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Licensing (2003 Act) Sub-Committee - Tuesday 10th September 2024 10.00 a.m.
September 10, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meeting or read trancriptTranscript
Thank you. Good morning, everyone. This meeting of the Licensing Act 2003 subcommittee of
the London Borough of London, as you choose, since five would Grange Road is seven. This
meeting recording will be available after the meeting on the council's YouTube channel.
In accordance with the members code of conduct, the three counselors on the committee today
are required to declare any point of interest, any matter being considered at this meeting.
I have no interest to declare. I have no interest to declare.
Councillor Vaughan. I am a Councillor for that ward, but I have
no interest to declare in that ward, I think. Michael.
I think we have to ask if that is acceptable to you.
I would prefer if the council excluded themselves, Chair.
Right. On the fact that. It could be a prejudice, bearing in mind
it is the ward where my client's premises are. Right. Okay. Can I just take five minutes,
guys, please? Can you adjourn the tape, please? And if you'd like to take a seat, we'll be
back shortly. Thank you. Thank you for your input with regard to Councillor
Vaughan and a possible conflict of interest. We have taken that on board. We have managed
to find another Councillor. She will not be here until 11. So what I aim to do is adjourn
the meeting until 11 once she comes in. We can continue from there. Otherwise, the only
other option would be to adjourn the meeting for a completely another date. And that means
all of us having to come in again to sit and sit for the meeting. So I oppose to adjourn
it. Is that acceptable to you? Could we not continue with two houses?
No, it has to be three for it to be quarantined. Thank you very much. This meeting is now adjourned.
Thank you. We'll see you in our staff. Thank you. Thank you. Would you like to introduce
yourself to your clients, please? My name is Nigel Carter from Carter Consultants, seeing
our client, Mr Hassan Chikla and his interpreter, Miss Carathas.
Thank you. Thank you very much all. Okay. I'll briefly now run through the procedure
of this meeting. The licensing case officer will present their report. We then move to
representation from the responsible authorities, for example, the police trading standards
and environmental health. Members can receive a clarification seeking the applicant. We
have representations today from the police licensing team trading standards, a resident
and has submitted a reputation in support of the application. The license holder then
can present their case. Finally, members may pass resolution to deliberating private and
exclude the press and public, including the parties and the representatives. The clerk
and the legal advisor will remain with the members to provide advice on the procedure
and law. The decision has been reached. The meeting will reconvene and the decision for
sub-lices will be announced in public for the decision sent to the applicant or license
holder, responsible authorities and interested parties, usually within five working days.
Parties who have taken part in the hearing may appeal against the decision to the Magistrates
Court within 21 days. As this is not an administrative hearing, sorry, as this is an administrative
hearing under the 2003 Act, we are not trained lawyers, so we rely on legal advice from our
legal department, today represented by...
My name's Ken Foote. I'm the legal advisor to the subcommittee.
Thank you, Ken. I'd also like to inform all parties that we base our decisions on written
and oral submissions for the minutes of the meeting. Would you like to introduce yourself?
Thank you. If anyone in the chamber wishes to ask a question during the meeting, I ask
them to raise their hand and wait for the invite to speak. I would also ask that all
mobile phones be silenced or switched off. I'm now going to move to the case officer
to present their report.
The members of the Licensing Subcommittee are asked to hear and determine an application
for the review of a premises license for 5 Woodgrove Road, E78BA, and any valid representation
that had been made. The review application was submitted by the Council Licensing Reporting
Team to the Council Licensing Team. This was received on the 17th of July, 2024. The application
advertised for the licensing team by means of notice in the immediate vicinity of the
premises. The grounds of the review are on all four licensing objectives. A copy of the
review application and supporting documents and video footage is attached to the appendix.
The premises holder is funded to the review application via email, a copy of all documents
are attached to Appendix B. These licensing teams may have submitted representations supporting
the review application. A copy of this letter is attached to Appendix C. Training Standards
have submitted representations supporting the review application, a copy of the application
and a resident has made representations of the review application, including pictures,
a copy of their letters and pictures are attached from E. The premises license was grandfathered
over into the new Licensing Act 2003 in 2005. The license holder and DPS has changed three
times last in May 2021 and this is the current license holder and DPS. A copy of the current
license is attached to Appendix F. Members of the licensing subcommittee are asked to
hear the review application, representation of license holder and any valid representation
received from responsible authorities and interested parties and to determine the application.
Chair, a little bit later on a supplementary was submitted by the police. All parties have
received that and it's in your bundle. Has everybody got the…?
Yes, it's wrong, but in the hotspots. And that's the report, Chair.
Thank you. That's a lot of questions. Yes, just some clarification regarding other premises
that sell alcohol nearby and what type of conditions they may have.
So I've got, so we've got a couple of round, it's not in Woodgrove Road where this is
situated. Yeah, that'd be a better idea, I can sort of tell you.
Okay, so this is a map. This premises is situated around the beginning of it. It might be easier
if I take you to the actual picture. So this is the premises in question today, that premises
there and if you go around to, that's to Romford Road, so that's how close it is to Romford
Road. So if you carry on down, so there's no other premises with an alcohol license
so there is our premises in Woodgrove Road, but the closest premises are, you've got,
so it's across the road there, that's probably the closest.
Tesco's.
Tesco's is where?
On the side.
Oh yeah, so you've got Tesco's just up on the other side of the road. It's a bit slow.
The Tesco's is just there, you can see it just there, off license wise, like shop wise,
the closest ones are around the corner.
On the Romford Road?
On the Romford Road, and I'll take you around there now, it's a bit jittery this, it's literally
just around the corner and there's three along this stretch here.
Right, okay.
So just along that stretch there, there's three. We've got 309 Romford Road, their hours
are 10 till 2230 on a Sunday, 8 till 2300 any other days, and they've got all the conditions
on their license, though they've got ABV stuff, miniatures, and that's signal news I think
that's called. If I go along a bit further, I'll point it out to you.
And what's the other one?
There's another two, so you've got, it's their signal news, I just said that to you about.
That's got the conditions on the license, ABV, high strength, no selling in multiples
of two I think it is, more than two, no singles, and then you've got this one here, where's
my mouse gone?
So you've got a sonar, that has got 10 till 2300 hours on a Sunday, Friday, sorry, in
the week, and Friday, Saturday, 10 till midnight. That premises at the current time is under
review.
There's more about that, but it's under review. And then you've got another one, which is,
is it that one?
No, I can tell you that, at the right.
Sorry.
Keep going down, pass the bus stop.
Sorry, it's so during, oh yeah, I've got it there. And this is Greenland supermarket,
which is there. I haven't got no conditions on their license, or very little conditions
should I say. It says on the license that they're open 24 hours a day, but apparently
they're not, because we've done some TPs around the area, and they were closed during the
evening, during the night, sorry.
Romford, they are eight till one o'clock in the morning, and four week, and then on Sunday
10 till one o'clock in the morning.
Can you just take us around to this alleyway, which is the alleyway, where they seem to
congregate? It's down Woodlands Road. I'll confirm. So I think, sorry, this is the alleyway,
or I think it's down there, this bit here. I can't, let me see if I can get you a shot
of it. There, there. I think this is the area. I don't know if you can get into it from another
way from there, or this is the section that the pictures show.
It's my understanding this is the only way through to the flats at the back, and the
back of the shops on that block.
I think so. I don't think you can get to them from Romford Road, or you can, but there's
a locked gate there, or something, or I'm not sure, but that's sort of my experience.
All right, thank you. Okay, Councillor McQuarran, any questions?
No questions, sorry, questions, okay. So for clarification, Colin, could you tell us when
the license was actually, or this premises, when did these take over?
2021, yep, 2021. That was transferred. No change to the license, it was purely just
to transfer the license into the license holder and DPS, and it's under the state.
Is that May 2021?
It was saying the license, but yeah, I think it probably was, yes.
All right, okay. Has anyone got any questions for you, Paul? Nigel, have you got any questions?
No questions, Chair, thank you.
Thank you, let's move on.
Ladies there on the chair, or do you want to...?
Yes, please. No, no, you won't need to show me anything to save on this, would you?
There is a pot of grass on some videos that are related to the statement.
I'd like to take that down, thank you very much. Steve, start with you, please.
Thank you, Chair. I'll just go into the grounds of the review, straight away.
The premises was visited on several occasions in July 2024, to discuss the street drinking
issues surrounding the premises. We're ongoing with the premises holder to reduce the amounts
of high-strength beers and silos available in the fridges, and miniature spirits, which
is attracting street drinkers who frequent the area, and cause antisocial behaviour and
litter and urinating the local area, causing significant stress and concerns to local residents.
On the 9th of July, 2024, the licensing team were conducting test purchasing and discussions
with the business regarding the issues around street drinking in the area. I entered Five
Woodbrains Road and discussed with the staff member who advised and moved some high-strength
beers from the fridges behind the counter. Whilst this was true, I also found a large
quantity of high-strength beers in other fridges and all around the premises on the shelves.
It was observed that the premises had a very large stock of alcohol, including a large
quantity of miniatures and spirits behind the front counter. The main function is clearly
alcohol sales within these premises. I attached photos of the prices of appetizers
for the high-strength beers, which seemed very low in price and is clearly attracting
street drinkers to purchase alcohol from these premises. The member of staff who was left
in charge of the premises and managing the premises had very little or no understanding
on the licensing Act 2003 and the sale of alcohol. He also stated that he had not completed
any personal licensing training. He stated that he had now refused service to street
drinkers and stated that he recorded this in a refusal's book. This was not produced
at the time of the visit. While still discussing issues, a customer walked in and purchased
a single bottle of Corona and went to Tilt to make payment. While standing there, we
witnessed the staff member took payment and opened the Corona bottle with a bottle opener
and placed in a black bag for the customer, who was clearly a street drinker. We immediately
advised the staff member that it is an offence under the mandatory condition on this license,
to which he stated he did not know he could do this and apologised for his actions. This
is a great concern to the licensing team, especially with the lack of his knowledge
and training for the premises staff, and it is clear that these premises are contributing
to the issues surrounding the ASB in the area. On returning to the office, I was informed
by a trading standards team that a recent test purchase was also carried out for an
underage sale in which the premises failed and sold alcohol to a minor, which is a defence
under Section 146 of the Licensing Act 2003. This is a serious concern for the protection
of children from harm and is in breach of condition 2 under Annex 2 of the current licence,
as clearly no proof of age was requested. These premises are positioned within the centre
of ASB issues within Woodgrange Road. A number of street drinkers frequent this particular
area, especially around premises and in the alleyway next to the premises, where a number
of residents have reported crime and disorder. Newham's Community Safety Enforcement team
have also advised the licensed team of several reported incidents, and I include a statement
and some CCT footage, please see attached, from the Community Safety Officer in my report
in relation to several issues of street drinking and ASB surrounding these premises. These
premises we believe are contributing to the issues around street drinking and ASB, and
the premises have no control measures in place, especially for the control of alcohol. Also
with staff working there are unaware of their responsibilities in regard to the sale of
alcohol. We discovered many empty cans and bottles, very much like what is sold within
and littered around the area and can be seen in the CCTV. There are a number of licenses
in this location, however the majority have robust conditions to combat the problems in
regard to street drinking. At present the licensing authorities do not have any confidence
that these premises can afford license objectives. If the subcommittee are not minded to revoke
the license, the licensing authority would like the members of the licenses subcommittee
to consider the following conditions, and I'd rather go from individually, I've just
listed alcohol controls, CCTV, which obviously Challenge 25, where the current license has
Challenge 21, so really just updating them and refusals and staff training, which is
obviously a major factor from what we found. Obviously the statement I referred to as well
is also within the agenda pack there, and if you have any questions then Jason's here
to answer any questions you may have.
