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Thanks, Chair. I'm Chair of the Penrys Pillow Mage Project and we are going to be doing an event which will be musical in Land of Cathedral and whether or not it'll tie in in any shape with the festival. I just think it would be better if I flagged up on doing it. Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO] Okay, let's go to minutes. Hi. Hi. Sure. Hi Katrina. So there's a problem with the sound. Can you hear me at the moment? I can hear you. I could hear when Helen Lo Jones is speaking, and I can hear now, but everything else, there is no sound coming through to me. It's all silent. That's because I didn't have my microphone on. [LAUGH] There you go. Terrible school boy error. It's all sorted then. Great, thanks. If we move on to the minutes from the last meeting, well, the previous meeting, 90 for March, can I seek approval that these are a correct record? Any objections? No, well, let's go on to the substantive item for today, which is a music strategy and Carliff Music City Festival update. And this item's got two elements. Look at the progress in implementing the music strategy. Screwing my work on the Carliff Music Festival, scheduled for this autumn. And to assist our security. Can I welcome Councillor Jen Burke, the cabinet member who's online. Ruth Kayford, who's the OM for creative industries and cultural development. John Day, who's the OM for tourism and investment. And welcoming Kieran Jones, who's the music officer for Carliff Council. Now, can we start with Jen? Have you got a statement, Jen? Thank you, Chair. I'm here to bring you an update on how we're progressing with work to support Carliff Music Sector. In particular, one of the Council's priority cultural workshops, the development and delivery of our Carliff Signature Music Event, the Carliff Music City Festival. The Council has had the ambition for some time to develop a unique homegrown international contemporary music event. And their aspiration is to create and grow an annual music festival that will showcase music and culture in our capital to the best of the world. Designing and offering our unique cultural infrastructure, city venues and public realm to showcase both local and international talent here in Carliff. As well as giving a well-needed boost to local economy and the city's cultural profile. Initiating, developing and implementing recommendations in the sound of loans, sorry, the sound of loans, the Music Strategy Report has enabled us to begin the later foundations for building a future for Carliff that has music at its heart. The evidence is clear that people want to live, study and invest in cities where there is a strong cultural offering. And honestly, the power of music in all its forms is a sure way to make sure that Carliff is a better place to live and visit. We are in the process of delivering a missing piece of Carliff musical infrastructure in the city, which is a 15,000-seat arena. As well as securing a future for St. David's Hall by working with AMG to protect the world-class auditorium, our classical program and in heart, it's contemporary offering with an academy offer, which is something we don't yet have in Wales. We're working with our many universities, cultural institutions and venues of development and projects. And that's highlights that to ensure these larger venues thrive and to create a talent pipeline to feed these venues and others. We have been proactive by undertaking significant work with our grassroots music venues, schools, youth organizations and musicians as we recognise that nurturing musical talent is the very lifeblood this city needs to firmly be expected to thrive. There's no doubt that we're in Trinity Times. This administration and our officers are committed to working with sector partners to deliver and develop one of the most progressive music festivals the UK has seen. This autumn, we will sow the seeds for what we expect to grow into the UK's most innovative music festivals underpinned by thought-thinking approach to music that pushes the boundaries of how we can experience it in our city and our lives. I believe officers now have a presentation on how work is progressing. Thanks, Jim, and Ruth and John, you've got a presentation from them. Oh, microphone, John. Get that every single time. It's catching. And the computers just started to, for some reason, rebuked. So, it's a perfect time. I have, yeah, can I plug in? Can you do interpretive dancing? We have prepared for that. I suppose just before I go through, I think one of the things that is important is we've brought Keiran in January this year. And really, the work that we've got here is an outline of what both Ruth and Keiran have achieved. I think over the past 12 months or so, so five months has appeared, Keiran's been in place. But I think this covers some of the activity, but only a broad range of what we've got. There's an awful lot of stuff that happens, which is simply officers speaking with the sector. Just to kind of oil the wheels of things that happen really in the music sector in Cardiff. I'd call it here if that helps. Are we able to just swap the laptops while we wait for that to reboot? I think we have to wait for that to reboot. Here you go. Let's find the test today. No, something's happening. Sorry, Chair. Okay, so we'll just do a little bit of an update in terms of the support we provide for the sector. The second bit I've said is we're establishing Cardiff Music City. So a lot of the work that we've done recently is about both proceeding the establishment of that music festival that we mentioned. And generally trying to get that brand in place for Cardiff being the music city itself. And by branding that's not necessarily just a logo. It's about what we do and what the sector does to support itself in Cardiff. I think the starting point going back is to establish the Cardiff Music Board. So that's been in place since 2019. So I've been running for a while. Perhaps bad timing in the way and then it was established at the height of the pandemic effectively. In some ways that was quite useful for us. It's there to represent an advocate for the music sector so it's not a board that's there with a budget to spend or it's not directly doing stuff. But it's a means of convening the key people within the sector to both influence what we do within the council and some of that being small things. And also influence other bigger things which could be funded from external bodies. The support is broadly focused on grassroots activity and it's not just venues as activity, albeit there are wider remits as well within it. And I'm not going to run through all of these things that the music board does, but it's broadly there to support the sector itself and tell us what we need to be doing it and influence other actors as part of that. So, you know, big examples of that would be things like how we've dealt with COVID grant funding as an example where we engaged to the board. One of the key requirements established by the board itself was to recruit the card of music officer. I was going to put a picture of Keiran in the presentation at least here today for us to see instead. And some of the practical examples, like I've mentioned pandemic support. I think what that enabled us to do really is to make sure we could speak with people who are the networks to make sure everyone is aware of what the support is available. Some basic things, stuff like parking issues. Again, the role of the board there is to make sure the right people are speaking to the right people in the council addressing these issues. Doesn't mean we can circumvent process, but it means the conversation can take place. Similarly, issues around planning, again, can't circumvent planning, but what it does mean is we've got representation. When planning applications come in and we've used the example there, flute and tankard, we're going to board members well versed in planning around sound issues. And they put in the planning objection, which ultimately influenced the planning approval for that, which made a requirement for interventions to take place prior to the development taking place. We've also led to doing projects like Live and Unlocked. So that's what we did in the summer of 2020, 2021, '22, two years of the date. The principle there is not only do we have businesses that would struggle in the city as a result of the pandemic, but actually influence things like their audience. Things like the performers themselves, who we wanted to support as an emerged from. And it was part of the celebration of the music sector in the city as well as it came out of the pandemic. And lastly, there are examples around how we've engaged with education with an council to influence what is an important part of the music sector. We've also provided quite a bit of support of venues. This is included in some support supporters in terms of their relocation. We've launched the grassroots venues fund. This is SPF funded provision and provides up to 10k for businesses to be able to access things which can invest in capital projects in their venue. And we got some support for Club of Abarq as well, and you can see there's two pictures here which outline the potential nucleobive of Abarq development. Through the shared prosperity fund, in addition to that fund, we've also supported a couple of projects which you think are quite important. Some are included in things like targeted training support for people which relates to music. And also we've got the site like project which is recruiting volunteers to support people actually to go and see gigs. I think it'd be remiss as well to also outline that the arena is a big part of the music agenda and Cardiff. And part of the challenge we've got is making sure that links in with the grassroots music sector. And that's one of the ways in which we use the music board. Brandoubtedly, this is plugging a gap for actual provision of facilities in Cardiff. I'm going to attract artists to Cardiff otherwise wouldn't be able to get to the city. And I've also put a quick image of the Royal Wedge College of Music and Drama, a redevelopment of the old library. Again, we're keen to support the development of infrastructure within the city. Six Music Festival, what was the croaked growth we had from colleagues in the BBC around the festival? So the BBC like music team said Cardiff and the Cardiff team was the best experience they'd had of working with the Six Music Festival. And it was great to work with them too. I'll play this video later on because it relates to the music festival and I made a mistake but it's slightly too early in the presentation. We've also undertaken quite a bit of wider work in terms of supporting grassroots music activity. And one of the examples of that is not in October last year, there's a delegation involved. Actually, it's part of the rugby World Cup where Wales are playing Fiji. But we also had sort of a session over there with quite a few sort of Cardiff based on Welsh acts. Ruth, did you want to outline a bit on that? Yeah, so Club either back worked with an equivalent club in Naughts called Stério Lax. So they took a programme of some of the best up and coming Welsh acts over there. So Sage Todd's wife sort of came through USW Creative Industries Faculty and Luke Garvey. So a favourite rapper from me that would now makes Cardiff his home was amazing. So there was 800 people who turned up for the gig and it was mostly French shoots there. Which is really good to see as well as how many Welsh fans went over as well. So it was quite a special gig and we were bringing some of the French fans over to play the festival this year as well. Yeah, and this was some of the kind of the promo that went out around that. So it was broadly supported by Cardiff Council as Welsh Government as part of it. I think quite important in terms of showcasing Cardiff. And it helps us establish a bit of a link with Naughts as well in terms of the creative sector. We've also done some other kind of pre-activity that we've kind of tuned in terms for the overall music festival. And this is including things like support for Meenas. Do you want to describe Meenas as work? Yeah, so sort of jumping on to looking at the design of the festival and some things that we're planning to make the Cardiff festival unique. I think we all know there's a lot of music festivals around the UK, around the world. When we were writing the application to Welsh Government, part of our theme was looking at