Transcript

• As guest Dean, I represent a cluster of villages between Stanford and Granson. Thank you.
• My name's Lizzie Loring, I'm a new member and I'm a volunteer for God's Fair. Excellent.
• Oh, I don't know. I don't know if you can, I don't know if you can, new member for us. I want to be sure to listen. You see?
• Lizzie's skates from this clinic and also new member users of Twent running in Turkey.
• All right, Robinson, a user of public rights relief, walking and a very keen cyclist and off-road cyclists, that's what I'm doing. And we're joking.
• James can's ever else be our reward from the Middle East, or the oldest members.
• Yeah.
• And the castles can't, can't are not, respective representatives of the two local authorities, the commissions, let's laugh. And I'll just ask the officers here, I noticed that we used to have rather a bit of an overweight in horse riders and users anyway. And suddenly we seem to have got orcas, definitely. I'm not a bad thing at all, but sure, 'cause you've had Lincoln. (laughs)
• Is that a chance of who's coming here today? And I think we've got a bit of a dip waiting for people who came forward. Do you want to take this one?
• I think we have in a different way of people who came forward. But we do have some question users on the phone, I think.
• No, I'm not here.
• Yeah.
• I sent their apologies today, 'cause at least two.
• Yeah, of course we'll come to that.
• Well, that means I can move on to all these rounds.
• Okay, Chairman, we've received apologies from Angie Tomlin, Lauren Sharp, Victor Clark, Steph Rand, Malcolm Cazix, and Tina Irving. Thank you.
• The formal declaration of following, the quest for declaration of interest, if anybody knows there's something coming up which they have an interest in or conflict of interest in, you may declare it now, or you may declare it at any time of eating to something pops up that you haven't realised. You'd be good at comfort. We have a next item which is for members of the public to ask questions. I don't know how the public conditioner asked questions. It'll move over that. Ask, well, move on to the minutes of the meetings. They can lastly think. And the first thing to do there is to ask if there are any amendments to it. Anyone that was present as there's anything they think is inaccurately amended. Listen, can I have a motion to prove the minutes? Oops, that's rude. Second, all those in favour. And next, I'll have Matt of the rising from the minutes because anybody wants to raise any matters from the minutes.
• Yes, Chair.
• Yeah.
• I could frame this up, Greg, if you have a look at that on page six, we will look at when it should be done just for the meeting. So, the October meeting, I intend to present that likewise construction sites in the countryside in October meeting now. No, it's going to be going to be done. The next item is more Andrew to present an introduction to the... Yes, sir. This is one we're going to talk about the relevant business. No, it's not. This one, well, that'll be done. I did say that, so it's myself. Yes, that's why I got a bit thrown out if I looked at the floor where I'm going to go. And that's going to give us something I found. It's going to give us an introduction to the Beyond Black Says forums for you all.
• Well, I'll say thank you, Chair. We've agreed as a matter of a lovely presentation which I then copied that Matt goes through to this one. And I'm on the screen with...
• Yes, I'm on the screen.
• Yeah. Yeah, as I've just introduced, so I'll find my future chapter, I managed to public rights away in the whole piece of the internship. I'll put a small bit in it. Yeah, there's 214 kilometres of public rights away and a piece of the internship, but that is 138 kilometres of public paper and 76 kilometres of brighter light. And we have quite a few assets on the network, some 296 Waymark posts and 128 bridges, 182 side posts, and currently there's 12 styles, which are all styles and pedestrian styles. Due to the Quality Act, these are being reduced in number and to make the countryside easier access to all. There's 16 barriers which include most Viking hearsers, something that's 14 safe people out of 250. I mean, cattle grids, I'm a deal with all sort of customer reports. Main one being the non-ringed statements over, I mean, vegetation, obstructions, concrete pot blocks, copper only, right, so a network and surprisingly leaves on life. So I'm going to respond to it. Yeah, so it's not that just machine running. Yeah, so this is the structure of North East Lincolnshire. In 2010, they went in partnership, a regeneration partnership, where the planning highways and regeneration were outsourced at the time, it's about for BT, and they were under Equins banner until next July and we're going to be too paid back to council. And on the right-hand side, see the Equins structure, they were laid out and public rights away are under the highways department. And then there's the head of the highways and transportation and that he's responsible for the traffic transport drainage park and the highways and sets. We sit under the highway assets, along with a street lighting highway structures, highway assets, highway DC development, control planning applications go through that team and the highways inspectors, the team that inspects all the adopted highways. In the public rights away team, there's myself and one inspector. Feel free to the next one. Yeah. And I'm responsible for the limited map modification orders and public power forwarders, the diversions under the Town and Country Planning Act and the Highway Act. And they're all with sort of temporary closures under the TRO legislation. These can be the thing developers wanted to close, public footpath, because construction's been run alongside it, so service provider wants to close it to someone next to it. Also recently done the advice for improvement plan, which is one of the step functions we have to do. Responsible for the local transport plan projects, so I have a few forwards each year and to improve the rights away network. And unfortunately, I've been given the current project to an inch, so I've been commented. I also do the work disorders for the post replacement, posts and bridge repairs and other maintenance on the network. And also the freedom of information request, so just general requests and then responding to customer reports. And I've won inspector at the moment and she started in January. Sorry. Yeah, and she's getting to know how to do the inspections, just currently learning what to do then. And just on the reinstatement checks for all the paths alongside field ages or cross-field paths, and all the paths on the network on a 19 month cyclic inspection. So I've become at two different seasons during the 19 month cyclic inspections. And she's responsible for the reinstatement checks, the wackling checks, and the reed spraying. And also responds to the customer. I'm currently dealing much to Andrew's frustration through D&MIs. [INTERPOSING VOICES] Could you tell us what the-- Oh, sorry. D&MIs are different from map modification orders they're adding paths where they've been provided to a certain amount? I'll just explain that through reference to Andrew's frustration, which goes up as an ignore. It's really great to not put Lincoln's shirt in this field. Yes, I was just thinking, can't speak hands. We might be talking to you about some sort of resource shift. You might-- yeah, but that's all about listening to me. I've got that-- yeah, I've got that thing. Yeah, 26 PPOs, I thought, is there the diversions of the paths? And for this year, there's three LTP projects, a local transport plan projects. And that's surfacing the path involved in replacing a boardwalk in Stalingbroke with a culvert and replaced, hopefully, three bridges that come into the end of life. These are a couple of projects that I've done in the last couple of years that two photos on the right-hand side are on the surfacing of a path, alongside peaks, parkway, and grimaceby. It was quite muddy, uneven, so surfed it, surfaced it, made it a bit more accessible. It's been at some-- there would be more traffic, pedestrian traffic, walking up and down there, because there's sort of quite a phantisocial behavior around that, and it seems to be doing the trick. And the two photos on the left-hand side are two bridge encasements. We've done-- actually, it's the public footpath, one area in Laceby, and all the bridges that we're replacing have steel, crossfit, and steel beams across the streams now. Steel beams seem to be keeping timber beams on the bridges, and hopefully these have increased the life of the bridge, and steel is actually cheaper than timber at the moment, so it's a dusting life sheet, and these are bridges. OK, thank you. Does anybody have any questions they want to ask? Yes, first. Peter, did you put your hand up? I just want to see how many people first before we decide. That's just two. Yeah. Peter, yeah, essentially, it's very good first. OK, it's something from both Andrew and Massey, I think. I got accosted a few weeks ago by somebody with an interest in off-road cycles, and I'm thinking of mine, and my younger son used to tear around the countryside. What he was talking about are electric bikes. The legislation is changing on electric bikes, and they will be more powerful. That doesn't necessarily mean that we're faster. We'll still be limited to where 15 miles an hour on roads. Apparently, this guy owned one. He can do 25 miles an hour plus cross-country, and he wasn't sure about his rights. He'd been riding on bike. He belongs to a club, when I'm not talking about sort of teenage railway, quite the contrary, but he didn't know what the legislation really covered, and what we did to influence the maintenance of trackways that could be used by people on two wheels rather than two legs. So that's why you don't have to give me an answer now. And the other one is a bit more generic, and I've had it from three different flipping villages. We all know that we've had the headless rainfall, 18 months period of rainfall, since record to be gone, and a number of bridges and foot faster are adjacent to what, of course, is a big damage. I have tried to plead, usually in the plot book, that we're at the back end of the financial year. And you two gentlemen would be thinking about next year's budget rather than this. But there is an awareness of it, the amount of damage. Once somebody described the fact that part of the bus had actually collapsed into a dyke in my village, there's almost a branch that about three or four years old, and it's been declared unsafe and taped on. So that's one. How do you get the word out? That's for you to decide. But certainly with more than that, you go back to the cluster of almost 24 villages that I tried to keep in contact with. And the third one was in south of the cantoupe, so we have two fairly large developments. One's called Cliction