Very much. Going back to the shop and your visit, what percentage of the shop would you
say is stocked with alcohol? Say a bunch of supermarkets, so you'd expect a certain
percentage of who?
I would say there's a small selection of spices, herbs, et cetera, that are in sort of the
middle aisle but walking around the perimeter of the premises, inside there's fridges full
of alcohol, obviously there's soft drinks available as well, but also around the other
side there's like boxes and bottoms of fridges and all along the shelves as well, which if
you look in the actual agenda pack there is pictures that I did take on that I'm there
for you to see and I'm sure Colleen can board them up with the CCTV I referred to in the
statement as well.
Yeah, pictures of inside. Thank you. Yes, please. Yes, so it's transparent.
And this is all in that alleyway.
Okay.
Sorry, chair.
We were able to look down the alleyway with the street view, my client disputes that that
was actually down the alleyway, where those little railings are, but that isn't part of the
area.
Right, so where you took us first when I asked you to drop the pictures of that boat?
Yes.
Are you saying that this photo here is where the sausage came from?
Yeah, where Colin showed the entrance of that, obviously Jason might be able to explain that,
but I've been, I will actually visit there. When you see the location where Colin showed the
start of the alleyway leading up, there's a residential block that leads around to the left
and railings, then grey railings lead all the way down. And it's part of the duct for...
The high-speed one, high-speed two, the railing down and then around.
Yeah, you go into the alleyway and it leads on, it basically leads on to it.
If you can see where the green gate is there, look.
It's fine.
Yeah, so what's happening, the...
If you can click on there, I don't know if it goes...
Yeah, the drinkers are getting in, there's a side pedestrian gate, or even the main gate is
often open, and then they'll walk right through. You see at the moment there was, in the time of
this picture, there was bins there.
You might be able to click there, Colin, in a minute.
Yeah, but behind the bins there, that's where those chaps were standing, because that's where
the chain link fence is for the high-speed. It's to protect the vent. If you see the big
building, that big beige building there, look, that's the vent, actually.
That's what that...
They're saying they're going beyond the gate.
That's right. Standing in that private land area, yeah.
Right, and left they go.
Okay, thank you. Would you like to continue with the footage today, Steve? Colin?
What we're waiting to see, we were...
Time is when...
Okay, yeah, we will.
Awesome, we're waiting. So, the types of fear in question is high super strength fears that
was on display. Would you tell me roughly what they were, and how much their percentage of hate?
They had... It's called one class as kapaki, which is 9% in volume, and obviously around the
pricing at the time, but I believe trading standards did revisit to adjust the actual
prices of... Well, that's my understanding. There's K-SIDR, and that's 7.5%. That was also
on the shelves. There's Debui. I think that's about... I think that's nine. I can't remember
off the top of my head, but...
Right, Debo.
There's another 6.5%, I don't know.
H-STAR, which is 7.5 ABV. There's other kinds of... I believe there was a stronger version
of Perla there, which I think it's called Mokna. I believe that was... And obviously,
there was loads of miniatures also available behind the front counter.
There may have been more there, but obviously they're the ones that...
These cans, they're like this size, right? They're that size cans? Like Coca-Cola cans?
No, they're not 3.30. They're normally, I'd say, 4.40 millilitres, yeah.
And looking at the shelf with the pricing, £1.50 for one?
Yeah, that was one of the issues that we did raise. I'm sure that trading standards did
visit to discuss pricing, but obviously you could discuss that with street...
The trading standards.
So in your mind's eye, if you went into another shop and these were being sold,
how much would you be looking to pay for one of these cans?
These cans, you're talking £2.50, maybe £2.60. They do vary. I have to check that one.
£1.50?
No, that is a strong attraction.
You will have the opportunity in a minute. I'd just like to finish with my co-counsellors,
thank you. All right. Now, you had concerns when you said you were speaking to members
of the staff and their lack of knowledge.
Yeah, so obviously at the time then, when we did visit there, the actual staff member on the day
did open a bottle of Corona with a bottle opener and sold to her, which I believe was a street
drinker, and placed in a black bag. And he was apologetic and fully understandable,
but particularly, I don't think he understood that he couldn't do that, because this is for
off sales, not on sale. So it's got to be in a sealed container to leave the premises.
We did have discussions, I'll be honest, my initial intention wasn't to call this in for
review. I was trying to have discussions with Mr. Sickler, and I've called him several times,
and we did have some good conversation in terms of trying for him to reduce
the amount of high-strength beers, move them out of sight of street drinkers, keep them behind the
counter, keep his actual refusal book up to date, and Eddie sort of under a sale recording the book.
And I believe that he did start doing that. But obviously, the premises does have these
high-strength beers, and he's clearly attracting street drinkers. We've clearly seen in the videos,
there's other pictures that I believe that are available as well, where you can see street
drinkers are using the area to congregate in the alleyway and disrupt local residents,
and obviously littering, et cetera, all over the place. Yeah, so like I said, my initial reaction
wasn't to call in review, but because I've found on a day with the staff member opening a can,
open a container, coming back to the office and obviously having trading standards, say there was
an underage sale, which is obviously a serious concern for us, and obviously with Jason's
statement that he's had ongoing issues with this area for a number of months, if not a year,
but I'm sure he can express in more detail, if you have any further questions on that.
Regarding the promotion of paraphernalia at the front of the shop, so you've got
this and stuff, when you walk past, all you can see is alcohol.
Yeah, there is quite a few premises that do advertise in that nature, and that is obviously,
it's an awful licence in a day-to-day sale work, that's not something that I would really
raise any other questions on. But don't you think that has helped as part of some of the conditions
with the glamorisation of ASB by having so much in your face? Don't you find that advertising?
Yeah, I would say, because it's an awful licence in a day, that's what they are trying to do.
It does say it's like a supermarket, but like I said, it does offer other few products, but
I feel the main aspect is alcohol in these premises, yes.
So on your first estimate, since you've been looking into this case, how many breaches
do you think this premises has made? In terms of?
Well, currently, they don't have any robust conditions on their licence, especially around
alcohol controls. They only have sealed containers, so under Annex 2, there was a condition that was
breached in terms of he opened a can of beer in front of officers while we were there on a visit,
and obviously that's a breach of that because it's for off-sales, not on-sales. So that would be the
only one to say beer. But the conditions that I have recommended will obviously stand to committee
members to obviously decide, but I do believe that having imposed alcohol controls would help
reduce the street drinkers in that area even more.
Right, thank you. Now, Councillor Loughton has some questions, thank you.
Yes, and a couple that are sort of tied together. The first is what actually prompted you to
go into the shopping issue?
Well, we had initial issues from community safety, Jason did mention to us, and so we
conducted an operation in Woodgrange Road and Bromford Road to look at all the premises.
So we did visit a number of premises where there was a number of warning letters that were issued
about breach of conditions, and then obviously done test purchasing, and then obviously any
problems we found, we identified where the main problems were coming from, and obviously that's
where Jason's provided a statement. And obviously our visit was to engage with the operator and
trying to get them to voluntary put conditions on, and then obviously we had a sort of effect
of where we had one incident, another incident, and see a further statement from Jason, so
that's why we called these premises in for review.
In terms of street drinking and the problems associated,
how long have you been concerned about the area in terms of street drinking?
Well, from reading Jason's statement, he's been going on for, if not a year or more,
but again, he would have been the best person because he's been dealing with the local residents,
hopefully a clearer understanding, but from our point of view visiting the area,
I did see a number of street drinkers, there was litter rubbish all over the floor,
and it was easily available, especially being open on the corner there, and having a high
number of available high-strength beers and miniatures is quite a large attraction to street
drinkers. Don't get me wrong, not all street drinkers drink the highest drink, but obviously
that was a factor that we did see on the day of our visits.
And possibly finally, Michael's question for Jason, in which case I should defer it,
have you noticed any change in the area since your visit?
Well, as Colin mentioned earlier, I have called another premises in for review,
I won't go into detail on that, but that is a separate subject, but that's for a breach of the
licence, licence activities and time, so that's one been called in, there is another restaurant
along that parade has been called in for review by the police, there has been another premises
that has had a warning letter along that parade in Robford Road as well, and obviously that could
be subject to a view later on down the line, depending on evidence. But since we've been
speaking to these premises, I do believe they have put some measures in place, which they have,
and I've seen that in their supplementary, in terms of the training records, and some of them
were in July as well, which is pretty much from my time on a visit, so it's good to see they have
actually taken that on board, so that is a good measure going forward. And also they've got their
confusion log that they've been keeping as well, which I think they believe there has been
improvement in the area since this review has been called in, so I believe that may have prompted the
actual premises to actually take action, which you can clearly see they have done. At the end of the
day, we're not here to close premises down, we want to work with the operator, premise holder,
Mr Sickler, and like I say, we had discussions, unfortunately just led to these events to lead on
to a worse scenario, but I do really believe that alcohol controls would really help the situation
even more in this area. So there has been some impact on the EDV and the street changes in the
area? Some impact, no change, or? I believe there has been an improvement. Obviously Jason's there
day in, day out, so it might be an idea. If I jump in on that, yeah, I'll see. Sure, sorry, yeah.
