Transcript

Good afternoon everyone and welcome to this multi-location meeting of the policy review and performance scrutiny committee. I have a brief few short announcements I'd like to make. So there are no members of the public here joining us in person but if there are members of the public joining us remotely we extend a warm welcome to you. As always we would like to invite any representations or observations our contact details can be accessed via the council's website. Can I request that all individuals ensure that their mobile phones are switched off or set to silence for the duration of this meeting. I'm advised that Councillor Hintry, Councillor Carter and Councillor Bowen Thompson are attending remotely. Currently Councillor Hintry and Councillor Carter are online welcome both to you. As ever please only use your press to talk button when you wish to contribute to the meeting and then please wait until I call on you to speak. When the press to talk button is red your microphone is live. Once you have finished speaking touch the press to talk button to deactivate your microphone. Please do not use the chat facility as it will not be monitored. The hands up button is only to be used for a point of order or a point of personal explanation. Can I also remind all attendees please do not start speaking until your microphone or press to talk button is showing a constant red light. Now does any member of the committee need to leave this meeting early? Nope okay. I'd also just like to put on record that in April so last month we did not have a formal committee meeting but instead we went on a school trip to central transport services which was a very insightful visit for us to visit the front line and to hear more from operational staff and managers it was insightful and we would like to put on record our thanks to all who facilitated that visit. Right let's move on to item one on the agenda which is apologies for absence. I have received apologies for today's meeting from Councillor Leo Thompson. Councillor Thompson will shortly take up a new role subject to approval at annual council as cabinet member for adult social services and as such faces a conflict of interest where she to attend this meeting. I'm sure committee will join me in congratulating Councillor Thompson and wishing her all the very best in her new appointment. I'd also like to put on record my thanks to her for her service to this committee over the past two years. I would also like to extend a sincere congratulations and best wishes to Councillor Jane Henshaw our LORD MAYOR elect. It is quite possible that both Councillor Thompson and Councillor Henshaw are unable to remain on this committee. Councillor Henshaw through her year as LORD MAYOR and Councillor Thompson throughout her time as a cabinet member so we thank both of them. We will now move on to declarations of interests of members which is item two I advise members that they have a responsibility in accordance with part three of the members code of conduct within the council's constitution to notify at the start of the meeting in general terms whether they have an interest in any of the items on today's agenda. A declaration form must then be completed for all declared interests. At the start of the item the interest would be fully declared specifying whether it is a personal or a prejudicial interest. If the latter the member must leave the room if the former they may stay and speak. I'd now like to invite any declarations of interest from members firstly those in the room. Any interest members? No and then finally those attending virtually. Councillor Carter, Councillor Henshey any declarations you wish to make. Thank you. You came up with a blank screen there Graham hoping it would be third time lucky you're still still with a blank screen. If you've got any declarations to declare drop either Mandy or myself an email we'll note that and I'm sure that that will be sufficient. Still showing a blank screen Councillor Henshey might be worth leaving and attempting to rejoin. Right okay whilst that is taking place we will move on to item four on the agenda which is work for strategy 2024 to 2027. Our first substantive item today is an update on the work force strategy. Can I extend a warm welcome to all witnesses for this item? Councillor Chris Weaver, cabinet member for finance, modernisation and performance. Chris Lee, corporate director resources. Tracy Thomas, chief human resources officer and Rachel Ferguson, HR strategy manager. So members I will just set the context for this item of scrutiny. Members cabinet approved the work force strategy 2023 to 27 in March 2023 setting out a framework to ensure a flexible, skilled, engaged and diverse workforce. You may recall we scrutinised the work force strategy in May 2023 and the committee made a number of observations and two formal recommendations in its letter to the cabinet. It is appropriate that we follow up periodically and therefore this is our first annual monitoring of the council's progress in implementing the work force strategy 2023 to 2027. You will note the presentation attached to the appendix one outlines progress one year on reporting on actions delivered under each strategic theme over the past year. Now Councillor you've come back on the screen and you're currently still blank. So we'll take you take you down off the screen because I'm sure the millions of viewers would like to see me outline the background to this item and hopefully we'll get you on online very soon. So before we go into questions I'd like to invite Councillor Chris Weaver as the cabinet member to make a statement to the committee. Thank you Chair. Just going to be a very brief one for me you've covered obviously the background of this. This was a four-year strategy that we passed last year we're obviously one year in. So as you can see from the presentation there's a number of actions that are underway which is what you'd expect over a strategy you're delivering over a period of years. I think we had a very productive and good discussion last May where the committee really engaged with the strategy so welcome this annual assessment and review of progress against it. There were the seven sort of key strategic themes that the strategy set out. The presentation has tried to put action updates against each of those themes. Very much welcome your questions and comments as you review this today. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Weaver. Now we will go over to Tracy Thomas as our Chief HR Officer who is going to talk us through a presentation. Tracy can I just thank you for making the presentation available and placing it in the public domain prior to this meeting. Over to you. Okay thanks very much Chair. So I'll just go through the presentation you've got mostly information there but I'll put a bit of meat on the bones as I go through. So background as it says there it's been developed in line with the administration's priorities and direction that's set by Cabinet and it built on the previous strategy so it wasn't a starting from a start point there was things that had happened previously. The strategy is very much about having the right people in the right place at the right time and the right cost is critical to the organisation. Can we get the presentation up on the screen just so members and those attending remotely can view it. Thank you Mandy, back to you Tracy. And it is obviously it's about achieving the objective set out in strong affair of greener commitments. Key priorities to support high performance enable a flexible skilled and engaged workforce and we're committed to supporting our employees so they want to work for us feel valued and appreciated as individuals. It sets out an agenda actually that is quite important that links or sets out the link between the business financial workforce planning and that is through the development of the direction of delivery plans which actually have those three elements incorporated into them and the corporate strategy is made clear it's about all offices responsibility so it doesn't just sit with HR to deliver that strategy it sits across the organisation. So as you said Chair it was a four-year strategy it was agreed initially in March 2023. We set out that time for an 18-month action plan that takes us through to October 2024. We monitor that action plan every six weeks across HR so I chair a meeting with numerous people across HR inputting into that action plan and there's many actions are in progress as it would be expected 12 months into a four-year action plan and I stress that we're in progress you're not a completion. So as the presentation identified seven areas and I'll go through each of these areas just to explain what we've done against those. So across equalities and diversity we've improved our monitoring information across the organisation through active encouragement of our PC users. We have a working for Cardiff app which is a key app for our non-PC users. We've got a project underway that moves that to a different platform and that will allow greater flexibility within that app and employees to do more in that app than they can currently do and that will include being able to update their equality data. So once we've moved on to that platform they'll be able to do that. We've also got a project underway and we're working with our information governance colleagues to look at how we can get information from people who don't want to use the app or PCs and really want to provide us by filling in a form and then how we get that information into the organisation, input into the system and all that done securely. We've got to recognise this is very sensitive information that people are providing us with. Where a number of actions were completed from the Race Equality Task Force action plan so we've done some lunch and learn sessions with the ethnically diverse network. We've launched and are now completed the first leadership development programme for our cohort of network members. That involved a number of sessions run by senior leaders both officers and political leaders within the organisation and they shared their career journeys with that cohort. We also provided mentors for every person on that cohort, had a mentor and operational manager level. That cohort is also now reverse mentoring every member of SMT so every member of SMT has been paired up with somebody on the cohort. That reverse mentoring is really important. It helps SMT understand what the lived experiences are of those people and we're now in the feedback process so everybody has been they've had a chance to provide feedback face-to-face. They've also had a confidential survey as well to complete. We're now gathering that feedback which will allow us to review the programme in order to make any changes and developments for the future. All five of our employee quality networks are embedded into the culture of the organisation and we've got recognition through a number of external awards and achievements and some of those networks are seen as exemplars so recently our carers network works spoke and through Rachel and herself at the Centre for the Carers Network as seen as an exemplar. We are currently reviewing our equality training offer so that's we've done the first transfer of the completion and we're looking at it we've looked at additional training so we've put in place unconscious bias training microaggression training and neurodiversity they've all been added to our suite of training and we've now set up a project including other services to look at what other training required and what should be mandatory in recent Hadamits in today exactly on that and then finally under this theme we are piloting diversity recruitment panels so we're doing a pilot of that which will be a manual process in order to make sure we know what the process needs to be and then it will be developed into an automated process but we need to make sure we know what that process is before we set up the automation of that but that will mean that we will end up with recruitment panels which will have diversity within them to ensure that everybody everyone's concerns are met. Resource in strategies and this is about becoming an employer of a choice and attracting development and retaining our best talent so as part of our workforce planning discussions we're working with service to identify hard recruit areas and the reasons for that so that we can put additional resource and strategies in place. We've commenced work with directors to look at career pathways to ensure the employees can see where the career possibilities are and we've got some good practice within the organization in places like housing for a career pass so where people can come in as tradespeople move up to multi-skilled and then move up into technical manager roles. We're continuing to develop and strengthen our links with schools, colleges and universities and we're using the really good work that's been done there to actually now begin to link up with our professional bodies as well so places like Sipfer etc. We are looking at our recruitment process and application procedures got project working on that to make sure they meet the organizations and applicants needs so that we're not making sure that our application form is easily accessible and modern and people can access it in the way that they want to and that our recruitment processes cover what needs to be done but aren't overly bureaucratic either. One really important area for me is we're reviewing our exit questionnaire and interview process. That's really important to make sure that we can have we have data of why people are leaving the organization so we need to make sure it's easily accessible at the moment it's a form that gets filled in and then uploaded onto a system we need to move that to fields on a system so that we can then report on it. Workforce planning as I said it's embedded within the organization now it's our part of our planning performance framework through the directory delivery