Transcript

a few moments of quiet contemplation and reflection. Good morning and welcome to this meeting of County Council, our first of the summer recess. I will now run through some housekeeping rules. Social media, in line with our guidance on the use of social media, I'm happy for anyone attending to this meeting, including members of the Council, to use social media, provided this does not disturb the business of the meeting. Mobile phones, please turn mobile phones on silent. Webcast, members, please may I remind you that this meeting is being webcast live, although I have the right to suspend filming if the need arises and it is open to the public. Microphones, members will have to indicate that they wish to speak through the chair and when called, use your microphone to speak. Please remember to turn this off after you have spoken. Fire drill, there's no fire drills expected, so in the event of fire alarm sounding, everyone present is asked to leave by the nearest exit and assemble at the top car park, reporting to member of the building management team. Staff will be on hand to guide you to your nearest exit. Speaking rules, those that can, please stand when addressing the Chair and Council. Speeches will be time limited as usual. We will be using the timer light system. A clock will appear in the corner of the screen when member has 30 seconds remaining. The clock will change to amber and the member's time is up. Clock will flash red. Voting will be by raising your hands or by verbal assent. I will confirm how voting will be done for each item as we go through the agenda. Item 1, apologies of absence. Thank you, Chair. Apologies have been received from Jordan Beach, Angela Goodwin, Nick Darby, Will Forster, Marissa Heath, David Lewis, Kimberly West, Scott Lewis, Cameron McIntosh, Penny Rivers, Mark Sugden and Fiona White. We are expecting Mark Sugden to attend remotely. He has speaking rights, but no voting rights. Thank you, Chair. Any other apologies? Minutes of the last meeting pages 11 to 34 of the agenda. May I sign the minutes of Council meeting held on 9th of July, 2024 as a correct record of meeting. Thank you. Thank you. Decorations of interest. Are there any declarations of disclosable pecuniary interest, significant personal interest or musical interest that members wish to make at this point? That's good. Cheers announcements. I would like to welcome Council's new Chief Executive, Terence Herbert. I'm also so sorry to start today's meeting with the very sad news that Wyatt Ramsdale, former County Councillor for Farnham South from 2016 to 21 passed away at the end of September. Wyatt's passing followed a long term, long and brave battle with cancer. What will be solely missed? Let's take a moment to remember our friend and colleague. My full announcement can be found in the Council agenda front pages. Although we did this Sunday, remember the Guildford bombing, the 50 year anniversary and a service took place and it was very touching that we were able to remember and the family laid flowers. Mr Chairman, Members. Here we are back again together for the first time since early July with the intervening months having seen some fundamental changes within this organisation with our new Chief Executive settling in and getting familiar with the people, the place and indeed the idiosyncrasies of Surrey. So welcome to your first Council meeting Terence. We're delighted to have you with us and I can already sense the positive impact that you're having even just seven weeks into the role. I'd also like to take this opportunity to welcome our new Executive Director for Adults, Wellbeing and Health Partnerships, Claire Edgar, who started work yesterday and I'm sure you've wasted absolutely no time and already up to speed, at least I hope so. And there's another important development in the leadership of this Council came last week in the announcement that Andy Brown will be joining us next week as our new Executive Director for Finance and Corporate Services, as our Section 151 Officer and our Deputy Chief Executive. A vital role in challenging times and I'm delighted that we managed to attract Andy to Surrey. These changes, the appointments of really experienced officers with excellent track records of delivery, demonstrate Surrey's pull as a place and as an organisation. We are a serious large Council with high ambitions and a strong reputation. Terence, Claire and Andy, along with our talented wider leadership team, will drive this organisation even further forward at pace, help us to continually improve and ensure that we are delivering the vital services the people of Surrey rightly deserve. Mr Chairman, there may be change at the top but there will be continuity in terms of our ambition and our mission as an organisation. As I've said many times at this meeting, we are a Council that does not shirk a challenge. We stand up to be counted, we identify where we need to improve and we roll up our sleeves and get on with it. We are ambitious, we're focused, innovative and determined. It is that attitude that has got this organisation through some huge challenges over the past few years and it is that attitude that is going to see us through the challenges we currently face as a Council and as a wider local government sector. The burning issue we currently face, like every other public sector body, is a financial one. Local government is facing financial pressures like never before. Demand is accelerating and the cost of delivering everything from care packages to pothole repairs is higher than ever and still rising. The County Council's network analysis released last week showed that Councils in the UK face a cumulative funding gap of a massive £54 billion over the next five years. That is a fundamental problem for society in this country. The Councils like this one are going to be tasked with solving. Central government's finances are stretched and their priorities seem to lie elsewhere, however acute the need is in frontline service delivery. It is our responsibility to do everything we possibly can to balance our budget and balance the needs of our residents. We must and do scrutinise every penny of public money that we spend to ensure that it is delivering the best possible outcomes for the people of Surrey. We are not a Council that does things because we've always done things that way. If we need to change, we do. If there are better ways to deliver services, we'll do it. If new challenges appear, we adapt to overcome them. If outside forces change the climate in which we work, we will recognise that and deal with it. Mr Chairman, we are having to do that absolutely right now. The financial pressures are real and there is no magic wand or government top-up on its way to close the budget gaps Councils are facing up and down the country. We must stand up and face the reality head-on as we always do. I have every confidence in the people of this organisation and our new leadership to adapt, innovate, be decisive and be bold. We are in a stronger position financially than many Councils thanks to our transformation of financial management over the last five or six years. But we are not immune. We must go again, be bold in our transformation programmes and strict with our spending. But we must not lose sight of what has enabled us to improve as an organisation to this point. Ambition and focus on our guiding principles, supporting those who need us most and ensuring that no one is left behind. That means that difficult choices will have to be made across services. Things have to be done differently or in some cases not done at all, where they are not a priority. Government will have to support Councils in a programme of reform, ultimately providing the investment and incentivisation to drive preventative activity and provide the resources to deliver early support and intervention. No Council can do this on their own. But if we don't innovate, we will simply be Councils reduced to delivering basic statutory services. Our residents deserve more. So we will continue to lobby Government for flexibility for greater devolution, for statutory reform across the system and push for fiscal devolution. And more of that in a minute. For our own part, we'll embrace technology, we'll drive out inefficiency, we'll operate as one Council with collective responsibility for our budget and our objectives. The public trusts us with their money. We must be extremely careful with it and ensure every penny is spent appropriately. We have a responsibility to be sustainable and ultimately still be here delivering services long into the future. I know that we can do this while still improving as an organisation and still improving outcomes for residents. We've done it before and we'll do it again. Because we have good people with bright minds and the right attitude, officers and members dedicated to public service and the belief in Surrey. That bold thinking and ambition must not be confined to this organisation however. We must encourage others to be bold and to look outwardly for opportunities to be more effective and efficient together. A great example of that approach came last month with the signing of our Civic Agreement with the County's three leading universities, University of Surrey, Royal Holloway, University of London and the University of Creative Arts. By pooling resources and expertise and working together towards shared goals and a collective vision for Surrey, we can better address local needs, drive innovation and create a more resilient county fit for the future. Mr Chairman, this is place leadership. This is drawing on all the local expertise, knowledge, passion and resources to collectively drive better outcomes for our residents and indeed our businesses here in Surrey. We can and must do more. We've now had an indication from the current government that our county deal agreement will be endorsed and delivered, cementing Surrey's geography and recognising our prominent role in driving growth and opportunity here. This is good news, but I sincerely hope there is more to come in terms of devolution from central government. I've had some very constructive discussions with our districts and borough partners, with government officials through both Surrey and the County Council's network and I'm encouraged that there is a collective will to deliver more powers and opportunities through further devolution measures. I will of course remain totally engaged and committed to that agenda on behalf of this council and the people of Surrey working with our district and borough colleagues. I now want to say something about SEND and those children with additional needs. I know that there are families that believe that this council has let them down. We have and for that I apologise, as I have done on a number of occasions in this public forum. I do not and will not defend the indefensible, but it is only fair that there is also recognition of the progress we have made on our improvement journey. The Independent Joint Area Review found many examples of good practice, but that there was inconsistency in the way we were delivering some of those services and experiences to families and children. However, the Department for Education and Ofsted endorsed our recovery plan, the plan that we are currently working through and against which we report progress both to the DFE and to our own select committee. I'm not going to run through all those improvements, but the starting point was to clear the backlog of assessments and by investing some millions of pounds to do that, we are now averaging nearly 70% completion on time against a national benchmark of 50%. Of course, we will keep working to hit 100%, but there needs to be recognition that there are other partners also need to step up to deliver an education, health and care plan. We're also investing 250 million pounds in our SEND capital program, creating nearly 6,000 specialist school places across the county. This is in addition to the DFE's commitment to build four new specialist free schools. Around 260 specialist school places were made available by this authority last month at the start of the new academic year. Creating hundreds more places in specialist units in mainstream schools and a capital program of hundreds of millions to build specialist schools is well underway, but whilst we have to relentlessly drive improvements in local delivery, we know that the rising cost of specialist placements and home-to-school transport is an issue facing every single upper tier authority in this country. That is why there is cross-party support through the local government association and the county council's network for reform of the system. Reform that will be challenging but essential if we are to improve outcomes for children, something the current system often fails to do. So yes, we absolutely need to improve our communications with parents and families. Yes, we absolutely need to get this right first time, every time. And yes, we must absolutely focus on giving all children the very best start in life and whatever support is appropriate to meet their needs. And that requires all of us - members, officers, MPs, government ministers - to work collectively, to work with each other, to deliver the best service we can deliver, and that is my ask. There isn't any single person that speaks in this space that doesn't want the very best for our children. And galvanizing that energy and knowledge to look at what we as a whole society need to do should be and must be what drives the conversations. Let's focus on solutions. Solutions that reflect a very different country from the part that post-war when much of the legislation backs dates to, very different from 2014 when the last set of major reforms were enacted, and of course very different post-Covid. Here at Surrey we will continue to do all that we can as an administration and indeed as a council to get this right whilst engaging in the national conversations as nothing, nothing could be more important than the health, the well-being, and the happiness of our children as they progress into adulthood. Another area that is showing continued progress, and we are focusing much of our transformation efforts on, is adult social care. This is our biggest area of spend as a council and a statutory responsibility we of course take extremely seriously. We have recently been visited by the Care Quality Commission for more external scrutiny. That inspection process went well. Again we welcome that challenge and indeed we look forward to receiving their report very soon. Whatever the outcome of that inspection we will not stop improving. But Mr Chairman I want to end on a positive note. Four years ago next month this administration embarked on a mission to deliver ambitious meaningful improvements in communities right across Surrey, investing in improvements that were rooted in community action, things that local people wanted and needed, things that would deliver benefits to the whole community, and that would leave a legacy in Surrey's towns and villages. Through Your Fund Surrey we have asked communities to think big, to join up and join in, and working together to make it happen. And make it happen we have swimming pools, tree planting, community cafes, shops and gardens, football, cricket, rugby, gymnastics and other sports facilities, new village halls, inclusive playgrounds, scout huts, wildlife centres, creative arts facilities. Your Fund Surrey has delivered. We've given local communities over 20 million pounds across 45 different projects, all having a demonstrable and long-term impact on people's health and well-being and quality of life. Surrey's communities are thriving and that is something we should do, we should all be collectively proud of. Mr Chairman this council is delivering for the people of Surrey. We should be proud of how far we've come and we must use that motivation to go further and at pace. There is more to do and more to improve, we know that. There are big challenges to overcome and tough decisions to make. There is a new government with a new agenda. There are world events outside of our control that nevertheless have a significant impact on our residents. But these are not new challenges, these are challenges that this council, this county and local government takes in its stride and we will. Nothing should distract us from delivering our ambition, but no one in this county will be left behind. Thank you. Thank you leader. I now call on Paul Fallows. It's follows Mr Chairman, but good morning. Mr Chairman, fellow members of the council, officers and guests, good morning. This is my first time addressing you in this new capacity and I wanted to take this opportunity to say hello and to introduce myself to you and talk a little bit about how I intend to approach this new role and what I believe in. Can I start though by thanking my predecessor Will Forster for all of his work as our group leader. Will of course is making his mark now as the first Liberal Democrat MP for Woking and I'm sure that all of us of all parties will recognise the positives of having someone in parliament who recognises the challenges of local government in general and the challenges of this county council. In this I'm sure the leader of the county and I are in total lockstep. The challenges faced by local government are extreme and there must be national level change to enable counties such as Surrey to continue to support its residents. The Liberal Democrat group will continue to support and lobby for that change and it is my sincere hope that the new chancellor will not bind herself to the economic and fiscal rules set by her predecessors and unlock the capacity to deliver that real change. She has inherited significant public sector debt and underfunded public infrastructure over the last 15 years. She has a serious job on her hands but I agree with the leader that the local government will continue to need to stand alone at least for the next few years. Devolved powers without funding remain a serious concern to me and the other district and borough leaders. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the officers that I have worked with over the last few years. Something I have been saying to potential candidates across the county over the last few weeks is that Surrey truly has the power to influence often in a fundamental way the lives of over a million people and I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome our new chief executive and also Claire Edgar this morning. Surrey has always been part of who I am and though born in Devon I've actually lived in Surrey now since 1993. I'm about 38 so most of my life. First of all moving around to the army facilities of Surrey with my parents before setting into social housing in Guildford and I attended a state school in Guildford before attending the University of Surrey. Now Surrey was a great place to study and still is but for me it was less of a choice at the time because I remained local to support both of my parents who were suffering from recurring bouts of cancer and who were both still with us today because of the efforts of the Royal Surrey County Hospital and the Fountain Centre that's on the site and it is through personal experience that the state of adult health and social care, the overall management of SEND and the treatment of parents, carers and children by this council are matters to matters which the highest importance to me and the Liberal Democrat group. Now I've been the leader of the Town Council in Goldoming since 2019 and the Borough Council Waverley since 2021 in Goldoming governing jointly with Green and Labour members and at Waverley with the Farnham residents, Labour and Green parties too. I mention these things to give assurance that I will work with whoever I need to to achieve positive outcomes for residents that elected me and all of you and I see it my duty to work with whoever I need to for the common good. I also do so with a particular desire to see the working relationship between the county and the boroughs and districts improve and with a desire to improve resident engagement and understanding of the work that local government does especially in areas where it has three tiers. I believe that local government can be an enabler and I believe that government and its powers and resources should be as close as possible to the communities that they serve. Driving here today with Councillor Townsend reading the daily emails from residents who feel let down by this council on SEND and dodging the potholes and the flooding it struck me that even as a relatively experienced councillor and council leader some aspects of Surrey County Council have always remained slightly incongruous to me. This very large room where I can't see anybody for a start and apologies to all the officers here who were dragooned for another three hours to this and to this without being asked to comment you get me speaking at you because I feel like I need a person to talk to. I look forward to a day where there are more of the issues that matter to the people of Surrey are fully debated here in this room and not in all of the other rooms around this county. Working constructively to fight the challenges external to us and those challenges that are uniquely Surrey in their origin and in particular the way that this council manages SEND highways and climate change. These are issues impacting our residents that are not simply a matter of external funding. Continuous transformation is not the same as continual improvement. It is about how council manages and accepts those issues and learns from them that matters. We must have robust and viable statutory services to ensure that mantra of nobody and more importantly no child being left behind is something that means something real and I say that as somebody who probably was one of those children that was left behind for many many years. I hope to represent a constructive opposition this is a tone my colleagues in parliament are setting with aplomb at the moment and I hope to replicate that here. Tim I hope we can continue our constructive relationship too. What you will see from me members is a willingness to engage where I can to oppose with constructive alternatives where consensus is harder to reach. Opposition for its own sake without alternative solutions is to be honest fairly pointless. It's a waste of my time and it's a waste of your time. It's not what we were elected here to do. Mr chairman members officers guests thank you for indulging me today. I look forward to that constructive respectful debate and I'm sure in time disagreement and I also look forward to getting to know all of you and even though I've been here for nearly four years there are still many of you across this chamber I don't