Wood, about 2/3 of his actually in Brooklyn. The other one is a huge solar farm. And fighting to ensure rights of way, not just existing ones, but the opportunity to create more countryside access when big area developments. Cliction Wood is huge. It's going to be another sure good forest. I think it's a substantial area. Do we take the lead on it? That's a collective way. I don't just mean the LA. It should be taking a lead on trying to influence how developers, landowners, or rivers responsible, improve countryside access, not just sustained ones that are already there. Can I just ask, Councillor Kent, do you want to ask your question as before I ask any response? Just to Matthew, regarding the developers, how much notice do they have to give you? Or are they obliged to give you notice before they interrupt these rights of way? Is there anything written down? Yeah, four to five weeks that I asked for the legal order to be processed. But if there's a development going on, I'm consulted quite early in the development minutes. And then going back to sort of Peter's statement that I do work with quite a few developers being at a highway asset team and having a highway easily alongside that team. I've quite a good relationship with Lara Patele, who does that at a high raised issue. Can I ask, are there a blight also to make good as well? Yeah. As it was originally. OK, all right. Yeah, I often go out before a development is taken place to take photographs that I just want to make. Anything else you want to say to that, Peter? It's awful. Hi. I'm doing it this way because sometimes people actually ask the second question to get on that. Just I got a couple of points that I think would be interesting for Peter. No, you had your little structure chart, management chart at speed. But quite a lot of what has been raised by his two members, the planning process is impinges on the rights of a great deal. And also, of course, you're doing things that require legal processes. How do you have a sort of people in the legal department who do that for you? Do you have dominated people in the planning department, either the A's or the practical contacts? Yeah, you obviously can't do it all. Don't have the expertise between your small team to do all of these things. Now, as planning we're now in one sort of large open plan office, after walk past planning, it's going to lie. So you're so excited to use the term using other contacts embedded in the plan? Yeah, yeah. Because we're in the regeneration partnership, there's all the other departments building control and all in that office. So I've quite a good relationship with planning offices. But presumably, the council has a dignity fund, because the kind of act was drafting the orders, make sure that they can plug or not. Well, no, that's me. I draft the legal orders, then send it to legal to see if they've got any. Yeah, that's a means. But I maybe get to look over by a qualified lawyer. It has to. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Go ahead. You can go ahead. Really, orders and modifications, you can look at Lincoln Shrek and those times. It's quite a raft of changes. Who thinks at the cost for them going in the paper? Is it the developer or the council? It's usually the council. Yeah, for the EMOs. And there's only sort of address to develop a problem. Well, if it's a diversion of PPOs, then it'd be the developer that pays, yeah. Thank you. All right. That's a chair of the whole they claim or the development plan for making this. And writing the plan that we were influenced to write the green plan to support the labor, the green plan, was how to improve access to the countryside, how to develop new forecasts. How would you look at that plan when you look at the whole play area? Well, whole to look like Andrew's area. [LAUGHTER] No, they're being principled. Are you going to add everything? Yeah. If there's something that can be added to the benefit of the public, then we'll certainly look into it if there's a sort of development taking place and can get a footpath out of the city, I certainly wouldn't put that forward. So who influences the developer? In that team, it's me, I'm A.C. OK, I'll give you an example. We've got a issued railway line, and there's a big new house in developing, butting up to the railway line. And we tried to get the developer to make that railway line accessible for people to walk. The developer, which of which would entertain that. And I'll broaden that out a little bit and say that personally, I think these are the sorts of things that can be brought into the right way and proven kind of which we will be talking about its progress in development soon. At least I'm going to suggest that personally. Just before I ask Councillor Carrington about his question, Wendy Bannerman has just arrived. Wendy, because there's a lot of people here, including you, I asked everyone just to introduce themselves when they're right. So would you care to just introduce yourself? Sorry, I was stuck in the lobby. I'm based across the East and West Midlands. So excuse me, I've had a long journey, but I work full-time with the British Horse Society. I'm here as an interim member of your lab to represent equestrians. Just one thing, I just quickly said at the beginning that I might seem a little bit unprepared for this meeting. And that's because I sent my apologies that I wouldn't be able to come because I have a hospital appointment that clashed with it. And in the middle of this morning, the hospital found and said, well, you'd have to cancel your appointment. So I don't know, well, it will come anyway. And I wasn't quite prepared as I would have been if I'd been, you know, knowing I'd been coming here all along. So obviously I was just that over to you, Councillor. Yes, what do you know? We were just saying before you came in, do we have a representative for Horse City? And she's arrived in the nick of time. I just wanted to pick up, Chairman, without-- and you're right, a lot of this does fall into the row area. But I just wanted to pick up your asked barrier, but how and where the influence would come from to make sure with new developments that there are footpaths where we can get them. Part of that and declaring interest here, I'm also in addition to being three kinds of Councillor. I am a planner in public service to retirement gate, but I take it quite seriously. I do very big applications in the east of the county. So when we get something for sale, when you're housing a stage of something like that, or indeed, as we've got going on around Lincoln, sustainable urban extensions, we try and build in what we call active transport, the moments or modalities, i.e. walking, cycling, riding horses, right from the start. So quite often, when you get a plan, I think of what I've got at the moment for a couple of hundred houses in the borough of Boston, that did not have that. You go back to the developer and you say, look, look around the edge of that. Let's have a pass around the edge of it. Let's look at the way the public opens space within that is leaked and you're also thinking there of nature as well, because you want green corridor for wildlife to go through. So it does vary and there will be developers who will just say, sub-off, we won't do it and if you refuse this will appeal, that's part of the process. You always try and hope that your local plan, and here in this part of the world, the central Lincolnshire local plan was heavily revised to be much greener, that was signed off last April. So that's quite, quite new and fresh. The local plan is really the source of the local authorities' power to say to developers that shout. And it's really important that we have that part and that is increasingly used across the land.
• 20 years I have not.
• Just to add to that, I spent an awful lot of my time writing responses to planning applications, whether they have existing rights of way or they're a potential rights of way to be out or permissive routes at the worst to be had. And we have had some success, particularly with developments like solar farms, where there might be 40 years worth of paths to be had. I would urge people to consider right-of-way status at least for any additions, because then that's more inclusive of wheelers, walkers and horse riders. And the other thing I would just be wary of, because it's certainly been me in a particular development that isn't a new development, it's been in situ about five years now. But where they have created pathways around an estate, because there are maintenance fees on those pathways, then residents have been very clear about not wanting to have outsiders using those pathways. So you've now got an island, essentially, and you've got a lack of connectivity through one place to the next.
• Could I ask a question, Dean? Yeah, does that largely apply to urban areas? Because it doesn't match my experience in smaller villages. It's in terms of the resistance to having effectively a public right way through a new housing estate. I can understand that in bits of Grantham, but in my village, people must welcome it, I suspect. I've never known anybody in small village have that raised that sort of objection. But you tend to be talking quite some of the developments, of course.
• Yeah, that's good to hear. It's generally with the estuaries, I think.
• I'll just, anybody that had much experience of the planning process knows that it's vitally or really important to the standing policies the council are in accord with what you're asking. So if you have a development come along, the kind of thing you were talking about about using the railway. If you're asking something in the developer, so your planning policies, planning authority, and the local plan, et cetera, doesn't provide for, you're gonna have a damn hard job getting them to do it. But if you've got a banging of a policy, then you'll be likely to be upheld if it gets to an inquiry, if you demand something or don't or refuse something on those grounds. Now, my view is, Andrew might have a comment on this one. He's going to speak in a moment that these are all issues which will logically come within the three minutes of the rights of improvement plan. And I'm not thinking it's not just the matter of saying, oh, wouldn't it be nice or listing things that need repairing or where there was one or two places where you know there might be a new path needed. It's to have a recommended sort of policy that the council has, that's what rights of improvement plan should be. Please, which ties in with the planning process. Everyone says that they should not be planning policies which are involved with the rights of my own group. That's essential, I wanted to say. If I'd like to move on, I can go back to the council to make this presentation. In fact, okay, everybody, thank you. Thank you all for your question.
• Let me let me unplug it so you've got to.
• Give you.
• There you go.