plans. Questions are now being asked around workforce planning with greater emphasis on how budget implications and restraints reflect that on people's workforce plans and that's particularly important sort of this year in our forthcoming years with the savings requirements that are needed to be made and we need to make sure that people are looking at future skills so for example if we need in order to save money if we need to digitalise more services we need to make sure that we have staff who are able to do that and then work with that process afterwards. We're developing data sets to help managers manage their team so they'll be easily accessible and updated on a regular basis. Within the budget challenges we've continued to ensure the opportunity to be available for apprentices and train these across the council. That's really important it's difficult and budgets are shrinking to create those new posts but it's also an important entry route into the organization for people. Work experience we've had to be quite innovative in these areas as the organization constricts people have less time to devote things like work experience so we've been innovative in the way that we do that and moved away from the traditional somebody who tends for a week and sits by somebody and follows them round so we now do things like meet the expert sessions that might be just a couple of our sessions where a group of people were like-minded, sit with somebody who's a subject matter expert and talks around that service do day-long sessions for groups and things like we then do a week-long session for a group so rather than service having one person for 10 weeks we actually can have 10 people for one week so it's a much more sort of efficient process but still meets requirements of the young people that are taking that up and then we've also had our fair work long-term agency policy we reviewed that and made changes to move from two years to 12 months for a temporary contract. And the learning and development manager pathway has been developed and implemented to provide direction for managers with training all in one place promotion of apprentices and trainees of course the whole spectrum that ensures that we get our return on investment of the apprenticeship levy that we play pay and the ability for us to draw down what's government funding we're in the process of a learning and development strategy so we're sure that our learning development needs the organization health and safety training is reviewed to make sure it's aligned to the needs the organization we've got a blended approach for training to ensure that it's accessible for all and that we're looking at timing so an example of that is we've recently piloted twilight English language courses in schools because obviously school staff find it difficult to get release in order to attend training sessions during the normal work and day instead of doing school work and day so we've put twilight sessions on for them. We've provided courses support managers and employment support of young people as we encourage more young people into the organization they come across they provide different challenges for managers so we provided training and development for managers in that and we continue to provide training around the implementation of our policies and we've further developed our Cardiff manager program. Culture and well-being staff engagement program is underway including senior management forum and Cardiff manager forum so senior management forum is about 120 of our senior managers Cardiff manager forum can attract over about 300 managers Cardiff manager forum we do goes online so we can attract as many people as possible to it and those plans engage when events both corporate and directly led to them they the employee survey will be undertaken late summer so we're expecting that to go out around September time we've launched the employee benefits platform which has been very successful very well used and obviously helps people in time of cost of living if we can't pay people more money then obviously if we can find them savings on things that they purchase and then that's a benefit for them as their employee networks are totally integrated in our engagement and we've also done some promotion around intersectionality events and activities for them we've carried out various surveys for staff and we did a major survey regarding hybrid working we've provided session for managers on well-being support services updated our leave policy to provide greater flexibility around bereavement leave and we've provided extensive policy and guidance around areas such as neurodiversity, menopause, carers and deaf awareness still on this area done provide additional training for employers and managers around mental health stress awareness and soft skills we've implemented the connect five mental health training program we've trained the trainer sessions to ensure that the rollout could be as wide as possible occupational health and run sessions for managers on vicarious trauma letting go and moving on so that's through our bereavement, grief support suicide awareness which is becoming more and more important for us support for supervisors on dealing with mental health in their workplace realisation techniques and supporting staff are telling to work after long-term sickness which is again another important area general health and well-being sessions have been provided on the areas there you'll see there's a a mixture between health areas but well-being around finances and things like that as well and we also support the NHS screening programs as they're doing their communications we follow through on that as well workforce contractual developments our hybrid working policy is in in final developments and we're currently consulting on it we are reviewing the council's main employment policies so resolution policies is pretty much there that will then be followed by disciplinary policies we've already gone through focus groups to get some feedback on that we have undertaken our completed work around our job evaluation guidance and making that simpler for managers we are currently reviewing pay and grading structures so we've done a lot of data and we're now working with finance on that obviously any changes to that have to be affordable for the organisation and we've updated policies without to meet legislative changes around care as maternity provision and flexible working on the final theme about working in partnership with our trade union so last but not least we have a revised recognition agreement which includes facility time institutes process and that's in its final consultation with trade unions that includes looking at meeting arrangements to ensure they meet the needs of both the trade unions and the organisation we're building bridges between the trade unions and the employee equality networks many of the trade unions have equality officers and we're putting those people in touch with each other and the social partnerships so it's a forefront Cardiff Council is seen as an exemplar by others in this area and we're looking to widen across the organisation to where is such a city development one planet in equalities and an example of that is that Neil Hamratty the director of economic development actually presented to our trade union partnership meeting on Monday around the developments in the city so it's taken the trade unions wider than just employees of the council and understand what we're doing as an organisation for the city and finally as you've mentioned chairing in your opening statement there was two recommendations that came through from perhaps last time we were here so an update against those is that we are consulting and engaging this taking place with different groups depending on the actions however the the planters to consult with all staff as we as we go through the process and that'll be through the employee survey so we're looking at how we get that as well employee service wide as possible and especially to our harder to reach employees so the ones that tend to be non-PC users and again that's the same then for the second item as well thank you Tracy thank you very much we'll take the presentation down we can always pull it back members if you've got specific questions and perhaps a question from from me Tracy it's an important piece of work significant piece of work for the organisation we're going through significant organisational change we are appreciative of yourself and council weaver and officers for engaging in this this piece of scrutiny now it's our job to seek assurance and monitor this work for strategy and track progress first question then how do you feel we can do that and my what i'm getting at is i believe that there is an action plan that you as officers work to do you feel it would be helpful if that was shared on a confidential basis with members of the committee so we can ensure that there is that assurance there is that scrutiny on implementation of the strategy and i think need to do some work to make because obviously there's a lot of it in there that is in acronyms and you know wording and the way it is is literally a very very large excel spreadsheet that has updates every six weeks from every member of the team so it is a working document i see what i've presented today is the update on the action plan so the actions that we're working on is the update i've provided today so i'm not sure that there would be anything gained from having an enormous spreadsheet that has there's a a lot of information that my members of staff will just be passing on to me there's a normal day-to-day sort of management process what i've done is i've taken that spreadsheet and developed it into this Chris do you want to come in there yeah i mean so i mean i think the document trace is describing obviously that use the practical work and things probably quite difficult for that purpose but i do wonder if on reflection we could go away think of some of the key actions we would expect to see over say the next 12 months provide them to the committee so that you would know what we were expecting to achieve at this time that you would then next year when you do the annual if this is to become an annual review you'll be able to see what progress was made against the things we expected to deliver at this point and if that had deviated we'd be able to talk about why obviously external events can you know cause of reprioritization but that might be helpful Jen i think what you've said there council we've i'm sure i think the whole committee would be much appreciative of that and i suppose what we don't want to do is delve into operational matters we want our officers to have the flexibility to undertake and implement this piece of work but for us as a committee undertaking a piece of strategic scrutiny those updates and link to action points would be would be most helpful and perhaps Tracy you know looking back for you as our chief HR officer over the past 12 months could you perhaps outline for the committee some of the key challenges you've experienced perhaps you and your team regarding the workforce strategy and how perhaps those have been overcome like an interview um i think i think one of the challenges is you know when you set a strategy and a number of actions you want to do those but you have to balance it with the business as usual as well and as the organization changes and goes through the transformation we're going to have to go through and we're going through so you know as budgets constrict there's a lot of pressure on on HR for the business as usual so i suppose the biggest challenge is balancing how do you still do the business as usual and do all the the project work as well that needs to be done um i think you know we've managed to do that and we've managed to get a balance um i think that challenge will continue as we go forward and and i suppose you know it's how we then move some of this stuff out wider as well and get schools involved and things like that as well um so that's really why it was a four-year strategy because when you look at the things we've got to do they were never going to be completed within 12 months and it would have been wrong to set that as a target um but i think my setting as a four-year strategy it gives us the time to be able to develop things correctly um but i would say that has been a challenge i think the organization has been very supportive um and things we've we've wanted to do and that's been shown in the uh things like moving workforce planning into directorate delivery plans um you know that's something the organization has agreed to do um and that means that when we're doing things like performance assurance sessions with managers and with directors then you know workforce planning is part of those assurance processes as well so it's it's you know uh so there's been you know all of those sorts of things um there's been really support from the organization but it is literally just balancing the time and resource between business as usual and they're the moving forward and making things better for the future thank you very much right um enough questions from from me for now we'll open it up to the committee for questions perhaps starting with Councillor Hunt any questions from you Councillor Hunt just out of curiosity what's the curious trauma i know i know what the curious means i know what trauma is i i just don't seem to link together what does it mean just out of injury i mean it's one of the courses that's offered as as you know um as part of our service i just wonder what it what it meant i secondly as well and and then just just two quick questions um if the if the if the problem is are we satisfied i think we said at some point that what we wanted to see was the fact that um as far as hybrid working was concerned that people had the option that they wanted in other words if people wanted to come into the office they they were able to do so if people wanted to work at home they were able to do so and there would