Transcript

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the HR Committee meeting. My name is Kancella Abdul-Malik, and I am the chair of this committee. This meeting has been held on the personal reason member might be joined online in the meeting room allowed to vote. I will remind member at meeting to only speak on my direction, the record. Can everybody make sure the mobile phones are switched off or silent mode? Justina, do you have any apologies? Yes, Chair. I have apologies from Councillor Kabir Ahmed. Councillor Mustak Ahmed is here as his substitute. Thank you, Justina. Before I move, I would like to welcome our new member, Councillor Muhammad. Can I ask member and guest to introduce yourself and declare? I have a declaration to declare, a lay member for GMB. Nothing to declare. Nothing to declare. Councillor Olla, nothing to declare. Also, I ask for guest to introduce yourself, please. Thank you, everyone. People online, please, can you introduce yourself? Paul Patterson, corporate director for housing and regeneration. Albo is a legal adviser to the committee. Justina Bridgeman, democratic services officer. Thank you, everyone. So our first item that is corporate director up-to-date, I would like to welcome to give any up-to-date. You have five minutes. OK, thank you, Chair. The committee members will appreciate that the housing and regeneration director was newly formed in November last year, which then commenced a work on the restructure, which saw THH coming into the council. The work around the restructure, which was presented to committee in May for approval, created the integration of THH homes into a single management function next to realigning council house building services under one division, which was called regeneration housing and supply of assets. It also, that restructure saw the separation from the original housing management function into a separate division of housing options, which is currently under Julie's remit at this present moment in time. But it formed a new function within the council, recognizing the complexity and the increasing demand around housing options. Next to the fact that the housing management function with THH was important, though there was a single management function created, that began to enable the director to develop a service that was customer centered and recognizing that we are now in an era where consumer standards and regulatory standards are far more complex and there was a need for the council to ensure that it had the appropriate structure to respond to those increases. Since the approval of the committee in May, that signals a lift and shift of some 21 teams across the director, primarily moving the line management of heads of services into each of those divisions, particularly housing supply, moving on the regeneration and housing supply assets division with the separation from the original structure, which saw housing options separating out and then forming, as I've mentioned, a single housing management function. It also saw the new division formed of strategy and policy and regulatory assurance, that post and that division was created to ensure that the council had clear focus on strategy and had an oversight within the director in response to the changes in regulation, particularly around building safety and also in terms of the consumer standards I've just outlined. That work in terms of the restructure was completed on the 1st of September, so this new structure is in place, which sees that director now newly formed and the lift and shift of those heads of services in the line management complete. What that now signals is the preparation for recruitment of the vacant pavement approach for directors and as committee will appreciate, David Joyce starts on Tuesday of next week and clearly David will pick up that recruitment process to bring in permanent roles for the director of regeneration and housing supply and assets that will also involve the appointments and looking to bring in a director of housing management. The director of housing policy and strategies has been taken up with current shift moving into that role with the experience of undertaking and delivering policy and they also will see the movement towards a permanent post and position of the director of housing options. To stop at this point, are there any questions from committee? Thank you, Paul, for your up to date. Do you have any questions? Thank you for that, Paul. Just a comment and a question, I suppose. That's a lot of information. I think I appreciate your David starts next week. I think in future, just a note, it would be really helpful to have written briefings, trying to take that much information and it's going to be near enough and possible to keep up to date with it. And my question is, will the committee at some point see a chart that shows the information of five from the top of David where each of the directorates is going to sit? So chair, can I respond? I welcome the comment. Can I suggest following this session that we do circulate to the committee the new structure and the services sitting underneath that structure and I can issue that to the committee if they so wish? That would be really helpful. Thank you. Any other question, comment? Thank you. I just wanted to ask around the director's post that are vacant right now, I don't want to name the officer but I'm a bit surprised it does mean an officer who's at work who's with us now, her