Yeah, but from our point of view, I believe there has been some improvement, and obviously I can
clearly see that the operator has tried to put refusals in place and training their staff as well,
which is an encouraging sign to see. So there's a lot of conditions that I have put in my review
application that I've suggested, and well, from what I can see, obviously I have to confirm that
with the premise holder and his agent, but I believe they do want to take some of these on
board. Obviously what ones, we haven't really had any agreement on that, but at the end of the day
it's a review, so the licensing committee will have the final say. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Yeah, I have got some questions, thank you. When you visit the premises, did you see any CCTV
and if there were harm? There is actually a common condition on their existing license where they do
have CCTV, which is condition 5 under annex 2. CCTV should be in operation 24 hours per day and
maintained in working order. So they do have them conditions, but I've expanded that into
our sort of like model conditions that we offer our licenses now, just to bring it up with like
the modern sort of times and our current licenses, especially if they've got a reference to challenge
21 and I've had to challenge 25 to bring it up to speed. The other thing I was going to ask you is
when you entered the shop, do they have a basement or any other storage place where they can keep the
drinks? I'm honest, this wasn't a full compliance visit, this was a visit just in general to do to
deal with street drinking in the area, so it was like look around the premises, look at the issues
around the surrounding area and have a chat with the actual staff and the operators in all the
premises. I don't recall there being a basement, but again that would be a question Doug or Colin
might have it on the actual map. My last question, do you know some of the drinks you have seen on
the shop floor? Are they all from the UK or are they from some of them from abroad? Well, from
my knowledge, looking at that they all had UK markings that I saw, so there was no concerns
from that side, otherwise I'd pass that to training stands to deal with. Okay.
So are there any questions? I've got the second cc if you would like to see that as well.
Just two that were seen. That's it, the two cc, two beers. Okay, all right. All right,
so are there any questions for Steve? Have you got any questions for Steve?
You're saying about the price of the alcohol. Could you confirm whether or not
my client is selling in future conditions C2, which sets mandatory pricing for the alcohol?
As I said earlier, the trading standards team did visit. I don't know how the discussions went
with that, but I know they did discuss pricing, but that would be a question for maybe Khalid,
who can elaborate on that for you. Any further questions?
Thank you very much for that. Is there anything you would perhaps add in support of that?
No, I think it's all covered in there. You did ask for a comment. Has it improved since?
I would say yes. Complaints have reduced to an absolute minimum, and every time I've visited
there lately, I can't even remember the last notice I served there. Since the notice has gone in,
it's really greatly reduced. What standard of time?
It's since the license went up saying that there was going to be a review on that. Since that
effect, yes, literally straight away, yeah, greatly reduced. That's it. I think everything else I
wanted to say is pretty much in the statement, really. Thank you very much.
Just for clarity, you have issued messages. That's right, yeah.
Can you tell me what the difference are and what the outcomes are?
Basically, in Newham, we've got a public space protection order, which comes under that same
legislation. With this alley, pretty much instantly from the footway, it turns into
private land. Then the public space prevention order wouldn't apply. Then we have to go down to
community protection warning notices. Something that somebody is doing or not doing is causing
detriment to the local amenity. In this case, it's drinking or urinating or whatever.
You've recovered this notice, and then what?
So then I'll see a drinker. Then they get their CPW notice. We ask them, Stop drinking, please.
Pour that away,
et cetera. It's causing a problem. We explain what the problem is, why we're getting
issues. Then they were given the CPW. If they persist, I think the CPW will give you seven
days. Then if they're seen again at the location or in the vicinity of what the notice says,
then they would get the community. The first one is the warning, and then the next one is the
community protection notice. That's your formal notice. Then if you do that again, then you will
get a fixed penalty notice. If you don't pay that, then you go to magistrate's court. The maximum
weight is 2,500 pounds. It starts the process. There is a process behind it. What happens,
because I've read your report, and you say that someone has now fixed the boat, how then do you
track that? It's tricky. That is actually tricky, yes, but it can still be done. A lot of people
are local to an area. If they're drinking there one week, then their chances are they're going
to be drinking there the next week. Then they'll get their CPW, and then eventually they get their
fixed penalty notice. That's pretty much it, really. If they've got an unpaid fine, they can
have an arrest warrant can go out for them. It won't be too hard to track them, really.
All right, okay. How long have you been sitting there? More than 10 years. In that particular area, how long has that been?
Yes. Historically, I think there has been problems there over the years. My personal involvement
began pretty much December 2023. We got complaints from residents of that situation, and then we had
to assess it and find out what the issues were. This is where it's ended up today, basically.
Thank you. My last question. Considering the proximity of this particular premises and this
anyway, do you believe the majority of the paraphernalia, beer cans, etcetera, fountains, anyway,
comes from that particular premises? I do, yeah. Not the one 100 metres down the road? No.
Okay, thank you. Councillor McQuana? I can have that. Okay. Yes, please, please.
I'll just ask you, you said when you approach a street drinker, what is their behaviour like?
I know they're coordinating the mess in the street, otherwise... It really varies. It could depend
on how much they've had to drink already, what their current state of mind is. It really does
vary. In these particular cases, when I've served these ones, most of these ones were pretty
agreeable. Perhaps I've caught them at a certain time, but then I'm a uniformed presence. So bearing
in mind, my concern here is the residents. So if they're coming back on a dark evening as a lone
female, and they've got to walk past half a dozen drunken males who've been standing there drinking
all day, then they've got to get past them to get into their gate, or a woman with a buggy and a
small child. And there's men urinating. So this is why we're doing what we're doing, basically.
But it's like I say, going back to your question, it really varies. Sometimes I could get swearing
and all kinds of nonsense. And other times, they'll apologise and say, Yep, yep,
and pour
the beer away. It's good. Thank you very much. Thank you. Just one from me, and it's just to
clarify. There was a question on the alleyway. They were saying that didn't represent what the
video was showing. If I call it out again, do you know where they were standing, these people?
- Yeah, that's literally right. As you walk in, that's the railing on the back bit, just in front of the vent. You could probably see signage. I don't know if you could pull that up. - I just wanted to clarify. - Yeah, so you've got the front main gate, which is for the vehicles.
- That's the one that goes across. - Yeah, so the main gate is supposed to be for vehicles.
- Yeah, so the main gate is supposed to be for vehicles. But quite often, because I said that alley is actually accessed for the flats above shops on both sides. And now there's a housing development also being built in there on the left-hand side, which is a further nine flats. So really, all in all, you're talking over 100 people have got access in and out. So the security of closing that gate, it's problematic. - No, I get that. But when you looked at the CCTV... - Yeah, so that would be the beach that was sort of slightly rounded. That's right, yes. If you go to the bottom of that, yeah, those bins have now been removed. And yeah, and those guys were standing in front of the chain link fence, which has been put around to secure the event by the railway people. So that's where that is, yeah. - That's the communities.
- Yeah, it's not public. It's just ingress and egress for the residents, yeah, or their authorized visitors, yeah. - Colin, have you finished? - Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think there was a question, but I just want... It wasn't... Yeah, when I saw the CCTV, it didn't look like that. And there was a question, so I think we needed to clarify this is the area, the question, where they're standing. - Yes, okay. Thank you. - Yeah, Mr Pearson, you said that you think the majority of the beer cans come from this premises. - Yeah. - Can you just elaborate on that? How do you... - Most of the brands seem to be foreign-named brands, which I haven't seen in other shops locally at that location, if you were to look in Iceland or Tesco. That's the way it's there. Most of the drinks that I've spoken to, I've either seen them myself coming in and out of the shop, or they've actually said that they go to that shop. So that's pretty much, yeah. - You can identify them as street drinkers, those purchases. - Yeah, oh, without that, yeah, definitely, yeah. Yeah, I've said in the statement, my honestly held belief is that they're getting the alcohol from there. I think the Times as well, that's one question for myself, when I've had complaints from residents as well, what is the current closing time on the off-licence? - Two o'clock in the morning. - Two o'clock in the morning, so that sort of ties in with these drinkers. They might have been in the alley till very early hours of the morning, which doesn't seem to tie in with the Times that you mentioned of the off-licences locally. Not to say that they couldn't have that.
- You're right after him, I just have to... - Can I just object to what's being said here?
- Okay, what's going on? - So there's no evidence been produced to say what Times these incidents or the recordings is. So to then allege something about what's happening when my client shop is open and others closed, there's no evidence produced and I think should be discovered. - Thank you. Liguen? - Okay, there's a couple of points that Mr Pearson has made. - So we're going to move on from that shortly. Okay, thank you. Any questions? - I have a question. The alleyway that you go down, I presume you've been all down that alleyway and to the right, can you confirm that there is an access from the station if you go to the right, you can get into that alleyway? - No, you can't, it's a dead end on both ends. - Okay, I haven't been there. Okay, that's fine, thank you. - No more questions for police. Thank you. Right, just for noting, Marina said we've received a petition and we're in support of the premises. I counted 105 residents, which none have turned up today. Colonel, you're next to submit to your supplementary. Would you like to add anything to that? - No, I mean, there's my initial which is a supplementary where the heat map was attached. Now, really, I'm just, I'm going to talk to Jason about how the police are obviously working with your local council officials and our concerns do relate mainly to the safety, public safety. There's the public nuisance as well, but public safety of non-female or females with children may have to pass or shrink and may be subject to abuse, not necessarily, it doesn't always happen. But even as Jason said, it might be disturbing especially if they've got small children, so that that is our main concern. But we are pleased to, there has been a positive response from the police. I understand that, you know, what they did previously was wrong, so we're encouraged by that. - All right. Colonel, would you like to just go through your supplementary, please? - The heat map, yeah, the main part is actually just over the next 20 seconds. - All right, okay. - We don't have any reports from that area. In fact, it's the private, private, not public. Possibly that, but if not, it's fair to say we don't have any reports from residents in the area that they've been complicating that private road, so it does seem that the main way is across the road, post office approach, that sort of area. - Okay. - So the whole of the, there are, as Nick alluded to, the whole area has been identified as problematic by the local SNT. There's a restaurant around Fauna where there's, which is subject to the review, and opposite that, there's other problematic premises. So that particular Upton Lane with Grange Road, Rumpford Road, that whole area is noticed as being problematic. - All right, okay. Legal, I wanted to mention, see what I said, on a review. - In place, or is it? - It's in place, yeah. - Okay.