be a reasonable mixture of the two are we satisfied that we we're achieving that that mixture and secondly uh the the the the main issue i think i've i've mentioned before and other people have mentioned about um about uh uh uh working from home is that it it's um it's disadvantageous perhaps for more experience in experienced and younger staff who may not have that connection within the office that will enable them to be able to progress and and and to move on and and how will we how are we getting around that thanks to that cancer and Tracy over to you ok so um vicarious trauma is the impact on somebody who is either witnesses trauma or is on the outskirts of trauma so for managers for example so so managers get involved in things not because it happens to them because it happens to people around them so it's around coping mechanisms around those sorts of things um hybrid working i probably answered those two things and those two questions together because they're linked um yes we are achieving mixed um this building is open and every service has the ability to use the building um they every service has a like an area within the building to use um it means that managers can bring people in and staff can bring come in um no member of staff is it's forced to work from home and in the policy that we're developing it's quite clear in that policy that no member staff will be forced to work from home um for lots of reasons and various reasons why people can't work from home um and i think what we're seeing with managers um and i see myself you know seeing it in the last couple of weeks in HR that you know as when people join the organization as they're going through that learning curve they're more likely to be in the office and than working from home um so yeah i think you know we are providing that opportunity um the building is building is not full on any day so therefore there is always the availability for people to attend the office thank you for that indulgence council hands any supplementary well the second bit of my question was was about younger inexperienced staff um and them having the opportunity to engage i obviously there's training that's that's self-evident in the in the program that you presented us but the point we made before is the fact that um if staff are experienced then it's it's fine they can work wherever they want because they they know the job and they understand it but when you're learning the job it's better to be in a collective environment and are we satisfied and happy that we are providing that for younger and and inexperienced staff Tracy yeah i'll take the younger out because obviously inexperienced staff could be any age but yeah you are forgiven on this occasion cancer hunt but yeah um but yeah for inexperienced staff as i said i think what we're seeing is that um managers are bringing in experienced staff into the organization for a training program which is you know the coaching that they require and the support they require from their service and services are doing that we're seeing that within services um so i don't you know people aren't being left at home to flounder and you know it's a very different atmosphere today than it was when we were going through covid and lockdown where we were still recruiting people but we couldn't bring them in and people were having to sort of learn remotely that's not what's happening now what's happening is that you know people are coming in they're learning and then they're being allowed to sort of fly you know on a gradual basis so yeah i'm i'm comfortable with what's happening thank you both we are creating a workplace where everyone thrives which is something we all all want to see i'm now going to bring in cancel hinci who's been trying to get in quite a while um so hopefully this works cancel hinci over to you if you've got any questions i'm advised cancel hinci can hear us and see us but it doesn't appear we can hear and see see cancel hinci cancel hinci to be fair to you if you have got any questions please do pop them in an email um and then i can always read them out um or if not i'm sure our our witnesses will provide responses after the the meeting right we'll go across the table cancel choudry then followed by cancel ash edwards thank you chair thank you tracy for a really comprehensive presentation and it's really good to see all the progress around particularly around sort of uh reaching um i hesitate to say hard to reach maybe underserved sometimes or under reached um groups as well um in in terms of looking at and and monitoring um equality diversity um i'm really interested in uh the intersectionality element that you touched on in your presentation so uh you know during the pandemic for example we saw the disproportionate um impact on uh different sort of ethnic groups we in terms of workforce i think in health and social care we saw how women lost their jobs more compared to men during the pandemic um and then impact you know poverty increased due to some of it due to the pandemic but also due to the devastating policies that we've had from uk government and the child poverty the disproportionate impact of that on women cost of living crisis so i'm really interested in how we can monitor some of the decisions being made around the saving plans and um you know in terms of our workforce strategy how we can monitor some of the um yeah all all different is you know aspects of equality thank you cancer chattery uh tracy okay so um if you don't specifically are savings plans every line on our savings plans requires people to look at an equality in fact assessment so um if people are changing the way their services delivered that would require an equality in fact assessment and that's not just looking then outwardly or how this affects communities it's actually looking inwardly as well as you know is this saving a disproportionate effect on certain groups of staff um so yeah you know that is part of of our process and has been for a number of years um goes back to my first point on the round of quality and diversity around data you know if we're really going to understand how things affect our staff we've got to have the data so we're putting a lot of effort into how do we get as much data as possible to understand it because if we've only got 50 percent of our staff completing their data then we're going to get half a picture um so that's why we're concentrating on that but once we've got that data we can divide it up any way that we want to um we're actually doing a piece of work at the moment we've had a meeting today around some some work that's been required somewhere else around sort of the intersectionality and how things are affecting for a particular group of staff um so yeah so we've got that information and said more value that it would be more valuable if we've got it for a wider group of people but we do look at the information especially as sound savings around the sort of equality impact assessments um i don't know anybody else wants to um okay i know Tracy's response there of course it wouldn't be right or proper for Tracy to denigrate the UK government but cancel either if you'd like to to have your your say on that i'm sure that that wouldn't be probably anything to add on Jasmine's question or uh not particularly i mean obviously i agree with uh cancel charges um summation of the the problems we face um i i think just on that point around the equality impact assessments as well just to reiterate to this committee i think there is a very clear um effort that we're making to make those systematically available to scrutiny committees as well uh when you're scrutinizing decisions we're available they'll be available online for for scrutiny members which i think is a valuable um addition as well to uh to what you look at thank you before we go to cancerous edwards i i suppose this is the case of not just having the data but the application of that data what does it tell us how can we change our ways if if needs be it's good to good to hear that's taking place cancer ash edwards thank you again Tracy for your presentation and uh and i'm particularly challenging area these days in terms of what's happening with with finances and just looking at we've really been through a very tight budget settlement with with consequences to staff in in in somewhere in some areas i wonder if you can just summarize how we've handled that and come and come through um that situation particularly you know obviously it leads to increased pressures on uh staff in in some some areas where there are perhaps fewer and now then there would have been a few few months ago and also sort of looking forwards and bearing in mind that even if we have a change in uuk government we're probably going to have a very uh another very tight budget settlement next next year which may lead to to further consequences for staff we talked about flexibility and things how from this far out really do we prepare ourselves to be able to handle that sort of budget coming settlement in the in the best possible way when it arrives i mean maybe that's a question for the section 151 officer who we we've got here but Tracy it's up to you you can take it or pass one starting then i'll probably pass um so i think you're actually right i think you know when we go through difficult budgets savings there are a number of people that exit the organization and we have to look after the ones that remain as well and that's why we put a lot of effort working around a health and well-being and that's really important as part of so to take for example our voluntary severance process as part of that the business cases that managers have to complete have to say how they're going to deal with the staff and how they're going to deal with the work so for example if we saw a business case it just said oh we're going to work just going to go to loads of other people to do then we'll be asking questions around well aren't they doing are they fully occupied now then um but it's about i think what's what we've got to get services to do which they are doing very well which is actually look at what is being done and how do we do it differently to reduce the note the need for the number of people because if we can't afford the number of people then we've got to do less or do it more efficiently and that's where things like just digitalization comes in so we need to look at processes that are very manual at the moment and how do we move them to make them more efficient but we are support we are providing support to staff and who remain in the best way that we can in regards to sort of the budget settlement going forward um i've lost my track of what the actual question was um you know again how we look in so one of the things we're doing around skills so currently every service is looking at their own service as a review and one of the questions in that the service is being asked is what skills do you need for the future because we need to as we as we move as an organization we need to make sure we've got skills for the future as well and some of that is about re-skilling our staff because what we don't know there's no point in getting rid of one load of staff to create to bring in some of the different skills what we need to do is re-skill the staff that we've got you know we need to stay in the organization have the right skills for the future as well thank you Tracey and Chris Lee to come in briefly yeah just briefly you come so out here would you you absolutely pick up that challenge in terms of the the financial position going forward i guess for me a key part of the work for strategy is work for planning um because because you can almost read budget planning alongside work for planning and i i think that the trick for me is to have effective work for planning that means you are proactive in terms of how we manage our resources going forward given that the workforce is such a large proportion of our overall budget i think what what we would really fail is if we were reactive i think the workforce planning allows us to be proactive allows us to plan our resources more effectively and allows us to to generate and have that agility of an organization that it can downsize or increase in terms of of areas of of potentially where resources become more available but it's that workforce planning piece that is so critical with this i think thank you Chris very briefly because i'm mindful of the time if you want to come in briefly that's that's not a problem now i was just going to say chair in terms of what i've seen from the from the process over the last few months in terms of what's happened that process seems to me to have been handled pretty pretty well this year and i think we we've we've said a good standard in terms of how we go through what could be extremely difficult situation with the council and individual members of members of staff so i think i would say thank you for that i'm going to be like to finish the diamond standard card of council the diamond standard don't quote that against me in the council chamber council either rice um online then we've got council carter so joe will bring you in at this point currently on mute joe try try no can't we're not having too much luck with the webcast today do you want to come back on joe and see if it works now no it's not working um i'm not going to attempt to to lip read you council carter that could end in tears um i'm going to try and go to councilor bowin tomsen and then come back to you council carter and then councilor hintry so bernie any questions from from you on this item we've currently got a blank screen from from bernie as well so um it might be worth you bernie trying to leave the meeting and and try and rejoin um i'm going to go back to council carter at this point then who's showing a speak request no it is not working councilor carter um i think we're talking about work for strategy i think virtual meeting strategy maybe needs uh a review but um it is of course disappointing we've got three of our committee attending virtually