who's pushing the boundaries of the music industry, music performance and music innovation. We want Cardiff and Wales to be seen internationally as a progressive, outward-looking city and nation. So we're looking at the best young talent that we can kind of nurture and involve in our projects. And Meenas is just such an exciting young artist, musician from Cardiff, as well as creating amazing music yourself. He sports about 20 other local whale-based artists, an artist further with production. We worked with him to create a 360-degree immersive event in one of our venues in Penn Art Frauds to host a programme. It felt quite bold, same-pushing the boundaries of the music industry, but what we find in is setting our challenge to artists. They're responding well. It's where we felt like, should we be seeing this as Cardiff just starting something off? It's really paying dividends today, isn't it? Yeah, look, and it's partly about, this is how we can support emerging things within the sector and the range of activities that take place. So it's everything from the performers themselves, being able to do things they otherwise wouldn't be able to do. But also those who work as technicians within the industry. So we go back to the original sound diplomacy work. I think it highlights the need for us to support, not just those who are performing, but those wider jobs which are part of the sector, which makes the sector, I think, thrive more in Cardiff as a result of that. But more fundamentally, it's providing different opportunities for people across the world, parts of the city. And this was broadly the waiting room project that Nina's delivered in, and the club VR venue on Panath Road. We're also held an event to celebrate six music broadcasting as, well, Hugh Stevens live show from Cardiff every week. And I think, again, this is about putting Cardiff on the map a little bit for us, and all these kind of small things add up to being something fairly substantial. I think Hugh Stevens massive add to the city, and it's great that he's involved in the work that we've been doing. And little gigs as well, it's not just about the gigs that we're doing in venues. These are the series of gigs that were held across schools in Cardiff. And I think this is somebody doing the Caterpillar on stage in Cardiff West, I think, following one of the events that took place. How many schools? I'd have to go back to look at how many schools. It's a really innovative program. So the new curriculum team and our education team and our music services are delivering incredible work. I've taken live acts into schools to let the children experience live music. Sometimes for the first time, because if you think a lot of rock and pop bands, you have to be 14 to go in. So I'm really good talented officers working in the music industry, working with it and supported by teachers. But that was literally a stage invasion in Cardiff West, and at the time we're having tweets back saying it's like bitling in Cardiff West and some of the other schools as well. So we've got more information we can send on it, but it's something we want to build on and to help nurture that talent pipeline. And these are just some of the pictures from the other events that took place over the past three or four months, so in the city. And we also introduced somebody called Ray Cooper, who wrote Do you want to describe Ray? So Ray Cooper is, you might know him, he's known as the father of rock and roll percussion. So he's John's percussionist, and he run handmade films for George Harrison. He's very close to the Beatles, played on Rolling Stones, album and so on. So we got in, we sort of heard about him through an artist friend that we knew. He was doing a project with George Harrison before he died in Ravi Shankar. So he's really interested in youth music and opportunities for young people to use music for social cohesion. We sent him all out documents, the application for the festival and the music strategy. Not expecting a reply, and he did reply and he wants to support us on our education working Cardiff. And also inspire the children to know about the careers they can have in music and what part it can play in social cohesion. So we took him to Wichita in this, and we took him through our college of music and drama. So a lot of the music service group came there and they had an advanced percussion group. So they were playing songs that he knew. He had never seen anything like it in his life. He was so impressed with what was happening in Cardiff and Wales. One of the tunes they played was Sid Duke by Stevie Wonder and he turned around the children and said, I know Stevie Wonder and I'll send him the link. So good stuff. And yeah, do you want to mention the sound of the city project as well, Ruth? Yeah, so as part of, I think what we haven't said yet, so we've got support to deliver an autumn music festival that we move on. That would be September the 27th until October the 20th. But we also had some money off Welsh Government and the council supported to do some build-up activity. Just to kind of put a, you know, it uses a bit of a catalyst on the music sector in Cardiff and to get the musicians and local people involved in that. We also done some open calls because we want to be as inclusive as possible for some musician residencies. And so we had quite, we were with T. Kirth, brilliant Wales music organization and put the call out to projects to respond to the sounds of the city. So we've had Nafamadi, I think he was picked as one of the up-and-coming young artists in Class of the week, a couple of years ago here. And Gemma Smith, Natalie Rowe and Eugene Keeper as well. So they all had a month to develop ideas and then we created opportunities during the major part of the festival for them to showcase the work that they produced. I think then just to jump into the Music City Festival itself, I'm kind of got a short video which we would have gone live a couple of months ago. Which will, yeah, I'm not going to run through all of this but this has given you an indication of kind of what we hope in the festival is going to be like when it's up and running at the end of this year. But I think, well, what do we want to achieve, right? The overall ambition with this is quite, well, very ambitious. You know, we're looking at substantial festivals we've had. You see it around the world, South by Southwest Edinburgh, but that's a 20 year timescale for kind of being at that kind of level. But overall what we want to do is create a period of time in Cardiff where people want to visit the city to take part in music events. And people want to perform in the city in relation to music events. So it's a really concentrated period of time in the city where stuff happens with music. And there's an economic development angle of it which is, you know, we want to attract people, stay in hotels, spend money in the city. And there's the cultural development of it as well which is about, you know, effectively creating the music city feeling in Cardiff during that period. So I'm not going to read out all of that slide, but this is some words put together by Duke Rogers, who's a guardian journalist who's working with as part of the project really to help promote what the Cardiff Music Festival or Music City Festival is going to do. What is it, practically speaking? I mean, it's a series event so over that period, outlined, but, you know, it brings in license soon to the established festivals within the city itself. We are going to have additional, you know, big concerts as part of it, including events and utility arena, wider fringe activity that'll take place around the festival, and things relate into education and talent development in there as well. So it'd be conferences that will take place during the day. In some, really, it's a, you know, it's a density of things that will happen in Cardiff over the period of the festival and the expectations if you live in the UK or beyond and you're interested in music then. It's the timing, you don't want to come to Cardiff, and broadly feels a little bit of a gap in our events diary as well. Part of the principle also relates to the fact that, you know, we want to create more of our home-grown events, so it's not about buying or bringing things in in the same way that, you know, the Six Nations drives a lot of our staying listers in the city. We want to create our own event, which is here to stay in Cardiff. And, you know, these are some of the venues which we'll expect to be taking place, taking part in it this year. You know, we'll expand on these venues as the venue or the festival grows. This was released just last week, which is the initial slice, sort of scheduling for it. There are other things that will be announced ahead of it. And soon as well, we'll shortly be announcing a lot of what they will be programming, albeit they have announced, obviously, the time and the tickets are there for people to buy now if you'd like to sign up. And I think recently we announced what is kind of our headline act, actually, as part of it, which is left field and orbital, or be playing in the utility arena. So this was part of the big acts we'll be building on as well as slicing soon through the festival. And that's broadly it. So yeah, happy to take any questions. Brilliant. Thank you very much, John and Ruth. We'll start questions on this side. So I'll start with Councillor Jackie Jones. Thank you very much for the presentation and the exciting times we're going to have in September, October, yay. Looking forward to that. I've got a question about pipeline. It looks like that's one of the main key features of it. And recently we've heard in the news about some down, well, some cut in provision in the Royal College of Music and Drama for the youth provision. And I just wonder if there's anything you can say about that and how it relates to not just the festival, but the music strategy in general. Thanks. Yeah, so sort of concerning news from the Royal College of Music and Drama because they are facing challenges and how to make some cuts, which they announced last week for their young music services. We work with the College quite closely, especially on talent development. So we're already putting meetings in place where we speak to them and bring our music service in to have the conversations to look where we can pick up some of the opportunities that we can deliver through our music services for the children. So that would be a similar offer to what the Royal West College currently offers, as well as the work that we do in any way. Looking at more contemporary and different sorts of music and taking those opportunities to young people, as well as we importantly want to protect the future of classical music. So young people are interested in different forms of music and different, so we want to expand that and give them the opportunities and the instruments and the forms they want to play. Can you give us some more information and email maybe? What that actually looks like? What kind of information that you're getting through? Since after we've had the meetings, we can look at like an action plan of what we can actually achieve realistically, would that be okay? We can pick it up as a request in the way forward anyway. Yeah. You're going to have to come off. Yeah. I had a question about the equality impact assessments because there isn't anything that we've got in our papers at all about it, and that speaks to youth as well as older. I have no idea about any of these acts that you mentioned at all. That's my age. That's just me. Not a clue. So that's why I say I'm sure it's going to be fantastic. Let's feel the range. Not a clue. Sorry, don't know it. I've heard of Bruce Springsteen, you know, Brian Adams and things, but no, not that. But just to say that going forward because you're developing it at the moment, we expect an equality impact assessment of what that looks like. That looks like as well. Please, thanks. A bit to that, right? I think, conscious, it's not a report that we present here today, but it is an important part of it. And, you know, there's, you know, a real need for us to be representative of Cardiff as part of it, I think, on all levels, that's important. There's a mix of genres that'll be important as part of it as well, but also, I think, as part of not just the festival, but our music city work. It's about how we can ensure that we've been inclusive around everything that's been done in terms of the pride and support of the