- No. - But it's not in the papers, is it? - No. - Hmm. - That's fine. - Yes. - It's a conversation. - To review, we can, that's fine. - So that's the fact that we would support the [inaudible] in the review application. Please, we'll support those. - All right, thank you very much. - Thank you. Any questions? - Go ahead. - One regarding your sort of, is this, yes, what sort of things are happening in each of those jobs? - And social behaviour covers a wide range of things. Some of them, the worst ones are criminal, but most of them are civil, and it can be just nuisance, as you know, when you're standing around drinking, and interrupting the pavements, or you know, something like that. And then you might get them, people who are abusing, shouting at passers-by, you know, abusing them, or throwing cans at them, or stuff like that. So basically, it goes up from there. But that is the basic thing, or you know, just people who, you know, [inaudible] or whatever. So it does cover a wide range of incidents, but I would argue that even the basic one is just a group of males or females standing around drinking would affect the well-being and policy of life of local residents. - Yes, so we're not particularly looking at violent crime or night crime. - That doesn't have to be violent. It's mostly it isn't. You know, they may say that they just want somewhere to stand and drink, or sit and drink, or whatever. So they don't, you know, they might shout at passers-by, or whatever. Sometimes people have mental health problems, you know, and that comes out when they run. So stuff like that. But no, to be honest, it's not often violent, unless it's then fighting between themselves. But generally speaking, you don't get many incidents where they attack members of the public. - The sorts of things that you and Jason have itemised earlier. And the other thing, the question I asked before, has there been any change in the area, or maybe even across a year, what sort of changes have there been in absolute constant? - There's been fewer incidents. I know that Matt chose the year. I did try and get it through a monthly one, but I believe the number of incidents recently have been reduced in the last months. I mean, that's up to June, you know. So in the few months before then, the number of incidents have reduced. - Any questions for Matt? Thank you very much. Moving on. - On the 30th of June, and I was conducting an operation with police, and two police cadets were sent in to purchase. Two police cadets were sent in to buy alcohol, and two kind of salamander were sold from a woodbench in the market. I did no questions, both for aid and for any form of identification requested. Only money changed, and it's helped to replace, shortly after, myself and the police officer returned back to the woodbench in the market. We spoke to the seller, after our college seller, and we questioned him in relation to who I had sold. We tried to get his side of the story, if any questions were asked, and obviously he struggled. I'd say English was his first language, and he couldn't deliberate what he was saying. So I did a question in relation to Chinese-25 refusal log. At the time, he didn't show much knowledge of what that was. When I requested for the refusal log, I wasn't really given anything either, and when I was asking his name, obviously the normal protocol, date of birth, address and phone number, he was struggling to tell me his name. So I wrote his first name down, and the second one, he had to write it down himself. So he struggled to take the information and requested a visit. There was some signage up for Chinese-25, but obviously the police were right, 15, 16, and they were delivering it, and obviously there was no question asked. Just to reiterate, in fact, what happened on the date. I've just seen on page 32 of the report back, it might not be 32, but it's numbered, 33, so it's 33 on the pack.
- This is the register? The refusal register?
- Yeah, it says on the 30th of June.
- Nothing there.
- Yeah, 2024, a gentleman that's put his name there, a staff member,
he's a staff member that made the sale of alcohol on the date. My notes state that we went there
about 2/12/37, and obviously the sale took place, and in that log it says 12/30/3. He refused
his sale, so the sale would have been fresh in his mind if he's serving. He did refuse his sale,
it obviously doesn't typically say exactly what he refused. It just says 30/06/43, staff member.
If I can name him today, that's the way it stays from there. He refused his sale,
but the same log on the date wasn't produced to me that he had filled in maybe 15 minutes
prior to me coming in. He did have that two-hand for me, but I can say there was a little bit of a
language barrier. If he knows what refusal is, he's been given training on that through the
training record, he should be able to establish whatever the future log is. Hence, there's no
questions asked, and I thought it was probably what he needs from the information I wasn't
able to produce, hence we supported the review today. Just to go a little bit further, on the 10th of July, 2024...
Hold on, sorry, one moment. They said sufficient new evidence, isn't he?
Yeah, it just sounds like it's new evidence. Yes, I'll leave that out.
Yeah, unless you get the permission or the accessibility of the items, I'd rather it stays out.
Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's the end of my...
Right, okay. Councillor McManus, if you have any questions for...
Yeah, just thank you for your report. Our main concern is, you know, when you said that
Alka was sold to someone, when you made the test purchase, payments, were they made by CAD or cash only?
Payment was made. Yeah, you will see the test purchase.
And what about the customers, if you look for customers there,
are there customers in the shop as well at the same time?
I think it's a sale, the police is opening it's a sale. Yeah, there's always customers in the shop, but we obviously
simply have been there to buy Alka. Kids, that person's there.
All right, okay. That's fine, thanks. Yeah.
Was this the first test purchase you've done since 2020, particularly premises?
It was a refusal of Alka on the 26th of February 2023.
That was 24. One day something about was in 23.
That was the refusal you shocked me to. Yeah, that's the only one since then until now.
Did you not say in your record that you had great concerns
with regards to what was happening in the shop, with the poor record keeping expert staff training,
but it's never been brought to your attention really before now, what's been happening in and
around this shop? No, I mean I was, I need to rephrase that. Okay, so until now this very time
you've never been highly concerned, this has never been brought to your attention, this particular
premises for anything. Not much. So your idea of the price of the definitely Alka-Hole, can you
give me a little bit of, was like on the shelves over at 150, 160, 170. This would be your day,
wouldn't it, as trading standards to make sure that they're priced properly?
I mean it will come back to get some new evidence. There was a visit done after a non-compliance
notice led potential minister Sigler to provide invoices from the wholesalers or the suppliers
or the suppliers you've purchased that Alka-Hole to date we've not received and documented then.
Right, so you never saw any invoices or anything to where they've purchased them?
That's where we are, that's the information. That's why we haven't received that yet.
Okay, any questions? So I'll go to the authorities first. So
any questions at all please? No? Any questions? Right, thank you very much. Please.
Yes, certainly. I know it's not in the fact that it has been referred to as the visit that I think
was on the 10th of June. July is it? It's not clear and it says about the hands and privacy
and asks about invoices but says on there you'll be visited again after seven days
if the matters have been corrected no further action will be taken but the non-compliance
we recorded may affect frequency for the visits. No visits. Two actions. Okay, so where was that?
So where did you get that from, Jason? This was sent to me originally in the fact that I received
solid invoices. It was sent to me originally in the fact that I received solid invoices.
From trading standard. Please on it.
No, that was sent to me. It wasn't in the pack when it came through.
It didn't take long to know.
Further action, which should be.
Supplementary. It's at the back of the supplementary on page 70.
So you've got one supplementary. Oh, sorry, it's not supplementary. B, sorry. In the pack.
An XP. Sorry, I thought it was a supplementary. My apologies. I believe it's the one that's been
redacted. You have all the pictures of all the alcohol and it's the last page and I believe that
is from trading standards officers. Trading standards. I'm only referring to a letter that
I can see online. It's actually number one. I thought that may have been the one.
Actually, this will come from whom? Trading standards.
Yeah, actually my colleague, my boss, George, said I don't know this and the feelings provide
several days to provide this document to me. The invoices
at the factory this morning have not been received. And they were received?
Not being received. Not being received.
So what would the normal format be if they had not been received by us? What would be the first?
Yeah, we'd have to go back. We're really in terms of staff and initiatives that we're dealing with.
I've got operations. This one was actually issued, was it on the 6th?
Right, okay. Something to put on the dime.
Yeah, I've met my colleague.
Right, you had a question.
My point about it, if it says you will be visiting my clients,
somebody would come back and produce it. Nobody came back. Just in case he's failed to produce it,
nobody came back to look at the documentation that was requested.
Right, okay. If only he could have always sent it in. But he could have always sent it in, surely?
Like mine, but it says you will.
I know, I know.
Because if it says you will, nobody did visit.
Okay.
Somebody should have turned up to.
Point taken, thank you.
Any other questions?
Yes, what's actually happened here?
This question was for Sarah, I have not seen it.
Well, it's just, I didn't see the letter.
The word exactly how it was is not in clients, which is completely standard to the client.
It's not to be confused with some information.
Yeah, yes.
And it was definitely not in the paper.
Right, okay. All right, anything, Ken?
All right, lovely.
Right, I'd like to hear your report. Thank you very much for your questions.
Can I just hand in, this is the, I did notice that we handed in the actual
trading and refusals log, and then we have details of it, and I was told it could be accepted today.
Yeah.
Sorry, Shannon, I'm not sure we've mentioned about the resident, I'm not sure.
I was going to come back.
I mentioned that earlier.
No, the resident herself, not the petition.
There was a resident, yeah.
Okay, so all right, before that's on, we had a representation submitted by...
Page 75?
Page 75, the lady named,
was named, that's what you can say, and she has made accusations, and she has submitted
the representation against the premise of the license order, and the thing that's been happening
around here that she's seen, so I think everyone has seen this, which is on page 75 of the agenda.
There is one question, she's not here today,
but there's one question I'd like to ask you, Jason.
You've met with Sadie.
I believe so, yeah, can I just have a quick...
Oh, I'm sorry.
Oh, no, no, okay, yeah, okay.
Yep.
And have you actually read her letter?
Can I give you a little moment just to read through it before I start with...
[inaudible]
Yes.
[inaudible]
Yes, that's fine.
[inaudible]
Right.
I'm aware of that complainant, and I've probably seen that letter, actually, yeah.
So there's just one question. From what you've read in her letter,
do you deem these as facts and is true to your knowledge as her own?
Yeah, yeah, I'd say, yeah, yeah, on my visits and what I've witnessed, yeah.
[inaudible]
Okay, thank you.
Right, have you any questions [inaudible]
Any questions for Jason Binardi?
Okay, all right, thank you.
So let's request, shall we?
Chair.
Good afternoon.
Members will be aware of the information before them
that there are some elements to this review hearing.
The first and most serious instance of underage sale of alcohol
to two people on the 13th of June, 2024.
The second and also of concern for the alleged sale of alcohol to street drinkers
resulting in antisocial behaviour in the vicinity of my client's premises.
With regards to the underage sale on the 30th of June this year,
I'll begin by saying that my client has no excuse for this,
can only apologise to members that this incident took place.
Whilst not wishing to make any excuses for this,
he would like me to explain the circumstances under which it occurred
and the measures he has taken to avoid any repetition.
Mr. Savlov, a member of staff who carried out the sale,
is not usually employed to serve behind the counter.
His job is to stack shelves and fetch stock from the cash and carry.
On this particular day, a member of staff who was meant to be on the till
had failed to return from a trip abroad
where he was undergoing urgent dental treatment.
And as a last resort, Mr. Savlov was asked to step in.
My client realised this was a serious error of judgement on his part.
Mr. Savlov advanced the necessary formal training
in relation to Challenge 25 to ensure that such illegal sales did not take place,
and for that he apologised to the subcommittee.
Whilst this is in no way an excuse for the underage sale,
I hope that members will take into account
the actions which he has taken to ensure that he holds such an incident in the future.
Mr. Savlov was issued with an award or letter in relation to this offence
which members will see on the last page of Appendix B of your report,
whereby the needs of the firm and the structure of the agency
to check the age of customers buying alcohol if he failed to do so.
Also included in Appendix B of the committee papers
is evidence that Mr. Chikla, Mr. Savlov and another member of staff, Mr. Atabinin,
received training from agents in the last seven weeks of this year.
He's dealt with Challenge 25, the four masters and adeptives,
and a licensing position for quick launch of the premises.
Mr. Savlov and Mr. Atabinin have also undertaken additional training
and were both awarded the Level 2 award for personal license holders
in the second of August 2024 through high field qualifications,
and that is shown in the first few pages of Appendix B.
Both are currently in the process of submitting an application
for their personal license to new and relaxed,
or in fact I believe those applications have already been submitted.