it is right and proper that they are given the opportunity to contribute i'm going to ask um i think joe has now left the meeting as has bernie they're going to try and rejoin councilor hintry will try you once more to see if we can get you get you in now we've got a blank screen from from joe we've got a speaking request from graham so councilor hintry will go to you we've got a blank screen from you too i'm going to go to councilor weaver who as the cabinet member might have some pearls of wisdom too no no wisdom to resolve this unfortunately oh dear okay why are you speaking then yeah to make an offer to the members who are online obviously if they're able to submit anything by email over the course of the rest of this week we'll that we will get them full answers in response and because it is important that committee members are able to contribute to thank you that is most appreciated i'm also mindful of the fact we will try and um populate contents for a letter i would obviously caveat that with that there may be a delay in getting something over to you given i i want to hear from all committee members who are joining us virtually as well um right we've got a couple of minutes left um if there are any mystic mags crystal ball readers who know what our three virtual committee members would have asked now is your your time to ask any additional questions bernie we can see you oh we can yeah we're really pleased that's that was a great question should we go to tracy to answer that tracy can we hear bernie yeah right so i just want to when i was getting something to ask um just so you know i'm letting that go in fact or i'm only sounding a bit odd but i'm really pleased with the employee network we're about coming excited in realisation and culture and i just want that i know this we're going to please write an encouraging or confident to disclose because it makes you mentioned really early answer the just question about trying to get more and more people responsive i'm just interested to know how we're communicating we come and start and try new stuff we're going to let them know why it's important and important to do so and the other thing i'd really like to know is what are your impressions in relation to representation particularly with people with multiple protective characteristics um so people with you know intersectionality considerations um so the implementation of the training the training you mentioned in your presentation and in the papers is really really good you know got training on my progress for example um you know a whole variety so just be keen to hear your observation thank you very much bernie over to to Tracy then to to answer those questions okay thanks Councillor bern Thompson um so communication of the network so we do quite a lot of communications through a staff information around the networks um and um one of the things we communicate on a regular basis is what we do with people's data so um we we make sure that people are aware that they how confidential the data is so for example um across HR people can't see the data there are i think three people in HR who can see the data on individuals and they they have to do it in order to be able to compile reports and then we have one person in performance and partnerships they can see the data as well because it goes through onto our management dashboard so we we emphasize how confidential that information is that gives people the confidence to provide it to us they know it's not going to just be out there so an example is um is that when managers look at their staff information for example they can't see many individual data births um so we've removed that from the system so managers can't look at people's ages um doesn't sort of manage around the conversation if they want to have a conversation and it's up to the individual whether they provide that information or not um but we are aware of you know that people find that information very personal so we actually make sure that and that's really what we do around our communication is around emphasizing that and then we do communication around how we use that information to put our data each year and the actions that come from that so it's really important that people see the actions that we do regarding staff retention and people in multiple characteristics our staff retention is actually very good um the uh the challenge you have is any organization is when you give people training and development you're not just training and developing people for your organization but you train and develop them for other organizations as well so we always knew that when we did the leadership development program we may lose people to other organizations but that's not always a bad thing um sometimes people go away from the organization they'll learn something new they'll experience something different and then they might come back to the organization and be able to use that experience to the benefit of the council and so I'm not the you know I'm not somebody who thinks we should just retain everybody and not let anybody go I think actually there's some of our you know our talent good to go out and see things from a different perspective as well as bringing people in from other organizations for a different perspective so our staff retention is okay and um I think you know we've got over like the COVID blip as well where um people were moving around organizations and and that's not the same in the employment market as it stands today thank you Tracy right I'm going to give a final call to councillor Carter who is still in the meeting yes we can hear you councillor you haven't haven't blurred your screen though so well recovered councillor I think you I think I'm sorry about your I just mentioned issues there um I mean I'm to be over which is very positive I'm grateful for the response and recommendations uh it's clearly an awful lot but it's very very impressive and I personally like the emphasis on our trainees and friendships um I called the call your comments about um about where placements actually were interesting we're going to be having waves the whole model of getting to where we have stopped coming in shortly sorry all tears coming in not being paid and as a whole issue of what I recognize if I'm not exploiting your people who would experience I pretty far without change as well um I suppose the question I have is that this also paints a very positive picture regarding allegations with unions we took that being uh it would recognize as best practice in the presentations but we've just come out obviously a very long very long running strike where actually the 31 union was really not on board with a council h.r. policy support at all and brought the city to a standstill at the waste management department at what point so I was wondering with is there a risk that we have all these things are high level and would be policies but actually there's a worker's individual unions might still not be happy with our terms of this within workers thank you cast castor just just to note the matter in waste strategy is subject to an independent uh investigation I believe so we we're not going to go into details of that dispute we um will stay clear of that and we'll go over to Tracy to respond to the aspects of your question yeah I think I think social working in social partnership isn't about just working in social partnership in the good times it's working in social partnership in the difficult times as well social partnership is not about agreeing on everything and it's how you work through disputes um so you know I think actually what do we shows and I've had a conversation with a regional officer for um unite on this and we're we're going to be presenting together um at a conference is actually how you work together going forward um and during that time um so it doesn't get worse and actually you can then move out of it so um I think it is important that you know not only do we work in social partnership with each union but the unions as a whole as well and that's what we did we did through that process so um as I said having good relationships with the trade unions isn't all out agreeing with everything and everything in the the world being hunky-dory it's about how do you work through the disagreements and sometimes you have to agree to disagree on things and be adult about it we pride ourselves on having good constructive relationships with the trade unions it's always good to see and Tracy if you ever decide to run for public office I'll come and be a campaign manager time for Tracy it's time for Tracy um but well of course that's why she'd want me on her side council one um right okay let's draw this item to close then if there are no further questions I think on behalf of the whole committee I'll extend my sincere thanks to our witnesses of course you know the format we will uh compile a letter we'll get that sent through to you in the next week or so but for now thank you very much for for your time we're now going to change over the Tobler owns um and move on to item quick two-minute comfort break for committee um recharge your glasses she's core office strategy city hall update so moving on to our second substantive item today is the city hall update we are joined for this item by councilor Pete Wong chair of the economy and culture scrutiny committee acknowledging his committee's remit for scrutiny of heritage buildings councilor Wong and I have agreed that economy and culture lines of inquiry are relevant for scrutiny of this report we extend a one welcome to councilor Wong members this is an opportunity for pre-decision scrutiny of an update to cabinet on progress with phase one city hall maintenance works the funding implications for phase two works and the completion of the full business case that the council's core office strategy to be clear this is an update and not the full business case which is programmed to come forward in July 2024 and we will seek to undertake scrutiny here at Prab so to present progress to date I'd like to extend a warm welcome to councilor Russell Goodway cabinet member for investment and development Neil Hanratty director of economic development Donna Jones assistant director county estates and Chris Barnet operational manager for major projects so committee can I remind you that appendices one to six to appendix a are not for publication as they contain exempt information of the description contained in paragraphs 14 16 and 21 of schedule 12 a of the local government act 1972 basically confidential information we are unable to discuss in the public domain so what I propose to do we're going to take this in two parts we'll have the public presentation first we'll then take questions from the committee I'd ask the committee to try and keep all questions if they can in the public domain so the public can view and consider these correspondence and then we will move into a confidential session where there is one slide I believe officers need to put before us in the confidential session we'll take questions and we will then discuss the way forward within the confidential discussion on the confidential item only before then returning to a public session so we threw with that mouthful Councillor Goodway would you like to make a statement if I were to make a statement chairman I would merely repeat your eloquent introduction to this agenda item and I'd see no value in wasting the committee's time in repeating that so we can move straight to the presentation thank you for your vote of confidence Councillor Goodway over to Neil Hamratty director of economic development to take us through the presentation thank you chair short presentation just to provide an overview of the report and just to emphasize the point that you just made this is only an update report it's not the full business case and the full business case will come to cabinet hopefully in July and obviously to scrutiny as part of that process so this report covers an update on the phase one works we'll provide a little bit of an update on an application we're making for grant funding and I've purposefully not outlined where we're applying for that funding in the public domain as it's a competitive process and I don't don't wish to alert other potential bidders to that but we can talk about them in the confidential session due course we also it's a technical report really because we need to seek approval to begin a procurement process for a contractor for the phase two works we'll look very briefly at some of the potential options for city all moving forward for its future use and providing an update on initial market engagement and that's not one slide where I outlined some of the conversations that we've had which I don't want to do in the public domain at this stage so that's the that covers the report so in terms of the update the works program it's currently set out in three phases phase one first phase which we've started covers two areas general infrastructure works for the whole building so this is about improving the in particular the electrical capacity into the building to enable us to convert to an electric heating system in the building it requires more electricity than is currently available in in the locality and we're also doing the M&E for for the event venue so that's the what we call the front of the building building split into parts the event venue and the offices in in the rear and works relating to that that's phase one the M&E basically what I mean by that is the the heating system in particular then the phase two would move on to do the M&E for the office area and then phase three will be looking at local ice repairs around the building so and that will include decoration as well so we've made an application for an energy grant for the phase one works we're expecting a decision by the end of this month it said if we're successful it will be a significant contribution towards the works that we're going to undertake we think there's going to be opportunity for further phases because this building