondering when they're going to schools because i imagine if they're taking them to a dentist they're probably not neglecting their children because that wouldn't really make sense but it's more when they're going into school yeah schools are concerned more generally about dental or hygiene or dental neglect is that something they can report in for safeguarding and is it something schools are aware of as well actually i think it does come up in the training i'm assuming it would be reported through them through the mash like any other but i i can look into the route because i'm i'm not but i would assume it had to go through the mash but let me look into it sorry that's helpful thank you and then my second question sorry um i wanted to ask about looked after children i was a bit concerned actually about the disappointed about the 69 percent of our looked after children that have dental checks i think reading the report we're trying to encourage parents to ensure that children have good dental care and that they're getting dental checks i think obviously we're corporate parents we're looking after the looked after children for only 69 percent of them to have regular dental checks i think is actually really i can't think of a word that isn't too strong but it's really disappointing we can't we're not leading by a good example and i think it should be the priority over all the other programs because if if our looked after children aren't even accessing that care i think that's really bad it's not really a question yeah i need no no it's completely yeah agreed i need to talk to look we need to get new data on that and talk to looked after children nurses because we've been working with them since the health needs assessment around um dental access and they do do regular health reviews for all looked after children even the ones who are not within barnet they will they i mean i spoke to them recently they took to manchester to do a face-to-face of youth they are doing them that they are trying to make sure that parents that there's dental registration and gp registration um so i will ask them for more up to date figures i'm not saying they have improved but it's a good good point we need to see where we because we've been working with them but actually we haven't checked where they are with it chair could we ask that it's reported back to us about the looked after children because i know a few other members are also concerned about that figure and if we could have an update that would be brilliant thank you uh apart the actions dog oh sorry emma was better yeah brilliant question councilor waitley i also wondered emma is it worth just flagging this with somebody like tina mcgillan who's responsible for you know our look after children's service in the round and that's yeah um i think the reference to corporate yeah no i will i will raise it with her too because it's not all on the dental the the looked after children's nurses they coordinated but they need the um they need the carers and the to be supporting and working with them on this exactly because if children don't sorry can't i think it's we should be just exploring every avenue no no you're completely right yeah hi i'm following on from uh council like these questions um i mean this is a children and young people's or oral health action fan but i think um i'm wondering whether it needs to be sort of integrated into an adult one as well because it feels like there's a wider issue around the culture around brushing teeth then we're talking about um looked after children but then i think council like these points about how um identifying if people and children have safeguarding needs through teeth brushing and i think councilor stock brought up an idea of having in some boroughs there are i think it was uh uh mobile uh dentist bands and i feel like maybe that would help um potentially and then also the other question i had is that if there are dentists that are further away um is it within the budget for people to be provided funding to get to those dentists and would that information be made available to people um to let them know sorry emma yeah emma did you get the two questions okay um so around the um access to dentists and some kind of mobile van i don't know of any boroughs that actually have a mobile van but i i did hear council stop in that respect that was have mobile vans and and do the floor varnishing and while they're doing the floor advantage and they are looking in the mouth and then might um report concerns but i don't know of any actual dental checks which is slightly more in depth than the floor varnishing but maybe there are some boroughs doing it we as as we discussed we don't commission the nh the dental services they're commissioned by the icb and so i think we could raise it with them that maybe it's something that that could be looked into the icb are working on preventative measures why they fund the supervised tooth washing program and they've taken that money out of the nhs dental money to try and work on prevention as well um but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be putting forward other ideas too but i can't comment on the feasibility of that scheme and the costs of it um yeah because it's um it's um we i don't work in you know in nhs dental commissioning um but i do know that they are they are considering um prevention within the icb and they obviously also work with the dental public health consultants but at the moment the proportion of money spent on dental prevent on prevention and all the health promotion compared to the costs of dental costs is a fraction of it so if we could do something to to increase that amount and have more health promotion that would obviously be preferable um and your second question i'm really sorry i can't remember thatly specifically what your second question was i'm sorry adults oh the adults yes sorry um integrating i don't know if you have a adult or health care plan but i was thinking about um the culture and how um encouraging adults to you know it's essentially adults that need to take children to get their no you're right and so i was just wondering about integrating that into it um but also about um you were saying about um lots of dentists are available but they're outside of people's areas and so money to travel to those places is that something that and i know i'm asking a funding question and i'm aware of that yeah no no no no it's a reasonable question i mean i don't i'm not saying they are necessarily out of people's areas i'm saying that you might not have access to them but not all dentists are accepting nhs children onto their lists which would make me assume that people might their nearest dentists might not be accessible to them and they might have to travel further obviously in london it's less of an issue because distances are probably smaller than in a rural area but even so there might be that could affect access i don't have any information on exactly how that affects access if we know when i typed in postcodes to see there have been dentists accepting relatively near but they're a father certainly we don't have any funding for that i don't think the icb do but i can look into it i it's not as far as i'm aware there would be any funding but i can look into it if there is funding obviously it should be promoted um for children's dentists there's no right to choose then well there's a right to choose what's available i don't think it doesn't work in the same way as the right to use an appointment when you when you go but they're the right to choose the available of dentists but if they haven't got capacity and they're not accepting choosing to accept children's their list then you can't yeah you can just choose from the dentist that accepting children with regards to the oh sorry do you want me to carry on there was another part of the question about um adults do you want me to have you finished that there was just emma's final point was about integrating with adults which i think is a really good point we don't have any funding attached to add or health so that currently there isn't an adult or health action plan but i completely i think it's a really important point and thank you for raising it we should at least be looking at educating families when we when we send out our comms so that we that's the opportunity to support parents as well and hopefully improve their children's or health as well so i think it's a really good point and thank you i was going to ask about um the fluoride varnishing and you mentioned that we're not doing it at the moment because of the cost what what sort of cost is involved in that um i actually i did look this up and i don't have the figures to hand um i can um i can send them to you though it's i mean it's not per child it's relatively cheap but when you when you look at it on a council level i think it was it was if you were going to do even just targeted more deprived areas it would be more than our current or health promotion budget which is around um 60 000 pounds and that plays for our health promotion promoter and a bit of other um work um so we just we don't have any more money for it so we had hoped that we might be able to target the more deprived areas but we we actually don't have the money at all so it's not something that we can do at the moment but i can get you the exact figures i'm sorry i mentioned that before the meetings we did a piece of work around it last year thought there was a possibility there might be a bit of money this year we don't that isn't even a consideration but i can i can send the figures to i'm sorry i should have them to hand and and just to follow up how successful is that because i gather from people i know whose children have had the floral varnishing that they that they think it's been very successful it is statistics yeah i mean it does i don't know the exact it is considered to be the information i have is on cost effectiveness and it's considered to be very cost effective in terms of if you have put fluid varnish on children's teeth they're much much more likely much less likely to need to have um any kind of dental procedures which obviously cost more money um of course that's saving to the nhs and the floor advantage thing if we're delivering it is a cost to us so it's a bit about the lack of join up in the system but um so it is an effective intervention as is high quality supervised tooth brushing which is actually considered to be more cost effective and is the intervention that will be has been selected and has the advantage of also promoting good oral health throughout life um as well it's about getting the fluoride onto the children's teeth and both do that supervised tooth brushing also increase improves oral hygiene and affects that habit throughout life and is an opportunity to give other oral health promotion and healthy weight messaging because they go hand in hand it does seem i was going to ask the same question as cornelius i think the report says how effective right but the varnishing is so it seems a shame that it is a shame yeah i'm not like we'd want to do it we want to do both i mean it is possible to access it but only children whose parents are able to access the dentist and take them to it so yeah it's um it's not that we don't want to deliver fluoride varnishing it's that we do not have the funding and every other ncl borough delivers it to some extent some have targeted programs some have have universal programs but every other and we are the only one not delivering it thank you um carrying on from that i thought i'd read something about the fluoride varnishing being free in nhs dentists it is and then that made me wonder how many um of people maybe specifically specifically children are registered at nhs dentists in barnet as opposed to to private ones so we think about an estimated 45 percent of children in barnet have had a reason nhs dentist appointment um and so it would be obviously some of those would be under three who won't receive the varnish some of those may have parents may have declined to have it or the child may have declined um not all just sometimes very young children just don't cooperate understandably um but we'd be hope that the majority of those children received the fluoride varnishing but i can't obviously be certain the numbers we don't have that mean we we don't know how many children are getting private dental appointments no i don't have that data i don't i don't know there will be some children having private dental appointments that number could be could be quite a lot higher than there is there will be some children receiving private dental treatment it's true so but yeah i don't know the number but we can assume that a large number of children are not receiving dental treatment from that um when we were doing the gp access report we noted that there was a decline in gps in in barnett i know we're talking about the decline in uh in in in children actually seeing dentists i wondered if there was a decline in the number of dentists as well as the decline in the number of dentists actually offering nhs appointments do we have that figure i can obtain it i think last minute there were some there was some kind of but i i need to check that it's old data so i can ask the dental committee for that information because they have registered dentists i'm sorry i don't have it to hand um just a follow-up question um talk about um paying attention to the five most deprived wards i just wonder if you can say what you're doing in those five most deprived so at the moment it's promoting a supervised tooth brushing program in early years in those wards um but the hope is that our comms program will also focus on those wards working with health ambassadors and potentially community groups to promote or health messaging as well because obviously we want to make it across the life course at least for children and as was stated earlier it's a good idea to focus on adults as well but also we want to um um we want to capture those children who are not in early years settings um and in fact when i say early year settings it's only nursery and preschools we're not working with child minders in this program so there are obviously children and child minders and children not in an early year setting so yeah it's a very difficult issue this but thank you very much for for what you've done but we obviously need to come back to some of this because it is you have shown a very concerning report thank you for doing that yeah any more questions from members and sarah has a hand up sarah has a hand up so um i don't think you can see but sarah has a hand up sorry would that be okay for me to come in it's like yeah can you i hope you can can you hear me okay yes okay i hope i'm not shouting i'm trying to speak loudly um yeah no thank you so much emma um it's a really important discussion just to feedback in terms of the postcode checker on the internet we do get feedback from people on our inquiry line that they have found quite often that that's not always accurate so it will say on there that a dentist is taking new nhs referrals but then when you phone up they're not actually taking them so we've had that experience a few times in terms of the travel side of it um i mean just to say as well i mean i suppose there's the national issue and then the local issue and it's quite difficult for us to impact on that national issue but you know i would i'll put the link in the chat i would really encourage people you know maybe constituents if they want to share their experiences with healthwatch barnet we do share that with healthwatch england regularly and it helps to build up a national picture they use that a lot in their campaigns um but yeah i mean i just really agree in terms of the uh the comm side of it obviously barnet council is very much doing what it can and i think maybe at the health and well-being board uh we could have a discussion i know there's lots of other pressures on the integrated care board but anything further that can be done in terms of communications and with adults as well i think given that it's quite limited at a local level what we can do about the budget issue that i think would be a great thing to focus on um yeah thank you for that sarah um and thank you emma for um thank you for this report i know there's a lot of work going into it and perhaps you can come back with some of the information that that you've been asked for when you you know when you can thank you thank you very much for having me next we're gonna take the next item as a cancer center update because we have a speaker who's um just before we move on to the next item can i just i know we requested the end of the last meeting can we really try and push not to have hybrid speakers because we can't do proper scrutiny when we can't hear them properly online we can't ask proper questions makes it really frustrating and also i would also say we get presentations that are the same as what's in the report we've all read the report we've all read our papers i think it would be more productive as a committee to have more time asking questions and to really have them here in person i know there's some occasions where they can't committee after committee we're having people online you can't do proper scrutiny like that sorry that's a bit of no disrespect to the people that joined online but it just that it does make it really difficult thank you i don't know the circumstances why the speaker could care but um sometimes it is that's the only way you can do it sure so i if i may i take responsibility i said to emma she could join remotely because i'm very conscious that my staff work all day and have families and so on so noted for the future thank you yeah we're going to take the item number 10 on the matt vernon uh update and you've probably seen from so just to welcome um speaker jesse mccain for the partnerships and engagement it says here in hs east england you've probably seen that this is about a strategic review of um this is the work of this center kind of um non-specialist surgical care and uh proposal to relocate to from to what for general and um obviously uh there are a certain number of patients who attend this service from ncl you've seen and a certain number 106 from barnard so obviously we have an interest they've set up a joint health scrutiny committee to look at this and i think there's an issue you know how much we are and how we sit on the committee how much we obviously want to be kept informed so perhaps uh the speaker could just briefly um the importance of this but you see patients and what are what's the best option for us be involved thank you very much and thank you for having me um i'm i'm i work for nxs england in the east of england um for the specialized commissioning team because in east of england we've actually delegated our specialized commissioning services to the icbs so i'm working on behalf of the icbs in east england as well and because this service crosses to three regions i'm also working on behalf of the nhs in london and the southeast and so it's a little bit complicated um but the main thing is actually why we need to make some changes and i'm hoping that that's come across in the paper i wasn't planning on going through the paper reference to your comment earlier if i had been i'm not out there um but um i think uh it what i would say is we have got to the stage now where we have to act um this has been reviewed numerous times over the previous years there's always been a reason why um a solution hasn't been found we need to resolve this we've gone that since this and the clinicians raised concerns we have the independent review we have gone through every permutation we can think of to try and work out what is the right solution for this big population across such a a large geography and and i think i'm now really keen that all those who are we've obviously worked quite closely with those with the larger population footprints we've undertaken engagement we had back in 2021 we had some north central london patient focus groups to try and see what the impact was on north central london and actually they generally speaking were quite positive about the proposals um was harder to engage when i say hard i don't mean it was more difficult for me to engage with the population a lot of them didn't associate mount vernon as their service so we're more reluctant to get involved and to commit the time but we we did have some people who did get very involved and i've got all the data in the paper there so you can see the number of patients that's impacted and what the kind of activity levels are um i will just say i just i did a bit of a comparison after submitting this paper on what it was like pre-covid 19 which i thought you might be interested in and there has been a slight reduction in the number of patients since then so there were 137 from barnet in 1920 the majority of reasons are are the same outpatient appointments radiotherapy and chemotherapy are the primary reasons people are traveling to mount vernon and and i think what we have seen since uh pre-covid times is a big shift in the proportion of um outpatient appointments that are conducted by telephone so prior to um uh covid it would have been about four percent uh it's now around 20 percent um it would have gone up higher during covid because obviously people weren't able to travel to the site and it's settled down um a little bit now and so uh we know that times are changing as well and our planning is taking account of that and obviously particularly with cancer services you need to there'll be a certain number of appointments that do need to be face to face and and some patients would prefer that that's all been factored into the modeling um so when we are talking about the new cancer service we're also looking at how we can make it easier for patients to receive treatment closer to where they live um so that would mean um is the local hospital doing all the chemotherapy it could be doing you know our patients going to mount vernon that could be having that chemotherapy so only the ones with the most complex needs need to travel um or the most specialist care or the clinical trials that have to be um carried out on the site and and also thinking about the things like um virtual appointments and whether we're making the right use of those um so that patients have that option and this development of a chemotherapy at home service which has proved really popular on the drugs it's being used for and patients have been able to go on holiday and receive their chemotherapies and address on holiday and carry on their treatment and so from a quality of life point of view that's been really really successful so what we need to do now is really go to public consultation on um our case for change and is this the right direction for this cancer center and as i say we have really struggled to find alternatives um in fact we go further we haven't been able to find any alternatives and so we are going to consult on it on a single option for the main relocation but with some um slight movements and a potential network radiotherapy unit in the north um so my reason for coming here really is first of all to let you know and make sure you've had the opportunity to review this before we get to the consultation stage um but also to ask you to have a think about how you like to be involved through that stage and Hertfordshire is doing all the legwork at the moment in terms of their local authority in establishing a joint committee there still needs to be a formal process to determine who's represented how many how is it proportionate how is that managed who chairs it that kind of thing and there'll be another meeting with um officers i think in the uh later in this month and there's just been a bit of change of personnel at Hertfordshire and Hertfordshire have about five and a half thousand patients just by way of um comparison so i think it's probably easy if i just take questions um to be honest and that's okay thank you for that yeah there is the three options in terms of our involvement in this in the future but uh before that there's other questions generally to speak i think emma hi i'm gonna contradict council actually apologies um as a resident and somebody that isn't probably as clever or understanding as a lot of people here i have no idea what this item really is about as somebody with disabilities doesn't read very well i and as somebody that would be logging on and watching this video i thought this is i do understand what you're saying like oh we've read the items but let's be honest the general public probably hasn't and i would really appreciate like a one-minute explanation and i i'm sorry if