believe I've ever met. I look forward to rectifying that soon so thank you very much for your indulgence. Thank you Mr chairman. Thank you chair. The institute of fiscal studies has estimated the core funding per person from central government to councils was 46 percent lower in 24-25 than it was in 2010-11. There are huge financial strains less spending on prevention and early intervention and now increasing demand on statutory services a vicious cycle that will take a concerted effort to break. Last year the budget task group was clear of the imperative to effectively intervene early and prevent escalating need. My rejected budget amendment from February was aimed at supporting charities providing these services and addressing inequalities. How we work with and value our third sector and our partners is critical to the outcome of our residents. We have amazing groups working across the county running universal youth services some in Surrey buildings they manage those buildings for us providing a service managing the space for other groups and making a small charge to reinvest in those youth services. We have wonderful voluntary groups doing amazing work in our countryside such as the Tysers meadow bird group nearly 6000 volunteering hours in last year alone to maintain and enhance the biodiversity on the site and supporting residents of all ages to value on yet natural world. Yet there are real ongoing strains between the bird group and Surrey officers not one team one dream. In February there were also concerns about the capital budget the cost of proposed borrowing and whether we were focusing that borrowing on the right things. Investing capital to save revenue was supported but I had grave concerns over the affordability of your fund Surrey. The large schemes have funded some amazing projects but the question is could those funds have been targeted at areas of greater need and benefit. Should there have been more focus on areas of deprivation in our country to close the poverty gap and associated inequalities proposed and rejected. Continuing to fund your fund Surrey schemes versus allocating more to send schools proposed as there were clear indications the budget allocated was going to be sufficient but rejected. A subsequent review has identified the costs have increased by 40 percent and the scope has been reduced. What about silos in this council? We have a team and children's dealing with transition from children's to adults and a team and adults dealing with the same transition. Why? Children with physical disabilities have multiple social workers for different things and sometimes the ball is just dropped between them. Complex caseworkers have been previously rejected. Can they be looked at again? The budget review last year of children's services questioned whether the clearing of the backlog providing new send school places and home to school transport have been linked. Sadly some of the current overspend was predicted. What of integrated transport? One of the many transformation programs but do our current strategies really add up. The residents served by DDRT really appreciate them. I do, my mum does and there are some heart warming stories but is this really a good use of public money? Previous suggestions to better leverage successful community transport systems have been rejected. Can this be reconsidered? A single minibus could offer a wider range of services with a mix of commercial council and community provision, commuter and school runs, weekly loops for rural villages to towns and hospitals, evening commercial services, weekend rental to sports and social clubs, not just public transport but cost neutral, carbon emissions lowering and rural community building much better than the current DDRT which currently runs mostly with one or two people. What other areas could we streamline? Today as far as I can tell we have directors in tiers one and two three with comms and engagement in their title, more sorry more directors than we do in children's families and lifelong learning. If we add up customer digital and change as well they account for nearly a third of the total. This simply must be reviewed as part of this year's budget as suggested in February. Finally are we an open, continuously learning and improving council? If something goes wrong do we automatically look at how we can prevent it happening again? Recognising problems, defining them, solving them, streamlining processes, not just putting sticking classes on top of each other that will allow issues to fester and get worse in the long run. Our frontline staff know where the inefficiencies are and the barriers. Some of them are working in the hardest to recruit roles. We must give them the confidence to speak. Knowledge is not power, knowledge is a gift that if you share can only grow. Councillors are also on the front line as residents rarely reach out to us when things are going well, yet increasingly our views and concerns are not being heard. We can and must streamline how we work, eliminating inefficiencies, avoiding duplication, breaking down barriers and silos including with the third sector partners and foster carers. Only by doing this can we make the budget savings we need to and improve things for our residents and I sincerely hope the administration will work with us. Thank you. I now call on Jonathan Essex. Thank you. First let me welcome Terrence Herbert, Surrey County Council's new Chief Executive Officer and Andy Brown, our proposed new Chief Finance Officer, both for Wiltshire's loss and Surrey's gain. In July I raised the results of the Supreme Court ruling that quashed the planning commission to duel for oil at Horse Hill. Yet in July the oil company continued to produce oil at Horse Hill. Leader, in your view is this unacceptable and do you agree it sends out the wrong message about our commitment to our climate targets? In September we responded to the government's proposal to build more homes, more on London's green belt and less in London. Do you agree this is the wrong approach that instead the government should set targets for genuinely affordable homes and allocate funding for these to be delivered on public land including by Surrey County Council? Leader, would you request that the Right Honourable Angela Rayner MP helps us deliver affordable homes on council sites instead of helping developers profit from building over Surrey's countryside? Casework, potholes growing again, delivery drivers parking on pavements but we'll discuss that later. But the biggest concerns still seem to be around home to school transport assistance and send placements. Why is it still taking over 10 days to respond to cases brought to us as councillors to ask about the lack of progress? Indeed the need for effective communication was writ large across the EHCP task forces recommendations. Leader, will you commit that these task force recommendations are implemented now in full with a matter of urgency? Why do we for example expect children with autism to travel three hours a day to and from school with other children without personal assistance? And why five years after agreeing to provide the send school places needed here in our budget is our home to school transport assistance budget gap still growing? How many more send school and post 16 places do we still need that each type of school needs each type of special need in each part of Surrey? Then instead of cutting discretionary home to school transport funding what if we budgeted for the full quota of school and post 16 sending places that we need where they are needed so we can in turn deliver home to school transport within budget. Leader, I offer these questions to you. Thank you. Thank you very much chair. I'd like to thank the leader for another heartwarming speech to get us going this morning and I'd like to associate myself with the welcome to the new chief executive and officers before us today. The leader referred to the new, well not quite so new, but the devolution agreement for Surrey and I have to say despite my approaches to the minister and the government or the department which shows how little influence I actually have, it's not the most far-reaching document that some of us, me included, would like to have seen. That being said there are a few points in it that I would like to ask the leader about this morning and it refers, it follows on from some points that Councillor Essex has just made. On the housing and land sector it says that Surrey County Council will now have a compulsory purchase powers for housing and regeneration purposes. I wonder if he's had any thoughts as to how he envisages using this new responsibility and will he look as I think most of us would want on brownfield and grey belt, brownfields and grey belt sites to start with as there's plenty of those around that could be utilised I feel. Another aspect of it is to do with the adult education budget where it says Surrey will have powers to secure appropriate facilities for further education for adults. Well over the last few years adult education in Surrey has been run down and improvements are certainly required. Has he given any thought at this stage or what does he envisage that the residents might be able to expect from these new powers and responsibilities on adult education? Further on devolution he will know that Somerset, Wiltshire and Dorsey within a combined population of about 1.5 million are looking at forming a joint half of Wessex Unitary Authority with economies of scale. In his thoughts about fiscal devolution has seriously what thoughts has the leader given to the economies of scale with other areas nearby? And finally on send and I'm pleased that he says he won't defend the indefensible because this has been a long-running issue which has scarred Surrey and many of us have divisions where schools and young people, I taught in a special school in Surrey for a while and young people with special needs having a 90 minute or two hour journey across Surrey stuck on the M25 in the mornings in taxis and some of us have been stuck on the M25 coming to these meetings. We know what it's like. This is a long-running issue and I hope very much in the future we can improve this so that we can actually say Surrey is not defending the indefensible and has made real progress on special educational needs. Thank you. I now open this debate to all members. We have three minutes. Any member of these two make a comment on the leader's statement? Thank you. It's hard not to welcome the leader of council's words on special educational needs and provision for children of homeschool transport and all the rest of it. It is welcome to hear that this council is not going to be defending the indefensible and I sincerely hope that action will follow from this as I'm sure the leader intends but nevertheless this is far from the first time we've heard things along these lines. It is far from the first time we've heard speeches of this nature saying that we are determined to get it right. We're determined to do things properly. Yes, there is a national crisis in this area. Yes, this is a common problem to local government across the country. However, there do seem to be, as Paul follows, has referenced some uniquely Surrey dimensions to this problem. I recently had a conversation with residents in my division who and in particular a teenager who is meant to be in the second year of their GCSEs who is now at the start of the third academic year of having not been attending school. Since they had to involve lawyers and take the county council to court in order to get their EHCP produced in the first place, the school tried it, concluded it did not work. They have then taken them a further year, the past year and still ongoing, to go through the process of getting their EHCP reviewed only for the county authorities to turn around and say that the EHCP that the school is saying is not working and that they cannot deliver is perfectly fine and should not be changed. At the same time this pupil who this student, this young person, was offered a potential place at a specialist school within the county which they were not unable to take up because the county refused to fund it. However, a friend of theirs from West Sussex has gone to that very same specialist school in Surrey and the cruelty and unfairness of pupils within Surrey being unable to access facilities that neighbouring counties are sending their young people to is frankly obscene and the worst thing about this in my mind is not the problems but the fact that every step of the way families are being forced to fight the county council just in order to get a decision made and decisions being made far too late and with far too much bureaucracy. I sincerely hope this will change but as I said we've heard too many speeches and bits in the past. I really hope this time we will see some action. I am unfortunately not entirely optimistic. Thank you chairman. I'd like to raise one query with the leader on something he didn't mention in his speech. My division is a rural area. It covers five, six villages and over the years one of the big problems has been the lack of a proper commercial bus service. Often people cannot if they want to go to work in Guildford or elsewhere they haven't been able to access buses to be able to make those journeys. In the last two years the rollout of the direct response bus service introduced and run by Surrey County Council has transformed that situation because there are now within my division three direct response services enabling residents to get to so many more places by bus from seven o'clock in the morning to seven o'clock in the evening Mondays to Fridays and 8 a.m to 6 p.m on Saturdays. A huge change being used by not enough people and I have urged that more be done to publicise this new service but I would like to thank the leader because it's a commitment that he made I think four years ago to do more to improve bus services for residents and I didn't want him to overlook that promise that has now been fulfilled. Robert King. Thank you chair. Rolling on from the previous question as a new government has set out its ability for English local government to franchise bus services has the leader and indeed his cabinet had any discussion with government about surrey taking on these powers to improve access for our residents across the county particularly where commercial services don't make sense and we often get duplication on routes. Any more? Leader. Thank you very much chair. Let's be absolutely clear about FCND that there is an improvement plan and I suggest actually suggesting the chair of the select committee that she sets up a separate session to go through with all members and I would suggest all members should attend it to actually look at the detail of that plan the plan that is the plan that has been signed off by the department for education and ofsted and indeed is absolutely fundamental to delivering the safety valve agreement that we have signed up to yeah I'm grateful to the select committee and to the sub the working group that produced a report with some detailed recommendations that and I suggest we use that session if she's prepared to do it to go through those not all of those recommendations are practical or practical to implement so they're there and you will get a written response if you haven't done so already but but don't let's not let's not try and make politicizes we are talking about as we know children and families that that are are there's no point shaking your head that you are politicizing this this is this is this is your responsibility as corporate parents here as well and your responsibility as members to help the service this council deliver the the best that we possibly can we can't we can't get away from the fact that there are professionals both in our officer team and indeed those that do the assessments the 20-week assessments that actually decide what they believe as qualified professionals is the most appropriate support for children I recognize that not all parents agree with that assessment you know and and actually one of the things that Bridget Philipson the good friend of Robert Evans has said and is looking at is actually engaging with parents around around using specialist schools for those that really need specialist settings and I think you will find there will be a big push towards expanding the mainstream settings for children and and trying those first and foremost because that that addresses all of the points that you've made around closeness to home the cost of the the exponential rise in the cost of home to school transport it is in everybody's interest to find a suitable placement appropriate placement for a child close to home and that is what we are trying to do here to create to create those places there is not enough specialist places across this county there never will be enough specialist places across this county and there aren't across the country it is not the solution the solution is actually to work with and we know actually that there is no evidence that those children that are putting specialist places actually have better outcomes than they do in mainstream settings so that has to be our focus to look at ways in which we can provide appropriate support for those children that is what we are doing so I would ask please that you know I haven't I have said this George every time and I mean it I I am sorry that we have let families down I accept that we have let families down I accept that last year we were only assessing within the 20-week period 16 percent of EHCPs we are now hitting 70 percent that is a starting point but it is an important starting point to at least clear through the backlog and then we can actually focus on delivering the plans for those people we have 15 000 15 000 children now that in in the HCPs that's five thousand more than I think when I started here as as the leader you know we have seen a huge rise in that demand and it is very difficult for this council as it is for every other upper tier authority so to manage that this this is there are some Surrey local Surrey issues and I'm very clear about that we have to improve our communication with parents and to parents that absolutely we need to tell them where they are on that journey where they are on that assessment and indeed what to expect at the end of that process as well but but this is this is that it by the the work that the county council's network has done says that by 2026 27 16 councils are likely to go into section 114 caused by the the unaffordable cost of particularly homeschool transport but SCN generally so that is why we need to engage with the government that is why we are engaging with the government to to really find some other way of addressing those needs so so all I would say is please you know let's get a session of the select committee let's get everybody there and let's go to work through the detail of what we are actually doing and what we can do more than than is already happening within the the wider improvement plan Paul thank you very much for your speaking you're very welcome we're very pleased that you've been elected as the leader of the liberal group and you talk about actually I think you know that your local your local presence here in Surrey you you you moved to Surrey in 1993 which is the same year as I moved to Surrey but I didn't go to the university here but but actually whether you make an important point I think in terms of the strength of partners including people like the University of Surrey as I did earlier and indeed the hospitals and so on they are an integral part of the fabric of this county and it is really important that we work with them closely to deliver our collective ambitions I'll touch on devolution actually when I deal with Robert Evans's question so and I'm very grateful to you for your indication that you know that that your opposition will be constructive and that we will have a respectful debate I think that is absolutely what we are here to serve the people of Surrey and that is what we must remind ourselves at all times just a couple of points from Catherine Powell you know but there is no doubt and again I've read regularly made this point investments in prevention and early intervention is essential that is again a national debate the challenge we have is to fund the services here and now whilst investing in what are actually longer term benefits but that is what we must do and that is absolutely the work of the integrated care partnership working very closely with the VCSE you know we do need this is public money you know we do need to make sure that any money that goes out of this organization to other organizations is being used appropriately and to the benefits to support our agenda so there are conversations with the VCSE and you know and they're positive conversations and you know I'm afraid to Lance Spencer's amendment to the the motion we will oppose that simply because I'm not prepared to commit this council today to to fund organizations that we we don't actually know what that funding looks like so we I mean I gave some suggested amendment wording to that but at the end of the day we are huge we we are reliant upon the VCSE to deliver a lot of the work that we do here and I would remind Catherine that we did set aside one percent of the council tax here to put into a mental health improvement fund which has now gone out out into into the sector and is and is working was working well so that will continue I think the chief executive would absolutely agree with your comments about silo working you know Terrence has only been here a few weeks but you know comes with a vast experience of other organizations how they operate and so on and there is of course you know this is a large organization but we need to do better in terms of collectively working together and of course you know I'm not I'm not immune or not alive to the fact around the staffing levels here and whether or not we have yeah we have to streamline you know our budget is getting tighter and tighter and tighter we have a budget gap at the moment for next year some tens of millions of pounds you know we do have to transform and transformation has to bring with it a streamlining and a more effective efficient way of delivering those services in in the current environment ddrt i will i will defend ddrt all the way through it is you know not only did it start to have some beneficial impact on the reduction of the 46 percent of carbon emissions that come from transport in this county but it also is a great thing for addressing social isolation social isolation and if you take the chatter bus in cobham as an example it's been a great success i really do think that and to pick up with keith whitham's point yeah we