is one that is of particular interest and so this report deals with also securing the funding that's required to take the feasibility work to a certain stage to be able you know to demonstrate the detail around the work that we require which is up to Reba stage to design so just to outline a timeline around what we've done so far and what we will be doing in the next period we've we've completed surveys and and created a 3D digital model of the building there's been a lot of asbestos removal from the mezzanine service ducts and I'll show you a picture of that as quite amazing actually to know they they even exist in city although it's quite interesting to see we've done Reba stage two designs for the phase one M&E solution we've applied to the grant which obviously is a bit of a process involved in that we've concluded the procurement for the contractor for the phase one works as I said we're expecting the determination of phase one grant in May and we should have pointed the contractor by the end of May maybe drifting to the beginning of June that's a picture of the mezzanine duct that's above the corridor in city also as you go right around the corridors we got these ducts which you can walk in and they've all been cleaned out now quite an intrusive process really to get that done and there's still there's still some more asbestos removal to do but they're cleaned up now as you can see in that image and then moving on into the latter parts of this year by July 24 we of this this year we hope to have completed the asbestos works and we should have done the Reba stage three designs for the phase one work to enable us to submit the heritage application and we'll start to prepare the Reba stage two designs for the phase two works we will submit an application for the energy grant for phase two works in October we're hoping to have a determination for heritage application for the phase one works by November and that'll allow us to begin the the works proper on the phase one works in in in December and then there's about a year of undertaking those works we do think we can have a phased reopening of the chamber rope and some of the meeting rooms we're hoping to get them open around the summertime if that's possible you know all things being equal and well I know it creates an expectation but that's we're open we're open we're able to phase it in some way and get get those areas open and then we're looking at the full reopening of the event venue in January of 26 the report I'm in particularly in the confidential appendices it covers some of the future options for City Hall and I've just um listed five options here that we can in the process of considering so one one option is I say leave as is that means really that the council continues to operate the the event venue and and utilizes the offices so that's one option that we we're looking at as part of the wider core office strategy and then there's a series of others the council continues to operate the offices but leases out the event venue so the event venue wouldn't effectively stay the same but the the risk associated with the income would be passed on to someone else and we also attract a service charge to help with maintenance costs moving forward we could lease the offices out and the council continues to run the event venue we could lease the offices out and lease the event venue and they that could potentially be to two separate organizations or we could lease the offices in the event venue out to one organization who would want to run them as a you know as a joined up venue so that could be a business conference center with offices and meeting rooms etc associated to it we've had some work done by independent advisors to consider you know some of the constraints associated with some of those choices you know in particular considering what would be acceptable use for the council looking at their heritage constraints and considerations there's a covenant on the building in terms of limiting its use so there's some use constraints some profit constraints associated with that covenant as well and that'll all you know shape what's possible in the building you the the covenant constraints potentially can also be you know reviewed through a land tribunal but that comes with its own risks so the next next step with with that and this we're not we're not seeking the this approval in this report but just to explain that the next step and this will be part of the report that we bring on the on the full business cases to ask for cabinet approval to undertake a more formal soft marketing exercise particularly to uncover that any private sector opportunities and to enter into formal engagement with some of the public sector organizations that we've been in conversation with to fill up their interest and i did have a slide which explained on that conversation before this one but that's the one that's going to drop into the conversation into the confidential i think that's the one after this so in summary then the next steps are this reporting cabinet that will deal with the phase one budget phase two procurement and outlining the city or market engagement and we're expecting a decision on the energy grant in in may also and then we got the full business case for the core office strategy hopefully in july and then it's the confidential session thank you neil right we'll take that presentation down return to the uh committee um first question from me to the cabinet member um cas code weight what is the administration's statement of policy intent in respects to city hall the overriding commitment is to ensure that the heritage building is brought up to a standard and maintained uh in line with the importance of that building um to the heritage of the city and we would explore any and every opportunity to enable us to secure that outcome thank you for that council a good way um i'm sure you would agree with me there are constraints on what we would permit as an acceptable use of city hall for example if i set up a business called joell's vapes and i wanted to put a vape sign on the front of city hall or maybe something dare i say it a little bit more um risque joell's pole dancing for example surely we would not permit the dueling cardis crown to be used in such a way so talk the committee through parameters that we're going to be setting from the outset on what we will permit in our city hall i i'm genuinely surprised that you even um consider those things and um and ventilate them in in a public meeting frankly um because of course that would be the case i mean this is an important building in the life of the city um as there are many important similar buildings across the united kingdom where councils have been forced because of the similar pressures and challenges that are associated with historic buildings of this kind um but i i can see that um you know as the building at the moment is is used for you know a significant amount of uh of events and conferences then that sort of use would be perfectly acceptable to the council that if it was a conference stroke convention center for small-scale small-scale conferences that would generate an income um that would then allow us to have money to plow back into the ongoing maintenance of the building and that would be something that we would want to explore question from from me i you know i think many years i ago i met with the conference and events team at city hall i would put on record they do a significant amount of of good work for the council it's my understanding that when we were operational at city hall they were returning circa a million pounds in revenue back to the council significant amount of of money um can i just seek some assurances from you that you know we will really drill down into the data and the figures because if we're doing a fantastic service within the council that is something that really we want to hold on to and if that is at all possible that is something we will always seek to prioritize well i'll i'll ask Neil to give you the details but i mean you will be aware that despite the considerable income that is generated from the building it was still running at a deficit on an annual basis um and i would sincerely like to eliminate that deficit clearly um because it's not something it's not a cost that really should fall upon the council taxpayer. Neil? Yeah um so we'll get into the detail of the the revenue costs associated with city hall when we bring forward the full business case so you know we'll look at all aspects um of the revenue cost including the cost of making this first initial investment that we're proposing now um and the ongoing future maintenance of the building but the conference center at the moment makes a net revenue surplus of 1.1 million per annum but what what it doesn't take account of is the circa two million of building cost associated associated with operating that building so um it is actually a deficit of um 900 000 per annum at the moment so but right or wrong we could very easily retain the venues the front of house that brings in a 1.1 million net surplus lease out the offices and if we're getting 900k for example we're breaking even well yeah as I showed in the in the slide we look at all those combinations um one of them is the council keeps retains the the event venue and leases out the offices but it's not making a surplus it's it's make it's 1.1 million in terms of the the cost of running the the cost of the staff in the venue and the income that it brings in but the cost of running the building so the utility cost of rates um etc mean actually it's a deficit of 1.1 million not right chris 1 million yeah okay so you know you're right if we could attract someone to take the offices for a million then it it could break even but that's without covering the cost that we're going to have to invest to just get it up to a standard to be able to rent out the offices and also then the ongoing cost of maintaining the building so the rent would have to be fairly significant and that's one of the things that we we're looking at in terms of the various options should be noted that prep committee scrutinize the um believe it or not the price of food at city hall in our budget meeting back in february i think the price of uh fillet beef went up 20 percent on the price list so we are putting up those prices so hopefully that the revenue will will come in um not to say everyone's ordering fillet beef at city hall but in in terms of the strategy then regarding the council chamber uh can you put on record now that uh whatever the arrangements regarding leasing of the venues aspect or office aspect the council chamber will be retained for use at full council the opportunity to use it will continue yes in whatever guys uh it will be up to successive administrations to make a decision on what you state make of the building going forward thank you council good any future administration that i lead will have um the full council at city hall but we will we will be raising forever for that day won't we i don't i don't think that's a relevant consideration for your committee chairman now that i need support at this uh this struggle um i'd just like to finally ask a question on covenant limitations um you mentioned in the presentation that there are use constraints and profit constraints um that's all that's been mentioned are you able to perhaps provide after this meeting a written summary of of what those constraints are and perhaps some of the pitfalls that the council have identified and more importantly how they could be overcome um if that that is is at all possible is it not included in the appendices i think i think it's set out in one of the appendices actually yeah i think that the deep what i'm looking for though is that the detail you mentioned that you can of course make an application to the land tribunal but of course that is a very long potentially very costly process if it's challenged um let me tell you that we cleanse the built covenants in order to build the millennium stadium within 24 hours because the at the time and whilst government has these powers the land authority for Wales had the powers to cleanse government covenants they acquired the built covenants on one day they held it for 24 hours cleansed the covenants and then solded to the for the millennium stadium company so it can be is that an open door into perhaps what we may seek to do here well if if that is a solution that allows us to best protect that historic building which we all agree is important to this city then clearly we will have to consider all options won't we except a vape shop or anything else well um i i can't contemplate any reasonable administration giving a thought to that sort of of of occupy i i really can't um but you know that simply because you cleanse the covenant means that there's an even bigger responsibility on the administration of the day isn't it to protect the building absolutely um so you know clearly these options are in your mind i'm concerned that you're genuinely thinking that if ever you became in a position of responsibility that you would uh you would consider that because no one else has even mentioned it to me i think i think you know thank you for indulgence council good way but what i am mindful of is the the reason we've brought this forward is it's making a loss okay so your focus as you've just said is prioritizing the fact that the council taxpayer shouldn't have to subsidize city also if there was a high bidder the highest bidder was something that perhaps we would not support your put an on record we would not hesitate to say no it is not solely about money absolutely absolutely this is about the future of this building uh and retaining its status uh in in the city scape of of Cardiff um but let me tell you that the the report doesn't only consider uh the revenue issues around uh you know the operational deficits um the more significant challenge is the capital requirement to bring the building up to up to a uh a standard um and when you set that um uh