• Let's stand up. My voice carried more on standard for her, I don't know. Brief presentation, primarily to help the new users to understand the local access forums. And they also, I'm saying a bit of a give you an overview of where rights of way and access is for Lincolnshire County Council. So, personally, the purpose of the local access forums you would see in the next slide in terms of, it's a statutory advisory body. This means under the section 94 of the countryside rights where our 2000 poor councils have to create a local access forum. Its job is to advise Lincolnshire County Council and all of these links, councils, district councils and other bodies, what we call section 94 bodies, as to the improvement of public access to land for purposes of open air recreation and also for the enjoyment of the area. And also was added to that, public access to land in the area for any lawful purpose. So, your reality is quite wide. It's wider than just rights of way. In the countryside, it can include public access to land in any lawful service. The forum has a duty to have regard to the needs of land management, the desirability of conserving natural new to the area during your work. So, that's the area. Its purpose is to provide strategic advice. So, it influences the decision makers and it's according to the direct from the guidance, provide independent, constructive, relevant, inclusive, incisive and informed advice. So, it's quite a little big task. It's not a scrutiny or oversight committee. So, whilst individuals can be, issues can be raised to discuss a strategic point, like we've done on our previous discussion already, it's not the role of the forum to look and fix specific issues and you provide independent advice rather than be in a scrutiny committee. The overarching aim is for forums to set their own agenda. We as officers will provide information and advice for the forum, but the success of forums nationally will be dependent on being able to maintain the second zone agenda. So, we would, officers would struggle to provide the amount of work for you in those, if we were doing that ourselves. Nice. One step edge in the area. So, that's a few bodies that receive advice from the forums over the section 94 bodies. They have a legal duty to have regard to any relevant advice that you give them. And in all the advice, I'm gonna provide a little bit of a blurb that's recommended to go on the end of any particular letter that reminds them of that duty. That will help with the raise the power of the next advice, essentially. They aren't bound to follow the advice, but they must take it into account so they can't just ignore it. They should be responding on the ones there. So, that's a very brief overview of local access forums and have to go into more detail, but I felt that would be all we need in one blast. One to other matters. Let's talk about leaving shift. So, we're a little bit bigger than Northeast names. We've got 1,883 miles of public footpaths, 514 miles of Broadway, 90 miles of restricted byway, and 20 miles byway is open to all traffic. So, to give a brief overview, footpaths are for on foot with a dog, wheelchair is allowed, but essentially it's just on foot. Not allowed even to wheel your cycle through technically you have to carry them. Public rideaways are for footpaths plus horse riding and cycling. Restricted byways goes a little bit further than that. It adds what we call non-mechanically-propelled vehicles, which is, in reality, horse cars along the byways. And byways open for traffic are exactly that. We call them boats, but they are effectively the same as a non-carriage way. With a few exceptions, byways open for traffic have a particular category, and it means that this is going off memory to apologize. It's, you can use them in the way that normal carriage ways can be used, but they are predominantly as rideaways effectively. So, when you have a byway open on traffic that is used more by vehicles than it is by people on foot and on horseback, then it ceases really to be a byway open for traffic which should be recognised as something else. It's a bit of a technicality, but it does matter when we're talking about what type of use and specifically what type of maintenance. Scentage-wise, we're looking at 75% probably footpaths as you can see. 20% rideaways, forks and restricted byways and only 1% byways. That's about standard for authorities across the country with the exception of my previous one, which had more byways for forestry. It's not from that. The organisation chart, I've split down into three areas so you can go from pretty much the assistant director of communities, goes to the head of environment who used to be in my role as Chris Miller. He looks after me along with sustainability, flood and nature worlds. And then I have three, well, two teams and two school called a TV, right? We have the Sydney countryside officers who look after maintenance and also just bearing in mind that nobody has got the chance of being able to read those notes. Fair enough. There isn't anything that they already put up. That's okay. This area is maintenance and enforcement which consists of six people plus one supporting. We have definitive map team, which is, again, under six people. We have community leaders, countryside access and community projects, Debbie over there. And we have a national trail officer who's David, who'll be coming to the next meeting. And he looks after the implementation of the England coast park for Lincolnshire. So that's my team and where we sit in the whole scheme of things but to apologize that size of the screen. I think that's it. There we are. Count workflow. Yes. Our DMMO backlog is 492. And I would like this one. We've currently got 21 under active investigation. We've currently got 17 public path orders under investigation. And we are looking at what we can do in the team to try and boost that streamline our processes. Currently we've got three definitive map officers looking solely on definitive map orders. And we have one person looking at public path orders which are diversions and extinguishments. It's stopping up. But she only works three days a week. So we're looking at how we can sort all of that out and looking at the resources there. Current projects. We've got 16 rights of way development fund projects. Those are one of the new ones that have come in this year from the council of suggested schemes from residents that come through the elected members. We have a proposed traffic regulation order of the Sustin Lane and the Drift and repairs to that. That's coming in about just under 300,000 pounds. We've got three large Viking wave projects in addition to that Sustin Lane one. King Charles III England Coast Path is one of the top priorities this year. And over the next two years it's the right way improvement plan 2025. Those are not our full workload but an idea of it. I've got some pictures, because I was, especially we've got some surfacing before and after at Beltsford from the Viking way which is what Debbie's been looking at. She's provided these pictures. Really great board walker has to be on the Viking way. It's gone from wooden to recycled plastic which is a fantastic material for board walks because it doesn't really get a problem in the water. This picture here is currently the big four. I'm rather hoping to have an after soon. So that is the Skillington Viking way. And that's part of our proposed traffic regulation order as a bit of a insight to the sort of issue we're trying to deal with there. And this is a replacement bridge deck, a curtain which might be interesting in this one. This is we replaced all of the wood and kept the steel and we replaced it all with recycled plastic. So the estimated lifespan of that bridge is in around the 45 to 50 year mark, maybe more. But it will withstand it. What you can't see in this bridge because it looks fantastic from that angle is that the bridge decks were actually rotten and falling through. So we needed to replace the whole thing. And that was done at an economic cost to really a nice bridge after that. That's it. I do have some answers to some of the questions that were raised before from a Lincoln chest perspective. But of course, I'll see if anyone has any questions. I'll ask it. I'm thinking, eight, if you want to ask a question. Sorry for anyone, sorry to you, Peter. I've invested some time in talking to people like CPRE, One Light Trust, a lot of them within the United Nations. I had heard Krista present this last October where I was struck down with shingles. So I was thinking coherent by the time he held your meeting. So this has been developed over a period of months. And the latest depth of guidelines, which actually from in the National England, the first one to send back to me, specifically at Palace 361, much forum work will inevitably be reactive and independent on the timing of various initiatives or consultations. However, forums should adopt a proactive approach in certain their priorities and giving advice. And some of the examples that they did from a natural England game need were site specific. And I think, because we've come onto the proposed constitution for this LAF shortly, that needs to be firmly in our slides. You've whirled them in the old, 'cause I'll be saying, so in the old days, when we were joined with Rutland, we did get an awful lot of, you know, walk away around a reservoir or something, it crops up time and time again. You do need to be careful. But on the other hand, if you set the policy out properly and word it in such a way that it's quite clear that individual sites can raise an issue and set the policy statement there, you should, forgive me, Andrew, if I misheard you, but I think you said, you know, you were talking strategically. The LAF, and I have spoken to other LAF, by the way, dotted up and down the country. Some were more responsive than others. That's the issue where I used to work. We're very good, came back to me straight away. But there's a huge variation across England and Wales, about matter, on the constitutions, or they may be terms of reference, that they tend to use different formats, a wording. But people will hold you to the wordings that we get. We have to be very careful in the constitution, but I would say that we should be involved in small, as well as large initiatives if they improve countryside access. Does that make sense?
• It certainly doesn't make that, does it, Andrew?
• And that's what you said. What I think I was getting at by that is, when it looks strategically, what will bulk down before it is talking about, and now there's loose on style number four on this footpath.
• Yeah, that's the sort of thing that, that might be used in the terms to talk about how our styles put together properly and how to make sure that they're okay across the board. But there's a, the devil is in the detailing and lots of things in right's way. And I think, in some cases, that would be absolutely appropriate to discuss, but it would suck up all of your time if you were looking at loads of individual stuff. So I think it's, maybe the best answer is to have that balance by doing it. I think you're getting out there to look at-
• Yes.
• There needs to be a reason why it's being discussed in this sort of poor amendment, rather than just rather than be discussed between officers.
• And for my second one is with GMMOS, there is a lot of concern, certainly in rural communities, about the 490 odd-out standard DMOs, the business about Finnish horse society, looking back to when the Norman conquest started, I think. There was a lot of concern with landowners, ordinary households, I mean, a neighbor of mine, theoretically has a DMO that goes through his front door and across his back God. And Chris notes I've raised this before, but I get my ear pitting to banks, at least two or three times a year, while people want to know what's happened, because he'd be notified of a historic PRW, he's going across their land or through their front room.
• Yeah, I think that's up to us. But you mentioned the number, but not the length of time. And I think to me, the real problem is how long it takes to process them. And I'm going to ask you to do something which is slightly embarrassing, with how long have the oldest cases been on the book?
• The oldest case on the book isn't actually an application, but it's one of the sort of the self-first started ones. And it was added in 1985. And so it wasn't actually an application. Oh, that's actually not the most cool.
• It still comes up on your own.
• Well, we still have the big protest that was on application.
• That will take me a little bit of time.
• Well, we'll show you that roughly, okay.
• We are going back to probably in the early '90s, as we're going back into the editing, so I can tell you about it.
• I think it's close to going back to the '80s.
• So why did you do that?
• Risk yes. So, yes, we haven't actually not. We've had, well, over the last two years, over 200 that's coming, over 200 of that. And actually, whilst you mentioned British horse sighting, the historical rights way applications we've got have not come from British horses, they come from football interests instead. So this is in reaction to a number of legislative changes that are coming up. It might help if I explain the sort of process. When at the current time, the legislation allows you to claim for historic routes of way which would never put on the map in the 1950s. And that's perfectly fine. People are able to do their research, submit the research to the council and claim for a way to wait. When they submit that research, they're expected to notify the land owners that they've made an application. And this is where a lot of people have had the notifications that have come on mass. So they get a letter from the applicant themselves. There's a special form. And where they cannot be identified, there was a site notice that is allowed to be put up as well. So that's what's caused a lot of inquiries that come in because of these things come out of the blue. And from a land owners perspective, you can certainly see they're concerned because this would not have come up in any house sale. It's not part of the official record. There isn't a list of everything that's not been claimed. So, unless it was something really patently obvious when they purchased the property, it would have, this will come out of the blue and it causes tremendous anxieties, you can imagine.
• I'm gonna stop you there. It's not quite as simple as that because many of these applications have been there for the cases, decades. And the land owners, the property owners know about but they've heard of that for years. And when they come to watch a sell in their house, then that's when it becomes a problem. And it nags away at the back of the mind. And I would say pretty much always, nobody wants to divulge a house that's been there for years. It's not going to happen. They're always resolved by a diversion or something, what but it has to be processed before you can do that. And so, there's this kind of, it's almost a guy like a planning client and he's over people who have things on the process, on the process of being started but it's never been finished. So, I'm beginning to sound like a campaign about, I'm not sure, just, I'm definitely about, so what I was outlining was what happens at the start and it sits in the list that has to be processed. The cast has to look through all the evidence. It needs to make a determination and it really should be doing that within 12 months. We haven't been doing that in 12 months. It's going to make the determination in 12 months but haven't made the determination. They sit there for, in quite a few cases, decades. Well, in which case, I'll go through and see which ones have actually been determined but the case is that the number that I was giving are the ones that hasn't been a decision made, hasn't been determined. So, we do have about five currently, just this year, public inquiries. So, these are claims that have been objected to, we've made an order, it's been objected to and they go to the planning spectrum. That adds extra time, that comes like that. So, these do take a very long time. As I said up there, we are looking to stream like that. I'm looking to get to the point where we can make a decision within three months. (mumbles)
• Yeah, just do it, follow just.