Mr. Chikla believes that now his staff have been trained
to the standard of personal license holder,
the risk of another underage sale taking place at the venue
is certainly minimized, if not eradicated.
I hope members will agree that whilst the underage sale is regrettable,
to say the least, my client has taken swift action
to ensure that no such incidents occur in the future,
and I ask that you be given credit for this
when determining the outcome of this review hearing.
I would also ask that this be treated as an isolated incident, not the norm.
As you heard, there was a previous test purchase undertaken in February 2023
with my client, the supremacist license holder,
when no underage sales were made.
As you said earlier, Mr. Pavay's representation at Appendix D,
whilst supporting a review hearing based on the underage sale,
highlights issues of concern, which if you mention were a failure
to implement age verification policies, inadequate staff training,
and poor record keeping.
In each incident, my client has taken prompt action to remedy these issues.
Members will note again at Appendix B of your report
that Challenge 25 posters are prominently displayed in the office.
Staff have received training and age restricted sales,
as well as legal obligations under the Licensing Act 2003.
I've also included copies of pages from my client's refusals log,
which demonstrates the staff are refusing sales of alcohol
and part of age restricted products on a daily basis.
I've also brought the training manual and refusals log with him,
which I have made available to you.
Together with the personal license holder training,
I believe my client has taken all reasonable steps
to mitigate the concerns raised by Mr. Pavay's,
and has demonstrated he has taken proactive measures
to prevent illegal sales.
I also ask members to note that CCTV now records for a minimum of 31 days,
and bottles and cans of beers and ciders are labelled
to show where they were purchased, as shown at Appendix B.
Moving on to the statement from Mr. Pearson at Appendix A of the report,
whilst I don't dispute the contents of his statement,
I would argue there is little or no evidence to contend in it,
which directly associates my client's premises
with the antisocial behaviour referred to.
Mr. Pearson states that he had cause to visit the area,
which is close to my client's premises,
on several occasions since the 25th of January 2024,
and another of Section 43 warning notices were issued.
He also says a total of 60 individual complaint reports
have been made in relation to the antisocial behaviour.
Again, whilst not disputing this, we have no record of these complaints,
and nothing which would suggest that my client's premises
were the cause of this antisocial behaviour.
Indeed, up until the time that my client was informed in July,
I'm not aware that anyone from the council has been in contact with him
to bring these concerns to his attention.
Despite what I say is a lack of evidence to support his assertion,
Mr. Pearson states in the final paragraph of page 2 of Section 9's statement,
and I think he referred to it earlier,
it's my honestly held belief that all the drinkers
that have received formal notices at the location
have purchased their alcohol from the store.
In my 14 years experience as a police officer,
including as a licensing sergeant at the council's police station,
and the further nine years as a licensing inspector
within the city of Westminster, an honest held belief is not evidence.
Furthermore, no relevant statement to those people
issued with Section 443 warning notices
provide any evidence of where they purchased the alcohol
or brand of alcohol they were drinking,
or what time of day the street drinking occurred.
Page 3 of this statement, in support of his allegation
that my client has overnight all four licensing objectives,
he cites that the window display, which I can tell members
has now been changed as a new window display,
and again at a very bit speed,
after the outside front is an environmental cue to chronic alcohol.
He states that in fact there is much research to support this,
which doesn't provide any type of research to back this up.
While if I accept that advertising,
especially on TV, can encourage both adults and children to buy alcohol,
I don't believe the picture my client was displaying
would encourage private drinkers to buy alcohol from his premises.
In fact, if it says offices above the door,
it's sufficient for anyone to understand alcohol.
Spiersons also included photographs
onto the door of the representation included at its tenure.
Firstly, photographs clearly show the brands
of alcohol sold by my client, and which is not disputed.
There is one photograph which shows a discarded can
of Black Storm cider with an ABV of 7.5%.
The difference being that it's been bought from the range supermarket
by a street drinker and discarded.
I would ask members to study the photographs
produced by Mr Pearson separately.
None of them show my client sells this brand of cider.
However, also at appendix B, you will see photographs
which I took at Sinhalese News and Off Licence,
located at 309 Point Road, which is just around the corner,
a distance of approximately 100 liters,
which you saw earlier on the map.
You will see that Sinhalese does sell Black Storm cider,
as well as several other high-strength beers and ciders,
similar to those sold by my client.
I find it odd, to say the least,
that Mr Pearson failed to mention these premises in his statement,
and I'll leave it to members to make a new inference for this issue.
Another photograph produced by Mr Pearson
shows a spinach or leaf of some sort, dilated in a pipe.
Again, I'm not sure Mr Pearson is trying to show here,
and this is alluding to the fact
that someone may have urinated in this alleyway,
but there is no way to tell.
Final photograph, which shows an open can and a bottle,
are, I can only assume what Mr Pearson refers to,
discarded cans and miniatures.
Again, it's not possible to say what brand of alcohol the can is,
and the bottle is certainly not a miniature.
It's far too deep to compare it to the size of a can.
Again, there is no evidence produced to show where the alcohol is produced.
Members will have read one representation made by a resident,
at Appendix E of your report.
I mentioned that only one representation was received,
despite the fact that a community meeting
was held with residents on the 25th of April.
2024, 60 individuals were made,
as referred to in Mr Pearson's statement,
received from residents living at the location.
We mentioned my client's premises as the supplier of alcohol,
in these repeat defenders,
which only one resident made a representation in support of Mr Pearson.
Nevertheless, the resident is rightly upset and concerned
about the level of antisocial behaviour in her neighbours.
She faces a lot of blame for this on a number of the licenses in the vicinity of her home.
Whilst she asserts that the reason they choose to avoid to litter and urinate from private land
is linked to being able to buy cheap alcohol from my client's premises,
I would suggest the main reason they loiter in this area
and cause antisocial behaviour
is because it's a large open space which they can gain access to throughout the day.
She is also unable to provide any evidence
to show the alcohol being drunk at this location originates from my client's premises.
As I said earlier, the client's environment is set in law in the mandatory conditions.
There's no evidence that my client sells below the minimum price allowed.
There are a number of photographs produced by the resident
showing the area of private land located between 13 to 15 Woodgrange Road.
Most unfortunately do not show the time that these photographs were taken,
not from show of the date.
Furthermore, several show people loiter in this area,
but in three of them there is no alcohol being drunk.
In those where alcohol can be seen,
it's again impossible to say what brands of alcohol have been consumed
or where it has been purchased.
There are a number of premises where alcohol can be purchased,
as you've heard, and Mr Pearson mentioned two of them in his statements,
Cheshire at 28 Woodgrange Road and Iceland at 4 Woodgrange Road.
The resident also cites the fact that Woodgrange supermarket is open until 2am
as a contributing factor to the antisocial behaviour she has witnessed.
Today my client is licensed until 1am Sunday to Thursday and 2am only Friday and Saturday.
This would be relevant to the antisocial behaviour referred to
if there was any evidence it happened late at night.
Again, Mr Pearson's statement lacks those details,
with no times being shown as to when the interactions took place
and no evidence of times in the photographs produced properly.
Mr Pearson's belief that my client's premises can be sold
provide for so-called super-strength beers and ciders,
which in turn results in antisocial behaviour witnessed in the area,
does not bear scrutiny.
Firstly, the discarded can of black swimside was not shown in the photographs of alcohol
sold by clients and sold by a nearby op license.
Secondly, none of those issued with Section 43 warning notices
were providing any evidence to show they bought alcohol from Woodgrange supermarket,
even though presuming it was issued by council officers when the warnings were issued.
Thirdly, the photographs produced by Mr Pearson provide no evidential value
in his effort to prove that Woodgrange supermarket
is the cause of the antisocial behaviour, literary and military he refers to.