requirement against the council's commitment in terms of um climate change one planet net zero uh making sure that the cities the state is net zero by 2030 or 2040 um you you will understand that that will require an even more significant investment in the building to bring a building of that age um and of that construction into a situation which satisfies those one planet requirement thank you right okay um i'm mindful that council one has to leave early so first opportunity to him no questions no okay uh right we'll go around the room then this time we'll start with council choudry any questions from you council choudry no okay councilor ash edwards any questions from you please only brief question chair really you've spelled out the timetable do you have and clearly i think if i've already said the there's always difficulties in terms of buildings uh or projects like this and the possibility of things developing how uh sure are you at the time table can be uh uh captain i think the the big yeah the the biggest risk i suppose is it's a heritage building and it involves uh an application uh to caddy for the the changes that we need to make and obviously we've been engaging quite extensive discussions with caddy over the last six months et cetera and which has led us actually to have into undertake much more intrusive works and we thought we were going to have to in the first place so that's one that's one of the primary reasons i would say for the the delay that we we in the program to what we said originally so you know i've set out that we we're going to submit the application um that was october christen uh yeah for for uh heritage application and you know we're estimating it it should take three months or so to for that that if it takes six months or eight months or nine months and it's you know that's out of our control so that i think that's the biggest risk really okay can i can i just say chairman that my experience over a long period is that these significant projects are fraught with difficulties and challenges um and over that period times my life has been plagued um by uh the need to go back and explain why things are delayed not least the um the bus station which you regularly remind me of in in open council um they they really are difficult to to predict and in this case i think even greater difficulty and you know i i will say that i did ask my cabinet colleagues at the time not to um go with its original timetable because i was really concerned that we wouldn't be able to achieve it and and we haven't and i noticed in the presentation now we're talking about 2025 when the chamber and the event then you may come back on stream um again um my uh i've indicated to my officials that i think i would prefer to rely on the January 2026 deadline because i'm more confident that that can be delivered than i am of the earlier date if only your cabinet colleagues listen to your pearls of wisdom um council good way it was ever that's true um council afterwards does that answer your questions okay right we're going to go to council hunt now any questions from you council hunt yeah just a couple of points i i first of all i do i i i'm sorry to say that i do have to disassociate myself from from some of your liner questioning i think that's that's very flippant to make to make the point you make and i think it's it doesn't help the the conversation at all it comes the good way and i will probably be the only people in this room will remember of course that um this building was uh was originally conceived of by the first ever first minister who was government as as a home for the um for the assembly as it was then and um it would be interesting to i i just i just think to myself it's fairly academic argument but i wonder what would have happened um given what we know now about the condition of the building um at that time i presume that the the worst government would have spent what they eventually spent on the building uh in in bringing the building up to uh to a certain standard and a certain level but i just wonder if the if the cabinet member feels able to perhaps think about what what what what might have been the consequences of that as i say it's not particularly relevant to this i think kansas good way would would like to be indulge maybe he would prefer a vape shop than the sanne that uh at city hall who who knows well once again you revert it back to that flippancy which i think is as necessary well the the first thing to say gary is that of course um the then secretary of state never actually made it to first minister um technically um the it is it is interesting to reflect i mean a Welsh government officials at the time were uh were in in in our view and in the view of the special advisors we had advice in the council were exaggerate exaggerating the then financial uh liabilities associated with the building um in fact they were saying 25 years ago that the liabilities were about what they are now and you know that's before we've had the inflation that we've had in in recent months um but when the book comes out um i think that people will be uh will become aware that um Welsh government officials never ever contemplated allowing that building to be useful the national assembly because there was a vacant building in Cardiff bay which had previously been occupied by wickser the Welsh health common services association which was costing 42 million pounds a year rent reviews could only go upwards so once that became evident i think we all knew where the assembly was going to end up and that's what happened thank you for thank you for that it didn't end up quite that quickly though didn't it yeah i just want quick questions well how about and this may be in the confidential bit which i haven't had a chance to access no no it's it's it's it's it's if it is then don't answer it now but how how viable is the office space now in terms of occupancy potential occupancy am i able to ask that question i think i think that's a fair question to ask him in public but we won't talk about the nature of course organizations we're in discussion with i think it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to justify investing the amount of capital that would be required to bring those that office space up to the standard that the council would require to meet its climate change and net zero objectives because you could deliver twice that space for half of that cost and therefore i think we would be open to challenge if we were to sort of commit that level of council taxpayer payers money for a purpose that we knew when we made the decision we could um we could acquire for a significantly less funding so i think it's that is the problem that's the child okay so just coming in briefly i accept what you're saying i've got no reason to doubt what you're saying but that's not a really good sales pitch is it for trying to market it to other public sector organizations to stump up the cash to do what we're asking them to do is it i didn't think i was making a sales pitch chairman i was trying to give you an honest assessment of what the challenges are for the council in justifying the investment in in the building for that for for that purpose but Neil am i right in in saying if if we can't get another organization private or public to come in and do this and fund the capital we got to make some very difficult decisions so really we want to be talking this this place up and marketing it in the best best possible way yeah i i think what we what you've got to consider is the various levels of investment that you you make in the building in the offices so you know i think there's there's still a range of opportunities and i think when we come on to the confidential slide you'll see that for some organization the the location you know makes it valuable in its own right so you know it's it's adjacent to some potential users and therefore you know they may be prepared to pay a premium to occupy that space so that's one one aspect um or you as as Russell says you you have more of an as is approach so you know you don't you don't invest to a grade A level you you it remains more you know a tidied up sort of grade B office that might be more for innovation type space for companies on the way up for companies that are associated with conference venues and that kind of stuff so um you know the business case when it comes forward will explore these things in a lot a lot more detail but one thing i can say is for grade A office use and i think grade A is probably what the council would need in terms of meeting our um one planet obligations the it's going to be very difficult to find someone who's prepared to pay the level of rent required to justify the investment to a grade A standard so if it's not us that's doing it it's very unlikely it's going to become a grade A office space i think i think that you know other than the few potential um organizations who need it for location or location um i'm mindful we've got two uh committee members virtually council Carter will come to you now if you've got any questions thank you chair you hear me yes yes we can hear you thank you for the presentation um yeah i've been part of a resource council who has pointed out about a lot of the cost of actually making the building useful and i'm sure there's lots of comments which one said that obviously for himself and Neil is greatly appreciated um but i'm just concerned yes he's in correct perspective uh project there is a balance between heritage to the city that is actually lots of viability and i i do wish the examples deprived of that so it really uh give the the college change where where we're promised to be made in the private sector where buildings have been meant to preserve that's really been partially refurbished and then let down um these design are expensive and um actually i know there are examples elsewhere of course you can think of example the old the county council building on seat ticket hours greatly out of the space office facilities but nearly a set of London uh it's it feels hard to imagine that this is not going to this could be possible without specifically more investment of council money or why is we risk the use of this building if it comes over and let it go to actually maybe this is capturing ourselves the same section let them go to rot which is that which couple of private sector in there the college so there's one question after all that rambling thoughts would be how how can we put together at this case where we actually are paying that the whole building safely rather than coming to a distant town but possibly a bled at the case at this section can't go away well um can i say that the uh the cold exchange was in was in the serious state of dereliction and it belonged to the public sector because it was it belonged to Cardiff Bay development corporation up until 2000 um and at the time government wanted uh this council to take on um responsibility for the building but i refused because of its condition and i think that they sold it in the end for a pound um and you know they've struggled uh because of planning constraints if if nothing else that um you know that uh there there were plans that were drawn up you know 25 years ago that would have seen um sort of residential development at the back of the building the bit that is now absolutely derelict which would have funded the upgrade of the of the building at the front um and and you know the private sector just give up because it's just too difficult to navigate um those those restrictions um and i think that government needs to reflect on the restrictions that it places on on some buildings if they if they want to retain them for their heritage um quality um i think that there are things that we can do i mean i i there's the term isn't it that you keep buildings rather tight and warm which means that you invest sufficient to ensure that they don't deteriorate any further um so that's one solution um we're not suggesting that i think that we are suggesting that it could be possible um to have a greater uh degree of investment in the building that would bring it up to um a certain standard but not not to the standard that the council would require to meet its um one planet objectives i mean there is a um a commitment made by the administration that the council estate has to be net zero by 2030 and if we were to occupy that building then we wouldn't meet that objective um so again it may be uh the administration will have to reflect on on that policy objective at the time in order to find a solution to to city hall but at the moment i am committed to delivering all that commitment i'm also committed to um maintain retaining and maintaining the building uh in in a way that avoids further deterioration um and and let me tell you i i i speak i speak as one that uh the only significant the significant investment in that building since 19 since 1905 was made in 1998 when we had the advantage of the European summiting in Cardiff and there was a sizable contribution from the UK government then into the venue and you you you can see now that the the state of the carpets and the curtains you know that no money no significant money has been spent on that building since 1998 um and that's the that's the problem it's difficult for for us to justify um spending money on those things when we have the wicked issues to address such you know such as education social services the vulnerable and whatever that councils can't escape from um and that's why it's so important um to do what we have done since the the early 1990s and that is to look for private sector partners to sit alongside us um and deliver the agenda that we put forward and i see this building as a component in that agenda and if we can get some private sector or other public sector investment then why wouldn't we do that if you can i i know to what you're saying but my my rebuttal to you there council good way is this has to be taken in the round you know we're sat in a building that was built in what the late 70s early 