that annoys people so yeah apologies one minute it's going to be a big challenge but no i understand completely and so the issues um we're trying to address is some clinicians at the cancer center which is in northwood um came to us with some concerns about the sustainability of the service now the main problem there are crumbling buildings and all sorts of things like that that isn't the main problem the main problem is that there are no longer support services on the site like critical care so the cancer center is a standalone cancer center it's on a site owned by hillington hospitals but it's not the main hospital so it no longer has overnight facilities it no longer has any sort of theaters anesthetics they have to bring that all in from other hospitals if a patient becomes unwell while they're on the site they have to be transferred out so if you're having chemotherapy treatment for example on site and you become unwell and you are particularly if it's a heart condition or something like that you will be sent in an ambulance to whatford general hospital or hillington hospital and that means that there are a number of things like trials that the teams can't apply to do it means there are some treatments they can't do because they require the backup of having things like critical care on the site so hematology is a really good example because that used to be provided um at um at mount vernon because of the advances in hematology cancer treatment and the national service specifications now require critical care to be provided so all of the hematology so one of the blood cancer work has had to move from mount vernon and into lh now that means for patients and yes from here but also from places like stevenage and luton and central bedfordshire they are traveling into london for that treatment that they should be able to get more locally not necessarily their local hospital but at a cancer center for their population the mount vernon population is about two and a half million if you take out that cancer center because it can't provide the modern cancer care those patients have to travel into either into london or into cambridge or to oxford and and so it's just got to the stage now where the the we're at the tipping point with what services can be provided and and we need to make these changes now so moving it to a hospital site in still in its own building still not run by whatford hospital and we're hoping it'll be run by uclh that have that specialist cancer expertise and there'll be a link bridge to whatford hospital so that clinicians and patients can taken across lton patients when they need to so as a patient you're having your cancer treatment there's a cardiologist on hand there's critical care beds on hand there's if you have diabetes they consult with diabetes experts and so on which they just can't do at the moment and the future of cancer care suggests that we definitely need that yeah that's helpful more than a minute that was valuable no no not at all um just council bonds i am i i assume that provision of this new facility is going to be quite expensive do you do you have the money um short answer is no um i think i think it's safe to say that this time all projects are being reviewed and what we do have is uh permission to move to the next stage of public consultation we need to go through our own assurance process um which is what we're about to kick off with kent's wanting to sort of give you early early notice rather than coming to you at the point of consultation and we we are in the unusual position and that we have that support to go ahead to the next phase despite not having identified capital um we know that there is a review going on of the new program and one of the big capital schemes we've been told that we can carry on um which we're taking as good news and i think every time we've had conversations with national colleagues and others it's become really clear there isn't really an alternative um and so uh we need something we're going to need to spend some money um and uh if we don't uh we could actually end up spending a lot more for us for starters um so i think there's acceptance that this is a priority that's not the same as having the money it's still um another hurdle we'll have to cross and it could still pose a problem what it will do is give the consultants and the clinical staff some certainty that that there is agreement about the future direction that there is a plan and an intention and to move it to an acute site and we're hoping that that will give us some um recruitment and power and and other things as well and just make sure people are particularly on the site but also patients and others are confident that there is a future for the service thank you very much chair one thing that struck me about your report was how few patients from barnet and north london in general are going to mount vernon where do our patients go because we i'm quite sure we have a high level of cancer patients in barnet yes i don't have the statistics on where they go but i know that some of the patients go into uclh um from from this area from the north central london perhaps that's the main um i think i mean i can certainly get back to you with that i think because it crosses regions in terms of the data and who owns the data we haven't always been able to pull that together um unless we're asked for it and we can we can go make those requests and i have to say i was quite surprised as well because there are patient there are more patients from further away in other directions but i think it's to do with the location of other provisions so london is quite well served for cancer centers um so um and it's also to do with the referral hospital and the direction that they send patients in and uh northwick park and and other hospitals have got um quite good links and sort of middle sex hospitals have got quite good links in with some of the london hospitals so you will there'll be a couple of factors that will determine where you are referred um one of them will be your tumor site um so what type of cancer it is and where is that specialist place for that cancer and if there is a specialist place that's relatively close you you may well go and have all your treatment there mount vernon's a non-surgical center so you only go there for the um non-surgical treatments um and i think the other thing is really a consultant where the consultant pathways and some of them have joint appointments with other hospitals so for example hospitals in london but i can't get you that data i'm sure and the implications for the you know this small number of arm of patients i think you say that the travel is you know it's okay because they train lines etc to what other implications for traveling and getting to treatment and are you also interested in the chemotherapy at home that then is a patient as much as anyone else in terms of not having to travel yes so the chemotherapy at home um is run by the mount vernon team so they will assess all of their patients regardless of where they're from for their suitability and if they think a patient is suitable they will invite that patient participate on the trial some patients don't want to they're a bit off-putting or they might have a needle phobia or something they don't want to do that themselves they receive then all the training and that's some of that is at mount vernon and so they won't be um the chemotherapy at home trial it's all sort of backpack kind of um chemotherapy and sometimes it's the patient who's trained or sometimes it's their carer but they're not um put on that course of chemotherapy until they're the clinicians are satisfied that that's a safe option for them and there are some patients who don't go ahead with it who are through the training or start the training and some patients have longer training than others um but it's the the feedback from it has been really really successful um in terms of the travel times the modeling suggests that the average and sort of average from everyone that lives in north central london um to the current site is about 38 minutes that's probably a bit optimistic um modeling always is isn't it um and the new site would be 30 minutes um that's by car and that doesn't that's an average um and it's an average it was taken at nine o'clock on a tuesday morning before covid and that was when the modeling was done and train line wise is the patients that have told us it's it's good um we've had a number of patients i've spoken to are quite familiar with whatford as a site um and they they were quite positive about the public support links um a number of them would like the metropolitan line to be extended but i think that's beyond our gift i just wanted to ask if if training goes ahead would any of the other facilities that are there now providing service would that close so there are quite a few different services provided by different organizations on that site um so everything that's associated with the cancer center including the paul strickland scanner center would move um there is a private hospital that does theater which is actually where mount burnham do their brachiotherapy at the moment that would stay where it is although the plan is to have a brachiotherapy theater so that patients wouldn't need to be sent back to that hospital um there is a day hospital on the site which has outpatient appointments that's run by hillingdon that will stay um they are actually using the site to decant they're building a new hospital the hospital they are decanting services from the hillingdon site onto the mount vernon site to free up space and enable the works so actually there will be more in the short term more health services on the northwood site um and they have a long-term plan for it so would the patient get a choice so there wouldn't be cancer services on the northwood site so if you are a cancer patient that has been referred by your local hospital to the mount vernon cancer service whatever it's known as and you would be going to the site unless there was an outreach clinic or an outreach service at your local hospital and also then all the other facilities need to be there because if somebody is receiving treatment obviously they can't come on public transport they may not be able to go back on the public transport so then you say car park and stuff like that is that yes so car parking is very much on our radar and it's a conversation we're having with um west arts hospitals around um how we can make sure that our our patients um have the spaces that they need um west arts do have a relatively new multi-story car park which has hugely improved parking on that site um that's not to say that with the addition of a cancer center it could meet everybody uh it could serve everybody and they have a site plan for their site there are spaces on the site that there is potential to do something else obviously council needs to be involved and so on as well because there are targets around car parking and we feel very strongly that if you're um having cancer treatment you you're able to get to sites and and most people do travel by car and for some for quite a lot of patients they are encouraged to come by car not by transport because they uh immuno compromised condition that they're in that's jack rubati i suppose if you ask the average resident who happens to be a cancer patient if they'd like to travel to a facility a new facility that is closer to where they live with better transport links i suppose um the average response to the consultation would be quite positive um however i think one thing that wasn't quite clear from this contribution was whether there would be any impact on overall cancer cancer care capacity across from multiple integrated care boards that are that are impacted by the closure of this one facility that previously catered to 13 000 patients so i guess the simple question is are the shorter travel times offset by longer waiting lists i think i can help you with that one so um there are when we went around looking at all of the options closing the hospital um was um uh you're right there is not the capacity for all those patients in existing cancer centers we're not proposing to do that the closing the site we're basically lifting it up and putting it into a new building so the activity is exactly the same it will do exactly the same for exactly the same patient it does now minus or plus some changes some tweaks around the edges so for example some of the patients in brenton ealing which is quite far south of the patch there is actually a cancer center closer to them than the current mount verna site um and the suggestion is that those patients may prefer to use a local cancer center that's all been modeled and the capacity is there we've also modeled in growth um we we did some modeling on growth back in 2019 20 and we did growth for five years and 10 years and 30 and we've updated it and one of the things that we can see is that the prediction was pretty much spot on for where we are now so those first five years so that's given a level of confidence that we've built in enough capacity so the new cancer center will still treat that population of 13 000 patients um across all of those areas and we are looking at putting some additional services in where we need to so it will also mean that um will uh the hematology being an example if the patients from harfordshire and bedfordshire who are currently going into uclh for hematology go to the new cancer center and we put in additional beds an additional um space for those patients that helps uclh a little bit with some of um their space for their growth that they're expecting in in that area of london so we've worked really closely across the regions and the icbs to make sure that what we're doing is we're helping each other out um and we're not changing um we're not putting pressure on any system does that make sense uh i think we'll draw this to a close a bit um we've got this we've been asked to comment on our involvement to the pre-option committee one is to be involved in full joint committee uh taking necessary steps which probably i would suggest is not uh necessary option b to attend joint committee meetings and chess and party participating discussions affecting the barnum population but not undertaking a formal scrutiny role and c is not for test not take part of the joint committee but just receive form as part of the public consultation so i don't know what members i mean i would suggest we don't need to be on the full committee given the whole number of patients probably we might want to be kept in form should be any any views on b or c but whether we sit on this shooting committee or we just get information um any views yes after sergeant yes thank you very much i just want to know what officer time would be involved in the officer time in a us taking part in scrutiny committee for instance so i can answer as best i can i'm i'm speaking on behalf of health health organization speak on behalf of a local authority um but um harper are expecting or have provisionally um offered to undertake the support for the joint scrutiny committee so i think there is an assumption that as the largest um patient population for the cancer center they would chair the committee um and therefore support it um from an officer point of view um we have had one officer meeting and planning to have another one so it would be occasional meetings just to make sure that we're keeping all the committees as informed as they'd like to be particularly for the committees who aren't so involved i don't think for a committee that chose a lesser level of involvement there would be a significant officer involvement i think the officer involvement is really going to come down to hopfordshire and hillingdon probably is the two most invested um are people happy with the third option that we um you know we don't actually take part of the committee but we will receive the football off of formal communication and get and get full information are people happy with that yeah do i see you're not happy i think given the general unity if people are agreeable we go with people are happy with that i mean yeah option b is you actually uh take part in discussions but you're not in a formal scrutiny role represented by option the others see is just information um sorry chap would it be would it be you that goes up um for the option b would it be you that attends the committee going sorry if we took up if we voted for option b and it really were to join the committees would it be a councillor or a member of the committee going or would it be officer time i'm just trying to i'll try and ask this i did speak to um uh the scrutiny officer at to hopfordshire earlier on today and i think the and these options are what the proposal is at the moment option b could change a little bit option c could change a little bit and i'm more than happy to come and update committee um anytime that you like um i think from um uh i think it would be for the for those sessions and they're going the idea is that they're themed sessions they might look at radiotherapy they might look at chemotherapy they might look at travel and access for example and those sessions it would be a member of the committee um i think there is a planning session that would be for an officer um obviously it's a public consultation so there'll be other opportunities um to get involved as well and as individuals as much as as committee um so so i would expect and the the there'll be a an invitation to um a site visit ahead of setting up the joint committee that will be we're just trying to find a date in october and there'll be go out to i think all the chairs and um vice chairs and officers um if somebody wanted to delegate it i don't think there's a problem with that okay so um i'm going to suggest we take option c but um but we will but we'll kept informed and we'll ask for speaking we'll ask for if we need to be further down the road is that agreeable to the committee okay uh that's we're going to recommend yeah okay um but should we have a formal vote to clarify the position i know what would be your objections well um i wouldn't want to just give it away everything that i would rather opt for option b um only because it affects the bionic patients so we we need to have not just an update but if there is something um that the scrutiny committee should be made aware of we need that pathway standard i wouldn't mind doing option b or option a but i would um i don't know because i don't know like the what this constituency is but i'd be happy to represent the committee if that's what's needed so apologies that's why i'm saying i don't want to do that so can i so my understanding is it's last year it was 106 patients from barnet out of the 12 000 that attempt so that's i think that's why i'd be more keen to say that option c would be fine only because it's such a small percentage of the overall patients i do still think we should have a say and i understand what you're saying but it's just very small of the patients but sorry you can disagree emma sorry i'm going to take a vote i'm going to take a vote on this it's probably the best way to resolve it um so uh those in frame should see they put their hands up um though it's a small number we need to keep the interest of our of the viral patients in the forefront get information sorry i was just saying to say perhaps we could all be the dates of the meeting and the theme of the meetings so that if anybody did want to go and attend they could and emma can always go attend or any of us can say anyone do you mean a member well a member of the committee a bit like attending the josque if we want to any of us are welcome to go so if we knew the dates that means we are kept informed and at some if there may be an occasion for us to attend a further meeting you know when the plans come near to fruition because although i think you leave it a bit hazy if we say any member of the committee will attend that that's it's a bit sort of halfway house so i would suggest that we go with option c for the most um i'm not suggesting sorry that we shouldn't go with option c but i was saying that if we could have the dates as the public are going to be invited as well if surely if we felt like going it would be nice to go question mark yeah i mean my my expectation is that these will be public meetings and there's no reason why we wouldn't circulate uh the dates for those meetings and i couldn't work with and make sure that i have no problem with that the public meetings and people want to go you know it's just the form of our formal position and we'll be doing a lot of workshops and other things and if anyone in an individual capacity would like to get involved we're always looking to hear from patients in the public we've done a huge amount of work early on throughout this so i'm i'm never going to turn away a patient or member of the public from from getting involved thank you very much for your contribution uh today thank you very much and hopefully we'll be kept informed thank you thank you for the questions they're really good questions okay um we're going on to we're going on to option eight now and uh thank you councilor law for your patience i think you're probably used to kind of uh not being the first in the line but yeah thank you um yeah helpful you could give us yeah it's gonna be helpful if i i know i've got a big voice but i know we've got people online so um on what's coming up and uh things that you're feeling to know about from the cabinet and the well-being board thank you thank you well i thought i would just focus on the development of the next joint health and well-being strategy um of course i'm happy to take questions on on other issues and then i've got one little issue at the end that i'll i'll pick up so i just want to set it in context obviously i'd like one of the starting points for the joint health and well-being strategy um is that it needs to be um founded in good data and so um the joint strategic needs analysis um has a new joint strategic needs analysis um was published during the summer there's a member training session next week actually um for so you're all able to get to grips with it and i hope you'll have a chance to listen into that and then get on the site and interrogate it yourself so it's a pivotal digital resource it's on a new platform um so it's um we hope is adding both depth as well as breadth to the data um it is it's obviously excuse me it's obviously really important um for public health but actually one of the uh one of the things that i was really keen to do was was also make it was a a strong data resource for services right the way across the council and i'll come back in a minute to to the the role they play in health so as i said depth as well as breadth so it's framed around the people place and planet um mantra and so that recognizes the very real role of a wider range of services and issues around wider determinants of health so i think that's a really important part of our mission around starting living and aging well but it's also the depth of data where it's been possible to take it down towards sub-ward levels um i think that's really important to look at our health inequalities because often our average figures across the borough will look quite um on a par with london uh or the wider england figures but actually there are pockets of deprivation there are pockets um of health inequalities across the borough and obviously one of our roles is to is to find those and start to work on how we can combat that it's a really important starting point for the joint health and well-being strategy i just wanted to remind everyone about the the joint health and well-being strategy it is the the document that sets the framework alongside its underlying action plans that supports the work of the health and well-being board and our partnership working with the nhs and that's developed significantly over the last several years because of that closer working um with the nhs um the previous current of health and well-being strategy uh runs from 2021 to 25 and i think if council stock were here actually at the meeting she would agree that of the development of that strategy through 2020 you know in the midst of covid lockdowns didn't it did limit the amount of collaborative and consultative work that um that could be done as part of that so we have an opportunity with this next strategy um to to do that um so we're in the final year of the current strategy um we've been delivered on the uh the actions um as part of that each health and well-being board generally that we won't in the september meeting but generally we take a deep dive at the beginning of the meeting for the