It appears that the date at the bottom of page 2 of his statement that, and I quote,
The can that the drinkers use are quite distinctive and are not the brand's types seen on sale in Tesco or Iceland,
both in Woodgrange Road. If he fails to say what those brands were, fails to show any photographic evidence to support this, the one can that has been identified as black swimside is not shown in any photographs produced from inside my climate supermarket but is sold by the nearby op license. Again, I would respectfully remind members that an honestly held belief is not evidence. Mr Pearson has failed to provide any such evidence to support his allegations, neither his statement or within the photographs produced. He asks that members of this licensing subcommittee revoke my client's premises license based on unsubstantiated allegations that he has undermined the four licensing objectives, and I would ask members not to grant this request. The police have also supported this review application and the statement from Mr Stoads at Appendix C of your report. He relies on the statement of Mr Pearson, which I maintain. Neither contains evidence to support the allegation, neither my client's premises are the cause of antisocial behaviour, or that he is undermining the four licensing objectives. Whilst the supplementary representation is submitted by Mr Stoads on the 4th of September, in the formal heat map, I again would question its relevance in evidential value. Mr Stoads asserts in his statement that the heat map relates to a period from the June 23rd, June 2023, until June 2024. But this is not noted anywhere on the map. We have no way to know that this is the time period produced. And the main point is, as he said earlier, there is nothing showing any antisocial place in the vicinity of 13 to 15 Woodgrange Road. Whilst it appears to show that everything I've named seven incidents of antisocial behaviour, there is no way of telling how many occurred in Woodgrange Road itself, and it looks like, if the red circle is meant to indicate a higher number of incidents, than most occurred in Romford Road. I would ask that members apply little if any weight to the heat map, as it fails to provide any actual evidence. It certainly does not demonstrate that any of those antisocial incidents were related to my client's premises or his selling of alcohol. It does, however, show that an antisocial behaviour is prevalent in the postcode of E78BA. My client is fully aware that new and miscounciled license and policy allows for the revocation of the premises license in instances where unlawful underage sales have been proven. My client is truly sorry for this unlawful sale to minors, and I believe he has taken the necessary and appropriate steps in order to prevent any such incident occurring in the future. All members of staff are now trained to personal license on the level, and have received additional training in premises license conditions and age restricted products. You have the training and refusal slotbook in front of you, which demonstrates that staff are operating the challenge 25 policy and are regularly recording with sales and refuse. To revoke his license would cause serious hardship to Mr. Chikla. The premises would have to be sold, and this would result in three people losing their jobs and five of us. I respectfully suggest that to revoke his license will be disproportionate. In this instance, a more alternative approach is available to members. It was application for review of this premises license, Mr. Steve Jackson, the senior licensing enforcement officer, does suggest that an alternative for revocation of the premises license would be to place additional conditions on it. He then goes on to provide a list of conditions for members to consider. If members are likely to accept his suggestion, I would ask that not all of those conditions proposed are added, only those which are relevant to the underemished sale. We are happy to agree the CCTV condition, the challenge 25 condition, refusal to book and staff only conditions, would suggest that the other conditions are not necessary in light of the evidence, lack of it provided by Mr. Pearson. I respectfully ask that only conditions which are necessary to prevent further underemished sale should be considered, and this review should not be used as an excuse to add a raft of conditions which will make it harder for my client to operate profitable business. He would also accept a condition known as beers or cider above 7.5% or 6% proposed by Mr. Jackson. I believe I have demonstrated that other than this one instance of an underage sale and the instance that Mr. Jackson refers to when the bottle was open, my client promotes the four licensing objectives. That Mr. Pearson, the police and the residents having my submission failed to show a correlation between my client's off-license and the antisocial behaviour in the vicinity. In my submission, the fact that Woodgrange supermarket is located close to the access road between 13 to 15 Woodgrange Road where antisocial behaviour and street drinking is alleged does not in itself link my client's premises to this behaviour or sales of alcohol to these people. It's an unfortunate coincidence. City members will note, and the chair referred to it, we've submitted a petition signed by over 100 customers, none of whom live in close proximity to the premises. Supporting Mr. Chickler, I have a positive role that Woodgrange supermarket plays in the community. I believe this demonstrates that my client in the main promotes the four licensing objectives and should be given the opportunity to continue running his business and operating under premises license for the sale by retail of alcohol. Thank you. Thank you. Um, yes, okay. Right. One thing that particularly struck me in your presentation there is that there have been sentences taken a number of measures to conform, you might say, or to adhere to the licensing objectives. There's been the training. You've got now two personal license holders and a DPS. You've got refusals, the fusals book and very alert to the training manual and they're very alert to the 25. Now, we've also heard from the officers and the police and so on that they have noted some reduction in the street drinking in the area. Now, do you think there's any correlation with what the premises have done or is that coincidence? I thank you, Councillor. I would imagine there is a correlation between the two and the fact, as Mr Jackson said, there are reviews happening at other premises in the facility in Rothford Road as well. Like anything I could say, I was a licensing officer in Westminster. If you start taking enforcement action against licensed premises, you tend to find that there is a reduction in antisocial behaviour and crime in the vicinity. It doesn't necessarily mean it's gone away completely. Sometimes it's displaced to other areas. But certainly, yes, I would say that there is a correlation between the measures that we have put in place and the reduction and what's happening in other premises as well. The measures have assisted. I believe so, certainly, Councillor Haynes. Could I now just go and ask Mr Chitla, could I ask you, what's your perception of street drinking in the area in the immediate vicinity of your share, what kind of sense, how you perceived it? (Speaks in foreign language) Sorry, my voice has gone last night. (Speaks in foreign language) He doesn't like seeing the street drinkers. He doesn't believe in it. When I do come to him, he does try to sway away. But if I don't come to him, he says they'll go to other shops. It's not something that's just... (Speaks in foreign language) It's not something he accepts or believes in and he tries to sway away from it, which he can. Has he noted or seen street drinkers near the premises at any point now or a few months ago? (Speaks in foreign language) He says he doesn't ever allow street drinkers around his premises, but right next to his shop, there is a betting office and they tend to then go around that area upstairs. But outside, like if he was to see anyone, he would tell them to leave or let them know. Because it's not a good sight. It kind of breaks his part in his house. And may I just... Yeah, I was just going to expand on that a little bit. It's certainly the case that people are buying alcohol and then going to the betting shop. And then they'll come out and they'll drink. They'll leave their cans there. There's a telephone box outside. They'll leave cans on their head. But these are being purchased from Mr. Chipler's supermarket. They've been brought there and people go to the betting shop and then left in the vicinity. - Or from where anything.
- Or wherever, yeah.
- And do you have any... Is there any conflict with street drinkers? Do they come in and insist on being sold or having alcohol sold to them? How do you relate?
- (speaks in foreign language)
- (speaks in foreign language)
- It's like a particular for old men that come in. Like it's not a lot of people that come into the shop like are street drinkers. It's like the same for people. But ever since he's tried to decline in there, there hasn't actually been conflict, but he's declined there a lot of times. And I think they've kind of given up. And now they're really begging somewhere else.
- They've given up.
- It's been like, yeah, I've swayed them away completely because they're old as well. Like he feels bad and, you know, street drink him. It's just not it.
- Okay, thank you. That's time for me.
- The actual question, thank you. I'm going to ask Mr. Chikla these questions. Obviously, you can translate it for him. But does he understand by challenge 25?
- (speaks in foreign language)
- (speaks in foreign language)
- He says he has a lot of status. If they look younger than 25, he will approach him to ask for ID or passport. But sometimes because he's aware of like, you know, nowadays teenagers use like fake IDs to, you know, get alcohol and cigarettes. He would also like test them by asking them if they feel like they got any questions from their ID because they think it's like your home address. He'll ask questions, see if it matches 'cause sometimes he catches them out on the fake IDs and then he just would have stopped them. He just helped him stow away.
- Okay, and how many staff does he employ at the premises?
- (speaks in foreign language)
- There's three of them.
- Are they all full-time or part-time?
- (speaks in foreign language)
- And does he know, is he aware, does he live locally in Newham or does he live outside of Newmore?
- (speaks in foreign language)
- Okay, so is he aware of the schools in that area? Can you name me one or two schools in that area?
- (speaks in foreign language)
- Yeah, the shop is.
- (speaks in foreign language)
- Yeah, he said it's not in the name but he knows one school that he's (indistinct) like one school, which is obviously a pro-skate school, which is downward. He says, well, he doesn't actually like to know what is sports but he says he doesn't wear like one school. (speaks in foreign language)
- And where does he normally buy his alcohols from?
- (speaks in foreign language)
- Well, that has a certain category.
- (speaks in foreign language)
- (speaks in foreign language)
- But just these big households.
- Okay, that's why, thank you.
- (speaks in foreign language)
- Most times I get the alcohol catch and throw a lot of license, that's like the number one place that they always go to.
- All right, thank you.
- (speaks in foreign language)
- All right, thank you. Nigel, can I ask, when did you meet your client for the first time?
- I would believe around two months ago.
- Two weeks ago.
- Two months.
- Two months ago.
- Two months ago. And could you tell me how many times you visited the shop and the area, had time to look around and see what you saw, sorry.
- (speaks in foreign language)
- Okay. So the three visits that you made to Woodgrove Road, Bumford Road, Forest Gate, what was your feeling of what you were seeing and street drinkers of sleepers?
- I'll be honest, Chair, the times I went.
- What times were they roughly?
- It would be late afternoon because that's when my client would like me to attend. So I would say four o'clock, between three and five in the afternoon.
- And you saw no incident. And what about, you mentioned the telephone booth where they put their drinks and stuff, but you mentioned it earlier that-
- Yeah, that's something that my client said.
- That he told you, but not what you saw.
- Not that I saw, Chair.
- So just give me a second.
- (speaks in foreign language)
- Yeah, it was at the morning or-
- I believe that gauge is not, perhaps Mr Pearson will be able to confirm that.
- It's supposed to be locked all the time, yeah, but I see something will leave you open.
- Just with the little boys literally swinging on the gate, so-
- Yeah, I see. It hasn't got a functioning lock. Actually, it's got to have 24-hour access for emergency vehicles. So that's the problem for getting it locked. So, yeah.
- Mr Sickler, can I just confirm that your nationality is Turkish?
- Yeah.
- And you speak English?
- Yeah, it's quite good, but it's a little serious.
- Yeah, he speaks English.
- It's actually not.
- Does it look like I cannot understand you? You sound perfect.
- I don't understand, but-
- You can speak English, tell us.
- So this matter is very-
- It's important.
- Good product for me, for my family. So that's what I bring perhaps later.
- So tell me, the day that the licensing officer came in and done that check with the test purchase, and the gentleman that served him was which one of you?
- They're called Sone.
- Sone.
- Yes.
- And he's one of the part-timers, or is he a permanent member of staff?
- Part-time, and then normally he's not working the team.
- No.
- And because he can't speak English, he's wrong.
- So was he the only person on site that day?
- Because one person has left the job, and I was bringing another person after one shop was closing down.
- Mm-hmm.
- That time.
And then one guy was, because the shop is closed down,
that guy was ready.
I said,
Okay, come work here.
And then he was needed for his job. And then he's working in the shop many, many years. I was training that guy to work a little bit, one, two weeks in the middle, and then check the price, check what we're selling, checking price, after that I was going to change to the model. - That's when he came in. So on that day when Sunay was serving, where were you?
- I was there.
- He was there?
- I was there.
You know the funny things?
I was there.
I said,
Sunay, stay here and go cash in and come back.
- Right. So that's when the whole incident--
- I was there.
- Right, so that incident happened there and then.
- Before that, I was there.
- So obviously you recognize that you are responsible, okay?
And whilst you was away, why did you not say to Sunay,
Just take money for groceries, do not sell alcohol.
- I told him.
- You told him?
- I trained, but because he's not, I gave training, but he's not working all the time. When something happening like emergency things, you know, I don't know, there, something happening, like we keep it like short hours.
- Right.
- Normally I can't, he can't work there because he can't speak English.
- What language does he speak?
- Does he speak Bulgarian?
- Bulgarian.
- But Bulgarian and Turkish. And he cannot write as well. He's got to, but he's not suitable for that period.
- No, no, of course, because that's why all this has come to light.
- I think that these things, we read that one.
- So let's move on to the street drinkers. Thank you for that. And I understood you perfectly, okay? All right. Now, you say you don't see many street drinkers. We've looked through your refusal registrar, the one that started on the 14th of August 6, 2024. And apart from the two agencies, every other single one was beer that they were asked for and a street drinker, and they refused the sale. And I've noticed that all the writing seems to be same on every application we've made here. So whose handwriting is next?
- The guy doesn't write, he's not writing like us.
- All right.
- It's a different alphabet. That's what I told you. If you refuse something, write your language here.
- Yeah.
- After, I will write it.
- For you?
- Instead of you.
- Right, okay. So this is all your handwriting?
- Yeah.
- Yeah, I was watching some of it.
- That is my one, my one as well. And then he repeated it because he can't write. He can't write the Latin alphabet.
- He can't.
- I told him, write a piece of paper.
- No, that's fine.
- Your language, after that I can write it.
- That's fine. But as I was saying, after the one, two, three, maybe eight, all of the refusals were street drinkers. You've got street drinkers, drinker, refuse, refuse, of course. Now, considering you say there's only four that really comes into your shop who are older men, I think there are more that come into your shop than just the four men. Is that-
- At the moment, we can see the end of the book. Now, they know we don't sell and then nobody will sell.
- So you're telling us today that no street drinkers come into your shop?
- At the moment, no. And not coming to my shop, they know we don't sell and then there is no more street drinkers.
- Okay, so who are you selling the 7.5 strength drinker? The 9-point strength beers? Who are you selling these heavy duty drinks to?