don't have a comprehensive bus service across this county and having ddrts going around topping that up i think is absolutely an appropriate entirely appropriate use of public money as indeed as the the subsidy to on the link card for our younger our younger residents so i really do think that is something that we should get behind rather than to challenge um to jonathan essex um i doubt anybody in this in this council um maybe robert robert king or robert evans would stand up and defend any policy from any government to build on the green belt that is not what any of us want to see what the government should be doing is focusing on the million houses that already have planning permission undoubtedly on brownfield sites get on and require the developers to build those rather than land bank as they do of course it is not it's not an area for this council it is for the district and boroughs and i very much hope that the district and borough colleagues will fight hard over releasing green belt it's it's not we don't need to do it and actually you know of course we need to continue to grow the economy the economy of surrey is fit it contributes 55 billion to the gva of this country it's the largest contributor outside of london we're what to level up this country to grow the economy we need to build houses and to grow and to put you know to have employment in other parts of the country as well so i you know i very much hope that we're we are all aligned upon that um and i think i've dealt with donathan's point hopefully about fcn and then really um to robert evans um i'm in a happy position now i don't have to defend the government you do um so on devolution so um the letter from uh jim mcmahon the minister of state uh said that subject to statutory uh review i i think there needs to be a statutory instrument to uh to confirm the transfer of the adult education budget which i'm told we won't get until the earliest is september 2026 anyway that is an opportunity though to review the delivery of adult education in this county you know we have this sort of slightly bizarre situation where half of it in the east is delivered by a college fe college and the half in the other side of the rest of the county is delivered by uh by us an internal team so i think that's a good opportunity to look at that um i think but the letter goes on to say that if you want further devolution then there has to be a conversation around the broader geography i had a very good meeting with the leaders of the district and boroughs and we have a follow-up meeting this friday um you know i i have been clear in my capacity as the leader here that i do not and have not supported a directly elected mayor i don't see that that adds any value and indeed in the current uh arrangement it would be four tiers of local government i don't think any residents going to welcome that so uh but having said that you know if that is the government's direction of travel uh that you will only get uh the similar powers to to the metro mayors and presumably some money because there's been no mention of what money would come with it then we owe it to our residents to consider what that looks like and what benefits that would bring to the county but at the moment it's very early days um there are there are conversations or there are meetings going into the diary and we'll kind of see what happens i think the challenge for surrey is that we don't have um any kind of obvious neighbors um hampshire have been very clear they've they've they've already declared that they're looking to do something with sat hampton paulsmith and the isle of white um i think the the view is that sussex is east sussex west sussex and brian and ho should come together along the south coast um and i don't know about kens i think they've talked about doing something with medway so that doesn't really leave us with many friends or many options um so at the end of the day this this is the government's agenda we will see what the government is is offering us and then we will have that that debate here in conversation as to whether that is worth pursuing or not for our residents um i apologize if i haven't picked up every single point but hopefully i've dealt with most of the themes of these thank you chair thank you leader item six is approval of county councilor absence the report can be found on pages 35 to 36 the recommendation is on page 35 of your agenda and is that councilor david louis campbell west continues to be absent from meetings until february 2025 by reason phil health the council looks forward to welcoming him back in due course are we agreed please item seven is the secretary report to the council pages 37 to 44 of the agenda i call the chair of select committee chair and why share groups hazel watson to introduce the report well thank you chairman the select committee chairs and vice chairs group met twice between july and september the leaders and the leader and interim chief executive attended a meeting to give an overview of the priorities for the council year and to provide areas of future working together between the cabinet and select committees effective as possible the select committees have scrutinized a wide range of important subjects such as the updated vision zero road safety strategy including a new approach to 20 mile per hour speed limits the program for replacing frimley hospital which has reinforced autoclaved aerated contract concrete rack the home to school travel assistance improvement program and the customer transformation program the group wishes to raise the profile of scrutiny work i'm thus delighted that the report is highlighting the excellent work of two tasks and finish groups these are the additional needs and disabilities parent care experience chaired by jeremy webster business and insights lessons learned by stephen mccormick both task groups demonstrate the effectiveness effectiveness of scrutiny and its importance thank you chairman jeremy webster i am here um fellow counselors i would like to talk briefly about the outcomes recently reported by the parent care task group this was a piece of work which took several months it required an understanding of the hcp processes led onto focus groups with parent carers and staff members it took us into areas where we not only heard a bad experience but also the dramatic difference that good administration and high quality communication can make we were aware from the start that getting send process right is a national issue and that the lga is in its recent report developing and sustaining a local sense system helping to advocate for that change however the task group focused on what we can do now to make matters better in surrey and there is lots we can do now and we should be doing right now the parent care focus groups are difficult and i would direct members to the experiences reported by parent carers in our report we had to keep things in proportion but when a parent says quietly to you that having had two quotes normal children she has been made to feel she has done something wrong because the third is additional needs something has to change with knowledge that sends systems in administration of the hcp processor complex we covered the wall of the committee room here next door with a1 sheets of flip flip chart paper to try and understand it there are for instance many points within it when cases get handed off to another part of the process and this is where communication can easily break down however parent carers expect communicate expect administrator to work for them and not against them too many times it was reported that calls were not returned paperwork was inaccurate and correspondence quite sharp and often overly competent we also heard talk about sorry having a cadre of parents and carers with disabled children who allegedly feel entitled but we had a parent sit for five hours at our scrutiny group the other day who came up to me afterwards and said look this is about need we're not talking about in type we're talking about what children actually need the parent carers we spoke to were magnificent in their passion to advocate and go on advocating for their children as some of you know from your experience and case work this is a lifetime matter for them we met people who had spent their savings or given up jobs because of their they want to get the right outcomes for their children now this council talks a lot about engagement it's an interesting fact that the 81 full-time equivalents who work in this area are at the sharpest of sharp ends when it comes to engagement dealing with the hopes and disappointments of parent carers investment in the future of these staff is absolutely important in the face of the duty they must undertake in one of the most it's one of the most important recommendations of the task group when you read them i know that the recommendations of the task group might come across as a bit operational this personally worried me as we went about our work however i was reassured when at a recent meeting of the chairs and by chairs of scrutiny committees it was made clear that reporting on and trying to improve the experience of residents and staff is indeed the business of task groups that said we acknowledge the impact of the extra investment put into this area by surrey and the work of the end to empty this is making a difference but progress can be slow therefore i'm urging you to please read and appreciate the recommendations and i welcome what the leader has said but getting us all together in a room and sorting this out case officer development is key we need to have enough officers to ensure they're not overburdened as they are today this means the permanent establishment may well have to rise their knowledge of the code of practice the law must be thorough we are losing too many tribunals because we do not appear to know the law the ability to be inquisitive care and empathize with those we're talking to is areas also essential at all levels in this organization increasing our knowledge of neurodiversity into changing impacts on children our society is also vital we need to reduce wherever possible the opportunities for conflict which can arise in the current system we should build in as much mediation as possible the opportunity for realistic but nonetheless constructive conversations and we commend the work of the l spine promoting this opportunity for co-production that is where parents get involved in the plans and getting the information right must be built into the process as is already recommended by the end-to-end task group now it was not our remit to delve too deeply into the work of partners but i'm afraid it was at times unavoidable have we noted again driven by the l spa the pins initiative that is partnership for inclusion of neurodiversity in schools this will bring health and education specialists and expert carers into mainstream primary settings finally i have to thank the other members of task group counselors mark sugden johnathan essex and bob hughes and particular thanks to our committee scrutiny officer who had the unenviable task of sorting out our findings into a comprehensible report thank you for listening thank you steam will permit thank you chair um the introduction is similar to what i used to introduce the report to cabinet and some honorable mentions to be made first ross and dem services helped kick start this task and finish group phil hall the independent expert provided so much information and provided an objective view all officers and witnesses who attended to provide evidence and put into the task and finish group lee anna david lewis my huge thanks my fellow task group members david edward john bob provided input and questions checks and challenges and my thanks to bob for being bob an excellent select committee chair and a great sounding board finally huge thanks to claire and jake in democratic services without whom this report wouldn't be here pulling together all of the very different strands into the report report on sap to unit four transition is probably the best post-implementation review i've been involved with um to be fair most post implementation reviews really get done properly if at all the goal of the task and finish group was to review the dbni program and to identify tangible deliverables that can be used in this organization and elsewhere to make improvements to future program or project delivering i wanted us to produce realistic recommendations that can be used whatever the size of the program or project which i think has been done some of the recommendations you may look at and say well that's obvious it is now but at the time when you're focused on delivery but let's just say you may not be able to see the wood for the trees the task and finish group was not meant to find a person or persons to blame for the delays or the overspending budget however if that did appear in the investigation work it would have been firmly called out i can say that wasn't the case a combination of several factors contributed to the delays and overspend which i believe the report illustrates with hindsight and lessons learned would have been would it be a different story maybe we learned from experience we change based on that experience and we should get an improved outcome based on the many interviews and key lines of inquiry i can say that all involved worked hard to deliver the program these programs are immensely complex and an item to note is that it has been delivered it is in operation it is running this organization it's well done to the program and and to the team a huge effort that said however we aren't out of the woods yet there are still issues of unit 4 which are being addressed by the uniform stabilization board there are several internal audit reports and unit 4 which will assist and we will bring the dbni item back to resource and performance select committee to review progress and to provide whatever support we can thank you members john thank you chairman and may i first say that it's absolutely excellent that on the floor of council maybe for the first time that we've not only heard from the chairs of chairs of the full select committees but the chairs of the task group the work of select committees you know are the totality of the 60 of us or so who are not members of the cabinet so the work that we do is essential to the good governance of this council and supporting our residents through that scrutiny the only point i'd like to raise and it sounds like a bit of a process point and indeed it is a bit of a process point is one of the new features it's not written any rules it's not stated anywhere but i think is really important in helping the progress of our select committee system and that is the use of pre-meetings before the full select committee take place where members gather informally online to go through agendas work out questions and even indeed even have tentative recommendations before we actually appear in public and scrutinize the officers and the cabinet members this is a again a very constructive force it helps the to determine the quality of the outcome of the select committee process but too often before the pre-meeting we only get the report maybe or the reports maybe only 24 hours before the pre-meeting we cannot as members of a committee really digest maybe you know six or seven items or five or six items in a committee at a pre-meeting unless we've had time ourselves to read the report make comments have ideas before we go into the pre-meeting so my request through the chair of chairs through uh hazel watson and particularly democratic service can you please work it in your timetable that reports are delivered to committee members shall we say 48 work two working days before the pre-meeting takes place that will enable us to prepare ourselves to meet in pre-meeting and then enhance the quality of our public session and the recommendations that flow from it thank you chairman can i start by associating myself with the remarks of john o'reilly and i think in the chamber that went down very well some of the reports to select committees are very long and they do need time to be absorbed and questioned i want to speak about the db and i lessons learned report coming from the committee i chair resources and performance and in particular i want to commend the enormous amount of work put into this by steve mccormack chairing that committee task group he was exacting detailed knowledgeable and led our group constructively throughout and i said to him afterwards having defeated a friend of mine who was the his opponent candidate in the last county elections by about seven votes i'd now forgive him for doing so we produced a report which as steve has mentioned it would have been very easy to have blamed who's to fault who's to blame for this why did it go wrong and the fact is it didn't all go wrong it's a complex system and i speak scarred by spending an inordinate amount of time this morning trying to find my p60 on my sari all i can tell you is do download the advice as to how to find it and then ignore it because it isn't correct but what we were doing is producing a template to follow because the point of the report is to guide the council on future purchases of it and data systems there will be other big purchases not as big as this one for a very long time but some of them are extremely large and it's really important that people look at the recommendations from this report which should endure as to how they get that right who they consult how they consult the timings that are put there how they work with contractors it applies to future purchases as well and of course as steve has said we will continue to examine every major it project and the progress of my sorry to bring it to a an even more useful tool for the whole of the council thank you if you want to play with you thank you chair i'd like to endorse the findings of the task and finish group to thank jeremy in particular for all of the effort he put in to ensuring that what we've produced was a very balanced outcome respond to the leader's comment and the request that i set up a meeting for all members so that all members can understand what the end-to-end review is about and i'm very happy to do that i think there is there is one comment that i would make which is that we are making progress but we are making extraordinarily slow progress and in doing that we are actually not quickly enough addressing the needs of our parents and carers of children who have additional needs and disabilities we should be trying to address these issues as quickly and as holistically as we can and although i absolutely acknowledge the good work that is going on we are not doing it quickly enough and we're not doing it comprehensively enough i cannot believe that we still have the communication issues that we had two years ago with parents and carers to my understanding there has been little improvement in the quality of communication and the the quality of that communication with parents and carers is absolutely fundamental to the relationship those parents and carers have with us and in the trust they have with us as an organization no matter how well intentioned we are no matter how well we're doing behind the scenes in really making progress if we are not talking constructively empathetically to parents of parents and carers of children with additional needs and disabilities we are failing and frankly we are still not doing this well enough and i really do not understand what the issue is i genuinely don't you know this has been going on for far too long we need to make demonstrable progress much more quickly i absolutely appreciate we're making progress but fundamentally it does not appear to me that we are making progress in those communications and i would really ask that the children and families directorate look closely at communication and what's happening because that's what sets in trail you know a whole breakdown of the relationship with parents and carers so i in closing um you know i do you can tell that i feel incredibly strongly about this because you know i get emails about it absolutely every day and some of those communications are absolutely heartbreaking but i really do want to endorse what um jeremy and the task group have done because they've brought into daylight the experience of parents and carers but they've also told us how difficult it often is for case workers you know who are completely overwhelmed by their caseload so we have to be considerate of those caseworkers as well thank you for your indulgence mr chair edward hawkins thank you chairman um firstly can i just go back on to bob's point about steve mccormack's leadership um i totally agree with him and i mean at times steve rather went into technical jargon and uh it did feel rather like he was speaking a foreign language to me but he was understanding with my uh lack of technical knowledge but picking up um john o'reilly's point um my committee on planning and regulatory um i have to say in defense of the officers and democratic services they strive very hard to get to say to get uh to me and the vice chairman for our briefing full papers um our reports are not uncommon to be sort of 400 pages long and i do read every page believe it or not at times i wonder why i'm doing it but uh yeah such is the weight of the technical information it is only right and proper that i do that so i think it's fair to say that yeah i say that in support of the team that they get to us papers that the chairman and my vice chairman myself can be able to support the officers and when it comes to site visits and committee meeting be able to help and guide the committee so to them i say thank you thank you thank you chairman i really thank members for their really good debate on this is the subject of scrutiny which is so important i think it highlights how constructive scrutiny is in this um in this county which uh i think makes all the difference and i would also really like to thank the officers who support scrutiny who work incredibly hard to to do to do a good job and um the end result i think speaks for itself um so but i would like to take up the the comments made by members about committee reports being delivered in sufficient time for members to read the reports and and also the comment about reports being too long and i think we do appreciate the officers are trying their best and working really hard to support us but i think it's been a really good debate and really i think it's done the job of place in this council thank you the recommendation is on page 43 of your agenda and is that council review the work summarized in this report providing feedback to scrutinize chairs as appropriate is that agreed thank you item eight is a point of select of the