first hour into key areas often and taking evidence both from council officers about strategic elements but also from nhs partners and voluntary sector partners and i just cite one example of that when we looked at heart health during the spring um we had both council officers talking about the strategy we had community health partners as well as key nhs partners talking about it we also had our health ambassadors talking about their work around and cud um cardiovascular disease but they're doing with key community groups where the prevalence is higher and it impacts on people's life expectancy and healthy life expectancy but we also had a clinician and for all three trust who was talking about the acute work that goes on and some of the very innovative projects that they're working on to keep people with heart problems at home and in the community rather than in acute hospitals so we try to bring all of that together as a package um so um what we're looking to do um as we go forward is to um we're looking to define the areas that we're going to focus on over the next four years um and obviously that's in the service of our mission around um helping people live longer healthier lives but actually also tackling inequalities and um we're also very keen to look at areas where we can best add value because there are a lot of partners in this space and we've got to look at those areas where we can best add value as part of that so our timetable for for doing that is that in may um we approved the joint strategic needs analysis at the health and well-being board and we um set the joint health and well-being strategy development timetable um from then until um until now it's been a question of developing the narrative on barnet based on the joint strategic needs analysis work because some of that was still a work in progress at that point um looking at desktop reviews around partner strategies so we're aligned and making sure we're adding value around those strategies not least the um the north central london icb health inequalities and population strategy no point in reinventing the wheel it's about adding value um and then looking at desktop reviews of resident engagement on health so we're drawing initially from from from some of those issues that come up um we also be looking at some of the work that the health the a hospice done as well conversation with key partners and then formalizing that input from the vcs and residents in in developing that initial draft um we'll take that at the september um health and well-being strategy at joint at the health and well-being board meeting um and then we'll go into phase during the autumn of co-production with partners um particularly working with the um the uh bonnet um enhs partners there'll be some co-production with residents um there will be co-production with internal office member stakeholders of which you are a chunky part and developing a draft document and looking at the equalities impact assessment and the health assessment so that we'll be bringing back a draft document to our january health and well-being board and then during the sprint this later winter and spring we'll be consulting formally on that document reviewing and amending that updating our our eqia and health impact assessment on the basis of that and then developing the implementation plans that sit below it and the kpis that will drive and measure that so that we know what we're doing but we also need to know that we've done it and so there's kpis those key performance indicators and in may 25 so next day um as we finish up on the 21 to 25 plan um we will publish and agree um the joint health well-being strategy and its plans and kpis for 25 to 29 places almost to 2030 um so as part of that timetable i expect and welcome input from you as a committee both in your member stakeholder role but actually also in that role of scrutinizing a challenge in the health and well-being board and so i am happy to take questions but it's a really important part of our our work around developing our health agenda and health and uh and tackling health inequalities and then finally one quick footnote at a previous meeting you were talking about um cancer diagnosis and um just wanted you to be aware um that is well you'll be aware as part of that that there is some degree of health inequalities across the borough there's um there is an equality of uptake with some of our communities particularly for routine testing like cervical breast and prostate cancer and we um have we're optimistic about getting a grant jointly with harangay um to work on uh ways to tackle that um lack of uptake in some communities and it'll be using our health ambassadors um and that's very much about looking at peer coaching and peer work um so that we get into those communities and understand why they're resistant why they're not taking up those opportunities and making sure that we give them those opportunities and encourage them to do so so happy to take any questions on that but looking forward to um another the next eight months or so of developing the next strategy doing that in partnership any questions on this or you know general wider health matters more than a question it's it's just about um is also mental health service that you've been looked at at the same time we in the current strategy there is a strand around mental health um it has it's clearly probably it's clearly an area that um that is of concern and we've got obviously the um our our um mental health trust is going through um has been going through changes but um they are at a point so the uh barner and harangay mental health trust is working very closely with and will become part of a single trust with um the camden and islington trust so um yes i hope we will we will have a strand that sits around that but that's subject to the working that we all do during the autumn in terms of developing that strategy but we've had a couple of quite meaty sessions um with the mental health trust actually or with mental health as an item on our agenda but yeah i i think post-clovid particularly but not only it's a really important area so i would look to be doing that yet yes i know they're coming up later um but i'm just wondering with the um i think it was did you say health champions um i'm wondering if that's something you do through health watch and how you're going about that and i always keep bringing up things like boost and things like that and getting the word out there because i'm finding that you'll bring up lots of interesting things so yeah two strands um our health champions are a broader group set up initially as kovid champions um during um during lockdown a number i know of people around the this committee and across member the member body have been uh part of that but it draws on members of the community um it uh have um lots of lots of briefings some online now some online meetings and and team working um but um and some of those individuals have gone on to be um trained as mental health champions as well so um they run sessions in libraries and listening sessions in libraries there's quite a lot of work there that's relatively low key but it's that's at a general level but it's very much about sharing information having discussions and helping people cascade that out to their resident or community group contacts health ambassadors are a rather more sophisticated they are there is some remuneration involved they are part of particular communities where we have challenges within engagement as well as access and they are they take on a much more proactive role within their communities and so we have an ambassador win within the Somali community who's been working very much with uh well on a whole range of issues within the community also within the Romanian community because there were very particular issues there but there are there are ambassadors in a number of communities and areas and healthy hearts program comes under thinks in that and those are run health champions is run through groundworks and the ambassadors program is is also is part run there as well so yes health watch does have a have a link into it but it's it's specifically through groundworks and and the principle really is actually so much of this is about confidence and behavior change and and helping people understand we've got a wonderfully diverse borough but people come with really different histories in terms of their knowledge and engagement with health services but some of our migrant communities health monitoring has been the last thing on their mind when they had existential um you know they've been in war-torn areas so it's about helping them understand the things that they can do to stay healthy and and have healthy as well as long lives but also childhood vaccination uptake is a key area at the moment because the the measles as well so it's it's right the way across the piece it's some of it's about healthier longer lives and some bits about children's vaccinations and health um yeah just following on that do you see um in terms of the strategy going forward for work on to do with ethnic minorities um for the black community we know about the um the instance of mental you know mental illness mental health just proportionate in some of these communities do you see that as a a a bigger area of work for the future i think we've got to be clear about the areas where we can make an impact and that's why i cited the healthy hearts project because cardiovascular disease clearly does have a disproportionate impact on some communities it ties in so to smoking to diabetes to um keeping fit and active and so there's a whole nest of issues um and levers we have to support people to get better half do a better heart health um but the same would be true to a great degree around um around mental health for example in particular communities so if it's underpinned by health inequalities and we we can see proactive levers i think it's that's really important about how we bring those partners together to do that but i also think there's the work with peers and this is really important because with all due respect sitting a set of us sitting around in the committee and telling people how they should all run their lives is a bit you know paternalistic it's about helping people to understand the benefits and supporting them in making those those changes and we have a lot of impact through fit and active barnet actually helping people to to stay fitter and tackling you know we know we have a childhood a problem with childhood obesity in burrow but actually there's also an issue around adult weight problems and weight control the other questions to most of them all emma did you want to open them and wind up and move on um i'm having to pick my question now i'm sorry um uh i say i i'm just gonna pull something from the josh i'm sorry if that's not appropriate but um there was something in there about short term contracts um and the fact that a lot of the contracts for health and social care and all the things like that through the council tend to be a year or two years and apologies if i got this wrong but you were a lot of your plans tend to be for four years till 2029 and i'm just wondering and i don't know if you can come back and answer this but how how do you envision envision that working when you have to constantly change contracts and providers and there's no actual consistency and way of managing that so yeah well i guess the point of the strategy is thinking how you want to play how you want to develop your action plan around key um key um aims um but yes i think there are some challenges around um around funding because quite a lot of what we do is grant funded within the public health grant or within other um funding streams and so there is a tendency to have to have contracts and renewals but building that in um as far as possible into a longer-term strategy means that we're thinking ahead um we're not just saying no it'll it'll end that you're thinking you're thinking ahead so for example the the grant that we're looking at for for the cancer um cancer diagnosis um cancer screening work is part of an ongoing program that we just some of it's opportunistic and this is this has come up but some of it is very much planned and you'll think ahead about contract renewals where you want to focus the next contract kind of some more uh in the absence of any further questions thanks very much for your update thank you and i'll look to talking to you as part of this journey on the health and well-being strategy just to say i think we've got to get an apology from council edwards family member who's not well the minute the joss minutes are in the agenda um there were two meetings in may to do with quality accounts uh which i believe council barnes accounts jack about to attend and after previous main meeting uh which was to do with mental health uh issues so they looked at mental health in depth there's a lot of information there about um well obviously there's the quality accounts input into that and then um the the one on the 18th of march which was fighting mental health groups to come and listen to the presentation of the icb so not just to note those minutes um i think the next item we're going on is to look at and agree the primary care the gp pass and finish me a report um which you should have been seen in the papers um and uh i just wanted to say i thought it read very well and there was you know was very impressive document in terms of the research that went into it and the the issues for the public the creases in demand and um the group obviously got to communicate changes changes in prime there you know to the public uh there's recommendation i gather council smearing smith and if you want to say a few words and maybe the other members i think council barnes i'm not sure council sergeant GP you know if any other members oh close probably you're all you're all right right okay so i don't think yeah on behalf of council stock i'm very pleased to have the opportunity to present this particular report and particularly want to thank all the members of the committee who are involved clearly we have council barnes council perman council sergeant well as obviously council stock herself and in particular the work tracy scollin has done to produce this excellent report on our behalf and we're extremely grateful there are three principal represent recommendations coming out of this report in terms of process which is set out in the beginning papers which i'm sure you're very familiar with and don't need me to address the main recommendations in this report are contained on page six one has to be absolutely honest we are not the nhs these are issues primarily that have to be addressed by the nhs they're not going to be dealt with by barnet we have made some specific recommendations that we'd like to suggest go forward which are about communication with the account with presidents generally barnet about the roots into the nhs and various services we talk about the funding to support uh the large and increasing population i had a particular problem charles accountant i tried to analyze the spreadsheets used by the nhs to allocate funding to try and work out how they calculate money for barnet it was an impossible task because they don't give you the really and they just put a batch of numbers down and it's impossible to track how they've done it not an impressive performance and i was unable to get much further with that but we do clearly need more into barnet because of the aging population which is not taken account of as i understand it we do need to work on communication between the primary and secondary sectors very important something that came up frequently on meetings with various surgeries people from the nhs and again telephony was an important factor which we gradually getting improved fundamentally the issue that came out loud and clear the desperate shortage of resources in the primary sector a lack of gps many hiring many of them going part-time just uh way beyond the current capacity of the system that's quite tough for us to address i say it's uh very impressive and a lot of a lot of data in the backup the recommendations i wonder if any other members committee would like to account to sergeant i'd like to tribute of the dire shortage of resources i think i ought to just put something in into the minds of the committee that one of the gps we were interviewing actually put his head in his hands that's how concerned he was and i know we say dire but i really was extremely concerned and i think you know i'd just like to reiterate what she said i think it's on its knees we're not the first people to say that it's on its knee um um tracy very has very well put some of the um the attempts that are being made in terms of providing additional resources in terms of other practitioners but it's not really going to be sufficient i think because we have this dire concern i mean the fact we've got fewer gps now i think that is the overriding concern i have there are fewer gps now than there were and we have an increasing population uh and i know the you know and i know people are desperately trying to find other ways to do it but however you you mix it it is still extremely concerning and i think it needs to be looking at what practices are doing to this pp putting his head in his hands when we were being when we were interviewing him would you like to agree with me well i can totally confirm what counselor sergeant was saying i think the fundamental problem though is that we're desperately short of medical school places in this country that is a problem that's going to take 15 20 years and so on and very little movement has taken place on this issue and frankly the whole trend of having more part-time gps gps is put greater pressure on the whole system i personally have a lot of experience with it because my ex-wife with the gp and then a consultant daughter is my son-in-law so i've seen this over the last 40 50 years and it's getting far worse i have no obvious solution um yes because you're clearly asking the itb to have a communications campaign to inform videos and leaflets to inform patients about changes to the system that doesn't necessarily help them create more gps but public information i assume the recommendations funding which part of this is to take account of the elderly the aging population in barnet increasing number of older people increasing number of people discharged so you're asking them to look again at funding no doubt they will cite one of the national funding issues but i i guess that's where it's coming from well that's too right chair because when you actually try and look at the numbers what you discover is what they've done with the numbers is they don't take the actual population of barn they show you pre-weighted numbers so they've already done some calculations you've no idea what those are you don't know to what extent they've taken account of the aging population we have and we certainly can't compare that with other places and trying to get that information seemed to be an impossible task i'd be happy to spend as much time as possible on it it just wasn't you know i love us have raised an issue about funding formula on it and so perhaps this will be a way in to engaging the icb on that whole discussion um uh is there anything else uh obviously this will go to i'm not saying this will go to the once we've agreed it yes we'll go to cabinet subject to approval on the 21st council stock will be presented to south can be there too but she's done a lot of work with this which is you know she's made important contributions to be able to help presented to cabinet right sarah did you want to be on this particular report please yeah i would like to yeah i know it's fantastic to see the report and uh really appreciate all the work that's gone into putting it together absolutely agree with the recommendations um i mean i suppose it's just a bit of an update um that um we are i don't know how many of you are aware of this we're doing can people hear me okay you can hear me we can hear you yeah good good good sorry my dog's barking really loudly in the background slightly disconcerting sorry about that um so yeah we're doing a piece of work with health watch and field across north central london looking at primary care access so we've been given a small amount of funding by the integrated care board and what we're doing is we're looking at gp websites so we're starting that work at the moment reviewing the gp websites in barnet we're going to do some mystery shopping work with phone lines and we're also going to be next year producing a guide to how to access your gp which is something health watch and field have done it's been very successful it's for the public uh we want to do the same in barnet so um that's what we're up to with that islington i don't apologies if people already aware but islington gp federation have got the contract until march they're doing quite a bit of work with gp surgeries particularly in barnet around access and we're working with them so for example the recommendation around the phone lines in the report that's very much something that isn't in gp federation though they're working in barnet as well very much something they're working on so just just to let people know about that i mean i agree i think with the work to rule as well that's happening at the moment with gps it's even more urgent that people are aware of different options in terms of accessing primary care and i would be very happy we're doing various comms around that if there's someone in barnet council comms department or something who would be good for us to link in with i'd be really happy to do that there are quite a few materials sort of national materials already available that we use for our social media and that kind of thing which are quite useful like informing people about allied health care professionals that type of stuff so just putting all that out there yep thank you sarah that's very helpful sounds like this report the right track as well in terms of what other people are doing um so uh sorry yes just before we wrap up because i i just want to say uh i think this was an example of a very good uh partnership between all the committee and i really would like to say not only did was did tracy do an excellent report but the committee where they be the task and finish group worked extremely well together and i and i just wanted to to say that note that and um this would go to cabinet hopefully they will um because we agreed it uh they will approve it and this would then go to icb you know put pressure on uh then go to icb for comment and we want to action and we want to follow we will follow up what their responses are to this uh in our work program just one thing um where sarah's mentioned that that is linton are doing research into varnish gps what why is that happening well i don't know i'm just a bit confused should we come back to the side note yes we'll have dealing with the report at the minute so yeah we'll pick that one up okay um is people happy to formally adopt this task and finish report um and uh send it to cabinet uh with our approval thank you very much to all those who worked on it um you made it a bit of a hard act to follow for the task the task and finish groups coming up um so the next item is the watch report which you've got in front of you and hopefully uh i know it's there if you want to make it so make a few comments obviously we've got the report but it's anything you want to mention that just deal with that point about that so emma's point about islington and uh you know a single out key work that you're doing thank you yeah sure so um yeah emma i understand your question can you all hear me well you you can hear me okay you can hear me okay good good sorry i think there's a slight blip and i couldn't hear you yeah emma i understand the question um basically what happened the integrated care board for north central london they did an invitation to tender it was open to anybody to apply and islington gpu federation i think it's accurate to say they they gave a really good bid and they are performing really well on it they were just the best provider that the integrated care board could find but they are working very closely we're meeting them with them very regularly about barnet they're working closely very closely with gp surgeries and barnet so and it's actually barn it's a particular focus for them so it's not we're not i wouldn't say that we're getting short changed in any way but we also need to be aware their funding goes on until march after that they will be moving on it's just the nature you know we've been talking about uh these projects but yeah that's