- This one? Normally, all people buy this heavy, like school cup, actually. It's a 9% drinker. Normally, all people buy. And still drinking, don't drink that kind of beer because it's expensive. And then if they're drinking all the time, they're gonna get drunk. But these people, some is like, don't get drunk, like want to drink all day. Like getting tipsy all the time. They don't think so. They're drinking before they get drunk. They're drinking like before getting tipsy past the time.
- Okay, all right. So how much is a tin of Apache? Apache?
- Apache about nearly two pounds.
- Two pounds.
- Two pounds. Two, three pounds. But on your shelves here where the prices are, they range between one pound 50 and one pound 70. Could you explain the discrepancy for me, please?
- Yeah, you know, at that time, I think I bring it from Kashi Karaki.
- So you bought it from where?
- But it's right in there, maybe that price, but when you go into a tin, then you scan it.
- But that's not good, sir. You can't have one price on the ledge and then another price in the tin.
- You know, because the staff make a mistake, I think.
- But that's your job to monitor your staff.
- With the working and the leaders.
- Okay, right. I've got any more questions for you. Right, you mentioned that you go to some of the people's cash and currency in London. Great, fantastic. You came here today and thank you for showing me your new training. That's really impressive. So have you bought the receipts, the invoices that Trading Standard asked you, said that they will come and collect from you? So you bought this for us to see? The invoices for the drinks. I would have thought that you would have bought everything. You said it was a very important meeting today, but you're absolutely right. And you've bought this training manual, great. So you've not bought none of your other stuff, like the invoices where you buy from the cash and carry for the lager?
- I have no invoices in the shop. I have a box every day. What is I make shopping, bring the things, I put my invoices there. I have no invoices over there.
- But you didn't think to bring it today?
- Well, I didn't know, you're going to ask about it, because I was waiting for the who is going to want to come into the shop and check. Somebody coming to the shop and check.
- Great, thank you very much. So just so I'm clear, Nigel, going back to the conditions that sell Steve Jackson, if we are minded to plant this and not we folk, I think. Would you just go through it again, which ones that you agree with and which ones you don't?
- Sure. All right, so the first one, beer, lard, and starter, salve, and solar, and we should not exceed 6% ABV, we would ask 0.5%.
- Sorry, is that for any specific beer or larder, or is it general?
- That's general, beer, lard, and lard, yes.
- It's not a particular one.
- No, no, no, no, but that would allow us to sell it. There is a demand, and we're not denying it, there is a demand for people buying 7.5% alcohol from the supermarket. It might be--
- But if we're going on that note, then I would have to ask, why have you got so much alcohol? I mean, for people, or just old people, could not possibly consume the amount of alcohol that you've got on your premises at any given time.
- [speaking in foreign language]
- [speaking in foreign language]
- Any of the stocks, it's just what you guys can see inside the shops, like a stock in the back, or like any more alcohol, you know what I mean? Like if they sell it to yourself, but he's not really fussed about it.
- [speaking in foreign language]
- Sorry, say that again.
- [speaking in foreign language]
- Yeah, he's saying like if you have any stock, or like more alcohol in the back of the shop, it's just like what you can see as soon as you walk in. If it sells to yourself, it's not like really, you know, he's not going to get out of the store.
- No, I don't have a stock or anything at the back.
- Okay, all right, thank you. So please continue.
- Okay, so there's a query that's got to be sold in bottles of less than 35, 62. We wouldn't agree to. Like I say, there's no evidence that the miniatures are an issue. Again, bottles and cans appears largest outside, as alcohol should not be sold in packs with no less than two. We wouldn't agree to that, and I would respectfully suggest it doesn't actually solve any problem. If somebody wants one can, they will go with somebody else and say, give me your one pound, 52 pounds, and we'll go and buy two cans. If you said four cans, they'd go and buy four cans together. They'd pull it and they'd give each other one can. So it really doesn't make a difference. The other thing is if somebody goes in and picks up a can of beer, that's two pounds, puts it on the counter and gives my client two pounds and walks out, they've reached the condition. He can't actually physically manage that properly. People can just walk in and put it on the counter and take it. If they pay the money, the purchase has taken place. If he starts getting into an argument about it, he's then putting a threat to him or his staff about it. A lot of people just go in and say, please not a can, two pounds and they'll walk out.
- Please continue.
- Four products, we mark on the label and mark and state in the name and postcode. In the shop, we've been demonstrated we are doing that already. It's not the name of the shop. We put five in the postcode. That's sufficient to know that it's Woodgrain supermarket. And that's been in place for three or four weeks now. I think that we've done that. So we're happy to do that. Personal license holder to be present on the premises four times now that we have three.
- Now there'll be three.
- Yes, we're happy with that. Outside permitted errors, it's not relevant unless members remind me to change the times. I would ask that they're not changed purely on the basis that there's no evidence that a timing class license is relevant to the allegations of anti-surgery behavior. It would also be have to buy in lockable cabinets. So unless, I mean, I will say that it's not a relevant condition. A written record should be kept of instance occurring. Yeah, we're happy to do that as well. CCTV system, happy with the hold of that condition. Happy with the hold of that condition. Perfusals book, happy with the hold of that condition. Star training, happy with the hold of that condition. The AI or the ADA group will be carrying out that.
- And your, are you Atlas?
- (indistinct)
- Thank you for that. (indistinct)
- Council Gwana, you have a question?
- You have a question, Professor Chikla. EPOS system, when you scan your item, does it come up on the teal? What do you scanned? Have you got updated your teals? Is it updated?
- (indistinct)
- So the name of the item comes up. So if someone's buying vodka, it will come up. The teal is selling vodka. Okay, that's why I think it's...
- Right, are there any other questions you've got to answer?
- It's only for clarification, actually, because I got confused. But regarding your personal license holders, you're the DPS, aren't you? Yes. And you've got two trained personal license holders. Is that both Sunay Sadulov and Khan Atabir? And they're both there working in the shop at the moment, and they're both sound?
- Personal licenses, our applications are in at the moment with the UN council. That's my understanding. So we're just waiting for them to be issued and training and everything has been done for them.
- Okay, before those two, and they will be working in the shop.
- Yes.
- All right, I have no further questions. Any questions from the authority? Steve, please.
- It's just for clarification, really. It's referred to that Signal News, 309 Ronford Road, is selling high-strength alcohol. Where the pictures do obviously relate to high-strength beer being present at that premises, I can safely confirm that that is not the case. Signal News does have a license. And I'm sure Colin mentioned that earlier on in his report. They currently have a sale of retail alcohol from 10 till 10.30 on Sunday. Monday to Saturday, 8 to 11. And they do have controls of alcohol under Annex 3. One being strong, beers, larks, ciders. Over 6% are not permitted to be sold at the premises. Clear signage regarding this condition should be prominently displayed above the cancer. Spivots not to be sold in bowls of less than 200ml, which is 20cl. And if the premises to remain open at such permitted hours, then all alcohol should be screened off for public view. Obviously, it does go on with other conditions. And I can confirm that I did actually keep a record of all the premises that I did visit, obviously, during our street-drinking visits and also follow-up visits in the area. There was a full compliance visit that was done on Signal News 309 Robby Road on the 21st of August 2024 at 8.40 in the morning. TPs were carried out, which they passed. And a full compliance visit was carried out and passed with there was no high-strength beer at that location. So I just wanted to make that clear, because obviously that's information that must be relating to either another premises or, like, red photographs that have been taken.
- Thank you, Stu.
- I'll just come back on that one. So this is, as far as I'm concerned, I took the photographs. I went to see Nel's news agent, it's an off-licence. That is his display with Black Storm cider. And that's what he's selling there at 7.5%.
- Yeah, I can confirm. Then pictures on from Signal News.
- They are.
- No, they're not.
- They got different colour flaws.
- They are from St. El's news.
- Yeah, I like them over there too, and they're not.
- Okay, I'm going to stop it right there. So that's maybe something that you can take outside of his hearing. C.
- All I would say, yeah, it may be another premises on that parade, but I can confirm that it's definitely not.
- Okay, any questions?
- First, yeah, but one question. You stated that Suna and I, we weren't paying at the time. You put your hands up, you're with yourself. But your training log says that the log-in training is in March, and the log-in says that it's not about Channel 25 in there. So just a bit of clarification on that.
- The answer is that they had verbal training. As I said, Mr. Sadlock had been told this was verbal training. They hadn't received the licensing training and the stuff for the personal license
- So the verbal training came from whom?
- That would have been the Atlas.
- Atlas.
- Yeah, it's actually through age of them. I think he still uses a company.
- Well, so it was like an online thing?
- It's not an online thing, somebody went to.
- Oh, someone went to. Okay. You have to do that.
- Yeah, it is verbal training. But it was recorded, so that's one of the above on that point. The gentleman made earlier, and yeah, obviously it was given by Atlas. It doesn't say it was written on verbal. But yeah, it would be trained on a 17 plus seven. So I'm happy with that. Yeah, all right. Thank you.
- Just before you go, Steve's conditions, if we wanted to go on. I'm feeling the adjournment.
- [inaudible]
- Okay, thank you. Conwell, have you any questions?
- Yeah, just a clarification really. You mentioned about the conditions, except in the condition a minimum of two cans, is that correct? And your argument was that somebody could come along and just put their money down and walk out of the shop, was that correct?
- That was one of the arguments. They can do that or they can just pull together and buy two cans and give each other one. So it doesn't actually do anything by putting a condition in there, is my argument. You can go in and buy two together and each have one can. So you can go in for two pounds on the counter, it's £1.90. And walk out with a beer.
- Okay, thank you.
- [inaudible]
- Right, so you would want your client to be able to sell single cans at one price?
- Yeah.
- Of high strength?
- Yes.
- Seven point five?
- Seven point five, yes.
- And why seven point five?
- Because that is, I mean, nine percent would be a very small percentage that is actually sold, but there is more sold if the seven point five would reduce that, then the sales would, it would have a dramatic effect on sales at the shop.
- Why not six percent?
- Because a lot of people like the higher strength. I mean, a lot of people from Eastern European countries don't drink the four point two and four point five percent beers we drink. You know, Polish like Otiski, that's half of my strength, six percent of the stuff like that. And a lot of people like other, the foreign, Guinness foreign, I think is quite high.
- Seven point five.
- Seven point five, exactly. And people like that. So, like I said, it's, that is sold, that's what he does sell. Like I say, there's no real evidence. There's one picture of a can, blacked from cider, whether we accept it came from my client's shop or it came from another shop, but it's there. There's no other alcohol there shown in evidence that is high strength alcohol. No evidence whatsoever. The pictures don't show anything that is produced in a statement and said this is this kind of stuff or this kind of stuff. This is my point about the condition. It's, to my mind, it's sort of relevant to what's been put before the subcommittee this morning.
- Thank you. Just before I go, I was asking John about the strength of the beers that they were selling at the cider. And you said Perla or Mokna?
- Yeah, it's Perla. Perla and Mokna.
- They're two different beers.