sector. Yeah. Okay. Please. Excellent. Come on. Wonderful. So my first question is going to be on accessibility and sort of the embedded thinking that must have taken place already a little bit and asking to expand on that. You've given us a list of partners, obviously some of these venues will have very good infrastructure and skills and some may not in terms of accessibility. I don't just mean things, important things like wheelchair accessibility and suitable and safe toilet and changing facilities. But I mean Cardiff has committed to be a neurodividant friendly city. So things like quiet rooms, ensuring that the program itself is designed in such a way as to be easy and very readable rather than being overly arty, I suppose, as they're over designed, which can at times be a distraction from the content. So can you talk a little bit about the issues that you've identified in terms of accessibility and how you're either planning to address them or how you've already addressed them and around that sort of general topic if that's okay. Thank you very much. I think there's a range of issues will be problematic for venues, not least because some of them will be struggling financially and they need to make investment in their venue. So some of it is about the things you mentioned, it's, you know, the physical accessibility of the buildings. But we have provided the venues grant and they can also access our business grant, which we promote to the sector to invest in those things that make them more inclusive venues and that's written into the grand scheme themselves. You know, I think we could perhaps be more assertive about trying to push them out for our venues, but it's intended for that very purpose. So that makes the more sustainable venues in the long term as well. I think in programming, we're aware of the need for a range of activities to take place around the festival so it's not just going to be big gigs, there's going to be a range of different activities to take place around as well route so that will build into what will hopefully be a broader kind of more accessible program as well for the overall music festival. You're going to have to, yeah, that's fine. Try again. Wonderful. Thank you for that answer. And that is very helpful. My second question is on the sort of, I appreciate that we're at the start of this journey. But I'd like to know what are your current plans and thoughts about making this not just, not just a one off, but a foundation to build the future on what does this look like in two years, three years, four years. Is this something that we're looking to have as a regular recurring thing? What are your thoughts in terms of making this, as I said, a foundation for the future? So within our application, and we've always sort of stated that we want this to be an annual event. It's challenging times at the moment, so we run in this year as a pilot, you know, I think it would make sense to carry that forward to next year, if possible, if budgets allow it, because I think we all being well. If we make an impact this year, you know, we bring in existing annual festivals together, we wouldn't want to lose that impetus as well. So I think there's a job work of delivering something that gives confidence to every one of the investment and shows it achieving our ambition and what we want to do. I think we've always said, you know, we want this to grow into an event that everybody thinks of Cardiff and thinks of the Cardiff Music City Festival and thinks of the music scene, as we do when we think of Edinburgh and the Edinburgh Festival. Now, if you think that's been going over 75 years, I'm hoping it won't take us that long to gain the reputation, but looking at it, and we've studied and done a lot of research on this, I think even, you know, this year will make an impact. Three years, it'll be embedded into the scenes with, I think we've designed something that is unique. We've always said, we want it to be, you wrote onto to South Post South Wales, but a bit of a challenge, but a bit of a healthy competition. We found out that South Post South Wales is actually doing a London show next year as well, so we're treating that as a positive because we make every effort to make the Cardiff Festival as successful as it needs to be. I think it's also fair to say that clearly it needs funding for subsequent years. It's being funded via the major events during the Welsh Government. And what that means is actually it's got to show that it's delivering as well, so it does have to show that it's having the economic impact. And that's part of the challenge for us really is making sure that we can show that enough people have been attracted, and enough people that are attracted over the border to make it an important part of the major event due to Canada as well. Could I just, sorry, do you see a red light? No, I was just going to add that it's a brand new brand, so the next couple of months will be focusing on presenting that and educating people around what the brand is, what the festival is. So that's something that we're taking on, and it's a brand new partnership as well, so we're working with a lot of good people. And those partnerships can easily hit the ground running and gaining momentum all the time. Brilliant. I just wanted to pick up a supplementary on Peter's question really about that funding. And obviously it comes from the major events unit in Welsh Government. Is that a one-off, one-year deal currently, or is that a sustainable? Obviously we don't know what Welsh Government plans are. Yeah, there was the conversations that we've been having, and you know, for a number of years somewhat with a Cardiff signature event. Looked like, you know, sort of we've been working on this since before the pandemic. The opportunity and the way the Welsh Government events with its funding works currently was we could put in a bid for this year to deliver it. We'd have to do the same for next year, if we could match the funding to go for next year or the year after. The ideal scenario would be multi-year funding, because I think one of the challenges, the way the music industry works, is, you know, you're programming two or three years in advance. So by the time you get the funding application in and get those decisions made, you know, and their political decisions as well, you know, you're missing those opportunities for those big acts. So I think if we want to be as ambitious as we need to be, you know, we need to look at how that multiple, you know, the possibilities of a multi-multiple year package. Again, it's where proven ourselves is important. They're not going to give us five-year funding package if they've gone all certainty over the impact of what it's going to be. So it's a little bit chicken and egg, but it's, yeah, the challenge is for us to prove that it's worth subsequent funding. Thank you. Thank you, John. Helen. Thank you, Chair. Lots of thoughts going through my head at the moment. I have experience with stewarding for jazz festivals and rock festivals, security stewards, volunteers. I presume that's all being planned and looked into. You've got a master plan there. Oh, you're going to have to wait here. Yeah. We work in with a lot of established venues, so those are, you know, just a mess to have those things in place. So, you know, they love the security, the stewards, we're looking at a volunteer program to support that as well. As well as the independent gigs, we'd be working with promoters and established venues that'll have those systems in place. And it's something we'd be totally compliant with, naturally, so, yeah, we wouldn't be doing anything that didn't have that in place. Thank you. I suspect we ought to also think about what's going on in the streets if you're going to have hordes of people coming. But it's really exciting. I think this sounds terrific. I think my grandsons would probably recognize the names, but I confess I don't. One of the things that I did wonder is, have you approached, have you got involved at all with Land of Cathedral? Because they seem to be producing really high quality church music, and more than that, they do other. They do far more than just church music. Yes, we are engaged in one to use Land of Cathedral as a site for one of the special gigs, so I think, as well, to make our festival distinctive, we want to do gigs in unexpected places. So, we look at a program when we've got some pencil dates in Land of Cathedral at the moment. We want to engage them in a general cultural program, and if you look, they do in more music events, so the silent disc was there anyway. And sort of building on what Festival of Voice placed on a few years ago, so they've got, like, Patti Smith. If you know Patti Smith playing in St John's Church in Canton that became a unique, fantastic event, you know, when I was becoming something of a kind of legendary music happening in Cardiff. So, we want to sort of create more of that sort of activity around the city, and Land of Cathedral is kind of top of our list, really high on our list, isn't it? Thank you, that sounds great. Okay, Rodney? Yeah, I mean, I think it always sounds very exciting, actually. I suppose my question is, or my first question really is, is this just really about sort of contemporary music in terms of, you know, both the festival and the music strategy? Or would you consider sort of, you know, broadening it to sort of other genres, like classical jazz, et cetera, because obviously different people have different tastes or whatever? And I suppose I'm interested in about, you know, the sustainability of the funding, obviously I understand you'll have to keep bidding for our governments. What sort of funding are we looking at sort of putting in, because obviously if it's not forthcoming in the future, you know, is there any scope the council could step in, or is it just sort of beyond our capability in this constrained time? And also in terms of how the music festival is organized, is it the council that's coordinating and working with the venues, et cetera? I just remember, you know, going back in the distant past when I was involved with the Cardiff International Festival of Musical Theatre, for instance, and that was at that time set up with funding from the council, funding from the BBC, but it was an independent board running it, and to be quite honest, the people running it didn't make a great job of it and just kept getting it into deficit, and it basically couldn't sustain itself because, you know, you can't end up putting on a festival that actually, not so many people are actually turning up to, is making considerable losses and just kept coming back asking for more money. So, you know, have we learnt from that kind of approach is this sort of something that the council is able to keep a careful eye on as the council sort of got the expertise to make sure that whatever we do we actually operate within the budget we've got? So, answering the first part of the question, we're kind of benchmarking this festival around other successful European festivals, like Sauna in Barcelona, like Reapavon Festival in Hamburg, that is kind of the reputation that we want to achieve for our festival in Cardiff. So, the core sort of program in its contemporary music, because we need that strong identity we feel. So, again, looking at who's pushed the boundaries of the music industry, who's doing interesting things, who's doing things differently. So, once we've got our core program in place, we want to include other genres, and we want to include that sort of carefully in the design of the program. So, we will be working with symphonia Camry, the Royal West College of Music with drama, so using classical musicians to deliver a contemporary program. Once we've got the core program in place also, we create a fringe festival as well, because we want as many people in the city and in Wales and visitors to be included as well. So, we're looking at other kind of takeovers of existing spaces for genres and music. So, you come across pop up, different experiences as you go across the city as well. So, yeah, we've had some interesting calls out in demands for what people are asking for as part of the pop-ups. In terms of the funding, I think realistically speaking, we do need support for it to be certainly over the next few years maintained and probably would be Welsh Government support. There are other avenues we can look at, but that's realistically the position. Otherwise, we'd be effectively just looking at a reduced program, so we