role is seems to suggest it's vacant, so I'm a bit confused about that. I don't know if I'm allowed to name the officer? I don't think I can, can I? So can you just explain what's that happened because that seems like the change from the last update. Sorry, sorry, chair, I'm not clear in terms of which particular directoral or division we're referring to. Sorry, can I just say that we are going to go into the senior recruitment so details will be laid out there. So her role has changed. Her original role was split, we all know was needed, does that help? Thank you Julie. Sorry, just out of interest Julie, when that happens and the person agrees to doing it, their role and the JR or the amount of money they make, sorry, is for a certain role, so how is that then updated and transferred to the new role, so you've taken one role and gone to two, so are they protected in terms of their pay for the next two years or what is their arrangement in terms of that transfer? Again, I'd be wrong to talk about the head, the one Paul and the team have put in place, and it's the one that has followed the council's full processes and Liz has been supporting that. So our next item is the council year case work and policy review, any up-to-date made since last meeting? I would like to welcome Liz Hensley, internal head of cooperative H, you have five minutes or 10 minutes. Thank you chair, so this paper explains the trends in the cases, so in view of the increase -- I mean, that's not ideal, because I think there's a few things here to -- it's helpful to know about the managers and the heads of being trained up, my question is around unintended consequences of doing that, so you're taking -- I appreciate doing one or two cases a year, but could you talk about the average time an investigation takes and them being taken away from obviously their main duty and their main responsibility and how we manage and mitigate. Next question, Councillor Shaffi. Thank you, chair. It's good to know the CMTR being trained or on the verge of being -- is there a timeline on when they will be trained and if there's any training that takes -- I mean, basically what's the timeline on those trainings? So the investigating training is starting next month. Thank you, chair. Just one follow-up point about that, so I appreciate part of management is people management, but as you kind of mentioned, some of these cases can be incredibly complicated and go on and that would itself take a bunch of energy and take people away from there, so there's standard management, isn't it, and people management. My point was about what we're doing to put in place with the more complicated cases, but I think it's something to take away and to think about. My actual question was, with children's and adults' health and social care, of the disciplinaries and grievances, it would be helpful to know how many are that DBS check to have safeguarding positions and why they're going through some of the disciplinary grievances, what that does to anybody they may come into contact with who is vulnerable and understand what those safeguarding responsibilities, but I can certainly look into that for you. Yeah, that would be helpful, so just a follow-up action, yes. Any more comments? Yeah, can I just bring your attention to the grievances for each of the directorate. So firstly, are the directors, is this divided up, the directorate as we know it today? Because we've had movement in the... Sorry, my assumption is that that grievance dates from the directorate did exist. Okay, but then you've got housing as its own. And we've got housing and... So you've got a housing directorate, but then you've got place. Yes. Which part of place do you mean? Because housing was under place. So housing regeneration has subsequently become... But the grievances and the complaints disciplinary, whatever we've registered here, what are they? Which department are they? Like, can you just give me an idea? Is it public realm? Is it parking? Is it... I don't have that information to handle, I just have to look into that for you. Okay. So I just wanted to ask regarding the grievances, do you see a trend in any of the directorates? Because with housing going through its restructure and everything that's going on, that kind of... You kind of make sense of what's going on there. But then you've got the chief executive office, and I just wanted to understand if you were able to provide a little bit context as to what's going on, is there a trend that we should be looking out for? So I guess for this committee, the reason why it's important to have those contexts so we can look out for situations where do we have an issue with protecting our female staff? Or do we have an issue with imbalance of power? What are we looking out for? So it will help us, because this is a new committee, it will help us to shape where we're looking and what the questions we're asking, so we're not wasting a lot of your time here in the committee. So providing us more with context means we can focus our questions on that as well. I absolutely appreciate that, and I'll make sure... Thank you, the report is being muted, please. Our third item is up to date, the senior decision, before I take the urgent and set out for the report. Sorry, I don't think the reason's being set out. It's just a simple line which says, and I report, this report was not ready in time for the gender publication, so any reason for it, or is that an