i don't know if that helps but that's the um that's that's the deal with that i'm gonna so i have prepared a presentation um oh sorry i'm just gonna we've actually we've got the report um okay you can keep it short just i will yeah sure so what are you thinking like two or three minutes or yeah just a couple of minutes on if you want to pick out the key points sure yeah i'll i'll whiz through this um and i'll say briefly about uh some things we've done in the last six months as well um yes so in uh 2023 to 24 more than a thousand people shared their experiences of health and social care with us over 13 000 came to us for information and signposting most of them through our website um yeah i won't go into all of this this is stats about what we're doing um this is our community connectors project on blood pressure we did over 960 blood pressure checks uh particularly working with people in more deprived areas and we had lots of positive feedback in terms of people not knowing they had high blood pressure finding that out and planning to take key actions like 28 percent of the people with high blood pressure plan to do more exercise um it's all that's all in the report we've been doing lots of work around sharing the learning from that working with colleagues in the health and well-being board cardiovascular disease test and finish group to get the recommendations implemented um we visited uh four care homes and also the two primary care walk-in centers we've made recommendations about improvements that could be made vast majority have been accepted and are being implemented um yeah our healthy heart project i think you're all aware of um worked with over 900 residents in the last six months of last year and we've continued into a third year now so we're really delighted to be able to continue that work a lot of that is about supporting people with health inequalities to get help from their gp and we've got stats showing that it's effective and doing that um we're also doing policy work coming out of that around like access to interpreters with the royal free london and it's very much feeding into our primary care project um we're doing a piece of work very interested to hear about the health and well-being board potentially doing stuff for our cancer screening we've been doing a piece of research on that particularly with global majority residents this is in the last few months over the summer looking at barriers to people accessing screening so that is something we're working on now is the analysis of that um yeah we're good to the details but we've got lots of interesting findings and we have been doing other work around hospital discharge with yourselves with this committee and in other areas feeding into the health and well-being strategy and working with the care quality commission so that's just like a really quick um overview and this is what we've got coming up we're continuing our healthy heart project we've got a second wave of our community connectors work we've got funding for that we're going to be looking specifically at meal times in care homes we're doing a thematic report and i've already talked about the primary care work that we're doing as well so yeah that's the very very quick version of that presentation and you do have the annual report yeah thank you sarah you obviously work great you know you build partnerships with lots of groups in barner and that's very impressive particularly on you know high blood pressure it's kind of invisible problem in a way yeah i just wondered what what the learnings you have in terms of what's the most effective forms of communication you find with residents what you find works the best in the way that you approach them and try and communicate messages anything particular that you think works well yeah i mean broadly i mean i think i suppose there's two sides to it there's the online side of it and i think we do have to acknowledge of course not everybody can access the internet but most people do and most people do engage with social media so that is really important way to spread messages i mean i think images are really important they're simple messages links to information that's relevant for people you know all the standard things really plain english but i think really to reach out to these communities who are experiencing health inequalities face-to-face events are so important we managed to do 47 face-to-face events you know in partnership we collaborate with our partners in the last year we worked really closely like our healthy heart project we were really closely with the smiley center of excellence you know the barnet asian women's association and various grassroots groups and i think building up over time as well so now in the third year we're really starting to get with gp surgeries we're getting better connections with them and reaching harder to well less heard groups through that we're reaching the nepalis community and different nigerian community communities that we didn't have as many connections with over time we're building them up so i think you need both elements really online and face-to-face and to keep reiterating things you know and yeah listening to people's feedback really i i hope that gives a bit of a flavor um thank you thank you uh does members have anything they'd like to ask uh council barnes okay thank you very much um you mentioned care home meal times and i wondered what what the focus was what you're particularly looking at with those yeah absolutely so what we'll be doing we work closely with the care quality team barnet council care quality team and the cqc obviously our role we don't have the powers that the cc has so we need to try and focus on things like uh you know the environment um conditions that could maybe be improved and championing the best practice so we're planning to go into five or six care homes we're starting this quite soon and we're going to be um yet observing the meal time talking to staff about meal times talking to the residents and any relatives we uh try to publicize its relatives so that relatives can come and talk to us as well just getting people's feedback and i'm imagining based on what we've done before it potentially maybe things around disability sorry around um dementia friendly decor and dementia friendly like meal place settings and that kind of thing choice for residents residents having some understanding of the different options um you know even if they have advanced dementia there's ways of communicating that to them those those the types of things we think we'll be looking at and if we come across anything more serious we of course share that information with the care quality team and the cqc and they're following up on that we have done some reports which on our website last year but we want to have this specific focus because we feel we can have more of an impact by having that specific focus on an area like meal times and the cqc really support that they've said look we can't look in as much detail as we'd like to but it really affects people's day-to-day life you know their experience of meal time so um yeah that's that's the sort of gist of what we're looking to do there okay thank you very much emma um that uh joint funded project with emfield yeah is that focused on barnet residents as well yeah we we are focused on barnet um so what they've i don't know how much uh you know in terms of the icb figures but when you look at the um gp patient survey there are more people who are dissatisfied in barnet compared to the other north central and emperors in terms of gp access so the way we've split it up we basically are doing half of the project and we're just focused on barnet and field is looking at enfield but also camden islington and harringay but because there's a larger number in barnet that's why islington gp federation's very focused on barnet as well because there's more negative scores in terms of the gp patient survey yeah so so our work we collaborate with the others but our work on that is really focused on barnet yeah um just one other question but i don't know if it's for dawn really um so in terms of uh actually um letting uh residents and carers know about health watch yeah um so that they can report the issues that they're having and i know that health watch don't act as a advocate but it's not very well known i've only just found out about them myself yeah yeah i was wondering um i think council lately brought it up when we were having the royal free uh yearly review thing about the calendar of it and i was thinking about health which is kind of similar to um a process like powell's and what i notice is as a resident and somebody that receives services from the london borough barnet there isn't anything there to say that health watch exists and that's somewhere you can go so i was wondering if um health watch could be added to things in barnet at the end of correspondence and things like that yeah maybe i don't know barnet barnet council i'm just putting that out there it doesn't have to be barnet council website but i i can definitely be in touch with people about that yeah i've put something in the chat about that and we are i know i'm in touch with people at mencap because it'd be great to do some more joint publicity there because people can share their feedback with us their anonymous feedback we will signpost them we can't investigate their cases but we will record that feedback and we do use that you know really regularly in the work that we're doing so yeah i mean i don't know um i mean i've got a couple of contacts in um like barnet council comms people i could reach out to them and just see what would be appropriate in terms of that but we will yeah we can publicize the work of health watch yeah our publications and websites is a good point um um questions thank you very much sir for that input thank you um date on the uh that's the finish groups which is just tells you about where we are they where we are and several of them seem to be you know going to be approved by their own committees and then going to cabinet uh which is good and uh including uh home education that youth homelessness and uh the others that are ongoing work so there's a whole um it's a whole schedule of finish groups which is there's only the in terms of other items there is the cabinet there's the cabinet forward plan which is for someone um any comments on that and then we've got our own there's capital yeah to tell you come out including the task and finish group and then we've got our forward plan for the next few meetings um so i was thinking a suggestion that i have a themed meeting for the next item the next meeting because we've got the public health it's on the general public health plan and thought might be interesting to look at more in focus that um i mean obviously we cover other items that are that are important but we take a particular look some topic um i believe other committees that particularly on public health and inequalities which is um so well that's that and uh um next meeting let you know but uh but i don't know people get some good idea but i think you know more topics more topics in depth uh wouldn't be a bad thing for us and we learn more about particular issues can i just clarify i'm not anti-presentation i just think sometimes we often run out of time to ask questions and i just i think it's more important for us to ask questions i also think a brief report is helpful but sometimes they are just reading out things that we've we've already read um and just because we all in this committee ask a lot of questions that's all so it's a point where i made i learned that about the quality accounts all the time ago but you know we don't need to have massive presentations where we've already got the force you know but in terms of effectiveness
Transcript
what does that say two minutes past oh okay uh welcome to the committee members thanks for um attending tonight um i hope you had a good summer um which seems to be nearly over now um uh no meetings may be recorded and broadcast by people present as allowed for in law by the council by intending either personal online you may be picked up on recordings a council call is covered you know uh turn it off when you finish speaking um so we have so um minutes of the trip then the absences tonight Chakrabarti apologies from Councillor Chakrabarti for what lateness due to volunteer and working as a support worker at barnet main camp working with health watch volunteer at age uk barnet as well and i mention anything else as i remember it sorry um waters is um on online remotely are you there emma yes hello um hello i'm cancer cohen do you want me to just share my screen to begin the presentation sorry can you hear me yeah can you speak uh just speak up a little bit hi can you hear me now just keep talking sorry um um can you hear me now no uh i think now we need to just work on on the volume a bit uh can you hear us okay yes yes just to say i don't know if you can hear me well i can hear emma well from the video connection so i don't know if that helps identify anything okay emma it's not particularly good um i don't know whether you can speak up or turn your volume up in any way um you talk to us and we can tell um can you can you hear me at all can you hear me a little bit yeah we can hear you a little bit oh right sorry i didn't realize i thought you couldn't hear me at all can you i mean i'm speaking quite loudly now i don't know if it's um online i don't know is that okay can you hear me now um yeah i think we'll have to go with with that and we'll all be incredibly quiet as well i'm sorry um so uh i assume you've got a a brief um presentation yeah let me just show um yeah let me just show my share my screen okay oh sorry don't see that i don't know why my presentation's gone i'm sorry okay so hello everyone my name's emma waters i'm a public health consultant in barnet and i cover children and young people um i've been asked to come here today to um present on updates on our oral health action plan and working groups and general oral health in barnet if you really can't hear me um please sort of raise your hands and i'll stop um so thank you for having me um so oral health as i i as i said in the report and i'm sure you're aware is a key marker of general health in children and tooth decay and poor oral health is preventable so an important you can't hear me she's got to check uh with the members can you come on here it must be very difficult can you hear me online is it my yeah i can hear you very clearly emma okay yeah you're very faint yeah perhaps we'll just try and see if we can do that if you just hold on a minute okay thank you yeah if you could just speak and we'll just see if we can do it through through the through a laptop oh i'm really sorry thank you very much um hello i'll start again um just to introduce myself quickly my name is emma waters i'm a public health consultant in barnet speaking about all health in children today um so as i said in the report oral health is a key marker of general health in children and tooth decay is preventable so an important public health issue poor oral health can impact on children's ability to sleep eat and play and cause discomfort poor oral health represents a significant financial cost to the nhs and it's not evenly distributed within populations with significant health inequality the cause of this tooth became socially determined as social factors can influence dietary behaviors tooth brushing behaviors and potentially ability to access dental services therefore a whole systems approach is required to improve oral health with wide with system-wide partnership working um sorry my thing is now not working um so i presented some of this data today um the national detrimental epidemiology program um does regular surveys of different populations but every other year always surveys five-year-olds could have really key time to look at all health in children um so the last survey in 2022 had very wide confidence intervals because um there was not a good sample achieved um so it's difficult to compare the samples between um areas the barn in other areas and with the previous survey results however um what we can say is a significant number of children in barnet have um dental cavities um and also that our rate was higher than the england average which is the case for most of london concern um really um as we know it has such a significant impact on child health um and it's just to say here that poor health obviously has a similar etiology to to a healthy weight and in barnet healthy weight in children is also a significant problem but actually we're doing relatively well with healthy weight compared to um london and england as you would probably expect because barnet although it has obviously has significant deprivation is relatively affluent um so this shows that um all health um is an area of concern compared to other comparable health indicators so it is an area of significant concern in barnet um and also to say um we are working to improve the uptake of the survey and this year there was a much better uptake achieved so hopefully we'll get much better data from this the certain year that's just gone survey um so in 2022 as you know there was an oral health health needs assessment undertaken which was shared with you and presented at the time to you as well as a result of that a multi-agency oral health action plan was developed and an oral health partnership group was formed um and since the um development of the oral health action plan is being regularly um they've been regular it's the oral health act partnership group has met regularly to monitor the progress of the action plan um focus areas for the oral health partnership group include supervised tooth brushing schemes um supervised tooth brushing scheme have a good evidence base behind them and have been to be associated with significant reductions in the proportion of children having the k experience by the age of five and the icb is now funding a supervised tooth brushing scheme across ncl they will offer supervised tooth brushing in the five most deprived awards in barnet um to early years barnet public health alongside bells and family services are now supporting the icb to implement the ncl tooth brushing scheme with input put from the oral partnership or health partnership group um the next um area is the oral health promotion team in barnet which is funded from public health and delivered by witterton health um however we have very small amounts of funding for this and the oral health promotion team is effectively one oral health promoter who is then managed by the healthy rate manager with input also from um the um the wider um witterton health pro healthy child program um the oral health promotion team is as recommended by the health and need assessment focusing on health education of the workforce and has developed a health staff education plan um there is a need for further development of the staff education plan um specific training um for looked after children's teams and carers um and also um identification of oral health champions within the healthy child program and the early years workforce which is behind schedule um we're also focusing on oral health communications and material and materials we've developed um health promotion leaflets and education materials and we're looking into developing a more in-depth communication plan um as well as um working alongside um colleagues such as barnet health ambassadors um to promote oral health and communities more effectively um oral health pats consisting of age-appropriate toothpaste toothbrush and health information leaflets are now routinely delivered by the healthy child program at one year and two five-year reviews um we've also developed we've also um previously um delivered packs of all health packs in the base holiday scheme um and to migrant health teams along but um there've been some we haven't had funding to do that this year that was last year um but the oral health packs in the in the one and two point five year reviews are continuing um next steps um we're looking to support um regular health packs to migrants and we're looking into the feasibility of delivering all health packs in the base holiday schemes again because that was a very well evaluated and really very well received sorry um innovation um fluoride varnishing which is some recommended by the health needs assessment to consider whether we can provide it with additional funding we did look into it and obviously if we had the funding we'd very much like to provide fluoride varnishing um however um there was insufficient funding when we looked into the costs um so instead the focus is on supervised toothbrushing and further promotion of the free fluoride varnishing that families can receive through nhs dentists um dental access and registration um we've continued to promote we continue to try and promote the parents ability to access nhs in dentists through the find the dentist tool because there are nhs dentists environment accepting children and young people and we've got communications planned for mid-september um to promote this tool again and also to vote both among parents and um professionals looking after children so they can promote it to parents too um then the final thing is this whole systems approach to oral health and in barnet we recognize um the multifactorial causes of poor oral health and it's all health is considered within other public health programs and the oral health partnership group members which includes clinicians family services looked after children's nurses work to promote oral health across the system um we developed a making every contact count um module around oral health for children um finally we work to support the national dental epidemiology program as we said um and to improve the uptake of the survey for next year um so that's just a summary of the report i hope you could hear some of it i'll stop sharing my screen and ask um about any questions thank thank you uh Emma can you hear me i can hear you very clearly yeah good yeah we can see you um just on one point could you just say what fluoride varnishing is um yes so i'm not dentally trained i'm a medic um but my but so i have a very a lay person's understanding of fluoride varnishing um so literally a varnish of fluoride is applied to children's teeth but it takes very little time um it can be applied from the ages well i don't know if it can be applied younger it would be routinely be recommended to be applied from the age of three upwards every six months it's literally just putting it on the teeth and then allowing it to settle and then reapplying every six months thank you um thank you for the report i think it's very impressive um report setting up partnership group and setting and train training you know for the wider workforce and the tooth brushing pilots um i just want a couple of questions um what obviously the treatment you know went right down during the pandemic i mean kind of shocking you know really low levels and then it started to pick up um is that gonna um get back to pre-pandemic when we're going to get back to some pre-pandemic levels of treatment um you mean of sorry i didn't interrupt so yeah the second question just about access um uh about access of to dentists you know the problem of finding a dentist and if if you were getting more people registered would there be the dentist to actually uh cope with cope with that there are two questions for me and then i'll open it up to them yeah yeah no and they're both valid questions obviously thank you for them um so you're right there has been an increase on in but it's not gone up to the pre-pandemic levels but even the pre-pandemic levels were only just over 50 percent of children having i can't remember exactly how it's defined but relatively regular dental checks um so um obviously we want so we've gone up to i think about 45 percent when i looked at the figures um so that it was that's an estimate because i had to work the figures out myself i don't know exactly correct but i looked at the number of dental appointments in the population um so um so it's not quite at the pre-pandemic levels and the pre-pandemic levels weren't great we our aim is to increase that it's something we can measure so it's something we can look at success in and we're promoting that's why we're promoting um access to dentists i there is access to dentists in barnet there are dentists accepting children but i completely take the point that if old children access dentists and children barnet we don't know that there wouldn't there would be dental access and also there's a point that today there are dentists accepting children in barnet