could have a smaller event if we can't secure that funding. Actually, that's the exit in this last year. Before you go on to that, maybe John can answer me. What is the quantum of funding that we're getting at the moment for most government? Is this a confidential instruction, or? I think we'll be able to think about it. Yeah. So, for Welsh Government, we had £600,000, but £125,000 was for the build-up activity for this year. So, that's £425 for the rest of the festival. The expertise answer as well. So, one thing to point out, even though it's called a council delivering the festival, I'm working with a steering group of the venues and the experts. There's a lot of experts in our team, in our events team. People have worked in music industry and delivering festivals for years, so I wouldn't think that it's not your everyday council officer that's delivering the festival. It's people who work in music industry. Just to build on that as well, Welsh Government funded project effectively. We have got a steering group that's established, which includes us, Welsh Government, and participating venues. And that's partly for where, you know, soon and twice effectively, who will get in, you know, a substantial element of the funding. So, it's coordinated between all of us at the moment. The council stuff that we do is being led by what the council is doing, so we go our own events team and groups and Kieran here as well as part of it. So, it's more of a steering group coordination, any of the overall theme and feeling of the festival. So, you know, just to come back to what's the structure, but which decisions have been taken about how the funding is spent, because I think that's kind of key, that you've got a clear governance structure around that. Yeah, that's all in place and we wrote a lot of that structure and, you know, who was getting more funding in the original application. We also have, I think we have three different monthly meetings, one overall steering group meeting where we collectively make decisions on the different projects and the funding within that job. Yeah, in reality, soon and twice are responsible for making decisions around their own funding. We're responsible for the rest of the element, which is the wider part of card music festival. Okay, thank you. Can I just check on that? Because obviously, you referenced the stakeholders making decisions in that decision making process. Is there kind of set criteria that's based on the funding or was there a criteria that kind of council have to. So again, is following the guidance of the original funding application and what we have to achieve. We're also set targets by Welsh Government of what we need to achieve as part of that. The open calls and any new projects we use, I've got a council sort of application forms and criteria system there. So then we match that to what we need to achieve and what we've said we're going to achieve to Welsh Government in a funding application form. So it's all the admin is quite tight and that is written and signed as well to create those opportunities so you can find the talent in the city and open up to get their ideas. There'll be some open calls in the next couple of months for people to contribute against a criteria. Brilliant, thank you. Eleanor, do you have any questions? Yeah, thank you. It sounds amazing, but we had two main questions. One regarding your impact assessments. And if you were planning on doing a young people's impact assessment in an environment one, because considering you're trying to do a fringe bit as well. The impact it'll have on the environment of the city, say the rubbish or the fumes from transport. Have you considered any of that? Yeah, well, we will have to do a fairly substantial evaluation of it as part of the funding requirements. And now we'll need to build in, you know, some of the basic things are on the economic impact that would take place. But I think we take on both those comments and we need to understand the wider impact in terms of young people and the sustainability impact, which is something we've built in to the festival itself. I think we'd like to be able to evidence what that is. But if you come back to one of the principles of the festival for us is because it's going to be a city based festival, you know, hopefully it makes it more accessible to people within the city. It brings in a wider group of stakeholders and beneficiaries as part of it, but also it should be more sustainable as well. And some of that is basic. We want people to be cycling to events, walk into events, not, you know, drive into an out of, you know, a more rural location where everyone drives to a location to camp up and it makes it look sustainable and in a picture bring reality. 90% of the people have got there by non-sustainable means and supply chains are not local as well. You know, there are things where they're working with people from far beyond the tone there are. So we want to develop what is effectively a sustainable festival through those local supply chains and what we do through how people get there and engage in, I think, with more innovative ways of making festivals more sustainable from the waste that's created as part of it and how it can be recycled. And some of the examples of that be how we could work with the likes of city center businesses to do things like the reusable coffee cup project the full card if it were working on and building things like that into the project. One other question was about have you considered working with charities such as NVT who actively trying to protect and sustain venues, music venues and young artists so they don't go out of business, have you considered working with them because I think they'll be more than willing to help you guys. Good news we're already working with them quite closely in fact we've got a card of music boards meeting next week and smart David who's kind of the chief executive is coming to present as well. We feel it's really important and I think going back to what John said earlier and delivering the card of music strategy it's all about grassroots music venues sustaining the talent and giving young people opportunities to learn instruments and to work in industry access the venues you know so we feel quite a responsibility of what we've got to protect and develop in the city. And so we are working closely with them and other partners that do similar work UK music and we do ongoing research as well in the sustainability and look to be doing everything that we should be doing to protect the music sector in the city. I would say as well there'll be a conference element to the festival so there'll be a lot of learning, a lot of bands and venues and music businesses can come network and learn as well doing the festival. I would say this bit we've got kind of one planet theme to the festival so looking at how we can you know use that throughout delivering the activity. We also work with music declares emergency and brilliant organization University of South Wales works them quite closely so it's looking their kind of line is no music on the dead planet so doing some really good work with them and just get us to get the messages and the conferences and look in what we should be doing. Okay thanks very much for that roofing thanks for those questions I don't know. Let's go to Katrina online. Thank you chair can you hear me yep. Thank you judges before ask my question because I don't forget to get the chance before we move on to our next agenda item could you give an opportunity to declare an interest please. Thank you. Thank you I very impressed by what I'm hearing and I'm excited by the music opportunities for Cardiff to put it as a put it on the map for what's happening in music and thank you to everybody for all their hard work on this. I can see a lot is being done at the weekend I was lucky enough to get to experience some of the new music opportunities in Cardiff. A group of 12 year olds to new independent recording studio in Cardiff where they were able to make the real rap song and they had a fantastic time the incredible creativity are the opportunity to do something like that. And I saw for myself how effective that could be in reaching teenagers and instead of having them on the streets or in other ways I'm actually engaging them and something that was very exciting for them. So thank you. A question I would like to ask is I'm interested to that the world's being done creates opportunities for independent music musicians independent people rather than feeling things for the big corporations which already you know have a large part of the market. So I want to see independent musicians getting opportunities to make the name to the links and some of the supporting businesses to get involved. So I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are on that. I'd say the majority of the work we're doing is with independent grassroots music venues and creating this opportunities like if you look at Zoom Festival. I would say you know that's completely grassroots John you know and there will be open calls as well so independent musicians can you know respond to the ideas when we put those out and be part of the festival. It's what we want to be unique about the Cardiff Music City Festival that obviously we want to work with the big organizations and there's some really good stories to tell I think part one of the projects and 40 project that we working with so that's creating music opportunities in Cardiff City region for young people and that's been gone for 10 years so within the festival is the 10th year anniversary and we can show the opportunities that that organization has given the young people to start in the music industry where the bands that come through that called CBC is one of the bands that he was Stephen's opened up when he started to broadcast four times a week from central Square in Cardiff on BBC six music. They were one of the biggest bands sort of up and coming in the world at the moment. So, again, we want that to be the Cardiff story and the way we design the festival is, you know, we can see it already that kind of talent pipeline but proved that that is part of a kind of identity and part of the concept of what we're trying to achieve. Katrina, you got a follow up. That's right, but thank you. One of the hurdles I expect, up and coming new acts face is, if they've got if you're having a whether it's a fringe event or impromptu concerts or things. How did you get the message out there? How do people know that this concert's on and they can get tickets and it's a council to help with that in terms of the advertising that the council puts out there using its website, something that gives people a space for the information to get out there. So, so how does that work? Because people don't put on concerts, then nobody comes. Oh, you got it. Yeah, there you go. Thanks very much. We've got a marketing strategy, marketing plan, PR plan, we're working with the company called Work in Word, we're based in Cardiff. They've got a lot of experience on music events, including the music summary. So yeah, we're really excited by the activities that we have planned to bring attention to the festival project. There's paid ads, they'll be running and the different events, obviously soon and slice. They've got their own marketing as well. We're presenting the festival period as one big event that takes place in Cardiff. Obviously, there'll be people interested in the different parts of that different facets. I would also like to kind of tip the hat to Cardiff's music history as well and part of the wider music city work is honoring the foundations of what Cardiff is and has been in order to go forward as well. So that's an important strand for us. But yeah, certainly there's a marketing plan in place with budget to target the right audiences for the various different events. Some of the pop up and installation events that will be across the city will be visible by accident through surprise through word of mouth through again some of our PR activity and media. So yeah, it'll be an exciting time and we're looking to generate a lot of interest in the city and pre and doing. Thanks Kiram. Okay, just wanted to pick up something else following that as well. And it's just to encourage everyone to follow the social feeds of Cardiff music city, which is there to try and promote all kind of activity that takes place in Cardiff. And I think it's the Instagram page will be posting sort of the events that are taking place