• It's completing the process.
• It is. - It's all done.
• That's what we want. - So, that's what we want.
• But that, all we can do is determine it because we make an order, that is, another 42 days, a six-week self-consultation, after which, if there are outstanding objections, we cannot confirm what that. So, this is where we've chosen that there is enough evidence to put it on the map. If there is objections, for any reason, we can't overall, it has to go to the planning spectrum for determination. But again, the problem has been that the council has not been forwarding the planning spectrum.
• Well, I think, in this, the ones that we have, that we have, that is effectively where it is. And so, I take your point on where we are with the historic D and the most, but we are looking into where we can go through with it. But I'm just trying to outline the process of where we're at.
• Yeah, sorry, I'm in danger. If you ask the thread of what is your question, I'm trying to let you down a bit, so round the top, all good. So, you can claim these historic rights away. And that's what's happening. Legitally, the legislash tip being, that is changing. So, in 2031, you will no longer be able to claim rights away based on historic views. You know, the free 19th Christmas and all the historic maps, you know, that something was in existence back in, you know, normal times. That will cease. So, at the moment, we're experiencing a huge burst of applications that are looking to get in before that cut-off date in January, 2031. The government have got new legislation coming in that not only puts that cut-off date in, it also creates a power of what's called a modification consent order. And that one allow, just Chris is quite right. When you get an application that goes through someone's house, and the house has been there for 100 years, but the maps show that there was a right to wait through it 200 years ago. We have to go through and only follow the evidence. So, we'd have to add the map, showing the right way through someone's house. We would then make a diversion order, which can be objected to, and we might end up with a elongated problem. Modification consent order will allow us to recognise that there was a right of wait and move it to a more convenient location. The moment we don't have those powers, but it will make things smoother in some cases. But there are also going to be a lot of cases where the landlord doesn't want it at all. And it also puts in something called the right to apply, which allows landowners to apply to diverge right away. And isn't a right to have a diversion, but it's actually right to apply for life, certainly. It changes the balance of what we look at, to take into account rights in the way that are more closer to people's residences and gardeners. And I've got this nagging feeling that I haven't really answered your question.
• I'm not getting confused between, are these changes that the original guillotine, in many certain ways, 2026, is that are they regulatory or are they statutory? In other words, we've got to go back to law to parliament to get the changes, or can the Secretary of State make a regulatory change? The situation with the 26th one was that it required in the original life, a secondary process to it.
• I knew it was delayed, I didn't know it was deserted.
• And the government started simply not to implement it. And it was within the governance power to do that. So although it was a legislation, it's just done. So what's happened now is it's introducing new legislation to have a new government of the day.
• It's, well, they had the power to, they hadn't activated it. So in a kind of civil rights way, if they had a power to activate the 2026 cut-off date, they were allowed to extend that for five years without needing to go back to parliament, which is what I had done. And they've activated the 2031, the longest period that they can do. There is, I'm just looking for it in my notes here. And there is actually some update I can give you. All of the changes I've just said, do require going back to parliament. And we do have regular discussions at things. We thought about finding out where they're at. So I was just gonna try to find, here we are, updating the 17th of April, which is, they are outlining the proposals for the process. They intend to lay secondary legislation for right to apply in June of July this year. The definitive map modification order reforms are December and what's called the exception of regulations are in early 2025. So that is the deadline for being made to the parliament. So they're not just in the...
• We're getting too much detail on that.
• Yeah, yeah, sorry about that.
• I think a short brief Andrew, so great to the members would be helpful. 'Cause I've looked at so many websites in the last three months. I'm getting sort of IT blind and interestingly, I had a conversation with CPRE, and I think the other one was rule, how does it dissociation?
• They can get me contradictory advice.
• Yeah, it's not an easy thing to get your head around, if you do. So it's got to be a long-going process for new members to be...
• Yeah, I mean, that's something to come onto, which how we can communicate as well and how we can share information.
• Just briefly, the other route to apply is through user evidence. And although there isn't the urgency in terms of the legislation and the cut-off date for user evidence claims, but there is urgency if you've got people who've said they've used a route for the last 20 plus years at some point, they may not be available to us to stand up to that evidence. So there's also some urgency there, isn't there? And that is another way that people may apply for a right way to continue.
• Yes, that's right. And thank you for mentioning that, actually. User evidence is one of the ones where because it is perishable, we do look to do those earlier. The current policy that we have for the prioritization of dependent modification orders is data pursuit. However, the council has a specific committee to look at the rights of prioritization. And after curtains or they can actually apply to have the case considered by that committee and raised up the protocol. So currently that's what's happened with a lot of them. And it's the reason why some of these is because other cases have been put up on to the priority list. There is the element of how long are we taking to make the determination that do get the point there. And that's what we're looking at to streamline. But the policy is still managed by the next members in terms of what we, what is next? I repeat, it's not the length of time it takes to reach determination. It's the length of time it takes to reach a conclusion regardless of whether there might be a long time to reach a determination and a short time to an order. There might be a short time to determination, a long time to an order. The order might be made and then there's a long time for which the secretary of state, which I say has in some cases gone on for decades. You've actually made the order. If the period for objections has been completed, the objections have been received, then nothing has been done with it for 20 years. Can you let me know which one's out? Well, I don't know which one's out today. That'd be looking at that. Well, I could let you know one or two, I don't know which one's out. One million should have a table tree, readily available, which can be looked through in a few minutes. A few minutes is probably a bit clean. Well, we're going to see more of the policies and the interesting things. It's sort of a matter of having columns in tick boxes. OK, it's this stage. Could I suggest we move on? Yes. Thank you very much. Yes. Thank you. And I would like to briefly, if you're allowed, just to answer some of the stuff you've mentioned before. My next week, Bikes, is there hasn't been any change made yet. There's a consultation which ends on the 25th of April, seeking proposed changes to the regulations and electrically assisted petal cycles to go up to 500 watts to 250 watts and to allow them to have a total of systems up to 15.5 miles. So that's currently the one that's the changes that I'm aware of. It's at consultation stage rather than making a decision stage as far as I'm aware. I know that the Institute provides way management or have submitted a response. I know that these states have decided to have and I imagine those two others said to me. Will these electric bikes count legally versus the second petal cycle? Yes, the present. Yes, that's the problem, yes. Because the more taking a motorbike on a public riding bike, it's entirely different to take a credit cycle. I mean, more for you taking it. Most of them are now being literally switched. There's a limiter, which says 25 kilometers an hour, which you bought for deep, going five miles an hour, on a road, on a public road. But off road, you can flick this switch and get 25, the guy I was talking to, the efficacy can get 35 plus half of his. That does not bring you to be legal prohibitions. I'm trying to... As long as he's a serious lawyer, as long as he's limited, what doubling the power out does is it gives you an awful lot more talk, which is what's attractive to the half of road, yes. But taking a motorbike on a public footpath is a specific offense, riding a petal cycle on the footpath. It's not a lawful ride, but it's not the lander that can do something about it if you want to. Yeah. Now that's a serious concern, I have to say. It is one of the institutes, I mean, that's why it's actually highlighted the issue of enforcement, the fact that we can do this. Quite frankly, from a maintenance perspective, we're not expected to maintain them for these sort of vehicles. And the spaces, particularly right ways, they have to be shared with other users. So it does cause some concern in where they're going. At the moment, the consultation has been released by the Department for Transport and we're not entirely sure how much the Department of the Environment Food and Rural Affairs has had involved them. All we can really do is respond to that consultation instead. I can say that many of the paths I regularly walk, I've seen the track marks so they aren't in these bikes or as they're cooking. And whereas a moment period would definitely be noticed because of the noise, these things aren't. Thank you for raising that. And I think I need to be moving on. But these are all things that we can return to. I will be returning to the... I don't know if I'd like to file this panelist. I think you can buy for some terms of reference.
• Thank you, Chairman. This is just asking the forum to approve the terms of reference, which are included in Appendix A and of the report. And they've just been written to ensure that we're operating in accordance with the legislation guidance in order for the forum to approve if they're happy.
• Does anybody want to say anything about that? We'll deal with a couple of times. I guess John, yeah, this is just one thing about the report to Nashville, England, which we've not done it, but it isn't there, hasn't it? I think, yeah, we've not done it for some years. I mean, so we felt it was helping us by saving us time to be quite honest, naturally England. I've been telling them to chase us up because they're not other staff. So, whether we want to leave that out.
• Yeah, I think that's just been included. 'Cause it is within the match, the tip requires. But if you want to, we'll still be required to do it, whether it's in there or not, but we can take that out if that's what the forum wish to do. I know that I don't know the background is.
• I mean, it's used to take some time, certainly in the last year, local access forum. And as whether we feel we've got the time to do it, do you have a view on it?
• Yeah. (laughs)
• I just want attention that we have two appendix A's.
• Mm-hmm.
• The wrong way to do this is apparently terrible. I'll put on its own front plate.
• Do you apologize?
• Just in case anybody was looking at that by myself. Well, can I move to just a few of this then?