80s not so early 80s and we're now you watched it being built um i i was not even around at that point you know i'm a 95 baby but you know we're talking about demolishing this building um because it's not environmentally friendly now to me it just doesn't sit right that a building that's less than 50 years old we're talking about demolishing we also have to factor into the round that this council spent 63 million pounds a few years ago on buying the red dragon center something we're now talking about potentially getting rid of as part of the master plan for um redeveloping the bay what we also have to consider is people's working patterns are changing we identified that it wouldn't be possible for city ought to be our only office space destination but given times of change people are working from home working strategies are far more fluid perhaps it's time to review that to see if really if it is grade a that we need and we're the only partners the only organization that is able to do it at city hall why isn't it us that are doing that and re-evaluating whether we need a base down the bay in fact a relocation to city hall prioritizing that grade one listed heritage building what's your thoughts to that well well i mean there is only 35 000 square feet of office space available at city hall that's the problem and the cost of bringing it up to the standard is is you know not justifiable um for 35 000 square feet when you can build 120 000 square feet for less than less than it would cost to do to do that um so that's the that's the issue um and we will require more than um 35 000 square feet going forward even with you know the the new working working arrangements and how long how long are they going to be sustained in any case um you know my again my direction to my officials is that when we're looking at a new core office accommodation that i want to be sure that we provide sufficient accommodation to allow all those who want to come to to work in the office are able to do that that we should not impose on individuals um the position where they have to work from home because their home circumstances may not absolutely may not facilitate that so you know i think again we we need we need some balance but whichever way we think about it that office accommodation at city hall on its own would not be sufficient to meet the council's core office requirement going forward and we know that we can provide that core office requirement for significantly less um then it would cost to upgrade 35 000 square feet and you're not prepared to look at doing both new county hall and city hall based well well that that is that that is one of the the things that we are considering yes but as i said you earlier i think it's extremely difficult if not impossible to justify that level of expenditure on providing office accommodation for you know operational purposes um when we know that we could um we could deliver that for much less um and if we were to make the decision and we went out and borrowed that money in order to bring it up i know somebody that would be reminding me at every council meeting what the extent of the council's borrowing is and how we can justify um you know following that level of money so you can't have it both ways either generally can you no absolutely absolutely not you're right council and we we we we we cannot have it always uh right councilor bowin Thompson any questions from you before we've moved into a brief private confidential session any questions from councilor hinchie as a question come through or okay do you want to ask that question a question has come through from councilor hinchie who's struggling with the ict so council ash edwards will ask the question thank you care question from council hinchie uh why can't we put city hall and mansion hall into a trust accessing external funding such as national lottery heritage and business investment can just go away can you answer that question please well it's something that i would be prepared be prepared to um explore but i think you will find that um national lottery money is not available um to local government for the provision of operational buildings i'm almost certain that is the case but i'm quite happy to go and check councilor says that's true okay oh right all right okay Neil i think um i think we'd always explore that type of approach but the reality is you know and it it just won't touch the sides of the of the amount of investment that's needed to sit in on city or to bring it up to a standard it's um i think it goes beyond the realities of what you you like you to get out of the um the lottery and other potential sources okay uh right any further what's apps come through or no councilor bowing Thompson over to you know yeah we can hear you Verney i am and it's my technology is going straight but um just to say first year we want to um agree Verney a little kind of a good way that is it's uh from the last class um we've come home and i asked a student like a that teacher group of last year you know it'd be important for the in my friend uh the independent money and things like that media actually i you know i just wanted to say with that that approach but for me what it's what English the one part of college can i stand and whether what you think maybe quite a little bit um to term that there'll be a way to take my if the potential partners are requested we've got a couple of pictures and we'll do it um you know for example the gentleman was called away to try to add the more work in fact your partner contributes to his own work and its strategy okay that was slightly fragmented um hopefully councilor goodway is able to disseminate uh the the question um do you need it repeated councilor's way or no no i i think i understood what the councilor was uh was suggesting and and i think the answer is yes clearly um what we you know if we could be if we could be convinced uh that a partner organization could come forward and seriously invest the money to bring it up to a higher standard than we would otherwise be able to achieve then clearly what we would be looking to do is to ensure that um the the length of the lease period allowed that investment to take place and for it to be recovered over the period of the lease um and you know and that could be sort of 99 or 125 years if if necessary as long as the um the provisions of the lease required them to undertake those works to deliver on those works and to keep the building maintained at the standard that was required i mean that's what happens in you know ordinary business life isn't it so um yeah of course we'd be open to to that thank you uh for that councilor goodway any further comments or observations from witnesses before um we move into a private session nope okay i now have to read out a special um statement we are required to consider appendices one to six in a closed session to discuss information deemed exempt in accordance with paragraphs 14 16 and 21 of schedule 12a of the local government act 1972 accordingly i move that committee resolve to exclude the public and press from the meeting at this point members can you confirm that you are in agreement with this resolution thank you we will now pause the webcast webcast is now paused we'll go back to the presentation for the final slide from Neil back we are now in the public session we have concluded item five i will note at this point in my excitement to discuss workforce strategy i did not put the minutes of the meeting on the 13th of march to you for approval so i'm going to take item three at this point minutes i'd like to seek your agreement that the minutes of the meeting held on the 13th of march 2024 are approved as a true and accurate summary is that so moved thank you i will sign that very shortly what we will now do is move on to item six which is urgent items i am not advised of any urgent items today we will now move on to item seven which is way forward i'd like to note at this point for the purposes of the webcast we have agreed the way forward for the confidential aspect of item five which was core office city hall update so we will now go over to Nicola to talk us through item four which is workforce strategy 2023 to 2027 to sum up members observations and concerns and then take it from there Nicola thank you chair okay workforce strategy so this was the first annual monitoring of a four-year strategy and you picked up that this is this is a significant change for the organization having this strategy in place it's important to work and that you really would appreciate them then perhaps sharing the action plan even if it was in confidence with the with the committee the chief human resources officer felt that this was an excel spreadsheet that that didn't lend itself to share them with members that is something that's updated every six weeks but however the cabinet member understood that there there is a need to provide perhaps a list of key actions that they're expecting to achieve by this time next year which would enable the committee to have a benchmark or a review be able to easily review how they were doing on their on their aspirations you asked what had been the key challenges introducing this strategy into the organization they said balancing it with the business as usual i taking things forward whilst maintaining business as usual but they pointed out that the organization has now moved workforce planning firmly into direct direct delivery delivery plans you clarified that vicarious trauma was witnessing trauma and and the kind of scenario is where a manager would witness the trauma caused by um a major event through supporting their staff um you highlighted um the situation around hybrid working and again you clarified do people actually have staff not people actually have the upper the option to work in the office and it not be assumed that they will work at home they said yes no member of staff is forced to work from home and the situation around new starters you you highlighted and the importance of you know the fact that is a disadvantage if you're a new starter in an organization and you uh don't have office contact they are more likely to be in the office um particularly um around training opportunities and what they felt was that um services were more likely to be put in in place in-person training programs now than they previously had done they uh they claimed to have made good progress in reaching difficult to reach groups um and you highlighted about intersectionality and and the impact that that um had been felt particularly by women basically um and and how could we monitor that impact um on women so um they said well all our savings this was in relation to to um budget savings so all savings now require the equality's impact assessment and thus the cabinet member is committed to systematically making those available to scrutiny committees um then you moved on to further to budget consequences for staff um uh what that that felt like to be a member of staff um because looking ahead to 2025 it would be an even further bigger budget impact they pointed out that the importance of well-being and looking after the staff that remain but also they pointed out that where there's a voluntary severance application the business case must look at how how the work will be done and manages to present it accurately in terms of um of how it will be achieved without impacting on the the remaining staff um they said services are already reviewing what what will happen in terms of future budget settlements and and actually looking at they've been asked to look at what skills they actually need um the um section 156 officer 151 officer said that he felt it feels the absolute key is workforce planning that it's very important to be proactive and plan resources more effectively you also highlighted um the issue around communicating with existing staff they made the point about of of all the various networks that exist but what they they were keen to reassure you was that the data held by those networks is very much confidential and um that um for example you know the age of staff won't be immediately visible to the manager um on the whole you commented that you felt this strategy was was basically presenting a very positive picture in terms of what's been done over the last year um you liked the emphasis on trainees and the new approach to work experience hosting work experience um and you did also highlight um the the sort of relationship with trade unions and um and how best to to you know whether it was always positive um what they said was we've learned how to work together and make progress and that sometimes it's it's it's okay to agree to disagree that's what i have chair so if you would like any recommendations to go forward um i mean i i think we put in the two recommendations last year didn't we that were more or less well partially accepted um so i think it might be worth us just reinforcing what we recommended last year because engaging with front line staff is really important there's so much good in this strategy i would like to just see some evidence that staff are directly being contacted it's not just a document that only people who implement it are aware of actually it's something that all officers um and you know not not to meant perhaps particularly officers who do not have access to digigov for example um what what are we actually doing you know there was mention of an app well what if you're not ict proficient work the card of app yeah what if you what if you don't use it a smartphone you know there are still some parts of workforce and groups uh that that perhaps don't have that access so something along those lines if the committee's in agreement yeah um bernie yeah got a uh requesting from from you and we don't think that we don't know but the the question is doing fractionality whether the band could attain it with multiple like the characteristics okay but if it went back to number one training in what would that look such a bit of being all in the community building inclusive input for