regularly in the city and that's broadly bringing together things like, you know, what Bradar magazine would be posting was a really good resource to find out what's in Cardiff. So we're not taking away from them what they're doing will be promoting and amplifying those means by which you can find out what's going on. These are often grassroots venues where they have free performances and it's for people who are having their first ever go at performing public sometimes. Thanks, John. Yeah, I was just going to add, of course, the website central theme to holding kind of one stop shop for what's happening during that time. And there's a mailing list, people couldn't sign up and have been signing up. A lot of interest in that. Yeah, that way of communicating to our audiences. Yeah. The web address is Cardiff music city festival dot Wales. So we're just driving all messaging to that site currently until my line is sign up. Brilliant, thanks Kiram. Very simple website name. John Schumann. Thank you, chair and thank you. It sounds very exciting. From what I gather your one of the main council roles is to coordinate the different venues to bring this festival together. Obviously, the venues will be charging. So what are the plans for any free events to help incorporate those who not necessarily able to afford to attend a costed event. So in answer to that, we're very aware of the cost of living crisis. We're very aware of ticket pricing for some of the larger events. So we consciously design in some free events as part of the festival. And what we haven't mentioned to this point is as well as working with musicians, we're working with artists and doing sort of cultural activations, installations in the city centre. So when people arrive in Cardiff or people come out of their homes in Cardiff that they know there's a festival going on. That they come across music, they come across happenings and installations. The city feels like a festival site. Don't be alarmed by that. It'll all operate as it will, but it'll come across things that we wouldn't usually have in the city centre. So there'll be a lot of free activity. So everyone feels included as well. Going back to the question of other genres, and again, I must emphasise this is not the main theme of the festival. We've got a bit of a call out for the Country in Western takeover of one of our existing hospitality venues in the city centre. That seems to be an idea that everyone's warm into being really happy. So we might do that with a few different sort of genres so people can use existing hospitality venues and spaces for coming across. Coming across unexpected genres in the city. Hello, K, John. Thank you very much. OK. If you've got no further questions, then can I thank you very, very much for an excellent presentation and Q and answer session. And it looks like it's going to be brilliant. So thank you very much for that. OK. And obviously we'll discuss it within our way forward anyway. OK, shall we have a quick changeover on personnel? Mm-hmm. OK. Come on. They're busy. All right. OK. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Now, if the presentation fell, John, can I ask you whether you can do it by interpretive dance? OK. So this is a gender item four, which is a pre-decision scrutiny. The cabinet report sets out proposals to protect 11 parks and open spaces from future development by working with schools in trust via a deed of designation, and obviously, I'll focus on selection of sites, the criteria and those elements. So, can I welcome Councillor who Thomas, leader of Council, who's standing in for Councillor Burke. Obviously, given that the report includes proposals in Councillor Burke's ward. John Maidman, who's the head of parks and the harbor authority. And Rodry Edwards, who's the parks planning manager. So, who do you want to start with a statement? Yeah. Thanks, Chair. Good to see you all planned out. Yes, Peter was saying because one of the parks being proposed under the report is in Councillor Burke's ward. You've got the pleasure for me today. Just a few remarks, there's a presentation to come that just want to highlight to people that we are coming up on the 150th year anniversary of the 1875 public health act. That provided powers to local authorities to maintain land for recreation and to raise funds for such. And in the lead up to that momentous historical occasion, the cabinet is currently considering proposals to demonstrate our continuing commitment to protecting the city's parks and green space provision. As indeed, we had set out in our corporate plan agreed back in March. The proposals see a continuation of the Council's partnership with Fields in Trust. This is an organisation I'm personally very familiar with. One of my first duties as a cabinet member all the way back in 2012 was to designate seven sites for a call correctly back then into trust with Fields in Trust as part of the Queen Elizabeth II. It would have been then if I remember correctly. And that was working actually with Prodigy when he worked for Fields in Trust at that point. And then in 2019, Councillor Brudbury designated a further two sites through the Centenary Fields initiative. The proposals and John will go into detail in the presentation. Speak to the long term protection of a further 11 sites in perpetuity securing their use for future generations. These have been selected after careful consideration and through a specific site selection process, which John will cover. And we are taking those proposals out for consultation, but the proposals I gather have been welcomed by a number of local board members already. And we will be ensuring that all stakeholders are made aware of these proposals and their implications. I'll stop there and hand over the presentation. Before you start, John, I did promise I would go to Katrina to want to do a declaration. Thank you, Chair. I'm not sure they are interested, but I'd rather declare them on the safe side. Some of the parks under discussion I live close to make use of. I'm also a member of my family members of Cardiff Ski Club and we ski at Cardiff Fairwater Ski Centre, which is mentioned. And one of the parks mentioned and the field and trust arrangements are under discussion at the moment in my ward as well. So I just wanted to highlight those factors to you. Thank you very much, Katrina. I'm not sure that's prejudicial interest, but thanks for declaring that. Sorry, back to you, Jean. Thank you very much, Jean. Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you very much, all important. As the first slide suggests, it's a two-pronged approach in terms of presentation, myself and Rodri. So in that order, I'll provide a bit of background to fit and protection in Cardiff. I'll talk also a bit about what protection means. Rodri's going to major on criteria and site selection, because as the leader mentioned, I think it's an important issue for members to understand why we selected certain sites. So Rodri will go into some detail there, particularly around the criteria that the Councillor's set, which overlays the criteria that fit of set. And then I'll talk a bit about stakeholder engagement before we move to questions. So first of all, background and current position. So Fields and Trusts, some of you may know them previously as the NPFA, the National Play and Fields Association that was established in 1925, rebranded and renamed as Fields and Trust in 2007. Their remit nowadays goes beyond supporting landowners in protecting public open space, their key in the industry, parts and green space sector, in terms of advocating, providing policy advice, carrying out research. And in terms of the current position within Cardiff's administrative boundaries, we've got 10 Councillor owned sites that are protected, set out in the report, and two Community Council owned sites, CRIGA, Recreation Ground in the Pentecan St Fagans Ward, and two inch Recreation Ground in the Pomp Pronai and Old St Manon's Ward. So what does protection mean, very briefly? It's pretty much business as usual in terms of ownership management and control of those sites remains with the Council. There's no transfer of the sites, no ownership changes, there's no leases or licenses fit inherent in interest through entering into a deed of dedication with the Council. That deed is of a non charitable status, so we're not required to register the arrangements with the charities commission. We are required to preserve land as accessible public open space in perpetuity, and any disposals or changes of use require consent. I say change of use, that's change of use that don't accord with fit subjectives, so non recreational changes of use. And as indicated earlier, and in the leaders opening statement, that protection as well through the deed of dedication is in perpetuity. Thank you, John, and a good afternoon committee. Before I cover the rationale for site selection that's up on the screen there, I will quickly point out that feels in trust as a minimum criteria for protecting sites. And they are, we must, the Council must own the space, we cannot nominate land owned by someone else. The green spaces must be used for outdoor recreation with a wide definition of recreation adopted so it can encompass woodland, gardens, nature reserves, country parks, playing fields and playgrounds. The screen space should be at least 0.2 hectares in size, which is roughly the size of four tennis courts. The green space must have some form of permanent public access. We cannot nominate green spaces where public access is restricted by exclusive events and activities that take up more than 50% of the space for more than three minutes in a calendar year. And finally, we can't nominate facilities owned or leased to private clubs. So moving on to the rationale that's on the screen, the site selection. We've sought to align with feels and trusts relatively new focus for protecting parks and green spaces, which it considers to be more strategically important, where its protection adds a greater value to the current safeguards in place. In the past, feels and trusts would protect any park and green space, and many of those were highly unlikely to be sold or developed, leading to questions, particularly from its vendors about the value of its protection, what it was adding. So it's looking to be more selective in the sites that it's protecting. So firstly, of four criteria, we're looking at parks and green spaces in areas that are deficient in open space as measured against this green space index, the thinking being that any loss would exacerbate the deficiency. Secondly, parks and green spaces in wards, which have a lower soap super awkward areas that are in the top 20% deprived areas and Wales. Feels and trusts research indicates that lower socioeconomic groups are portion greater value to parks and green spaces. Thirdly, parks and green spaces in wards that do not currently have a council owned feels and trusts site. In combination with the 10 sites, the council has already protected and looking to achieve a good spread of sites across the city so that more of the population is within easy reach of a protected site. And finally, parks and green spaces, which include functional open space, and that is open space designated specifically for play, sport and active recreation. This is measured by the council and counted against a stamp that adopted in the local development plan, which was devised by Feels and trusts. So, we're looking not to sort of exacerbate or increase the deficiencies of that particular space. So, having gone through that sort of rational site selection, we are proposing sites that meet at least three of the four criteria listed, and this has resulted in the 11 sites you can see on screen now. So, then on to the stakeholder engagement. So, notifications went to all local ward members in those wards where we were proposing to protect just before the papers were published for this meeting today. We plan to install site signage on all sites in prominent locations within those sites as well. Bilingual signage, provision of a QR code as well, with a link to a webpage where you can find out more about the proposals. Direct contact with key organizations and stakeholders will take place as well, so that could mean your constituted friends groups in any one of those parks or some sporting clubs. There could be many per park. We plan to use social media as well throughout the consultation period, and we plan to report back to cabinet after the recess with the outcomes