depending on family's resources they may or may not ever be able to travel to the dentists accepting the children so that's another issue um but we need to we are we work with the icb and we keep them informed on our work so if we see more children being accepted by dentists we hope that they'll be able to create more what more more they'll be able to meet that demand but yes it is it is an issue that we can at the moment we can promote it in the knowledge that there will be dentists accepting children but there might come a point where we have to consider whether we want to promote what what to do if people can't access dentists then promoting the dental services might not be might have to re-evaluate that and work with the icb who are the people who commission the dental services thank you um are there any questions uh council weekly and emma number j thank you i have a couple if that's okay thank you um the first question i just wanted to ask was about um dental care and neglect and safeguarding issues in the report it says that dental care professionals should receive regular safeguarding training i'm quite worried about the should there so could you answer what should mean and why it's not do receive safeguarding training okay no i think that's my mistake sorry and also just out of the programs we've run you might not have the figures but have many safeguarding incidents come up or any reports being made you know out of the programs okay council's been helping with thank you oh yeah so i don't think it should is the wrong word that's just me not writing in clear english i we've we repeatedly this is the local dental committee members who are on the um health promotion group and they are very confident that women that they are that the the dental professionals are getting regular safeguarding training because it's part of their registration they need it so although i can't tell you i don't have the figures they i've checked with them repeatedly and they've been very able to reassure me that that is the case um within the regular appointments dentist appointments they tell me actually very rare for them to see cases of neglect because the problem is that with dentists because you don't have to be registered dentist you don't have to take your child for regular dental checkups they only see the children whose parents are bringing them in so they think they're so they don't regularly see you are absolutely correct that within our supervised toothbrushing schemes and within the oral epidemiology the um the dental epidemiology surveys they are a wider breadth of children see as though parents can still choose to withdraw their consent i don't know how many safeguarding issues are picked up in those programs and i can look into it and get back to you because i think that's a really interesting point um again there's still an issue that parents need to consent to them but they're they're not slightly different so i think it's a really interesting question and i look into it thank you yeah i was more wondering when they're going to schools because i imagine if they're taking them to a dentist they're probably not neglecting their children because that wouldn't really make sense but it's more when they're going into school yeah schools are concerned more generally about dental or hygiene or dental neglect is that something they can report in for safeguarding and is it something schools are aware of as well actually i think it does come up in the training i'm assuming it would be reported through them through the mash like any other but i i can look into the route because i'm i'm not but i would assume it had to go through the mash but let me look into it sorry that's helpful thank you and then my second question sorry um i wanted to ask about looked after children i was a bit concerned actually about the disappointed about the 69 percent of our looked after children that have dental checks i think reading the report we're trying to encourage parents to ensure that children have good dental care and that they're getting dental checks i think obviously we're corporate parents we're looking after the looked after children for only 69 percent of them to have regular dental checks i think is actually really i can't think of a word that isn't too strong but it's really disappointing we can't we're not leading by a good example and i think it should be the priority over all the other programs because if if our looked after children aren't even accessing that care i think that's really bad it's not really a question yeah i need no no it's completely yeah agreed i need to talk to look we need to get new data on that and talk to looked after children nurses because we've been working with them since the health needs assessment around um dental access and they do do regular health reviews for all looked after children even the ones who are not within barnet they will they i mean i spoke to them recently they took to manchester to do a face-to-face of youth they are doing them that they are trying to make sure that parents that there's dental registration and gp registration um so i will ask them for more up to date figures i'm not saying they have improved but it's a good good point we need to see where we because we've been working with them but actually we haven't checked where they are with it chair could we ask that it's reported back to us about the looked after children because i know a few other members are also concerned about that figure and if we could have an update that would be brilliant thank you uh apart the actions dog oh sorry emma was better yeah brilliant question councilor waitley i also wondered emma is it worth just flagging this with somebody like tina mcgillan who's responsible for you know our look after children's service in the round and that's yeah um i think the reference to corporate yeah no i will i will raise it with her too because it's not all on the dental the the looked after children's nurses they coordinated but they need the um they need the carers and the to be supporting and working with them on this exactly because if children don't sorry can't i think it's we should be just exploring every avenue no no you're completely right yeah hi i'm following on from uh council like these questions um i mean this is a children and young people's or oral health action fan but i think um i'm wondering whether it needs to be sort of integrated into an adult one as well because it feels like there's a wider issue around the culture around brushing teeth then we're talking about um looked after children but then i think council like these points about how um identifying if people and children have safeguarding needs through teeth brushing and i think councilor stock brought up an idea of having in some boroughs there are i think it was uh uh mobile uh dentist bands and i feel like maybe that would help um potentially and then also the other question i had is that if there are dentists that are further away um is it within the budget for people to be provided funding to get to those dentists and would that information be made available to people um to let them know sorry emma yeah emma did you get the two questions okay um so around the um access to dentists and some kind of mobile van i don't know of any boroughs that actually have a mobile van but i i did hear council stop in that respect that was have mobile vans and and do the floor varnishing and while they're doing the floor advantage and they are looking in the mouth and then might um report concerns but i don't know of any actual dental checks which is slightly more in depth than the floor varnishing but maybe there are some boroughs doing it we as as we discussed we don't commission the nh the dental services they're commissioned by the icb and so i think we could raise it with them that maybe it's something that that could be looked into the icb are working on preventative measures why they fund the supervised tooth washing program and they've taken that money out of the nhs dental money to try and work on prevention as well um but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be putting forward other ideas too but i can't comment on the feasibility of that scheme and the costs of it um yeah because it's um it's um we i don't work in you know in nhs dental commissioning um but i do know that they are they are considering um prevention within the icb and they obviously also work with the dental public health consultants but at the moment the proportion of money spent on dental prevent on prevention and all the health promotion compared to the costs of dental costs is a fraction of it so if we could do something to to increase that amount and have more health promotion that would obviously be preferable um and your second question i'm really sorry i can't remember thatly specifically what your second question was i'm sorry adults oh the adults yes sorry um integrating i don't know if you have a adult or health care plan but i was thinking about um the culture and how um encouraging adults to you know it's essentially adults that need to take children to get their no you're right and so i was just wondering about integrating that into it um but also about um you were saying about um lots of dentists are available but they're outside of people's areas and so money to travel to those places is that something that and i know i'm asking a funding question and i'm aware of that yeah no no no no it's a reasonable question i mean i don't i'm not saying they are necessarily out of people's areas i'm saying that you might not have access to them but not all dentists are accepting nhs children onto their lists which would make me assume that people might their nearest dentists might not be accessible to them and they might have to travel further obviously in london it's less of an issue because distances are probably smaller than in a rural area but even so there might be that could affect access i don't have any information on exactly how that affects access if we know when i typed in postcodes to see there have been dentists accepting relatively near but they're a father certainly we don't have any funding for that i don't think the icb do but i can look into it i it's not as far as i'm aware there would be any funding but i can look into it if there is funding obviously it should be promoted um for children's dentists there's no right to choose then well there's a right to choose what's available i don't think it doesn't work in the same way as the right to use an appointment when you when you go but they're the right to choose the available of dentists but if they haven't got capacity and they're not accepting choosing to accept children's their list then you can't yeah you can just choose from the dentist that accepting children with regards to the oh sorry do you want me to carry on there was another part of the question about um adults do you want me to have you finished that there was just emma's final point was about integrating with adults which i think is a really good point we don't have any funding attached to add or health so that currently there isn't an adult or health action plan but i completely i think it's a really important point and thank you for raising it we should at least be looking at educating families when we when we send out our comms so that we that's the opportunity to support parents as well and hopefully improve their children's or health as well so i think it's a really good point and thank you i was going to ask about um the fluoride varnishing and you mentioned that we're not doing it at the moment because of the cost what what sort of cost is involved in that um i actually i did look this up and i don't have the figures to hand um i can um i can send them to you though it's i mean it's not per child it's relatively cheap but when you when you look at it on a council level i think it was it was if you were going to do even just targeted more deprived areas it would be more than our current or health promotion budget which is around um 60 000 pounds and that plays for our health promotion promoter and a bit of other um work um so we just we don't have any more money for it so we had hoped that we might be able to target the more deprived areas but we we actually don't have the money at all so it's not something that we can do at the moment but i can get you the exact figures i'm sorry i mentioned that before the meetings we did a piece of work around it last year thought there was a possibility there might be a bit of money this year we don't that isn't even a consideration but i can i can send the figures to i'm sorry i should have them to hand and and just to follow up how successful is that because i gather from people i know whose children have had the floral varnishing that they that they think it's been very successful it is statistics yeah i mean it does i don't know the exact it is considered to be the information i have is on cost effectiveness and it's considered to be very cost effective in terms of if you have put fluid varnish on children's teeth they're much much more likely much less likely to need to have um any kind of dental procedures which obviously cost more money um of course that's saving to the nhs and the floor advantage thing if we're delivering it is a cost to us so it's a bit about the lack of join up in the system but um so it is an effective intervention as is high quality supervised tooth brushing which is actually considered to be more cost effective and is the intervention that will be has been selected and has the advantage of also promoting good oral health throughout life um as well it's about getting the fluoride onto the children's teeth and both do that supervised tooth brushing also increase improves oral hygiene and affects that habit throughout life and is an opportunity to give other oral health promotion and healthy weight messaging because they go hand in hand it does seem i was going to ask the same question as cornelius i think the report says how effective right but the varnishing is so it seems a shame that it is a shame yeah i'm not like we'd want to do it we want to do both i mean it is possible to access it but only children whose parents are able to access the dentist and take them to it so yeah it's um it's not that we don't want to deliver fluoride varnishing it's that we do not have the funding and every other ncl borough delivers it to some extent some have targeted programs some have have universal programs but every other and we are the only one not delivering it thank you um carrying on from that i thought i'd read something about the fluoride varnishing being free in nhs dentists it is and then that made me wonder how many um of people maybe specifically specifically children are registered at nhs dentists in barnet as opposed to to private ones so we think about an estimated 45 percent of children in barnet have had a reason nhs dentist appointment um and so it would be obviously some of those would be under three who won't receive the varnish some of those may have parents may have declined to have it or the child may have declined um not all just sometimes very young children just don't cooperate understandably um but we'd be hope that the majority of those children received the fluoride varnishing but i can't obviously be certain the numbers we don't have that mean we we don't know how many children are getting private dental appointments no i don't have that data i don't i don't know there will be some children having private dental appointments that number could be could be quite a lot higher than there is there will be some children receiving private dental treatment it's true so but yeah i don't know the number but we can assume that a large number of children are not receiving dental treatment from that um when we were doing the gp access report we noted that there was a decline in gps in in barnett i know we're talking about the decline in uh in in in children actually seeing dentists i wondered if there was a decline in the number of dentists as well as the decline in the number of dentists actually offering nhs appointments do we have that figure i can obtain it i think last minute there were some there was some kind of but i i need to check that it's old data so i can ask the dental committee for that information because they have registered dentists i'm sorry i don't have it to hand um just a follow-up question um talk about um paying attention to the five most deprived wards i just wonder if you can say what you're doing in those five most deprived so at the moment it's promoting a supervised tooth brushing program in early years in those wards um but the hope is that our comms program will also focus on those wards working with health ambassadors and potentially community groups to promote or health messaging as well because obviously we want to make it across the life course at least for children and as was stated earlier it's a good idea to focus on adults as well but also we want to um um we want to capture those children who are not in early years settings um and in fact when i say early year settings it's only nursery and preschools we're not working with child minders in this program so there are obviously children and child minders and children not in an early year setting so yeah it's a very difficult issue this but thank you very much for for what you've done but we obviously need to come back to some of this because it is you have shown a very concerning report thank you for doing that yeah any more questions from members and sarah has a hand up sarah has a hand up so um i don't think you can see but sarah has a hand up sorry would that be okay for me to come in it's like yeah can you i hope you can can you hear me okay yes okay i hope i'm not shouting i'm trying to speak loudly um yeah no thank you so much emma um it's a really important discussion just to feedback in terms of the postcode checker on the internet we do get feedback from people on our inquiry line that they have found quite often that that's not always accurate so it will say on there that a dentist is taking new nhs referrals but then when you phone up they're not actually taking them so we've had that experience a few times in terms of the travel side of it um i mean just to say as well i mean i suppose there's the national issue and then the local issue and it's quite difficult for us to impact on that national issue but you know i would i'll put the link in the chat i would really encourage people you know maybe constituents if they want to share their experiences with healthwatch barnet we do share that with healthwatch england regularly and it helps to build up a national picture they use that a lot in their campaigns um but yeah i mean i just really agree in terms of the uh the comm side of it obviously barnet council is very much doing what it can and i think maybe at the health and well-being board uh we could have a discussion i know there's lots of other pressures on the integrated care board but anything further that can be done in terms of communications and with adults as well i think given that it's quite limited at a local level what we can do about the budget issue that i think would be a great thing to focus on um yeah thank you for that sarah um and thank you emma for um thank you for this report i know there's a lot of work going into it and perhaps you can come back with some of the information that that you've been asked for when you you know when you can thank you thank you very much for having me next we're gonna take the next item as a cancer center update because we have a speaker who's um just before we move on to the next item can i just i know we requested the end of the last meeting can we really try and push not to have hybrid speakers because we can't do proper scrutiny when we can't hear them properly online we can't ask proper questions makes it really frustrating and also i would also say we get presentations that are the same as what's in the report we've all read the report we've all read our papers i think it would be more productive as a committee to have more time asking questions and to really have them here in person i know there's some occasions where they can't committee after committee we're having people online you can't do proper scrutiny like that sorry that's a bit of no disrespect to the people that joined online but it just that it does make it really difficult thank you i don't know the circumstances why the speaker could care but um sometimes it is that's the only way you can do it sure so i if i may i take responsibility i said to emma she could join remotely because i'm very conscious that my staff work all day and have families and so on so noted for the future thank you yeah we're going to take the item number 10 on the matt vernon uh update and you've probably seen from so just to welcome um speaker jesse mccain for the partnerships and engagement it says here in hs east england you've probably seen that this is about a strategic review of um this is the work of this center kind of um non-specialist surgical care and uh proposal to relocate to from to what for general and um obviously uh there are a certain number of patients who attend this service from ncl you've seen and a certain number 106 from barnard so obviously we have an interest they've set up a joint health scrutiny committee to look at this and i think there's an issue you know how much we are and how we sit on the committee how much we obviously want to be kept informed so perhaps uh the speaker could just briefly um the importance of this but you see patients and what are what's the best option for us be involved thank you very much and thank you for having me um i'm i'm i work for nxs england in the east of england um for the specialized commissioning team because in east of england we've actually delegated our specialized commissioning services to the icbs so i'm working on behalf of the icbs in east england as well and because this service crosses to three regions i'm also working on behalf of the nhs in london and the southeast and so it's a little bit complicated um but the main thing is actually why we need to make some changes and i'm hoping that that's come across in the paper i wasn't planning on going through the paper reference to your comment earlier if i had been i'm not out there um but um i think uh it what i would say is we have got to the stage now where we have to act um this has been reviewed numerous times over the previous years there's always been a reason why um a solution hasn't been found we need to resolve this we've gone that since this and the clinicians raised concerns we have the independent review we have gone through every permutation we can think of to try and work out what is the right solution for this big population across such a a large geography and and i think i'm now really keen that all those who are we've obviously worked quite closely with those with the larger population footprints we've undertaken engagement we had back in 2021 we had some north central london patient focus groups to try and see what the impact was on north central london and actually they generally speaking were quite positive about the proposals um was harder to engage when i say hard i don't mean it was more difficult for me to engage with the population a lot of them didn't associate mount vernon as their service so we're more reluctant to get involved and to commit the time but we we did have some people who did get very involved and i've got all the data in the paper there so you can see the number of patients that's impacted and what the kind of activity levels are um i will just say i just i did a bit of a comparison after submitting this paper on what it was like pre-covid 19 which i thought you might be interested in and there has been a slight reduction in the number of patients since then so there were 137 from barnet in 1920 the majority of reasons are are the same outpatient appointments radiotherapy and chemotherapy are the primary reasons people are traveling to mount vernon and and i think what we have seen since uh pre-covid times is a big shift in the proportion of um outpatient appointments that are conducted by telephone so prior to um uh covid it would have been about four percent uh it's now around 20 percent um it would have gone up higher during covid because obviously people weren't able to travel to the site and it's settled down um a little bit now and so uh we know that times are changing as well and our planning is taking account of that and obviously particularly with cancer services you need to there'll be a certain number of appointments that do need to be face to face and and some patients would prefer