example of the sex you know so i think it does make some of the what you're playing with more than the general is actually not working as well as that part you've got multiple type of characteristics about anything with the whole area about intersectional thanks bernie that was a bit broken but what what i'm going to suggest is nickel has made a note of what you said in your contribution so i'm going to propose we weave a recommendation out based on what bernie contributed jasmine it's probably related to what bernie's saying um so i think counselor we've said about you know the data disaggregation if we can get some to the committee um some insights into how we're monitoring the data on equality protected characteristics in all aspects of our workforce that would be really useful yeah of course i think we can we can put that in yeah not a problem at all joe any additional recommendations you think we should be putting in uh right okay what i now propose to do if you're in agreement is move on to uh core office item five um city hall updates this is for the public um latter thank you chair so you heard that there has been significant progress on city hall to date but there's still a way to go um and at this point in time five options are under review um it as to the way forward um you asked what the policy intent was for city hall um they said it's to ensure that as a heritage building it's maintained for the city and it to that to that um end all options will be explored as far as acceptable use is a concern um it's currently used for conferences and conventions and they felt that was very appropriate events work well in city hall and it in fact the revenue is around a million pounds a year at present um however despite this the income generate despite that income generation um county city hall would still be running at a deficit because it costs two million a year to run um you clarified that the council chamber would be whatever option is is decided upon the council chamber would be retained for use by full council and the opportunity you know whatever arrangement is put in place the opportunity to use it will be retained um that the project and the way forward for city hall is not solely about money um and however the the capital requirements to um to resolve the the issues is a great is a great concern um you asked how that whether the timetable um was realistic and how how sure they were it could be met one of the challenges they pointed out was that you know because it's a heritage building they often have to um have conversations with cadu and that that can increase the work and both increase the work and delay the program um however the cabinet member member made the point the big projects are always delayed and and are very difficult to predict and in fact he would have preferred a January 2026 deadline rather than um a 2025 deadline um you asked how viable city hall is as office space now um they said that what they they the position they're in is that it is impossible to justify the capital that's required to bring it up to standard and to meet the council's net zero objectives um with uh which would basically open the council up to challenge um the uh the levels of investment um required um is is is quite extreme and um what the business case which is presented in July will explore um is and provide you with is a lot more detail on the levels of investment and the figures involved um and what they feel is that it will be difficult to find a partner that's willing to pay rents at the level that would justify them increasing uh increasing the um investment to ensure it's a grade A office that they're renting out um so you asked whether there's a the full business case um will be for the whole building um so you clarified that um that it and and it will relate to the whole building um but they they made again the the point that it will be virtually impossible to bring city hall up to net zero which is the council's target um so they're presently committed to retaining the buildings um to avoid any further deterioration and a very minimum would be to to um do do the works that have been done and and just heat them and maintain as is as far as the hybrid work in policy and the position of county hall um you know you suggested we we relocate to city hall as as a council but in fact there isn't sufficient office um square footage available there and the costs of doing that would be much greater than a new building for the council several uh members agreed um on the matter of of accommodation and the importance of not insisting on home working um that they're must in the new core office accommodation be space for all staff um and then you asked whether perhaps county hall and and buildings like the mansion house could be put into trust they said they would explore that but they felt national lottery money wouldn't be available to government for provision of office buildings um and then um you you finally you asked would you would they work with a partner um and they said yes if if we could be convinced that that partner would bring city hall up to a better standard um and it would very much depend on the length of lease any recommendations chair well I think one of the things that Russell the cabinet member touched upon was the one planet Cardiff strategy which the council are are entirely signed up to about getting buildings or getting card if council to be net zero by a certain date I can't recall the date but it might be worth putting in there whether you know that the council seeks to explore whether carbon offsetting is an appropriate way forward to secure the long-term future of city hall by that I mean if it is a case where we just don't have the money and it's going to cost a lot of money to bring city hall up to a carbon neutral environmentally friendly standard that we seek to carbon offset accepting the fact that it's not going to become a carbon neutral venue because of the significant challenges because of the age complexity the listing status just as a way to ensuring there are avenues we can explore to ensure that you know shutting it down is is the last possible um option and carbon offsetting is I think something that a number of organizations are looking to do particularly when they've got buildings that are really old and very difficult to bring up to that neutrality standard I'm just throwing it out there as something where the council explore that I'm not saying do it I'm just saying can you look at it yeah I I don't have a particular problem with that but it's not something that we raised during the course of the discussion no but what he what he had raised was he went into some more detail in the confidential session about the risks to city hall that obviously we can't go into detail in the public letter but I do feel that I'd like us to explore you know can the council explore alternatives of securing the long-term future of city hall if a provider is not found in up to and including potential carbon offsetting I will I think Jasmine then we'll bring in jokes I know Jo's got a request and then Bernie I think what councilor Goodway did ensure us is they are looking at all in every option so you know we we didn't go into that discussion so I I just feel a little uncomfortable with adding that really I mean look I I I Jo watch your views well when you are listening I think was they tried the artist it was a very pessimistic presentation because the public and the private is obviously what we can say but I think this is a reasonable thing to suggest because councilor Goodway and my several times this was a major barrier it would be a it would be an intentional solution and as you mightily say it will be definitive if this is what we say we should do but if the council is exploring options and that might one of them but then I think that sounds a reasonable thing to do and I think it's me I suppose I think it's either as much as possible make it clear our commitments as a committee to keep in this building and not just that that's our sort of sense of keeping the building who's said it's physically attacked but actually this building has a lot to do to it rather than rather than partially possible potentially we can't come at the office clock that office parking is I mean look I'm I'm happy to go if you don't want it to go in the letter as a majority view I'm happy to put in that myself as chair and councilor Carter of the view given what councilor Goodway said that all options are being explored that consideration is given to as part of that whether if a provider cannot be found a carbon offsetting is considered as an appropriate means to keeping this important venue open and available for use Gary yeah no I understand that I just feel happier if if you'd have raised it yeah during the meeting I got nothing against the point the point is a reasonable one but I but I think that even if it's a minority view you should have raised it and it's I think I I'm just I'm just slightly uneasy in the concept of of latching on sort of ideas that suddenly have occurred to us well no it wasn't a case of that and you know look I am mindful that we were like 30 minutes over and I was asking a lot of questions so you know what what Russell did say he mentioned one planet that's a fact he mentioned that as a serious stumbling block what Russell Goodway even mentioned was whether the administration would have to review its strategies to ensure we can do all the things we want to do so actually the door was opened what I'm simply saying is I'm not saying go away and carbon offset to save City Hall what I'm saying is if no other alternative can be found that that is something that that could be given consideration I'm going to try to know how to do it and well I can say to myself if I want us to go with him and I find that we would with all the actual opportunities we have to move in because we are brave stuff that we have to offer. It was a good woman but I think the question is the question that I won't be finding. I'm thinking that by not only doing more or improving external community we don't know that it really connects to all the questions that are attending City Hall and it's really important to everyone so just one of the things that came to relation to the component car was behind the running policy bracket and when they looked at the news that they did it just to effectively learn that it's a part of that but they get current of those partners contributed to what to move towards definitions the kind of power that I can't really understand. I did the committee I think we're struggling to understand what what you're saying because the signal just isn't isn't there. I can't understand you but what I am going to say can you please email myself and Nicola I can't I don't know what was said then Bernie what if you can hear me what I'm saying is we can't hear you if you've got views that you think should go into the letter please do email them to either myself or Nicola or the whole committee if you so so choose is that all right okay that's that's noted thanks Mike yeah you've got some views from Graham I've got views views from Graham here sorry I won't could we have details of income £1 million and expenditure running costs £2 million the last five years we should request that City Hall of Munching house should be excluded from our net zero target due to heritage restrictions could we have an independent valuation of the works required to make it usable again as a card of heritage centre agree shutting it down and mothballings unacceptable we should include Munching house and City Hall together I agree with those points entirely I think it's reasonable to request that information Graham is there anything else Mike no okay what I would like to suggest then is that we put into the letter requests for information on the revenue that City Hall was able to generate before being temporarily closed down details of the costs as well for the last five financial years as Graham has suggested Graham's made the suggestion that the Munching house and City Hall be excluded from the targets regarding the environmental targets and that's why I opened the door to carbon offsetting which is where you offset your your carbon so you know I mean to be to be fair to you chair which I always am of course yeah I mean those points were necessarily raised during the course of the the discussion either were they and we accepted those as being reasonable questions the only thing I would say is if you want to include the bit that you said I think you ought to make it clear that you didn't have an opportunity to raise that and that it is very much not the views of the committee but it is it is your views exclusively yeah well I don't think it's my views exclusively I think Joe was in an agreement but if you are happy I'll say it's a minority view of the committee that consideration be given to exploring whether City Hall and the Munching House are excluded from the as as Graham has outlined Nicholas made a note and review considerations given to carbon offsetting Joe is that are you accepting to to that yeah so it's Graham Joe myself I think Bernie wasn't in support that's what I I couldn't hear all of it but I'm gonna be fair to her and I don't believe Bernie was supporting the minority view we'll record a minority view but we will also make the request for the information that Graham has has outlined in his message to Mike right okay I think that we've given that a fair air and committee yeah is that are you content for first to to move on okay right we move on to item eight of the agenda date of the next meeting members finally may I advise you that subject to Council and approval of the meetings calendar for the municipal year 2024-25 the next meeting of this committee will take place at on the 12th of June 2024 at 4.30 p.m. I sincerely hope that we are all back here in June following full council but that concludes the business for today thank you all for your attendance in person and remotely I'd like to formally close the meeting