section 151 officer pages 45 to 40 years of agenda i call the leader of the chairman of the people's performance and development committee to introduce the report thank you very much chair um can i start by thanking uh shadow smith and her team for running what was a a very robust process for the selection of the section 151 officer um the i'm going to can i also then thank um anna dalazandro who's been our service interim section 151 officer for all the work that she's done particularly on next year's budget which we are currently working through um chair ppdc are pleased to recommend andy brown uh as the section 151 officer he has spent um all of his career i think in local government um i think he did apologize for being an accountant uh during the interior which is entirely fair um but um has worked uh both at wilshire and cornwell and there's a bit more detailing in section 2.6 of the report um the and there'll be a little bit more background to him i suspect when the chief executive sends out the welcome email chair um there is now a start date for andy of the 14th of october so it may be subject to the monitoring officer's view that we changed the recommendation um to to reflect the fact that he will be on the 14th of october and therefore the second the interim 151 officer will remain in post until the 14th but then we'll hand over so chair on behalf of ppdc i reckon happy to recommend please recommend indeed to this council the appointment of andy brown is our section 151 officer with the title of executive director of finance and corporate services and deputy chief executive any comments from the members the recommend the recommendation is on page 46 of your agenda and is andy brown is appointed as the section 151 officer of sorority county council with the start date of 14th of october is that agreed and the interim is to continue until that date item nine is the annual report of the ordinance governance committee pages 49 to 62 of the agenda i call the chairman of ordinary governance committee victor loosen to introduce the report thank you very much mr chairman so i'm pleased to present the committee's annual report for 23 24. so this report covers the work of the ordinary governance committee during the period may 23 to may 24. so in addition to outlining the role and the purpose of the committee and presenting a summary of the work undertaken the report includes details of committee membership and attendance training officer support to the committee and how the committee has engaged with others although the committee is primarily concerned with assuring itself that the council's policies are being implemented and appropriate systems are in place to provide adequate controls over the council resources and assets i would like to stress that it's not the role of the committee to be responsible for the arrangements themselves just in terms of brief summary of the work undertaken as by the committee the firstly risk management through a review of the corporate risk heat map querying the risk ratings and any additions and deletions to this in addition the committee approved the updated risk management strategy clearing the length of time items were on the risk registers and for mitigations in place and risks materializing we also reviewed the counter-fraud annual report and the work of the counter-fraud team encountering and raising awareness of fraud risk we reviewed the contents of the draft annual governance statement the ags and we were satisfied that the council's governance arrangements were regarded as fit for purpose and were in accordance with the government's framework very importantly we also considered the an internal audit report and opinion noting the work undertaken and the performance of internal audit the committee queried what improvements have been made regarding various audits and also assessed additional orders undertaken definitions of the audit opinions and when follow-up audits would commence the committee considered that the council's arrangements for internal audit have proved effective during the year the committee also carried out a number of deep dives into various service areas that the committee regarded as requiring further investigation a number of service managers were invited to answer questions on various service areas identified the committee approved grant taunton's external audit plan and requested that the external audit update report includes a separate report on value for money arrangements and to confirm whether the public sector audit appointments has approved the proposed audit fee the committee reviewed ethical standards and assessed the monitoring officer's report on the recent activity in relation to members code of conduct including registration of interest and distance hospitality and complaints made in relation to member conduct there are in fact many other areas of work that the committee has addressed throughout the year and these can be found in the report i would just like to finish by thanking members of the committee for all their hard work as well as officers for all their valuable contributions i'd also just like to add that although the committee is composed of a number of members from the majority of political parties here the committee has always operated a politically which is crucial to the effectiveness of this committee i therefore ask the council to note the work undertaken by the order of governance committee during the period may 23 to may 24. thank you very much mr chairman any debate open for debate the recommendation is on page 49 of your agenda and is that council notes the work undertaken by audit and governance committee during the period may 23 2023 to 20 may 2024 is that agreed item 10 is amendments to the constitution pages 6358 of the agenda are not the proposed changes to parts three five and six of the constitution the item is open for debate or nick harrison thank you chairman um this meeting is already debated the length of reports and i do apologize for the length of this report in the papers today um in essence the council is both an employer and the administrative authority for the surrey pension fund and the council although the largest employer is only one of over 300 employers in the fund these changes recognize the dual role of the council and potential conflicts of interest the other changes recognize the statutory role of the senior pensions officer and marks specific delegations from the section 151 officer to the senior pensions officer and his team thank you chairman the recommendations are on pages 66 of your agenda and are a for the amendments to part three section two and section three parts three a and three b and parts five or two in relation to improvements to the governance of the sorry pension fund has set out in appendix two of this report be approved reference that the bb that the consequential amendments to part three section two the items of the reference of the ppdc has set out in paragraph 10 of this report be approved c that the amendments to be to part 6 or 2 of the constitution arrangements for dealing with members conduct has set an annex 3 of this report be approved are we agreed item 11 is the members question from pages 7 to 56 of supplementary agenda notice has been received of 43 questions we only have 45 minutes i will urge members to keep the supplementary to minimum if they can and please be brief and relevant to the subject it has to be questions and not statements therefore moving to members question question one is from robert evans robert evans i'll try and pose this question thank you um does the uh cabinet member well thank her for response but does the cabinet member agree with me that i should have been more specific in my question because what i was referring to an aspect of brent council's policy uh whereby um it fits in with surrey's responsibility for for collecting any fly-tip uh matters the brent council is in in uh doing a trial of taking rubbish skips around to hot spots to try and encourage residents to use a rubbish skip rather than um just flight they take these round in rotation to key areas around the borough so um apologies for it not being perhaps specific enough and i was not necessarily expecting a response but i'll leave it with the cabinet member thank you any other supplementary do you wish to thank you chairman and thank you uh council members for your uh supplementary as as as uh in my reply um there's a big difference between a waste collection authority the bryson districts and the waste disposal authority ourselves when i had the responsibility for waste at ryger and bannstead that was something that we actually did do as the collection authority we did put skips out uh in certain areas to collect waste in that way and so possibly our borough and district colleagues who may be in this room might like to take that suggestion forward thank you very much second question is from eva kinton to the leader anybody have a supplement thank you i note the response from council auger does he agree with me that turning my questions and the critical analysis by civic watch of this council's data analysis into a suggestion in the last paragraph that members might need training workshops is perverse and implies that the problem lies with the ignorance of members rather than the quality of the data they received will he arrange for the performance team who i expect provided much of response to my question to undertake a fact check of the claims made by civic watcher providing less able members like me with simple responses so that we can all know who is telling the truth any other yeah um can i suggest that mr kington makes an exception and actually comes to one of the select committee meetings and the one that the chair has already agreed to set up and he can ask those questions with the leave of the chair at that point third question is from johnson essex to clear current johnson do you have yes yes and i'd like to start by thanking the cabinet member for her answer this data shows there is a large increase in the numbers of looked after children and that care leavers are accommodated both of looked after children and care leavers who are accommodated in semi-independent accommodation for care leavers this seems positive because it's a shift from accommodating more within surrey whereas for 16 and 17 year olds it seems that many more of them are now in this type of accommodation than five years ago so my question is is this the best place for all of these 16 17 year olds to live if not what more can we do in this area and can we engage with some of these looks after children and care leaders and the foster carers that previously looked after them to ask them these questions thank you can clear thank you chairman one thing i would say chairman this is quite difficult to look at figures on a page and equate those to the individual stories of the children who are behind it i know from engaging with the service and with the care leavers and the looked after teams that they try extremely hard in every case to find a home that meets that child's needs and that case it might suggest that for 16 17 year olds or for some care leavers at semi-independent living is the right case for them and i would just say in closing that for some of those care leavers we're looking though they will be unaccompanied asylum seeking children who have just arrived in this country and who do not want to be placed and it would not be right to have to place them with a family and that supported accommodation is the right solution and so i will close and say that if he is aware of any individual child or young person that he feels that we need to look at more closely and invite him to speak to me outside this meeting thank you chairman question four is from kathleen bard to my furnace kathleen bard yellow supplementary i do thank you thank you council for the council you provided a table of the 29 schools of the original 49 where the road safety has been improved or brought to a conclusion some other way so my supplementary question is i'd like to know which which of the remaining 20 schools of the original 49 schools are still waiting for their road safety improvements that were identified in 2021 and how much will be finally clearing the backlog cost however this cost is met thank you thank you chair thank you council bot for your supplementary question i'll happily supply a list of the remaining schools all i can say is that the three million pounds will be utilized in full as part of this project which should finish this financial year but we will need to have discussions about future years so that we can continue this very very worthwhile well earned scheme what i would encourage all members to do is encourage their schools to sign up to the feet first and bikeability training because it's not only what we do outside the schools and engineering point it's also to get to and from school safely with their parents thank you question five is brandy mccloud to work for us again thank you chairman i'd like to first of all thank the cabinet member for his answer which i'd summarize it in saying that the council is doing its best in very difficult circumstances to deal with the problem and i think that's a very fair and reasonable answer to the question my supplementary question relates to the fact that the cabinet member will be aware that this problem is strictly caused in most of our divisions by old houses being built in narrow roads with no off-street parking and typically now many of these houses have one or two cars in each house which finish up being parked on or on partially on the pavements and the council has got very few powers to deal with this actually the situation is ambiguous and his answer the cabinet members have felt to the they put the dot in consultation in 2020 to which there's been no outcome so i guess my final my final part of my supplementary question just asked the cabinet member if he if he agrees that the dot should be actually now in dealing with this problem and coming up with strategies and solutions to it and should this council and other councils be pressing the dot to do precisely that thank you yeah yeah thank you chair and thank you council cloud for your supplementary question um myself my colleagues my right and i'm happy to do so again it is right to the dft asking the outcome of this consultation which i think not only ourselves but many other councils would be interested to see the result of four years on i mean in cases that we have we can do a ban on paper parking we try not to increase the amount of signage as you've indicated here for people who are partially sighted um but we can do that that we are limited literally due to that type of restriction one thing that you might want to take back to the district is maybe a review of the district parking standards so that when new housing is approved by the local planning authority they take into consideration around pavement parking as well because there is only so much highway space available to for us all but i'll happily write to the dft again let's see if we can get this one moving thank you question thank you from katherine powell to claire current katherine do you thank you i'd like to thank the cabinet member response but would seek some clarification to the answer to my questions can the cabinet member confirm that the answer to my question is minutes of the mdt panels are not made but the relevant salient points from discussions are recorded in surrey's ehm database and these are not shared with parents and carers does the cabinet member believe that recording the salient points from discussions but not sharing them with parent carers is fully compliant with section 36 of the children's and families acts 2014 and also gdpr secondly there seem to be conflicting evidence regarding the sharing of the rationale for decisions there was a poll last night and today of parents and carers that showed of 100 people who responded 90 of them sorry more than 90 of them had not received the rationale please can the cabinet member review the response in light of this does the cabinet member recognize that a needs assessment should be undertaken in accordance with paragraph eight of the family and children's act 2014 so where a child or young person has or may have a special educational need and b it may be necessary for special educational provision to be made for children or young people in accordance with the ehcp is not the same as the criteria for issuing an ehcp in her response thank you thank you chairman i i have to say um having i i'm not entirely clear about the council uh a counselor's question uh in my response i say that verbatim minutes are not kept of meetings but then verbatim minutes are not kept of this council meeting either discussion is summarized and the salient points are kept and this generates a decision letter which is then sent to the parent from what i am advised by the service and i am not a cen professional i am assured that all the processes in assessing in both assessment and issuing education health and care plans are fully compliant with the relevant legislation and the send code of practice i'm sorry i am not aware of the poll to which the counselor is referring i've not had sight of that if you'd like to take that up with me outside the meeting i will happily respond to her further in writing afterwards thank you question seven is from joanna sexton to my furnace joanna do you have a we'll be pleased to know sir we'll be pleased to know that i don't because i'm dealing with it with the officers directly thank you question eight is from fiona davidson to claire curran fiona thank you very much chairman sorry for the coughing introduction i just wonder on galley cleaning uh in a very different area than spel form that i represent on the council a number of parish councils spend a great deal of money clearing out gullies which are often just left completely full of mud and therefore ineffective and indeed they do clean out the surrey county council gullies at the same time which is really important locally yeah supplement yeah yeah can the uh cabinet member look again at whether or not there can be a a contribution in terms of the work done by the parish council firstly to pay them for what they do or indeed to come to an arrangement where they do that work on behalf of the county council furnace thank you chair thank you council hues uh for your supplementary question and thank you council for not having a supplementary question um very happy so we increased as part of the task and finish group findings the the amount for galley cleaning repairs and so forth and i'm pleased to say that we have found an additional three million pounds that we are going to inject into the highway service for the remainder of this financial year to tackle all elements of street cleaning that we are responsible for um what i would say is with your uh highways revenue allocation i would urge you to use that to tackle any spot checks that the services haven't done but do alert me to any point i'm happy to come to meet your parish council to see if there is anything we can do we've had various schemes over the years i think the last one was the lengthen scheme which ended about seven years ago where we worked with parish councils ultimately though these are very costly and we have prioritized funding in different ways but happy to have a discussion with your parishes question eight is from fiona davidson do you have can i please um ask the cabinet member if she can confirm that the parents and carers of children with fasd will be actively involved in the study that is proposed actively involved in respect of their experiences in accessing diagnosis and treatment for children with fasd under the current children's health contract there is provision for assessment diagnosis and treatment but unfortunately parents report to me that the reality of the situation is very far different from the theoretic provisions in that contract and i would hope that under the new contract those provisions would be actively enabled and actively delivered thank you any other supplementary i'd also like to thank cabinet member for a response i have a child in my division he's been waiting for an fasd assessment for years even though it was confirmed during pregnancy but sadly the mother had consumed higher levels of alcohol through a hair follicle test child has just had his eighth birthday please can the cabinet member advise if the council or nhs keep records on the number of children in surrey waiting for assessments and how long they've been waiting for if this could be shared outside the meeting i'd appreciate it and can the cabinet please advise if the council keeps records of where fasd is suspected to be a contributing factor to where children are struggling in mainstream settings thank you thank you chairman and i would like to thank the chairman of the select committee for her doggy persistence on this issue i know that she has found it difficult to find the information that she wants in respect to this and i have every sympathy with with the um with this issue with the issue that she's raising um as i said in the answer the public health team and the commissioning team are starting to scope out this work and i i do feel that it is an area that has not yet had much focus on it so i will work i undertake to work with the chairman of the select committee to ensure that the the work that is that needs to be done is done i would expect that to be co-produced with parents and carers in the way that um that we do normally try to work and i will also join with my cabinet colleague for public health to make sure that this is raised i cannot answer the question that councilor powell has asked um i don't think that we would know the records that health partners keep um we we can raise that with the public health team and try to find out what what information is known in this area thank you jim question nine is from scott louis uh in his absence there's no support room but there's any other supplementary to question nine question ten is from becky rush to mcburness uh give a supplementary yes thank you um thank you to the cabinet member for the response that you've given me but i don't think you've actually answered some of the questions that i asked um i'd really like to know who approved the works i'd like a name i'm happy for you to give me that offline if need be um the asset program manager um had to confirm to him by email that highways had no plans to surface the road and i know that you say that this isn't a resurface um but the entire road or the byway um width was dug up and the plan until it was stopped was to replace 400 meters so it does look like a resurface so i'd like to understand how it was then