that that's all been factored into the modeling um so when we are talking about the new cancer service we're also looking at how we can make it easier for patients to receive treatment closer to where they live um so that would mean um is the local hospital doing all the chemotherapy it could be doing you know our patients going to mount vernon that could be having that chemotherapy so only the ones with the most complex needs need to travel um or the most specialist care or the clinical trials that have to be um carried out on the site and and also thinking about the things like um virtual appointments and whether we're making the right use of those um so that patients have that option and this development of a chemotherapy at home service which has proved really popular on the drugs it's being used for and patients have been able to go on holiday and receive their chemotherapies and address on holiday and carry on their treatment and so from a quality of life point of view that's been really really successful so what we need to do now is really go to public consultation on um our case for change and is this the right direction for this cancer center and as i say we have really struggled to find alternatives um in fact we go further we haven't been able to find any alternatives and so we are going to consult on it on a single option for the main relocation but with some um slight movements and a potential network radiotherapy unit in the north um so my reason for coming here really is first of all to let you know and make sure you've had the opportunity to review this before we get to the consultation stage um but also to ask you to have a think about how you like to be involved through that stage and Hertfordshire is doing all the legwork at the moment in terms of their local authority in establishing a joint committee there still needs to be a formal process to determine who's represented how many how is it proportionate how is that managed who chairs it that kind of thing and there'll be another meeting with um officers i think in the uh later in this month and there's just been a bit of change of personnel at Hertfordshire and Hertfordshire have about five and a half thousand patients just by way of um comparison so i think it's probably easy if i just take questions um to be honest and that's okay thank you for that yeah there is the three options in terms of our involvement in this in the future but uh before that there's other questions generally to speak i think emma hi i'm gonna contradict council actually apologies um as a resident and somebody that isn't probably as clever or understanding as a lot of people here i have no idea what this item really is about as somebody with disabilities doesn't read very well i and as somebody that would be logging on and watching this video i thought this is i do understand what you're saying like oh we've read the items but let's be honest the general public probably hasn't and i would really appreciate like a one-minute explanation and i i'm sorry if that annoys people so yeah apologies one minute it's going to be a big challenge but no i understand completely and so the issues um we're trying to address is some clinicians at the cancer center which is in northwood um came to us with some concerns about the sustainability of the service now the main problem there are crumbling buildings and all sorts of things like that that isn't the main problem the main problem is that there are no longer support services on the site like critical care so the cancer center is a standalone cancer center it's on a site owned by hillington hospitals but it's not the main hospital so it no longer has overnight facilities it no longer has any sort of theaters anesthetics they have to bring that all in from other hospitals if a patient becomes unwell while they're on the site they have to be transferred out so if you're having chemotherapy treatment for example on site and you become unwell and you are particularly if it's a heart condition or something like that you will be sent in an ambulance to whatford general hospital or hillington hospital and that means that there are a number of things like trials that the teams can't apply to do it means there are some treatments they can't do because they require the backup of having things like critical care on the site so hematology is a really good example because that used to be provided um at um at mount vernon because of the advances in hematology cancer treatment and the national service specifications now require critical care to be provided so all of the hematology so one of the blood cancer work has had to move from mount vernon and into lh now that means for patients and yes from here but also from places like stevenage and luton and central bedfordshire they are traveling into london for that treatment that they should be able to get more locally not necessarily their local hospital but at a cancer center for their population the mount vernon population is about two and a half million if you take out that cancer center because it can't provide the modern cancer care those patients have to travel into either into london or into cambridge or to oxford and and so it's just got to the stage now where the the we're at the tipping point with what services can be provided and and we need to make these changes now so moving it to a hospital site in still in its own building still not run by whatford hospital and we're hoping it'll be run by uclh that have that specialist cancer expertise and there'll be a link bridge to whatford hospital so that clinicians and patients can taken across lton patients when they need to so as a patient you're having your cancer treatment there's a cardiologist on hand there's critical care beds on hand there's if you have diabetes they consult with diabetes experts and so on which they just can't do at the moment and the future of cancer care suggests that we definitely need that yeah that's helpful more than a minute that was valuable no no not at all um just council bonds i am i i assume that provision of this new facility is going to be quite expensive do you do you have the money um short answer is no um i think i think it's safe to say that this time all projects are being reviewed and what we do have is uh permission to move to the next stage of public consultation we need to go through our own assurance process um which is what we're about to kick off with kent's wanting to sort of give you early early notice rather than coming to you at the point of consultation and we we are in the unusual position and that we have that support to go ahead to the next phase despite not having identified capital um we know that there is a review going on of the new program and one of the big capital schemes we've been told that we can carry on um which we're taking as good news and i think every time we've had conversations with national colleagues and others it's become really clear there isn't really an alternative um and so uh we need something we're going to need to spend some money um and uh if we don't uh we could actually end up spending a lot more for us for starters um so i think there's acceptance that this is a priority that's not the same as having the money it's still um another hurdle we'll have to cross and it could still pose a problem what it will do is give the consultants and the clinical staff some certainty that that there is agreement about the future direction that there is a plan and an intention and to move it to an acute site and we're hoping that that will give us some um recruitment and power and and other things as well and just make sure people are particularly on the site but also patients and others are confident that there is a future for the service thank you very much chair one thing that struck me about your report was how few patients from barnet and north london in general are going to mount vernon where do our patients go because we i'm quite sure we have a high level of cancer patients in barnet yes i don't have the statistics on where they go but i know that some of the patients go into uclh um from from this area from the north central london perhaps that's the main um i think i mean i can certainly get back to you with that i think because it crosses regions in terms of the data and who owns the data we haven't always been able to pull that together um unless we're asked for it and we can we can go make those requests and i have to say i was quite surprised as well because there are patient there are more patients from further away in other directions but i think it's to do with the location of other provisions so london is quite well served for cancer centers um so um and it's also to do with the referral hospital and the direction that they send patients in and uh northwick park and and other hospitals have got um quite good links and sort of middle sex hospitals have got quite good links in with some of the london hospitals so you will there'll be a couple of factors that will determine where you are referred um one of them will be your tumor site um so what type of cancer it is and where is that specialist place for that cancer and if there is a specialist place that's relatively close you you may well go and have all your treatment there mount vernon's a non-surgical center so you only go there for the um non-surgical treatments um and i think the other thing is really a consultant where the consultant pathways and some of them have joint appointments with other hospitals so for example hospitals in london but i can't get you that data i'm sure and the implications for the you know this small number of arm of patients i think you say that the travel is you know it's okay because they train lines etc to what other implications for traveling and getting to treatment and are you also interested in the chemotherapy at home that then is a patient as much as anyone else in terms of not having to travel yes so the chemotherapy at home um is run by the mount vernon team so they will assess all of their patients regardless of where they're from for their suitability and if they think a patient is suitable they will invite that patient participate on the trial some patients don't want to they're a bit off-putting or they might have a needle phobia or something they don't want to do that themselves they receive then all the training and that's some of that is at mount vernon and so they won't be um the chemotherapy at home trial it's all sort of backpack kind of um chemotherapy and sometimes it's the patient who's trained or sometimes it's their carer but they're not um put on that course of chemotherapy until they're the clinicians are satisfied that that's a safe option for them and there are some patients who don't go ahead with it who are through the training or start the training and some patients have longer training than others um but it's the the feedback from it has been really really successful um in terms of the travel times the modeling suggests that the average and sort of average from everyone that lives in north central london um to the current site is about 38 minutes that's probably a bit optimistic um modeling always is isn't it um and the new site would be 30 minutes um that's by car and that doesn't that's an average um and it's an average it was taken at nine o'clock on a tuesday morning before covid and that was when the modeling was done and train line wise is the patients that have told us it's it's good um we've had a number of patients i've spoken to are quite familiar with whatford as a site um and they they were quite positive about the public support links um a number of them would like the metropolitan line to be extended but i think that's beyond our gift i just wanted to ask if if training goes ahead would any of the other facilities that are there now providing service would that close so there are quite a few different services provided by different organizations on that site um so everything that's associated with the cancer center including the paul strickland scanner center would move um there is a private hospital that does theater which is actually where mount burnham do their brachiotherapy at the moment that would stay where it is although the plan is to have a brachiotherapy theater so that patients wouldn't need to be sent back to that hospital um there is a day hospital on the site which has outpatient appointments that's run by hillingdon that will stay um they are actually using the site to decant they're building a new hospital the hospital they are decanting services from the hillingdon site onto the mount vernon site to free up space and enable the works so actually there will be more in the short term more health services on the northwood site um and they have a long-term plan for it so would the patient get a choice so there wouldn't be cancer services on the northwood site so if you are a cancer patient that has been referred by your local hospital to the mount vernon cancer service whatever it's known as and you would be going to the site unless there was an outreach clinic or an outreach service at your local hospital and also then all the other facilities need to be there because if somebody is receiving treatment obviously they can't come on public transport they may not be able to go back on the public transport so then you say car park and stuff like that is that yes so car parking is very much on our radar and it's a conversation we're having with um west arts hospitals around um how we can make sure that our our patients um have the spaces that they need um west arts do have a relatively new multi-story car park which has hugely improved parking on that site um that's not to say that with the addition of a cancer center it could meet everybody uh it could serve everybody and they have a site plan for their site there are spaces on the site that there is potential to do something else obviously council needs to be involved and so on as well because there are targets around car parking and we feel very strongly that if you're um having cancer treatment you you're able to get to sites and and most people do travel by car and for some for quite a lot of patients they are encouraged to come by car not by transport because they uh immuno compromised condition that they're in that's jack rubati i suppose if you ask the average resident who happens to be a cancer patient if they'd like to travel to a facility a new facility that is closer to where they live with better transport links i suppose um the average response to the consultation would be quite positive um however i think one thing that wasn't quite clear from this contribution was whether there would be any impact on overall cancer cancer care capacity across from multiple integrated care boards that are that are impacted by the closure of this one facility that previously catered to 13 000 patients so i guess the simple question is are the shorter travel times offset by longer waiting lists i think i can help you with that one so um there are when we went around looking at all of the options closing the hospital um was um uh you're right there is not the capacity for all those patients in existing cancer centers we're not proposing to do that the closing the site we're basically lifting it up and putting it into a new building so the activity is exactly the same it will do exactly the same for exactly the same patient it does now minus or plus some changes some tweaks around the edges so for example some of the patients in brenton ealing which is quite far south of the patch there is actually a cancer center closer to them than the current mount verna site um and the suggestion is that those patients may prefer to use a local cancer center that's all been modeled and the capacity is there we've also modeled in growth um we we did some modeling on growth back in 2019 20 and we did growth for five years and 10 years and 30 and we've updated it and one of the things that we can see is that the prediction was pretty much spot on for where we are now so those first five years so that's given a level of confidence that we've built in enough capacity so the new cancer center will still treat that population of 13 000 patients um across all of those areas and we are looking at putting some additional services in where we need to so it will also mean that um will uh the hematology being an example if the patients from harfordshire and bedfordshire who are currently going into uclh for hematology go to the new cancer center and we put in additional beds an additional um space for those patients that helps uclh a little bit with some of um their space for their growth that they're expecting in in that area of london so we've worked really closely across the regions and the icbs to make sure that what we're doing is we're helping each other out um and we're not changing um we're not putting pressure on any system does that make sense uh i think we'll draw this to a close a bit um we've got this we've been asked to comment on our involvement to the pre-option committee one is to be involved in full joint committee uh taking necessary steps which probably i would suggest is not uh necessary option b to attend joint committee meetings and chess and party participating discussions affecting the barnum population but not undertaking a formal scrutiny role and c is not for test not take part of the joint committee but just receive form as part of the public consultation so i don't know what members i mean i would suggest we don't need to be on the full committee given the whole number of patients probably we might want to be kept in form should be any any views on b or c but whether we sit on this shooting committee or we just get information um any views yes after sergeant yes thank you very much i just want to know what officer time would be involved in the officer time in a us taking part in scrutiny committee for instance so i can answer as best i can i'm i'm speaking on behalf of health health organization speak on behalf of a local authority um but um harper are expecting or have provisionally um offered to undertake the support for the joint scrutiny committee so i think there is an assumption that as the largest um patient population for the cancer center they would chair the committee um and therefore support it um from an officer point of view um we have had one officer meeting and planning to have another one so it would be occasional meetings just to make sure that we're keeping all the committees as informed as they'd like to be particularly for the committees who aren't so involved i don't think for a committee that chose a lesser level of involvement there would be a significant officer involvement i think the officer involvement is really going to come down to hopfordshire and hillingdon probably is the two most invested um are people happy with the third option that we um you know we don't actually take part of the committee but we will receive the football off of formal communication and get and get full information are people happy with that yeah do i see you're not happy i think given the general unity if people are agreeable we go with people are happy with that i mean yeah option b is you actually uh take part in discussions but you're not in a formal scrutiny role represented by option the others see is just information um sorry chap would it be would it be you that goes up um for the option b would it be you that attends the committee going sorry if we took up if we voted for option b and it really were to join the committees would it be a councillor or a member of the committee going or would it be officer time i'm just trying to i'll try and ask this i did speak to um uh the scrutiny officer at to hopfordshire earlier on today and i think the and these options are what the proposal is at the moment option b could change a little bit option c could change a little bit and i'm more than happy to come and update committee um anytime that you like um i think from um uh i think it would be for the for those sessions and they're going the idea is that they're themed sessions they might look at radiotherapy they might look at chemotherapy they might look at travel and access for example and those sessions it would be a member of the committee um i think there is a planning session that would be for an officer um obviously it's a public consultation so there'll be other opportunities um to get involved as well and as individuals as much as as committee um so so i would expect and the the there'll be a an invitation to um a site visit ahead of setting up the joint committee that will be we're just trying to find a date in october and there'll be go out to i think all the chairs and um vice chairs and officers um if somebody wanted to delegate it i don't think there's a problem with that okay so um i'm going to suggest we take option c but um but we will but we'll kept informed and we'll ask for speaking we'll ask for if we need to be further down the road is that agreeable to the committee okay uh that's we're going to recommend yeah okay um but should we have a formal vote to clarify the position i know what would be your objections well um i wouldn't want to just give it away everything that i would rather opt for option b um only because it affects the bionic patients so we we need to have not just an update but if there is something um that the scrutiny committee should be made aware of we need that pathway standard i wouldn't mind doing option b or option a but i would um i don't know because i don't know like the what this constituency is but i'd be happy to represent the committee if that's what's needed so apologies that's why i'm saying i don't want to do that so can i so my understanding is it's last year it was 106 patients from barnet out of the 12 000 that attempt so that's i think that's why i'd be more keen to say that option c would be fine only because it's such a small percentage of the overall patients i do still think we should have a say and i understand what you're saying but it's just very small of the patients but sorry you can disagree emma sorry i'm going to take a vote i'm going to take a vote on this it's probably the best way to resolve it um so uh those in frame should see they put their hands up um though it's a small number we need to keep the interest of our of the viral patients in the forefront get information sorry i was just saying to say perhaps we could all be the dates of the meeting and the theme of the meetings so that if anybody did want to go and attend they could and emma can always go attend or any of us can say anyone do you mean a member well a member of the committee a bit like attending the josque if we want to any of us are welcome to go so if we knew the dates that means we are kept informed and at some if there may be an occasion for us to attend a further meeting you know when the plans come near to fruition because although i think you leave it a bit hazy if we say any member of the committee will attend that that's it's a bit sort of halfway house so i would suggest that we go with option c for the most um i'm not suggesting sorry that we shouldn't go with option c but i was saying that if we could have the dates as the public are going to be invited as well if surely if we felt like going it would be nice to go question mark yeah i mean my my expectation is that these will be public meetings and there's no reason why we wouldn't circulate uh the dates for those meetings and i couldn't work with and make sure that i have no problem with that the public meetings and people want to go you know it's just the form of our formal position and we'll be doing a lot of workshops and other things and if anyone in an individual capacity would like to get involved we're always looking to hear from patients in the public we've done a huge amount of work early on throughout this so i'm i'm never going to turn away a patient or member of the public from from getting involved thank you very much for your contribution uh today thank you very much and hopefully we'll be kept informed thank you thank you for the questions they're really good questions okay um we're going on to we're going on to option eight now and uh thank you councilor law for your patience i think you're probably used to kind of uh not being the first in the line but yeah thank you um yeah helpful you could give us yeah it's gonna be helpful if i i know i've got a big voice but i know we've got people online so um on what's coming up and uh things that you're feeling to know about from the cabinet and the well-being board thank you thank you well i thought i would just focus on the development of the next joint health and well-being strategy um of course i'm happy to