• I think as a draft, I'm still collecting data. There's one point, for example, I've discovered. It's partly 'cause I speak nothing frequently to the wood of them in the wildlife trust. For another counties, there are either four members they're representing. And likewise, the Forestry Commission, the issue around open land is a curious one of the Forestry Commission that pretty well said all of theirs is, didn't stop them growing brown ones everywhere. So you can't walk through it. That's nature for you. Is that I think there are other bodies that ought to have a say in here or be involved. And I've got two or three copies to the rest of the shoe ones, the only one I managed to beat up for a round out of ink. But I want to do a comparison with some of the other terms of reference, constrictions, use it in terms around. And I've been in touch with, I've had 15 responses. I only started that exercise at the beginning of March. Organisations like CPRA, natural England have been extremely helpful. But interestingly, if you go to the website, there is no consolidated list of emails for the parks to local ones. So you legit end up doing a Google search around all the counties. Some were easier than others. But certainly note on our adjacent counties, the five East Midlands, plus Cambridge and Yorkshire, would be worthwhile. What do they say? Some lay layoffs don't have anything. Some will simply quote the original Decorate guidelines. Others have put some thought into it and how it's relevant to their particular area. So I'm more than happy to say, yes, we'll accept this as a draft. But I think a little bit more... It's a word I'm looking for. Comparison with benchmarking against other counties.
• Yeah, I'm going to suggest that we do a second-year motion and we have to accept these. And then if someone wants to come back with a revision later, then that's the perfect way for you to do it.
• At the moment, we've got what we've got in front of us and I think we should vote on.
• Yeah, Emma, I take it, we need to adopt it. What you're saying? We need to adopt something bad.
• We could do with it having something to work to at the current stage, are you...
• It's not going to stop us changing it.
• No, it's for the forum to change it. So if you want to bring this back, as long as it's in line with legislation and we've taken it through legal things, we can bring it back and then end it at any point.
• Can I have a show of hands on people who think that we can accept this as for the interim. But the show of hands for people who think that we need to have an active consideration.
• And which one are we going to have a broader one?
• So which one are you saying with the joins?
• I'm not asking you to vote on this yet. Well, I'm just saying we will put that to a vote in a moment. But once we've done that, what's the feeling that this won't, this isn't really adequate and we want to have a view to be, you know, broadening it out, change your thin line with the way that Peter suggested. All those who think that long-term we need something to do.
• Well, compared to October, for example, we've got a good representative group this time. Yeah, but there's anyone who's against that idea, who thinks about that idea? Well, we've got so much to what you've questioned, you're asking, all right.
• I'm sorry, I didn't know what you were going to say.
• Yeah, that's just simply saying. Are we happy to go forward or, and then show of hands on that?
• Okay, we'll do that.
• Yeah, I have a vote on a proposal to approve this. I forgot the word now.
• It's okay, it's okay.
• It's okay, it's okay.
• It's okay, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay. Okay, and all those in play, it's anyone who gets it. So that, well, okay, it's one who gets it. And what do we, it's past anyway? And, okay, I'll do it as a straight vote. Those who would like to have a review of the terms of reference, no more than that, just to hold a review process before that's done. I'll say that, and who's against that? Is that, it was a?
• Yeah, can I just clarify Peter? Are you talking about breaking down the membership? 'Cause we're sort of defined by the three categories, users of local rights of way owners of our suppliers of land and other interests. Are you talking about them?
• Yeah, it's not about Emily Young, it's not a specific one.
• Just generally.
• It walks through the lady's death for a briefing, literally lying by a lion and compared it. I thought this was a draft to tell them to. I didn't realise that it was a sort of intended to be a finish article. And I have found differences between the death for guidelines. Sometimes it's just a word, sometimes the meaning is nuanced. But I have found it informative to look at the TORs, constitutions or whatever, other LAFs have produced over time and seeking a favourism rules.
• Okay.
• Can I ask, would you be willing to prepare something for the next meeting?
• I would really start to think that you're good.
• Can I ask and sort with you? And I can do some research that perhaps should we can look at how we might be able to not bring you back?
• Well, we're only talking about starting a discussion.
• Yeah.
• But not, you know, it might at the end of the day say the floor of the copy. It might be that the kind of things you want to do are really appropriate for this document. They may not be relevant to me, but actually the efforts to the end are, well, they might be better off including the end of the day. All right. Thank you. So, so that's item five is now dealt with. So now we're going to go with the real it. Joe, you're going to talk about it.
• Yes.
• Okay. So one of the largest tasks that I've got over the next two years is to refresh our rights way improvement fan. And I've prepared the report for the tour room. I won't break the particular detail, but say what we're looking with the first stage, especially three main statements work out the statement of need of what users of rights of way need for the future in the next 10 years, develop a draft plan, which seeks to meet those needs, and then consult on that draft plan in order to produce the final plan. So it's basically an episode. We are at the statement of need part, which is a very early stages. There is a slight error on page 19 of the report. It's just simply the order of tasks. Given the project plan type scale, which includes develop a statement of need and then undertake a statement of need consultation. Actually, it works the other way. You consult first on what is needed, and then you develop your statement of need. So they were going in with a blank sheet of paper. Or be it with the existing. What I'm looking to do is the advice from the forum is sought from strategically. What are the current and likely future needs of the public from the perspective of workers, runners, disabled users, horse riders, cyclists, and drivers, offer a motorcycling and off-road vehicle users? So what are the current and likely future needs of the public? Are there specific user groups that this not listed above that need to be considered? Are there any advice from the forum about our approach? And lastly, how does the lab want to engage with this process? So generally, we look from the next October 2025, there's going to be developments that fall outside the forums meeting schedule. So does it want to consider having a subgroup that can engage on a more day-to-day basis? Or anything like that? Happy to answer questions. I'm not proposing to read out the reports, but just get into detail about what you think we need. In the report, of course, is the existing rights for an improvement plan, which expired of 2012 and the draft, which went to a consultation but hasn't actually been formally adopted. That was from 2040, even the length of time between that draft, now that's what proven to start again with this mistake that we're happy to take advice, as you think, have some approaches. Over to you. Let me just say it again. Oh, good timing. (chuckling) It does mean we've been there. I'm not asking my apologies anywhere. I've got to ask people for it to go into it. So, really, sort of the plan and maintenance, I don't know, but just, it's sort of going to be put in climate change with the West weather and how things are growing more, I'm just thinking basically, I'm, oops, I don't know, many times, right away, I've cut. And it's three times, I've asked things are growing. It's damp but we can see already things are growing, consideration moving forward over the years if something browns and weather is changing out, that's going to be fair to the right. So, it's probably now not a chance to have a look, but that's just a thought where the weather is affecting the forecast without that discussion of looking and washed away past week is so, that's some sort of a future to kind of look at a turn for that. And that's looking at threats.
• Yes, that makes sense.
• Yes.
• It's inducing other aspects.
• Yes.
• Anybody else?
• Yes, Barry.
• Barry, I think it sounds pretty sound to me, the approach seems to cross in the environmental.
• I have a point, there's a list of consultings. And I thought there was some which seem to me that may be able to be in there, but I'll give a general turn to it as those public and charitable bodies which give access to land to land, I'm interested in it. I'm thinking of the looking at trust, a national trust city, wildlife trust, wildlife trust. And then maybe others, but those seem to me to be people who, well, they are likely to have useful input. And also some views, right? Obviously, because that seems, that's an essential thing.
• So for the statement of need, so.
• Well, the reason is if you had a list of consultings, which included people like the VHS, the Foundation, et cetera, in the matter of time, do that.
• Yeah, yes, that's right. So that list is for what we're proposing for the statement of need consultation and we're absolutely happy to add to that list and take the, yeah, the grassland falls.
• So at this stage, are you looking for suggestions about how that statement is established, and how that consultation will take place?
• I'm looking really, and I appreciate that, you know, 3 p.m., which is the afternoon, might not always be the best place to receive it all done. Looking for actually what is the need for the public? So not so much asking the left opinion or it is on how we're doing it, but also what the forum thinks is the likely future needs. Whether like our own plan still leads here, anything really, we need to know, I need to know what the range is, so that we can draft the plan.
• All right, we need to understand financial plans looking forward. You can write a blue sky sort of plan, but it's never going to be achievable financially. So the two will not need to work together. If we read these documents now, the number of times it's a limit if I find that's number two five finances. Write a plan that's not achievable, question in time.
• I can certainly take your point there. The guidance actually which states and recommends that we do have ambitious plans that don't necessarily match the existing financial arrangements. I do fully appreciate where you're coming from there. You look at a plan that says we don't have the money for this. It's the writing of the plan and putting it down as what we want in the future, enables us to look at gaining that money either from potentially development contributions from grant funding or from the capital funding from the council. So guidance rise, it's telling us to disregard whether we've got any money right now, but think of where we need to get to in the future, which is what it's trying to do. I think how much it's going to cost and subject to financial sort of stuff is our way of and balancing that ambition. But it's helpful to still have that ambition because otherwise we can't go to a developer and say, we would like this here. They will say of where's your strategic basis, where's your policy basis from making that request? If we don't have that, but we don't have it in the plan, they have a much easier way of telling us no than they do if it's already in a strategic plan. One of the things I didn't mention before was just on the planning grounds, as well as the local plan that they can stand to mention because also the national planning policy framework specifically puts in that proposals should look to improve green spaces and rights away networks. I go back to Wendy's question, I'll pick it up, but asking us what we think the need is. Well, I'm a great believer in objective nation data. And I don't know, and I think probably everyone here if they were on the site, but I don't know because to get to assess that requires a process of consultation. Now, it might be that lots of that information is already right from various kinds of probably surveys, various bodies of search interventions like benefits of walking for health or exercise for health will come into things like that. You might be able to gather in, but it requires a degree of expertise to gather back kind of information. And if we were going to give advice, it would be much more likely to seek out the expertise and use it to get the information you want, which is what is, does that make sense to you about?