acceptable point? So I think that, rather than it being democratic service, I think it's the person who speaks to the report, ideally. So I can talk to seek more applications for the role, and shortlisting is going to be in the middle of next month. For director of public realm, we are just going out to mark of housing management, the director of housing options and homelessness, the director of regeneration and housing assets, and the senior head of housing, the committee's approval is sought, as Julie mentioned earlier, to extend the engagement of Mark Norman as interim director of governance for a period of six months. Yes, Julie. I wonder if you'd mind if I could add a little bit of context to that, that I think members will be interested in. Just on that, I know there's a long list of, it's good to hear some of the jobs that are going out, in particular public realm. We're under the understanding that there's somebody already in that position who got recruited. That's not what I understand. So the update I received from the corporate director this afternoon, currently reviewing what's in the young town hamlets. I'm sorry. I mean, Liz, would you respect, I was under the impression that, you know, the great walls of this town hall, the Mummerings, that there was a place, person who was acting, well, this is that the name here is not true to the names that we were led to believe, that their person was recruited or is acting in the role of the director of youth and commissioning. But the black and white here, A, is gender different, names different, but we heard something different. So, I mean, this was before the best value review people came in. Has there been a change? If so, I would like to dig up the old records of mine. There was a change. So you will recall that we appointed a permanent director of children's services, Steve Fredy, who oversees youth. He reviewed the role, he reviewed the scope of the role, and as a result of that role changing, some interim arrangements were put in place and no permanent appointment was made to the post. So that was the update, last meeting, and after the last meeting there was a recruitment, as far as we know, there was a recruitment into this role of director, commissioning and youth, and now we see that it's up for, the post is being reviewed. So don't really understand, and the name was, even the interim name does not match the person, the officer we know in place, so we're just a bit confused. It might be, the name might be different, it might be a totally different role, we don't know, but we just are really confused about this. And I know this because I congratulated him when he got the job, so. I will ask Steve Reddy to provide a full, more detailed explanation to you all between meetings, so he'll follow that up by email. So I wasn't privy to the update Steve's given to Liz today, she says that that's the update she's received from the corporate director, and I can ask him to expand. All I can tell you is that there have been changes to the original proposals for that role as a direct result of a new corporate director being appointed, wanted to take the opportunity to review what the scope of the role was for youth services, young town hamlets, and on that basis, the decision was taken, not to proceed with the appointment as planned, but to put in place instead some interim alternative arrangements until such time as the corporate director. So the title matches with the name that I have in mind, and as far as our council email and our system, it says this person is employed for this role, so either this is a typo, which could be, but it's the wrong information. The gentleman is clearly – here you go, you can have a look. I'm sure human error does happen, you know, we live in the world of AI, but human errors do happen, and if that's the case, then the best value report should also acknowledge that in the future, if there is a need for that. Then can I ask Liz, would you mind checking if that is a typo, if it is the wrong person's name, can you please let people know, in terms of the description I gave you as to the chronology of what has happened, that was accurate, I'm happy for that to be minuted, but we will confirm to you if an error has been made on an HR report to you. Thanks. Let's come back and say, if we're doing this, can I also find out, so the name that is mentioned here, where that name came from, it might be an officer from another role. Okay, it might be, so if we could get that clarity, so for any future minutes and paperwork, at least we know where this name came from. One thing I think that will provide real clarity for that, because I know that name, is if we commit to do exactly the same as Paul Patterson committed to, he said he would provide you with structures of managers and names, I will ask Steve Reddy to do the same at the same time, if that's okay. Thank you, and sorry I forgot something, member Angus, the minute of last meeting, 16 of 2024, have been, can you confirm they are correct? Sorry, have we moved on from this report? I didn't really ask my question, I just helped Councillor Ulloa with his question. My question is, Director for Legal Services, the monitoring officer, the lead in time to this role is quite a long time, because last time we were almost there, can you just give me some more information about why that's happened? So the start date before she arrives, but it hasn't been due to any problems at all, it's