take questions on on other issues and then i've got one little issue at the end that i'll i'll pick up so i just want to set it in context obviously i'd like one of the starting points for the joint health and well-being strategy um is that it needs to be um founded in good data and so um the joint strategic needs analysis um has a new joint strategic needs analysis um was published during the summer there's a member training session next week actually um for so you're all able to get to grips with it and i hope you'll have a chance to listen into that and then get on the site and interrogate it yourself so it's a pivotal digital resource it's on a new platform um so it's um we hope is adding both depth as well as breadth to the data um it is it's obviously excuse me it's obviously really important um for public health but actually one of the uh one of the things that i was really keen to do was was also make it was a a strong data resource for services right the way across the council and i'll come back in a minute to to the the role they play in health so as i said depth as well as breadth so it's framed around the people place and planet um mantra and so that recognizes the very real role of a wider range of services and issues around wider determinants of health so i think that's a really important part of our mission around starting living and aging well but it's also the depth of data where it's been possible to take it down towards sub-ward levels um i think that's really important to look at our health inequalities because often our average figures across the borough will look quite um on a par with london uh or the wider england figures but actually there are pockets of deprivation there are pockets um of health inequalities across the borough and obviously one of our roles is to is to find those and start to work on how we can combat that it's a really important starting point for the joint health and well-being strategy i just wanted to remind everyone about the the joint health and well-being strategy it is the the document that sets the framework alongside its underlying action plans that supports the work of the health and well-being board and our partnership working with the nhs and that's developed significantly over the last several years because of that closer working um with the nhs um the previous current of health and well-being strategy uh runs from 2021 to 25 and i think if council stock were here actually at the meeting she would agree that of the development of that strategy through 2020 you know in the midst of covid lockdowns didn't it did limit the amount of collaborative and consultative work that um that could be done as part of that so we have an opportunity with this next strategy um to to do that um so we're in the final year of the current strategy um we've been delivered on the uh the actions um as part of that each health and well-being board generally that we won't in the september meeting but generally we take a deep dive at the beginning of the meeting for the first hour into key areas often and taking evidence both from council officers about strategic elements but also from nhs partners and voluntary sector partners and i just cite one example of that when we looked at heart health during the spring um we had both council officers talking about the strategy we had community health partners as well as key nhs partners talking about it we also had our health ambassadors talking about their work around and cud um cardiovascular disease but they're doing with key community groups where the prevalence is higher and it impacts on people's life expectancy and healthy life expectancy but we also had a clinician and for all three trust who was talking about the acute work that goes on and some of the very innovative projects that they're working on to keep people with heart problems at home and in the community rather than in acute hospitals so we try to bring all of that together as a package um so um what we're looking to do um as we go forward is to um we're looking to define the areas that we're going to focus on over the next four years um and obviously that's in the service of our mission around um helping people live longer healthier lives but actually also tackling inequalities and um we're also very keen to look at areas where we can best add value because there are a lot of partners in this space and we've got to look at those areas where we can best add value as part of that so our timetable for for doing that is that in may um we approved the joint strategic needs analysis at the health and well-being board and we um set the joint health and well-being strategy development timetable um from then until um until now it's been a question of developing the narrative on barnet based on the joint strategic needs analysis work because some of that was still a work in progress at that point um looking at desktop reviews around partner strategies so we're aligned and making sure we're adding value around those strategies not least the um the north central london icb health inequalities and population strategy no point in reinventing the wheel it's about adding value um and then looking at desktop reviews of resident engagement on health so we're drawing initially from from from some of those issues that come up um we also be looking at some of the work that the health the a hospice done as well conversation with key partners and then formalizing that input from the vcs and residents in in developing that initial draft um we'll take that at the september um health and well-being strategy at joint at the health and well-being board meeting um and then we'll go into phase during the autumn of co-production with partners um particularly working with the um the uh bonnet um enhs partners there'll be some co-production with residents um there will be co-production with internal office member stakeholders of which you are a chunky part and developing a draft document and looking at the equalities impact assessment and the health assessment so that we'll be bringing back a draft document to our january health and well-being board and then during the sprint this later winter and spring we'll be consulting formally on that document reviewing and amending that updating our our eqia and health impact assessment on the basis of that and then developing the implementation plans that sit below it and the kpis that will drive and measure that so that we know what we're doing but we also need to know that we've done it and so there's kpis those key performance indicators and in may 25 so next day um as we finish up on the 21 to 25 plan um we will publish and agree um the joint health well-being strategy and its plans and kpis for 25 to 29 places almost to 2030 um so as part of that timetable i expect and welcome input from you as a committee both in your member stakeholder role but actually also in that role of scrutinizing a challenge in the health and well-being board and so i am happy to take questions but it's a really important part of our our work around developing our health agenda and health and uh and tackling health inequalities and then finally one quick footnote at a previous meeting you were talking about um cancer diagnosis and um just wanted you to be aware um that is well you'll be aware as part of that that there is some degree of health inequalities across the borough there's um there is an equality of uptake with some of our communities particularly for routine testing like cervical breast and prostate cancer and we um have we're optimistic about getting a grant jointly with harangay um to work on uh ways to tackle that um lack of uptake in some communities and it'll be using our health ambassadors um and that's very much about looking at peer coaching and peer work um so that we get into those communities and understand why they're resistant why they're not taking up those opportunities and making sure that we give them those opportunities and encourage them to do so so happy to take any questions on that but looking forward to um another the next eight months or so of developing the next strategy doing that in partnership any questions on this or you know general wider health matters more than a question it's it's just about um is also mental health service that you've been looked at at the same time we in the current strategy there is a strand around mental health um it has it's clearly probably it's clearly an area that um that is of concern and we've got obviously the um our our um mental health trust is going through um has been going through changes but um they are at a point so the uh barner and harangay mental health trust is working very closely with and will become part of a single trust with um the camden and islington trust so um yes i hope we will we will have a strand that sits around that but that's subject to the working that we all do during the autumn in terms of developing that strategy but we've had a couple of quite meaty sessions um with the mental health trust actually or with mental health as an item on our agenda but yeah i i think post-clovid particularly but not only it's a really important area so i would look to be doing that yet yes i know they're coming up later um but i'm just wondering with the um i think it was did you say health champions um i'm wondering if that's something you do through health watch and how you're going about that and i always keep bringing up things like boost and things like that and getting the word out there because i'm finding that you'll bring up lots of interesting things so yeah two strands um our health champions are a broader group set up initially as kovid champions um during um during lockdown a number i know of people around the this committee and across member the member body have been uh part of that but it draws on members of the community um it uh have um lots of lots of briefings some online now some online meetings and and team working um but um and some of those individuals have gone on to be um trained as mental health champions as well so um they run sessions in libraries and listening sessions in libraries there's quite a lot of work there that's relatively low key but it's that's at a general level but it's very much about sharing information having discussions and helping people cascade that out to their resident or community group contacts health ambassadors are a rather more sophisticated they are there is some remuneration involved they are part of particular communities where we have challenges within engagement as well as access and they are they take on a much more proactive role within their communities and so we have an ambassador win within the Somali community who's been working very much with uh well on a whole range of issues within the community also within the Romanian community because there were very particular issues there but there are there are ambassadors in a number of communities and areas and healthy hearts program comes under thinks in that and those are run health champions is run through groundworks and the ambassadors program is is also is part run there as well so yes health watch does have a have a link into it but it's it's specifically through groundworks and and the principle really is actually so much of this is about confidence and behavior change and and helping people understand we've got a wonderfully diverse borough but people come with really different histories in terms of their knowledge and engagement with health services but some of our migrant communities health monitoring has been the last thing on their mind when they had existential um you know they've been in war-torn areas so it's about helping them understand the things that they can do to stay healthy and and have healthy as well as long lives but also childhood vaccination uptake is a key area at the moment because the the measles as well so it's it's right the way across the piece it's some of it's about healthier longer lives and some bits about children's vaccinations and health um yeah just following on that do you see um in terms of the strategy going forward for work on to do with ethnic minorities um for the black community we know about the um the instance of mental you know mental illness mental health just proportionate in some of these communities do you see that as a a a bigger area of work for the future i think we've got to be clear about the areas where we can make an impact and that's why i cited the healthy hearts project because cardiovascular disease clearly does have a disproportionate impact on some communities it ties in so to smoking to diabetes to um keeping fit and active and so there's a whole nest of issues um and levers we have to support people to get better half do a better heart health um but the same would be true to a great degree around um around mental health for example in particular communities so if it's underpinned by health inequalities and we we can see proactive levers i think it's that's really important about how we bring those partners together to do that but i also think there's the work with peers and this is really important because with all due respect sitting a set of us sitting around in the committee and telling people how they should all run their lives is a bit you know paternalistic it's about helping people to understand the benefits and supporting them in making those those changes and we have a lot of impact through fit and active barnet actually helping people to to stay fitter and tackling you know we know we have a childhood a problem with childhood obesity in burrow but actually there's also an issue around adult weight problems and weight control the other questions to most of them all emma did you want to open them and wind up and move on um i'm having to pick my question now i'm sorry um uh i say i i'm just gonna pull something from the josh i'm sorry if that's not appropriate but um there was something in there about short term contracts um and the fact that a lot of the contracts for health and social care and all the things like that through the council tend to be a year or two years and apologies if i got this wrong but you were a lot of your plans tend to be for four years till 2029 and i'm just wondering and i don't know if you can come back and answer this but how how do you envision envision that working when you have to constantly change contracts and providers and there's no actual consistency and way of managing that so yeah well i guess the point of the strategy is thinking how you want to play how you want to develop your action plan around key um key um aims um but yes i think there are some challenges around um around funding because quite a lot of what we do is grant funded within the public health grant or within other um funding streams and so there is a tendency to have to have contracts and renewals but building that in um as far as possible into a longer-term strategy means that we're thinking ahead um we're not just saying no it'll it'll end that you're thinking you're thinking ahead so for example the the grant that we're looking at for for the cancer um cancer diagnosis um cancer screening work is part of an ongoing program that we just some of it's opportunistic and this is this has come up but some of it is very much planned and you'll think ahead about contract renewals where you want to focus the next contract kind of some more uh in the absence of any further questions thanks very much for your update thank you and i'll look to talking to you as part of this journey on the health and well-being strategy just to say i think we've got to get an apology from council edwards family member who's not well the minute the joss minutes are in the agenda um there were two meetings in may to do with quality accounts uh which i believe council barnes accounts jack about to attend and after previous main meeting uh which was to do with mental health uh issues so they looked at mental health in depth there's a lot of information there about um well obviously there's the quality accounts input into that and then um the the one on the 18th of march which was fighting mental health groups to come and listen to the presentation of the icb so not just to note those minutes um i think the next item we're going on is to look at and agree the primary care the gp pass and finish me a report um which you should have been seen in the papers um and uh i just wanted to say i thought it read very well and there was you know was very impressive document in terms of the research that went into it and the the issues for the public the creases in demand and um the group obviously got to communicate changes changes in prime there you know to the public uh there's recommendation i gather council smearing smith and if you want to say a few words and maybe the other members i think council barnes i'm not sure council sergeant GP you know if any other members oh close probably you're all you're all right right okay so i don't think yeah on behalf of council stock i'm very pleased to have the opportunity to present this particular report and particularly want to thank all the members of the committee who are involved clearly we have council barnes council perman council sergeant well as obviously council stock herself and in particular the work tracy scollin has done to produce this excellent report on our behalf and we're extremely grateful there are three principal represent recommendations coming out of this report in terms of process which is set out in the beginning papers which i'm sure you're very familiar with and don't need me to address the main recommendations in this report are contained on page six one has to be absolutely honest we are not the nhs these are issues primarily that have to be addressed by the nhs they're not going to be dealt with by barnet we have made some specific recommendations that we'd like to suggest go forward which are about communication with the account with presidents generally barnet about the roots into the nhs and various services we talk about the funding to support uh the large and increasing population i had a particular problem charles accountant i tried to analyze the spreadsheets used by the nhs to allocate funding to try and work out how they calculate money for barnet it was an impossible task because they don't give you the really and they just put a batch of numbers down and it's impossible to track how they've done it not an impressive performance and i was unable to get much further with that but we do clearly need more into barnet because of the aging population which is not taken account of as i understand it we do need to work on communication between the primary and secondary sectors very important something that came up frequently on meetings with various surgeries people from the nhs and again telephony was an important factor which we gradually getting improved fundamentally the issue that came out loud and clear the desperate shortage of resources in the primary sector a lack of gps many hiring many of them going part-time just uh way beyond the current capacity of the system that's quite tough for us to address i say it's uh very impressive and a lot of a lot of data in the backup the recommendations i wonder if any other members committee would like to account to sergeant i'd like to tribute of the dire shortage of resources i think i ought to just put something in into the minds of the committee that one of the gps we were interviewing actually put his head in his hands that's how concerned he was and i know we say dire but i really was extremely concerned and i think you know i'd just like to reiterate what she said i think it's on its knees we're not the first people to say that it's on its knee um um tracy very has very well put some of the um the attempts that are being made in terms of providing additional resources in terms of other practitioners but it's not really going to be sufficient i think because we have this dire concern i mean the fact we've got fewer gps now i think that is the overriding concern i have there are fewer gps now than there were and we have an increasing population uh and i know the you know and i know people are desperately trying to find other ways to do it but however you you mix it it is still extremely concerning and i think it needs to be looking at what practices are doing to this pp putting his head in his hands when we were being when we were interviewing him would you like to agree with me well i can totally confirm what counselor sergeant was saying i think the fundamental problem though is that we're desperately short of medical school places in this country that is a problem that's going to take 15 20 years and so on and very little movement has taken place on this issue and frankly the whole trend of having more part-time gps gps is put greater pressure on the whole system i personally have a lot of experience with it because my ex-wife with the gp and then a consultant daughter is my son-in-law so i've seen this over the last 40 50 years and it's getting far worse i have no obvious solution um yes because you're clearly asking the itb to have a communications campaign to inform videos and leaflets to inform patients about changes to the system that doesn't necessarily help them create more gps but public information i assume the recommendations funding which part of this is to take account of the elderly the aging population in barnet increasing number of older people increasing number of people discharged so you're asking them to look again at funding no doubt they will cite one of the national funding issues but i i guess that's where it's coming from well that's too right chair because when you actually try and look at the numbers what you discover is what they've done with the numbers is they don't take the actual population of barn they show you pre-weighted numbers so they've already done some calculations you've no idea what those are you don't know to what extent they've taken account of the aging population we have and we certainly can't compare that with other places and trying to get that information seemed to be an impossible task i'd be happy to spend as much time as possible on it it just wasn't you know i love us have raised an issue about funding formula on it and so perhaps this will be a way in to engaging the icb on that whole discussion um uh is there anything else uh obviously this will go to i'm not saying this will go to the once we've agreed it yes we'll go to cabinet subject to approval on the 21st council stock will be presented to south can be there too but she's done a lot of work with this which is you know she's made important contributions to be able to help presented to cabinet right sarah did you want to be on this particular report please yeah i would like to yeah i know it's fantastic to see the report and uh really appreciate all the work that's gone into putting it together absolutely agree with the recommendations um i mean i suppose it's just a bit of an update um that um we are i don't know how many of you are aware of this we're doing can people hear me okay you can hear me we can hear you yeah good good good sorry my dog's barking really loudly in the background slightly disconcerting sorry about that um so yeah we're doing a piece of work with health watch and field across north central london looking at primary care access so we've been given a small amount of funding by the integrated care board and what we're doing is we're looking at gp websites so we're starting that work at the moment reviewing the gp websites in barnet we're going to do some mystery shopping work with phone lines and we're also going to be next year producing a guide to how to access your gp which is something health watch and field have done it's been very successful it's for the public uh we want to do the same in barnet so um that's what we're up to with that islington i don't apologies if people already aware but islington gp federation have got the contract until march they're doing quite a bit of work with gp surgeries particularly in barnet around access and we're working with them so for example the recommendation around the phone lines in the report that's very much something that isn't in gp federation though they're working in barnet as well very much something they're working on so just just to let people know about that i mean i agree i think with the work to rule as well that's happening at the moment with gps it's even more urgent that people are aware of different options in terms of accessing primary care and i would be very happy we're doing various comms around that if there's someone in barnet council comms department or something who would be good for us to link in with i'd be really happy to do that