• Yeah, I was just thinking of the environmental authority that had gone through this process at the moment and we had some involvement with them with VHS. And they've had a formal online consultation which has had some engagement. And then we could try to sort of tackle things from different angles with run focus groups with equestrians, if I was to come to you as well. I don't know those sorts of things. And the more action they have on consultant who's doing his work around the route. So somebody independent that somebody who has experience of having done that, that work as well. And yes, I mean, I can give lots of facts and figures about the $22,000 horses that are in Lincolnshire. And so if that sort of data is used for them, very happen to evaluate that. Yes, it's just thinking.
• I'm thinking that the kind of, to get the really hard information would be too expensive, fresh, but I'm thinking that there is probably a lot of national research in general public opinion probably demand, which could be applied anywhere more or less on these similar kinds of areas are very reliably. And they might be other more specific material available, but that kind of desktop search for objective, objective and exercise evidence. And which all come from all sorts of different courses like a separate health campaign. So there are obviously a lot of groups for different types of reasons.
• Tourism as well, I think.
• You know, that'll get the faculty eyes to it.
• So to identify the need of saying they go on to sell, just come back quickly. But the, I think we can all predict that if a really thorough process was done to find out what the need really is, the need would come far beyond what the resources are likely to be. But that doesn't shouldn't stop you doing it. It shouldn't stop you saying if I deal with the 10 times as much as we can. Because then you've got the prior trials and all that 10th, one 10th of the money needs, where can it best be used out of all the choices. So yeah, Peter, was it you just?
• Was it you just want me to speak?
• No, no, it seems to be too short to need. One is the strategic need, for instance, the health aspects of it. And I agree most of that is publicly available and it already appears just needs updating the existing plan. I think also there is, although it may not be quite subjective, there is the subjective need of local communities, local groups to see specific routes opened up, corrected, altered. And that's probably just as valid and will actually capture local imagination much more than, say, health needs because the people who are really interested are already satisfied doing something about the health side of things.
• And there's a bit of common sense application in the first, well, where are there areas where there seems to be a lack generally of passes that confirmed by local opinion, what can be, what might be feasible in principle? You know, you know, when there's lots of ideas, fairly simple ideas that could be incorporated for that point of view. Without that, I would have thought a huge degree of effort required.
• This has been said for your--
• No, no, no.
• So I'm looking for your good, you know, missed your answer, that was a lie.
• Yeah, it's Hannah.
• I've written, this will be my fourth rower. So, and that does not mean by any means that I'm an expert 'cause one is fundamentally different.
• Yeah.
• But when I was in a small unitary, I did include the specific parts. And because they didn't seem the way of what I deal with that information, 'cause it comes through from a public consultation, I would like a path next to why. There was a few problems of that. First of all, it wasn't really part of the strategic row itself, it could only really be independent. And that in itself could paint a problem because you would publish a list of paths across people's land and they would be very upset that that path was on there. It wasn't feasible to get everyone's agreement before that path went on the list. That will take that day. It became one of those things that would be very difficult to do, that was easy just at a small unitary level. So we're not proposing at this stage to include a list we haven't. It would probably make more sense in a strategic point of view to identify areas where there seems to be a lack, include those as a strategic look at. One obvious law is urban fringes where I would be looking possibly at an opening up or you don't have to specifically say where, but it becomes at a principle that then we go on to a more tactical level.
• When you come to the actual implementation, I totally agree, that is the best way of adding it. So it's like I'm in through that we need more around urban fringes or we need a better way to link across the walls at the top.
• Yeah, those sort of areas.
• Yeah, rather than this part, the cross misted really has lapped, you know?
• I really hope there isn't someone called Mr. Pickett.
• Yes, in fact, I was going to make the very similar points to the one that Ian has made and I absolutely endorse this thinking about the strategic and think about the tax. But you asked what we think the future need would be. I think you can sum it up on a number of fairly true statements like latency that we need a vast amount of additional data which will kind of get in the way or plug up the process. But if I were to distill one particular aspect into a single word, that word would be network. If you look at a map of our public rights way, be they foot puzzle, be they bridal ways, they are rooted in history, often very ancient history, but they served a purpose. They were brought into being because at that time they served a purpose. And if you look at that map now, they've got lots of little stubs that actually go nowhere. They may have made sense a long time ago, but they don't necessarily make a huge amount of sense now. Now, this can be clearly what I'm not saying at all is that we should somehow value them less and not fight to preserve them and all the rest of it because of course we should. They're the inheritance that we are charged with looking after and handing on. But it does seem to me when we look at the title of this document, by the way, I think it's very good. And when we look at ways of achieving things to do with both the section art, which looks at analysis by user group and the sections looking at thematic chapters, that is to try and make the network with the've got or the resource that we've got more joined up literally as well as thematically and strategically. That may operate at a local level. And I think we make a very good point about open fringe. It may operate at a less than local level. So I'm not saying, for example, when you just look at the local use as well, that making more sense of the map might help us when we look at the 1800 miles of public footclass resource that we've got object in Lincolnshire plus what we've got in one of these things. It might help us perhaps to prioritize and direct our thinking when we ask ourselves what do we want to do to improve this network? Literally joining things up for pedestrians, for horse riders, and let's not forget the cyclists because they're really, really, really far better cycle routes than we've got. It is terrifying getting on a bike. Remembering the executive of this council persuading me to go out to Giant and buy a bike about seven or eight years ago now, which I do use unlike her and she can do 50 miles on the road like they're about 50 yards. I get really frightened cycling on a road. I'm very lucky that in my district ward, near where I live, I'm just close to Lincoln. I can drive for five minutes or 10 minutes and I can access the riverside way and there are other cycle paths. We need more of those. But the theme that I would look for in terms of realizing the outcome is a more joined up system. So we should set ourselves that target that at the end of five or 10 years or however we don't, we should look at ways in which we're going to set assess how do we succeed at all? How do we not? We should be able to say we've actually joined this up more and that that has encouraged greater level views because if you build it, they will come. And a lot of it is there, you can't get it there. We can make a recommendation. I don't know if you're aware of the organisation's slow ways.
• Have we heard of slow ways?
• It's a national re-map organisation which is trying to produce and encourage people to use routes from housing areas, villages, cities to the next one and to triangulate them so that they go in a circular way. They're building up an amazing database which encourages people to say whether it's accessible to wheelchair users, cyclists, walkers, whatever. They say where there are refreshments on the route, on bridges, styles, how wide they are, all those sort of local knowledge which is really important. And if we can use them to, as a link, maybe on website so that people can find out more about the footpaths before they go so that they can plan, am I going to be able to make this route or are there cattle in the field halfway along? It's that sort of information which will encourage them.
• And as Councillor just mentioned, is there a route not going to be there because there's a break-in and you've just reminded me the kind of thing you're talking about. I know the ramblers often talk about the steeple steeple paths which are usually historic and they will often find if you're walking on one of these old routes, you see the steeple in the distance and you can imagine maybe 200 years ago people walking across open fields and they were heading towards that steeple and that's how it came to be where it is and it often follows a very natural route.
• Tim, through you, I think it isn't that raises me an enormously important point by the way I'm familiar with.
• They email you to sign up to the matter and you get an email about once every five down minutes with a bit of a route, but nevertheless, they are already an important resource for you.
• The point that I take is that when we assess the success of the road, it's not simply in terms of what assets have we preserved or created and how it looks on the map. It is the practical usability and the level of use that we facilitate and encourage, which should ultimately be the standard by which we're judged.
• Although they do contact one, remorselessly, they are very good on social media and that introduces a whole new generation of people absolutely accessing the countryside.
• Just one point, I know, to all the officers we've seen two maps a day, which are typical of rights of blame apps, and they just show the public full pass and bridle this, and they don't show up the roads. And it produces rather a nonsensical appearance. I've seen so many of these and you're not, you're not the chief fenders in this, so it's for other people, because often I know what it's about, it's a complete dead end. And actually, it ties into a very quiet, public road, it's got very nice tears.
• And I do think that in preparing the rights of blame, the relic, can we bring into it the minor roads somehow? And in particular, I'm always saying, this is Lincoln's here, we have quite a lot of, a lot of very quiet roads have walled, but verges, ideal for horses, so you just want to roll them a bit. And you've got a quiet safe route to walk along, if a car comes, you can step off onto the verges and just look, I'm not that many cars, huh?
• One thing that as a cyclist I would like to see is where footpaths are clearly sustainable for cycle flight, farm tracks and things. It'd be really good to see them upgrade, you see you can legally ride them. And that's because I noticed the, the, the ration very, you put up earlier, it was very much in favor of footpaths. And the making route, certainly one of the reasons I got into mountain bike was to take the children off-road, so they didn't have to ride on the road. And the more off-road routes that link up the better, some of them, that would be significantly proven just by the simple change from a footpath right away to a, to a rider, but it would also obviously, it would be awesome if you were finding GMAs.
• We would appreciate that as well. And just to add to that, I think, although active travel obviously isn't the, isn't part of the, the relative view, but, but we do need to be mindful of it because active travel rates can be opportunities, but they can also provide dead ends, particularly for equestrians. And then find themselves sandwiched between the footway, cycleway and road. And so we are appropriate. We would want to see that activity both active travel routes not become some cold sac routes. And also there's the concern about sort of roadifying our off-road routes with the extension of Tarmac here. They're in everywhere. And again, that might be appropriate in places and must welcome others.