just negotiating it between the individuals. Thank you, I didn't suggest there was, I just wanted to understand why there was such a long lead in time, but my question was more around the fact that obviously once the appointment panels have made their choice about the candidate that they think is best suitable for the job, we then leave officers to sort out the last bits and the contracts and everything. I'd like to know when the interview, when was the last day of the interview, because the lead in time for this role is longer than what I know to be usual, so it feels like a six month, seven months type of leading, and that would be a discussion between the chief exec and the candidate. There's a conversation about should we not maybe have this information available for those that sit in the appointment panel in order to help them make that decision, because it costs the council more money to have interim in place, and the monitoring officer is, to be honest, is a really, really important role, and we want someone in that role very quickly. So nothing to do with, I have absolutely, I don't know how the panel went, and I don't have an opinion about the candidate or anything like that, so it's nothing personal. I just wanted to understand why we make decisions the way we do. So I understand that the successful candidate wants to relocate, and I think that has. Thank you, Dr. Alachari. Thank you, Chair. Just on a positive note, I just wanted to mention the fact that we've got permanent recruitment in all corporate director positions, I think is important to note, so the fact that George Ishambani has already started, we've got Julie here, David Joyce, we're excited to welcome, and the same as the monitoring officer, as Councillor Baker has mentioned. I think that's a very important step for this administration, this council, and I guess there are other, sadly, London authorities, and even across the country, that don't have permanent members of their corporate leadership team. So I'm really proud that we have managed to secure those positions to permanent basis. Thank you, Chadi. Thank you, Chair. Thank you for the report, it's helpful. I take your point earlier on about the reason for the lateness of it. I do think also the point of urgency, we got this report yesterday, and you're asking us to make a decision on balancing a committee into a decision I think is not ideal, so I think that should be noted. I don't think that's enough time, I work full time, so I appreciate I'm new to this, but reading something like this in a day and getting my head around it would never have been possible, so it's worth noting that, but I accept the point that you made earlier on about it not happening again. I think the thing I'd quite like to know is it strikes me as there's a lot of interim, so I have no doubt, Julie and Liz, you've experienced local government, my first question is, is this normal, the level of interim, I haven't spent a lot of time in local government, so I'd appreciate your insight as I'm sure seasoned professionals in local government, so that's my first question, is your thoughts on the level of interim? Okay, so in terms of interim, the interim arrangements are different to acting up, so the interim arrangements are in place here, are not excessive compared to other local authorities, particularly at senior level, so the point that we have now got a permanent team in place means there is a date for those interims to withdraw, it's not an open ended check, so in terms of the first two, housing and regent, Paul was with us earlier, he is replaced by David starting next Tuesday, so you can see a real removal of those interims, the exception to that at the moment, and it was an exception due to a member to extend the process of recruitment for the director of adult social care posts, because they wanted to see a broader field of candidates, so that was a choice, that's my information, I wasn't party to it, I was told that the field was one that you wanted to see that was stronger, or that needed to be stronger. If I just then go on and say, in relation to other areas, where the post is being reviewed, that means that if it's in resources, there are a whole host of changes we are going to make, it is wholly inappropriate, Councilor in my view, to go out to the market, ask somebody to give up a permanent job, to come to a role that we know is going to change, that role may disappear, it may not be there in the longer term, that's not right to go out and permanently recruit and expect somebody to give up a permanent job for, so the time when you would maintain interim arrangements is during the course of recruiting to permanent ones, or because those roles are subject to considerable review, the ones where they say post and structure being reviewed, all relate to the review around the corporate centre, that a detailed paper was received at the last meeting, so I think it is right and sound practice not to permanently recruit to posts where we remain uncertain as to the scope of those posts, its salary scale, its job title, number of direct reports and today, no decisions have been made about those, there are a number of options being looked at, no decisions have been made and that's why they are interim. Is it any more than I would expect to see usually? Well I think not when there is active recruitment going on, the key of course is when did the interim arrangement or acting operation that's important