approved and escalated to be carried out as an emergency with no notice i think to note also on point c residents don't believe the road was closed um due to fly tipping i guess they'd know because they live there um i also requested that i be involved in future decisions about norheads lane and you haven't confirmed this so i make this request again and i remain skeptical as to the motivation behind these works and i'd like the information provided that i've asked for thank you any other supplementary council thank you chair um i think it's best that we uh take this and continue this one offline so i'll follow up with the council from um foster he's not here but is there any other supplementary um spencer thank you mr chair and thank you to the cabinet member for his response so the area in working that has this unique approach that he describes is in my division and the works must have cost many millions of pounds to do uh can he confirm that woking borough council has no information on how much still money has been spent on these projects uh the sec has provided the delivery capability for and that equally sec has sorry council has no information on how much delivery they have done in woking related to this uh unique project gradually thank you chairman i looked at this question um from will foster and i i would like to record my congratulations on him winning um and last general election in his area but i seem to recall that will foster was part of woking borough council and at one stage was the mayor i think the year after i was mayor now if he was an mp and he'd written this question um it would have never come to council and so i'd like to ask um when i listened to the the leader of the council talk about streamlining efficiency transformation communication we have 43 questions to get through in 45 minutes as you yourself state therefore i'd like to ask all leaders of groups on this council my question would be to them when you look at the questions coming to full council will you please consider that the majority of these not all but the majority of these could have been answered before full council by simply an email to an officer to a cabinet member and the question could have been simply answered this is a typical example supplementary question please my question is to all leaders will they commit in their group to look at the questions thank you for your point thank you for those two supplementary questions um what i would say uh councilor is i'm afraid i don't know this particular project that you're referencing um but i would urge any double-hatted members maybe they could encourage waiting by council to accept still bids from sari county council um it is is an outlier there and whilst i know the financial situation at this time it would be good for joint working going forward but maybe council we can discuss this outside outside the meeting in detail um i'll i'll leave the leaders to respond if they wish outside the meetings council like question 12 is from we have had two conservatives stand up and suggest that we shouldn't be coming here with our questions can you proceed please preserve the rights of those in the opposition to bring their questions to this council and actually have them answered properly thank you very much thank you question 12 is from spencer uh lance spencer to claire carmen uh lance do you have a supplementary so uh my reading of the table is a very complex table there that 32 uh young people have not yet been assessed in autumn 2024 but it looks like there are 71 not yet assessed from 23 24 can you confirm that's correct but my main question is on the principle here i attended these panels i attend these panels on a regular basis the vast majority coming through currently are 16 year olds with complex special education needs and disabilities all of which have ehcps the wording that is used in these reviews is surrey county council will not be providing nice to have transport for special education needs children when they're 16 years old just let those words settle in i have a child with special education needs very complex and if somebody said to me you can't have nice to have transport in front of me i would have probably been quite aggressive really bad language these parents and children are being left so far behind by a council when i attend those panels i feel it's a traumatic experience for me let alone the parents so can the cabinet member agree to review this change in the implementation of the policy that has been impacted thank you and i think in follow-up i'd like to ask such a review includes information as the distances and numbers of these young children have been affected and and where you know so we can see where they're going and why they are being required to make those journeys on their own thank you any other supplementary clear chairman in the coming weeks this council be asked to determine our budget for next year and i'm quite sure we will all be reminded that we are currently have significant overspend in year and the more than half of that overspend is accounted for by overspend in the home to school travel assistant budget and members hold me to account for the for the spending on that budget and through the select committee have in the past been highly critical of the service provided by our colleagues in the home to school transport team this council does not have a statutory responsibility to provide home to school travel assistance for anybody who is not of statutory school age that's not just this local authority that is every local authority in the land it is not a statutory obligation to do so however at its discretion it may provide travel assistance for those who are not of statutory school age depending upon individual circumstances and that is assessed by our travel assessment team and parents then have the right to appeal both at stage one and stage two i don't think that is an unfair or or inappropriate system to have in place we are custodians of public money and we must ensure that it is appropriately spent on those who need our support the most and i don't think there is anybody in this chamber who would disagree with that and particularly in the home to school transport home to school travel assistant budget it needs to be spent on those who need the support the most not on those who who have very loud voices or who are most persistent i am not i will not undertake to take a review of the policy because that is the statutory obligation of this local authority question 13 from hazel watson to claire coman hazel do you have a supplementary um yes i'd like to thank the cabinet member for her response um given the 15 reduction in early intervention spend in surrey prevention measures and how will it be measured thank you any other supplementary yes thank you chair and thank you to the cabinet member for the response i do find it really hard to believe that between 2010 11 and 2021 22 for an 11-year period the decrease in uh sorry county council has only been 15 percent for as in the report it suggests it's 46 could the cabinet member ask the officers to provide more detail on this response because it seems just unrealistic in one opinion thank you chairman uh could i um draw to members attention the fact that this the information here relates to a report detailing expenditure in 21 22 and undoubtedly though i haven't actually investigated that would probably have related to the previous year's spending that would have been uh 2020 21. that was in the last administration and before i joined this cabinet as um cabinet as lead member for children's services and i would remind all members in this council that since then this administration has been really focused on expenditure on early help and on prevention and early intervention and over the last three years we have seen a significant uplift in the amount of the children's services budget and particularly and in the last 12 months especially a large increase in the expenditure in our early help areas for children's services we have invested as a council very significantly in early help and we have a very strong and effective early help system that has been that has been recognized by austed in their jti which came out with a very positive judgment and we can see the effectiveness of our early help work by seeing the reduction in our child protection plans and the number of children looked after by this authority so i do not really recognize this reduction in early intervention spending and actually a couple of weeks ago the select committee did a budget deep dive into early intervention and early help spending which showed i don't have the figures in front of me but i'm quite certain that the select committee will have this be able to produce the figures for me like that which showed that this authority now spends significantly more in certain areas of early help than other local authorities so i think had we looked at the area of our breakdown of spend on early help now rather than in 2021 it would be a different story thank you chairman question 14 is from steven cooksey to met fernes steven cooksey do you have a supplementary yes thank you chairman and i'd like to thank the cabinet member for his response which seems very favorable so far as the current contracting system is concerned i think many members believe that a franchising system or a municipal bus company may have real advantages for the provision of bus services so i would and i really do question whether finding an assessment of those potential changes would cost millions of pounds however i would like a confirmation chairman from the cabinet member that when the better buses bill is published then we have full and comprehensive review by this council thank you chair can i agree with the comments just made by councillor cooksey as well as noted the demands responsive transport excludes the majority of runnymede including all of my division and indeed those members majority in spellthorne is there any plan given the skepticism offered by the cabinet member on the franchising system to expand this into the majority areas of runnymede indeed spellthorne where most of my residents wish to travel to edward hawkins thank you chairman um i note the final paragraph of the response uh from matt furnace can i just ask no response now um but can he let me and my fellow surrey heath county councilors know um the likely rollout for surrey heath in the coming months for the on-demand bus service thank you thank you chair and thank you for those supplementary questions we've already started looking at feasibility around franchising i would stress so all members are well aware that currently the risk sits with the bus operators if we were to go for a full franchise system the full risk would sit with ourselves that doesn't that includes the fares depots full operation staffing pensions so it is quite a different system we currently have 22 bus operators in surrey this is very unusual unlike a lot of other areas in the uk where we have between two and four so we actually have a very competitive system currently and i would just urge that we have quite a few small and medium-sized family businesses as well which would not be able to compete on a franchise system level which often favors the larger companies rather than the smaller ones um in terms of uh sorry connect uh council hawkins uh it is already in surrey heath we do have a third phase that is within the budget and we're looking at that on how we can push the roll out which should cover other areas including runny mead uh sorry heath areas which do not have a good public transport network are the areas that we're targeting with this service so it will not be suitable for areas which do already have good bus lanes thank you question 15 was from fiona white phoenix was here is there supplementary to that dean is from lee's townsend to clear current uh lee's do you have a supplementary i do thank you chair um i'm very disappointed with the answer provided um this just compounds the mistrust distress and anger that many parents and carers of children and young people with additional needs feel every day in dealing with this council it is an arduous battle and parents and carers constantly feel on the losing side i didn't ask if panel decisions are recorded or minuted verbatim i asked for the rationale to be provided to parents and carers and whether the decision to withhold this information is reflective of statutory requirements or is based on a sorry policy and practice the cabinet member has also not answered what information parents and carers should expect to receive in terms of those minutes and the rationale for this decision-making process because the vast majority of parents are reporting that they get nothing at all and this is at odds this is at odds with what the cabinet member is claiming my supplementary question is why is there such a huge disparity between the lived parents and carers experiences of the inequity and opaque panel decision-making process and what the cabinet member is saying to this council thank you any other supplementary thank you chairman i think as the leader and i have said on many occasions there are undoubtedly a number of families across the county who feel that they have not had the service from this council they feel that they should have had and we have apologized for that and do so again i cannot really answer the um the counselor's question about why that disparity exists but what i can say is it is the ambition of this council to work in a more open transparent and relational based way with all parents and one of the objectives that has been has come through out of the end-to-end review is a necessity really to work more closely with parents before panel decisions before those decisions go to panel so that there is a better under shared understanding of what will happen what information is to be shared and what will be considered and i hope that that will go some way to making this whole process less distressing and less less distressing for parents thank you chairman question 18 was from penny rivers she's not here is there any supplementary to that question sorry question 17 is from ashley tilling to matt furnace supplementary please thank you chair for not missing it out after all um and thank you for the response and it's simply not acceptable for this what's been called tree gate by local residents to continue beyond what is now the 18-month anniversary of these four healthy cherry trees being locked down by surrey county council so now the officers have belatedly concluded that the crossing will not now be moved and there's therefore some unspent uh borough council sill money in the bank please can we have no further delay and simply replace the four damaged cherry trees with four new ones thank you any other supplementaries council furnace thank you chair and thank you for the supplementary question um i will speak to the officers but we do have a policy in place that if any trees are removed or damaged then we do replace them so we will be looking to replace any trees affected thank you question 19 is for 18 penny rivers she's in our absence learning supplementary lance spencer uh thank you mr chair thank you the government member for the response would it be possible to do some training for members on the changes to the 20 mile an hour policy and how members can access funding to pay for the consultation and the necessary speed strips and so on that are necessary to implement the new policy changes any other supplementary council furnace thank you chair members have already had training on this but i'm sure we can provide another round of training i fully encourage you to contact your highways engagement officer so they can advise you how to use your highways allocation particularly your revenue funding not only to do the speed surveys that are the precursor but also the consultation before any construction thank you question 19 is from four fellows to matt furnace thank you mr chairman and thank you to the cabinet member for the response yes i do have a supplementary i'm just following on from council cooksy and a few others earlier as the government hasn't seen fit not to allow anybody other than the local transport authority i.e surrey to run franchise bus services will the cabinet member commit to working with boroughs and districts and even towns and parishes to provide hyper-local services that are often those missing links in our communities for example god i'm in town council and wavy borough council are ready and willing to work with you to deliver this and wouldn't be willing to provide funding and other support so would you commit to exploring those activities with us any other supplementaries thank you jen thank you council follows your supplementary question uh also i would say is we're always happy to have a discussion if there are any particular routes or areas that you think are being missed then i would encourage you to write to me and then we can move forward with any possibilities thank you question 20 from mark subden who's online uh mark do you have a supplementary no supplementary mr chairman thank you any other supplementary no question 21 is from councilor townsend to clear current council townsend thank you just to be brief um how is this not a change in policy or strategy when it clearly says in the first paragraph that it's merely the five-year strategy coming to its conclusion in other words it's going to be changing so how can it not be a change in policy or strategy plus when they have people come in as part of the strategy uh the organizations have been visited to explain the ending of the tenancy agreements and supporting resources why aren't those people actually telling the organizations how this change is actually going to work because they aren't doing that in any shape or form thank you any other supplementary yours porter uh thank you um i'd like to congratulate council current on what appears to be one of many on the supplements on some supplementary paper which is a master class in providing an answer focusing on what is technically permissible rather than addressing the question of what is right or wrong um in this particular case nobody is suggesting the county council doesn't have the permission to do this question of is it right for a youth center to be closed down without any alternative provision being put in place and i further ask and i wonder if perhaps the council can get given answers to everything which is about to be right or wrong i would further ask if the existing five-year study is coming to an end of any plans to have a new five-year strategy or is it just going to sort of peter out with a whimper i would love to know thank you any other supplementary council no thank you chairman i'm happy to take this up with councillor towns and outside this meeting um as i know there are certain um local issues which are not uh part of a county-wide policy um but one thing i would say is that this is a land and property issue about the um about the management of a building and not about the delivery of service thank you chairman yes councillor and question 22 is from robert evans robert do you have a supplementary thank you very much uh thank the cabinet member would the cabinet member agree with me that it doesn't look very good to our residents if one day the street sweeper goes around and then the following day the grass is cut completely negating the street sweeping of the day before any other supplementary thank you chair thank you council members for your supplementary question um i think what i would say is that we do share a huge amount of information about our schedules with the districts and virus online is the grass getting schedules we also share all of the the drain cleaning ones as well so ideally what should happen grass cutting happens the streets are swept and then we come through again with the galley cleaners would be the absolutely ideal situation we're very open to working closer with the districts about getting that coordination right because it all benefits everyone all residents so thank you that concludes the question timing allocated for questions the other questions that are left are all answered and if the questioners want to take a supplementary they're welcome to take it off on offline yeah now we're moving to the cabinet and deputy cabinet members briefings we have 15 minutes are there any 15 minutes in total so is there any questions to the catherine is catherine thank you i would like to ask council bremel about her report and there's a mention of the school-based need for wygett priory and that the isg has gone into admin this was a joint application of sari county council is it possible to to say what what if any are the implications for the relocation of wygett priory proposal thank you next one was the jonathan holly that thank you mr chairman and which with your indulgence i would like just to update this council on the work of the street works task force which did meet for a fourth time on the 27th of september a key outcome of that meeting not referenced on page 66 of the report under my name is that the 14 utility providers present and also representatives of this council agreed to talk to the gla about a new online tool mapping service so that all works as a one-stop shop concept can be found in one place going forward i believe that would be useful to residents it would be useful to the utility providers and critical to this council as well that was agreed at that meeting and we are agreeing further on further progress and could i finally thank amanda richards who is the deputy director for transport for her work in chairing this task force good work done more to do thank you rebecca paul thank you chair my question is for councilor curran um so we we all know that one of the first things that labor government has decided to do is to put uh 20 vat on independent school fees so i'm deeply concerned about this i know many of my residents are concerned about this i'm particularly concerned about the impact on our state schools this is happening mid-year in january 2025 it could potentially put a great deal of pressure on our state schools which is good for no child in education at the moment so my question um to councilor curran is has the council assessed the impact of this potential influx of students into the state system and can we be updated on all of that on a divisional basis please thank you would you like to reply yes thank you um and if i may uh refer councilor paul also to the uh response i gave to the question asked by um councilor subden as she may be aware the secondary school admissions window is open and the team are closely monitoring the um additional number if any um of admissions to secondary school and will