from that consultation process. We plan to start consultation the first week in June, it might slip into the second, but we're aiming for the first week in June and for six week period. Thank you very much for that John, can we start with Councillor Jones for questions. Thank you very much. Open spaces are always good to protect, obviously. Can I start with having a look at the equality impact assessment, which says that there's absolutely no impact at all on anything and anyone, as far as I can understand it, which cannot possibly be the case, I would imagine. So my question then is what are in these parks, what kind of recreation, who are they targeting, and they must have a disparate impact on different people. That's the first question. Thanks. So the first part of that question, the equality impact assessment sets out that there's no detrimental impact on any groups with protected characteristics and actual fact, there's a positive impact in that we will continue to maintain managed those sites and those sites in perpetuity. You're going to have to switch off your thing to check it back in. That may well be the case for some, but not for others, it depends on if you have a wheelchair, et cetera, about how you can access it and what's on the park. So you may not be able to, or you may not feel that you're able to, I don't want to go into a lengthy thing. But it's making the differential between, for example, and being able to, I don't know, skate somewhere or not. So children access public spaces very differently than we had recently, I think it was two months ago, a huge conference about how, for example, children access public spaces and what's in these spaces, sponsored by the Council as well. So I think there are differentials to be made, not just about open spaces, but what do they look like? Do I feel safe there, for example, do I not, those kind of things? Just to clarify though, the single impact assessment deals with the impact of these proposals and these proposals about protection. So can you explain how you think there's differential impact from adding a protection to the park, not in terms of how it's accessed because that doesn't change with a protection. So the differential impact then, let's say, how you use the parks, et cetera, would come into the decision making, hold on, hold on, it would come into the decision making process of which ones you choose, because protecting them is what, what does it actually benefit? Who does it benefit, if anyone at all. So, you know, it says the multiple deprivation thing, and that two or three of them to have two of the criteria are not met. So maybe there's another area which should have been chosen to protect. Yeah. Can I just, before you, in order to let the other person speak, you're going to have to press your button to turn it off. All right, OK, sorry. Just to come back on your second question, Councillor. I'm going to come back on your second question, Councillor. I've got your third and you might need to repeat that. In terms of the make-up of those sites, the features, a wide variety of features, so in play areas, informal, formal, sport pitches, ornamental areas, buildings. So there's a wide spread of features within those sites. So I take the point on the I.A. The second question about what's the make-up of the sites? Can you sorry, can you repeat the third question? I think the issue is, Jackie, obviously everything you've said there is entirely relevant to how we develop those paths. But what this proposal does is, as I understand it, and obviously, please correct me if I'm wrong, it's take those paths in terms of deed into the field in trust arrangement. And that doesn't, as expected, in itself, change, help out that. Just remember your third question, Councillor Jones and the benefits. The benefits are that those sites are protecting perpetuity for development. So if someone wants to come in for a small to make a proposal for non-recreational use, then consent would be required from fields in trust. So we're protecting that provision by entering into that deed of dedication with fields in trust, in perpetuity. It was about what recreation looks like for different. So the criteria of protecting an open place has a differential impact on those who might be able to use it. So the choice of what location you pick in the city could benefit. It probably would benefit, but I don't think it's assessed in the equality impact assessment of individual locations. To me, it sounded like you were making an assumption, well, it's an open space, so it's in perpetuity, you can't build on it, but there might be other places that are much more beneficial to certain groups of individuals who were trying to benefit future generations act, for example. That was my point. I'll move on to Peter if that's okay. Where did the 10 minute aspect come from? Thank you. That is a sort of barometer that fields in trust use is considered sort of what is an amount of distance that people would be prepared to walk to reach a park or green space. And it's an average of those who are able to walk as in the 15 minutes city is about whether you can cycle to that space and walk to that space, but one quite clearly, not everyone's are able to do that there isn't it. Okay. Peter. So the thing I've been struggling to do on the documents we've got is scrutinize it because we haven't got sight of the deed of dedication. In the documents we've been given we've got no legal text about no nothing and now I'm not a lawyer. I'm not pretending I could necessarily scrutinize the text, but the fact that we haven't had sight of it in our documents is, in my opinion, a major oversight. I understand it will come back to us in the future. But I would have liked to see what the text of the deed says here today and I can't do that on the current basis so my first question is reflect on that. I don't know whether you want to give a verbal response or a guarantee that it will come back next time. Yeah, take the point and we should include that going forward, but essentially I can summarize it. It's sort of three four page document, which essentially means that the council has to hold the land as a public open space recreation ground. So, so as John said, nothing would change from what is currently taking place. But if the council wishes to dispose of any part of that land, that means sort of at least granting a right source, selling it off, or wants to use it for any other purpose, not fitting with being an outdoor space for recreation, then it must seek interest, consent, and essentially say, if it's not for the benefit of the open space, if it's sort of using it for other purposes, it was basically say no. I do understand the summary, the point of me is to scrutinize, and I cannot scrutinize without the text, and I'd also probably point out that the text of the deed should also be available for the consultation. And I do not think it is reasonable to ask community groups to scrutinize on the basis of a summary. Community groups should be able to scrutinize on the basis of the text that is being agreed, which brings me on to my second question. Management is a very broad term to tie this a little bit back in with a council agenda question. For instance, would this allow or prevent the council from if they wanted to install lighting throughout a park to make it more accessible to people? Does that come under the heading of management, or would the council be prevented from installing things that would, would substantially change the character of the park, making it available at night, would substantially change it from as it currently is? But I do not know on the basis of the documents we've got, whether that would fall into management, or whether that would be a considerable change of use. So can you please tell me with that example where that would fall? Yes, essentially any sort of development or structure, which is therefore for play, outdoor play, sport and recreation, or to support that use could be examples of floodlights of a sports pitch, the play area, and the associated change rooms. You could even, perhaps a small car park to allow people to visit that site, anything which supports that, the use of that site as an outdoor recreation space would be permitted. To be fair, that cabinet paper seems somewhat slim on the details, if you know what I mean, and while it's brilliant to have you here to explain it, it probably would be helpful to have those kind of FAQs or that criteria within the, either within the cabinet papers or in the information to committee. Small supplementary, if I can be a loud chair, who determines that criteria? Is it the council that makes the determination about whether a change is purely of management characteristic? Because I can see people, for instance, arguing that if the council wanted to implement a no-mo situation on a playing field that was well used, that might impact the ability of recreation on that space. Obviously, that would be a discussion the council would have, but I'm asking who is responsible for making that determination? Is it purely the council, or is it field's interest? It was the council proposed that sort of rationale, but that was based on what field's interest is trying to achieve, trying to protect sites, which it considers our strategic importance. That first bullet point was areas where there's a sort of current deficiency in green space, thinking that if that space was developed, then there'd be even less green space. So there's that minimum criteria, as you mentioned, but then that rationale, which as I said, we've tried to sort of follow fields and trust new focus of protecting these strategically important spaces. Can I just respond to your specific question about the one-mo counsellor, one of fit's themes, as well as recreation is biodiversity. So, you know, that type of proposal, you know, would strike a chord with fields and trust. It wouldn't be prevented from extending our regime of one-mo sites. That wouldn't be an issue. That wasn't part of my question. My question was, if there's a dispute, who mediates that dispute between the change of use? Somebody says it is, you say it is, and council says it isn't. Somebody else says it is. What happens? That a mowing regime wouldn't be a change of it, but that space is still a public open space, so it's not a change of use. It's sort of a few. I think you're hooked on the specifics there. The question is around, if there is a dispute, whatever that dispute is between different parties, who resolves that. Right. Yeah, okay. There's an ownership, a management, a maintenance, stays with the council. Feels interest would not get involved unless there's a change of use. And then they give consent to, if it's, yeah. If there's a change of use from being a public open space to perhaps maybe a new school, that's when you need to feel some trust consent. Just coming on just on a more generalist point, and I appreciate where the comments are coming from in terms of scrutiny. I think it is worth reflecting. We've gone through this process two times previously in the last 12 years. This is the first time that we are actually consulting on which parks that we are going into. So that clearly gives scrutiny a second bite of the cherry, should it so wish. But I think that enhancement of consultation, rather than just council say, here's the parks we're doing. And, you know, crack on. I think that's an improvement and an enhancement. But I would also just highlight the fact that we have got, you know, half a dozen plus of these parks already in this arrangement with feels and trust. You know, the issues you're trying to draw out to think are fair questions, but I would just highlight that the arrangements are working extremely well. You know, in all of those parks and have enabled us to protect those parks and give, you know, give that long term protection was still maintaining. And a varying management regime, including to Justin and NOMO and all the rest of it. Okay. Helen. Thank you, Chair. I think anything that makes prevents people taking our valuable bits of green space, turning them into more. Any sort of thing that people can't access and people can't enjoy. I think it's a good thing. And my only real question is, are we still able, is this a finalised list because I think Peter will be very pleased to know that I would actually be putting a plug for Radder Vale Park, which is not in my ward, but is in Lander because that is used extensively by locals. You're going to have to press your