for members to see, so we should be, ideally we should be retaining staff, so you have fewer vacancies that you need to put intrums into, and we do get intrums, we need to be recruiting quickly and I still feel professionally, if we think that job is subject to change, we shouldn't be going out to recruit to it permanently. That's really helpful actually and I think the distinction between interim and acting up is a good distinction, so thank you for that, I suppose I was a member of the public only a couple of weeks ago and it goes to the point of stability in the council and the perception of the council, so I mean if you're more seasoned in HR recruitment than I am, so if six, seven previously and now one that starts next week isn't a lot, then I'll take that at face value I suppose. It would be really helpful just to follow up question around, you're asking us to make a decision about interim director of governance and extension, a bit more information about that cost that it's going to have on the council, is that the best value option that we've got, what are the alternatives of doing that, I think a simple three, a one sentence three lines on us making a decision, I don't think it's adequate enough to make an informed decision about and a really important role, so I think taking that back, but I appreciate this came yesterday and we're being asked to make a decision today, so I don't next time know I'm going to make an informed decision, but unless you can say otherwise. The only context like director of legal and 151, that's a single full time role, at the moment our interim monitoring officer is not a full time role, she's a part time role, so the additional support needed for a functioning legal service on a temporary basis pending that permanent one joining us was added by agreement for a period of six months, because of relocation, completion of contractual checks, the date with which we expected that individual to start is going to be longer and that's why we're coming and saying, as interim arrangements pending the new full time director of legal who will also be the monitoring officer joining us, so it's today there's two people covering one post, that's why we're asking for it to be extended.

Thank you, I suppose in the spirit of this, obviously we'll vote to make sure that happens, but I hope you can appreciate that level of information is adequate and we have no idea how much it costs on the council, we all know the eyes are on the council and it's important that we are completely transparent in everything we do, so I hope you take that back and feed that back. Thank you, chair. To come back on one point, just to be accurate, the director of adult social care, what happened was we did the first stage of long listing and our short listing got postponed and then cancelled and we still held a meeting in order to decide how we go forward, officers told us that I believe it's one candidate, a category candidate had pulled out and officers felt that we should go back out in the market. In all honesty, like if we had met up before the decision was made, as a committee we probably would have made that same decision, but it's fair to say that and Councillor Kabir Ahmed actually made that point very strongly on the appointment panel that actually we should have, members did not have a say because the interviews were already cancelled, the candidates were told that they are still part of the process, but we are still going out and advertising, so it's important for this committee to also... Thank you. So do you remember I agreed the exception is set out for the report? The last item, the ER and BR service update, I would like to welcome, I think Julie. Yes. Thank you. Councillors, I'm sure by the end of this evening you're all going to agree today was not my lucky day, so John Harrison, who is our director of efficiency who has been looking after this programme, at the previous meeting you notice in the minutes, he described 58 take ups of the ER/BR campaign and we committed to come back to you with a detail of those statements. John is a member of staff who is disabled, he always attends online, he's never not attended a meeting before. He's not able to join us this evening. He has prepared, which you haven't got, a detailed report of all the savings associated against those posts and the costs, and I would ask, give you a choice either, I can circulate that to you tomorrow, first thing, or on your next agenda I can ask John to come in first. We could do both. It really is not like John ever, I'm sure you've all seen him, he's never not on the other end of the screen, so it's very unusual. Before I end this meeting, please note, there are councils collection feedback form. Sorry, can I just read this out on the chairs behalf? There's some paperwork over there. When we leave the meeting, if you'd like to give your feedback, please take one of those, or there's actually a QR code as well, you can just take that, bring your, give your details about today, and on the back of that, there's somewhere, because it's nothing to do with democratic services, I just need to point that out. I believe it's SPP, strategy and policy. So yeah, they're just asking if you're, if you're happy to, yes, if you're happy to fill those out, there's details on the back, and that's it, really. Now I call this meeting is closed, so next meeting will take place December, 12th of December. Good evening all. [BLANK_AUDIO]