do so for um for primary schools and i have also checked with our um admissions teams and between june and september we've received 161 in-year admissions that's separate from the the normal transfer um transfers at key stages um but yes the the team are definitely working in uh to assess this working in partnership with um our independent school providers across the county and um we will be able to share some information although i'm not sure and i could undertake for that to be done on a divisional basis thank you chairman eberkinton reference in his report to highways communication unfortunately time ran out in members questions and i was unable to ask for supplementary in his reply to the specific case i referred the cabinet member has obviously been advised that the painting of the yellow line parking restriction was prioritized and consequently it was completed in early october i can tell him that as of 6 pm yesterday they were not would he kindly communicate with his source of information and confirm the new expected date of completion for me thank you thank you uh chair thank you as the kingston yes um i will speak to the team and get you a revised date for those yellow lines jordan thank you i'd like to ask the cabinet member for property waste and infrastructure counselor bramel about the new location for the temporary library in redhill i understand from the answer the question which i posed earlier that the temporary library will be needed until the middle of next year but its current location consort house is going to have a new lease from the end of this month um can she confirm whether the library will remain in consort house with with the new owners or leases or whatever um or whether there's going to be a move somewhere else and let us know where it is so that everyone is knowing in good time as to where the library will will be and and presumably we will continue to have a seamless service provided from the current location to the new if it's moving thank you thank you uh thank you counselor bart i'm happy to pick up with you outside of the meeting on the rivalry school application and um as a fellow redhill uh divisional counselor counselor essex you can assure i can assure you that the library is top of my list uh to get delivered so uh yes it will move from consort house and it will be located in in the center of redhill we're just make waiting for something to be signed off but it's even nearer to the center of redhill than than consort house um and uh it will move and then hopefully the new tenant will come into console house once it's finished once the new building's finished with the relevant um upgrades and access um open all hours access or whatever it's called um super access and uh i can assure you i'm sure it will really really help and provide um more space for uh people who have been displaced from the closure of the hierarchy council thank you thank you just a question for the cabinet member for highways and relations report on the point about highest communication i was recently pleased to see that the highest communication has been supplemented by the cabinet member himself popping up in my local facebook group to talk about drain clearances um but i was somewhat surprised to see an announcement better that things like drains which hadn't been cleared for years should be funded out of the divisional maintenance budget so i'd just like to ask as a supplement as a question as to whether he feels that seven and a half thousand pounds per member per year is sufficient to clear all the drains across the county thank you chair rather tenuous connection to the uh the report but um the particular case that you reference i was not happy with the highway's response that was given to your residence hence why i did step in i did not feel it was correct i've spoken to the team they agree with my assessment and revised communications will be going out to your residents we have as i said increased by around sort of five million the amounts to deal with not only the the clearance of our gullies but also to tackle any backlog of defects the point i was making about using your local allocation is it allows you to quickly get this done there are particular gangs that we have funded through the task and finish if you refer to the email i sent all members in august who can actually come through their purpose is to do this extra work so there is a huge central resource but you can also supplement it with your existing your existing allocation thank you chair i have no oh ashley tilling uh thank you chair it's in relation to the report tabled by councillor backs on highways and particularly weed spraying program we're still waiting for some of the streets in umbridge to be sprayed this is october they haven't been sprayed all year this includes in the leaders division i have to have to listen to that um is there an issue then with the poor timeliness of placing contracts for weed spraying as there was for cutting the verges last year and it's the contracted process contracting process under review to prevent these delays in future and finally given our commitment to the un sustainability goals that we debated last october can we explore using non-glyphosate weed killers such as foam stream which is used in some other councils around the uk um i thank council tilling for that yes there's definitely an issue at the moment in in elmbridge the weed spray has been completed in 10 of the 11 boroughs but not yet in elmbridge unfortunately the contractor had made a later than a later start than i would have liked in elmbridge has now been thwarted by the wet weather thus it's not completely finished this is something that obviously we're looking to improve for next year and it's under review at the moment to see whether we can bring forward the weed spray which i hope we we can do potentially even add a second spray um i know council tilling has written to me about the use of um glysophate and we've also provided him with a response from officers which shows the comparison in cost between glysophate and the alternative options which are considerably more expensive so at the moment glysophate remains our best option obviously we're open to looking at other things but that does seem to be the way forward at the moment i'm happy to pick up with council tilling and other colleagues afterwards if you have any other questions robert king uh thank you chair will the cabinet members for highways be communicating around the recent changes to the its scheme award to include a lack of duplicates a year's bidding round on divisions he recently effectively vetoed my its scheme scoring the highest in the independent panel's discussion for a neighboring ward and there was no communication directly to me i wonder if you could explain that to my residents of why that happened something you thank you chair we just seem to be continuing the members questions now um what i would say i'm very sorry council king that i didn't communicate directly with you about that change um what i was trying to do was to be fair you were successful in the its scheme last year i didn't think it would be fair for you to have two years running when other counselors had submitted their own bids and another scheme is is just as deserving we will be changing the criteria for the the its we are seeing a huge number of pedestrian crossings being prioritized which is showing that other schemes which is not a pedestrian crossing deliverability are being missed out so we are seeing if we can actually vary it rural areas are also struggling to get their its bids put in because often they do not connect up to pavements for cycleways and such so are missing out on the scoring there all members should have been written to now by the highways team alerting whether you are successful or not as successful with your technical assessment and once we have a agreed a new way forward we will be going to the select committee with our recommendations for the future uh scoring criteria uh for the its schemes going forward thank you chair we have three minutes left but we must emphasize that we must stick to the report uh council sergeant thank you chairman a follow-up to um the deputy cabinet minister per highway a member for highways and steve backs following on from mr tilling council back indicated there may be um a second weed spraying if necessary who's going to decide that how will it be funded and what's the process for making that happen thank you um thank you for the question uh obviously this is something that the cabinet is looking at at the moment uh i know what i would like to happen but there needs to be further discussions and uh and i imagine it will be announced in due course in the usual way thank you john o'reilly thank you chairman and my question is also the same subject to steve backs as ashley tilling and mark sullen has just raised i want be grateful if steve steve backs could give the assurance that though the spraying in elmbridge has indeed been delayed right across the borough that it will happen this year it's not going to be put off until sometime in 2025 in other words something with this work will be done and done soon um yes i can confirm to councillor o'reilly that the this raid will happen um it was suggested to me um that it had been uh left quite late which i agree it has been um and now we're into the the wet weather is it worth doing um but i do feel that it is still worth doing um there are quite a few streets in elmbridge where the the weeds have been allowed to um get a bit out of control and i personally want to see them um addressed as quickly as possible and it will be done as quickly as possible unfortunately that's the time up now if there's any other comments and questions and you can take them up with the relevant the camera members for deputy members i can throw off a statement by members i have received notice of three statements for members there was a timeline of two minutes per statement and these are put without discussion or reply i'll call on a councillor chris townsend to make his personal statement ashford youth centre is rather managed by the friends of ashford youth centre of charity they run it very well they have a youth club there other organizations and local charities use it and it's very successful the money we receive from those local organizations and charities helps to maintain the youth service at that particular center i think that he's happening in a number of youth centers across the county and now we're being told that they are being the buildings are being taken back into surrey when the communication was given by relevant surrey staff they were asked how this was going to happen and they didn't know they didn't know how this was going to happen that's caused considerable concern to the people that run the service the organizations that are involved in ashford youth youth youth center and many other centers across surrey it appears to be that the communication has been really poor if there are plans they don't sort of be very good hands and they're not being communicated very well so the communication is poor the actual consultation with those organizations is nil absolutely none so it's a real mess and it's not very well uh endowed from from from a surrey point of view i want to add one thing before i finish i spoke to the leader yesterday morning on this subject with some other information that concerns me deeply about what's going on he assured me and he agreed with me that he would put a halt to what is actually currently going on so that we can find out which centers are doing what whether they're open or not whether they are being used or not or closed and then we can actually go forward in a positive way to ensure our young people and those centers are used properly by everyone chair i feel the responsibility still to my residents to give this statement despite significant discussion already today here are a few examples of one week's emails on send in my division child a autistic child in a mainstream secondary school without an ehcp school are doing their absolute best child is now suffering from anxiety and heart palpitations and needs assessment started school submits evidence result no to assess information from the school did not arrive in time for the panel to consider mediation recommended and accepted mediation decision no to assess upheld as no further evidence have been submitted from the school has anyone actually looked at the information from the school the parents asked i've asked no response today child b diagnosis of asd hyperactivity and no sense of danger in 2022 limited speech currently in year three in a mainstream primary the ehcp has identified specialist provision now regularly being suspended for hitting staff other children and even the school cat consultation with three specialist schools parents chased the case officer in july and then in september was advised the consultation had been unsuccessful two years still no progress child c started in nursery was attending full-time ended up in tribunal parents case accepted final ehcp for a specialist provision but they accepted a high coin unit in a local school as the parents preference but it's still with the tribunal team the child will miss the whole the first term of school is this a full list from a week no is this a particularly bad week no are some of these things happening because of central government yes but not everything we must work together break down the silos to resolve these issues please i call on joanne sexton to make her statement thank you today i would like to share a message from a resident about the vital role of ashford youth club post-covid it has been a lifeline offering a safe space for anxious families and helping children thrive the resident praised the club for its impact after the pandemic it opened during the day welcoming parents and their children to engage in the community garden both their children attended the free youth programs which boosted their confidence at a time when anxiety was very high the funding from building rentals allowed these programs to run without cost which was a huge relief for many struggling families however the resident is now deeply concerned about the club's future there's talk of the building being reclaimed and uncertainty over whether families will have to pay for activities she feels left out of the decision-making process despite being told that her views matter from this council ashford youth club has been informed that adolescent services now require the building for their use with limited hours available for the youth club that have confirmed that they will give some financial support to cover the loss for the activities for young people that would have been paid for via the hiring of the building other youth providers across our county have been told that this is being driven by land and property who are reclaiming these buildings which one is it the current arrangement was established as part of a youth work strategy now changed sorry this current regime was established partly strategy approved by the council in 2019 from what i understand that that strategy has now changed this raises serious concerns as the government has expressed the desire for increased thank you thank you thank you thank you chair item 13 is the original motion we have 90 minutes for deliberating this i have received notice of two original motions yeah first one is standing in this in the name of steve mccormick under section order 12.3 council has to decide if it wishes to debate this motion today does the council wish to debate the motion now members an email was circulated this morning with an updated proposed alteration by steve mccormick to motion 13 one understanding order 20.3 or standing in his own name published in the second supplementary agenda pages four to five please disregard the alteration published yesterday council must now agree to this alteration order for it to be debated i'll be agreed agreed steve can you please move your motion you have six minutes thank you chair and thank you members for allowing this motion to come forward today i'd just like to say that i wasn't trying to get the record for a number of changes additions and deletions i can assure you um my thanks to democratic services amelia and vicki for helping with these changes i bring the motion to his council following an issue in epsom and you're related to moped delivery riders riding on and parking on the pavement outside several fast food outlets on epson high street other county and borough members and i have received numerous items of concern from impacted residents and business owners i've also received a plea from the managers swell house and epson that offers supported housing for blind and partially sighted people the mopeds and bikes on the pavement provides a very difficult obstacle course for the blind and partially sighted trying to make their way around epson the problems don't have a silver bullet solution and options to resolve and progress fall to several agencies a recent interview by bbc sorry spoke with myself and counselor eva kington on the problem interviewer then reached out to the delivery companies and for around a week there were no bikes on the pavement delivery companies can speak and communicate with their riders restaurants and fast food outlets can speak and communicate with riders coming in to pick up the deliveries sorry can the council can and does provide parking enforcement which when officers appear the bikes disappear as if by magic only to return later after the officers leave the area sorry police can enforce certain aspects but having an officer on site for prolonged periods is not practical epson newborough council has some enforcement power here again but officers attend bikes disappear or need to reappear later most recently we pulled together a multi-agency meeting at epson with several of these stakeholders in attendance following a very proactive meeting several action points to progress were agreed my thanks to sorry officers for attending and arranging and thanks to steve backs for taking the time to join listen and contribute much of this motion is around highlighting the issue and suggesting proactive steps to take forward with various stakeholders and agencies lead where sorry counting council can support when helpful to get things done and cooperate where working together makes for a better workable solution thank you members i move this motion thank you chair yes i'm very happy to second this motion and thank you to council cloick for his time last week and yesterday in crafting some amendments which i feel will allow us to work with the other agencies particularly sorry police who currently do hold the enforcement powers for parking on and driving over pavement it is not a an issue here that is limited to epson and mule it does happen across the county across the country even where we do have this rise in home delivery points so i'm very happy to support that we should use the the authorities clouds to convene to talk to the companies they are the ones that are responsible for their employees and the actions that their employees take therefore we should be engaging with them and sorry police is the enforcement authority so i'm very happy to second this motion thank you speaking to the debate now speakers please thank you chairman um i think this is a very timely motion this is an issue that has been blighting many of our communities indeed i spoke recently in our local town center to a number of disabled and partially sighted individuals who have really struggled to navigate the town center because of the obstruction that's being created this is also an issue as council furnace has said in other areas you've got some very alarming headlines in dartford nuisance food delivery drivers putting lives at risk ignoring no entry signs driving in pedestrian areas and through alleyways in ealing they've taken a multi-agency approach as he's being advocated in this motion where the council and delivery of joint forces to run road shows and events and speaking to the the riders to educate them but also looking at their safeguarding because you know you have some unlicensed vehicles you have human trafficking there's all sorts of sort of undertones to some of this activity so it's really important that we grip this collectively and i would hope that actually our trading standards team could actually assist here because actually by bringing this issue to to the forefront of making it something that we're all aware of all concerned about and all determined to tackle makes makes the solution even more achievable so i'm really happy to support this motion thank you poor fellows thank you mr chairman and also just to rise in support of this motion obviously there are areas in surrey this is more impactful than others those of us in the more rural parts of surrey don't get this issue anywhere near as much but i think it's important that we recognize the variation of this issue across the county can i also just thank the proposer for agreeing to the reasonable changes to this book to this motion to ensure that enforcement is in the right place and do sit with the people that actually have powers to do these things i think it's a an excellent motion a timely motion and again thank you for your changes trevor hogs again i wish to speak in support of this motion it's a plague in camberly and extremely dangerous with the amount of riding on footpaths and down alleyways that are made for pedestrians not vehicles making it life extremely dangerous particularly in the evenings when it's dark and where the local police have intervened they've found many of the drivers are uninsured unlicensed with multiple people using the same bike at different times of the evening so i very much support that we actually take action on this and work with the establishments that are employing these people to get this on the control john fanatics thank you i fully support this motion it's a real problem in redsville and it's a problem we need to address it feels at the moment lots of people doing things on their own but unless we come together and do things together and differently it's not going to happen not going to work and i think we need to change what normal practice is and my concern really is but if we just focus on the training the behavior change then we aren't providing the different infrastructure the different places to really sort this out i think we need to have those different locations that that we encourage most motorcycles and other delivery drivers to pick up because i understand the problem it goes something like this you know you get an app and those that are closest to that store are the ones that get the pickup job so currently it