button. So, this is the list we're consulting on. That is not to say that this will be the last tranche of fields of parks that we ever transfer into trust. Clearly, there are those criteria that Roger is talking about, you know, that come from fields and trust in terms of what would be, what would qualify. And I'm not familiar with that particular park to have a sense of whether it would qualify, but I think, you know, I think the administration would be open to a further round of parks or parks. Or playing fields being put into trust. I was just wondering whether we could sneak it in now, please. Anyway, let's move on to Rodney. Okay, thank you, Chair. Yeah, I've got some questions regarding, you know, the protection that the fields and trust status actually affords to the open space. So, obviously, you know, sometimes there is this quiet about things being done in our parks as we're all aware. So we see, you know, Haley Park is on the list here and we've had a lot of concerns from the community in that area in the land of North about the city pumping station, which has gone in there. So I suppose the question really would be, if you've got fields and trust status on a piece of land and say, do you come here, come along and say that they need to build a city pumping station on there. Would they have the right to override that? Or would that fields and trust status mean that we'd be blocked from happening if such a scenario occurred in one of those parks in the future? No, statutory access rights were still applying. So it would necessarily prevent that. So the other example I'll give is a little bit closer to my ward and that's in North Wreck because, obviously, North Wreck currently has fields and trust status. And there are works going on there, and I get a lot of comments from the community. People are a bit unhappy with how some of those works are taking shape. And, obviously, this is about putting in improved footpaths and putting in a cycleway, et cetera. And the pitches have had to be reconfigured by the works we're going on. And I can't get a straight answer at the moment from the council as to whether when we go back, when the works are completed, we'll go back to four pitches of the same size as the pitches we had before. Because the paths have been moved into the smaller area inside. Now, my reading of the fields in trust protection criteria, when you look at their website, is it provided it's just a different mix of outdoor sport and recreational space. Then it didn't needed their permission. So I suppose there's nothing that the council is doing there that would require it to go to fields in trust to get permission. And I think a lot of people in the community would then think, well, what protection then is that fields in trust status giving, because a lot of them aren't happy with what's happening. I'm getting a lot of complaints about, you know, the width of this new path and cycle path, the fact they've been moved into the park and reduced the space for the pitches, et cetera. So, you know, the feeling out there is that the parks don't seem to be protected as the way, well, that part doesn't seem to be protected in the way the community would have expected from the fields in trust status. So I wonder, is my understanding of that right that basically that kind of changes wouldn't necessarily be prevented by fields in trust status. Yeah, that is correct. It's sort of, again, it's sort of a management issue. It's a question of how it's designed and how it's laid out. It's still a public open space, although things have to be configured, because it hasn't been a change in use. That particular sort of project hasn't needed fields, interests, involvement, or consent. Yeah, I acknowledge that there's a concern about it. But I think that the path is replacing an old sort of path that's sort of uneven in poor condition. It runs parallel would be improved accessibility. It'll be new benches, new gym equipment. So, I think the feeling is that sort of it will, you know, improve the parks facilities. Is there a definitive list then of what is not possible in terms of improvements, developments, whatever you want to call them impacts? I suppose it's, isn't a definitive list. It's anything which isn't sort of being used as sort of outdoor recreational sort of use or supporting that use. For example, on Rotorick, if you wanted to build a sports hall, although that's sports, because of the indoor activity, that wouldn't be permitted. Any sort of building which isn't supporting the outdoor use wouldn't be permitted. And it's the restriction of public access, right? If you were to fence an area off and say that's no longer public home space, that would be. That's the key criteria, right? Sorry, that's one of the basic criteria is the sort of public access. Because generally, especially for your consultation, be beneficial to residents to be able to see that criteria, if that makes sense. We'll have a link to that criteria. Otherwise, the hairs will go running, you know, everywhere. It's all actually on the fields and trust websites. So, for instance, there are things you can build. It says you don't need to get the permission to build things like sports beforehand, changing rooms, public toilets, storage facilities for sports and play equipment and machinery, or cafes, provided they don't exceed 20% of the overall protected area. So, you know, it doesn't necessarily give the protection that some people might think. And I think you're right. I think we should be very clear about what protection we're giving. And maybe if that was explained in the cabinet report, I think that'd be helpful for the public. Okay, thanks. Thanks, Rodney. Let's go to, I don't know. Yeah, thank you. I have two main questions because I believe it was Cardiff commitment that undertook a wide consultation throughout Cardiff. With young people called match now. This highlighted some of the main spaces that young people use and went to, and the details of why they like these spaces or didn't. And was any of this data actually used when considering these spaces that you're trying to protect? I'm not aware of that data, I have to say, so the data that was used in considering these sites was based on the site selection that Roger is described. But happy to look at that. Okay, thank you. I also have one other question. It may sound a bit stupid, but I know it doesn't class as building, but once these sites are protected, would it be possible for Cardiff Council, or I've got the name of the company you're also working with? Would it be possible for them to promote more biodiversity in these parks, so it impacts the environment more? Because I know in these spaces, they don't have a lot of green space, so it may have a bit more of an impact. Would that be possible or not? We can certainly do that, as I mentioned earlier, one of the key themes for Cleveland Trust is biodiversity, in addition to protection. I think there's an opportunity within the sites that we're looking to protect to promote some of the work that we're doing there with volunteer groups, and some of the work that we're doing linked to the local ownership, and they should partnership in Cardiff as well. Okay, excellent. Let's go to Katrina. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. You've come up with 11 parks to protect, but I sensed, perhaps, a ripple of fear that the parks that are not on that list are a greater risk or exposed. And I think the fear is that if a park is not on that list, why is it not on the list? Why? It's one thing to consult with Councillors about parks in the world, which are going to be getting the fields and trust protection, but what about consulting, the wildlife counsellors, about their wards, or whether or not other parks in their wards would benefit from it? Can you say anything to reassure them in the sense that the parks that are not being protected? Thank you. Yeah, thanks. It's a fair question. And I've got to say, back in winter 2021, I was slightly alarmed when I was, I was on holiday, actually, and I was scrolling through Facebook and paid for ads from fields and trust came up, which said that I think if it was 80 or 90%, 90% of parks in Cardiff are at risk. I was like, what? I don't think so. And what, yeah, the argument that feels and trust at the time we're saying was that exactly to your point, Katrina, if the parks are not protected, then they are at risk. I guess in the truest sense, that could be true. But clearly, most of the parks have been in Cardiff, not in trust for many, many years, and they are still there and are not at risk. So I think what we are trying to strike is the right balance. And I think what the criteria gives in particular is this helpful notion, if you accept the 10% measure, recognising that that's imperfect, but taking it as a measure, that we are intending to increase the number of protected parks within which a percentage of the population can access within 10 minutes. That is not to say, and I don't want more hairs being set running, that everything that's not being taken forward today is subject to development. You could take an extreme view, I guess, that, well, why don't you put every park into trust? And I think that the danger in that one is the administrative burden, that that would entail the unintended consequences and the restrictions that that might put on a feature council, and this is in perpetuity, that that could restrict the council at that point doing something in an area where circumstances have changed beyond recognition to what we are dealing with now. And exactly the very basic example might be the mall, right? And then the ongoing redevelopment of the council housing channel view. Now, there is a very small sliver of land within the mall that is going to be taken out of the mall and used as part of that redevelopment will be compensated for in another part of the development. And I think there will be an improvement in the overall net biodiversity, but nevertheless, if a mall was within a field of trust, that development would not be able to go ahead or there'd be significant issues to overcome. So I think that is why a barness approach is necessary, and I think there are examples out there in other core cities of cities that have gone to that extreme and then found themselves in quite some difficulties. So I think it's a good question to ask that we love our parks and card if we want to see more of our parks enhanced, and we're appropriate protected, and that's what this is about. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. I suppose I find it just difficult to understand why some parks need the special protection and get rid of being in fields of trust. Other parks, it's all right, just rely on the council because the council's not got big plans to start house building on our parks. I would very much. But I can understand one reason people have historical numbers, why we have these situations, but actually we've done a review, and for some reason we've decided that parks were going to protect, and those parks were not going to protect. I suppose I just can't quite make sense of that in my own head. But thank you for the explanation that you have given. Another question I have given topically, given that we've just been looking at caravirus live music scene, if a park went into a field and trust with the council, then itself be able to, or with an ability to put up a sort of temporary music concert venue in that park. If it wanted to, maybe it's part of a music festival, it wanted to find more venues across Cardiff and spread the crowds around, or because it's music and it's not a sporting matter. Does that mean that wouldn't work? I'd like to understand that. Thank you. We would be able to approve the installation of a temporary structure councilor as a music festival, or something similar, and just coming back on the original question and falling on from the leaders response. What we're trying to do here is something that's manageable. We're looking to put 11 sites with feels and trust to protect them. That will take our total to 21. We've done 10 separately in two batches. It is quite an undertaking and inputs from our estates department, our legal department, as well as the park service, creating those data dedication as well, and that can take up to six months from point of decision to protection. So we want to put something forward that is manageable. I, like everyone else, would like to see, you know, the vast majority of our public open space protected, but we need