• It's just gone half past. I think that I like to keep making it into two hours. As everyone starts getting tired. And so it shouldn't take two more things to come. So I think I'd like to move on and deal with them now. So come to slide for all of that to go on the routes.
• Yeah, please. Yeah, I think one thing you touched on really on the road is in a premise with our barriers, which is from six. So what we're trying to do in a rough travel act is to develop an interactive screen for the public. So they know where, where the barriers are, what the barriers are, and what the problems are with the barriers. That's what I'd like to see in Lincolnshire. And then everybody has a choice. You can see right now, in fact, you can actually go on that particular route. Big route, that's suitable to them. And actually England, I've had out during the last couple of weeks, have actually been working on something like this, some time ago, it didn't get anywhere. But what I'm trying to do now is to have a look and see what they had in terms of heading's potential. We don't miss anything out. Also, I'll go on, sorry, there is.
• Not quite clear what it is that you're describing again. The time of access to get to the drone.
• Yeah, but sorry.
• So when you are on the public, prior to going into a public right of way, if there's a website, you're going to keep them up.
• Yes, it'll tell you where the barriers are, where the legal barriers are, what types they are. And that's something we're missing in terms of, we don't know in Lincolnshire, where the barriers are, what they are at the moment. And that was something that I was asking Andrew to look at and give us an next meeting.
• Absolutely, well, I can give you a quick update now. 'Cause I'm working with Debbie on that is that we are looking at utilizing the countryside volunteers that we've got, where we've got our IT team, looking at solutions where they'll be able to go out with their own smartphones, map furniture for us when they're doing their general walks. So that we could take all that information that they've got, straight into our system and effectively rebuild what we had some years ago, of an asset management system. I'm very interested to see what slow ways are doing as well, because it may be that that might be a solution as well. But effectively, it links into the fact that we don't currently know, I can't give you lovely figures about how many styles of gates we've got, because we don't know at this point, we do need to rebuild that data set. So we are working on it. I don't agree with you, it's to have that information where people can make their own decisions is what we're aiming at, rather than trying to dictate this route is disabled, accessible and this route is not, because disabled users aren't really, it's not as user group as such, because each person has their own individual needs. It's much better to keep up the information and make their own choice and decision. So we are working on that, very interesting of all the information we're having in as well. So, what I'd like to do is the next meeting in October, or prior to that, really, is to send round what we've got from Russia, so that we can make sure we're not missing anything out. And probably if we work together, I'm not saying they're a new actor, I'm not saying Rutland and Lincolnshire, we can reduce the costs, 'cause we've already got funding foreheads, could reduce the cost for Lincolnshire, and see where we can go from there.
• Absolutely, I think we'll start exploring that, so we'll take an action to look at doing it. It comes down to a technical, how are they doing it and else it's just work, but we'll look at how they're doing it to see whether or not there is something that's from our perspective, off the shelf that we can flatten into. But certainly, we came to the conclusion that we and I, we have, believe about 80 odd volunteers, 70 odd, 60, is it 60 now?
• I think at the moment, we're on 72.
• All right.
• Just something that we have in the room today, so...
• So, they are an excellent...
• This is the start to really help us drive forward this without necessarily having to buy in consultants, so I think, yeah, absolutely.
• Kevin, I was just trying to do the mental maths, dividing 72 into 1800 milk marks, but then I thought, No, don't do that.
• It's not something I can spend a lot of time searching for, but I understand that there are parts of the country where there's pretty good, almost constant coverage, because there are users who go out, photograph paths, and put them on my website. I think you can go out, you can see what condition that path is on. There's nothing like seeing a picture, if you're thinking, Oh, can I cope with that? And then you can see, I think even if it's six months old, as long as you know, it's six months old, and it might be yesterday, in which case, that would be great, but it was such a potential for this.
• What I recall doing is probably around 20 years ago,
• It sounded out, you know, before we met a camera in, we got me a telephone. And I recommend that you contact parish councils and invite them to do this. Certainly the ones I speak to on a reasonably regular basis would more than be more than willing to do the imagery, you know, and send it off to Debbie or whatever you want it to go. It seemed their best interest. I can imagine that you might have a figure on this.
• By all these users, you know, the network, turned to long years, but I mean, the problem might be that to have it usable, you're gonna have somebody sort of editing it, stopping you getting overloaded with too many things. But I'm not sure.
• I put something similar in place, albeit for working at the system, allowed them to map the point on their map based on their GPS to the player. It would ask them a few simple questions, what type of gate to use and stuff. A little bit of text at the end, they could enter what they wanted. And it was around us association who did this for us. They all went out because, and I'll say that a lot of the volunteers they're already out there using those parts anyway. Yeah. They all went out, they mapped it all. The level of information you got back at the time was phenomenal, but it went directly into our database systems so that we didn't have to manually input it ourselves. There was some cleansing to do, but most of the time that was pretty easy, because one field doesn't know the only one they could really change. Working has got a data set that will tell you the width of every squeezed style and gap that they've got. A level of information that would be amazing, to the centimeter level, because they were so particular. It was fantastic. And the people who did it have got a real ownership of that task and they like it. So if you can imagine, yeah, it doesn't allow it, and so it can be done. It's just a case of what can be done with the systems that we've got that work. So, okay, just to finish up on this one, then. Yeah. Thank you for yourself. It was from Laura with my maths. That's been back into the all probably a countryside for all three of us, and freesting sure ones for those that's new members on the corner of that table. The other thing was, can you give us an update on the route from the road and customer bridge to the bathroom canal in terms of is it on the definitive map? Yeah. I don't think so. It won't be enough. I'll tell you why. It's actually already part of the adopted highway level. So it's already considered highway. I couldn't add it to the map. The issue we got there before we made physical changes, I'm waiting for confirmation of the land on that, that they are happy for people to use it. I don't want to open it up because what it does is as soon as we prepare the gate and fix that little bit apart, I am directing people onto private land. I don't want them to get upset, just stop them at that point. So I'm just waiting for their final confirmation that they're happy with that. But that's the bit I haven't received yet. Can you take a bit higher up the canal for the trust to get an answer? 'Cause we're having problems as well in terms of conversing with them, getting them on that video, doing stuff that is, please, that's rare. But I can't believe it's already high part of the verge of the road, if I get it. Anyone's interested around here in helping me help people that have got the missing mobility to get out in the countryside. I really appreciate you, too. Get in touch with me, and I can tell you what is available. It's been so probably only till you're 20 minutes a week. Really helps out. 'Cause if we carry on as we are doing, from next year, we're going to have to, got no, no more volunteers coming forward. No funding from it forward. And if we need help, and if we don't get that help, people with limited mobility are going so far.
• Thank you. That's all I've got to say for that, apart from, sorry, fifth o'clock is making it some roots round. I'm not following them. I'm certain that maybe suitable for another countryside I've probably thought is what's the time I've come today? I apologize for that, but it's just a fabulous work for me. So hopefully next time, we can see what is done. You're the next one as well. And most of us are going to invest today.
• It's an issue for us. Is that the one?
• Yeah.
• So if you remember, Chris, before we used to spend quite a lot of time on that at the meetings. And I was just thinking, right, can we have a simple report telling us what the status is rather than missing the book? Let's have a summary. And the summary being what whatever I've said here, basically, to make it short, to make it about a lot of everyone to see, to make it available so as we can understand how you move in forward and preferably as sort of 12-month roll and report. So on a monthly basis, you just issue it out to us. So we don't have to spend so much time on it at each meeting and can look at other things.
• You're talking about the table.
• Yeah, Chris, maybe you've got a yes or the state of play, which was great. But it sort of sucked everybody into specific paths which took a bit of time to get with people who would look at the table. And so what about this path? What's that for that? It's one local preventable.
• Yeah.
• So what we're interested in really is, as you said, the oldest, what's happening to them when it's likely to move to the next stage.
• Are you familiar with what we're talking about?
• I haven't seen it before, it's not itself. I mean, we're a big subject. I've talked to Chris about what you think.
• Yeah.
• 'Cause it ties in what we're talking about before and I don't want to go back there about having tabular displays, which we didn't want to get. It tended to lead us, as you said, down into specific ones and get distracted by that. But it's for somebody in a dangerous position to be able to look at that table and see crucially, like I said, which ones are the oldest family in the world, is important. But you're talking about a way in which we can engage with the defensive path on those risks and advise without us being led down over the private rabbit hole kitchen but they don't know as far as I can.
• Yeah.
• But I don't know if it's been concerned, I'd tell that problem. (laughs)
• Well, in terms, I've got no problem in client providing figures, but what I'm trying to avoid is having a lot of reports to the lab, which are just to note that don't go anywhere. Because they don't, they are, yeah, they, there isn't a give me all the reports database button. They call it the DMMO database, but if I'm honest, it's just a really big Excel sheet. So, yeah, they're managing, not wanting that.
• Yeah, so a monthly report would be difficult for us to actually do that. It'd be a fairly large resource admin task that I can't take.
• Can I ask on that then, how you manage it? And maybe we can have something like that so you don't have to do so much work with it. Because obviously, it's in our interest that you're doing the work rather than doing reports for us.
• Yes, exactly the point I was making. I don't want to burden the dead map team with anything other than, you know, I'm looking to lean thinking effectively, trying to cut out all the stuff they don't need to do. And that includes putting a cap of exactly how far they would go down to investigate because not every case needs to look at the 18 to 13 parish minutes. Be happy to think about what we can do. I don't think I'm able to answer immediately now so that what I'd like to think about, perhaps it's a discussion in... What is the life going to do with that information? And is it, you know, basically going to think what's coming back at it, to avoid the sort of to note reports that don't care anything about what we're doing.
• Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• Absolutely not to do that.
• Certainly not looking to, you know, restrict access into the connection. I'm just looking at trying to explore where else that goes. So for example, if the forum said, part of our work program this year is we want to look at being emotional and how we're doing it and advising, then it would be appropriate for me to then provide that information to enable those lack of discussion. But to provide it, we're not looking at it, it seems a bit of a waste to ever want to make sure that we've got a purpose for it. You refer to the spreadsheet. Is that a spreadsheet that was prepared each time for us wants to make a report here, and updated then, or this is one which will automatically routinely update every time and all that, as is a process, a legal process, does somebody automatically just go on the side, just update the spreadsheet. It is routinely updated, but it contains information that can't release such as the names and addresses and things like that. So every time it needs to be released, there's a certain amount of processing that has to happen. Things have to be redacted. I much prefer the idea of numbers because from the data protection point of view, we are getting down into the nitty gritty, but we're also not releasing names and addresses. I've just thought about that because there's in the statute, there's a right to see the documentation and there's not a lot which falls within the data protection act in the paperwork. And there's a background correspondence that feels like that. There's a certain amount of case law that's moved on from there in terms of what we're able to provide and when we provide it. So the when we provide it is the key. So a lot of the stuff comes down as background information only at the point when it comes to a public inquiry, things like that. So there's a lot of stuff in there which probably we don't want to get into the detail now. No, no, no, no. I did go through with detail exactly what we need to provide. It's not quite as clear cut as being able to release it. Yeah, but okay. I'm aware of the time getting on. Does anyone have any questions or comments on that? I think you've got the next one, John, as well.
• Yes, pretty one again. And in terms of the countryside pool, if that's we're printing, or have been printed this year, I think it's about 10,000, something like that. Sorry, 13,000. It's a perfect opportunity to have the local accessible and mentioned on there in terms of, if you want to find out more about the local accessible, go to our new webpage. And obviously we need some more information going on that, like the page, make it interesting, and to make people aware about what we're doing. Obviously our new terms of reference that we produce that will be helpful. That's something that reminded would be about June time that it will first leave this will go out. And all we've got at the moment, which is considering more than what we have, is a webpage, and we've got, let's do uses, I believe. I think maybe about it as well.
• Yeah, so that's populated through one of our systems, which we've got one of them for every meeting of the council. We can't attach documents. We can put a little bit of text on there, but I don't know whether the best thing to do if we wanted to add quite a bit more detail or documents and things would be to refer to maybe one of the public rights of way pages. We'd need an actual webpage, because it runs through a different browser, not the county council website. So we can add a link on there. We can add a little bit more information, but in terms of adding documents and things, we can't do that on that page. I think you've got some web pages within your...
• Let's do that. There is some scope to hand a webpage on there. There's been some regulations on government web pages over the last few years, which has changed and simplified what we're able to show, and it must not be overly complex to the point where some of the government mandated forms that people have to use don't pass the necessary qualifications to go on local government web pages anymore, to show them. I certainly agree that if you want the board to succeed, having a presence that enables it to say what it does is very helpful. But things like, for example, the minutes of the meeting wouldn't actually pass the test for web pages, only because they go through the committee pages that I think ought to do. I don't know where they are, I would need these to say, that's something that we dragged map in. Oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah.
• Trust with North East, to be quite honest. (laughing)
• Yeah, we have got web pages, but Adam, this is as you say, it's difficult. What you can share.
• There is a digital team that we've got that produce web pages for me, all of these and challenges. So certainly, if we've got content, it's a case of passing it over, it's meant to create a web page. It's great because it doesn't mean I need to find, it was almost tonic after it. So I think it would be quite good to have something on the left. In terms of the leaflets that you've got in your report, Debbie, I believe they will visit Lincolnshire as the, yeah, it says for it, isn't it?
• All the promoting information, all the walk leaflets, countryside for all leaflets, and biking way information and all now, on the visit Lincolnshire website. So that's visit Lincolnshire.com. They've all transferred from the County Council website onto there.
• We need a left page to explain what the left does, link to the committee, link to visit Lincolnshire, and then that allows us a screen board for its month. So this is something we can actually grow on and something that the left can actually have put to the center of the relationship.
• Yeah, I'm happy to say forward, yeah, creating the local access or reintegrating, I'm sure it had a web page before, but it was probably some of us.
• Wasn't too much on that, really.
• I'm not an expert in the new rules for web pages, except for the fact that I only know they existed, everything I've liked is deemed too complicated.
• Keeps it. (laughing)
• Then you know it's, you keep falling fouls, the rules, but I can't speak with this.
• Chairman Street, could I propose, I think we all agree with the sentiment, that the practicalities are going to take some inspiration, but I propose that if colleagues are happy with it, we just ask Andrew to go away and investigate what the art of the possible is, because clearly, it centers into technical areas, which most of us are probably very fortunate not to have to get involved in. Right, I'm touched on that.
• Yeah, it was just second question, yes. Well, I'm sorry. I don't think we need to go on the boat on that, I think.
• I'm happy to be happy.
• Is that okay to ask?
• No, we've got the last item, if we were pro, why in view of what we were just saying, but I think probably the obvious thing that we need, is people looking for the surroundings, technical people of the environment. That's a rush of people going into that. But what I was going to suggest is something, thank you for a long time.
• Can we have set up four, which is very difficult, a group, a discussion group, an online discussion group, for the lab members, so that we can easily just carry on that, discussions afterwards. How do people feel about that?
• It's a sensible idea, I think, yes. Because I think what happens is, it's very difficult to keep up the momentum. You kind of think, oh, yes, there's all these ideas, six things to be moving, we go away, none of those, including me and the channel, really know what to do after that, and we come back, sort of, you know, months later, I think we haven't really done anything. I think, just as, at least it would get at least some of us talking to each other, and it might work, it might not, and something might come out of it. But I think we're just the right size of an online group, that will be enough to get enough people to be involved, for it to be genuine exchange of views, and that's sparking ideas of each other, and not too big to be unmanageable.
• Like a WhatsApp group?
• Yeah, obviously, the ones I know are Google groups, but these two are quite a lot of me.
• The meetings, a new member of it, the meetings seem to be every six months.
• Yes.
• That's a long, that's a long time.
• Exactly.
• We go away from a full of enthusiasm.
• That's an absolute waste in six months' time, we've forgotten what we're doing.
• Well, no, we need something.
• Yeah, we all go this great, and for the time, we've gone online tomorrow morning, I've dealt with all the emails we've had, we're probably well as happy.
• Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
• That's what happens to everything. Yeah.
• Well, yeah, we're looking to what exactly you should do.
• I mean, yeah.
• Is that one of ourselves, but I think it would be far better to have it, that we're doing a system that counts as a living system.
• We, but we use this SharePoint system internally. So we can investigate where the lab works.
• We need to be careful that it's compatible with everybody's, and that's about all known computers. Sometimes things are peculiar to the system.
• Yes, that's right. And natural England were moving over from their hubble system, which they created for each local access form, and they never seem to get used.
• Yeah, yeah.
• And they threatened going over to SharePoint, and I heard that it was happening, but didn't hear anything more, because it's our monist, natural England going fits and starts in terms of its interest area, I think. At the moment, they are England first, past century. But one then, we'll explore.
• You can do it.
• I like how they did it.
• Having a group that was a temporary member of every local access form in the country, all over with totally different levels of knowledge, all contradicting it, but it didn't work. (laughs)
• I like the idea.
• I think there should be some ground rules if you do do that, because the, my experience of those things, they can get hijacked by people with, you know, start discussing their holidays on them and all sorts of things.
• Yeah, absolutely. Well, you have a manager, and that's the group I have done for a long time, but we don't have any of that problem, really. I did early on, I have to sort of clean up probably for long fallen treatment for them.
• Yeah.
• But with a group like this, every body is more or less coming from the same place, you know, so it's not the big problem. You don't get to just badly, but I can't see it being a problem. I don't have some experience.
• No, I don't. (laughs)
• Oh, well, we've got the next week final item. That's which already is, oh. That's a little out of date, doesn't it? Okay, that was carried over on the previous agenda. So here was the next meeting that's meeting.
• Oh.
• Oh, sorry, not 25, wait a minute.
• Yeah, we've scored, we've got in the diary it's going to set in October.
• Yeah.
• But there's two of the dates for 22nd of April 2025 and the 14th of October 2025, it's just helpful to get them in the diary as soon as we can.
• Could you just say those again?
• And it will propose in the 22nd of April 2025 and Tuesday the 14th of October 2025.
• And the 14th, yeah, got it.
• Yeah, 27 October 24 as well.
• Yeah. - Yeah.
• If everyone's happy. First to put them in the diary.
• When the beginning just passed in April, what situation but the championship?
• And we've approved the terms of reference. We do have in there that it will be a three-in term for the championship that was in the terms of reference.
• But we will have to start that period.
• Yeah, so we are going to have to start that whether you want to do it in April. Next, where are we? And yeah, it'll be the next meeting, so I'll do it the next meeting, yeah.
• Well, I'll declare the meeting closed. I'm trying to go on to hang around with the chat so I want to take some of these, hang up.
• Thank you.
• Thank you too, thank you. (indistinct chatter) (indistinct chatter)
• Yeah, it's, it's fine, that's fine.