there are quite a few materials sort of national materials already available that we use for our social media and that kind of thing which are quite useful like informing people about allied health care professionals that type of stuff so just putting all that out there yep thank you sarah that's very helpful sounds like this report the right track as well in terms of what other people are doing um so uh sorry yes just before we wrap up because i i just want to say uh i think this was an example of a very good uh partnership between all the committee and i really would like to say not only did was did tracy do an excellent report but the committee where they be the task and finish group worked extremely well together and i and i just wanted to to say that note that and um this would go to cabinet hopefully they will um because we agreed it uh they will approve it and this would then go to icb you know put pressure on uh then go to icb for comment and we want to action and we want to follow we will follow up what their responses are to this uh in our work program just one thing um where sarah's mentioned that that is linton are doing research into varnish gps what why is that happening well i don't know i'm just a bit confused should we come back to the side note yes we'll have dealing with the report at the minute so yeah we'll pick that one up okay um is people happy to formally adopt this task and finish report um and uh send it to cabinet uh with our approval thank you very much to all those who worked on it um you made it a bit of a hard act to follow for the task the task and finish groups coming up um so the next item is the watch report which you've got in front of you and hopefully uh i know it's there if you want to make it so make a few comments obviously we've got the report but it's anything you want to mention that just deal with that point about that so emma's point about islington and uh you know a single out key work that you're doing thank you yeah sure so um yeah emma i understand your question can you all hear me well you you can hear me okay you can hear me okay good good sorry i think there's a slight blip and i couldn't hear you yeah emma i understand the question um basically what happened the integrated care board for north central london they did an invitation to tender it was open to anybody to apply and islington gpu federation i think it's accurate to say they they gave a really good bid and they are performing really well on it they were just the best provider that the integrated care board could find but they are working very closely we're meeting them with them very regularly about barnet they're working closely very closely with gp surgeries and barnet so and it's actually barn it's a particular focus for them so it's not we're not i wouldn't say that we're getting short changed in any way but we also need to be aware their funding goes on until march after that they will be moving on it's just the nature you know we've been talking about uh these projects but yeah that's i don't know if that helps but that's the um that's that's the deal with that i'm gonna so i have prepared a presentation um oh sorry i'm just gonna we've actually we've got the report um okay you can keep it short just i will yeah sure so what are you thinking like two or three minutes or yeah just a couple of minutes on if you want to pick out the key points sure yeah i'll i'll whiz through this um and i'll say briefly about uh some things we've done in the last six months as well um yes so in uh 2023 to 24 more than a thousand people shared their experiences of health and social care with us over 13 000 came to us for information and signposting most of them through our website um yeah i won't go into all of this this is stats about what we're doing um this is our community connectors project on blood pressure we did over 960 blood pressure checks uh particularly working with people in more deprived areas and we had lots of positive feedback in terms of people not knowing they had high blood pressure finding that out and planning to take key actions like 28 percent of the people with high blood pressure plan to do more exercise um it's all that's all in the report we've been doing lots of work around sharing the learning from that working with colleagues in the health and well-being board cardiovascular disease test and finish group to get the recommendations implemented um we visited uh four care homes and also the two primary care walk-in centers we've made recommendations about improvements that could be made vast majority have been accepted and are being implemented um yeah our healthy heart project i think you're all aware of um worked with over 900 residents in the last six months of last year and we've continued into a third year now so we're really delighted to be able to continue that work a lot of that is about supporting people with health inequalities to get help from their gp and we've got stats showing that it's effective and doing that um we're also doing policy work coming out of that around like access to interpreters with the royal free london and it's very much feeding into our primary care project um we're doing a piece of work very interested to hear about the health and well-being board potentially doing stuff for our cancer screening we've been doing a piece of research on that particularly with global majority residents this is in the last few months over the summer looking at barriers to people accessing screening so that is something we're working on now is the analysis of that um yeah we're good to the details but we've got lots of interesting findings and we have been doing other work around hospital discharge with yourselves with this committee and in other areas feeding into the health and well-being strategy and working with the care quality commission so that's just like a really quick um overview and this is what we've got coming up we're continuing our healthy heart project we've got a second wave of our community connectors work we've got funding for that we're going to be looking specifically at meal times in care homes we're doing a thematic report and i've already talked about the primary care work that we're doing as well so yeah that's the very very quick version of that presentation and you do have the annual report yeah thank you sarah you obviously work great you know you build partnerships with lots of groups in barner and that's very impressive particularly on you know high blood pressure it's kind of invisible problem in a way yeah i just wondered what what the learnings you have in terms of what's the most effective forms of communication you find with residents what you find works the best in the way that you approach them and try and communicate messages anything particular that you think works well yeah i mean broadly i mean i think i suppose there's two sides to it there's the online side of it and i think we do have to acknowledge of course not everybody can access the internet but most people do and most people do engage with social media so that is really important way to spread messages i mean i think images are really important they're simple messages links to information that's relevant for people you know all the standard things really plain english but i think really to reach out to these communities who are experiencing health inequalities face-to-face events are so important we managed to do 47 face-to-face events you know in partnership we collaborate with our partners in the last year we worked really closely like our healthy heart project we were really closely with the smiley center of excellence you know the barnet asian women's association and various grassroots groups and i think building up over time as well so now in the third year we're really starting to get with gp surgeries we're getting better connections with them and reaching harder to well less heard groups through that we're reaching the nepalis community and different nigerian community communities that we didn't have as many connections with over time we're building them up so i think you need both elements really online and face-to-face and to keep reiterating things you know and yeah listening to people's feedback really i i hope that gives a bit of a flavor um thank you thank you uh does members have anything they'd like to ask uh council barnes okay thank you very much um you mentioned care home meal times and i wondered what what the focus was what you're particularly looking at with those yeah absolutely so what we'll be doing we work closely with the care quality team barnet council care quality team and the cqc obviously our role we don't have the powers that the cc has so we need to try and focus on things like uh you know the environment um conditions that could maybe be improved and championing the best practice so we're planning to go into five or six care homes we're starting this quite soon and we're going to be um yet observing the meal time talking to staff about meal times talking to the residents and any relatives we uh try to publicize its relatives so that relatives can come and talk to us as well just getting people's feedback and i'm imagining based on what we've done before it potentially maybe things around disability sorry around um dementia friendly decor and dementia friendly like meal place settings and that kind of thing choice for residents residents having some understanding of the different options um you know even if they have advanced dementia there's ways of communicating that to them those those the types of things we think we'll be looking at and if we come across anything more serious we of course share that information with the care quality team and the cqc and they're following up on that we have done some reports which on our website last year but we want to have this specific focus because we feel we can have more of an impact by having that specific focus on an area like meal times and the cqc really support that they've said look we can't look in as much detail as we'd like to but it really affects people's day-to-day life you know their experience of meal time so um yeah that's that's the sort of gist of what we're looking to do there okay thank you very much emma um that uh joint funded project with emfield yeah is that focused on barnet residents as well yeah we we are focused on barnet um so what they've i don't know how much uh you know in terms of the icb figures but when you look at the um gp patient survey there are more people who are dissatisfied in barnet compared to the other north central and emperors in terms of gp access so the way we've split it up we basically are doing half of the project and we're just focused on barnet and field is looking at enfield but also camden islington and harringay but because there's a larger number in barnet that's why islington gp federation's very focused on barnet as well because there's more negative scores in terms of the gp patient survey yeah so so our work we collaborate with the others but our work on that is really focused on barnet yeah um just one other question but i don't know if it's for dawn really um so in terms of uh actually um letting uh residents and carers know about health watch yeah um so that they can report the issues that they're having and i know that health watch don't act as a advocate but it's not very well known i've only just found out about them myself yeah yeah i was wondering um i think council lately brought it up when we were having the royal free uh yearly review thing about the calendar of it and i was thinking about health which is kind of similar to um a process like powell's and what i notice is as a resident and somebody that receives services from the london borough barnet there isn't anything there to say that health watch exists and that's somewhere you can go so i was wondering if um health watch could be added to things in barnet at the end of correspondence and things like that yeah maybe i don't know barnet barnet council i'm just putting that out there it doesn't have to be barnet council website but i i can definitely be in touch with people about that yeah i've put something in the chat about that and we are i know i'm in touch with people at mencap because it'd be great to do some more joint publicity there because people can share their feedback with us their anonymous feedback we will signpost them we can't investigate their cases but we will record that feedback and we do use that you know really regularly in the work that we're doing so yeah i mean i don't know um i mean i've got a couple of contacts in um like barnet council comms people i could reach out to them and just see what would be appropriate in terms of that but we will yeah we can publicize the work of health watch yeah our publications and websites is a good point um um questions thank you very much sir for that input thank you um date on the uh that's the finish groups which is just tells you about where we are they where we are and several of them seem to be you know going to be approved by their own committees and then going to cabinet uh which is good and uh including uh home education that youth homelessness and uh the others that are ongoing work so there's a whole um it's a whole schedule of finish groups which is there's only the in terms of other items there is the cabinet there's the cabinet forward plan which is for someone um any comments on that and then we've got our own there's capital yeah to tell you come out including the task and finish group and then we've got our forward plan for the next few meetings um so i was thinking a suggestion that i have a themed meeting for the next item the next meeting because we've got the public health it's on the general public health plan and thought might be interesting to look at more in focus that um i mean obviously we cover other items that are that are important but we take a particular look some topic um i believe other committees that particularly on public health and inequalities which is um so well that's that and uh um next meeting let you know but uh but i don't know people get some good idea but i think you know more topics more topics in depth uh wouldn't be a bad thing for us and we learn more about particular issues can i just clarify i'm not anti-presentation i just think sometimes we often run out of time to ask questions and i just i think it's more important for us to ask questions i also think a brief report is helpful but sometimes they are just reading out things that we've we've already read um and just because we all in this committee ask a lot of questions that's all so it's a point where i made i learned that about the quality accounts all the time ago but you know we don't need to have massive presentations where we've already got the force you know but in terms of effectiveness
Transcript
Summary
The committee discussed a report on children's oral health in Barnet. The committee was concerned that Barnet was the only borough in North Central London that did not provide a targeted fluoride varnishing programme for children, due to funding constraints. The committee requested data on how many children had been identified with safeguarding concerns from dental assessments or from the supervised toothbrushing scheme. There was disappointment that only 69% of Barnet's looked after children have had dental checks, which the Executive Director of Communities, Adults and Health agreed to raise with Tina McElligott, the Director of Children's Social Care. The committee also discussed whether there was any funding available to help people who have to travel to access NHS dentists, and asked the Integrated Care Board (ICB) to consider commissioning a mobile dental van, similar to some other boroughs.
The committee considered a report on the planned relocation of the Mount Vernon Cancer Centre. There was a short explanation for the public about the proposal, which involves the relocation of the cancer centre from Northwood to the Watford General Hospital site. This was prompted by concerns about the current site no longer being able to provide modern cancer care due to a lack of critical care facilities and the need to transfer patients to other hospitals if they become unwell. The committee discussed the costs of the proposed changes and how these would be funded, as well as the current challenges faced by Barnet residents accessing the service and the potential benefits in terms of shorter travelling times. The committee was reassured that the changes would not lead to a reduction in capacity or longer waiting lists. The committee agreed to Option C, which is To not participate in the joint committee but to receive formal communication as part of the public consultation along with local authorities with small patient flows to MVCC.
The committee also requested details on where Barnet cancer patients currently go for non-surgical treatment, as so few currently attend Mount Vernon.
Councillor Alison Moore provided an update from Cabinet. She described the development of a new joint health and wellbeing strategy for Barnet, which was informed by the recently published Joint Strategic Needs Assessment (JSNA).1 She listed the timetable for completing the strategy, which involves a period of co-production with residents and stakeholders throughout the autumn of 2024, formal consultation in the winter/spring of 2025 and then publication in May 2025. Cllr Moore also noted that the JSNA data had identified a health inequality with some communities having a lower uptake of routine cancer testing, including cervical, breast and prostate cancer. The council were therefore working in partnership with Haringey Council to bid for a grant to tackle this, which would involve training Health Ambassadors.2 The committee asked if mental health services were being considered as part of the new strategy, to which Cllr Moore confirmed that this was an area of concern that she hoped would be included, noting the current changes to the mental health trust in Barnet with the planned merger between the Barnet, Enfield and Haringey Mental Health Trust and the Camden and Islington Trust. The committee also enquired about how Health Champions are recruited and whether more work would focus on ethnic minorities with a higher prevalence of mental illness. Cllr Moore explained the difference between Health Champions and Health Ambassadors, noting that both are recruited via Groundworks. She also confirmed that work will be targeted in areas where the council can make the biggest difference, such as to tackle cardiovascular disease.
The committee then considered a report from the Primary Care (GP) Access Task and Finish Group, which had been set up to investigate resident concerns about access to GP services. Councillor Nick Mearing-Smith presented the report on behalf of Councillor Caroline Stock, the chair of the task and finish group. He summarised the main findings and recommendations from the report, which were:
- that the NHS should communicate better with residents about how to access services;
- that more funding should be made available to support Barnet's large and increasing population, taking into account the ageing population;
- that communication between primary and secondary care services needs to improve;
- that the telephony systems need to be improved;
- and that there was a desperate shortage of GPs, many of whom are choosing to work part-time.
Councillor Gill Sargeant added that, during a site visit, one GP had been so concerned that he put his head in his hands. She noted that there are now fewer GPs in Barnet than there were previously, despite an increasing population. Sarah Campbell, the Manager of Healthwatch Barnet, added that Healthwatch Barnet had received funding from the ICB to carry out some research into GP access in North Central London. This work includes a review of GP websites, mystery shopping of phone lines and plans to produce a guide on how to access GP services, similar to the guide already produced by Healthwatch Enfield.
Finally, the committee reviewed Healthwatch Barnet's annual report for 2023/24. The main areas of work highlighted in the report included:
- the Healthy Heart project which was now in its third year;
- enter and view visits to care homes, resulting in a number of recommendations to improve services;
- the Community Connectors project to provide blood pressure checks to residents;
- work to improve communication about hospital discharge following negative feedback from residents;
- and a new piece of research on resident experiences of cancer screening.
The committee praised the partnership work by Healthwatch Barnet and asked what their main learnings were in terms of effective communications with residents. Ms Campbell noted the importance of using social media, providing simple messages and links to clear information, but also emphasised that face-to-face events were vital to reach people in communities who are experiencing health inequalities. The committee was also interested in the upcoming work on care home mealtimes, to which Ms Campbell explained that Healthwatch Barnet works in partnership with the Care Quality Commission (CQC) to champion best practice. She also confirmed that the new primary care research project would include a focus on Barnet, in response to the findings of the GP Access Task and Finish Group.
The committee also enquired why the ICB had commissioned Healthwatch Enfield to do some research on GP access in Barnet. This was because the Islington GP Federation had applied for the funding and had been successful as they were the best provider, but Ms Campbell confirmed that they would be working closely with Healthwatch Barnet and that Barnet would be a specific focus of their research. The committee also suggested that Barnet Council should do more to raise awareness about Healthwatch Barnet and their role as an independent advocate for local residents.
The committee noted a schedule of all the ongoing and completed task and finish groups. The Chair confirmed that the next meeting of the committee would be themed on public health.
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The Joint Strategic Needs Assessment (JSNA) is a process that brings together a range of information to identify the current and future health and care needs of a local population. ↩
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Health Ambassadors are trained volunteers who work in their communities to share health promotion messages and encourage healthy lifestyles. ↩
Decisions to be made in this meeting
Attendees
- Alison Cornelius
- Alison Moore, Chair of the Health and Wellbeing Board & Portfolio Holder - Health & Wellbeing
- Caroline Stock
- Gill Sargeant
- Lucy Wakeley
- Matthew Perlberg
- Nick Mearing-Smith
- Paul Edwards- Portfolio Holder - Adult Social Care
- Philip Cohen
- Richard Barnes
- Rishikesh Chakraborty
- Emma Omijie
- Nila Patel
- Tracy Scollin
Documents
- Printed minutes 05th-Sep-2024 19.00 Adults and Health Overview and Scrutiny Sub-Committee minutes
- Agenda frontsheet 05th-Sep-2024 19.00 Adults and Health Overview and Scrutiny Sub-Committee agenda
- Printed minutes 18032024 1000 North Central London Joint Health Overview and Scrutiny Committee other
- Public reports pack 05th-Sep-2024 19.00 Adults and Health Overview and Scrutiny Sub-Committee reports pack
- Children and Young Peoples Oral Health Needs
- Appx A Cabinet Forward Plan Key Decisions Schedule 2024-2025 Cabinet other
- Printed minutes 15052024 1900 Adults and Health Overview and Scrutiny Sub-Committee other
- Printed minutes 30052024 1400 North Central London Joint Health Overview and Scrutiny Committee other
- AHOSC Oral Health Update Sept 2024 cleared JD other
- Appendix 1- CYP Oral Health Action Plan for Barnet -August 2024 update other
- Printed minutes 31052024 1000 North Central London Joint Health Overview and Scrutiny Committee 1 other
- HWB Annual Report 2023-24
- Mount Vernon_Barnet AHOSSC update August 2024 other
- Cabinet Forward Plan
- Update on Task and Finish Groups 05th-Sep-2024 19.00 Adults and Health Overview and Scrutiny Sub-C
- Primary Care GP Access Task and Finish Group 05th-Sep-2024 19.00 Adults and Health Overview and
- GP Access cover report
- GP Access Task and Finish Group final 007 AC FR CS TS other
- Task and Finish Group Updates
- Appendix A - Task and Finish Groups Progress Update
- Appendix B - Task and Finish Groups Narrative
- Forward Plan AHOSSC 2024
- AHOSSC Actions Log 05th-Sep-2024 19.00 Adults and Health Overview and Scrutiny Sub-Committee other
- HWB Forward Work Programme Sep 2024- May 2025 other
- Forward Plan 05th-Sep-2024 19.00 Adults and Health Overview and Scrutiny Sub-Committee other
- AdultsHealth OS Sub-Committee Actions Log August 2024 other