feels like the apps are designed to cause problems for us and our residents so as well as the motion the stuff in this motion i really hope that we can agree this you unanimously and then use it as a platform to go far and beyond what's sat out here for example what i'd like maybe is to call on government to require these apps like liveroo and just just eats that the driver use to prioritize the award of food collection to drivers that sit in designated areas clearly that's not happening so we could you know designate an area and and we might find drivers don't go there so i think that you know we all need to work together on surrey on this but i think there there's an opportunity here for us to take this case highlight to the government and let's join up the dots that don't just exist here but exist with these companies too thank you david harmer thank you chairman i'm very supportive of this motion but i i am concerned that we don't restrict our thoughts about it to motorcycles as it happens yesterday afternoon at going home time i was with the road safety outside schools team and we stood on a corner as it happened outside a a take-home facility and and while we were there quite brazenly you know despite the fact that clearly highway's officers standing there with me a vehicle a delivery vehicle just rolled up and parked outside against the wishes of the land as a shop owner they told us as soon as they got away again and then treated the thing completely blocked the pavements made the children effectively forced to go in other places well be less safe i thought they were and colleagues weren't disagreeing with me and so i think we just need to make sure that we don't cause the motorcycles which are the urban solution and to cause what we've already got in the countryside which is big vans calling up outside these places and just behaving as that part of the road catching pole i'd also like to speak in support of the motion and and hopefully we will be able to take this issue which i think is universally recognized and address it for the new brightwell's development in farnham where the land is under the control of surrey county council in the main in terms of where the restaurants will be and obviously it's part of a public highway and already you know we are seeing cars pulling up onto pavements that are associated with an existing delivery company and we have far more to come so i very much support the motion and look forward to the challenges of opening a new shopping center being addressed as a matter of urgency thank you george thank you i'd like to join the cause of support for the motion i'm not going to repeat anything that's already been said um but i would like to raise two further points which are that what has been noticeable in gilford town centre when i've been out there in the evenings is the significant worsening of the problem particularly with delivery drivers parking in disabled phase and in the evenings and things of that nature which happens to even place even place where we've got the enforceable enforceability of things like the same parking bays and waiting restrictions the challenge we encounter is that since the centralization of on-street parking enforcement there are no enforcement officers to be seen so i think it's very important in addition to passing this motion that we also resource parking enforcement enforce restrictions that do exist i'd also like to suggest and ask the cabinet that perhaps a further subsequent piece of work could be to consider the possibility of introducing a bylaw to prohibit pavement parking as some other councils have done around the count around the country to enable enforcement officers to find motorist parking on pavements whereas at the moment the only enforcement that exists is through the police who quite understandably generally speaking have higher priorities to focus on than simply a delivery driver parking on a pavement for 20 minutes thank you i have three more speakers and i think we've one a day on this one rachel lake thank you mr chairman um yes i support the motion but i support the motion to be slightly expanded so anyone that's considering anything on it in walton on tens my drivers two of us have the high street counselor ashley tilling and myself we have one road which is on my side they do park in a parking area however the overhang over a narrowed pavement because of the width of the road is such as it goes onto the high street that during the day they park there but their overhang of boxes completely goes over the pavement and i've been told there's absolutely nothing i can do i can't put rails there i can't put bollards there so i'm looking for a solution so the bike drivers have been relatively compliant they are parking across the parking bay but the overhang is incredible but another thing that does anger me with delivery drivers and most of them are on larger vans is yes they pull up on the pavement but it's when they throw a disabled badge in the window they jump out their van they walk really quickly they deliver their parcel and they're back in again and i know we say disabilities i actually have a disabled bag are not always visible but the amount of large delivery vans with disabled bag badges does seem to be overwhelming and that is something that we maybe could have an impact on thank you chair i just want to put a bit of context because home delivery has important benefits for the local economy for local employment and consumer choice but of course like all these things there are these difficulties and that's what we're talking today although the high street epson doesn't lie within my division it lies within the main shopping center of epson newell and in june in june the growing number of motorcycle delivery drivers driving onto the footway meant it was the most common concern raised with me in my division so i raised it with the highways team and as i moved up the chain of command i kept receiving emails listing the reasons why nothing effective could be done and effectively not why nothing would be done so i brought the matter for the last council meeting with a question to the cabinet member who did agree to set up a meeting of representatives of affected parties unfortunately one month on from that council meeting no meeting had been discussed let her arranged but i'm pleased to say that my colleague county councilor stephen mccormack did set up a meeting in september with the stated intention of finding solutions rather than give excuses i think that those who attended the meeting including sari county council epson newell borough council representatives of business and residents and felt it was positive and went away with actions to take information to provide and partners to work with on specific issues and to ensure progress made at that meeting is not lost county councilor stephen mccormack aimed to put as many of those positive solutions into his motion now whilst i accept that some of the terminology needed amending the wholesale rewrite and removal of anything that seems like hard work for sorry county council is disappointing as it is illuminating for example how hard is it for so sorry county council to work with takeaway outlets local landowners the borough and district councils to identify identify sites with designated parking areas close to the high street where motorcycles can be left secure but there it is at least the ra and indian group have forced sorry county council to take this issue seriously we've come up with the local partnerships and the links that sorry counter council can work with if they choose and crucially we've selected suggested solutions i shall vote for the motion and if it's in past i will ensure that epson your residents are made aware that at last sorry county council is talking about solutions and seeking positive ways forward on this issue thank you chair final speaker is robert king sorry um i look forward to when all takeaway meals are delivered by drones which will make me which will make this make this motion obsolete and if it can be extended to parcels that will allay all the fears that counselor lake raised okay uh counselor steve call up your right to reply thank you chair um thank you members for all of your comments and feedback um it is good to raise the issue and to hear that this problem isn't just um centered around epson manure there have been some some really really useful items here this is the start point it's not um it's not the the be-all and end-all it's a start point and i note that there are several comments being made around safeguarding which is a strong concern and strong issue um which we can take forward off the back of that the having different locations for motorcycle pickup we can pick that up as part of this particular item um there's a comment made about enforcement officers not being available they are available they do respond but when they do respond the bikes just disappear and the the other item is about you know i want us to basically work collaboratively with all members of this council regardless of political affiliation to try and achieve a positive outcome for our residents which i think what this motion is starting to do is going to actually do so i thank members for their input and for their support and i put this motion thank you i'll take everyone in agreement of this motion thank you um second motion is standing in the name of mark newton um under section order 12.3 council has to decide the wishes to debate this motion today does the council wish to debate now mark yeah yeah you know thank you thank you chair and thank you members and before i start i just want to say a quick thank you to officer phil austin reed who was instrumental in introducing the good company to sarah county council and and making this motion happen so poverty is a harsh word poverty is complex there knows no barriers it takes hold when you're unaware it traps you in a cycle that seemingly can't be broken and poverty means many things to many people financial hardship homelessness lack of education unemployment to name but a few but there is a common theme that flows for all of this and that's the feeling of isolation the feeling that you're on your own but there's no hope no matter how hard you work or how little you spend so i ask you today to support this motion to take the pledge to do what we can as a council to continue the work to mitigate and prevent poverty and inequalities that exist in our communities but i also ask you all to take a personal pledge to look at how in your own lives you can make a difference what do we do that keeps people in poverty the simple act for example of paying a window cleaner on time could be the difference between a business that's able to thrive and support a family to a business that struggles with cash flow leaving a family unable to pay bills and spiraling into debt and into poverty so if we use local and buy local it could be as simple as just paying a small bill on time the good company believe that collaboration is the key to preventing people from falling into poverty and supporting people to move out of poverty they've seen the positive impact the joined up approach can have poverty doesn't recognize a specific time of the year but winter is particularly tough for many families especially the elderly with the new government's decision to withdraw the winter fuel allowance from so many households who received it last year coinciding with the increase in the energy price cap many of our residents will be facing difficult decisions possibly to heat or eat now surrey county council is doing its best to help our fuel poverty program has won a grant of nearly a million pounds from the southern gas network which continues its work in supporting vulnerable residents last year we helped 570,000 households with winter resilience planning last winter approximately 46,000 residents accessed one of our 43 warm hubs across the county unfortunately this year we're expecting that number to grow the surrey crisis fund gives last resort financial help to over 2,000 residents every year over 86,000 households were provided support from the household support fund last year and again that number is likely to increase of course this is an opportunity to also thank much of the good work that goes on in and around our communities from the volunteer sector and our charitable partners but we can all help by being clear clear it stands for communicating with our communities listening to understand the issues having empathy good agency by signposting but also for all of us to be aware of the help that is available and how that help can be given but above all else respecting the individual no one wants to live in poverty i started this by saying that poverty is a harsh word well it is and it is for a reason and i asked a good company whether that word should be used and they said yes let's face facts because people do live in poverty even in 2024 poverty is not nice but we also know that it is the catalyst that so often leads to mental ill health physical ill health and impacts on so many including our young so let's join together to sign this pledge to end poverty and make sure no one is left behind thank you chair motion seconded by bernie muir do you wish to second this now or speak now yeah poverty is a reality in surrey which i know only too well having court ward in epson i signed the poverty pledge developed by the good company as chair of the health and well-being board and here's some of the headlines from that health and well-being paper we will encourage a focus on poverty in the surrey system through the health and well-being strategy priority populations including the key neighborhoods plus the issues identified in the joint strategic needs assessment and the health and well-being strategic index we provide effective local funding and allocation of resources plus advocating for closer collaboration between organizations and nationally for changes in national policy and strategy that we see impacting negatively at a local level we will listen to those with lived experience of poverty to build relationships and co-design and co-produce solutions and encourage shifting power to communities so that they lead from the front we also support the bcse sector to maintain its capacity to support those in poverty we will value advocate for and promote asset-based community for development and health creation we will support the cross-system cost of living partnership group and advocate for other system boards to share resources across the system to address the needs of those in or at risk of poverty we will ensure opportunities for organizations to share best practice the good companies epson advice cafe and the epson pantry are two very important providers making a real difference with this pledge the good company is striving to get all stakeholders to work together to provide coherent solutions i'd finish with a statement a few words from ben's story having worked since he was 12 he was out of work due to ill ill health apart from financial implications his identity and feelings of wealth were impacted initially he didn't know where to seek help and then had to summon up the courage to ask for it how terrible is he said to go to someone and say i can either pay for the electric or i can feed my family you have to do it there's no choice but it doesn't make it easier to suddenly find yourself not in discomfort but in real fear that you are not going to be able to feed your family is terrifying all it takes is for one bad thing to happen and your life could be turned upside down he said it can't if you can't pay the rent one month it's a bad situation and it gets bad very quickly recent crises have severely increased the number of people and families in real trouble and by working together agencies and third sector can bring about effective solutions so i urge you to accept this motion and sit to sign the pledge i understand there is a amendment to this motion uh proposes lance spencer lance spencer do you wish to move your amendment thank you mr chair uh first of all i fully support this motion and i've received very good feedback about the good company it's one of many voluntary and charity organizations that support those most in need across sorry so i asked microsoft co-pilot which is an artificial intelligence service to tell me what surrey county council could do to reduce poverty in surrey and i'm going to read it out exactly exactly as it came out within i think there's three seconds despite our county's reputation for affluence there are hidden pockets of deprivation where families struggle to make ends meet it is imperative that surrey county council takes more robust actions to support these residents firstly we must acknowledge the significant strides already made by the council initiatives such as the surrey crisis fund the household support fund have provided essential relief to many however the rising cost of living particularly in housing food and energy demands a more comprehensive and sustained approach one of the most effective ways to combat poverty is through targeted financial support the council should expand its direct funding to community-based projects that address immediate needs such as food banks warm hubs and any energy advice services by increasing the allocation to those vital services we can assure that no family goes hungry or cold this winter the council should enhance its collaboration with local charities and community organizations these groups are often on the front lines providing direct support for those in need by working together we can create a more coordinated and effective response to poverty this includes better signposting between services tailored advice and more effective targeting of hardship funds finally we must foster a sense of community and solidarity poverty is not just a financial issue it is a social one by empowering communities and encouraging local initiatives we can build a more inclusive and supportive environment for all residents this means listening to those affected by poverty and involving them in the decision-making process in conclusion while surrey county council has made commendable efforts for sport residents in poverty there is still much more to be done by expanding financial support investing in long-term solutions enhancing education collaborating with local organizations and fostering community solidarity we can make a significant impact let us work together to ensure that no one in surrey is left behind so that's what artificial intelligence had in mind i thought that was spot on so then i went to surrey website and asked similar sort of questions to get some information from the website as of february 2024 26 191 households in surrey were on universal credit and included children this has increased 9.7 in the last year alone over the last two years the number of single-parent households on universal credit has risen by 31 percent whilst the number of households on universal credit with children and adult couples has risen by 10 during the 2023-24 school year there were 22 714 pupils in state-funded schools in surrey known to be eligible for free school meals the percentage of children in surrey schools who are eligible for preschool meals has increased by 71 percent in the last five years from 8.6 percent in 2018-19 to 14.7 in 2023-24 rates are higher in certain schools 62 percent of pupils in state-funded alternative provision schools were eligible for free school meals and nearly 40 percent in special schools this is compared to the around 14 percent of pupils eligible for free school meals in state-funded primary and secondary schools that's the real poverty coming through seen in our children so this isn't just the parents this is the children suffering we all know at the both county and borough and district levels the funds directly available to support families are not keeping up with the demand and in many cases as in my home borough of woking where this is not a statutory requirement all funding has stopped for all local charities in woking they don't get a penny they're not allowed to spend a penny on any of these types of services this means that the voluntary and charity sectors are the only means to support many of these families and children in the absence of direct funding sorry county council must fill the gap in supporting the voluntary and charity sectors so i commend the amendment to this motion to ensure that the funds for these organizations are not reduced during the coming budget process seconded by as a watson do you wish to speak now or okay uh thank you chairman i am second the amendment i believe that one of the most important functions of the county council is to provide help and support for the most disadvantaged sorry residents it's often the voluntary organizations working at local level that provide that help and support to make a real difference during the last year i've worked with the county council's mole valley lead community link officer michelle bradley and a small group of local residents in box hill to help those residents who are isolated and disadvantaged the outcomes were firstly a get-together event in september at the village hall with stalls provided by organizations such as citizens advice christians against poverty and the good neighbor scheme this event brought the services to the village where there are many people who are not online secondly a warm welcome which will be held weekly as a doctor surgery from 7th of november to the end of march which will provide hot drinks soup and rolls advice on benefits and electric blankets activities will also be provided thirdly a counter council online and hard copy survey of the village to obtain the views of residents and what they want and need has been carried out the analysis of the results is currently being done given the excellent work of michelle bradley to support this work i think that it would be appropriate for the chairman of the council or the chief executive to write to her to thank her for her excellent work finally given the crucial work that the voluntary organizations play in helping the most disadvantaged sorry residents and promoting social inclusion it is vital that the county council does not reduce funding for the for them in the 25 26 budget as they would be that would be a step in the wrong direction thank you change are you wanted to accept an amendment the amendment is now open for debate two speakers leader thank you very much chair can i suggest to mr spencer that he might invite his friend ai to join our select committee where he can hear some human voices from officers and members about what they think we should do around addressing poverty this this motion is simply setting the scene it's it's highlighting