to do what's manageable. OK, let's, John, you sell on. Yes, I'm here and everything's been asked for me. So thank you. OK, thanks. Thanks, John. Can I just, you mentioned, John, obviously, we've got 10 existing parks in in. FIT in two, two transfers. Has there been any kind of kind of in terms of existing parks? Does the field interest element hold any kind of bureaucratic hurdles to what residents or counselors want to do in the parks? And I say that with the benefit of knowing that some of the heave counselors, shall we say, a little bit frustrated with some of some of the developments there. I can't say that it has, Councillor, since 2012, 13, we had very little contact with FIT, sometimes a local resident may make representations representations to fit about a particular issue in a protected park. But those, that liaison with FIT and those conversations have been few and far between. And we've never been in a situation of dispute with fields in trust either. It's been a radically, you know, easy relationship. And I think that's because we want the same thing, you know, FIT want that protection and the council wants that protection as well. So, you know, we're not odds. And that's not so, so in this, with the heave parks, now, then that's none of the stuff agreed with counselors, whatever has been impacted by a field of trust status. No, OK. All right. And my last question, that's all right, because we've talked about fields in trust consent for any changes. Can I just check whether there's an SLA time period for decisions on that? Bearing in mind, obviously, the charity's commission, Mandy Park situation. OK. So, Rod will finish off on this, but we do have to enter what they call a partnership agreement with fields in trust if cabinet decides to protect the 11 sites that we're putting forward. And, Rod, perhaps you can provide an update on the timeframe that is applicable there. Yeah, they've asked the council, once we've sort of committed or completed that partnership agreement, we look to complete the deeds of dedication within six months. And the experiences they've had with other authorities of things dragged on for months and years, and it does take a lot of this sort of staff time. So, I think it's just a commitment from the council to try and bring things to a sort of complete question. We have a fixed obligation, if we come to them with a change of use. There is sort of an application process for sort of any changes of use or disposals. Most common probably would sort of leases, perhaps the small clubs or granting of rights to statutory undertakers. I can't think of any sort of occurrences where we've had to go to fields in trust in the last sort of 10 years on the sites we've already protected. But is there a an agreed SLA in terms of time scales for decision to be made? No, no. There was an application process to go through. We've complete forms provide the necessary information. And I think they aim to come back to the council within a month with a decision. Okay. Okay. Yeah, it would be for both parties agree at the variation. I guess I could be something to capture in the deeds. Yeah, that would be helpful, wouldn't it? Yeah, we wouldn't want to be waiting like we are on the charity commission. Okay, if there's no further questions then. Thank you very, very much for that presentation exchange. I do think a lot of our questions came from a lack of information, if you don't mean, so more information to us. I can't guarantee you would be any quicker known the committee, but at least it will deal with some of those questions early, early doors. Obviously, we'll discuss in our way forward and get back to you. Thank you very much, John and Roger, and you. Shall we have a quick break? We're done two hours down here. Shall we have a quick five minute break? Thank you. Thank you, Chair. This is just a brief report. Angela's prepared that outlines since the previous meeting. The chair's letters and the responses that have been received and those that are being awaited. So, outstanding two full responses and two partial responses. And say we'll continue to sort of chase those and provide you with the responses when we get them. So, in relation to the music festival, we heard about broadly the funding for the festival. We did request further information following the meetings that they're going to have with the Royal College of Music and Drama and see what their action plan is going forward. We asked about the equality, equality and single impact assessment, which wasn't available, but officers did state that it was important going forward to make sure that the music festival was going to be as inclusive as possible. We picked up in that. It wasn't just about accessibility. It was about the neurodivergence and sort of quiet spaces. I think a lot of what we heard from the officers that this is the first year of this festival and they are looking to build on this going forward to ensure that it's a sustainable festival that has a good reputation. I think there are a number of targets they mentioned from the Welsh Government and there's a steering group that they have that's sort of making decisions going forward. Can we ask for a copy of what those targets look like from Welsh Government? Certainly, yes. I would guess it's all linked to the application or the approval that's come back from Welsh Government. We'll have those criteria and targets in there, so yes. We can ask for the targets Welsh Government targets. They clarified the funding for one year only, but they're looking to build the identity and success of the one year so that there's confidence in investors going forward. We asked about stewarding security and volunteering to support events and other venues. Again, I think this initial festival is being built on it being new and innovative music, but going forward they want to sort of build on that when the festival is more successful. We also asked around structure and governance around decision making and who sort of decides where the money is spent and we hear that it's sort of soon and slice responsible for their own funding, but let's say this board makes decisions around Council and money and there is criteria for those decisions and it's all within the funding application. It's the funding application, is that a confidential documentation? If the funding application confidential information or is that shareable? We can certainly ask that in the letter. Ask for a copy of the funding application to see exactly what was put in there. Yeah. I wasn't clear from the answer whether it was the board that was responsible for the rest of the expenditure outside of the student and client, whether it was the Council. I thought he indicated it was the Council that was John did. My interpretation was that he was the board with IE. Can we really ask for clarity about the decision to take in? Who is accountable for making those decisions and monitoring the spending? Certainly so we'll ask for accountability in relation to the decision making for that. The card of Council elements of the grant. Because it's basically what the targets are, what the funding is, how the decision is made. I think we'd hope if we've got a copy of the funding application and the response from the whilst government, that should all be contained within that. Yep. Okay. We also looked at the environmental impact of the festival and they were talked about it being a sustainable festival. And any sort of waste created, they were looking to reuse it and they were working with companies to do that. And charities, for example, the NBT that support. And they're already working with these groups. We were also recommended to sort of go to their website where all of the information is being collected and sign up for newsletters and lots of these events are going to be promoted through sort of social media streams. So lots of them will be promoted, lots will be by word of mouth, lots of them may be by accident. So I think there's lots going on until up forward to in the city. So anything else you needed me to cover in the chair's letter? So in terms of the chair's letter, what I've got is we're going to ask for the further information that was requested following the meetings with the Royal College of Music and Drama following the sort of reducing funding and work with the young people. We want a copy of the funding application and the response from our government around sort of criteria and targets they're being asked for. And hopefully that'll include some of the accountability in relation to the decision making. Yeah, just for them to clarify what that decision making, whether it was just council or the stakeholder group. And then just to thank them for one of like an incredible music festival. I brought up the issue of security, stewarding, volunteering and what plans do they have to meet that. I think that's important. That was mentioned in the way back way forward. I mean, you've picked it up. Sorry. Yeah, it was mentioned, but it is. They responded to it saying they're working with the, they responded to your question by saying they're working with the venues that already have. And they also responded that they were in touch with them. They were working with them. Yeah. To be fair, it is standard practice for any event to have that baked in as part of the planning. Thank you, okay. Okay, in relation to fields interest, there's quite a lengthy discussion around equality impact assessment and having a meaningful assessment around these spaces going forward. I think we were told that access hasn't changed, but it's about how those spaces will be used going forward and what the individual makeup of those spaces are. So I think there was some more work to be done around that. I think we were talking across purpose. I think there was a misunderstanding there. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if we want to ask them anything specifically in the jazz letter to clarify. The point that Councillor Jenkins was making was that it would have been helpful for us to have actually seen a draft of the legal document so that we could actually come into on that. We've moved on. Sorry. No, we haven't reached that yet. Sorry. Yeah. Certainly that is one of my points to there in the letter to request the copy of the wording. And I think there was also a suggestion later on that we include what should be included in that wording is some SLA around time scales for decision making for any decisions going forward. So I think that needs to be captured as well. We asked about the 10 minutes and where does that sort of come from. We asked about what what are the criteria for what can and can't be built in a fields interest protected park. And I think there was some clarification there. And there was sort of questions about why don't we just do all of them. And I think there is an awful lot of work that seems to go into the office of time and legal time to draft all these these papers and documents to support it and the concentration that sits behind it, which is why it's not being done as a sort of a wholesale thing and not wanting to tie up future proposals potentially with the parks. I think that was it. Was there anything else that you wanted me to include particular? Yes. Sorry, Eleanor. If possible, I think the impact assessments because they didn't seem like they were done fully or correctly and they didn't consider the other effects. You're right. You did mention the card of commitment consultation and how young people use this space is and John mentioned he wasn't aware of that and he will look at it. So, yes, sorry, I missed that one. I've got that one done. Will it be a recommendation? Would it be a recommendation of ours that they do put that data, consider that data? Yeah. I'm not sure, Eric, have you covered it, but I think we were also asking for more information about what protection the fields and trust it has gave and what changes have you needed to get permission from them for to be included in the cabinet report. Yeah. And the consultation. And then going back to Peter's point, you talked about seeing a copy of the deed. And if we can tie that in with including a time scale decision SLA into the deed with, for each park with feel and trust, that would be helpful. Okay. Okay. Okay. Are we, are we, are we sorted? Okay, we're done. Next meeting, 430 on Tuesday, 18th of June, as we enter, enter holiday season. Bye. Thank you very, very much everyone. And I hope you have a good evening. Thank you everyone for your contribution today.