- Yeah, it's slightly stronger than the other Perla, which is in the green can. I can't remember the exact strength. Maybe Colin could find that out online, or I can Google it quickly.
- Yeah, and some Mokna.
- That is the same. Perla and Mokna is the same.
- Same.
- Yes, it's in a black can. I think there is a picture on that. Just after Pearson's statement, there's all pictures of the cans. You've got the ciders, and there is a few other high strength beers. You can't clearly see the names, but they are on the shelves as well. Yeah, Perla, Mokna, it looks like it's got £2.20 underneath it, and the other can is £1.80, and they're quite popular with street... Like I say, street drinkers has evolved over the years. As I said, it's not just the brown bag and the high strength, it's also other beers they do purchase as well. But street drinkers do hang around on corners and...
- Right, any other questions? Is it for them just somewhat now, or... Yes, so you're now...
- Yes.
- Oh, sorry.
- As I said, Chair, in terms of calling this review, it was a result because of the snowball effect of the issues found. I can clearly see that the operator, the premise holder, has tried to improve things in the premises. Obviously, there has been... I don't want to go too much detail about it, because obviously I'm not actually not looking for the license to be broke from the license inside. I'm looking for these conditions to be added. There has been made reference to, obviously, the training for Sunay, who's clearly stated that he struggles with his English and writing, but obviously there's a certificate here for him passing the personal license. I don't really want to comment any further on that, but if he struggles to write in a refuser's book, then obviously I would have to question how he's passed his personal license, but I don't want to go into any more detail on that. In terms of the, again...
- I have... I can interrupt, right? Did you put up your hand?
- Normally, and I had one of my times doing the exam yesterday, they're true or false questions, so the right isn't really a requirement.
- Right, so he had someone to translate for him?
- I'm not sure about that. He was done through another training agency.
- Right.
- I mean, they're accredited and they provide it. I don't think we can say that there's...
- No, no, that's fine.
- I haven't done it properly, and these aren't justifiable qualifications that my client's staff has passed this test.
- Thank you.
- Again, I didn't want to go into any more detail on that, but again, because it was made reference by the premise holder about this employee, that's why I raised that concern, because I do listen to what happens at the hearings. In terms of, obviously, the conditions I stand by, all the conditions that are put on the license, I fully understand in terms of stuff screened off, because obviously the times are not going to change unless the committee do want a change on the last times, and that's one of the reasons why I did put that in there, subject to whatever issues you do agree at the end. Obviously, again, there has been an improvement in the area, and again, I feel that these conditions that I have suggested today will obviously help improve the area. There has been a big improvement, but again, how long will that go on for? But whether it's changing, when the sunnier weather comes out, are we going to see a lot more street drinkers come back to this area, and having really strong, robust conditions on this license would help improve the area in the future. And just to confirm, in terms of the premises that was mentioned in appendix B, that premises 309 does have a license and does have robust conditions on that already. Pretty much that sums up my review application. I would just be able to leave that to the committee to make the final judgment.
- Thank you. All right. Thank you, everyone. It's been an interesting hearing. We are going to go into deliberations now with the clerk and our legal officer. We will be given a decision today, so I'm going to adjourn this hearing, and when we are ready, we'll call you back. Don't go too far. All right. This meeting is now adjourned. Thank you. Hello, everybody. Thanks for coming back. This meeting is now adjourned. We have, in fact, many presentations today, and our legal officer will explain what it is.
- The Licensing Subcommittee has decided to amend the existing conditions on the license. So the amended conditions will be in line with those set out at pages 12 and 13 of the agenda. There will be exceptions. The alcohol strength will not be 6%, it will be 6.5% strength. There will also be an additional condition regarding the keeping of invoices and for those to be disclosed to any council officer who requests them.
- Thank you, Ken. The applicant responsible authorities and interested parties may appeal against the decision to the Magistrate's Board within 2019. Thank you, officers.
Summary
The Licensing Subcommittee decided to amend the existing conditions on the premises licence for Woodgrange Supermarket at 5 Woodgrange Road. One of the new conditions that was added related to the strength of the beers, lagers and ciders that could be sold, which will be 6.5% ABV, and another required that the licence holder keep invoices for alcohol purchases for three months and make them available to council officers on request.
Underage Sale of Alcohol
The meeting was to review the premises licence for Woodgrange Supermarket following an application by Newham Council’s Licensing Team. The review was triggered after Trading Standards officers conducted an underage test purchase operation at the premises on 30 June 2024, during which two underage police cadets purchased two cans of San Marino. The seller, Mr Sadulov, did not ask for any identification. Mr Pervaiz, the Trading Standards Officer who conducted the test purchase, said that when he returned to the premises after the sale to speak to the seller, Mr Sadulov was unable to provide a refusals log and had very little knowledge about Challenge 25.
The premises licence holder, Mr Cikla, explained that the sale had taken place when he had left Mr Sadulov, who he described as a part-time member of staff who normally stacked shelves and fetched stock, to look after the till while he went to the cash and carry. He said that the regular member of staff who was supposed to be on the till had been unable to work because he was abroad receiving emergency dental treatment. He said that he regretted asking Mr Sadulov to serve customers.
Mr Cikla and his licensing agent, Mr Carter, said that following the test purchase, all staff, including Mr Sadulov, had completed training provided by Atlas1 on Challenge 25, the four licensing objectives, and the legal requirements for the retail sale of alcohol. Mr Sadulov and another member of staff, Mr Atabinin, had also completed the BIIAB Level 2 Award for Personal Licence Holders and had submitted applications for their own personal licences. Mr Carter argued that the underage sale should be treated as an isolated incident, and pointed to a previous test purchase at the premises that had been carried out in February 2023 by Trading Standards, which had been passed.
Antisocial Behaviour
Mr Pearson, a Newham Council Neighbourhood Community Safety Officer, said that the area in which the shop was located had been experiencing high levels of antisocial behaviour. He said that the area, which included the alleyway at the rear of the premises, was frequently used by street drinkers who left litter and urinated in the area, causing distress to residents. Mr Pearson said that since December 2023 he had issued a number of Community Protection Warning Notices under the terms of Newham Council’s Public Spaces Protection Order to street drinkers in the alleyway, but that the effectiveness of the order was limited because most of the alleyway was on private land.
Mr Pearson’s statement, which was also supported by the Metropolitan Police, said that he believed that most of the street drinkers in the area had purchased the alcohol they were consuming from Woodgrange Supermarket. He referred to the large window display at the front of the shop, which was largely given over to alcohol advertising, and said that this was “an environmental cue to chronic alcohol use”. He also referred to photographs that had been taken in the area, which showed empty beer cans. Mr Pearson said “The cans that the drinkers use are quite distinctive and are not the brand's types seen on sale in Tesco or Iceland”, both of which were also located in Woodgrange Road.
Mr Carter, Mr Cikla’s licensing agent, disputed Mr Pearson’s statement and said that there was no evidence linking the street drinking in the area with sales from the shop. He said that one of the photographs referred to by Mr Pearson showed an empty can of Black Storm cider, which was not stocked by Woodgrange Supermarket, but was available from a nearby off-licence, Signal News. Mr Carter also said that there were a number of other off-licences in the vicinity of the alleyway, including Tesco and Iceland, and that neither Mr Pearson’s statement, nor the photographic evidence, suggested that Woodgrange Supermarket was the source of the alcohol being drunk.
Mr Carter argued that the street drinking in the area was more likely to be related to the fact that the alleyway was an “open space” that could be “gained access to throughout the day” rather than because of the location of Woodgrange Supermarket or the types of alcohol being sold there.
Mr Cikla said that he did not condone street drinking and had refused to serve a number of customers he suspected of being street drinkers, many of whom, he said, were elderly men. He said that he also tried to discourage street drinkers from congregating outside the premises. He pointed to his shop’s refusals log, which showed a number of recent refusals to people who had been attempting to purchase high-strength beers.
New Conditions
Mr Jackson, a Senior Licensing Enforcement Officer for Newham Council, said that the existing conditions on the premises licence were not “robust” enough and he suggested a number of additional conditions that could be added to the licence in order to address the concerns that had been raised, including:
- A requirement that beers, lagers and ciders should not exceed 6% ABV.
- A requirement that spirits should not be sold in bottles of less than 35cl.
- A requirement that bottled and canned beers, lagers and ciders should be sold in packs of no less than two.
- A requirement that all alcohol products should be marked with a label stating the name and postcode of the shop.
- A requirement that a personal licence holder should be present at the premises at all times.
- A requirement that outside of permitted hours all alcohol should be stored in lockable cabinets.
- A requirement that a written record of all incidents occurring at, or immediately outside, the premises should be kept.
- A requirement that the CCTV system should be upgraded and additional cameras installed.
- A requirement that all staff should complete refresher training every three months.
Mr Carter said that Mr Cikla was willing to agree to some of these new conditions, including the upgraded CCTV system and the requirement that staff complete refresher training, but he argued that some of the other conditions were unnecessary. In particular, he did not want to agree to the suggested reduction in the maximum strength of beers, lagers and ciders that could be sold, and he argued against a condition preventing the sale of single cans. He said that there was a demand for high-strength beers and ciders and that preventing single can sales would not prevent street drinking as people could simply “club together” to purchase multipacks. Mr Carter argued that the new conditions should only address the underage sale and should not be used as an excuse to “add a raft of conditions which will make it harder for my client to operate [a] profitable business”.
After considering all of the evidence presented, the Licensing Subcommittee decided that it would add a number of new conditions to the existing premises licence. The majority of the new conditions were the same as those suggested by Mr Jackson. However, the Subcommittee decided that the maximum strength for beers, lagers and ciders would be 6.5% ABV rather than the 6% suggested by Mr Jackson. The Subcommittee also decided to add a condition requiring that Mr Cikla keep invoices for alcohol for three months and make these available to council officers on request.
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Atlas is a training provider that specialises in providing licensing qualifications. ↩
Attendees
- Jane Barbara Lofthouse
- Tonii Wilson
- Winston Vaughan
- Christine Elsasser
- Colin Hunt
- Ken Foot
- Mandeep Mehat
- Mehrunnisa Hussain
- Steve Jackson
- Umair Malik
Documents
- Printed minutes 10th-Sep-2024 10.00 Licensing 2003 Act Sub-Committee minutes
- Agenda frontsheet 10th-Sep-2024 10.00 Licensing 2003 Act Sub-Committee agenda
- Public reports pack 10th-Sep-2024 10.00 Licensing 2003 Act Sub-Committee reports pack
- DeclarationofInterestGuidance other
- Licensing procedure
- Committee Review Report
- Appendix A
- Appendix B Redacted
- Appendix C
- Appendix D
- Appendix E Redacted
- Appendix F
- Supplementary 10th-Sep-2024 10.00 Licensing 2003 Act Sub-Committee