the fact that we know that there are extensive areas pockets of deprivation in this county and are genuinely people that are are suffering our news has already raised the issue of the winter fuel allowance and we know that we have the household support fund only for a further six months unless the government extends it we have the saudi crisis fund and all the things that lance spencer has read out so yeah we know what we need to do we know where the money needs to go i can't commit this council not prepared to commit this council to top slicing the budget for next year at the end of the day we have to first of all address our statutory responsibilities to fund children with special education needs and disabilities adult social care even highways they are our statutory responsibilities i i did suggest and through uh paul follows a group leader that that we would agree to a wording which said something along the lines of we would look to protect the funding of organizations that we work with but i simply cannot and will not give a cast line guarantee that without even naming what who those organizations are what it is that we should be ensuring that there's no reduction of there is as i said earlier in my speech i think an active conversation with the voluntary sector who we do absolutely value and depend upon to help us deliver the vital services that we deliver to our most vulnerable residents and we will continue to have those conversations but at the end of the day all of that will have to go into the mix as we discuss the budget and i would encourage any of you that wish to speak to the draft budget to attend the november cabinet meeting when no doubt we can discuss it further but in the meantime i'm afraid i will be opposing the amendment thank you chair speaking and support of the amendment and also to thank councilor spencer as well for commenting on the severe choices members in boroughs and districts have had to made who have inherited financially challenged councils we know in running need the challenge we have faced now woking is unable to support for example the citizens advice because it's financial problems and our team at adalston particularly have had to take up a number of cases from residents the importance of partnering with voluntary organizations is they can often provide additional services that boroughs and districts and indeed county authorities cannot in skills and expertise that's why indeed our borough running need has undertaken a review going forward to our budget in terms of what the borough can provide best and indeed the voluntary sector and putting appropriate funding in place for that i would also stress the importance of county partnering but with boroughs and districts as we come to set our council tax and indeed our council tax support system it's really noted there is a number of boroughs and districts within surrey are already providing 100 relief for council taxpayers and that's really welcome it's a ridiculous situation where councils are taking people to court for underpayment of council tax because they simply cannot afford it and it is costing the district more money than actually offering them the support in uh in the initial place i to speak in favor of this as we go forward to the budget setting agenda and also to encourage this county authority as soon as it receives the household support funding from central government to pass it as quickly as possible onto districts and boroughs who are at the front line of delivering this funding to our residents thank you thank you chair um i would like to speak in support of this motion as well this council relies heavily on the support from the third sector which are closely connected to the communities that they serve often with a wealth of volunteers often drawn directly from that community we have already seen real cuts to their support from surrey with organizations seeing little to no inflationary rises and this is something that is often mentioned in the children families and lifelong learning and culture select committee without this commitment to no reduction in funding we will see further creeping cuts to the budgets of these amazing organizations which will be devastating these organizations are often very lean with the majority of their funding sometimes as much as 80p to 90p in every pound going direct towards the support of our communities their workforce costs are usually very low and conversely their impact is high often however they need some consistency and security of what future funding they will receive so that they can plan appropriately and so that they can um without this guarantee i'm very concerned that we will see the further contraction of their services and the contraction of this critical support for our residents far from being clear of the organizations this amendment clearly states it is those organizations that mitigate and prevent poverty in surrey and it is asking this council to review any changes proposed for the budgets in 25 26 so it is asking for this to be reviewed i very much support this amendment and i would urge other councillors to do so as well thank you how about two more speakers jonathan essex thank you i agree with the work of the poverty truth commission and jonathan lee's um who have initiated this pledge and recognize that poverty has become an entrenched and embedded part of our society after a decade of austerity the use of food banks unheard of back in 2010 has become a necessity and a lifeline for many the pledge calls us to ensure that all in our community should be able to afford life's essentials and that those struggling financially should receive respect and compassion and for all of us as a community to help tackle poverty so that's why i support this amendment because if we are going to respond to that with an action plan it must be financed to help the community as this need is deepening and still rising we need to make sure that any commitments we make in words are backed up in practice and we don't have a commitment that takes with one hand as it gives with the other but this isn't called a community help those already in poverty pledge we're asking ourselves to sign up to an end poverty pledge pledge so in doing so i really urge that we do two things firstly we address the direct needs now to support those already deep in need which the the text of the pledge urges us to do but secondly we respond to the actual words of the pledge we're we're urging ourselves to sign as our health and well being board has already signed that that we actually set out what it would be to end poverty and sorry that's no mean thief but unless we undertake that challenge then signing this pledge will be something we do in word only it will be seen as a hollow empty gesture we need to make sure that retrofit to address energy poverty that is a key to unpicking the cost of living crisis is addressed because that's become normalized for many we need to make sure that genuinely affordable housing including on our own land is dealt with is provided in sufficient amounts to address what is no longer a housing crisis but an emergency for many we need to make sure that our two pound maximum local bus fares are normalized and aren't taken away which would make things worse for many in those pockets of poverty in what is a rich county those are just a few thoughts from me but i really hope that we grapple with this properly not sign up for something so so to deal with the the problems without actually focusing on the wider challenge which is to face up to the root causes thank you last speaker this is Paul Follis thank you Mr Chairman just a few points firstly i agree completely with Jonathan Essex that to do to do this without putting in some actual practical action does feel a bit hollow and at one point i was actually thinking of not supporting this motion back when it was being discussed within my group because i thought that actually signing up to the pledge actually implied that you would then go and cut things to do with supporting people in poverty i thought that was an actual it would be mad to do that considering you just signed a pledge to not just do what you're doing now but to go further and end it but i actually do think we need to pass this amendment because as many of you who have been involved in budget processes in councils know full well firstly council being sovereign can bind the budget process there was an inference in a few speeches that that wasn't possible it is but also because budgets are actually work the way they work is that there is a political direction set by the council and then officers go and work away to make that happen if you've not given that political direction how will your officers know that that's what you want them to do so this amendment is actually really saying put your money where your mouth is literally and fund this and agree that you're not going to cut these things and just going back on something that council Townsend mentioned we get very frustrated when we set council budgets that the government don't the government give us one year at a time settlements there are plenty of organizations in this sphere who aren't able to plan what they do because they're only given one year at a time from us and actually entering into multi-year SLAs is something that Townsend parishes do many boroughs do and we should do more of i know we do in some areas with some of these organizations but there should be some more planning about how we give them long-term security of funding and it just because we do everything one year because we have to doesn't mean we then have to pass that on to all of the other organizations that we support so from my point of view this is you giving a reasonable political steer to your officers that you want to make a firm financial commitment to this i don't think it needs to be a big song and dance and i don't think it needs to be particularly political it is just given that indication that you wish to give a steer to commit in practice to what the pledge you say you support is telling you to do and that is why i stand in favor of this amendment thank you mr chairman thank you chair and i don't know why i'm surprised where the the debate has gone but let me be very clear this is not a budget setting council meeting the pledge is exactly what it says it is which is a pledge to join the good company in understanding poverty and doing everything we can in everything that we do to mitigate poverty and the reasons for that and the equalities across council there are many things that we do that has not been mentioned today for our staff day in day out month in month out that we have done irrespective of this pleasure we continue to do we support our communities we give huge amounts of funding to our charities but we are not going to stand here and commit to just keep that funding to the same charities week in week out we review our charity work we work with them they're partners to us we look at where best the investment can go what better we can do to our communities just by carrying on the same as we do every other year is not going to get us anywhere investment needs to be returned this is public taxpayers money and we will use it the best we can with our partners for the best results for our public as it says in the statement as many of you who have asked it has asked officers to come up with an action plan for poverty to address the inequality act of 2010 and to make sure that that is there in all we do across the council and that will be in the equality assessment impact reports going forward so this is about us acknowledging the good company acknowledge not one person can eradicate poverty we work together we work as partnerships but we work as a collective across the land irrespective of politics we work together to eradicate this from the top all the way down from the boroughs and districts who i know seem so very hard done by these days for the county council up to national governments we work together that's a very strange concept for a lot of people in this room but we do and that's why this poverty pressure is brought to us not to become political not to segregate us even further but to join together to work together to try and do the best we can with what we've got lance spencer you'll reply in three minutes i love the concept of working together but after three and a half years on the council i have to say i find it extremely difficult to find a way to work together with some of the members here i was until recently a debt agent for christians against poverty where i work with individuals who are in deep long-term and irreversible debt it is horrifying it is just a terrible experience the things that those people are going through i did receive alternative work a wording from the party opposite but in my view it simply watered down the commitment to make it a pointless amendment so that's why i stuck with the wording i put there the wording asked for a review that no reduction only applies to organizations sorry county councils worked with to mitigate and prevent poverty in surrey is that such a big ask really i don't know how many organizations are i don't think it's a large number but where it does i think we should do that and the hard done by borough councils is a bit of a jibe really isn't it woking borough council is not a hard done by it's in 2.4 billion of debt it's not even a very able to give one pound to its local citizens advice bureau so it is a real problem and there are large number not as big as in some other areas but thousands of people in extreme debt that this is looking to support i really do think this is a sensibly worded amendment and should have been accepted by the opposition and would commend it to the members in this room regarding the amendment i'd like to take a vote all those in favor please raise your hand all those against please raise your hands any abstention for the amendment 22 against the amendment 34 abstention five so the amendment is not carried we now revert to the original motion and any any further debate on the original motion no that's fine i think we've had a good debate okay so all those in favor of the original motion i think substantial yeah so the motion is carried item 14 is feedback from the community's environment and highway select committee on preferred motion planet based meals pages 159 164 i call the proposal of the motion and vice chairman for the community's environment i would select the last Spencer to introduce the motion yes as it's half past one and we're all desperate to have lunch i'm going to talk about meat-free mondays so members i want to talk to you about a simple yet impactful initiative that is meat-free mondays this movement encourages people to skip meat just one day a week you might wonder what difference can one day make well let's explore some of the benefits first and foremost reducing meat consumption can significantly improve your health by opting for plant-based meals you can lower your risk of heart disease type 2 diabetes and certain cancers studies have shown that eating more vegetables beans nuts and whole grains can help maintain a healthy weight and promote overall well-being imagine the positive impact on your health if we all embrace this change even for just one day per week next let's consider the environment the production of meat is a major contributor to greenhouse gas emissions which drives climate change livestock farming uses vast amounts of land water and energy for instance producing just one quarter pound of beef burger sorry to talk about beef burgers while you're waiting for lunch but that's just the way it is requires 425 gallons of water by reducing our meat consumption we can conserve those precious resources and reduce our carbon footprint skipping meat one day a week might seem small but collectively can make a significant difference another important aspect is animal welfare the majority of our meat comes from factory farms where animals are kept in cramped in humane conditions and by choosing plant-based meals we can reduce the demand for meat and in turn the number of animals subjected to those conditions lastly thinking about global food security producing meat is an inefficient way to use our planet's resources it takes 12 kilograms of grain to produce one kilogram of beef and by eating less meat we can free up these grains to feed more people helping to combat hunger and malnutrition around the world in conclusion meat-free mondays offers numerous benefits for our health the environment animal welfare the economy and global food security it's a simple change that each of us can make and collectively it can lead to a healthier more sustainable future so let's embrace meat-free mondays and make a positive impact one meal at a time now i was motivated to bring this motion forward because i went to my one of my schools in my division working high school and they were having a day to discuss how to get more engagement of the students in climate issues and they came up with the idea of having a meat-free monday to encourage the school students to get more involved and think about climate on the 11th of july 2023 i brought this motion to council i was hoping the council might have an open debate on the subject and encourage more members to start thinking about climate change and how they might engage even more with their residents on this subject sadly as with many interesting motions that i've brought for council the motion was not debated at all but referred to the select committee it took until april 2024 for the uh motion to appear before the select committee after right after waiting for nine months i have to say the response from the officers was rather underwhelming but with the support of the cabinet member for the environment we did make some progress now i'm not going to go through all the responses they're in the document that came out today but that just pulled out one at the heart of the motion the motion asked the council to ensure that school meals services have a totally plant-based menu just one day per week ideally mondays the officer's response part of was to address this we suggest that schools define meat-free mondays through discussions and collaboration with families and students focusing on principles of healthy and sustainable eating this approach ensures inclusivity and fairness in the meat-free monday initiative whilst providing an opportunity for children particularly those with limited access at home to consume more fruits and vegetables support schools to develop school nutrition action groups snag as it's called as part of surrey healthy schools approach and widen student participation through initiatives such as peer champions basing schools to make informed decisions about food so the recommendations that came out from the select committee often much discussion in my view are a bit low-key but this is what they are the select committee noted number one the key points from the discussion of the motion as described in the report and the work underway to address the issues raised in the motion through finalization and implementation of a surrey whole system food strategy and secondly note that the strategy supports the surrey healthy schools approach and there's a focus on the three key strands addressing food insecurity reducing climate impact food system one second and supporting the local population to keep a healthy weight by enhancing the accessibility and affordability all right all right there's something i'll be saying at the time i'd like to commend the report to the council thank you the item is open for debate comments should relate to the report as per council agenda and not to reopen the debate i will not allow reopening of the debate thank you mr chairman i hadn't intended to speak of this but having read the report i would like to make a an appeal to sanity in one of the uh findings of the select committee it states here that the terminology plant-based should not be used as this could imply processed food which may not be healthy this is one of the most ludicrous uh things i've ever seen in my life um plant-based does not imply processed food but i would like to point out a few things which are processed food sausages pies pastry bacon ham um chicken slices a whole range of things are processed food but when we when i if i talk about meat-based food that could also imply processed but nobody says we must ban the terminology meat-based food simply because it may or may not be processed it is really disappointing that the caliber of the debate and discussion around such an important topic has evolved to such utterly pointless trivia such as trying to rule terms like plant-based as somehow being unacceptable surely we could all find a better thing to do of our times and things like that the the recommendations are on page 162 of the agenda are we agreed please raise your hand item 15 is the report of the cabinet pages 165 160 of the agenda i call the leader to present the report of the meetings of the cabinet held on 23rd july and 24th of september 2024. thank you chair just before i do that as this will be helen coons's last uh council meeting on behalf of uh sinead moody the cabinet member myself can i thank her for all of her hard work and in fact razor-like precision in getting us match fit for the cqc inspection and we will get the result of that in the very near future your motivation your communication with the service has indeed been exemplary so on behalf of all this thank you very much and we wish you every success in your future new adventures um chair on behalf of i move the cabinet reports of 23rd july and 24th september 2024 there are no reports of recommendations for the council reports of the information discussion 23rd july 2024 are called paragraph a and c paragraph a customer transformation paragraph b new draft vision zero road safety strategy and 20 mile speed limit policy paragraph c consort house red hill i call paragraph d quarterly report on decisions taken under special urgency arrangements third of july 2024 30 september 2024 the cabinet recommendations that the county council notes that there have been no urgent discussions since the last cabinet report for the council one discussion on the above the motion is that the report of the meeting with the cabinet held on 23rd of july and 24th september be adopted all agreed minutes of the cabinet meeting pages 169 to 190 of the agenda i now turn to the final item of the agenda today and no notification to make a statement question on the interest being received that concludes the meeting thank you members as always lunch has been provided in the committee room for those of you who wish to order them please follow staff instruction thank you

• Thank you. (audience laughing)